39. RFP Network Crossover Series Part 1: The 26 Letters Podcast

And here we go. This is the For Freedom Podcast, a podcast that's part of the RFP Network, that seeks to exhibit grace to those who have experienced legalism and abuse within the independent, fundamental, badness movement by pointing them to the Scriptures. Now, here's your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saver. And welcome everybody back to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host, John Holyfield, and I'm here with the other host, our co-host, Darth Saferit. How are you doing, James? There's one and only, John, one and only May the Fourth Be With You Day. And that's the day when we're recording it. And I'm glad to be known as Darth Saferit today. And it was really cool. One of the Charlotte Fire Departments did a Star Wars tribute. And they had all of their, they did some type of award. And all of the firefighters came out dressed as stormtroopers for this cadet they were honoring. And I guess he was a huge Star Wars fan. And so that was pretty cool to see and to be able to watch that. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I like that stuff. Star Wars fan and all that stuff. Waiting for some good stuff to come out in that arena. Thing's been going well over here. Had surgery this past week. Been recovering from that. And funny story, my wife was listening to the podcast the other day while she was cleaning. And my three-year-old son, Mason, was in the room. And he was just like listening. Like he heard my voice on her phone as she was doing work. And he kept saying, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy. No, Daddy, stop. I need to talk to you. Daddy, I need to talk to you. And then he just goes to Mary and he goes, oh, Daddy won't stop talking so I can talk to him. That is awesome. Yeah. So has your wife been listening to some of the episodes now, John? Yeah, she's finally starting to, she said she was going to try to catch up. So, John, my wife has finally started, jumped on the bandwagon and is listening as well. She said, what are some of your best episodes? And I'll listen to them. And I said, well, John, they're all, I said, Allie, they're all great. What do you mean which one's the best? Come on now. So I did, I did hit her to a couple of the, you know, my personal testimony and a couple of like Kyle Kinzer people she knew. And so that was pretty cool to, we sat there and listened as we were riding around the other day. So that was pretty, pretty fun for us. Awesome. Awesome. And, you know, we do our this week roundup, but it's been a pretty quiet week. You know, me and James have been busy. You know what, James, with being having surgery, I was stuck on a bed for a few days and I just watched like documentaries like crazy. Like I was, I was just taken into, I watched this one crazy documentary called Alabama Snake. And it's about this guy who's like a snake handling preacher up in East Tennessee and like used the snake, the rattlesnakes they use at church to attempted to murder his wife. Crazy, crazy stuff. And then watched one on the mystery of DB Cooper, which was wild. Never knew about that story about the guy that hijacked the plane, got the money and then jumped out with a parachute and they never caught him. Really neat. Yeah. But I've been, I've been living in nostalgia because I used to be a big WCW wrestling fan in the nineties. And, and so I found this documentary series on the Monday night wars between WWF and WCW. And so I've been sort of living in nostalgia of watching that. But did you ever watch wrestling? Yeah. Yeah. Well, John, I remember that. And I remember when we started hanging out as kids, we would come over on Mondays and we would go out in the backyard and we would wrestle out there in the back backyard where you were at. And so I was always a big Stone Cold Steve Austin, the older later guy. But then Andre the Giant, I mean, you just can't get better than Andre. He was one of my, my all time favorites. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, my all time favorite was Sting. I'm a big Sting fan. I love Sting, but. Yes. That's awesome. That is awesome. Hey, John, in the world though, that, that we do live in, there has been one, if we want to do this one. Well, actually two, one's where I'm from. The Duggar situation. I'm sure a lot of our people have seen that. The abuse that he had on his own siblings. And now later on as a dad, you know, the FBI raiding for the child born. Just a tragic situation. He actually went to the church that we went to for a couple of months there in Arkansas because they're from Arkansas. And so it was, you know, you've got this TV show guy that's coming in. So he was pretty popular. But, you know, that happened in our, in the world of the IFB area. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, there's a lot of opinions to be shared about that. Obviously, that is disgusting. Child porn is disgusting. And what he's done is disgusting. And I'd like to encourage people to pray for his wife, Anna. I think social media can be just absolutely cruel and harsh and these types of things. Everybody wants to be their keyboard warrior. And, you know, it really just, she doesn't need everybody telling her what to do and what she should do. She just needs people praying for her. And, you know, on that note, there's also the Preacher Boys podcast did an episode with Kathy Durbin and the court case with her offender from Faith Baptist in Wildemar, Paul Fox. We actually covered, we addressed that several episodes back and mentioned that. And so they've had, you know, the update in that story. I encourage everybody to go to listen to that episode of Kathy Durbin's impact statement and definitely encourage people to listen to that and share that and get people. People need to realize and recognize the effects that this type of abuse has on people. Yeah. And even locally, John, here where I'm at, just, you know, an hour down the road at a church in Stanleyville, a pastor with four kids. He's our age. He graduated from Liberty University. He just, the same thing, caught with child porn, making and distributing as a pastor. Four kids. And I just, I pray for that church. He actually, one of our, one of my good friends here in town, he graduated with him from Liberty. And so he said, man, it's just tough right now hearing that and seeing that. And so it is tough. We need to pray for these families. We need to pray for these wives that their whole life, you know, have been a lot to them. And maybe not the whole life. I don't know the whole story. But, you know, definitely these children are going to go through a lot. Yeah. Yeah. You know, at this time, we're going to jump into our IFB sermon clip of the week. And that sort of goes along a little bit with what we were just mentioning because there seems to be this idea of people wanting to refuse to look at the problems with some of these people have used their power to abuse others. And so this comes from a recent conference that's been going on this past week and brought to you by IFB sermon clips. Here is your IFB sermon clip of the week. And we have a generation now of the new independent Baptist group that want to tear down all of our heroes. They are very similar to the liberals, liberal politicians that want to tear down our history. They want to tear down our heroes of history because of their flaws. These were flawed men. They had problems. They had mistakes. They had mistakes. Society was different back in the 1700s than it is today. But because of their flaws, they want us to forget all of the wonderful and good things they did. You heard Brother Coral quote all of those quotes. Men like that barely exist today. But they want to destroy their legacy and wipe out that history. And the new independent Baptist want to wipe out the history of great men that we revered because of some flaws in their... Look, none of us thought they were perfect. None of us thought that they were God. We understood that. But you want to tear... And listen, and the thing behind all this is not just tearing them down because of the lack of character or lack of flaws in their life. It's the fact that you're going to now tear down the truths that they presented. Truth is truth no matter where it comes. It can come from my mouth or the mouth of a donkey. It's still true. Truth is truth no matter where it comes from. And I want us to understand that and understand that we've made some mistakes. Now, I want to say some things to the older crowd, my crowd. You know, I was the young guy one day. And by the way, I appreciate the fact that I'm... You know, Caleb was the youngest guy this morning. I'm the next youngest. And then Brother Paisley, thank God you're here. Because you come after me. And I'm not the old guy on the program. Because a lot of places I go, I am the old guy on the program. At our missions conference, I had one missionary there that was 70 years old. And I said I brought... It was Sigstat, Mark Sigstat. I said I brought you for one reason. I needed one person older than me. So that I didn't feel bad. But there's some things I think we need to understand as an old generation about how to handle a new generation. But don't go to sleep, young generation. Because you've got a few things to say to you, too. Oh, that gets me going. Because the thing is... And the guy doesn't mention the names, but in another clip he mentions these heroes that he's talking about. It's like Lester Roloff, Jack Hiles, and John R. Rice. And these guys... And they're so upset that people are giving... They said that we're tearing them down. We're not tearing them down. We're speaking the truth about them. They were saying, let the truth of their lives speak today. And hold that up against the light of the truth of Scripture. And it's not holding up. These people abused people. They turned their ministries into cults. Why should we hold them up? Yeah, it's just so much of a huge form of man worship. And we were... I was in it. I mean, I'm not saying that I wasn't part of it. We lifted up people. And I remember getting, you know, some of my first messages. I'm lifting up people. And I remember my pastor came to him and he said, listen, our people don't know any of those people. We don't worship people around here. And it was eye-opening to me. But, you know, now, you know, 10 years removed from that or removed from that situation. And now I have my own life and things are different. And, man, I don't... Why is it so important? Because in one of his clips, he says, in that same sermon, he says, I'm preaching Bible here. Pay attention, I'm preaching Bible. You're talking about a man who's not in the Bible. It's just... It blows me away. Yeah, absolutely. When you're talking about a guy like Jack Hiles, right? Jack Hiles, who had an affair, a decades-long affair with his secretary that's documented and proven by more than one witness, by more than one person within both of the families. I'm talking about the secretary's daughter has confirmed it. And several of Hiles' kids have confirmed it. This guy's ex... This lady's ex-husband confirmed it. So, I mean, how much more evidence and witness do you... So, this guy carried on a decades-long affair. You have testimony from Jack Hiles on children that says that his wife... He treated his wife like garbage. And so, he's a domestic abuser. He domestically abused his wife. And then you look at the state that he ran his church in as it was a cult. It is... You hold it up to the definitions of what a cult is. And it hits it on every note. The guy did not preach truth. The guy over-repeatedly preached heresy. And listen, if you're like, back these claims up, John, I would encourage you, go back and listen to the beginning episodes of this podcast, starting at episode number four, as I start to break down the history of the IFP movement. And detail some of these problems and these things that these... These are not people that should be proclaimed as heroes. And if they are, you're either blind or I'm very... We have some issues with you. So, yeah, that was our IFP clip of the week, brought to you by IFP Sermon Clips. And we are so excited, actually, to get this thing started that me and James have been putting together. And this is actually... We're going to start a new series. And so, James, give us a drum roll for the... This is what we're calling the new series. We're going to roll it out. It's going to be several episodes long. And it is... James, wait a second. What are we calling this? I don't know. The RFP... Huh? We had talked about a crossover, is what you wanted to name it. The RFP Crossover Epic Event? Yeah, sure. Okay. That works for me. All right. Yeah. The RFP Crossover Epic Event podcasting series for the For Freedom. And so, we are so excited to roll this out. This is our first one. And we have the hosts of the 26 Letters podcast, Dave and Sam Velasquez, with us. Dave and Sam, how are you doing? So great. I feel like a superstar. I've never been a guest on a podcast before. Yeah, this is great. We forgot to send you the complimentary basket. We do have shirts made now. Don't worry. I'll give you my address. You have shirts? We have shirts. We have a friend of ours, a mutual friend. It's actually John's sister-in-law, and I grew up with her as well. And she made us four Freedom shirts. And so, it's pretty awesome. That's super cool. I was going to have mine. Very nice. My daughter spilled yogurt all over it about three hours ago. So, there you go. We're going to wear it to our RFP meetup in Missouri. So, it's pretty exciting. Very cool. Very nice. Yeah. So, we're excited about having Dave and Sam on. And these guys joined the RFP network before us. And me and James were sort of late in the group. But I started getting – the first time I ever heard of you guys' podcast was Will Hess through, like, a recommendation out there for it. And I was like, okay. So, another one. So, it's getting bigger. More podcasts about this subject. And I was like, eh. Yeah. And then, I finally was like, all right. So, we're in the network now. I should listen. I should get to know everybody. And I listened to it. And I'm telling you, it's like the total opposite reaction. I was just like, this is my – well, I better not say that out loud. But this is the coolest podcast. I love it. Like, it was just – it's like a breath of fresh air from everything, like, we're doing and everybody else is doing. But it's like the same niche. And it's – I don't know how to say it, but I love it. Yeah. I know, you know, when we listen to a lot of the stories, I mean, like, it's real. It's raw. It's heavy. So, we like to laugh. Yeah. So, we like to laugh and, you know, bring a sarcastic light to a lot of things. Because you've got to learn to laugh at yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I love – sorry. I'm hogging the mic, James. I'm sorry. I think I really love the just chill atmosphere. Just laid back. We're just going to have fun. We're going to talk about it. You know, and you bring that fresh light to even the King James Only issue that you guys just talked about. Just that fun, that freshness that really sometimes we can get heated. I know when me and John did our episodes, there were times where we, you know, we may have pulled a little buttons and hit some trigger points. But just that chill, just that fun atmosphere is really what has engaged me a lot in the episodes. Well, thanks, guys. Yeah, and I love when Dave drops the occasional Italian accent. That's absolutely hilarious. Yeah. David always tries to get me to do accents, and I'm very, very bad at it. Yeah. Sam is very bad at accents. Yeah. But it's great. Okay, so I think one thing, I know that the podcast really, in each episode, is about your stories. And it's sort of your, you know, story growing through this. But what is sort of the story? I don't think I've heard this yet. I haven't listened to all of them. I'm like at E for education. And I'm updated on the newest ones being dropped. And James listens to all of them. But what was the story about starting it? Yeah. So last year, my New Year's resolution, one of my New Year's resolutions was to start, like any good millennials, to start a podcast. And so I've been a fan of just the genre since I was like a junior in high school. And so I thought, well, I'm going to start a podcast. But I didn't know exactly what. So I bounced around starting like a board game podcast. Sam wouldn't do that with me, surprisingly. And some other type of history podcast. But I thought, no, that involves a ton of research I don't have time for. And so one day we were, as we were. I think we were hiking. Yeah. And kind of making our exit out of the IFB in our minds and in our hearts. I thought, well, hey, why don't we do a podcast about how we grew up and some of the stories under that? And so we had no idea that the recovering fundamentalist was a thing. Right. Yeah, we thought we were so original. We thought, like, man, nobody's talking about this. And so I Googled that evening, like, IFB podcast. And sure enough, you hear, Jesus was not a bartender. And I was just like, what in the world? Who are these guys? I was like, honey, we're late to the party. And so I had emailed the guys and let them know that they were really encouraging because we were just making our steps out. And just listening to what they had to say was great. And I had mentioned about the idea of us starting a podcast. And I think it was Nathan that replied. He said, hey, yeah, you should do it. And so it took a couple of months afterwards. But then November is when we started the podcast. And so that was kind of the idea. Really, the podcast was just born out of a New Year's resolution, and we just picked this topic. But part of where we got, like, to do the 26 letters is we read a book, and it kind of told us, especially if you're brand new at starting a podcast, you should have maybe, like, a time limit for this podcast. So we thought, okay, if we go in and we just decide, hey, we're going to do something for every letter of the alphabet, we'll go in, we'll say our piece, we'll drop the mic, peace out. So that kind of, that's where we got the alphabet little scheme from. Yeah. I like it. David, I want to go backward just for a second. If you were to do a board game podcast, what would that actually look like? Would you play board games and review them? Well, I'll just move my shoulder a little bit. And if you see, there's a couple of shelves behind me, and those are where all our board games are at. And so I would, I mean, I think I would probably do something like either reviewing them, but plenty of people do that already. As a matter of fact, I'm just going to say this, but shout out to Tom Vassell, who is probably, you guys probably don't know this, but he's one of the biggest names in the board gaming industry. But he, I believe, is also recovering fundamentalist and follows Brian and them. So just interesting. But anyways, I'd probably do something about reviewing and covering the stories behind board games, because I'm a big history nerd, and a lot of board games are about history. Also, what he isn't telling you is that we have two fake episodes of a podcast called It Takes Two, where we review only two-player games. Yes, this is true. The one that never aired, huh? Yes. Am I seeing two, like, vignettes back there of the Star Wars films, too? No. No. Those are, they're actually, so we cheated. I'm a very cheap person when it comes to art. And so this is supposed to be, like, one piece that is divided vertically. Yes. But instead, we set them horizontally that way. Yeah. And it's just, like, a camper in, like, the mountains of Utah. And the sun is setting on the camper. Yeah, the different sun periods of the day. Yep. Awesome. That's great. That's great. Let me ask you one more question, since we're on board games. Sure. I'm a big board game guy as well. So, and have you ever played the game Ticket to Ride? Oh, yeah. Ticket to Ride was probably one of the first ones we ever played. That wasn't, like, Life or Monopoly. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's a great one. As a matter of fact, if you guys are in ministry and you work with young people, I would recommend a board game called Wavelength. It's a great party game. And it is, it just creates a lot of laughter. I think you can find it at Target for, like, 20 or 30 bucks. But Wavelength, it would be my recommendation for any kids ministry or, well, maybe upper kids youth department. And even young adult. We love that. Oh, yeah. And young adult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm buying it tomorrow. You recommended it. I have to buy it. It's good. It's a good one. Any other recommendations? Do you have a coffee mug out yet for the 26 letters that I can add to my coffee mugs? We're working on merch right now, actually. All right. It's just, that's a lot harder than we thought it would be. So, one of the other cool things about your podcast is your music. Your music is fantastic. My daughter asked me one time, she said, what do you listen to? And I pulled, she's like five. I pulled the headphone thing out and listened, and it was just, it was right at the moment your music hit. And she's just. Bebopping around. Yeah. I mean, she loved it. She was just dancing to it. And it's just, I love it. I love it. Tapping her foot. Dude, I love that we get compliments on our music because finding that was no joke. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So. Yeah. So, the music reminds me, and I think this is probably the reason why you picked it as like a Sesame Street feel. We have gotten that before. Yeah. That's interesting that you say that. Some people, I didn't really watch a lot of Sesame Street. We just heard it, and it really appealed. It shows. The original music actually has robot noises going on in the background. And if we chose to keep the robot voices, then it would have been free because what did we find on like Free Music Library or something like that? Something like that. But we didn't like the robot. So, we reached out to the artist and said, hey, can you remove the robot sounds? And he's like, oh, yeah, sure. So, he charged like 10 bucks. And that's the end of the story. Well, then you start off the podcast with saying the podcast today is brought by the letter. And whatever letter it is, that is what you're doing. So, we're going to do a play on that. Okay. Sure. All right. So, we are the 4 Freedom Podcast. Right. And like letters, Sesame Street also does numbers. So, we're going to do today. Today's episode of the 4 Freedom Podcast is brought to you by the number, James? 4. 4. That was awful. 4. With the Zoom lag and everything. But yes, 4. And so, we're going to talk today about 4 things that Sam and Dave have learned since their exit from the IFB. Or 4 takeaways, main takeaways from leaving the IFB. Sure. So, let's get into this. Are you guys ready? Yeah, I think so. All right. So, what's number one on your list? Do you want to go, honey? Okay. Yeah, sure. So, I think number one is going to be that we're not alone. And what we mean by that is not like extraterrestrials and aliens. But instead, that Christianity is at the small bubble that we always thought it was. That we are not the last remnant holding on to the fabric of the faith. But instead, God's family is a lot bigger than we think. And I think someone shared this quote with me and it really resonated with us. And that God doesn't save us to be twins. He saves us to be brothers and sisters. So, we spend too much time looking for twins when we should be looking for brothers. That is excellent. That's a great point. And that was sort of like one of those things that just sort of was like eye-opening to me whenever I got out of it. And, you know, being in the ministry and pastoring, like I started going and branching out into like going to more, I know James was the same way, of like either conferences or workshops, ministry workshops that weren't necessarily in the IFB. And the funny thing was, is I'm hearing all this stuff and I'm like, man, these guys are wearing like flip-flops with blue jeans while they're teaching me this amazing truth. And they're like not even, and sometimes they'll hit you with something that's hard and it's like, you know, you got a little bit of IFB in you? And then afterwards I'll be sitting around the table and this has happened to me, I'm telling you, at least four or five times in some of these things that I've been to over the years. I'll be sitting around the table at lunch and I'm usually there by myself and I'm sitting around with a bunch of different other guys from ministry. And they're like, so tell us your name and a little bit about yourself. And I was like, well, my name's John and pastors, some bivocational church. And yeah, I came out of the IFB movement. And every time I say that, I just stop. And normally there's one or two guys at the table that do this. And then there's about the rest of the people at the table are going, what's that? Right. And that response right there is like, wait a second. I was led to believe that we were the it. We were the top dogs in ministry in the world and people have no clue. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for us, it was a really joyful thing to really learn that. Right, hon? Oh, yeah. I mean, is it in the Bible, is it Elijah that is just so tired because he tells God, he's like, I am the only one out here. Right. I mean, I sat in churches that were comparing the IFB to Elijah in that moment and realizing and like they were preaching that like we are the last remnant, like we are tired because we are the only ones. And it's like, OK, well, actually, if you read the rest of that story, God pretty much tells him to take a nap and then to go and meet all of these other believers. Yeah. Take a nap, eat some food. You're just cranky. Yeah. And but like that is very much how I felt, like kind of not like I don't mean this in the sense that it was a burden, but it was kind of exhausting because you think like if I screw up one time or mess up one thing, then I am just bringing so much shame to this title of Christian and already we're the only ones that have it right in this large scope of Christianity and just kind of leaving and realizing that that was not the appropriate way to look at things is very, very refreshing and renewing. Yeah. Like we're not the only ones who love Jesus. And there's a lot of other people who love Jesus. A lot of people who love Jesus more than more than I do and look nothing like me and act nothing like me and have different traditions and different preferences. And that's really awesome to know like, hey, that's my brother. That's my sister. Yeah, that's so true. And I can say that we definitely went through that as well. And it's good to say, David, that me and you do not look alike. You're a little bit darker than I am. So. Yeah, I don't have to use as much sunscreen, maybe. Yeah. Well, how many times, James, and you guys, you know, went to a Bible college too. How many times have we heard that, you know, you have a preacher up there preaching or some kind of missionary and they're saying, we need churches here. There's only one Bible believing church in this area. There's only, there's no Bible believing churches in this area. And then you get, like I heard a friend say, there's, there's like no churches in Pensacola. And then they went down there and they started the church. And I remember the first time I went and visited them. I mean, we just like hit like a 10, it was like a blue angel drive. And we're going down this road for 10 minutes straight. We're just a 55 miles per hour straight away. And I think as a count, like 15 churches. But there's no Bible believing churches. Yeah, that's, that's right. And, and someone we saw like last week. Yeah. Just like a week or two ago. Some, some folks that are, I think, pastoring in the Atlanta area and talked about how big and how many people are in Atlanta and how within the, uh, that radius, there was only two independent Baptist churches. And then it was like, you know, pray for laborers or something like that. I was like, oh my goodness. I was like, I really don't think you need to pray for laborers. Right. And like before that would have been like, wow, we need people to go down to Atlanta. And that would have been my mindset. But now to me, I just see that. And it's just like, man, that's so sad that you're that, that we limit our fellowship so much when we could be working together to see the kingdom of Christ advance. Yeah. In, in our small town, we're from Salisbury and we had a guy come in from Hidnight where I'm at right now. And he said there is only one Baptist church in Hidnight, North Carolina. And when I came here, there are seven, believe it or not, in the small town of Hidnight. And, uh, there's only one independent fundamental Baptist church in Hidnight, North Carolina. All the rest are Southern Baptist or independent Baptist. They're not independent fundamental Baptist. Right. And so his statement was correct. There's only one independent fundamental Baptist. There's actually like seven or eight. So, right. But what's your number two reason for leaving or, um, things behind that you've learned from the IFB? One of the things that we have run into, and I know that I, we've both really struggled with this personally is just coming to grips with the fact that our works and our performance don't necessarily, um, impress God kind of meaning like we cannot make ourselves a better Christian because of all of the things that we do for the Lord. You know, the day that we got saved, we are just as much a Christian then as I am today. And as I was three years ago when, you know, my whole entire Sunday consisted of just doing things. What's the book that we're reading right now? Uh, The Nature of Freedom by Graham Cook. Yeah. I don't know much about the author, but this is something that we are reading in our small group right now. And it's a book called The Nature of Freedom. The Nature of Freedom. And the way, have you guys, do you guys know about this book? Okay. Okay. And so the author writes it as if God was writing letters to us about how he views us and the work that he is trying to do within us. And the whole premise is basically having an understanding of who he made us to be when we are saved and how we cannot be any better because he views us as Christ. And what is better than Christ? Christ. Well, nothing. And yet we spent so much time trying to rehabilitate the old man and the flesh and trying to make it look better. And in the book he says, you know, why do we spend so much time trying to dress up a dead thing? There's no, you know, it's a, it's a pointless and fruitless effort. And so in leaving the IFB, I think one of the things like Sam said is that like God is not impressed by some of the things that I once thought were so important. And as soon as I figured that out, like, Hey, this doesn't impress God. Why should I care then if it impresses you, you being whatever pastoral authority or other person who wants to hang that over my head? Well, also when we were at crown, so crown, the auditorium is very large. It's divided into 12 sections. And there was like a joke that would be said from behind the pulpit, but also, you know, there's a little bit of truth and everything. Right. And so section was at section 12. That was the, that was the five star Christian section. And that joke was made from behind the pulpit. And like, you know, of course everyone would laugh, but also we, we grew up in a way that very much made us think that there was such a thing as like a gold star Christian or like a Christian that wasn't appreciating their salvation because they weren't doing enough for the Lord. And, um, just us totally judging people based off of outward performances. Yeah. Me and James been having conversations like that personally going back and forth with our own ministry efforts with, you know, the biblical process of sanctification. And we sang Sunday at our church, um, a mighty fortress is our God. And I was pointing out to them verse two, which I think Sam says exactly the first thing that you said is, is exactly what Luther was hitting at in verse two. When he wrote this song, he said, did we in our own strength confide our strength? Our striving would be losing. We're not the right man on our side. The man of God's own choosing. Ask who does ask who that may be Christ Jesus. It is he, the Lord of hosts, his name from age to age, the same. And the way that he writes this last line, he must win the battle. Yeah. And that's what I was telling her. I said, we can't win the battle. Yeah. I just got chills. Yeah. Our striving would be losing. I mean, he was hitting that 500 years ago. Yeah. But yet we still struggle with it. I mean, what do you guys think? You know, when, when we talk about, oh, he is, when someone uses the phrase, he is a good Christian. He is a bad Christian. They're not as good a Christian. When we, what do you think, what do you guys think about like that, that metric that we used to, is there really even such a thing as a, as a good Christian? There, there's not in that sense, but what we think of is their dress, their standards, what they wear, where they go. How much they're involved. How much they're involved in church. What's their attendance like? That's what we look at because that's what we've been so ingrained in. How many times do we hear, save them up and God will straighten them up. God will cut their hair. God will get them hair. You know, how many times did I hear that? Get them saved and God will take care of their hair. Really? That's what the Bible says. That's what we're worried about. We don't care about how much they grow in God's word. We don't care how much they grow in community of fellowship with brothers and sisters. We care about their hair because that's what makes them look good. Yes. And kind of borrowing from an episode that David and I did, our guilt episode, this caused so much doubt in my life, almost from the day that I was saved, because when you are taught, this is what makes you a good Christian, the minute you don't do those things, the first day I don't read my Bible, the first day I don't pray, oh my gosh, am I really saved? Because if I was truly saved, maybe I wouldn't have forgotten to do these things. Or, you know, the first time I don't have the right motivation to go to youth group, like, oh no, am I, am I really saved? Because if I was a good Christian, I wouldn't be thinking these things. And that is so, so hurtful to a healthy Christian life. I could go like a serious point there or a funny point there. You can go. I'm struggling which one to go with. I'll go with the serious one first, then we can come around to the funny one. Yeah. But I was, most of our listeners know that I'm working on my counseling certification. And I'm in the process where I will have to get hours in, so I counsel, then I fill out a case report, and I talk with a supervisor who then goes through and says, all right, you did a good job here, don't do this again, that kind of stuff. Right. And my supervisor is a guy by the name of Steve Vyers. He's a pastor in Lafayette, Indiana, and he's wrote books such as Overcoming Your Past, or Putting Your Past in Its Place, Overcoming Bitterness, Loving Your Community. Anything this guy puts out, I highly recommend. He's a fantastic counselor and preacher. But I'm working on a case right now where the main issue is someone coming out of fundamentalism working through depression. And so I was talking with him about this, and I was giving him sort of the background information of the counselee, and he said this. He said, John, can I ask you a question? Because he knows my history. Yeah. I said, sure. And he said, do you think, here's a guy who's done biblical counseling for 30 plus years. Right. He said, do you think that fundamentalism breeds depression? Yes. I was like, you're asking me that? He's like, yeah. He said, yeah. And I said, you're the one with the 30 years experience. And I said, well, I said, it's a little bit of a difficult question to ask because I do think there are some people that are prone to it with the way that their chemical makeup is regardless. I said, but I mean, when you put somebody in a blender of performance-based living that they can't measure up to, I said, you're going to come out with depression most of the time, I think. Sure. Now, the funny angle that I was going to go to, horrible at segues, was how many of you have been saved multiple times? Me. James, you haven't? I'll say five. Never really doubted. Okay. Yeah. Come on, man. That's right. We got the same here. I was saved at nine years old and I don't think I've ever. These heathens over here. I know. Say, okay. I had the, you know, the whole salvation thing twice. And then at a youth conference, the whole assurance of your salvation decision. Now that's the, that's the, that's the ticket. How many times have you gotten assurance of your salvation? Yes. You know what? The assurance I, yeah, I did once when I was 13. So. What I think was probably one of the most disappointing experiences when it came to salvation and doubt and assurance is, um, one time I went to talk to someone that was in my church because I was very, very, very much struggling and I really didn't know. And instead of pointing me to the Bible, she just proceeded to tell me, well, you do all of these things. So surely they're coming out of a heart that's saved. And I'm like, no, they're not. They're coming out of you guys literally standing over me with a freaking whip. Like, and I will get in trouble if I don't do these things. And so I just, I walked away from that conversation. What should have been a very encouraging and uplifting conversation. I walked away so sad. And then absolutely knowing there was no one that I could talk to with these concerns because that's the only response that I was going to get. Yeah. Now my wife, if you ask her, she struggled multiple, probably 10, 15 times of getting saved and resaved and rebaptized because her friend got baptized. So I need to get saved and get rebaptized because I'm not sure. And she was through that legalism of fundamentalism. Uh, she was straight out of a Jack house type church. The pastor started one. I mean, that's, that's what she came out of and she said it wasn't until she was 15 years old that her pastor's wife sat down with her and said, listen, this is what salvation is. And she said, that's when I got it. That's when I realized that's what salvation is. Um, so yeah. Honestly, I was struggling with doubt even, even last year. Um, and it's, which we'll get to this point later, but realizing that the gospel reaches every point and every day of your life and it's not just a salvation thing, but I was doubting my salvation so much that I felt that David and I actually got our TESOL certification to teach English to speakers of other languages. And we are going to be self-supporting missionaries in another country so that we could, or for me at least, so I could prove how good of a Christian I was. So if that doesn't scream doubt in an unhealthy Christian life, I don't know what does. Yeah. It was interesting. We were, we were driving back, um, from Hickory to Johnson city and we were driving through the mountains of North Carolina. We were talking about doing, we're trying to decide what we're going to do for the letter D and we're like, oh, don't we do door to door? And so as we started talking about the, um, like the methodology and the principles behind door to door ministry, I'd said, well, you know what? If I did implement that, if I was, you know, a pastor and that was my, my soul winning program or however you want to put it, I'd say I'd make sure I did a very thorough course with those who'd be actively involved with that ministry about what the gospel is. And so then Sam proceeded to ask, well, what do you mean by that? And I said, well, what do you think the gospel is? And, um, that kind of bleeds into our next point. Um, that one of our biggest takeaways from leaving the IFB is realizing that the gospel isn't just a one-time event, but that it is good for every day. And when we, we got back to Johnson city, we like threw our bags and things back in the house and then we proceeded to drive around for like another hour so that Sam could just start asking, she could start asking some questions. One of them being like, wait a second. So you're telling me that we got our TESOL certification not to prove that we were good Christians and not to prove that we were, you know, wanting to serve God and love God and, and, you know, prove ourselves. And they said, no, no, cause that's not the gospel. Yeah. And how powerful that is that when we actually understand that it's every day, the gospel can change our life. Wow. You know, so many times it's not that one time event that happens when I was five or nine or 10 or 12 or 15. It's every day. And you know, that gospel centered living, it's not just a one time event. Yeah, that's great. That's awesome. And people all the time talk about the joy of salvation. How in the heck can you experience the joy of salvation? If you think that the gospel is only good for the day that you got saved, I should be living in the joy of my salvation every day. And it is so much easier to do that when you realize, when you realize that the gospel affects you every single moment of your life. But I was not optimist. John, when he came out to our church the other day and he said, he was preaching out here and he said, I believe that it is a sin to take the Bible and make it boring. Because I think you said that, John, when you were out here, because the Bible should not be boring. It's the most exciting book that's ever been written. Absolutely. And too many times we take it, we make it boring when God says, this is exciting. This is something that changes people's life. Right. And, you know, yeah. I think right now. Well, that was one of the reasons. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Sam. Well, I was just going to say right now for part of my daily time with the Lord, I'm using the Bible Project, which I don't know if you guys know what that is, but you can find it for free on YouTube. And me as an English teacher, I love it because their whole purpose is to show how all of the Bible connects to each other and like different allegories and different like metaphors or motifs or whatever. And it's, oh, it's so cool. And it makes the Bible so not boring. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was one of the reasons to this whole gospel part was one of the reasons to why I wanted, I wanted to start the podcast from the beginning because I may be a little bit more jaded than others with the IFB. I get that. And I try to dial it back sometimes. But I think it's a lot. See, I think it's a lot more harmful than just, okay, you got the crazy pocket that people talk about. Oh, those are the crazies, you know, the IFB sermon clip shows. And then you've got the, the, um, the Hiles crowd or the abusive crowd, but you know, there's good IFB and see, I just sort of see it's, it's more harmful as a theological construct. Right. And that's where my issue was. Sure. I said, no, it's, it goes deeper than this because they are, they are missing it on the gospel. And then that flows from their theological understanding of everything is, yeah, it sounds good in some ways that they're presenting it, but it's skewed. And that was sort of, again, that might be a little bit of that coming out right there, but, um, that, that was sort of my perspective on it too. Yeah. One of the things that was super helpful is, um, when, when we were, when we had decided that we were going to leave and we let our, um, the church know and, um, the pastor. And so I had reached out to, um, uh, former teacher at crown. So he used to teach at crown and, uh, now it's not been, um, very much distance himself, I think from fundamentalism, but I called him cause I was like, well, I don't know who else is going through this, uh, thing right now. And so I asked him to give me just some recommended reading. And one of the books that he, he gave, um, as a recommendation, which I'm sure maybe, uh, one of you guys has read is dangerous calling. Have you guys read that by a Paul David trip? It's in the mail. It's coming in the mail. I've been waiting. I ordered it for my birthday and I was like that somebody told me that was the greatest book on leadership they've ever read. That book just broke me and made me weep and made me cry and made me realize. And I, I need to reread it again to, to get some more out of it. But the whole premise to just talking to pastors and leaders and telling them why they're so worn out because they don't apply the gospel to their daily life. And it was, and it just made sense. I'm like, geez, no wonder we're, we're burning out. No wonder we, we feel the way that we do. It's because we've never applied the gospel to our lives daily. And that was never an emphasis that was, that was made, you know, and I'm guilty of this, of just teaching people. All right, what is the gospel? It's the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And that's it. And while yes, that is the good news, that good news permeates more than salvation, like we've said, um, but every aspect of our life. And that book is just, I mean, it's tremendous. And so to any of your listeners that are listening to this, uh, I wholeheartedly recommend dangerous calling. Um, it is so, so good. And I think at least in the last several years, aside from the Bible has been the book that's impacted me the most. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I just, last week I preached, uh, last Wednesday, I preached on Luke nine 23, where it says, deny yourself and take up your cross daily. Mm-hmm. That's the gospel daily. Yeah. Jesus tells us that. But how many times do we hear that verse? And we don't ever apply that daily part. We just say, take up your cross and follow me. Yeah. But it's a daily thing that we have to do. And that's the gospel. Well, and then taking up your cross is like, you know, it's obviously this is implying that, that we are to, we are going to suffer for Christ and that, you know, we shouldn't put our own convenience over, um, over the Lord. Um, uh, but certainly it's the, the walk with Jesus and the relationship with Christ and his sustaining of us isn't, isn't what is, you know, isn't the thing that's emphasized. Um, at least from what a lot of what I understood in growing up for sure. Yeah. So what's your last point? Your last thought, number four, uh, what you've learned from leaving the IFB. So we actually split on number four. So I will tell you my fourth thing that I've learned and, um, I really, truly love. Um, we were getting ready for church yesterday and I was just listening to worship music and, you know, I was trying to prepare for the mindset of church. And I realized as I was walking out the door that I was excited and I was like, this is such a new feeling for me in the sense of usually growing up when I was getting ready for church, I was trying to get into a very somber and quiet and just very contemplative mood, which has its place. But also if I cannot celebrate in church, where can I celebrate? And just the literal joy that was flowing out of my heart, walking into church yesterday, driving in the car to go to church yesterday was just like, I am going to go and meet with people who love Jesus. And we're all going to fellowship and worship Jesus together. And that's just so cool. And you can ask David, I would go to a church service literally for five hours. If we just sang, I love singing in church and that just, oh, the church that we're at right now sings a lot and it brings me so much joy. Shame on you. You folks that only sing the first verse. Yes. And a chorus. And that's it. So, yeah. So that's my fourth thing. Yeah. There was one Sunday we left church and we just started crying because we were just so overwhelmed with just a spirit of worship, I think, in our own hearts towards the Lord and just still meditating on the message and meditating on the words from the songs that we sang. And I was like, man, I don't know if that's ever happened to me before. Leaving the IFB has caused us to cry many tears, some not good tears, but a lot of very good tears. A lot of very good tears. Yeah. So, but I will say, so my fourth thing is the importance of the importance of history. I always thought history was really important, but never really applied that to my own faith. And it wasn't until I started doing some digging for our podcast. I was like, well, we got to find the history of this stuff that we're going to talk about and that I realized you almost feel, I don't know if you guys experienced this, but like you almost feel kind of lied to just a little bit about some things because here you are, you were thinking like, oh, I do this because, well, this is clearly what the Bible teaches. It's like, no, this practice is less than a hundred years old. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I was, the history thing has been huge for me. I mean, the first five, six episodes I did was the history of the IFB. Yes. And that was, that was, I'm sorry to interrupt. That was a great, a great series. Like I, I think I listened to that twice, each episode twice through. So. Well, thank you. Um, that, that was mainly because my dad was, he got into it in the eighties and he would always talk about the sword conferences that he went to. He had J. Frank Norris's biography on his shelf. Um, it's, it's the one, it's the, the puff piece written by Louis Ensminger, his assistant pastor, which I read for my research as well. Yeah. But digging into it and finding out the, and I think it wouldn't have had as big an impact if I had not already ministry wise been reeducated in what the calling of an elder is like and the biblical, uh, framework for the qualifications for someone who was going to stand behind a pulpit. And then seeing, um, the character and the quality of this, but you know, somebody, people say, how are you going to throw out the baby with the bathwater? I'm like, there's, there's no baby in that bathwater. It's just nasty. Thank you. It's, it's been nasty since the beginning. Right. We, I mean, we, so we, we had some friends, um, that were passing through here, um, that grew up similar to how we did. And so, um, I had handed them a copy of, of authorized by Mark Ward. And in my reason why I gave it to them, I think one of the first things that I said was, I just don't like, I don't like being lied to. You should read this book. That's why I read this book. You need to read it. Um, and I think that's kind of my sentiment with this whole history, uh, thing, because as soon as you start to uncover history, you're like, oh, wait a second. What? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So I, I feel really naked. I feel exposed because I've been telling everybody else, like, no, you're a bad Christian. You're not a real Christian. Cause look at my practices. They're biblical. It's like, well, no history actually would tell us that they're not. And unless you think that, you know, the start of the church and true biblical Christianity started in the 1920s with J. Frank Norris, and then, you know, was commercialized and, uh, franchised by Jake, Jack Hiles, then okay, maybe you'll, you'll be honest with yourself, but I don't think anyone who then is perpetuating that, I think is just crazy. But anyway, so yeah, so the important of history for me, for sure. Yeah. And not just, I mean, another thing that wrecked me was the history of Baptist to begin with. Right. Because I came from a home that was very much strong. Like the three things that my dad was strong on and be careful. I may have to edit some of this out because I was about to say, one of them was not going to church regularly, but these three things, um, were, uh, music. Yeah. The King James version. Yeah. And that the Baptist have always existed down to the time of Christ. Those three things were huge. And so when I was like, I remember listening to like a, uh, session from some teacher from John MacArthur's church, who was doing a question and answer about an article he wrote on the life of Charles Spurgeon. Mm-hmm. And then something came up and he had mentioned, this is how this, like, I'm still like two years out of this and I still believe the Baptists are the bad, are it. And this guy says, you know, uh, there are some segments that believe that the Baptists went all the way back to the time of Christ. I was like, what do you mean? He's talking like people don't know this. Right. And he said, he said, James, and he goes, James McGoldrick actually wrote a very good book about this. And I was like, what? I paused it. I'm driving. I pull over to set up writing this down. I said, somebody's wrote about this. Right. I'm going to find this out. And so then I ordered the book and I was just like, this is, it's like you said, David, it's a huge lie. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. If you go to the crown college of the Bible, there is, well, at least when we were there, um, in the seminary office, there was a portrait of Charles Spurgeon with a quote that says, uh, something along the lines of, oh, you probably know the quote that the Baptists were the original Christians. You know, they were not Protestants for we never came out of the Catholic tradition. Instead, you know, we've existed since the times of Christ, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So some quote attributed to Spurgeon, but, and that's what we were taught, you know, that, hey, um, but then history of course would, would prove otherwise. And, and I think that's my point. And I think that's, that's what I've tried. When I start talking to people that still are IFB and, um, very much wave the IFB flag and, um, and that sort of thing. I think my question to them would be, okay, the things that your pastor says, where did, where did that come from? And then where did he get that from? Because if you start following that trail, it unravels really quickly. I'm okay. If you want to call your preferences, preferences, I'm all for that. Like you have your Liberty, you do what you want. As long as you can honestly admit, Hey, I'm not doing this because the Bible says so, but it's just because this is what I think I want to do. That's at least historically and intellectually honest, but the way we grew up, not that way. No, that's great. I do have one question because I'm not familiar with crown. And every time Sam says crown college, she just says crown college. But when David, when you say crown college, you say the crown college of the Bible. Yes. Well, why, why, why, why is the difference here? Sam, why don't you call it that? And David, why do you call it this? I've asked myself this question on every episode because when y'all refer to this, that's how you refer to it. Sam says crown college and David says the crown college of the Bible. Wow. That is so funny that you picked up on that. I didn't notice. I'm a nerd. But I absolutely agree with you. And here's, here's the real reason why. Because David still likes to maintain his good college kid status, you know, so he calls it the crown college of the Bible. And, um, me, I was very much all about flying under the radar. So that's not true. No, I say, I call it that because it's kind of, because if it's kind of a joke, cause you know, like part of, I think part of being a crown student is also thinking that you're better than all the other IFB colleges. Like there's definitely like put on airs, uh, and like the way we do our music and the way we come to church and like, you know, it's just very like, you know, you got your nose up in the, if it rained, you would drown. Yeah, basically. Um, and so, um, that is the, the, that is the name of the school. It is. So like, and that's how pastor Sexton would say it too. When he was getting really emphatic about a point, he would be like at the crown college of the Bible, we do it this way. So during basketball games, you know, cause we always won our basketball games. Am I right? So, uh, or like soccer games or whatever, um, you know, people would be like, let's go crown or like, you know, let's go crown. Let's go. And I'd say, let's go the crown college of the Bible, a distinctive Baptist college where we take, where we take the high road and the high road is not choosing between the good and the bad, but the high road is choosing between the good and the best and always choosing the best. And the best is the unending pursuit of Jesus Christ. That was our college motto. Boom. So, amen. Yes. I'm very familiar with the ministry. And I think I went to, uh, three couples retreats that they had done. Wow. And I'm telling you, like, there are so many things that you, even when I was like gung ho, I'd be there. I would just get under my skin, just being there. I remember hearing, hearing a story about how Sexton said that if he saw a staff member walk by a piece of trash on the ground and not pick it up, he would fire them. Come on. Good Lord. And I remember, James, I don't know if you were there for this, but one time Tony Hudson came through champion and he was trying to get a rise out of the champion students. And he was going on, you know, his Tony Hudson just going at it. And he says, you want to know how you spell champion? And he goes, C-R-O-W-N. I love it. But see, we were all like, oh, that's pretty funny. We didn't care. That's funny. The Crown students would have thought they were better than champion. That's hilarious. Did y'all even know Champion Baptist College existed? Sam did. I don't think anybody does. Even today. We had one of, so you know, like when you're a little kid and you really look up to high schoolers. So one of the girls that I super looked up to when I was a little kid went to Champion right as they were kind of turning their, quote, liberal, you know, their liberal leaf over. That was the year they had greater vision in. And that's after I left. Okay. What year was that? You might have been there. That would have been. If you're okay with revealing. That would have been 2010. I was there. I graduated in 2011. So it was in 2010. So she was there. And I guess, I can't, I can't remember the years, but I remember her telling a story that they were watching Facing the Giants. And. Yes, I was there for that. There was a big controversy because apparently they didn't mute the music when Casting Crown started singing. And she was telling us about how big of a deal that was. That's awesome. Yes. There was one time. Was it? No, right. Okay. Go ahead. Because I got an inside scoop story that I could share just a minute. There was one time we watched Clint Eastwood's son produced a movie and they came in. It wasn't a Christian movie at all, but brother Eric brought in the producer, which was Clint Eastwood's son. And he talked about the movie. We showed the movie in the college and there were some cuss words. And so brother Eric had went through and edited the movie and put, bleeped out the cuss words. And we watched this movie with him there. And then at the very end, they let him get up and talk about the movie and talk about how he knew Jesus. Yeah, it was, it was crazy. Wow. That is interesting. So I remember the last year I was there, this was the last semester before graduation. And this was when he was making those steps to move. We went out and hung out with him for a little bit. And he was talking about all the names and fundamentalism that were just running him through the dirt. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. He dropped like Arby Ouellette. Right. And those guys that just would not stop talking. And to be honest with you, and I'm going to, I'm going to take brother Eric's defense here. He was sick of it. Yeah. He was just sick and tired of, he was like, you know, we're supposed to be independent, but every time I do something, the Brethren Court of the IFB has something to say about it. And it's going around telling churches not to send people to us. And he's like, who cares? Be independent. And he had had his feel of it. He was done. I don't blame him. I don't know how we got way off on that. I don't either. He asked about. But it was great. He asked about the Crown College of the United States. Oh, I, he asked about that. Yeah. Which now they, real quick, they're no longer from, I think, last time I checked their website. Okay. They're no longer a distinctive Baptist college. They're a distinctive Christian college. So they are starting down this slippery slope. Well, no, because, no, no, no, no, because that's what TTU was their slogan, a distinctive Christian college. But, you know, TTU is. They don't exist anymore. Right. You know. So that slogan is up for grabs. Which, history note here for you, from most of the older ones that I have talked to, Tennessee Temple and its glory days is what Clarence Sexton tried to model. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. And he'll say that, too. Oh, he does? Oh. That's very much his goal. Yeah. Lee Robertson was the greatest Christian man he ever knew. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have absolutely loved this time together, guys. I can't wait till we have a chance to just meet up. We may, next time I go to North Carolina to see family, I may, like, swing up through Johnson City and come back now. Well, I mean, you know, his parents still live in Hickory. Yeah. Let me know. Yes. And I will buy you lunch. Oh. Well, that's very nice of you. John. Yeah. You're chopped liver, John, now. Hey, if you could. We've got new friends. Yeah. Hidden Night was cool because fourth grade is where we would take our trips to, you know, to the mines. Yeah. You can see my church. You can see my church from the gym mine. Oh, right on. Yes. So. Yeah. Yeah. North Carolina's great. Anytime we drive into the border, I just, I take a, I go. He'll beep the horn and he'll be like, and whenever we have our dog with us, he'll be like, you smell that, Klaus? That's North Carolina air. Yeah, that's right. My family knows that I have a rule that anytime we go to any store, grocery store, or gas station and they have Cheerwine. Yeah. Daddy's buying something. I will say Cheerwine is very good. Very good. It's so good. It's made in Salisbury, North Carolina. Yeah. Boom. My hometown. Very good. Also, wasn't Hickory like the wicker capital of America for a while? The textile industry. Textile. Okay. Yeah. Furniture. Salisbury. I think we've lost everybody at this point. That's right. You may, you may want to edit. You guys can edit this part out over here. John, go ahead and close the show down for us. Okay. Oh, it's been an absolute blast having David say, of the 26 letters podcast. Guys, do you have any closing comments that you'd like to leave us with? Well, I'm the cooler one out of the two of us. But honestly, thank you guys for asking us to come on. It has been very fun and enjoyable. Yeah. No. And I appreciate the work that you guys are doing with your podcast. I enjoyed listening to it. And I think that the kinds of conversations that you help facilitate are things that are challenging one, but also edifying. And I think that that is not something that a lot of people can accomplish. So thank you guys for doing that. No, that means a lot. It means a lot. It does. James, any closing comments? I'm great. I'm just geeking out that we got to talk to David and Sam over here. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Thank you guys so much for listening. And as usual, check out the podcast and rate it, review it, and share it if you can. And until next time, to God, not the pastor. Not the performance of salvation. Works performance of... Dave said the pastor. Dave wanted to get it there. Dave, yeah, he did. He did. Be the glory. Thank you for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give a rating, leave a comment, or share it on Facebook or Twitter. To find more helpful resources for your journey through the independent fundamental Baptist world, check out RFPNetwork.org, where you can find this podcast and others, such as the Recovering Fundamentals podcast, the RFWP podcast, the Young Baptist podcast, the Church Split, the Preacher's Kids podcast, the 26 Letters podcast, and the RFP en Español. God bless. God bless. Thank you.

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