40. RFP Network Crossover Series Part 2: JC Groves & How Legalism Effects the Family

And here we go. And here we go. Or something. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. If there's such a word, you're stupider now. Don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and we'll all flub up together. Well, we are super excited today about having one of the hosts from the Recovering Fundamentals podcast. With us today. JC Groves is with us. And I'm a huge fan of the Recovering Fundamentals podcast. When it first started coming out, me and John, of course, we were loving it. It was right after I was actually introduced to the Preacher Boys podcast first. And then the RFP. And so I thought that the RFP was a remake of the Preacher Boys podcast. So that's the perception that I got. But getting to know JC and John, getting to know them. It's crazy how our lives have so many people in common just from this area of the country. And so JC, welcome to the show. Give us an introduction of who you are because I don't know if everybody knows who you are. And tell us a little about yourself. Awesome. Well, guys, it is good to be on the For Freedom podcast. Have been a big fan of y'all since even before you joined the RFP network. And so we're glad that you guys are part of it. I am a college and student pastor in South Georgia. We've been down here now about seven months. And I've got a wife, Kim. We've been married, man, pretty near close to 13 years. And we've got six kids, 11 years old and under. Three boys are the oldest. Three girls are the youngest. We planned it that way. And we got a dog named Bowden. Been doing ministry for, wow, quite a while. Been in Georgia as a student pastor. Went over to Salt Lake City for three years as a pastor. And came back about 10 years ago. Started a church in North Georgia. It was a multi-site church of a fairly large Southern Baptist church up in North Georgia. And last October, we were moving into a $6.2 million building. And God said, you're done. You've got to move. And I was like, wait a second. No, no, no. I mean, it wasn't the audible voice of God. I hope if I ever do hear the audible voice, it sounds like Morgan Freeman. But it was definitely as clear as we're sitting here talking where he said go. And so I stepped out that day. And it took a year. And God led us here to North Georgia. In fact, we moved into our first service on a Sunday in a $6.2 million building. And I quit on Monday to move to South Georgia to be a college and student pastor. And I love life, man. And I love student ministry, next-gen college students. This is my home. We started the podcast, Recovering Fundamentals podcast, about a little over a year ago. Just an idea, a dream. I was driving to Texas one night in the middle of the night. Because I have six kids, we give them a bunch of Benadryl. And we tell them to go to sleep. Come on. I'll tell you. We tell them to go to sleep. And so I drive all night. And I'm listening to podcasts. And I kept typing in Recovering Fundamentalist, Legalist, IFB, Independent Fundamental Baptist. And there was no podcast almost a year, about two years ago. There was nothing in this genre. And I called Nathan. Me and Brian and Nathan, we call each other about 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock in the morning. It's when we communicate the best. And I called him and said, hey, guys, we got to start a podcast. I said, we've been having this conversation for a while. Let's jump on it. And we got together. Had another guy that was going to jump on with us. Just didn't fit. And it took off. And here we are. Man, year and a half later, well over a million downloads. And there's probably 15 to 20 other podcasts like y'all's that have started that are all around this area. Man, and it's just helping folks discover truth. Truth never fears the challenge. And there's a bunch of us popping up, challenging it. And I love it. I'm a big fan of y'all's podcast, by the way. I'm not a Star Wars guy. I got to put that out there, though. So I hear y'all talking about Star Wars all the time. That bores the living crap out of me. We'll try not to talk about that today. But, hey, one great thing is you're a youth pastor, student pastor. I'm a youth pastor, student pastor. John has just left the fold and took a senior pastor. But he took a downgrade step. Yes, he did. And is now a senior pastor. So we'll have to pray for him a little extra tonight. Tonight. Yeah. I tell everybody I got an upgrade when I got to leave pastor and come back to student ministry. So now I tell you this. I don't bash on Star Wars enough. I pray. My boys absolutely love Star Wars. In fact, I come home yesterday and they told me to come outside and watch their lightsaber battle that they had been practicing all day. And I literally about hit the floor. I was like, you got to be kidding me. I pray every day. God, don't let my kids be in band. But I'm just kidding. For all the band people, I just offended. I want them to be. Look at your shirt. Unbelievable. Oh, man. Oh, so great. Yeah. We are very pumped to have JC on. And yeah, I told Nathan this when we met to join the network. And I said, you know, this I asked whenever he asked, I said, let me talk to James. Because James, you know, needed his input. James took about three seconds to reply. I said, let's do it. Awesome. I prayed and fasted. And the Lord led me in that direction. And I said, you know what? It just makes sense. Because, you know, there would be no For Freedom podcast without the RFP. And that's just the truth. I mean, there was areas that we were like, you know what? The Lord had burdened my heart years before. But I just didn't know where to go with it. And then listening to you guys and listening to the preacher boys, it was just like, okay, what if there's an avenue here in this direction? And so, you know, we took a chance, jumped in at it. And I sort of was like, okay, I'll give it about 10 episodes. If it doesn't hit this mark, then I'll just say, hey, call it a day. But the Lord has sort of seemed to help some people. And I appreciate it. People have reached out. So when you guys were like, hey, we'd like to be associated with you. We were like, really? Let's go. So here's what I love about the RFP network is that all of the podcasts that are on here, us, y'all, 26 letters, whatever that Spanish language one is. I can't. Mike Peters. I don't even know what. Religioso. Sounds like something. Yeah, you're good. What else is there? PK podcast. The church split. What I love about our network is that we are all from a similar walk of life, but we're reaching so many different spectrums. There's people that will listen to y'all's podcast. I had a conversation this week with a good friend that I grew up with. His name is Ronnie Brown. And Ronnie has an incredible podcast called The Forgotten Podcast. And I've actually reached out to him. I'm like, dude, we want you on the network. So Ronnie, if you're listening, here's two podcasts that want you to join the network. Y'all need to listen to The Forgotten Podcast. He reads stories. Dude, it is excellent production. And Ronnie, I called him this week and he said, man, I can't stop listening to The For Freedom Podcast in 26 letters. He's like, y'all's podcast is great, but I love these two. And if the network wasn't around, nobody would have heard of those two. And just like a lot of your listeners would have never heard of ours. So that's what we're doing. We're all here to help each other and to continue to grow and point people to the truth, which when they discover truth, they continue to find the freedom of life that he talks about in John 1010. So guys, I'm pumped that y'all came on board. And we're big fans of your podcast. So thanks for being here. Thank you. And this is part of our attempt at doing a RFP network mega event crossover. I can't think of the best way to say it. But mashup. Yeah. So our theme today is we wanted to talk to JC about the legalism's effect on the family. And as many know that's heard the listen to the RFP podcast and follow JC that he is he's a big family guy. And so JC, tell us a little bit as we get into some of these questions beforehand. Tell us a little bit about your family. Yeah. Yeah. So me and my wife, like I said, we met 13 years ago and I was just coming fresh off of a heartbreak. I guess you could say I'd been dumped 10 days before a wedding and I was kind of trying to figure out what relationships were like and looked at my wife and met her. And she, my wife, here's what you got to say. My wife did not grow up independent fundamental Baptist. Like, I mean, my wife, she barely grew up in the church. She grew up in a Southern gospel singing group. And so the only time they were in church was when they were getting paid. And so she has a whole different set of legalism in her world. And we met and she came into, I was working at an independent fundamental Baptist church, actually, when we met. And God just began to grow our relationship as we both can started figuring out. I was leaving the IFB. She was figuring out what does this church world look like? What does a pastor's wife look like? Because, you know, growing up how we did, a wife will make you or break you in ministry. And, you know, there's all these stigmas that have to be on a pastor's wife. They got to play the piano and do all this and blah, blah, blah. She didn't do any of that stuff. But man, meeting Kim has been an absolute, when God says no, a greater yes is in store. And I wake up every day and see my greater yes. And God's blessed us with six kids. Caden, Colton, Corbin, Kenzie, Katie, and Caroline, or as I like to call them, Moose, Butters, Bubba, Sissy, Tink, and Little Red. And man, they are incredible kids. And if there's a seventh, I'm going to cry. There won't be a seventh. Lord, please don't let there be a seventh. Wow, that's incredible. So she doesn't know how to play the piano, but she does know how to make kids. That's a great thing. She can make babies, and she can play the drums, and that girl can cook. Boys, yeah. So my wife, fun fact, my wife was Amish growing up. And so her maiden name was Yoder, and so that girl can, she's got her own cookbook. It's about that thick with, I'm a billboard for how well she can cook. Let's put it that way. Amen. Yeah. Amen. I love it. She knows legalism probably better than we do. She knows the independent fundamental Baptist world from the Amish side, which is very similar to the cultish way of the IFB with a little bit of different flair thrown in there. So she very much understands it. Now, especially now, there's still things that are completely taboo to her when I go and talk to her about rules that I had at Bible school. And she's like, really? Y'all, for real? That's a rule? And I'm like, you didn't have electricity. Like, how in the world can you say that's a bad rule, woman? Wow. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Well, we're going to talk today, like John said, about legalism. And I struggle with legalism every day of my life still. It's something that it's part of us. We're talking about bringing an intern on. And we had lunch today. And we're talking about this. And this conversation even was brought up today in an event that he's wanting to plan for the end of the summer about how churches and people are just so legalistic in their bent. And how women and men... I went to an event the other day. It was a training seminar with shorts and crocs on. And the pastor shamed me for walking into God's house with shorts and crocs on. And I said, man, where is that in the Bible? I just... I'm just tired of the legalism, tired of the effects that it has. So the question we want to start with, and maybe we'll hit some spawns off of here, but how has this legalism in your life, the remnant of it, impacted your family, your marriage, your kids, sort of shed some light on that for us? Yeah, I think the biggest thing that it's done is like a few basic things is that legalism, it causes us to judge success based on obedience to rules rather than cultivating authentic wholeness, if you will. And so when outward appearance is stressed more than inward qualities, the relationship is legalistic. And I think coming into this, I was at the tail end. And I had just left a very legalistic type world. And I went into a very unhealthy church as my first youth pastor at job. And my wife, I bet her, she came in and was not by any stretch of the imagination liberal, but as a student pastor at an IFB church where the pastor six months before him came into the picture had left the church. She embezzled something like $3.4 million or something like that. And so here I am pastoring, student pastoring, leading the worship. I mean, there was a lot of chiefs and no Indians. And then my wife or my girlfriend at the time shows up and I'll never forget the first Sunday she was there. She sang. And I was all excited about having this new girl that I met saying, because my wife can sing. She's a beautiful singer. And she wore like some of those, those black church pants, you know, I mean, she didn't grow up IFB. She doesn't know what to wear. She, she come walking in. And I literally was like, oh my gosh, she's in the house of God and a pair of pants. Like hell is going to split wide open at the pulpit and she's going to get swallowed up and go to hell. She sang. And the next day I had emails like she could, we don't want her to sing here again. She wears those dress pants and all this. And I really started seeing it from this, this aspect of it. Well, uh, I, I have always been one that just kind of said, you know, I'm not going to really worry about the rules if you will, and what people think. And I just saw real quick that bringing in somebody from outside and not understanding why she can't wear a pair of pants, you know, to sing in, it started causing a little conflict within our, our relationship because I had church rules. And then outside of the church, we did whatever. I mean, she wore pants all the time, but when we came to the church, it had to change the structure up. And I think what it did at first is it really started creating some kind of conflict because the outward appearance was stressed a whole lot more than the inward qualities. And what that did is that made the relationship very legalistic. And, uh, you know, I, I believe the goal of marriage obviously is to feel like one marriage is that vehicle that God uses to help us grow, to be more like him. And when there's conflict due to outside sources that really are man-made ideologies and legalistic tendencies that have nothing from scripture, it started creating conflict within our relationship. And I was like, you know what, this is not worth it. So I actually resigned that church and, uh, we, we got engaged. I started working at a new church that was, didn't even care what you wore to church. And we just started seeing the, when the walls of the chains, as we say on the RFP, the chains of legalism, when those were being torn off, we started realizing how much whole and healthier our relationship as oneness was becoming because we were able to grow. And there wasn't this outside pressure, if you will, of just stupid rules that really aren't biblical rules that were added to it on top of the whole dating and getting to know each other type of thing. So you say that, that, that put a, the, without, without sort of saying the legalism and, and just sort of breaking that down and talking about how bad that is, but just the fact of those rules themselves put a strain on your relationship. Yeah. Because you, you were, you were, you had this inward pressure of, oh, we need to conform. Yeah. And she didn't understand it. Yeah. I was trying to please everybody. My girlfriend who was, I knew I was going to ask to marry me, didn't understand why she could wear what she wore to church when she did go. But then I also had a church full of people that due to some man-made ideology had this set list of the, kind of like baseball, the unspoken rules. You know, the IFB has a lot of those unspoken rules that you just don't do. And so as the pastor, I was sitting here torn between, am I in rebellion if my wife wears a pair of britches to sing in, you know, and there was just a lot of that conflict that became that we found ourselves in pointless disagreements and arguments over stupid rules. And then she was like, are you marrying me? Are you married to the church? Are you married to these people's ideology? And, you know, I, I look back at my parents, you know, my dad was an IFB pastor, um, and how they were in conflict at times because, you know, mom was coming out of the IFB, dad was still very much in it. And, and I don't know in your, y'all's family's worlds, but like, you know, you see the tendencies of just the culture that it creates when your world doesn't match up to the standard that you have to meet while you're at church, if that makes sense. And so, yeah, it definitely was creating a lot of conflict. Are you, I know some of these questions may be a little bit rhetorical, but would you say that you're, you're thankful that she pushed back on you? At that time? Yeah. Yeah. And would, how did you, how did you feel like, did you feel like this is not just, oh, she's not just jumping on this, but is she, is this, because I think some of the mentality that we had back then was like, the fact that she's questioning this, is she, she really the right one for, for God, if she's not submitting? Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, she actually, I loved it because she actually, she didn't know the lingo. She didn't know the context of, you know, how IFB woman acts and responds. And she would ask why. And I was like, wow, you're asking, you're giving pushback. You're asking me why? Well, heck, I don't know why. It's just how we do it. Woman, you know what I mean? There was things with that where I was looking at it from the aspect of, you're just supposed to know and submit and fall into line. And she's like, why can't I wear these pants? Where is that wrong? And I'm like, I, I don't know. Honestly, I give my wife a lot of credit for helping me leave that legalistic mindset because she just asked why. And, you know, I think a lot of the conflict was due to my pride and was due to my self not wanting to, I was a man pleaser big time. I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. But then as I'm realizing that, you know, Kim was in my life for a reason to really have me start questioning a lot of this stuff. And so I blame her. I'm kidding. So you guys get married and after that begin to have children. So this sort of carry over with the, with the parenting. And so, so we, we say on the podcast a lot that legalism is more than just an independent fundamental Baptist thing. Legalism is in every church. I worked in a mega church for the last nine years, bro. There's legalism on a whole different level of than the IFB. It actually, because we left that church, we got to another one. We worked there for, we worked there for a year, but then we got married and we hit legal. This was a Southern Baptist church. It was a completely different spectrum from the independent fundamental Baptist church that we had just been at. And our relationship really started growing. We were working in ministry together as an engaged couple. It was, it was healthy. We were growing. I mean, the student ministry was growing. Two weeks after I got to this church, the pastor that started that church said, Hey, I'm leaving. He said, I'm taking a church in Columbus, Georgia, and I need you to do what you just did at anchor at the other church. And I was like, you gotta be kidding me. So I stepped back into a role that I just left at anchor of hope. And I was pastoring. I was doing youth ministry. Fast forward a year into that. They said, do you want to be the pastor? Do you want to be the student pastor? I said, I want to be the student pastor. Jim and I had our date, our wedding date that was coming up. I wanted to just focus on what I knew how to do. And, uh, we get married, we go to our honeymoon, we come home. And while we were gone on our honeymoon, they hired a guy and, uh, it, it put us in like this, like, we thought we were healthy. We thought things were going well. What's going on? Well, this guy fast forward. Um, we get, we got pregnant a couple months after, uh, the honeymoon. And, uh, the day before my oldest son was born, I got fired from this church. Um, we were running probably about two 50 in youth groups. The church was shrinking. And so people were coming on Sunday nights to youth groups and not coming on Sunday mornings. And so we, we saw this shift and I was like, the writing's on the wall here. This is not good. And, uh, the day before he was born, uh, they, they said, we're, we're going to ask you to leave. There's still no reason why I do this day. If anybody's listening to this and you know why, please call me and tell me why, but that put us in a world of hurt. Um, we saw, uh, a shunning from an SBC church that we had not even seen when we left the IFB. Um, everybody that was our friends gone one family from that church of about 500 came to our door and ask us if we were all right, ask us what happened. We don't know what happened. Um, to this day, they haven't given me one check of severance. They still owe me, you know, my last paycheck, all this stuff. Long story short, we had to rely on each other and God in that moment. We found ourself, uh, I went back out on the road, singing Southern gospel. Good Lord have mercy, uh, traveling on the weekends, traveling with a group called three bridges. And, uh, so we had a brand new baby. I'm on the road leaving on Thursday, going to Nashville, meeting the bus and, uh, driving all over the country, Elliot McCoy and the guys at three bridges really helped us in that moment, you know, cause we had no money and a brand new baby. We hit the road and, uh, our marriage really grew then. I think if it was going through those storms that we didn't have the legalistic tendencies, we didn't have somebody preaching at us. We just had each other and God. And so we jumped into the word. We were doing devotions together. We're really praying together and we grew strong. Um, God led us to Salt Lake city, Utah, and we were out there for about two and a half, three years. And that was the desert time. Um, it was through that desert time where we're out 38 hours away from anybody we knew. It was me, my wife and a little baby. And, uh, we just had each other and we just, we learned to really grow in that moment. We got to a very healthy church out there. It was like taking a step back 20 years in times. I mean, they're getting up thinking days of Elijah's brand new music. And I was like, wow, where are we? And, um, you know, they still had the flannel gaff with Jesus. And Peter is the same person, you know, when he walks, his upper body doesn't move. That's what we were, uh, where we were at, but man, it was healthy. We saw the pastor. His name was Mike gray. Uh, him and his wife, Dixie had been there for pretty near close to 40 years and they loved each other. And it was just finally a picture of what a healthy ministry looked like, like a healthy pastor that wasn't bound by legalism. That how a healthy pastor's wife works with her husband. Um, we came home three years later to North Georgia started rock bridge. And, uh, we were there for nine years and been here and had six kids in the meantime. I think it was in the water out there in Utah. There was something in the babies out there in Utah, but man, our relationship really grew, uh, through conflict and through trial outside of legalism. But due to a direct result of legalism, our relationship grew because of pain, because of suffering. And man, the last five years have been absolutely amazing. Just being freed from those chains completely and just doing ministry. And my wife is, she's a, she's a godsend for sure. She, I don't know what I would be doing, how I could do ministry without her. If that makes sense. I think that's the, the, the fine walk you have to have in ministry. I've always heard that a wife will make your break in ministry. I understand it now. Uh, she's not paid by the church. She's not required to do anything, but she is just as much a part of connection students and connection college as I am here. Man, I can so relate to your story. When we were in Idaho, we were away from everyone and all we could rely on was each other. There was no family. There was no nothing. Uh, so man, I can, I can even relate what I remember. And I had no idea it was you, John may have been there when three bridges released a CD. And I remember listening to it with our youth group and thinking, man, this is the greatest group ever. I can remember. It was, it was the coolest thing ever. And there's so much as crazy how even God has worked through a lot of these things. But man, I do want to circle back to one. You made, you mentioned something earlier and we sort of jumped ahead to family. Um, I want to ask how did leaving the, the, I have been when I even leave in, but the remnants of that be when you began dating and your wife asked these questions, how, how did that conflict work with you? I mean, was there times where y'all were so opposed? Did y'all break up? Did y'all get back together? How was, cause you're coming from two totally different. She's Amish, your IFB. Yeah. He's wearing pants. And you're like, why are you wearing pants? How was that conflict and how did they actually deal together? Did y'all work through that? I know you worked through it, but how did you work through it? It was difficult. I mean, those first, those first days of dating were difficult. You have to understand also, we were 12 hours apart. Um, she's from Paris, Texas. She was out on the road, traveling with her family, singing, uh, the Yoder family. Imagine that, uh, they were traveling by bus. I mean, horse drawn carriage. Uh, they were both bus. Um, but you know, they're out singing and I'm in Georgia. And so the only time that we would get together was when she would come in for the weekends or have a free weekend off. So really we did long distance dating, uh, for the first year and a half until she decided I need to move to Chattanooga and got an apartment here. But you have to understand also where I was coming from was being so entrenched and deep in my relationships previous to that. Um, you know, I was engaged to be married, like we said a minute ago, uh, inside an IFB culture. Um, and so I had a lot of mistrust issues that everything that relationship wise before my wife was just a facade. It was, it was kind of a mile wide and an inch deep. It wasn't very deep. There was no substance. It was all just a fraction of something to make it look good on the surface. Like everything was going on. And then obviously getting dumped 10 days before the wedding things were not a lot. There was not a lot of good underneath the surface if you can. So I brought a lot of hurt. There was a lot of mistrust. There was a lot of that pain that came over into this relationship. And then with me and my wife, uh, for her to be not testing my, my culture, but to be giving pushback on what I thought was fact and life and to be challenging my world that I have been in my whole life. And up to that point for her to just be challenging that and to keep asking questions, it caused a lot of conflict. A, there was trust issues. Um, cause she's 12 hours away. She's out singing. And I know the Southern gospel world. I know that world. It's interesting. Um, and so I know what goes on in that world. Um, I also, you know, I had the, the mistrust of, you know, here's this girl that's 12 hours away. I just got dumped. You know, I mean, I was dealing through all that pain. Um, that now she's asking questions. Why we actually broke up, uh, probably three months before we got engaged. She said, Hey, I need a break and said, don't call me. Don't talk to me. And so my world all crashed down again. I'm trying to be a youth pastor at a church. I've just getting my life back together. I've got this good girl, you know, and I'm like, what are we doing here? She dumps me for a month. And she said, I just need to pray about this. I need to take some time. I need to just get with God. I'm like, that's stupid. Just go pray about it. We're good. We're, we're, we're in right. Uh, at the end of that month, she said it we're in. She said, let's do this. I'm going to move to Chattanooga. And when she got here, that's when our relationship really started flourishing because I saw the motive behind the challenging. It wasn't just challenging the challenge. She really wanted to understand why I believed what I believed and, and I could see her heart behind it. Um, and that's when honestly, the, the walls that I had built up around my life, because let's be honest, when people challenge your culture, when people challenge the things that you have built up and you believe in wholeheartedly, it's like why we would die on the hill for it. Like KJ only got KJB only people. They'll die on the hill for that. And when you challenge it, their defenses go up because that's what we always believe. That's how I was. And I was very loud and outspoken about that. Um, and then when I started seeing my wife's heart behind the challenge and it wasn't like she was just directly challenging. It was just a, why, why do we believe that? Why, why, why are things the way they are in your culture? Um, that I realized it was, I really experienced truth and love for the first time and understood that it wasn't just a challenge to challenge, but it was really a challenge to seek understanding and to help me open. And through that, my eyes were open. Um, she got here, we dated, we dated for two years. Um, and I started experiencing outside of the structure of just going through the motions, what real love was like and how God wanted to use a marriage and how we grew in that oneness and that closeness and how we are better together than we are apart, how God did design marriage and how ministry can function. And I'll be honest. I said it a minute ago. I, I could not imagine doing ministry now without Kim. Like, I got six kids. I hope she does. Like I told her, I told her the other day, this may be too much, but I'm not going to I told her the other day. I said, babe, I hope, I hope that you never die just because I'll miss you. And I really don't like it, but I don't know. I have nothing going for me. I'm a fat bald dad of six that has a pastor salary. Like I have nothing going for me if you die. And I don't, I don't know how to raise these six kids by myself. Cause they're like hellions that desperately need Jesus, man. My kids are like chihuahuas on Red Bull. They never quit. Yeah. And I think it's so important. That's why me and John did, uh, two, three episodes total, just on the process of leaving, um, too many times people think, oh, well you left cause you're angry. You left cause you're bitter. No, it's, it's a process. We, we begin to see things. We begin to question things. We begin to ask things. And through the love of people that we care about. Yeah. You know, when, when my wife came to me and she said, James, I don't know if I can do this anymore. I don't know if I can be in this type of ministry. Now, even when we started not using the King James, she's like, oh, I don't know about that. I don't know if I signed up for that. So all of a sudden there was some pushback, but it was this, this love of care of, do we want our kids raised in this? Do we want to be in this area? So I think that's, that's some great light of shedding there. John, what's your thoughts? And what's your next question there? Uh, well, I was going to ask you this. Do you think, and if not, that's okay. But do you think JC, that maybe God used your wife during that time as almost like a discipler? 100%. For you? Mm-hmm. And I think one of the, the huge things for that is sort of how you responded to it. I know that there might've been frustration, but the fact that you were, you were able to work together through that. The reason I say that is because when I look at, you know, for instance, the RFP community group, that's what, is it 2000 plus members? Uh, I don't know. I want to say it's close to that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's that many people. And, and in that you have, you always have marriages that I think are, you have, this is something I've been wanting to dive into and do some more, uh, meditation on and studying on, but you always have couples. I'll think a lot of times when they leave the IFB, it's, it's, it's rare that you have them on the same page. You have maybe one spouse in one area or once in your case, you were here and she was trying to understand. Yeah. Yeah. Which caused you to come, come to a more balanced approach. Sure. I think, I thank God every day that she did not grow up IFB. Like I thank God that she grew up in a culture that was completely different to this. Cause I brought her into this IP. I was still at Tennessee temple university when, you know, towards the tail end of her coming in and, you know, just her, her not understanding the culture and asking, why do they do that? Made me start looking back and going, why do we do that? What, what is, what are double breasted suits? Why am I preaching that a man needs to wear a double breasted suit to be closer to God? Like what is no sideburns? You know, I mean, I always have to cut my sideburns off at the lobe of my ear. Like just, I think I started seeing how ridiculously funny some of these rules were. And on the other hand, how sad that we were dying on the Hill for some of these man-made traditions that aren't in the Bible. And that's what I love about my wife. Even now to this day, everything she does and ask goes back to the Bible and God used her really to, to rescue me, if you will, from this legalistic mindset. Cause I, boys, I was preaching at heart. I mean, I was preaching, you know, hell is hot and turn or burn. And you're not giving out tracks every day. You know, you're going to hell in a handbasket. And I was preaching. I was, I was a very legalistic student pastor. I, you know, we've talked a lot about, I wish I could go back to those first four or five years in student ministry and apologize to all the students that want nothing to do with God now, because I was trying to get them to God. You know, and my wife, I, God used her for sure to be a discipler in my life. Okay. So let's move to this, this next part. We may spend some time here and this will be sort of the last question that may spur on many questions. So be ready as my mind works, but what would be some tips or help or, or that kind of thing that we could give to someone listening to this to combat legalism affecting your family? You know, like you've already said how it's not just IFB. This stuff can show up in everyday life just because of our sinful, uh, human flesh. Uh, you know, this, this, this tendency we have to want to, uh, just appear on the outside. So as it relates to family, what are some things we can do to fight that? Hmm. I think striving to, for that wholeness and that oneness is a very important step. Uh, I was kind of taking down some notes, you know, thinking about the vehicle of marriage that God uses. And I think there's some, some steps that the, the ultimate goal is intimate oneness, where we reflect Jesus and we serve him together. And I believe there's a few things that are necessary to achieve that serving together. Cause that, isn't that the goal to serve together in ministry to not just be, oh, he's the pastor. I'm just pastor's wife in the IFB. That's how it is. You got the pastor and then the first lady and the first lady is just supposed to do all her stupid stuff. But I like, man, the, the joy of serving together is phenomenal. I think there's some things that one, we've got to be fully known and understood, which, I mean, we can't feel like we're the one with someone who doesn't know, but we both are able to share our thoughts and feelings and dreams freely. Uh, I think that kind of flies in the face of the IFB culture is that the man is the man of the house. I mean, Cody Zorn sang the song, you know, women, even if you're right, keep your mouth shut. I mean, what is that garbage? You know what I'm talking about? Sorry, I caught out a name. I don't know if y'all do that on your podcast. Okay. Um, but you know, I mean, like giving, giving her a voice took down some of that conflict in there, not just woman, this is my way, but understanding that we're fully known. I think that the need to feel loved, I think to be connecting regularly, emotionally, sexually, and spiritually, I believe we're threefold beings. And so we've got to feel like we're the ones involved cultivating all aspects of that relationship. I think there's another area where, you know, when things are may hinder oneness, like conflict or hurt, those things have to be dealt with effectively, not just submit. I think submit is an out, uh, submit woman. You just need to submit. I believe that's just kind of an out that people take because it's what they grew up in that culture. Feeling one again, that, you know, things can be swept under a rug. We've got to make peace, not just keep peace because we can't have oneness. If we're focusing on being a peacekeeper, we have to deal with our problems. And then I think another way that we've really learned is just to serve the need of each other. I think both spouses need to feel supported because we both have needs. Um, what is it, uh, isn't it Ecclesiastes four that, you know, two are better than one? Like, you know, we're in this together. How can two, you know, we we've got to, we've got to walk through this together. So I think oneness where it can go off track and how we can support each other is that if a person's needs are deemed to be more important than the other person's needs, that's where you start finding some conflict in there, we're, we're both in this together. You know, ministry is us. It's not me. It's us together. And so I totally forgot what your question was, but I think that, you know, looking in some areas where we're together in this, what was your question? Yeah, no, that was just some tips and help to help, uh, fight against legalism affecting the family. And I think that oneness aspect is, is huge. I mean, what's the old quote, uh, by Matthew Henry that, um, God did not create, uh, Eve from the heel of Adam to where he could rule over her. He did not take Eve from his head so she could rule over him, but he took him, took Eve from his rib to be by his side next to his heart. You know, she's right there next to him. You serve together, you grow together, you go. And I think another aspect to that one, this part, I like how you said this whole idea of submitting, uh, is, is an out because, um, yeah, I, I tell the guys at our church, I said, things that should never come out of the husband's mouth is you should just submit. That should never come out of your mouth. Cause if you have to say it, you don't understand it because before that starts the verse before it says submitting yourselves. One yourself. And so you have to go first in love. And I use the example, I said, what is the, what is the, uh, the picture in that text in Ephesians five of the husband and wife? The husband is pictured as Christ. The wife is pictured as the church. And so I tell them, I said in that relationship, who submitted first Christ or the church? The Christ did. He submitted to the cross out of love for the church, to redeem the church. So, I mean, you don't have any footing to stand on as a man if you're approaching the relationship from that way. That is, I think, one of the worst things that's impacted the family in the, if you want to say conservative or fundamentalist type of church, is that understanding right there. So oneness, I think, is absolutely huge. I believe that's it in a nutshell, that you can't have oneness if one person is doing all the giving and the other one's doing all the receiving. And I believe that, you know, those relationships, it gets out of balance and you can't share your real needs and you can't be fully known. That means you can't make peace. You're going to have conflict. You're going to shove things under the rug and try to keep the peace and kind of do, let's be honest, what a lot of people do. They'll look very spiritual when they go to church, but then they're fighting like cats and dogs when they get in the car. I mean, you know, I mean, that's that every time we put things under the rug and refuse to deal with the issue, we're forcing an outward appearance at an expense of inward truth. And I believe that's what the goal of oneness really is. Yeah, that's so good. And so appreciate hearing that. Too many times we get this. It's all about me attitude. In worship, in church, it's I'm coming so I can feel good. You know, and even in marriage, when we get that attitude in church, it's going to bleed over into every other relationship in our life. And so we've got to put ourselves below other people. We've got to be willing to take up our cross. We said that last week and die daily, not only for the cause of Christ, but for the cause of every relationship that we have. You're right. And so I so appreciate that. John, any closing thoughts that you have? Well, I did want to jump in before we close down. I wanted to try to address this real quick. And that was what about parenting? Like, you know, I think that's one where it can really affect it because we could easily create an environment where our kids are supposed to look so and so. Where they're supposed to have this attitude of behavior. And I think all three of us being in ministry to avoiding that glass house syndrome of, you know, you're the preacher's kid or or something like that, which I know we're going to get into that when we have the PK kids podcast on our on our show. But, you know, what are what are some if you have anything maybe to send us off as far as some help towards avoiding that and in the realm of working with our children? John, are you are you asking him that because he's the old man on the show and he's got six kids or trying to figure out why you're asking him this? Oh, man, I feel like the old man on the show. Oh, I love it. I think I think if your goal of parenting and your main motivation is to get kids to obey you rather than teach on how to learn what's right on their own. I think you're varying into legalism in your parenting. I think one of the approaches focuses on making sure kids outwardly obey. The other approach that we need to take focuses on raising kids who will have a discernment to choose what is right. I think it's training the heart versus training the behavior. And a lot of the times what what preachers kids do and everybody knows PKs are probably the worst kids because they're there's behavior modification. How many times are y'all PKs? Either one of y'all? No, no. A lot of times growing up as PKs, you get told, hey, don't forget whose kid you are. It's that fishbowl that you live in. And it's just behavior modification when they look good on the outside. But they're the worst kids in town. I mean, my youth group growing up, the biggest drug dealer was the pastor's kid. I hear that story all the time. John Groves, no relation, by the way, on the PK podcast, you know, he's going to talk about that. And I think I just want to raise kids, man. Like they are in such a phase of life that I want them to love Jesus. I want them to own their faith, not because dad's a pastor, not because mom works in ministry, but to teach them to love Jesus because he's so good that he is a good father. And that I don't want them to have to fit a mold of what I think they need to look like because they're pastor's kids. And, you know, I think the church in general needs to give PKs not a break, but I mean, don't hold them to such a high regard. They're not the preacher. They're the preacher's kids, you know, and I think that's why so many go off and do crazy things. I love the church I'm working at now. My pastor has three kids. One's graduating high school this year. One's in eighth grade. The other one's 10 years old. And they are the most unpastor's kids you'll ever meet. Like, I mean, they show up, they do church things. And you know what he said? He goes, I want to raise my kids to be my kids, to not be the pastor's kids. And, you know, I'll be honest with you. As a parent raising six kids that are savages who need Jesus, I'm like, I'm terrified. And that's honestly why we call the podcast Recovering Fundamentals Podcast, because I think if there is still an area of legalism in me, it's how I want my kids to be seen from our church people. You know, when we show up at church events, I'm like, please don't run in the church. Somebody's going to think this is the house of God and you can't run in church. And I've been beat so many times for running in church. But, you know, I think there's still that tendency in my brain because of how I was raised that I want my kids to fit a mold. And, you know, I've had to pull my boys aside. I did this a few weeks ago, and we talked about this on our family podcast. But I pulled my boys aside, and I just looked at them in the eye and said, I'm proud of you for who you are. I love you for who you are. God has created you for a purpose and a plan. And I'm sorry if I put any external expectations on you. Be you. I'll be honest. I mean, none of my boys play sports. And, you know, it kills me because I grew up playing sports. They like Star Wars. Hello. Come on. Yeah, that's what they do. They play video games. I've never played video games in my life. But I grew up, I love my dad, but I grew up doing everything I could to gain his acceptance. And the freedom that comes when we break free of legalism, you've heard me say this on the podcast, we're living from acceptance rather than for it. And I want my kids to know that I love them exactly who they are, even though I have no clue what their world is like with Star Wars and video games. I'm going to try to do whatever I can do to be part of their world. That is not an out. I'm not going to sit down and watch Star Wars with them. Don't get excited there. But I want to do whatever. I want them to know that I love them no matter if they go into being a pastor someday or if they go to Bible school. If they go to be an engineer, I'm going to support them. I'm going to love them. You know what I mean? And I just want them to know I'm terrified raising kids, man. How many kids y'all have? Y'all have kids? Four. Three. Four. Daggum. We got some kids up on this show right here. So we got a bunch of them. But the thing for me is that as they grow up, I don't want them to, I don't want to become legalistic. And I don't know if y'all are like me, but I feel like parenting is the biggest place where I'm a legalist. Parenting is my biggest go-to where I slip back into that legalistic mindset. And I just want to raise kids that love Jesus, man. It's not behavior modification just to look good so dad doesn't look bad as a pastor. I just want them to love Jesus and to understand. And thankfully, I joke about it, but my three boys have all said yes to Jesus. They're followers. My girls, I hope it happens quick because I can't imagine raising these three without Jesus any more than what they are. They are divas and the drama level is at like Mach 10 right now, man. It's unbelievable. That's really good. And I think that that helps somebody because it helped me. Because one of the things that I've been trying my hardest is also recognizing my kids have different personalities. Yeah. You know, and I have to meet them many times on that where that personality is and not expect them all to be in this mold that I'm trying to. You know, I heard so much growing up, even through college and in my early years of marriage, that you got to break the wheel. You got to break the wheel. You got to break the wheel. And it was a revelation as I was going through biblical counseling training of like, that's not biblical. It's not. You don't break. Yeah, you don't break their wheel. That is nowhere in the Bible. But the Proverbs passage trained them up in the way that they should go. The original Hebrew there. And I highly recommend Chuck Swindoll's series on parenting with this because he like revolutionized that. That verse for me was understanding that God has created them in a specific way that is unique to them. And you need to help mold them and direct them into that way, not break them. Yeah. Because how many people that have gone through that mentality of breaking them want nothing to do with God now because they've been broken so much? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, that's my dad. My dad prescribed to the Gothard way, you know, for a long time growing up. And there's so many friends that grew up that way that want nothing to do with God now because their will was broken, but their soul was broken, you know, as a result of that. And that's really a tendency raising them as I see a lot of that, how I was brought up in me. And so I fight that. I think more than how legalism in my marriage, legalism in my parenting is really a struggle that I have to recover from that I'm working through. And if I could recommend a book, there's a book out there by Reggie Joyner and Kristen Ivey. It's called Don't Miss It. And it's called Parenting Every Week Like It Counts. This book has been one of one of the best things I've picked up on parenting. I mean, because it tells us we have exactly 900, approximately 936 weeks from the time our child is born until they graduate from high school. It goes by so fast. And the responsibility to shape our child's faith and character is overwhelming at times as parents. But if you're a parent, we've realized that we can't make a toddler share. We can't force a child to have faith. We can't compel a teenager to make smart decisions. But there's something we can do. We can make every week count. And so that's something me and my wife have started doing is like, how can we win this week? This is the last week that we are going. Like right now, our baby, Little Red, is three, I think. I really don't know how old my kids are. They're 11 and under. I know that much. But like our baby is three years old. And I'm like, this is the – she's potty trained now. And I was like, we will never do a diaper again. Like, you know, maybe a grandkid if there's a number seven that's not my kid. But, you know, I mean, just kidding. That's a horrible thing to say. Edit that out. But we – you know, like looking at it, like there's a lot of last that we're having. But there's also a lot of firsts. My oldest son is getting ready to go into sixth grade. And I don't want to miss it. I want to make the most of every moment so that I have the potential with what I do this week to shape their future. And to not just work on behavior modification. I want to see them grow. I don't want to miss what's happening during this phase of their life. And I won't miss important things that they need to know about in the future. And so I would encourage you to grab this book. It's called Don't Miss It, Parenting Every Week Like It Counts. This has been one of the best books that I've seen on parenting that is helping me not just say change so you don't make me look bad. Change so it appears that you're a good preacher's kid. But it's change because here's what the gospel can do in your life. And when we realize that we're sons of God and that the gospel changes everything, man, it helps our sonship just become phenomenal. That's awesome. That is awesome. JC, thank you so much for being on with us today, man. Man, I love being on here. You two just listen. Brian and Nathan always cut me off when I never get a word in. You guys just – this is what it's like to be Brian, just talking. Everybody else listens. I love it. Well, it's the old man on the show. That's why. We respect wisdom. Come on. We respect our elders. That's what it is. Hey, that's why I don't talk. Nathan and Brian, they're phenomenal. Like those boys are just storehouses of wisdom. And so I just get to throw in a jab every once in a while and some comedy and go with it. And I love it. Hey, I'm proud of what y'all are doing with For Freedom Podcast. We are absolutely thrilled that y'all are part of the RFP Network. And thanks for doing this RFP Network mashup. I love it. So it's been a great time. And I pray that y'all's downloads just keep coming in. And we're continuing to spread the truth because truth never fears a challenge. And y'all keep taking it to them. Well, great. And hey, we're looking forward to our meetup in Missouri. Y'all coming. We're planning on being there. So we're going to have our For Freedom shirts on. And we're excited about being there. Bring your merch. We have none. So we'll bring everything we've got. Here's what we need to do. We need to create an RFP Network merch store that has T-shirts. Hey, Justin Knight. I'm going to call Justin Knight right now. We're going to get on this because I think it'd be awesome. We need to get Will Hess and Brian. Is it Bode? Brian Bode. We need to get them to Missouri. Yeah. Where's 26 letters? Where are they from? I forget. Johnson City, Tennessee. They're about two hours from me. So they're close. They're even closer. We need to get everybody up there. That'll be good. I'm glad y'all are coming to Bourbon, Missouri, man. That's going to be a lot of fun. We're excited. I'm so fired up to meet so many people that we see on social media that we've never gotten to put a face with a name. So we want you to come be part of – I'm going to give a little plug for the meetup. We want you to be part of our meetup. We got one June 5th here in Statesboro, Georgia. But that's not the fun one. The big one is going to be in Bourbon, Missouri, August 26th, 27th, and 28th. You can go to recoveringfundamentalist.org. Click on the tag meetup and sign up today. Spots are – I think we're capping it. I don't know if we're capping the Bourbon meetup. But, man, it's going to be awesome. You can come meet for Freedom Podcast. Come on. You can meet the church split. Matt Dudley with his cool hair is going to be there. Brian Edwards and his cane is going to be there. I'm just kidding. He doesn't have a cane. Oh, see, he's not on here, so I don't have to worry about him crying because I called him old. Yeah. Listen, I want to give Brian a shout-out. Yesterday was his 30th anniversary at his church as pastor. Yeah. Come on. That's incredible. I was eight years old when he started pastoring at that church. How incredible is that? I was two, so. I love it. Guys, this has been fun. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, man. Absolutely. And we appreciate everybody listening today. And we pray that you will be helped by the truth that was shared and drive you closer to Christ. And share the podcast. Like it. Give us a review on Apple Podcasts. And until next time, to God, not legalism. Be the glory. Peace. Thank you for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give a rating, leave a comment, or share it on Facebook or Twitter. To find more helpful resources for your journey through the independent fundamental Baptist world, check out RFPNetwork.org, where you can find this podcast and others, such as the Recovering Fundamentals podcast, the RFWP podcast, the Young Baptist podcast, the Church Split, the Preacher's Kids podcast, the 26 Letters podcast, and the RFP en Español. God bless. God bless.

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