75. RFP Crossover Event with the Grow in Grace Podcast - When Legalism Hurts and Grace Heals

I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. Those that criticize this kind of preaching, they don't like authority! If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got... Hey, if you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. And it'd be surprised. Son, don't go to sleep while I'm talking. Hey, hey, hey, don't you lay your head back. I'm important. I'm somebody. I love you. You know I love you. Have I convinced you I love you? You better nod your head yes, are you? Come on, put it right there. Stay awake and you listen to me. I still believe if you have cold day and healthy, I get my balance with a woman. I'm a preacher. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP network that seeks to bring freedom in Christ from the spiritual abuse of legalism. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. But I think bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome back, guys. John just told me that I was introducing. So we are excited about starting this interview. We started this series months and months ago, just a mashup of recording with a different host of the network. And so leading up into the meetup coming up in just a couple of weeks, we are going to be interviewing each of the podcasts on a mashup event. So today we're excited about having the Growing Grace podcast with us. They're going to be with us in November, November 4th and 5th. They're at Danville, Virginia. And so we are excited. I've enjoyed listening to their episodes. I've enjoyed listening to their interviews with Amy. We had Amy on one of our top episodes we've ever had. Just such a great thing there. And they've been doing some great stuff on the doctrine of God and who he is and just some great stuff there. And so me and John are excited to have them with us today. And we're going to be talking about how legalism hurts and how grace can heal. And so that's sort of our topic for today. But ladies, welcome to the show, Shana and Kristen. I keep calling. I want to call you Kirsten. I don't know why. But Kristen. You want to call every Kristen Kirsten. I guess so. I don't know. I've noticed that with you the entire time we've known each other. Every Kristen is a Kirsten. I don't know. Man, I don't know what it is. You were going to say, is there a Kirsten in your life that you're just talking about? I've had two teenagers that are Kirsten. One is at my church now and one is at my former church. And one was called Kiki and the other one we call Kirsten. So I don't know why. But yeah. Kristen and Shana, welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. Shana. Shana. Oh, Shana. You did it, though. Good job, John. S and K. Here we are. S and K. There you go. Well, welcome. Ladies. Ladies. Ladies. I don't know. What are we even doing here? What kind of shallow person do you want to become? Recovering from fundamentalism or something. They're everywhere. I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. If there's such a word, you're stupider now. Don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and we'll all flub up together. Yes, we do. We love your podcast. I have listened to every episode and I keep thinking, all right, this is whenever I see like the title, I'm like, okay, this is probably gonna be the episode where, you know, I find something I just don't necessarily, you know, a hundred percent still, you guys are like, I'm like, these people are spot on. I think I agree with everything they're saying. It's so great. So yeah, we really appreciate it. And think it's what you're doing is fantastic. Thank you. It's okay if you don't agree with us too. We always say that. We love that. But, you know, it makes our lives easier when you do. But it is, honestly, it's really, it's been a joy. And Kristen and I say all the time, if, you know, the Lord put this on our heart to do. And so we're hopeful that people get something out of it. But really, if they don't, what we personally, just in studying and have gotten out of these episodes and the doctrine of God has been worth it. So we're really, really encouraged with where we're going. It's great. It's great. Well, why don't you go ahead and give us an introduction to our listeners of who you are, your background story, and we'll jump into the show for today. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So my name is Shanna. Shanna. Shanna. Yeah, I grew up in a Christian home. My parents loved Jesus, loved the church, very IFB. And so I understand, you know, I come from a very, very conservative family. Grew up, I always thought very deeply about God starting at a young age and being a woman that was not always easy, right? There's lots of questions I had. And I wanted to be in all the deep conversations, even as a kid. And I think maybe that's why I feel bent toward children's ministry is that I think kids can think deeply about God too. But I think being a woman, it was just difficult. And it stayed with me though. And I went through school and ended up going to Bible college, which is, this is like a very brief story. It's where I met Kristen, actually. And we just always had these conversations, Kristen and I did, where we were like, why aren't women having these conversations? And they were, I know that now, not in our circle. They were not, they were not having these conversations. And growing grace just kind of came out of a lot of late night, like 2 a.m. conversations of theology and how God calls us to think deeply. And so that's kind of where we're, that's where I'm at. Kristen can speak for herself, but I am, I'm serving in my church now. I write curriculum for our kids and we teach, we teach our kids like the deep things of God. And I don't think looking back, and we probably will get into this when we're talking about legalism in a little bit, but looking back, I don't think that, you know, nothing is wasted. So all those years of like, it felt like a desert. I can look back and it's like, man, that was, that was times when I was really learning and it felt like a dry season, but I'm seeing all of the fruit of it kind of now in our ministry and what we're doing. And so, yeah, that's really sweet. I live here in Dallas, Texas. I have two children that I homeschool. I have a six-year-old little boy and a nine-year-old little girl. I've been married for 12 years now. And yeah, I'm just being faithful with what God has in front of me right now. That's great. And you're only about 45 minutes south of my sister. She lives in Allen, McKinney, Texas. And so, yeah, she's, she's right down, right down the road from y'all. I was there. I flew into Dallas last Thanksgiving. Okay. Well, let me know when you're ever in town. I will. About bankruptcy last time. I don't know if we'll do it again. Flying five kids all the way across. It's a tough day in a week. Or five kids. Five of us, not five kids. Three kids. Five of us. No. So, yeah. That's expensive. We are, I think we're bringing my whole family, actually, to the meetup. And we were like, should we fly? I was like, mm-mm. Even two kids. I'm like, we're driving this thing. That's right. That's right. So, well, great, great. Kristen, tell us your story about who you are. Yeah. So, as you said, my name is Kristen. I, so I grew up on the mission field. My parents were missionaries in Panama. And so we were there for about the first 12 years of my life. And that's primarily where I was most exposed and kind of in that IFB world. Still the fringes later on, but for sure as a missionary and just with other missionaries around us that were a lot more conservative and kind of my dad just, he was taught in the IFB and came out of that. The school, the college that he went to is the college that where Shannon and I both met. So they were very much IFB, but it was more of a, this is kind of how he was always taught. So this is how he always went along with it. And so therefore that's how I was brought up. So when we, probably in my early, probably when I was about 10 or 11 years old, my dad started kind of searching the scriptures. God started moving on his heart that, you know, to really start taking the things that he was teaching and saying, and kind of that we kind of, as just a community, we're believing to really start taking those against scripture. And that's kind of where our path started to deviate from IFB. But I still went, when we came back off of the mission field, I still went to an IFB high school. I still went to a college that would be considered in the IFB, or at least at that time was, I don't know if they would consider themselves now to be in that. And so I still had a lot of the influences through that and got to see a lot of it, especially with my friends in high school. And, but that's kind of my experience with legalism and IFB. And then of course I met Shanna and our friendship just kind of has grown from there for many, many years. And now I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio. I don't have any kids. I have a dog and a cat, which you might hear today because they just get crazy sometimes, but just serving in my local church and trying, as Shanna said, trying to be faithful with what I have and what God has given me. And being able to have, being able to have a podcast is really cool. Being able to have a podcast with your best friend and talk about theology is just the greatest thing ever. So that's kind of where I am at. That's great. I'm glad me and John, we get to do the same thing. And we're amazed every week that people get, want to listen to us voluntarily listen. You know, we don't have to make them listen. They just listen, which is great. And so six months ago, you guys started growing grace. It's probably hard to believe it's been six months. But April is when your first episode came out. And so we're just, y'all are finishing up your six months. And you guys, y'all were at the Bourbon Meetup, right? If I remember correctly. Yeah, we were all there. And that was a great time. I don't think we actually ever, we didn't meet you guys, but one of you shared your story. Shanna did. Shanna did. Okay. Yeah. I thought one of you did. I couldn't remember. I was back there on the couch, like dog tired. Did you sleep through it? John's always tired. He has no life. He's an old fart, man. You know, sleep apnea is not fine. Wear your mask. Come on. The mask is terrible. It's not. It's great. I get less sleep with the mask. This guy. Listen, if you sit with John long enough, you'll start feeling his pity party too. Oh my goodness. So six months ago, you guys started your podcast. What is the goal for your podcast? Where do you see things going? What do you hope to happen out of it? You know, me and John, we started, or John started this almost two years ago, or I don't even know how long ago it was. And we've even changed our direction over the last six to eight months of where we're going and sort of the help we're trying to give. What's y'all's goal? What's your thought on the podcast? Want me to go? Yeah. We, when we started this, we were very intentional with just, we want people, and I'll say women, because that's really our target. I mean, you guys listen, and we have men that listen, but we want people to think with their minds deeply about God. And so we started off with just the doctrine of God, like what, like who is God? And laid a really solid foundation for that. And then we're moving in now into like studying the word and how to do that, you know? And we want to have a very solid foundation with that. Before we even tackle deeper topics that we will, we have every intention of hitting. And, but right now our goal is to get people to think deeply about God so that they can love and know him better. And with their minds, we say this all the time, we're not going to give an account to God for my husband's mind or my pastor's mind. I'm going to give an account to God for mine. And so that is really, I think that's really our heart behind that. And like going forward is right now, these first six months, we, we're blown away sometimes of like the messages that we get from people. And we're just like, we had no idea that, like we said, if this would reach anyone, us and our moms, we're fine with that. Because our moms are, our moms are like our biggest fans. But if it's just us and our moms, we're fine. Um, but to have women say, man, I was really challenged by that. And now like it's making me want to dig deeper here. And that's really, that's really encouraging. That's what we want to do. We want you, we say this all the time. People may not agree with us and that's okay. We want you, we want our podcast to be like a starting point for you to think deeper and for you to search the scriptures for yourself. And so that's kind of, that's what I would say. Kristen, do you have anything to add to that? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think we just found that kind of the purpose behind our podcast. We just found, as Shanna said, we were having these conversations, but we felt like no one else around us was having these conversations as women. Um, and we felt like the church by and large does not do well in general teaching theology, but much less women. And, um, it like almost like it was a gatekeeping type thing, like, oh, well, we're not men. So we can't step into that and, um, be able to talk about those things or learn. Um, and so you had to kind of go to outside things, um, outside resources. And so because of that, we wanted to provide another resource and be able to, like Shanna said, invite people to be able to study these things with us and think about them. Um, and just really give a good foundation of who God is. And, um, because we found that as we were having discussions, even with other people, um, it was in other women that they were having the, that they didn't necessarily have a right view of God. And so therefore, if you don't have a right view of God, if we started tackling some of these other topics that we want to eventually get into, um, it was going to be even harder, um, to, um, explain that God is a loving God. He's a gracious God. He's a holy God, but, um, he, there's also this whole other aspect of God that sometimes we weren't taught. And so, um, that's kind of why we started with that, but we're super excited to be able to get into, um, the other topics that we have when, when we get to them. Yeah. The, the sentiment that you guys sort of expressed that going back to the early days of your, your friendship and growing together of sort of unsure if other women are having these conversations, I guess that leads us to this question. Like, is that an aspect of how legalism affected you guys, you know, and maybe in, in some of your interactions with other women since you've been doing this has affected other women? Absolutely. Um, I would say without a doubt, I even think of specifically, um, going to college and the, the courses and how they had laid out the courses that you were supposed to take. So I was an intercultural studies major, which is a missions major, um, and how devoid of a lot of those theology classes I was compared to what the men were taking. So, um, they were getting a lot of those theology classes, whereas I was getting maybe a class. Go ahead. Say it. What, what do we call it? What do I, I haven't even referred to it. It was like, how to be a godly wife and mother. How to be a godly wife and mother, basically. Which isn't a bad thing, which isn't a bad thing. But I don't know if I need to pay. We should be godly wives. Right. But I don't know if I need to pay money at a college to take that course. Um, well, one could argue that a great way to be a godly wife is to learn about God. Yeah. You know, the theology aspects of it and maybe a little bit. Bingo. And that some of those things should be coming out of the local church, right? Out of discipleship to be a godly wife and mother should be coming as a byproduct of the local church and discipleship, um, or like how to teach kids with flannel graph, I think is a class that I took. Um, mind you, that's in the early 2000s. Really stood the test of time. Right. Exactly. Um, so we're real prepared. That's not true. You're making that up. No. Absolutely. We had a class. I absolutely had a presentation. I'm here to see your binder. With a... She might still have it. If either of us have it, it's me. I still have every one of my binders from college and my wife gets so mad at me. I just, I recently had a, had a nice little burning in the fire pit. Come on. Come on. I like fire and that was, that fueled the fire. So. Amen. That's hilarious. But yeah. So, I mean, that was just, uh, one aspect of it. And I know, um, it probably is spoken to at a deeper level of just the lack of discipleship, just in general. Um, but especially for women, just, um, it just never felt like a, that we were, that it was, that it was never just a priority, I guess, to really learn. And even as something as basic as, um, studying scripture, and we've talked about this on our podcast of like, we would be told, read your Bible. Okay. Like, uh, but when, when you're talking about studying scripture, there, there's a little bit more that goes into it than just sitting down and reading it. And I mean, we went through, we were both raised in a Christian home. We went through countless churches, uh, through Bible college before we actually learned how to study our Bible and really study scripture. Um, so I don't know, I'm sure Shanna has other things to say about it as well. No, I think you, you really, you really, um, you really said that. I think that I remember like back, um, in my home church and like growing up, a lot of our women's Bible studies were based on things. Right. And, and, and I think while those things, whether it's anxiety, Kristen, also, you have a book for me, the sin. Oh yeah. I know that whether it's anxiety and you're going to do a study on anxiety, good and well. Okay. I think that's amazing. Uh, also, I think that's also how we, we get a lot of, um, legalistic tendencies is just pulling out scripture verses to fit our narrative without reading it as a whole. And we were never taught to do that. I mean, my bachelor's is in Bible and I'm in my thirties and I'm like, okay, I can see this as one big story now. Um, and I can see how everything kind of fits into that story, including my own story. And I think that that's, uh, if anything, looking back like a bird's eye view of my life, it is, I can quote the scripture to you, um, not in context. And I think that's how legalism hurts women a lot. That's a great point because I feel like that a lot of that with my wife, she, you know, she's, we've had many conversations over the past two years and, um, you know, these verses will pop into her mind and she'll say, what about this? And I was, you know, it'll, it'll be quoting a verse and it'd be like, well, you know, let's, let's look at the whole context. And, and as she's grown, you know, I think that it's what you guys sort of brought up. I was thinking about that concept of being a godly wife and mother, you know, it's a lot of times I think it's not just the, the legalistic cultures that do that. I mean, you go to most women's Bible, small group or Bible studies and they're of the same thing that I don't know if you ever, at least Fitzpatrick has a book, um, that she did that my wife went through. Oh, it would be so perfect for, um, women in the RFP community. Um, and I can't think of the name of it right now, but it's, it's a, it's a study that she goes through talking about like burdens that we place in our backpack and that kind of thing. And she, she sort of, uh, gets a little aggravated. She says, most studies you go to Lifeway or I don't know if she calls out Lifeway, but if you go to most studies of like, uh, Christian bookstores, it's either on Titus two or, uh, Proverbs 31. Proverbs 31. And she said, no woman can live up to be the Proverbs 31 woman. And it was sort of like, everybody got a laugh. She's like, but seriously, she said, why don't we, why don't we, why aren't we teaching our women, you know, 99% of the rest of the Bible. And that's where all of the studies, you know, end up gearing towards. Exactly. Well, and to take it even a step further, a lot of times, um, women, especially as mothers are tasked with bringing up the children and they do a lot of that, not that the husbands don't as well, but they tend to spend the bulk of the time with them. Um, and if they're not being taught theology, what are they then teaching their kids? Like, wouldn't you want for your kids to grow up with a proper view of who God is? Wouldn't you want your wife and your, the mother of your children to have that teaching as well so that they can disseminate that from the very beginning and from bringing up the kids from a very young age so that they're hearing, you know, the glory and majesty of who God is and how that affects and how that should change our lives. Um, I've always thought that that was strange. And also, you know, a lot of Sunday school teachers are women. And so we've tasked and we've said here, teach these Bible stories, but not giving a bigger picture of what, how those things, um, kind of go with each other. And like you said, the bigger story of the narrative of scripture. I think a very practical example of what you just said. I mean, literally like this week, um, my daughter has been the best sleeper. Like she's amazing. She's nine. And lately, and it's been this, this just biggest fear that she has. And it's, uh, it's spiritual. The whole thing is spiritual. And someone made a comment to her that, um, whenever you have bad dreams, it's just Satan trying to get in your head. And I was like, Oh, okay. Like that. Exactly. That face is the face I gave. And so, so like, it's been like days of us, like kind of getting to the heart of that, not that she was just scared, but there was a reason behind that. And so I'm like, you know, last night we were having this conversation. I was like, honey, I don't want to hear about the enemy right now. I don't want to hear about Satan. I want you to tell me who God is. And we, we framed it to where her focus was on who God is, um, and what he can do and the truth of that and not like what the enemy could do or her fears or whatever. And I think I was just thinking that would not have been me. I was terrified of the rapture when I was a kid. I'm like, I'm going to wake up and no one's going to be here. Thank you. I left behind. But I don't like, I don't want my daughter. I want her to have this at nine, have this understanding and grounding in scripture and who God is at that is what her focus is on. And I'm thinking like, I would not have been that mom, you know, five years ago, even probably five years ago. Um, and so to say what, what Kristen is saying, like, it is so important, not just for our walk with the Lord, which is most important, but also for our, the people around us that we are, you're discipling people, whether you know it or not, you have friends that you're around, you're being discipled by outside things, whether you know it or not, and you're discipling other people. And so it's, um, yeah, it's something we're both very passionate about. Yeah. Um, I think we do a disservice or injustice to Titus two. If all that we're teaching is Titus two to our ladies. This was one of the conferences that we just started a, a ladies Bible study out of our church. And what they're learning is they're going through the book of Philippians and learning hermeneutics at the same time. Like they're learning how to study the scripture. And we put a lot of time into it. And we, the conversation my wife and I had was like, you know, Titus two instructs that who should be doing the discipling of women in the local church. It's the older women. But what do you have so often in the local church context with older women? They don't feel like they, they, they, they, I don't have anything to teach them about that. I don't know what to say to them. And so our goal was like, okay, let's change that. Let's challenge all of these ladies in this Bible study to grow, to be those Titus two women when they get to that age for the next generation, it comes up. Yeah. And that's one of the, the, the motivating factors of what they're doing. And so they like, they came and they are excited and they are so ready to dig into this. And it's not like we've, we've stacked them up. Like we've given them a lot of stuff and then extra resources to go to. But I think it's so important. I mean, the Bible never says that the men are supposed to be like, you know, we, and just so our listeners that don't listen to grown grace are clear, you know, Shanna and Kristen are very much believe, you know, the roles of pastors and, and, and that like, you know, James and I've, I've talked about before they're, they're not, they don't disagree with that. But I think that we, there's no sort of thing that says men should know more about the Bible than women should, or, you know, vice versa. It's, it's really a sad sort of commentary on the church. Yeah. Now they may disagree that they can't go to Israel with the pastors. But they don't disagree with the rules. You don't want to, you don't want us to hop on that right now. We really just want the great deal. Like it's such a great deal. That's really it. We'll go by ourselves. Just give us the deal. Love it. All right. So we've talked about legalism and we've talked about in general, you know, how it's hurt in the past, how it's affected us mentally, even in our young adult and as parents and as, as young people going through life, it's affected a lot of us, how we do things, but how, let's transition because your, your podcast is called Growing Grace. And so how can we take that thought of Growing in Grace and how can we take this and say, how can grace bring healing to the time of legalism? I love what Shana said earlier. Nothing. Did I say it wrong again? Shana. I said it right. What? I'm not. Shana. Shana. Oh, sorry. I'm going to get it right. Shana. It's fine. Shana. I love what she said earlier. She said, nothing in life is wasted. And if we take that concept and we take that thought and we apply it to every principle of our life, okay, even the times of legalism, even the times of things that were done, maybe unjustly or wrong or treated differently than what we should have been just because of who we were. How can we take that now? How can we take it and allow us to grow spiritually and to grow further into what God has us to be for our life? So how did grace bring healing to this? I'll go. Yeah, I think that, like you said, looking back, it is very, you can go two ways, right? You can be very bitter. And I think, honestly, if we're talking about it, this is where growing grace came from, is that we were seeing so many women bitter from their IFB days. And the counselor in Kristen is kind of like, okay, we have to get to the heart of this, right? It's okay to feel your emotions. It's okay to be angry that this happened. You can't stay there. And that is kind of where we were like, hey, God wants more for you, right? Like, this is not what God wants for you. I'm sorry. Kristen's cat is cracking me up. I saw it in the window and I was like, it's a cat. Wait, but whose cat? This cat originally was Shanna's. So that's another story. I don't have cats. Anyways, back to... Anyway, yeah. So one thing that I kind of want to... We're going to talk about grace, but kind of to piggyback on the legalism thing is that legalism is like an outward performance instead of an inward change. And I think that was where Kristen and I, we saw so many people, and especially, and I'll just say this now, especially as the recovering fundamentalists started coming up and we just saw so many women kind of coming out. Their eyes were open. And then they were just like kind of angry. Kristen, would you agree? And our goal is like, hey, that's okay. You can be upset. You can't stay there. And I think that's kind of how Growing Grace came about is God wants more for you. Yeah. And I would say not even we saw it in women. We saw it in ourselves. Yeah. We saw how the bitterness kind of was still lingering in there. And we were like, oh, that's not what we should be about. I think of being able to meet Mark Milioni at the Bourbon Meetup, who is now the president of the school that we went to, the college that we went to, and how helpful that was and healing that was to have a conversation. We probably, I can't even, I don't even know how long we sat there and spoke and talked to him. But for him to say, hey, I'm really sorry. One for, I mean, he didn't have to apologize. He wasn't at the school when we were there. But he said, hey, I'm really sorry that that was your experience. And that is why we are wanting to change kind of the experience of how it is. And I think that was really helpful for us to recognize. I don't think up until that point did we recognize kind of the bitterness that we were holding on to of how we had, quote, unquote, been wronged. Had we been wronged? Had we been held to standards that weren't biblical? Absolutely. But I don't think we realized how much we were still holding on to that until we kind of had that conversation and that kind of opened our eyes. And then that's really when we, I think, became a lot more sensitive to that of women that were recognizing and seeing the errors of legalism, but wanting to stay there and live there. And maybe not wanting to, but just not knowing how to grow past that and get out of that. It was very much a, I think that's absolutely correct. It's a, I don't know what to do now. If everything I have been taught is wrong or taken out of context, like I can't, what can I trust? Who can I trust? And so that's kind of how we were, man. Like there is so much healing. And Kristen, I'm thinking even like, so the Bourbon meetup, I flew into St. Louis and Kristen picked me up. And there was like, she was like, hey, Shanna, do you want to go this way? And it was like spring towards Springfield, toward Baptist Bible College. And I was like, hard pass. Like that was on the way to Bourbon. And I just keep thinking, even then I was like, absolutely. I do not want to go there. And then I'm sitting there and I'm like, I think that's the president of BBC. Like in this small little town in Missouri, that was the Lord. And I think that, I mean, that literally like that marks a point of healing, I think for me, for sure. And I think kind of growing grace was kind of born. Everybody has frozen. and his hand of protection in my life um of i alluded to the fact that my dad um had kind of started coming out and doing um some searching of scripture and now i look back and knowing the rebellion in my heart that i had as a teenager just in where i was not quite into legalism because my parents weren't that um into it i i kind of see god's guiding hand of protection over my life in that if we had i'm pretty convinced that if we had stayed as legalistic as we were um that it would have been a much different kristin now um i think i would have rebelled pretty hardcore and wanted to do my own thing um so even being able to look back and say wow i see god's hand in that in protection um and when he started um making that change within my dad's life that then led our family um in a different direction so being able to point back to that and see those things um is is a true treasure really i love it i love it and i i've i've always said the the the put offer to put on the the healing of legalism is grace or you could even say just the gospel is it's the gospel and i i love what you guys have done because if i had if i could do over starting ours i would probably go in the same direction that you guys did because i think that just my opinion here and working with those that are affected by and i believe legalism is spiritual abuse dealing with those that have been affected by spiritual abuse that one of the first things once they're ready to listen once they're sort of like okay you know they've some of that stuff has been sort of gotten through worked through and it's like okay now i'm ready to to learn i think the the first thing that they they need to get is is coming to a realization of who god is because legalism distorts spiritual abuse distorts your view of god and that you can take that back to the to the gospels you know what were the pharisees and sadducees doing they were distorting who god was to the people and jesus came in there and slapped them right in the face and said i'm god you know and they brought it right face to face with who god is and uh found wanting so i you know the way that you guys have sort of um started your podcast out by going through the attributes of god and god's character i i just absolutely love it because i think that's a great starting point i think that's the starting point for a lot of people is getting to know who god is because when you realize who god is yes is he a god of justice is he a god of wrath absolutely but that does not infringe upon his other characteristics which is he's got a love and a god of grace and a god of mercy they don't take away from each other and and that's something that i think was very misunderstood and misrepresented in at least the culture that i grew up in yeah no i would agree i think i was more scared than anything else i viewed him that way instead of like a loving father um i i was more scared and so i i would 100 i think i think that i beat as a great job of uh harping on instead of um he's not less love and more wrath like he's all the wrath of god like i was scared all the time and i loved him out of a fear and not because he was a holy god you know yeah it was always that sense of he was sitting up there waiting for us to step a toe out of line so he could bat us back into line and you know bring down judgment um and it's and that's you know when we first when we started and we were discussing starting our podcast and what we wanted those first few episodes to be we knew that the first one needed to be what is the gospel because like we were going to refer to that so often and then shortly after that was going to have to be um uh just a a writing of who god is like it was we tended we had a wrong view of god and uh still struggle with that right like i'm not gonna pretend that we have this all figured out um we there's still times when we see and we're like ah man i i'm still viewing god not the way scripture is telling us he is um and but it's so key because this is who we are this is who we are worshiping and who we are to know about um and so we need to have a right view of who he is yeah because your view of god shows up in just about everything that you're doing yeah like you can when you understand it practically you can watch somebody and listen to what they're talking about and you can peg what they think of god because it does it affects like somebody sent me an article yesterday of somebody presenting their their philosophy of ministry and everything and i was like while i can agree with a lot of what he's saying i said his theology of god is showing through him what he's emphasizing and what he's de-emphasizing and i couldn't i couldn't i can't get on board with that because he's putting a lot of the results on human means and not letting it rest upon god yeah that's been i know um speaking of that one of the one of the coolest things and things that has stuck with me and my dad probably shared it with me when i was 14 or 15 years old um was he said one of the turning points in his ministry was when he realized that how well he preached his sermon did not was not indicative of souls being saved like if he if he totally bombed the sermon he said there was times when he would just completely beat himself up that like souls maybe there was a soul there that needed to be saved and he would take that burden on himself but um and that's a wrong view of god's role in salvation right that he is in control and that he is the one that does the drawing and that he is the one that he uses us but that ultimately he doesn't need us and that it is not um that that responsibility does not weigh on us as we're giving the gospel right and so um it's one of the things that has stuck to me with me about what my dad has said he said when that clicked when that changed when he realized that now that didn't diminish the preparation that he needed to do but if things happened and in i mean in the hispanic culture like kids are running up and down the aisle sometimes during the sermon and my dad would get frustrated and be like but this is a distraction and people might not hear and he realized that when that wasn't his responsibility that it was god that does the same that it is god who does or the holy spirit that does the drawing um that that was a very free moment for him and um yeah it's the same way in the counseling room too you know i pray a lot of times in the counseling room i'm like listen i i can't change this heart that's in front of me that's only that's god's work yeah and don't let it rest on me like don't let me sit there and think that either i'm going too hard or too intense trying to do so or um judging myself afterwards because of maybe that aspect but you know judging on on what god has put out for me to judge and so you know absolutely it's just it's it's so important it's so important and i think that's why you know driving people to who god did who god is is is vital um i think what we wanted to sort of conclude with is and you guys can handle this however you want if you have each have three or you tag team it i don't know but maybe some three practical ways to identify legalism in your life let's talk to let's talk to the listeners so they're they're coming out of this they're growing in grace now but you guys know that you still have those remnants inside that's just like still hanging out there that you don't know i hate legalism right yeah i'm i'm so against legalism but yet we still have those remnants of the legalists still and and it may be pushed on somebody else or it may be the element of what we're judging ourselves by you know what are some some practical ways of uh identifying that i really love that question because you know i've i have been very local about this like um i am in counseling right now for perfectionism and i a hundred percent think that it's a byproduct of growing up in the ifb and with legalism it was very much uh i said this the other day and like i just i literally saw people cringe um i was always taught that god doesn't deserve a hundred percent he deserves 150 percent and i'm like i can't i can't do that you know like you're setting yourself up for something that you can never attain um and it's just always this like this climb that you'll never reach and it's just it's draining like it is completely draining and so for me one of the one of the practical things um when i am um when i am like kind of dealing with something or looking at with um looking at something is is this about me am i the focus right now or is god the focus right now um and almost every single time if the focus is on me it's something i'm doing is trying to take it you know into my own hands and um and so i don't know i would kristen would you add like that's just one thing i think when i personally am am i'm dealing with legalism okay is this a standard that god has given in his word and we're actually right now our next episode is on legalism and the law and so i kind of love that when you guys suggested this i was like this is perfect because it's kind of what we're what we're studying yeah yeah and so it's like you know the law is a good thing we don't ever want to say that the law the law is like terrible you know like it teaches us to live in god's world god's way um but grace is how we do that right like that grace is how we do that and so for me it is we really framing um is this focused on me and what i'm trying to attain or is this focused on what god can do through me yeah i think it's funny that you said the way you said that um shanna because i definitely when i was looking through this and thinking through three practical ways one of my first ones was well does god say it in the bible because that's like a pretty you know a pretty straightforward one and i'm a very straightforward blunt person um which is fun in the counseling room to temper that um but um it's it really is like i i just find in my life when there are those little like kind of poking out types of legalism that are just kind of warming their way and um a lot of times i just have to go back to scripture and i have to say okay where did this come from like and it takes having to go back and think okay when was i taught this like how did i come about to believe this thing so a lot of times it is kind of tracing it back like was this something that my parents taught was this something just out of the culture that i was in that i started to pick this up and then going to scripture and saying what does scripture say about this like where does god what does god talk about this so there are some things that some people deem as legalism that i believe god says in scripture that this is how it should and shouldn't be that's not legalism that is god's command and we are still called to keep god's commands like he says if you love me keep my commandments like there is still that aspect that we are called to keep god's command so i would not put that in the legalism category even though a lot of people might um but so for we're always trying to go back to scripture and see okay what does scripture say about that um which requires you to know scripture and be able to go back um and be able to study scripture so um that was one of i know i know it seems like a cop-out but that was one of my practical ways i was like what does scripture say because that is our standard well i think also sorry i think also like in mark it says um like the pharisees were you know were coming to jesus and they were saying like um why do your disciples not walk in the tradition of their elders and jesus rebukes them right and he's like you leave the commandment of god and hold to the tradition of men and that has always stuck with me as i'm like what is tradition and what what's the commandment of god you know um and i think but it does take i don't kristen i think that was a fantastic answer because it's always bringing it back to god's word it's always bringing it back to god's word and i want to say it's as easy as abc but it is getting in in scripture that's i mean that's really that's really it yeah and you know for me thinking back in in college i didn't in bible college i didn't i didn't buck the rules many times i didn't you know but i would often think why is this rule here it's not in the bible why is this rule even a rule that we have to do because it there's nowhere in scripture for it and in my mind it was you know i'm here it's a rule i'm gonna follow it no big deal but in the back of my mind that was my thought of why why is this even such a big deal why am i getting wrote up why is this thing even happening um and so that's that does cause some things in our life to cause us to rebel to cause us to to go when when legalism happens and there's no grace behind it there's no reason behind it and there's no there's no biblical ground for it uh in a bible college come on now you all of a sudden you start seeing some of these things happen so all right ladies anything else there for other practical ways sorry i had to step out for a minute there so i don't know what i missed that's okay we're just saying get in the word that's what we're saying good i know it's not three practical ways but um that and i i think it's just being aware that it's a a growing process right that once you step out of legalism or you're either open to what legalism is it's not an immediate like departure from it like you said it's always kind of has its roots in there because we were a lot of us for different ways you know i was in my probably mid-20s early 20s before we really started getting out of it and kind of having my eyes open to that um shanna's was different so everyone has different times that they were in it and degrees to what they were in it and so it's not a magic like switch that's going to be flipped that oh you're just real legalism and you're never gonna have to be on guard for it and like watch for it um it's something that is constantly going to um take needing to kind of examine yourself and examine your motives and examine where these things are coming from yeah and i would just add this is also a really simple answer um but we are formed like kristen said 20 years i mean that's a long time like and some people it's way longer than that like you're formed you know from like your your history and so it it's not a magic switch but what we can do other than getting in the word is just pray and ask the holy spirit like hey when i am um leaning more toward the the law or legalism instead of like remembering like that grace and truth came from jesus christ and that he um fulfilled the law if i cannot remember that like holy spirit help me do that you know i think so many times people want this checklist of things to do and you're like hey man like have you have you prayed about it like that's a great first step yeah yeah and one of the things that i i think that um i like to recommend is uh if you're still working through some of these things is is i think kristen had sort of touched on it you know where's your heart motivation at you know figuring that out and that can be very confusing time too of trying to identify that uh gospel treason by brad bigney is a fantastic resource of getting to that now the entire book is is more encompassing but in the middle of the book i think one of the chapters he gets into talking about this idea of being your own legalist and getting to the heart of the issue we actually james and i got to interview him uh several episodes back and um about that book but i highly recommend that book if that's where your struggle is at the time and i love what shana ended there with prayer because i think so many times if you some that's listening to this is they're going to cringe at this but you have to understand the nature of spiritual abuse sometimes in the middle of spiritual abuse it's hard for you to go to the bible it's where you need to go but you're not ready for it yet you because and you have to understand it this way because most of the times what's been brandished as the weapon that abused you was scripture taken out of context misused absolutely but you're gun shy with that and so therefore just pray go to god seek god you know fantastic worship music i'm really on this kick right now of experimenting um that chris and you like this i'm experimenting with counselees with when i give them assignments giving them also a worship song sort of ties to that and just sort of and i'm i'm i'm not really doing it because i'm saying this is what this could do they're coming back and i'm i'm recording like data of like what did this do for you how did this help and that kind of thing so and i'm really sort of on this kick of the the impact of rich theological solid music i really believe god gave us this medium this art form to work on the soul you think of some of the the hardest pieces of scripture are psalms of lament but what were they they were songs i this is something that i think shanna has heard me talk about in depth about that is that you know music is definitely something that sticks with you right like oh yeah it's not often that you're going to in the time of trials that you're going to turn around and be like oh i remember this really great sermon about this you might more often than not it's going to come to mind of a song that that gets you through that or that is easier to recall and so that's really cool to think of like you said in the counseling room of being able to use that and use these rich and it's why rich theological worship music and songs are so important because they're teaching us about god like we are learning and our theology is being shaped by these songs um and so it's very important that we make sure that theology in the songs are correct i could i could go on way too long about how many uh how many people it is well has helped through a hard time yeah um and if you've ever done any work in a nursing home like i did nursing home ministry bible college every sunday they're you're talking about people gathering their their minds are are gone but when you start singing these old gospel hymns they start singing along with you there's something to that yeah absolutely yeah we're sort of we're sort of just sort of chatting right now i was like we just got off sorry yeah james close your fault john it's your fault john well thanks for joining us today for the program thank you for the ladies here for coming from growing grace and sharing this great time with us uh we look forward to seeing all of you look forward to meeting you guys in person uh in november at the meetup if you haven't signed up go to the recovering fundamentalist.com.org.org.org and uh sign up for the sake of the gospel conference and i think there's one spot left for the israel trip if you haven't signed up for that go and sign up and join me and several other people that are going to be there and uh john until next time to god not the pastor be the glory thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast to find more content like this please visit rfp network.org to find more podcasts like this one resources and meetups to encourage you on your journeyrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrew

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