221. Crossover Edition - James Spurgeon and The Texas Baptist Crucible

Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. What a wonderful day it is to be in the studio recording with me and old Bredicus. I want to come and just thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in. And we could not do this and would not do this if people didn't listen. And so we do want to thank you for being a part of the For Freedom Podcast and what we have going on. Thank you for tuning in to these last several weeks. We're looking through the Jim Jones stuff and the spiritual manipulation. But man, we are excited about the future. Brett, we've got a couple of weeks before we jump into our summer break. Summer, my wife told me this morning we've got 23 days of school left before school is out for them. And so, man, we are right around the corner this morning. At the time of recording this, I got to go to the local high school and I preached a sermon on being changed. Looking at the Maniac of Gadara, Mark chapter 5 to about 25 teenagers there at the public school. They had a Bible club. They meet every single week. And so we had a great time there. Lots of questions. I got to present a little bit about Israel. And some teachers were in there. Got to talk to them about some stuff. And man, it was just a great time just to be in there and sharing the gospel inside of a public school. You know, it really meant a lot to me coming from public school. And so, yeah, it's been a great couple of weeks and a great time. Brett, how are you doing? We haven't recorded since Easter. So how was your Easter? How were things? Or Resurrection Sunday? Happy Easter to our time. How was your time? Oh, man, everything was good. We had a great Easter. We had a great crowd. And the next Sunday, we had a really good crowd, too. So, you know, it's kind of like some momentum gained there. You know, it's interesting. You said you talked about Israel a little bit and preached to the kids. I'll tell you that this week, we had the Homemakers Association for Mississippi at our church. And so it was several. It was this county and several surrounding counties. So we had a church full of ladies that are part of this Homemakers Association. And they volunteer for the state. And I was asked to speak at it. I was asked to speak three years ago when I talked about Israel. And so I decided to talk about Israel again. But it was all the new stuff. It was all the new stuff that had been discovered, such as, you know, going up the Pilgrim Road and the Salon Cool where they had rediscovered that and the jail cell for Paul. We didn't get to go to that the first time because they had just discovered it. And so it was all new discovery. So I didn't give the same talk that I did three years ago. But it was a good opportunity. And church has been well. We've had some people baptized. Some people joined the church. And so things are going really good down here in Mississippi. I'll tell you what. I've got a senior. And you said 23 days left of school. I've got a senior. And he's about to graduate. So we just got his. We've homeschooled him since the beginning. So he's going to walk in our church. We just got his cap and gown and diploma. And he's winding down. We've got Bible drills today. He's on. We're going to be in a couple hours. We're going to be going to Philadelphia, Mississippi for my son's final Bible drill. And, you know, this part of his life is coming to a close. He did really good at the state drill. He only got three wrong. And that's really, really good. If he does that again, that might be good enough for nationals. But, you know, we're going to see how that how that goes. Do you all do Bible drills out there? I do not. I don't know what Bible drills is, my friend. Oh, that must be a Mississippi thing. Tell me what this is. Bible drills is where they put out a sheet and they cycle through year by year. They've got a children's sheet and a student sheet. And you memorize the verses. And then they've got a key passages where, you know, it's the you say the fall of man and the answer is Genesis three. And they say, go, you've got to turn to Genesis three. And it's like they give a scripture reference and you've got eight seconds to find the scripture reference. And they teach the kids the words of the books of the Bible. And, you know, it's all about scripture memorization. And so, you know, you stand there, they make the call. You've got eight seconds to find the scripture in your Bible. And if they call on you, you've got to read it. And it's difficult to do. Eight seconds is not a lot of time. No, it's not. You've got to flip through and find a verse in the Bible. It's really, really not. And you've got to know where in the Bible, you know, where that verse is. And for the younger kids, when they call a book, you have to give the book before it and the book after it. And so it's just a really cool thing. They've done it here since I've been here. So my kids have been doing it for the past four or five years. And, like, we're going to the state tournament today in Philadelphia. And if they do get past state, they're going to nationals. So we're looking forward to it. It's SBC thing. So it's like the nationals would be in, like, I would guess Nashville. I think they've had it there before. So it's a really cool thing. Is it like a blue, green, and red that says Bible drills and skills? Yes, that's it. Blue Lifeway, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen it. I looked at it. We were looking at starting my last church a Sunday night children's program. And so I had bought a sample packet so our lady could look at it, and she didn't like it. So we went something else with group or something. But I remember looking at that now. I just didn't know it was that. So, yeah, that's awesome. I love it. And, yeah, we had a great Easter as well. Had a wonderful time with family. We've got a family member of ours in May that's coming, my wife's cousin that's coming. She's going to be a missionary to South Africa, somewhere over in the Middle East. And so she's going to come and present on our Women's Day. And so I'm excited about that. But, yeah, the Lord's been blessing and been good. Man, there's been some crazy stories lately. We just got back from vacation, had a wonderful time with our family. And we are excited about what the Lord's doing in our families, in our churches. It's always good to hear. I heard a story today, Brett, when I was at the high school. That guy said that he was – they were attending a church, and they were about to leave because it had dwindled down to five people. And they were, like, on the brink of closing, and they were trying to figure out some type of revitalization. And this guy came in from just right down the road here and began preaching and accepted the call to be a pastor of five people. And he said he's been there about three years now, and he said we're up to 50, 60 people. And it's just a blessing to see that and to see that God is still in the reviving business. He's still in the revival business. And so it's great to see churches get new life and be brought back to life. Sometimes God doesn't see fit for that, right? Every church in the New Testament we can't find today, God saw fit for it to pass away. But there are times where it's good to see that revival of life. And we just had a church, and our association closes doors, donated the church property to the association. And so we turned around and gave it to a recovery ministry that is helping men with addictions of pornography and alcohol and drug use and other – just almost like a halfway house. And so they're going to start having Bible studies in it. And they had their first one this past week and just excited to have their own building. They've been just renting and using other random locations, and now they've got a building and a fellowship hall they can do classes in. And so we're excited about seeing God use that in a mighty way here in our area. Amen, brother. That sounds like we just had a recovery ministry open down the road from us. And so that's a really cool ministry. I'm glad to have the chance to do that. I'll tell you what's getting close is Orlando. Man, yeah. Got my SeaWorld tickets here for our time there. I still have to buy the Universal Pass. I'm still like – I can't believe I'm going to spend this much money to go to Harry Potter World. But I'm going to do it. And so we're going to bite the bullet and eat sandwiches for three weeks to be able to make the budget. I know. So it's a big ask. But, you know, I've never had my kids down in Orlando before. And so this might be the only opportunity I have. Hey, well, I got it. I'm thinking about it. Last year, you invited me to the Mississippi Baptist meetup that was there. They doing that again or not? Yeah, they do it every year. All right. So last year, we didn't do the North Carolina Baptist meetup. It fell through. This year, they are. Guess where they're doing it at? Monday night at SeaWorld. They've rented the SeaWorld out to themselves. And we're having a private penguin tour. Some roller coasters are going to be open for us at 9 o'clock. We're going to meet and have an ice cream. It's North Carolina Baptist and friends. So I think you guys could sign up if you all wanted to go. I don't know what you guys have Monday night. We're having a private conversation here. I didn't even think about it until just now. So if you want to jump in and go with us, that'd be great. Okay. All right. We'll talk about it. That'd be cool. Yeah. So, yeah, Orlando's coming up. And then we've got our Nicaragua trip. And then, as we always mention, if you want to go and be a supporter of our cigar company, that's available for you at 1689cigars.com. Backslash for freedom. You can just type in for freedom cigars and it'll come up. And we have four different brands over there and an experience box. Great things going on. I'm about to buy some new merch for that. My wife gave me an idea the other day. I'm really excited about. And so I'm going to buy some of that and have that for you to purchase. Just a great little way to support the podcast and have a brotherhood of fellowship. And so excited about that. I've been asked to write a little blog for the website. And I may share that blog on here. I may read it as a special podcast throughout the summer. Something that's near and dear to my heart. Often people have asked, you know, why do you smoke cigars? What's up with that? And so I just sort of put my words on the paper of what that experience is for me and what it means for me. And so hopefully you'll get an encouragement out of that as we share that here in the next coming weeks. But other than that, Brett, anything else before we jump into today's episode? I think that covers everything. All right. We're having a good friend of ours on the show. After our intro here in just a second, his name, you know him. His name is James Spurgeon. He came on several months back. And then after he left an interview with us, he went and started the Texas Baptist Crucible podcast. He was out of Bob Gray. There is Bob Gray out of Texas. And so he went to Texas Baptist College. And so we had a great conversation with him talking about where he's at and with the new Scott Gray stuff that came out. We talk about that a little bit and how he knew him, how he was a little younger than him. Scott Gray was younger than James. So we hope you enjoyed this podcast episode. Hopefully you'll share it with those that are around you. And thank you for tuning in as always. And I hope you have a wonderful day. Enjoy this interview today. Welcome to the For Freedom podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition. No man made code. Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing. That's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners. I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle. No room for fakes. I light one for liberty. Toast to the king. Every ash a sermon. Death has lost its sting. For freedom, he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified. Released. For freedom, he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified. Released. Let grace begin. For freedom, he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame. Now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. We are excited about having with us today, Mr. James Spurgeon, the grandson of Charles Spurgeon, the elite prince of princes. Always a pleasure to have you back on the show. Mr. Spurgeon, how is life and how are you doing? Last time we talked to you, you had shared us about the book that you had wrote, the Texas Baptist Crucible. I've almost finished reading it. It's over there on my shelf, right over there underneath the piece of duct tape. And it has been a wonderful story to read. But since then, you've actually started a podcast, the Texas Baptist Crucible podcast, and put out lots of episodes. And I've enjoyed listening to that. Tell us how you're doing and tell us about the podcast and how you started it and what led to it all. Well, you guys led to it all in a big way because when you had me on before to talk about the Longview Baptist Temple and the book that I wrote, gosh, almost 20 years ago, it got me really thinking. That and some other things, I got put in some Facebook groups with a lot of former members of Longview Baptist Temple. I had left that world so far behind that it was to go back into it was eye-opening. And I think I mentioned before, even as I was editing my book to be published again, I would start a chapter in my own book and not remember where it was going. That's how far away from all that I was. But when I got back into it, I realized just how much worse other people had it than I did. And it was eye-opening. I was thinking, this is far worse than I remember it. There's so many hurting people. I liken it to a person in the medical field just walking into a field where a bomb's gone off and where do you even start trying to help people. And helping people is why I decided to do it. And so, yeah, I started the Texas Baptist Crucible podcast. And I'm going to be honest with you, I am having so much fun with that. I probably have too much fun with it. It brings out my personality. And I just really enjoy it. Do you remember we had a cigar when you guys were in Dallas? I had a cigar with you, James, when you guys were in the Metroplex last year. And I remember you asking me, what are you going to do on the podcast? And how much do you have to talk about? And I remember thinking, I've got so much to talk about. I've got so many things to look at as far as what went on there at the Longview Baptist Temple that I can't see an end of it. And I can tell you here, I don't know how many months later this is, I cannot see the end of it. I got four conversations in the can, four Friday episodes in the can that I've just got to edit right now. And people hitting me every day wanting to come on. It's pretty incredible. Well, let me ask you this. Just without giving too much away, because I know you got your episodes in the can. You're looking forward to release those. But are there any interesting stories that you might can break us off a little piece of? And to kind of, you know, let us know what some of the things you've been talking about on your podcast. Yes. So a lot of what happened at the Longview Baptist Temple back in the day, and I try to keep it to that because I'm not there now. I don't know what's going on now other than what people tell me. That's all secondhand. That's hearsay. I want to talk about what it was like when I was there. Writing my book allowed me to tell my story, and it was very cathartic to just be able to say, hey, I'm making a record. These are the things that happened to me. A lot of the podcast is allowing other people to come on and tell their stories. And their stories are fascinating, and their stories are often worse than mine. Most of them went through a lot worse than I did, especially when it comes to the kids growing up there. The amount of abuse that went on is astounding. I'm talking about physical abuse of children. I'm talking about sexual abuse. I'm talking about psychological abuse. I'm talking about spiritual abuse from the pulpit. These kids were screamed at their entire lives. These kids were, you know, Paul said he was thrice beaten with 40 stripes, save one. These kids were beaten. I've had two different testimonies of, like, one guy told me getting 141 swats at one time. Another girl saying, yeah, I counted my sister. After I watched as my sister got 159, the abuse was just phenomenal. It was off the charts. And a lot of it is giving testimony to that. And so those are my Friday episodes, my Tuesday episodes. I try to do, I mean, if you want to look at it this way, it's the way I look at it. I try to do pastoral work. I try to say, point out, hey, this is what's wrong with the thinking. This is what's, you know. I've come so far spiritually since leaving there. There's so much I want to share that can help them. And I try to do that on the Tuesdays. I even did a little history of how do you get to an LBT. And I need to get back to that, too. And that was inspired by this podcast, by the way, by something your original founders, you know, did way back. He did a few episodes like that. And I kind of took off on that idea, too, to try to explain how do you get a Longview Baptist temple? And, you know, how do you, what's the appeal of it? Why would somebody think it's a good idea to go to a place where the preacher taps the microphone and embarrasses you and calls you out on a Sunday night and everybody cheers? You know, how do you even get there? And so, yeah, I've got tons of stuff. You could just pick anything. Just go through there and just pick one and listen to it. I think it's fascinating when you really begin to look backwards in some things as you begin to look at your past. And I was just today in a counseling session and we're talking about how, you know, how I even got to go to Champion and didn't even know about this little place called Hot Springs. But God's providence allowed me and it shaped me into who I am. And part of the story of your life and being there at LBC, LBT, was your interaction with Scott Gray and now with where Scott Gray is at now and everything that the Preacher Boys has been covering with Liberty, where he was at in Raleigh. Why don't you tell us about your interaction with Scott Gray and who he was while you were there? This is Bob Gray's son. So his second son or third son and sort of your interaction with him. And then maybe we can fast forward and look at what's recently been going on and sort of the culture that this mindset of LBT has set up and what Scott did and now in investigation for here in Liberty. So Scott was a friend of mine. So Bob Gray Sr. has four kids. The oldest one is Kim and then is Bob Jr. And then is Karen. And then is Scott. Scott's the youngest. So when I got there in 87, Scott was in high school. I think he probably graduated high school in 88. And Scott and another guy were my bus workers. I was a bus captain. Gosh, I think I started as a bus captain when I was a freshman. And they were my bus workers. So they were on my bus route. Like I hung, even when Scott went to graduate high school and went to the college, we were still friends. We played basketball. He was even considered, you know, he was caught up in as one of the rebels for a little bit. Scott was always, Scott introduced us to GLAAD a cappella, which was forbidden music. Which was kind of funny because, you know, relatively recently, I know there was some things going on about some guy in the IFB world got called out for some song that was over the top or syncopated or I don't know what. And Scott Gray was like defending him, you know, and hashtag unaffiliated. This is when he was still pastor. Scott even chaperoned, when he got married, he even chaperoned a date for me at one time when I was at TBC. And after I left and after I started writing Tales from the Temple and putting them on the Fightin' Fundamentalist Forum one at a time, and then right about the time I was publishing the book, I got a phone call from him. At this time, I had been gone for a while, and he's like, man, I want to know why you're trying to publicly trash my dad and all this. And I just said, Scott, is there something that I wrote that's not true? Because I'm just making a record. Well, you know, I said, if it's the truth and everything he did was right, then why are you calling me? And that's pretty much where it lay, and I haven't really, you know, spoken to him since. I don't have anything against Scott, but I can understand how someone in that world, we'll put it that way, would get in that kind of trouble. Because the man of God is not to be questioned. And they're in that world, the way they pastor, there's no accountability. And when there's no accountability, it's our sinful nature that says, oh, I can do this. It's not that bad. It's like when you tell a lie and you have to tell 10 other lies to cover for the lie that you told. And I can see how someone, I have no idea if he's guilty or not in what he's being accused of right now. I hope he's not. But I can see how someone could be in that situation where there's no accountability. And yeah, you know, you realize you can get away with this. And then you have to do a little bit more. Oh, I'll pay it back. I'll do this. And then it just spirals out of control. Isn't that the way sin works in our hearts? Absolutely. What's the old adage? Sin will take you further than you want to go, cost you more than you want to pay, and something along those lines. Keep you longer than you want to stay. Yes. Or like I saw on the church sign, the problem with little sins is they don't stay little. Yeah. Right. You know, no accountability is how a pastor runs up an embezzlement of $400,000 at a church. You know, we've heard these stories all the time. The man of God has no accountability. And, you know, he gets into all this trouble. And then he just goes and stayed over and everything's good. That's, you know, that's unfortunately, that's the culture that you propagate with that sort of man of God mentality. It is. It is. Brett, right before you move on, I want to, I'm trying to pull up the statement that had been mentioned. But as you said, allegedly there's $400,000 that had been embezzled through the church where he's at. And I know, James, you don't know. I'm sure you haven't talked with him or anyone. Maybe you have. But one of the statements that David Gibbs III had made when they were there and they did the internal audit and he was addressing the church. I think you said you had actually gotten the audio from that as well, or maybe with a truck driver or something. But David Gibbs III said it was the worst case of fraud or embezzlement that he had ever seen in his entire time of being an attorney in a religious organization over a period of two years. I want to just dig in because we're in a series and we're going to come back to this in just a little bit with the last question that we have. We're in a series with Jim Jones and spiritual manipulation and how Jim Jones was able to come in and manipulate people through his authority to leave everything they had and move to South America, Guyana. How does someone like a Scott Gray with being under Bob Gray there in Longview come here, do this? Was there a pattern of this there? Did you see this at all? Do you think this was just a slip up that continued to happen? Like, how does this happen? What goes on in someone's mind where they, in two years, I mean, $400,000 in two years. I can't even imagine that in a church structure like where I'm at. I don't know. Yeah, our church hasn't seen $400,000 in the years. I don't even know who gives it my church. We have a box in the back and they put it in there and the treasure takes care of it. And I have nothing to do with it. The church votes on the budget, like it is out of my hands. Yeah. And so, like, I could not be accused of anything like that. I could tell you that at the Longview Baptist Temple with Bob Gray Sr.'s pastor, that there was zero accountability financially for things. There was a treasurer there long term. And her name was Diana Ayers. And the people feared her. The people who worked on staff I know would try to get money for this or that. And it all had to go through her. I could take you to people who would tell you that allegedly there were two sets of books and other things like that. And there's no way I could confirm that. I just know that the books at the Longview Baptist Temple were shady. And so, it would not surprise me that, you know, this is, this, where, what else would Scott learn but how to do ministry in that way? Yeah. That's the bubble he's in. Yeah. I guess I have one more follow-up question about that. Have you heard from anyone at Longview or still in connection there? It's not Longview more, right? It's Emanuel Baptist Church? Emanuel Baptist Church. Yeah. Okay. Has Bob Gray Jr., is Bob Gray Sr. still alive? I think he's still alive, correct? He is. He is. Have either one of those made a statement about Scott Gray and Tim Fogge and Liberty and what's going on? I understand it's been shared that Scott Gray is now attending C.T. Townsend's church down in Augusta, Georgia. Right. And there's been pictures shared on their Facebook page that he was there with some small groups and things. And I actually talked to a guy just this past week that knows a guy that goes to C.T.'s church that says the day that C.T. allows Scott Gray to step up in the pulpit and preach will be the last day he attends that church. So we know that he's attending there. We know that he's going there. We know that he's doing some things, but has anyone made any type of public statement like, we condone this behavior, we don't agree with what he's done, like distance themselves from him or made statements like that? Or are they just turning a blind eye? So you talk about a family dynamic here, okay? I can tell you that none of them get along. So Bob Jr. does not get along with Scott Gray. They don't have anything to do with each other or very little to do with each other. And neither one of them, as far as I know, has very much to do with their dad. Their dad's in Florida. He's at Greg Neal's church, and he still preaches around some places. He's got a little YouTube page where he gets like about 30 views for little videos that he does. Bob Jr. does not. They don't trust each other. None of the family trusts each other. So when Mrs. Gray passed away here a couple of years ago, just maybe two years ago, three, I'm not sure. She was buried. They had a gravesite for her in Florida that the kids didn't attend. And then the kids all had a memorial for her in Longview that their dad did not attend. And that kind of tells you the dynamic. It's really sad. But if they don't trust each other, you've got to ask yourself why. Like, I know I don't trust them, and I can tell you why I don't trust them. But they don't trust each other. Why? So, yeah. So I'm sure there's always. And I've had people tell me this, that when they were growing up, their dad kind of pitted them against each other as rivals. And I have told you before, I was friends with Bob Jr. too. I worked with him at UPS. I went fishing with him. You know, I had somewhat of a relationship with him as a peer and not as, you know, I'm subordinate to him. And, you know, they're two different animals. I always liked Scott better. Scott's not mean. Her dad's just mean. And Bob Jr. has a mean streak in him too. I didn't see it, but then I wasn't under him in the youth department. If you listen to some of the testimonies, some of the people telling their stories on my podcast, it's unreal how mean he was. And someone asked me, like, have you heard things about Bob Jr. to make you change your opinion of him? Because it seems like you have a good opinion of him. And I said, well, I wouldn't say that I have a good opinion of him. It's just that I don't have personally anything against him. And for the things that I've heard have just honestly made me disappointed to learn those things. Yeah. You know, you would hope for something better. I always hope for. I just wish these people would do better. And then when you hear that, like these horrible things, you just facepalm and you're like, you're kidding me. Well, I tell you what, we're going to get into the future of the podcast in just a minute, but I'm going to take an opportunity to go off on a rabbit trail. Okay. Because I had a couple of things I wanted to hit you with and go over with you. One thing is in my personal life, I've had a great opportunity to go back to New Orleans and get my master divinity. And I'm right in the middle of the process of that. I'm part of scholarship. I'm getting it free of charge. I wasn't able to get it any other way. And death is a blessing from the Lord that he opened this door for me. I made a decision a couple of weeks ago, prayed about it, thought about it. And I switched my MDiv from pastoral ministry to chaplaincy and pastoral care. Because, you know, I think that that's a good, you know, it's a good feather to have in my cap. It's good to have something to fall back on. Who knows I might end up doing that one day. And the difference between the two master's degrees are three classes. It's not a very big difference. But you've got some experience with chaplaincy. And so I would like for you to share your heart a little bit about the ministry of chaplaincy, about what it takes to be an effective chaplain. And just where you're at with that. So I became a hospice chaplain 11 and a half years ago. It's honestly the best. It's a ministry. It's not a job. But I tell people it's the best job I've ever had. I absolutely love it. What helped me to do this very well, one of the things was that I have an innate curiosity about why people believe what they believe. And so I've always been curious. What does how would a Lutheran describe their faith and how they got there and why they believe the way they do? How would a Methodist? How would anybody? And so just delving in because it was my interest when I when I interviewed to become the hospice chaplain, I said, I can tell you, you tell me your faith tradition and I can tell you as much more about it as you can. And that helps me to relate to people as as Christians. Yeah, we have things that we disagree about, obviously. And those things tend to be heightened within the Christian world. But to be honest with you, a lot when it comes to lay people in the church, you know. It's faith that unites us to Christ, not a doctrinal statement. And you run into believers in all these churches. When I was growing up, IFB, you know, it's like these people aren't even saved. You know, they but you find out, you know, people believe in and love Christ. Whatever their tradition is. And so I'm able if you were to draw the Venn diagram of what I believe and where all these other traditions are. There is so much that we have in common. And sometimes it's just a matter of me using different vocabulary. That means basically the same thing. But I get to minister to people at the end of their lives. And part of what I do is it was it kind of blew me away when I first became chaplain. They said, we want you to do minister to patients and their families, which is a joy. Do bereavement work and also marketing. And I said, well, what do you mean by marketing? What am I supposed to do? We want you in the nursing homes and the assisted living facilities. We want you seen all the time. We want you to get to know everybody in those facilities. And so I do Bible studies. I hold church almost every day of the week in one of these places. Grab the Heavenly Highway hymnal and sing songs from the Heavenly Highway hymnal. I take the sermons I preach at church. I scale them down and edit them for a general audience in the nursing home. And I have church and I re-preach my sermons all week long. And I love all those people. I have people that you could look at it this way. It's technically I haven't been their pastor. But I mean, more or less, I've been pastoring them for 10 years because they're residents at a nursing home. And I'm the only one that comes and preaches to them. And I absolutely love what I do as a hospice chaplain. Has being a chaplain affected your church? Have you gotten any, I guess what I could say, people come to your church because of you being a chaplain? Have you had influence in that way? Yes, yes. In fact, you can, if you were to be a hospice chaplain in the area, you meet all sorts of people. And sometimes you run into people who will say, I'd like to visit your church. We've had people visit. We haven't had anybody join, but we've had people, you know, as regular visitors for a while. And so, yeah, it definitely goes right along with it. And at the church, they're just glad that, because I'm, the church is not able to pay me. I'm bivocational. And so, the hospice allows me to do church work while I'm at hospice. And the church allows me to do hospice work. And they blend so well. It's almost like, well, obviously, God was in it. James, did you have any questions about this? God intended it. I love it. No, that's great. I think that's a great ministry. When I was in Hidden Night as a youth pastor, I had the opportunity. They had interviewed me. The hospice chaplain had retired or had passed away. And so, I put my name in the hat. And I was young, and they didn't want someone young in that position. So, they went with the older guy, and he only lasted like a year. And then I already left. And I said, hey, you could have had me, guys. But I've had some good relationships with some chaplains in the area. And I think it's great work. And I appreciate what you're doing with that. So, yeah. All right, James. I've got one more thing. Actually, two more, if you don't mind me taking some time. James, let me ask you, in the 11 years that you've been in a hospice chaplain, are there any testimonies or stories that stick out in your mind right now that have really affected people that you'd like to share? There was a man who was a resident of a nursing home when I first started. And he was just such a precious man. And I would go in there and do Bible studies. He was in there because he had cancer. He fought it. And it was declared cancer free. But as often happens, his cancer came back. He struggled so much with the chemo and radiation and everything. The first time, he did not want to do it again. And so he chose to just go in the nursing home. And when time came, he went on hospice. And I walked with him spiritually for several years because it took that long for the cancer to eventually take him. And I loved that guy. His family wasn't around. He had sons that, you know, worked in Washington, D.C., things like that. And that story could be repeated over and over and over where precious people that I am able to be their friend. I mean, I've met so many people that I'm going to have a reunion with in heaven that it's just I can't wait to get there and see all these people again. I can't wait for the resurrection when they're no longer in wheelchairs, when we're all like healthy and happy. And honestly, it helps me be focused like that all the time. I love those people so much. I would rather preach to eight people in a nursing home than to a thousand in some church. I really would. Amen. Amen. Okay. I got one more thing before we get back on track. You have a famous uncle. Uncle Charles Spurgeon. We're going to do a little game show. In post, we're going to cue the game show music right now. And so we're going to play a little game called Is It Uncle Chuck or Not? Okay? Okay. And we're going to put the two Jameses against each other. So I'm going to read a quote and you're going to say, is it Uncle Chuck or is it not Uncle Chuck? Okay? Okay. All right. Here's the first one. And just so you know, I haven't been given these ahead of time either. This is all new for me. I'm laying this on him too. Okay. Here's the first quote. I have learned to kiss the wave that throws me against the rock of ages. That is Uncle Chuck. Uncle Chuck, baby. That's him. That is correct. That is correct. Okay. Next one. It's not how much we have, but how much we enjoy that makes happiness. I don't think that's Chuck. I don't know. I've never heard that one. Okay. So yes or no? No. I'm a no. No is correct. That is not Uncle Chuck. Let's go. Okay. We're tied, baby. Face off. James versus James. We're tied. Here's the next one. If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap over, let them leap to hell over our bodies. Yes. That's Uncle Chuck. Yes. Yes. I'm going to say that's him. That is correct. You're both right, man. Y'all are tied up. Three to three, baby. Three to three. All right. Here we go. Defend the Bible. I would as soon defend the lion. Let it loose. It will defend itself. That's him. Yes. Yeah. That is not Charles Burton. What? What? You're both still tied up. You're both still tied up. Okay. I got... We'll do two more. I don't know if that was because it sounds like Chuck. It's just a common saying. Oh, okay. All right. We got two more. You are what you are in secret. I'm going to say no. I'm going to say no. That is not Uncle Chuck. Let's go. All right. Last one. Four to four. All right. Here we go. Last one. See if we can tie it up or win. I have a great need for Christ. I have a great Christ for my need. I'm going to say no. I'm going to say yes. All right. That was Uncle Chuck. Let's go. I have the lead. Burge took it. The Persian family wins it. Five to four. Yes. All right. So you've lived up to your name, sir. Absolutely. Okay. Virgin also said that God gave him two hands to fill with cigars, one in each hand. Both of them to the glory of God. Amen. All right. So at this point, we're going to get back on track. And I'm going to ask you about the future of the crucible. Where do you see your podcast going? Well, you know, I hope to get more people listening because it, even though it's, it's centered on the Longview Baptist Temple. It has so much to say that people in, I've got a guy who messages me almost after every episode who was in the Bob Jones world. And he says the, basically the only difference is that it was, it was kinder and gentler in the Bob Jones world, but the same controlling aspects. He identifies with so much of what they say there. So I'd kind of like to get a broader audience, but as far as, as I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing, because like the number of people who were damaged by that place. When I say damage, I mean, real damage is in the thousands and they continually reach out to me. I'm surprised every week by hearing from new people. Like I'm reminded, Oh yeah, I forgot about them. I've had a lot of people talk to me off the record and there's so much more. I feel like that I can say to help people who were damaged by that. My goal for them is to find the real Christ, to find genuine Christianity, to find. And just like with my hospice work, I'm not sectarian, you know, on the podcast. I don't care, you know, if they go to a Methodist church, I'd say that because I'm always joking about Methodists. I love Methodists, but whatever church, I want them in church. I want them serving Christ and they're not ready for it. Most of the people I talk to, they run a spectrum of I'm an atheist, to I'm agnostic, to, well, me and Jesus, we have our own thing going, to I go to church. But it's hard for me to go in because there are triggers. I've had people talk about like a certain song is sung and their husband just has to reach down, pat them on the knee and say it's going to be okay because they're getting, they're having reactions. They're being taken back to that horrific place. And that place was spiritually horrific, the damage that it did to people. And so we're just going to continue talking about that because people, when they come on and tell their story, they talk about how cathartic it is, how healing it is. Listening to other people tell their stories for them is healing and cathartic. And just going to continue doing that, continue trying to point out what's wrong, point people in the right direction, give them the gospel. Some of them may realize it, some of them may not. What they think of as preaching is not what I do. And what I think of as preaching, I do it all the time in the podcast and they don't even know it. Does that make sense? I hope I didn't let the cathartic bag. I might have preached to them quite a bit, but they weren't aware it was preaching, so they just listened to it because that's not the preaching they grew up with. Yeah. Yeah. Settle. Well, we just finished up our series on Jim Jones and looking at spiritual manipulation. Sounds like you've listened to a couple of those episodes. We ended it last week with looking at when you are in that spiritually abusive manipulation relationship style church. And we even talked about how some of these people were born and raised in this environment. And they didn't realize it until the juice came and they had drunk the Kool-Aid and they were they had committed suicide. This mass genocide that happened. And so the question we want to pose and sort of in the talk today is if you find yourself, you wake up one day and you realize, wow, I've been in this environment. I've been in a TBC. I've been in a LBT. I've been in this environment and didn't even realize it. But now the red flags are starting to come out. Now I'm starting to see some of these things. What do you do? How do you help someone to come out of that environment that's been trapped or stuck or realizes they're in that environment? It's difficult because if you're a member of that church, you're told that all the other churches are apostate. You're told it's scary to go to another church. It's like it's like there's this giant liberal monster out there that's going to suck you in and take away your faith. And I try my best to convey the truth that there's genuine Christianity out there and people who leave like grow in their faith because they left that you're being stunted in your growth. And you would be better off spiritually by leaving that place and finding a better church and that there are lots of churches out there that you could go to. And it's just a matter of finding the right place. And, you know, I listen to Eric Skorzynski on Preacher Boys podcast, and I enjoy what he does. He does something different than I do. He is investigative and exposing. You know, it's like 20-20, right? That's kind of what his vision is. That's what he does. And whereas I approach it differently, I want to steer people back to good Christianity because there is a good Christianity out there, and it wasn't what they were exposed to. And so it's tough. You have to be gentle, and you just have to, you know, persuade people, hey, there's a better world out there. There's a whole new world out there. I'm curious, before we go on to the next thing, I'm curious. You've been in that environment. You wrote the book on that environment. But have you heard things on your podcast that even shocked you? Yes. Absolutely. I hear things all the time that make my jaw drop. Sometimes on the podcast, sometimes off-the-record things that people tell me. I've got a lot of people who are scared to come on. I have people who can't come on because they have family who's still there, and they have to navigate that relationship that they have with them. They don't want to hurt them. Even though a lot of people have been shunned for leaving, I guess that you fear when you leave that place. You fear what they're going to do to you, what they're going to say about you. And they actively threaten, you know. And they control by manipulation. And that manipulation lasts a long time after you're gone. And so, yeah, I hear things that make my jaw drop. It's incredible the amount of control they had over the kids there, the way the kids were treated there, the things that were swept under the rug there, the stupid evangelistic things that were done as far as baptizing over and over and over and over again, the same person, the way the numbers were counted, just make you. It's amazing how they could do that and still justify that in their minds and have any integrity when they announced the numbers. It's the whole thing is a carnival, only a really dark carnival, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's tough to hear that. And we've talked through multiple times of how to find a healthy church. We've had Jim Neuheiser come on as far as boundaries and some things to look at and different great conversations. And I'm glad you gave those things to look at because those are valuable for us as we begin, even if we're in a healthy church, right, to be able to see those red flags, to be able to call those things out when we see them because accountability matters and be able to be faithful in those things are good for us to hold each other accountable. And we appreciate you so much coming on. I appreciate your work with the Texas Baptist Crucible. I'm glad to have a little bit of peace of starting that by us and birthing that into existence. We should start our own network now that the RFP network is down. We can start our own network of a fun podcast full time. I'd love it. But yeah, if you're ever in the area, come by and see us. And we'd love to have a cigar with you again, James. But thank you for coming on today. And until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning. Has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast.

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