108. RFP Meetup 2022 - Breakout Session

Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. We wanted to bring you a special episode this week. This is an episode from one year ago. We had a RFP meetup in Danville, Virginia, and me and John and Kristen were able to do a breakout on what is biblical counseling and how to be effective in that area. And so audio, just to let you know, is not the best. We did record this on our phone, and so there are some Q&A time, so it may be difficult to hear. Just want to give you a heads up, but man, it's a great hour and 15, 20 minute conversation. Some great questions that were asked from the audience, and I've had taken out some of the questions that were asked to be taken out. So we hope this will be a blessing to you, and we hope to see you this week coming up at the RFP meetup in Asheville, as well as Israel's coming up if you're interested in that. It's going to be a blast. Me and Brett are both going to be at the meetup, and if you're there, come by, talk to us, and hopefully you'll be able to, maybe if you want to tell us your story or be on the episode, let us know. It'd be a blessing. So hopefully enjoy this episode of the For Freedom Podcast. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel, for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Saferick and Brett Martin. Father God, I love you, Lord, and I thank you so much for each and every one of these people that have made the time out of their week to come and listen to some great preaching and also to be able to discuss biblical counseling and how that impacts not only our lives, but the lives of others that we interact with. I pray that you would guide our words today and that everything we say and do will honor and glorify you. You know, I pray. Amen. Amen. So welcome today. And we're excited about being able to talk about this thought of gospel-centered counseling. And don't know why you're here. Maybe you're just interested in wanting to be a counselor. Maybe you've just got issues that you're wanting to deal with or you have questions for us. And so we're going to sort of talk through what is biblical counseling, what that role is and what that looks like in our lives. And then at the end, we're going to open up for some question and answer time. If maybe you've got a situation that you'd want us to try to tackle and assist. And we don't want this to ever be just a shotgun. Here's a verse figured out. In biblical counseling, it is a process of figuring out where that person's at spiritually before we ever get to the nuts and bolts. Typically, it's a couple of sessions. Raise your hand if you actually are in ministry. Okay. So about half and half. All right. And that's good. I like that because you don't have to. This is not just a full-time ministry thing. This is, as Kristen's about to explain, this is everybody should be doing this. And we're going to preface all that by saying there is this book that we picked up. I picked it. It just came out. We'll be recommending a lot of books probably in this session. This book is called The Gospel for Disordered Lives. It's an expensive book. I got it at a convention, like half off or 60% off. That's the only reason why I bought it. But as we got to looking through it, there's 40 chapters. And I'm just going to read a couple of the chapter titles to you just so you can see what's going on here. The first couple chapters is what is biblical counseling? Why should we do biblical counseling? It goes through how do we disorder someone's problems? How do we figure out those problems? The overview of a change process, the role of the church, giving hope when we counsel, ethics and legal issues, anger, resentment, fear, sadness, infertility, suicide, eating disorders, addictions, grief, trauma, abuse, pornography, same-sex attraction, sexual abuse, guidance and decision-making, physical diseases, injuries, disabilities, medical care. And then the last four chapters, I think it's probably the most important here, counseling children, counseling teenagers, counseling middle-aged adults and counseling older adults. So how to do those in a great way. So I'm in the process of beginning to read this book at some point. It's on my list to read. But just the titles and the guys who recommend it are great guys. So great resource here that's going to help you if you're in this area of trying to figure out how to help people. So we'll start. I'm going to sort of moderate. I'm going to sort of ask these guys some questions. So the first one is this. What is gospel-centered biblical counseling? What is gospel-centered biblical counseling? Kristen, you're going to answer that for us. Oh. And jump on away. So I'm much, so just to give a little bit of background about me and with counseling, while I believe they are certified or on their way to being certified, I am in the process of being a certified biblical counselor. But one of the things that always resonated with me when I first kind of was exposed to biblical counseling and the idea of biblical counseling is that we're all counselors ultimately. Like, in my mind, I had, like, oh, the pastor is the one who counsels people, and that's solely just to them. And then I was involved in a couple different churches that exposed me to what biblical counseling really looked like and what it looked like between one another, between believer and believer, not just a pastor and their church member. And so one of the biggest things that I took away from being introduced to a lot of that is that we are all counselors. At some point, there's going to be someone that you interact with that is going to need counsel, and where am I going to pull that counsel from? And so that's why I know a lot of times people have some different thoughts and feelings about biblical counseling. Unfortunately, we can all attest to it's been misused, as pretty much anything has been able to be misused. Yes. Right? It's not just biblical counseling. We've all come out of, most of us at least, have come out of an area where Scripture itself was misused, right? It was used to manipulate, to control, to do all of these things. We're not going to take it and say, okay, well, Scripture is, we're going to toss it out because it's not sufficient or it's not, it was used in a wrong way. It's kind of the same thing with biblical counseling. It can be used in an incorrect way, unfortunately, and we've all seen that and felt the effects of that. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong or it's bad or we need to not use it. Because ultimately, we would all say that Scripture is sufficient, right? All Scripture is sufficient. And that is what we use as our guide through this life. And that is what we would pull from when we are giving counsel. So in a nutshell, biblical counseling is soul care. And it's just caring for the souls of the people that you're interacting with, whether it be your mom, your best friend, someone that you don't know that's in your church. Or if you're in a more, I'm going to say professional or structured setup of being, going to a, being in active counseling of like every week or every other week or something like that. But it's just caring for the souls of people. Yeah. John, what do you think about that? And what are your thoughts on gospel-centered biblical counseling? No, yeah. I echo everything Kristen says. We were talking at lunch and I said, R.C. Sproul, whatever you think of him. He wrote a book years ago called Everyone's a Theologian. And the premise of the book was basically this. Everybody believes something and everybody expresses those beliefs some way. So therefore, you are practicing some type of theology. So therefore, you are a theologian. The question is, what is your theology and is it good theology? And so I would piggyback off of his concept and say, everyone's a counselor. The question is, what kind of counselor are you giving? And when we think about this, you know, we can go back to really think about what we heard in the last session by Mark. I mean, if we are amening that kind of preaching, how are we walking that out in everyday life and practicing? Is the Bible sufficient? Now, before we go on, I want to introduce everybody. This is Jonathan Beasley of Explore Christianity. And he has joined us with this. And he's got a lot of ministry experience and also experience with working with apologetics and stuff. And I think also apologetics is great in helping cows. Think about even how much that can help somebody who has been hurt in church with spiritual abuse. Apologetics is an avenue or an aspect that can actually help them heal. Right, right. Totally. And one thing I think is an interesting point of study is actually studying the correlation between philosophy and psychology and how they often they'll intersect. And if you even broaden that from a Christian perspective, how actually theology does bring together, obviously from God's perspective, these two things, a clear philosophy. So like how to think. But also, you think about psychology, we're getting into like how our mind works, how habits are formed, so on and so forth. And so we're able to look at some of these great things in philosophy and psychology. They're good. But I think even says here on the sheet here that secular psychology tends to have good points, but it's through a worldview that's leading counter to the gospel of Jesus. So good ways of helping us think like, hey, let's think through this. Let's set up accountability. Let's create a clear path for victory and overcoming a particular addiction or whatever it may be. But it lacks the true power, as we know as believers, the true power of the gospel. So I think the goal of a Christian counselor would be like, yes, you want to be qualified to be able to teach the right thing. So articulating what is right. But also you want to learn how to guide people because counseling is not just teaching. It involves teaching. But it's not just coaching because you also need to be able to to give people right instruction, but to guide them at the right place at the right time where they're at to the next step. So you want to try to integrate all of these things together. Yeah. And I'll piggyback one thing on that. As I've been doing my training and studying with Jim Neuhauser and ABC, ACBC and their training stuff, he makes this great statement. And I've used it before that the DSM gives great definitions for problems in life. They just give hardly, if any, solutions whatsoever to where we can use those definitions to define something that someone's dealing with. But then we have the solution. We have God's word that can help us in those situations when that person is struggling with something. And so that's that's some great things there. So, John, we'll start with you on this one. How can the gospel help those facing the 21st century mental problems? How can the gospel help someone that's saying I'm I'm struggling with something that this is new. The world's telling me this is all brand new. No one's ever experienced this type of problem in my life. How can the gospel help someone like that? OK, so the idea is gospel centered counseling, gospel centered help. I think Kristen said soul care. If we want to get like real biblical language, we're talking about discipleship. Right. We're talking about one person walking with another person about a specific issue they're struggling with. And scripture, you know, can say that that's discipleship. But track backtrack it a little bit to the question. How could the gospel help those facing 21st century mental problems? And I think that we're Jonathan and I were talking about this just a little bit ago about defining terms. You know, define your terms. What are we talking about when we talk about mental problems? Are we talking about this from the aspect of what the secular world is defining mental problems? Are we starting with a biblical basis? The Bible sort of identifies what's going on within the soul with the word the heart. Now, we've allowed, again, allowed culture to hijack and redefine terms. When we think heart, we think, you know, the love center of where your emotions are coming from. All right. That's only one small aspect. I don't know if that's a Disney type of culture that's affected our psyche and the way that we interpret things. But when you go to the Bible, when the Bible speaks of the heart, it's actually almost a threefold definition throughout scripture. It's talking about the mind center, what you're thinking, how you think. It's talking about, yes, your emotions and your will. It's speaking of all of those in one aspect. And so when it speaks of the heart, it's talking about all of that. So are we talking about mental problems? We're talking about soul problems, the whole person, a makeup? Are we talking about have we divorced that from your soul and just talking about mental issues? And I think that if we approach this from a biblical perspective, then we're thinking of it all completely. And from that point, if we're taking that approach to it, then we see that the Bible has a corpus of answers for that. So then track that to the beginning of the question, what does the gospel have for us to help those problems? Well, I ask this question. And honestly, Mark was answering these questions earlier today. But what is man? That's what you these are the questions you really need to ask from a starting point. What is man and what is man's greatest need? See, it's real easy to get focused on the problem that they come in with or they come into you. And by the way, let me go back to an aspect of everyone's a counselor. Research has shown that when anybody's struggling with anything or any problem, they're either going to talk to their friend or a family member before they talk to anybody that's considered a pastor or professional. They will talk to someone they know. So that's why it's important for us to have this understanding and this knowledge to be ready. Right. Jonathan, be ready to give an answer. OK, so. So how does the gospel? What is man and what is man's greatest need? Bring it back. I'm a simple person. I like to simplify things. So simplify it. What is man and what is great? What is man's greatest need? Come back to the heart of the issue and start growing from there. I know I've been sort of talking a little bit before. One more thing before I send it over to to Kristen and Jonathan. But this I always do this illustration. I don't have a board to draw on. But somebody comes in and I listen to them for the first session and they're talking about either they're struggling with pornography or addiction. They're struggling with depression. They're struggling with marriage problems. They're struggling. Whatever it is that they're saying, this is my problem. Most likely is just the symptom. So this is what I do. I take a diagram and I'm a horrible drawer. But I draw a tree. And I'll take a pen and I'll circle like fruit on the tree. And inside the fruit I'll put anxiety. Depression. Whatever it is, addiction. Whatever it is they say they're struggling with. You know, anger. I'm upset. You know, what it is. And I said, this is what you think your problem is. But if we just spend our time attacking this and we are able to have like 20 sessions where we get this and you go home and you do not have that. What's going to happen? Knowing what we know about fruit trees, what's going to happen? It's going to grow back. So what we need to do, that's the fruit. We actually need to find out what the root issue is. And where do we go? How do we do that? All right. Hebrews 4. The word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword and is the discerner of the what? Thoughts and intents of the what? Heart. Heart. Heart. And I'm telling you, when you start digging into like the idols of the heart, I love, I do that with anybody that comes in there. And you start seeing it, you have them do this thing or this thing or look at James 4. And it's like they come in, they're like, this is my issue. I want control. I didn't do that. I didn't tell that to them. Even though I probably already pegged it. I didn't tell them that. But it was the word of God that revealed that to them as they were digging in it. All right. So. Kristen. Yeah. No. I would definitely echo everything that you said there. One of the things that you said that reminded me and that I had in my notes is the idea of taking those problems or, you know, those presenting problems and putting them into biblical language. Because a lot of times if you're counseling or if you're overwhelmed about counseling or not sure about it, you're like, well, the Bible doesn't specifically talk about depression and what to do with depression. It doesn't specifically talk about this. How am I supposed to figure that out? And one of the best in my church, I was talking to our soul care pastor about it. And he said, so the Bible doesn't specifically say, you know, this is what you do about a manipulator or an abuser or a narcissist or all these buzzwords that are out there right now. But it does talk about oppressors and being oppressed. And so taking it and putting that into biblical language and referring to that helps you then be able to say, oh, scripture absolutely does talk about oppressors and what to do and how to handle them and what our response is to that. That opens up now. Okay. So when someone is dealing with that in their life of either they are themselves the oppressor or they have someone that is oppressing them. Now, I put it into biblical language. Scripture talks a lot about that. And that has to be, I think that not, I think it's one of the hardest things is to always coming back to scripture and putting it in what is scripture. And it's not a prescriptive thing where it's like, oh, like you said, a one and done. Someone said, you know, oh, if you read this verse or memorize this verse, here you go, you're done. Like, and a lot of times we'll think of biblical counseling in those terms that it's very like, oh, you deal with anxiety, trust in the Lord with all your heart and lay not on your own understanding. Why are you, why are you concerned? Like you're done. Must not be trusting enough. Right. Exactly. You just got to trust harder. And then we kind of fall into this weird, like legalism, trying to earn our, uphold our salvation. And, you know, it starts spiraling into all these different things. But scripture is important. And like you said, it's, it is what discerns and the thoughts and intents of our heart. So it is very scripture based, but it's not a bullet of a scripture based of like, oh, okay, you're done. It is literally walking alongside with them. And it's not, it's not formulaic. It's, it's not the same thing every time. You might see patterns and be able to be like, oh, okay. So they said this. So maybe we might study this passage. But it's not formulaic. It's not the same every time. And so it is literally getting to know the person, especially if it's someone that you don't have an interaction with or don't have an established relationship with. It takes sometimes three or four sessions. If you're in like a more like a traditional counseling session, sometimes it takes two, three or four sessions before you know that person and kind of are hearing their story and hearing their hurts and crying with them. And hopefully getting some righteous anger if they've been wronged, like in being able to empathize with that. But then always not leaving them there because anyone can do that, right? Anyone can listen and anyone can say that you were wrong. That was awful. But not leaving them there. Yeah, that's good. Because the gospel is what gives us the hope. And scripture and taking them back to scripture and saying, yes, horrible, awful. But you don't have to stay there because they don't want to stay there. That's why they're coming to you to talk about it or coming to someone to talk about it because they don't want to stay there. And we have the answers. God has given us the answers in his word. Jonathan, anything that I'd add? Well, yeah, I'm trying not to rehash what you guys said. That was really good stuff. One way I like to think of it is like we want to give gospel advice to people. But we also want to think about the way that we're structuring things with people by the gospel itself. So like what do I mean by that? Like I could actually – somebody could come and they could be hurting. And I could give them something that would fit under the banner of this is biblical advice. Like you mentioned rejoicing the Lord always. Yeah, so that's biblical, right? I could argue that that's – that would be gospel-centered because the Bible says, Philippians 4, rejoice in the Lord always. But the same Bible that gives us that verse gives us a whole book of lamentations. So you have like just because you used a verse that was biblical doesn't mean necessarily that it was informed fully by the gospel. And so when somebody's come and they're hurt, the gospel doesn't just say, hey, I want you to fake your optimism. Let's just be – let's just throw some joy in that and let's just be happy. No, actually the Lord allows us to come in a state of brokenness. We're actually able to come and pour out our emotions on him. So if I'm a counselor and I want to show them Jesus, I've got to be that type of person that says, hey, I'm going to allow them to actually be able to just pour this out. Actually, what they need right now is someone to sit in love. And that's what God does. And that's what we see manifested to the gospel. You see what I mean by that? So you just want to go through and say, okay, am I showing them the reality of the gospel in the way that I approach my counseling? It doesn't shy away from getting around to what joy looks like in the midst of utter devastation. But you want to lay it out and say, hey, you know, it's okay to grieve. God actually tells us that it's good for us to process these things. Like Hebrews 4, I think one of you mentioned Hebrews, but Hebrews 4, it says in Hebrews 4, 13, we're both open and naked before whom we have to give an account. The chapter ended there. That's not very encouraging. It's just like God knows you very deeply. He knows how deep and dark the path goes. But then the verse is gone and says, we have a sympathetic Savior and who invites us to come and he's sympathetic towards our weaknesses. And then right on that, he says, okay, now come boldly. So if you get the context, on your worst day, God knows it all. He sees it all. And he still invites you to come boldly. So I want to create a context where somebody doesn't come to Christian counseling having it all together and coming with their Christianese or even their gospel speech that makes them sound like they're all put together and good. I want to invite them to come and say, hey, God invited you to come to Christ as you are. Not cleaned up, you know, not with a facade of righteousness. You can come and actually, when somebody can come and be them and really tell you where they're at, it is a part of the healing process. And they're going to get to the place of what does it mean to have joy in Jesus? You know, my spouse just left me. And, you know, in psychology, they'll say something like, well, you can't control what others do, but you can control what you do. That's good advice. But if I take the gospel, I can go further than that. I can say, you know, not only, well, you can only control what you can't control them, but we can go to God who controls all things. We can trust him. That doesn't mean that person is going to come back, right? But it does mean that regardless, I know my God is sovereign and in control. But after they've worked through processing and just pouring out their heart, this gospel information can really revolutionize a person's life. So anyways. That's some fantastic wisdom. That's good. That's very good wisdom. Because what is probably one of the most well-known verses when someone is suffering or struggling? Romans 828. Romans 828, right? All things. Is that true? Yeah. Absolutely. But you've got to be very careful with how you wield that verse. Yeah. You've got, like, I love that answer, John, because you've got to walk with them and love them and then guide them into that truth before you hit them over the head with it. Yeah. And they're probably going to say some very scary things. I know that was when I was first in the counseling room and things that they say, sometimes in how they view God, some of the things that they say and just those feelings and those emotions that are coming out. I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. Like, this is kind of scary. Yeah. But helping them, like, being that listening ear. And for me, it was like schooling my face to not be like, oh, no. You know, that reaction of, like, I don't know what to do with this or anything, you know. But just letting them express those thoughts that are going on. Because if you don't hear it, you don't know what's going on in them, right? Yeah. And going back again to something Jonathan said, if you are, if you got somebody in your sphere that's talking to you or something like that, that's going through some type of intense suffering or dealing with suffering from their past, get to understand lamentation. Psalms of lament will be their greatest friend. So one of my first counselees was someone who had been sexually abused as a child, sexually abused as a teenager, emotionally abused by parents, domestically abused in her marriage, and left God. Said, I don't want anything to do with God. A few years later said, all right, I'm going to give God one more chance. Jesus came to Christ by reading the gospel of John. And this is where they were. I know I need to get back in church, but everything I've seen of church scares me to death. Yeah. I need help. All right. So eventually, this was not first. This is actually more like session six. Eventually, we're going to Psalms of lament. And so we do things like we give what we call homework, whatever you want to call it. But I want them in the word. I want them doing some type of exercise or something to help with throughout the week until we meet again. So one of the things that I heard this from somebody, and I figured I would try it. One of the things I asked them to do was this. I said, I want you to read, I think it was Psalm 32 or 33. It was a Psalm of lament. I said, I want you to read that every day this week. And I want you to sort of get the language that the psalmist is talking to God. Sort of shocking. What, you know, when you read a Psalm of lament, it's like, whoa, this person is talking to God this way? And this is scripture. So get the way that they're talking to God about their struggle. I said, here's what I want you to do. After about day four or day five, I want you to sit down with a pen and a piece of paper. And I want you to write your own lament to God. I said, you don't have to tell me what it says. You don't have to tell anybody what it says, but you and God. And I said, he can handle it. And ever, you know, after about seven weeks later, we were finishing up sort of that sort of counseling, you know, session arrangement. And I asked her, what was the thing that helped the most? And she said it was the Psalms of lament. That's good. A really good resource, again, he said we'll probably recommend books, is Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy. And Mark the book, yeah. It is phenomenal. If you look at Lamentations and you're like, I don't know, or these Psalms of Lament, that is a fantastic book to work through. And just how laments, they have a structure to them a lot of times. And I know he also has a workbook that goes with it where, like, he asks you to do the same thing. Like, write out your own Psalm of Lament and work through it that way. So it's really good if you're looking for resources for that. Again, I'm going to go back to what? Another thing Jonathan said that needs to be emphasized, and I say this because in talking to more experienced counselors that are actually doing training counselors right now, they said this is the number one problem they have with counselors that they're training. And that is the counseling session becomes a teaching lesson. And they said they really have to work with them. And this is something that's going to be, for some of you, it'll be the pit that you fall in the most, where you spend the most of the time just teaching them and speaking at them. Instead of going back and forth, working with them, talking with them. And that is something like, if you're going to be engaging in this, keep that in the back of your mind. Yeah. And I'll add to both of that, because as a youth pastor and a children's pastor, I deal with teenagers and children all the time. And I went to a breakout by Sean Perron. He's Sean Perron. Sean Perron. Sean Perron. Perron. I always say his name wrong. But he's down in Florida. And he does intentional counseling with specifically children. Children that have been hurt, abused, and hurt in a lot of different ways. And he's given me so much advice over the last couple of years just dealing with situations. But what he's always said, and I wrote it down, is being gentle and compassionate with no matter who you're with. Trying to figure out where they're at and work them along. And he gave a great case study that he was working through. And the actual talk was how to counsel hurting children. Children that have been hurt, but also kids that are hurting. And he gave this amazing story of how he began to just talk through with her what the gospel meant. How her mom and dad were killed in a car accident. How everyone that was around her who supposedly loved her abandoned her. How she was being abused. And what he said was, he said, I was able to bring her to a place of understanding of knowing who God was and how God is unchanging. And how God was going to be there no matter what. And he said, with the children, it's a whole lot longer process. And so understanding that and being gentle and compassionate with those things are very, very important. So for sake of time, our third question was, what are some examples? How can the gospel help us with marriage troubles, anxiety, depression? We just listed a couple. But for sake of time, because we want to get to your questions, we're going to open up for the next 20, 30 minutes for any questions you may have for us. It could be a situation. And remember, we don't have a lot of the back story. So you may say, hey, I've got some of us dealing with it. That's a good point. That's a good point. I think it's worth making it. You want to finish the point? No, I think it's worth making it this time. I mean, we're talking about things to help people. But one of the things that is huge, and this is a scriptural principle from the book of Proverbs, Proverbs 18, 13. He that answers a matter before he hears it does a foolish and stupid thing. That's John Holyfield's translation. Okay? But you need to gather as much information about the subject before you start talking. Also, as a reminder, we are recording it, and it could be played. So make sure you're not giving any details. Like if you do ask a question about a situation, not any identifying details or anything like that, just for the confidentiality of the person that you're working with. I'm not talking about like talking today. But I'm talking about when you're with someone and they're asking you, you know, I spend first session with somebody, I have them fill out a five-page information form. And then I spend 45 minutes of the hour session asking them questions. And then, you know, it's the first – our goal of session one is to give hope. Gather information and give hope. I don't start working with like, you know, you've got to build a relationship, but you also have to gather information. Because there's things – this thing, people never tell you the whole story right at the beginning. And I'll give one practical illustration there. Two weeks ago, we fed our local football team at our church. It was a seventh-eighth grade football team at the middle school. The cheerleaders were there. I gave the devotion on the armor of God and how we can fight the devil with the armor of God. And I had a young girl come up to me. She was one of the coaches. She was in high school. And she said, hey, can I talk to you after I get done eating? I said, sure. Didn't know if it was, you know, gospel, whatever it was. She came to me. She said, I believe Jesus. Everything you said, I believe. I believe that he came, died on the cross. She affirmed the gospel. She said, but I just need to be back in church. I'm not in church. Can you help me with that? The easy response would have been, you know, Hebrew says we should be together. Get back in church. That would have been my easy response, right? So what I did was I said, you know what? I've got five minutes. This is going to be a whole lot longer process. Can I ask you a couple questions just to see where you're at? What's so hard for you about going to church? She was like, well, you know, my family, we grew up in church. My dad died, committed suicide six years ago. She said, since my dad died, my mom's been out of church. I've been out of church. All of a sudden, I began to see a little bit more of the picture. And I just gave her one, because I had five minutes. They were literally loading the bus. I had five minutes. I said, can I ask you one question? I said, where was your dad's service at? And she said, it was in a church. I said, do you think that may be a problem of why you have this resentment or fear of going into a church? And I gave her a little bit of hope and encouragement. But again, I only have five minutes. But it's just simply trying to get as much information as you can before you try to give any type of help. Because if we don't know the whole story, how can we truly help? So that's sort of our thoughts. These guys are a whole lot more qualified than I am. So what's your thoughts, concerns, questions? Is there a situation that you're dealing with or something that you may have for us that we can try to help you out with? And if we're done, I mean, hey, we get water and go downstairs and we're good. Yeah. Ben. Ben. Yeah, I know. Well, a couple of thoughts before. I have a specific thing to ask. We're talking about that method of basically offering a prescription to bring a prescription-based counseling. When I was in Bible college, I was taught that essentially, you're a doctor, give them a prescription. And I saw it play out in real life with someone in my church where it's like they're dealing with depression. And the clinical answer is just, well, just trust the Lord, yada, yada. And she literally got to the point of just like if somebody else says that to me, again, I'm just going to throw up. Nobody actually did. What are you guys describing? I don't know if I'm counseling, but the question, the situation that I have in mind is what we talked about and what I think a lot of people think of counseling. You're typically aiming at a specific person, specific need, depression, marital problems, yada, yada. But what about you dealing with a parent or parents that are trying to counsel them with how to get their kids in their household under control? So I'm thinking of a real-world example in my church right now. I'm trying to help my dad work through. My dad's a pastor in the program for a semester. Right. Mom saved a couple years ago a couple older kids that are pretty much out of house, two younger kids. They're all good fathers. That type of scenario. They're worried about the child, the department of whatever the department is that comes in like DHS. DCS. DHS. DHS. We got DCS. DHS. So if that's in their minds, discipline is really getting them to discipline the kids is really tough. In this context, how would you approach helping a single mother try to backtrack and get younger kids in the vicinity of like three to eight years old and counsel them through how to be good parents, Christian parents, gospel-centered parents and get the kids in the vicinity of the school? Is this a single mom? Single mom, yeah. Single mom, kids not really done much discipline in the past, broken home, and having parenting issues now. What do you do? Johnson, take it away. I'll put you on the spot. I'm the moderator, sorry. You got that right. That's right. Wait a minute ago, you wanted to talk. The moderator can't give some input. That's right. I made that rule up too. So first, I would want to kind of go back to what you were talking about earlier. I would want to make sure that I understood her and really listened to her. A lot of times, like you're talking about prescription. It can be easy just to say, do this, this, and this. Get back to me in a week. But no doubt that she probably is facing just some mental struggle herself. And I know that if she tries to instill like a rhythm of discipleship, her own heart and sense of personhood is not as out of whack. I know that it's probably going to shortcut the, or I should say cut short the type of fruit that she wants to see. Because she's probably like, probably a bit anxious. Like, man, I need to get these kids moving in the right direction. But an anxious presence doesn't really create a good discipleship context. So I would really want to help her become and adopt this non-anxious presence. Like, your kids are not going to go from where they are now. And even, I think, us who have kids, and we've been trying to do it right from the very beginning. We're still like, I'm confused. How do I do this? What's happening? You know, at different life stages. So I just think really trying to help her adopt this non-anxious, just gentle, gracious parenting that's just saying, hey, I want them to see Jesus. Now, when I say gentle, gracious, I don't mean that you never enforce things. And discipline and so forth. But I do think the gentleness of Christ in the gospel should impact in the way that we parent. So I would want to make sure that she understands that. And if she's going to parent that way, she's got to understand her relationship to God is actually that way. So I would want to do that. Then, on a very practical level, I would try to set up a rhythm for her. So this is after we've already done these other things. I would try to set up a rhythm for her in helping to start to create a new culture in the home. And that rhythm would consist of not just like you pray with your kids, do you read your Bible to your kids. But it would be more than just like disciplines like that. But I'm actually saying, hey, how can we help shape a worldview for your kids as well? Like one thing that I do with my kids. So anytime I play with my kids, not every single time. But when I play with my kids, I try to think of a way that I could not in a weird way. Like, hey, let's stop and have a Bible lesson. But more of like, isn't it so cool that God allows us to play? Yeah. Now, what I'm doing there is I'm trying to actually shape the way my kids view fun. You know, like God is not just about you sitting in church on Sundays still. God is actually very interested in you having fun. And so if you can take the daily habits, because this is like Deuteronomy 6 stuff. As you go about your day, lay them down. As you walk about the way, I'm trying to show them the glory and beauty of Jesus. If they only see that like, okay, now we're going to have our formal reading of the Bible. Now we're going to do our Jesus stuff. And it's always kind of in their mind, a little bit more boring. It's not something that they want to run to. But if you're just like, man, this is how awesome our God is. We just got to play for a whole hour. Or we got to whatever, whatever it may be. It might be being out in creation and saying, hey, what's your favorite leaf that God created? So you're not just saying, hey, look at these leaves. What's your favorite leaf? You know, take the opportunities to shape the worldview. So I think if that's done in a rhythm style, you'll begin to see a change. And, of course, that also comes with particular disciplines of a rhythm well. Obviously, any counseling and parenting, consistency is the game. You've got to be really, really consistent. Can I give two practical illustrations there? One. One? I'll give two. If it's a point, it's an illustration. Do you have a question? Do you have a question? Well, I'll throw it in there, I guess. Okay. I don't want to interrupt. Okay, yeah. So practically for me, in that situation, we just had our trunk or treat. Yep. Had a thousand kids come through the church. My kids were out there. We're interacting. And all of a sudden, an autistic kid came through. And was trying to open his bag and he couldn't. Well, his mom went to help him. Well, all of a sudden, he just made just loud outbursts. And so we're all out there. My daughter didn't even realize what it was. And so she just started giggling and laughing. And so we took her aside. And we said, hey, my wife did because she's a lot better at this than I am. And she explained to her why he did that. She said, you didn't even realize that God made him different. He can't function the same way we can. And in that, just that consistency of saying, hey, this is how we treat others. And you don't even realize that your actions that you just did hurt him. Because he didn't even know why you were responding like that. So just practically, and like I said, my wife is a thousand times better at this than I am. Because I'm just like ripping their face off. You're a pastor's kid. What are you doing? And she's like, no, come here. Let me talk through this with you. Help you understand. John tells me all the time how bad I am. And so, you know, we work through that in different ways. Can I just say one more thing about just kind of helping shape our minds with the gospel? Like we can sometimes, like the law of God is good, right? It's a good thing. But being gospel oriented changes the way we operate when we lay down, we put down a law or a rule for our kids. If we operate kind of like almost old covenant, like break the law, here's the consequences. And we almost get this idea of God is not going to respond to me favorably until all of this is resolved. You know, I got to get all of this right. God's not going to respond favorably to me. And so there's almost a distance in that relationship. But actually, when we look at our relationship in the gospel, it's like, hey, even when I'm like really blowing it, I'm not relating well to God at all. God doesn't say, hey, when you get your life, you know, figured out, maybe I'll be favorable to you again. No, the gospel is still that God is very present with us. And so one thing that my, Beth and I try to do with our kids is when I'm finding there's a consistent attitude problem, I could throw law at my kids, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But what I like to do, even if I do lay down some type of law or rule, I try to go over the top in pursuing relationship. So instead of just saying, man, my kid's acting up, I'm going to go tell him, he needs to stop it, I'm going to lay a harder rule, I'm going to take everything away from him, and he's going to be grounded for a month. I'm saying, you know, I actually need to spend more quality, concentrated time with him, exploring who he is, his likes and dislikes. Every time, now, again, every kid's different, right? With my son, Adrian, when he's really not obeying, he's not listening, if I just spend quality time with him, his mood begins to change. If I just throw law at him, I feel like I still kind of stir up that rebel in him, if that makes sense. And if you think about it, I'm not saying don't have law, I'm just saying, hey, let's make sure that we amp up that relationship. So if I was talking to this mom, I would try to get into where the mom is regularly in a rhythm spending quality time with each of her kids because that's going to be the way in. So building off of that, how would you counsel where and how to work in the discipline aspect? Okay, Ben, going back to what you said earlier, does she need convincing that discipline needs to be? I was trying to understand why you were asking it earlier. Does she not think that she should discipline? I think it's the struggle on how and what. How to do it in a way that she doesn't get in trouble, right? Okay. It's the CSS. She knows she should. It's just hard. I believe so. So it's how to do it in a way where we don't get in trouble, but also it's teeth. So essentially the discipline now is there's no teeth to it. Okay, I'm going to give you a resource, and then because time is fleeting, I'm going to give you a resource. Yeah, and if somebody else has a scenario or something like that, it's a resource. It's called – it would be perfect for a situation like that because it's not a big book. It's like a little small – probably could be called a booklet. It's probably about 35, 40 pages. It's about Jim Neuheiser. It's called Parenting is More Than a Formula. Jim and Caroline Neuheiser are – he teaches at a seminary and is the head of the biblical counseling department. He's a pastor for 26 years. They had the quintessential Christian home, have three boys, all adults. None of them are in the faith. And he goes in there and says, we did everything that you sure are supposed to do to put out the product of Christian kids. And what he does in that book is explain that ultimately that kid makes their own choices, and ultimately it is God that works in their heart. You can have all the discipline and all the structure you want. This is really what Jonathan was getting at. This is what Jonathan was trying to explain. It's grace. It is a grace. Should we discipline? Yeah, Hebrews 12. Right? Hebrews 12 is your quintessential proof of discipline is supposed to be there. Right? But at the end of the day, it's grace. And that's the gospel. All right. Can I also throw in real quick for an application aspect? Don't discount other older women in your church. Get her partnered up with someone. Maybe that is older in age, but definitely older in, like, spiritual maturity. Maybe that has been there. Because what also I think what she's probably wanting is support. She's a single mother. She does not have a husband that is helping her with these kids and helping be the disciplinarian or help with that and shoulder that burden. So, for sure, if there is someone within the church that can come alongside her and walk with her through this, we'll help her. And so that when she hits those points of, like, I don't know what to do, she can call up her friend that is discipling her and that is walking through this and being like, I'm at my wit's end. My kid is in the bedroom. And we just had a screaming match. I need help. And they can maybe be able to help guide in that aspect. Yeah. And we emulate who we're around, believe it or not. We begin to talk, use phrases of people that we're around. So if this person is someone who is more spiritually mature than her, it's going to help her spiritual journey, too, in that area. She's going to see, if they go to the park together, how she interacts with her kids. And so it's going to be an example in a whole – I mean, the Christian journey is a lifestyle example. People see how we live. JC gave that illustration this morning in a practical way. So – It's going to be more than just a pastor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Parenting by Paul David Trepp. Yeah. The best. The best out there. His marriage book is also the best. Anything that Paul David Trepp writes by it. Yeah. It's a little bit thicker, you know. But, yeah. It's Parenting by Paul David Trepp. That's for everybody. It's the best book out there, I think. Very helpful. Thank you. Yeah. Anybody have anything else? What's other questions? Concerns? I have a question. April? So I'm currently dealing with – my father just passed away recently, and I'm about to be dealing with his family. And for years they've believed a lot of lies that he's told. He was very abusive to my mother and I. And I'm about to have to deal with telling all of them what actually happened. How do you go about dealing with breaking the news to them like your brother, your relative was actually not who you thought he was? And working through it yourself and then maybe not wanting to work through it and being stuck in that place while you're trying to get through it, while also trying to work through it yourself and get them to see what's true? Yeah. Yeah. We'll go to this question of Kristen here. Oh. Yeah. Or John. Or John. You can throw it to John if you want to. That is tough. And first I want to say I'm sorry for your loss, even if it wasn't – it might maybe not have been an ideal relationship. It's still a loss. But I think one of the things to keep in mind is you can present truth, but you can't force them to accept it. And that's hard. That's really hard, especially when you're dealing with something that is deeply personal and deeply damaging and hurtful. So to have people not or try to dismiss that truth, it's very painful as well to you. But you can present truth and pray beforehand that God gives you the grace in that moment to be able to handle whatever that outcome looks like. One of the best things that I've heard in regards to, especially when you're thinking of future things, things that you're going to be dealing with, is that God gives you the grace to deal with the things today, not the things that you have to deal with tomorrow. Like I think of someone diagnosed with cancer, and I think, I don't know how I could handle that. And I was talking to one of my mentors, and she said, Kristen, praise God. That is not what God has for you right now. But if it is in the future, he will absolutely give you the grace to deal with that and be able to handle that with grace. That his grace is for that day and for the problems of that day. And so trust that he will be faithful in that. Maybe have it, you know, doing a study on – I always go back to the attributes of God, because I think when we know who God is, it helps us to be able to trust. And when we know that he's been faithful here, we know that he will be faithful then, no matter the outcome. Because that's the thing is that you can't control that outcome. You want to be able to. All of us want to be able to control that outcome, but we can't control it. We can pray and rally around with people to pray to that end, that they will, you know, receive it, and then that you might be able to help them process through it because you are already doing some of the work. Be prepared for that, like kind of helping them lead through that. But I think that would be the biggest thing is that you can present truth, but you can't force them to accept it, unfortunately. And the funny thing about family is emotions are always high. Yes. I mean, I can sit here and I listen to as much training as I can, read as much books, but when my dad's in the room, it seems like my mind goes blank, you know, because I just, you know, emotions get there. And quite honestly, if you are hit with resentment, I'm going to give you something for you during that time. And they don't receive that well. Psalm 62 is going to be a good help for you. And that's where, and there's plenty of other psalms like Psalm 62. But Psalm 62, God is our defender. You know, when we're being attacked, you know, go to that refuge. Let him be your refuge. He is your defender when others are attacking you. And it is powerful to know that we can speak the truth and we can do it lovingly. Yeah. And that's what we're commanded to do is speaking the truth in love. It may hurt. It may hurt being brutally honest. My wife has went through some things with her mom recently that I've had to, we've both had to be truthful in and loving there. And it is tough, but we can do it with love, grace, and truth. It goes hand in hand. Law and grace, it goes hand in hand, as Jonathan has said many times. So far, so. I would, beforehand, I would sit down and think, what would worst case scenario look like? Mm-hmm. And say, how should I respond in a way that would be shaped by the gospel? Yeah. And I would really think, I want to plan as if this is going to turn out really bad. And I want to have the right, what's the right response? Because if you go in thinking it's going to turn out really good, and it does turn out really bad, you're like, oh goodness, I was a teacher. Yeah. I don't know how to do this. And you might actually become a very anxious person and say things that were even hurtful back or whatever, and it can be a huge mess. They might say, I don't want to talk about this right now, and I just think that respect is the good move. And wait for that time, but always maintaining this non-anxious presence. And so it's like, tell the truth, be non-anxious, and be willing to be that loving presence, working people through that. And you might have to triage some of the information that you give. Like, I don't know how often you're going to have interaction with them, but it might not be a, here's everything. It might be more of like a, these are probably maybe the bigger ones that they need to know. And then just as you get deeper and interact with them a little bit, because it might be a lot to be able to hear. You've been told all this time lies that they don't know are lies, or maybe they might know or are turning a blind eye to, but it might just have to be more, rather than a fire hose of here's all the things that you were lied to, more of like a garden hose or an eyedropper, depending on who you're talking to, right? Like it might have to be little by little of like, oh, that wasn't the truth. Like this is actually what happened. But fire hoses typically don't have the help, but sometimes you're in a situation where that is how it has to go. Yeah. Yeah. We've got time for maybe one more, four minutes. If anybody has, yeah. We'll get them both. We'll get them both. We'll get them both. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. I am 32 years old, and I am in stage five kidney failure. I was diagnosed with type one diabetes when I was 11, and that's what caused the kidney failure. And I try my hardest not to get into the Joe, why me? I wish I never would have been born kind of thing. But I have so many people at my church telling me what an inspiration I am to them, and I have no idea how I'm that. And it's kind of what advice would you guys give me scripturally that I could study and meditate on? And because I've only been saved for two years, and I don't really know the Bible. That's great. John, we'll take this to you. 2 Corinthians 1. Each person had a question. 2 Corinthians 1. I'm going to turn there and read it. 2 Corinthians 1. All right? And not only is this a passage for like that type of suffering, it's gospel-saturated. All right? First two verses is a greeting to Paul of the church. Verse 3. Verse 3. Blessed be God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforts us and all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those. Why are we comforted by God? To comfort those. In what? Our tribulation. That's a tall order, God. I don't want to comfort other people in my tribulation. I want to be out of my tribulation. But watch this. Watch the progression. All right? As the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ. How can we do this? Because he did it. And he offers that comfort to us. It's like a channel. It's coming from what we see in his sufferings. Comforts us. We can then, in our sufferings, comfort others. He goes on in verse 6. If we are afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effective in enduring the same sufferings which we also suffer. Or if we are comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. Our hope for you is steadfast knowing that as you partake in the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation. For we would not, brothers, have you ignorant of our troubles which came to us in Asia. And he begins to go on and talk about what they went through. I don't know why you're experiencing what you're experiencing. I think I do know. But I know one of the reasons why. Because on one aspect, you identify and understand Christ more than some of us can. Yeah. And on another aspect, you can offer comfort to someone where some of us can't. And according to the gospel, that in itself is also a comfort. Someone else have their hand up? I was just saying. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I don't know. Do you know who Tim Keller is? He wrote a book that's called On Death. He wrote it. He has stage 4 cancer. And he wrote this book because he thought he had gospel resources to face something that was impending. That's basically why I ask this is because I want to be able to reach the people in my dialysis unit. And all the doctors I have to see and all the nurses. And that's kind of what led me to go to seminary was because I have an in with people who, I don't know if they've heard the gospel. Didn't John Piper write a book called Don't Waste Your Cancer? Don't Waste Your Life. I know that's his famous book. It's like a booklet or something like that. This book, though, it's really, really helpful. He's really honest. Yes, he did. But I do think being able to actually, because what can happen when we have death in front of us, we can often look at like, maybe there's a miracle or maybe there's a way out. And we actually could, but maybe there's not a way out. And maybe God actually is bringing you to this point for a purpose. And that's hard to hear. But the living hope of a Christian is that, hey, in Christ, we actually will be resurrected into life. But that didn't stop Jesus when he was in John 11 and Lazarus was dead and everybody was mourning. He actually wept. And it's interesting, the Greek there actually communicates he actually wept in anger. Yep. Because the fact is, is that death is actually an enemy. Yeah. And Christ actually did defeat it. Yeah. And what is in front of you is actually something that we, it is right to be angry about. But at the same time, that is what our living hope is. And I would, I would really try to face death rather than turn away from it. Yeah. And the best thing that you could give someone in that space, in my estimation, is like how in the world can you have confidence? And that's going to come and go, as you've admitted, right? All of us, we're human. It's like some days I'm on top of the world and then, like, I'm 32. And in my dialysis ward, they brought a 19-year-old kid in that can't even go to the bathroom by himself anymore. He has to be catheter every day. Yeah. And I can still go to the bathroom. So I'm like, okay, I'm winning. But still, it's like, it's kind of like how you were saying Jesus went. Like, I look at him and I want to help him. I want to reach him. And that's just, that's why I feel like I got saved literally three months later. I found out I was in kidney failure. Like, you know, when you get saved, oh, I've got life abundant. Top of the world. Yeah. And it's like the floor just fell out. And it was like, did I do it wrong? Did it not stick? Like, what, that kind of thing. Yeah. There's a temporary hope that miracles could bring. Like, we'd say, and it's pretty to heal. But you will still die someday, and I will too. Mm-hmm. Barring Jesus coming back, right? Yeah. And it's kind of like the actual hope of a Christian is not a temporary fix. It's the eternal fix of a new heaven and a new earth. Mm-hmm. And you're going to be there, and I'm going to be there. And the more I can allow my mind to dwell in that reality and face death with the gospel, it'll actually help. And I think that, so what people are looking for in the midst of suffering is the resources to help them get through it. And I think if you are able to embody that, and even actually be honest with you, there's days I actually really do struggle with this. But here's something. This is the resource the gospel has given me to rise above. And Peter, in 1 Peter, he says, in this you greatly rejoice. He's talking about living hope. He says, though you're grieved now with various trials. So what it tells me is that there's grief and joy can coexist. Mm-hmm. It's not like you either have grief or you have joy. You can't have both. Gospel hope actually gives me a joy that coexists with grief, but it actually transcends the grief. Do you know what verse that is? It's 1 Peter 1, 6, and 7. You can actually go from verses 6 down to verse 9. Well, doesn't Hebrews 12 also talk about Jesus saying the joy that was set before him at the cross? Yeah, Hebrews 12, 3. He was 12, 3. I mean, he was facing death. He was facing excruciating pain in the garden. He cried, Lord, take this cup from me. But yet we see also in Hebrews where he says this was a joy for him to be able to experience this. So, all right, we're over time, but we'll hit that last person, whoever it was over here. I didn't see your hand. Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't see your hand. So I left fundamentalism more than 10 years ago. But most of my family left. My dad went back recently and so did one of my brothers about a year ago, which is kind of how I started listening to podcasts and all that. So for years I would go toe-to-toe with my dad, especially when I was younger, about theology, rules, all this kind of stuff. And as I've gotten older, I felt like it's not respectful. I'm not going to change my dad. And, you know, honoring my dad is not something I prioritized when I was younger, but at this point I feel like that's how I can ship honor to him by not doing that anymore. But recently my dad came and visited us and left, like, a sermon series with us and was very insistent that he wanted us to listen to it and just called and asked if I listened to it. And my husband was like, why are you listening to this? I was like, because I just, it means something to him, so I'll listen to it. So I put it on, and it wasn't but a few minutes into it, and I'm sitting in my car and I'm going, I feel panicked. Like, I feel panic in the pit of my stomach. And it takes me back. Like, when I came back a year ago and started looking at all this stuff, I felt for the first time I understood what it meant to be triggered. Like, I was watching stuff on IP Preacher Clips, and I felt small and insignificant. I felt like all these things that I never realized came from this background. So in listening to that sermon series, it's now just made me wonder, like, where is the correct place to fall, right? Because do I just tell my dad, dad, no, I don't want to listen to this, and just shut that down, which will be an argument, because he's that kind of person. Or do I listen to it, and, like, are those things that I should be exploring? Like, why do I feel panicked? Like, for a while I was seeing accounts when we were going through some of that, but I'm not now. So I'm kind of just like, what is the healthy and responsible and respectful thing to do with this? I want to answer the part about working with your dad, and I want to give it to Kristen to talk about the panic. Is that all right? Okay. So first of all, I'd say another resource recommendation. There is a mini book. You'll see down there in the lobby area, Brian has a little stand set up with these little tiny mini books on a rotation. And that series, it's just a year old. There's a mini book called How to Love Difficult Parents. And that's greatly helped me, again, by one of my favorite guys, Jim Neuheiser. It's called How to Love Difficult Parents. And a fantastic resource for sort of understanding that. I'd say Ephesians 6, you know, classic passage on children and parents, right? Children, obey your parents and the Lord. Here's the idea. Should you be obeying your father? No. Exactly. Exactly. All right. What does it commit? But should you honor him? Yes. All right. Now, does honoring him necessarily mean that you need to obey him if it's going to cause this type of emotional harm? I don't think so. I don't think so at all. So discerning a little bit right there. All right. What is being respectful and honoring to my dad where I'm honoring the command in Ephesians? But also understanding I'm not in his home. So the command to obey is not to me anymore. So discerning where that. Now, I'm going to let Kristen sort of address the anxiety. So straight up to answer your question, is that something to deal with? Yes. I think that, I mean, yeah. In that way. Right. In that way. I mean, you know, like it's hard to answer that directly because I don't know the level of panic and anxiety. Like, is it something that is exciting? Is it something that you can handle like maybe a little bit, you know, and being able to interact with it that way? Right. But more of the hard work is getting to the bottom of why it is that that is causing the anxiety. Right. Rather than we can cope with the anxiety. You know, there's. And that's part of what psychology does a lot of times in different things. They give you great coping mechanisms, but they never deal with it. Ultimately, like, they'll give you like, great, I can cope with it. But it's still going to be there. So it's kind of getting to the root of why it is that that is causing anxiety and what. And it's it might be painful. And I know you said it's been many years since you've left. I have been my best friend and I, Shanna, have the Growing Grace podcast. And we talk about all the time about how we are constantly finding things where we're like, oh, that's I was taught incorrectly. And that like I've believed this for 36 years now incorrectly. And so sometimes it's painful to be to have to go through and think through like, why is this causing me anxiety? What am I believing incorrectly about God? What am I believing incorrectly about myself and how God interact? And but whether. I don't know, maybe you guys can help determine of like whether that is a good way of doing it. I don't. It's a it's a tricky. We have to know. Yeah, we'd have to get a lot of information because I'll tell you what. There's some areas where if you're just not ready, you're not ready. But at the same time, is the is the fix for fear and anxiety just avoidance? No, it's not. All right. But we did. We have we have not done an episode on anxiety, but we did one on panic attacks. We interviewed Lucy Ann Moll and she had wrote a book on panic, panic attacks. I don't know if that would be helpful or not. But I've got one on anxiety coming up that we're going to. OK. For sure. Avoidance isn't because you can avoid it for the rest, but it's still there. Like, you know that it's still there. Right. And having to deal with it. So it's going to come out eventually. It's just, you know, where are you in a place to be able to deal with it? Yeah. And in what manner? And the only other question I would ask is when do you have any of these talks with your dad or are you just avoiding them? You know, because sometimes we just avoid it, like she's saying, just because we don't want to deal with it. There is value, and I don't know where I heard this, I heard it recently, in being able to talk and disagree in a Christ-like manner. Which I'm all about, and I'm not great at it, but I'm willing to, like, make that the aim. But, I mean, our house was like a screamer's house. Yeah. Yeah. So, and things will quickly, you know, all you really have to do is express that you don't agree, let alone express that you disagree. And then it goes into defense mode, yeah. And then it's quickly headed, you know. Yeah. This is why I'm right. Yeah. Yeah. So. Jonathan, will you give a closing comment and then close with some prayer? Okay. I've talked a lot. That was just trying to be quite over here. See, you guys laughed. I'm just thinking. I'm being good and you really. Exactly. I'm being good. Um, so, um, I'm kind of in a similar situation, actually, because my parents actually, they kind of came out of some of the IFB and then they went back to a church. It was quite a bit further legalistic than what they were before. And, um, so now every time we go back, it's gotten, um, it's gotten kind of intense. And, um, I don't think for, if you struggle mentally when you listen to that type of stuff, I wouldn't recommend you continue to listen to it, especially if it's not truth. Yeah. Yeah. So let's flip it. Let's say that your, your parent was actually not legalistic, but licentious. And he was trying to lead you down a path of being completely counter to the life of God. And he gave you a podcast that was pretty filthy. He says, hey, honor me and listen to this. Would you listen to it? Probably not. Both of these are equally dangerous. Legalism and licentious, especially since you had a legalistic background. So I think it would be better, um, to just have an honest conversation with him if you could. And, and the honest conversation is not like, let me prove to why you're a legalist and you're wrong. But we're just saying, you know, I think we've been talking about this for a long time. I just don't think we would agree. And the thing that I want to have, what I value with our family is that we could have a context of love for one another. And listen, I am seeking God every day. And if you think I'm wrong, pray to God and ask him to change me. And, you know, I want to grow. And if there's things in my life I'm willing to change and grow in. But I don't want to make every time we get together this confrontation. I love you. I respect you. But I don't want to be at your throat. And I don't think you want to be at mine either. Can we come to an understanding here? And it kind of just closes that off. And, of course, people change. So maybe years down the road you might feel a place where you feel like you can engage in that conversation in a more deep way. And actually it leads to being more wholesome. I also would say sometimes when people age, they can either mellow or they harden. You know, he might get harder. Just follow his heart. Yeah, he might get harder. And so you just be really kind and say, hey, I just don't want us to have these conversations. You know, and just be confident in the Lord and yet still loving to him. But just being firm on that. You're an adult woman. You know, you could say that. And I think it's totally fine in a respectful way. Yeah. You put your forks close over? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you guys for coming by that. This is a lot of fun. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning. That has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. I will go to the For Freedom Podcast. Thank you.

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