109. Freedom From Depression Part 3 with Christine Chappell

Welcome to the For Freedom podcast. Thank you for being with us today. Man, it has been an event-filled week these past few weeks. James, I've really enjoyed this subject that we talked about recently with depression, and it's just been a real good discussion. But we had a really good time at the For the Sake of the Gospel Conference, didn't you? Man, I had a blast. What a great time to be around the family, to be able to meet new people. People that, I say this every year, people that I know their name and not quite their faces because of the RFP family group. And then I go to talk to them and they tell me their name. I'm like, oh yeah, I remember you shared that post or you did this. And so it was great to be able to be around those people. I got to meet Shannon, who's going to Uganda. She reached out to me today. I forgot to tell you this, Brett. She reached out to me today and she's ready to come onto the podcast to share her story and to share her testimony and what she's going to be doing in Uganda. So be looking for that in just a couple of weeks. But man, it was just a great time hanging out, getting to see all the guys, hanging out with all the ladies, getting to see Emily again. That was great to hang out. My wife, super bummed. She couldn't make it. But next year, I about called you JC. Next year, Brett, we're going to be at JC's church. There's a challenge. Yes. We're going to be at JC's church at Catoosa for the RFP meetup. And I think we're going to try to have some great, you know, maybe rent a big house and have a bunch of people there. It's going to be a great time. So mark your calendars for next year, November 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, something like that. First weekend in November. What was really cool for me is, you know, noticing people just from their Facebook photo. Like you see them walk in and you yell, you yell their name across the room like you've known them for for 50 years. And all you've ever seen of them was a Facebook profile photo. But you have we have so much in common. It was this trip was this conference was 100 percent RFP fam. The time the worship was on point. What about that worship and that family? The hips family. They're church. Oh, wow, man. They man, they laid it down. They tore it up. The worship was often was awesome. The preaching. Oh, Papa Craig got up there. Let's go for the house down. Yep. You know, old Brian had to tell JC to get get thee behind me. Satan with. Sneak spells. Dude, that sneeze scared the crap out of me. I jumped out of my pew. Let's see the couple people that were there. Daniel and Ashley Wynn. Yes. Came in from Texas. Great hanging out with them. James and April Deary. They came in and from Arkansas. Yep. Bob Raynack. Bob Raynack. Yeah. Corey Hall came in. Corey Hall. Jonathan Clemons. Was his last name? Yeah. Jonathan Clemons. Yeah. He was there. We had some some people from Alaska flew in. Oh, man. Dude. Yeah. They flew in from Alaska, landed in Nashville and then drove to Asheville. And that was just amazing that they got to do that. We got to do lunch with them on Saturday. Man, so many more we could mention. I just want to show some names out there. Was John was John Hallifield there? Let me check my list. No, he was not. What a bum. Yeah, I know. We did get special status by being at the conference. Brett, we were the we were the first and only group that was there. First and only. At the meetup. And so we are officially gold star status for the RFP network. And we are all all of the other podcasts are the younger brothers that went off into the world. Yeah, we're we're the older brother. We stayed. Stayed with dad. Yes. So it was great to have that and be able to be a part of it. Well, Brett, second news here. Second big thing is. Israel. We're in a big crisis in Israel right now. What's going on with our trip to Israel and give us a little bit of an update. So, Israel, you had the opportunity to get with Pari at the North Carolina State Convention. And we have some news concerning our trip that we're going on. We're obviously we're going to push it back. We're going to push it back a year. Give us more time to get more people signed up. Give time things to settle down over there. They are not going to let us go over there with things unsafe. Yael Tours is not going to let us go over there if it's unsafe. The Israeli government is not going to let us go over there if it's unsafe. Neither will the American government. So when we do go over there, it will be 100% safe for us to go. But we're going to push our trip back a year. Give us about 18 months from now to kind of get things together. And so I'm still looking forward to going. I mean, they offered us to go to Greece, to go to Rome, go to Turkey. And all those are great places. But, man, I want to go to the Holy Land. Yeah. I want to go to Israel. And so we're just looking forward about that. Any other details on the trip you want to give? Yeah. I'll just say it was great to talk to Puri. Marcus, we forgot about Marcus. He was at the meetup. He also got to spend three days with me in North Carolina at the convention as well. But speaking with Puri, this is the thing that was so discouraging for me. Talking to her, she said that, you know, the safety issue right now for where they're at, and where we went to, there's no safety concerns whatsoever right now. All the violence has been pushed to the borders, north and south to Gaza. And so she said around Jerusalem, the old city, around the Sea of Galilee, there's not any violence going on whatsoever. But she said what was hurting for her, her daughter serving in the military. And she said her own brothers and sisters, they consider everyone that's a Jew, a brother and sister. Her own Israeli nation is burning Jewish flags and riding in the street, basically calling death to the Jews. Her own Jewish people, her own Israelis. And she said, every time she turns around, there's just hate, there's fear. And she's made this statement. She said, James, she said, I want to get away so I can be around people who support Israel. And me and Marcus both looked there and said, I don't think you could have picked a better place to go than a pastor's conference in the South. Right. I mean, we're Baptist pastors that love Israel, that love Jerusalem, and we're going to be for you. And I brought probably 25 pastors to her. They all loved her, hugged her neck, told her they're praying for her. They've been praying for her. They took an offering up this past. I mean, different things over and over and over again that you could just see by the end of the day one, day two, her whole countenance and spirit was just so much better because she was around those people. And it was tough. She said she was in the airport and they called her, her, her road to board. And she said, I almost didn't leave because I didn't want to leave my family behind because I know my daughter's fighting right now. And she said, it was tough, but I knew I needed to, and I needed to be around people that were for Israel and for the Jewish nation. So it was to be, to be there. That's good stuff. So excited about going March of 2025. If you, if you're on the border about going, man, sign up, we'll use that same link. We'll update the website information and we'll send that out. We'll have that on our website as well. Brad, I realized I've never put that on our website, our trip. So I'll put that on the website and I'll get it all lined up. And then Brett, we did an interview. We got an interview coming up today. Tell us about that. Yes, we did. Yes, we did. We had an interview today with Christina Chappell and she is the author of Midnight Mercies, Walking with God Through Depression in Motherhood. Now, a little bit about Christina. She's a certified biblical counselor, currently serves as the Hope and Health podcast host for the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. She's been featured in websites like Desiring God, The Gospel Coalition, Risen, Motherhood, and many, many other Christian platforms. And we are so thankful to get to interview her today. I was not able to make the interview, but James, you interviewed her earlier today. And man, I'm looking forward to hearing this interview. Yeah, man, it was great. Christine, she's a great lady, fantastic friend of mine, and just been able to get to know her virtually over the last couple of years. And I know you're going to love it. If you struggle with depression or you know someone who struggled with depression, this episode is going to be for you. She lays out some awesome, awesome, great things. One reference I'll just give you as a tease, Romans 15, 4. And basically it says that endurance and encouragement come together. In order to be encouraged, you have to endure through the things that you're going through. And she lays it out awesome. I can't wait for you to listen to it. And so here is the interview with Miss Christine. All righty. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. I found my freedom in you. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Saferick and Brett Martin. Well, welcome back. We've got an interview lined up today with Miss Christine. And we've had her on here before. This is multiple times of trying to reline this interview back up. We've had some editing difficulties the first time, recording issues the first time. But Miss Christine has come out with a new book called Midnight Mercies. And we're going to be talking to that book and talking through what sort of how she got it and sort of the inspiration behind that. And so Miss Christine, welcome to the podcast. What are some of your life events and things that have happened over recently? I know you just got back from the ACBC conference. You got back from another conference I saw you were at. And so you've been busy. Sort of what's been going on in your life recently. Yeah. Well, thank you, James, for the invitation to come back to the show. I always have a great time chatting with you. And yeah, you're right. I have been quite a few places in the last couple of months. It was at TGC in Indianapolis, ACBC in California, and then CCEF in Virginia. And if you aren't aware of what all those letters stand for, it's okay. Just know it's been a lot of flying and driving for me the last few weeks. But I'm definitely thankful to be back home in my writing cave, I call it, working on a couple of new things while also maintaining my own podcast, the Hope and Help podcast. And so though traveling has come to an end temporarily, go back out on the road in December, I'm thankful to just be home and with my cozy blankets and yeah, just not having to go places for a little while. Absolutely. It's been great. So you wrote a new book for Midnight Mercies and a great read. I've used it several times as I was sharing with you about just helping others. But what was the inspiration for you to write this new book? And what have you seen since this book? Because the books came out. It's been released for a little while. Have you got any feedback from the book itself? Yeah. So the inspiration for writing, and I think there are probably a few different things I could say about that. But I think ultimately, I've always felt like I have wanted to steward my story. So steward the various sorrows that I have been through in my adult life for the purposes of comforting others with the comfort that God has given to me. I was really impacted when I read a quote from Paul David Tripp in his Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands book. And I read that book a long time ago when I was a new believer, but continued to just be impacted by the statement he makes in that book where he says that our suffering does not belong to us. And for some reason, that just really hit me that the things that I had gone through, depression, suicidal ideation, self-harm, panic attacks, eating disorder, just kind of the whole gamut of mess that I've gone through with emotional struggles and things of that nature, that I could live, you know, I could have purpose in the midst of all of that by stewarding my story for the sake of God's glory and comforting his people and making Christ the center of that narrative that he's unfolding in my life. And so since the book has come out, I have gotten very encouraging words of feedback. I'm just thankful to be at this point in the process where I get to kind of sit back and watch how the Lord is going to use the words that took me three years to try to wrestle onto paper, because it was a very long and arduous process, but definitely one worth wrestling through. And so I'm thankful if it is at all helpful to anyone. I have zero confidence in myself in terms of my writing ability, but it seems as though because the word is so present in the pages that, of course, through the spirit, it's having an impact on people's hearts and helping them to have hope in the midst of a dark season. Well, that's great. I do like how you said we don't have to live in our struggle. So there's freedom, there's hope for us to come out of that with God's help and God's grace. And it's great to see that and to see your story and to hear your story over the years of knowing you. It's been incredible to see that. But what is your ultimate hope from the book, from writing this book? What do you hope the readers get when they finish this book, when they've digested it, maybe two or three times of reading it? I know I don't have to, I don't just read a book once. Sometimes I'll read it two or three times to fully get it. What do you hope that they see come from that reading? Yeah, well, the subtitle for Midnight Mercies is Walking with God Through Depression in Motherhood. And so this is not a book on motherhood. It's a book that really one of the goals that I had was to help despondent women, despondent mothers articulate their despair with words, with emotions, being able to identify emotions in their experience that they may not have otherwise been able to do on their own. I know for me, when I was walking through depression, I suffered on and off for nearly 15 or 16 years, I think. And that was one of the most challenging pieces of the experience was to not be able to describe it to other people. It's like I can't even understand what it is that I'm feeling, let alone try to help somebody else understand how I'm feeling so that they can help me. It was a very discouraging thing. And so that's one of the things I hope to do in this book is to offer a language that women can use to articulate their grief, their sorrow, their despair, their hopelessness. But more than that, I want to help people, my readers in particular, to recognize that, you know, when we say I'm depressed, right, that's like a really great starting point to identifying, you know, our felt reality in the season that we're in. But we don't want to stop there because in and of itself, that term depression, for me, I've been so helped by viewing it as kind of an umbrella word that, you know, really encapsulates a multifaceted human experience. And when we, you know, I lean a lot on Ed Welch sometimes in the book, and I love how he helps us to think about depression as having a voice. And that depression, when we experience it, is trying to say something, right? Depression has a heart to it. And so what is that heart saying? What is depression saying? And I think that when we listen to the words that we speak in our depression, we can come to find a little bit more of what that heart is saying. We hear notes of hopelessness, weariness, sadness, anger, anxiety, shame, and loneliness. You know, those aren't the only notes that we can hear in depression's dirge, but definitely some of the common ones. And so each chapter of the book dives into those particular emotional experiences in depression, helps to give words to that experience, but then namely takes readers into a particular biblical narrative where we see one of God's people wrestling intensely with that particular emotion and how God engages that person in that particular moment in time. Because that's something I think as we walk through depression, we have a hard time sensing is God's disposition toward us, his dealings with us. But over and over again in Midnight Mercies, each chapter we go through, we see how God compassionately and mercifully cares for those unique individuals in the ways that they need most, and then leads them to take their next small step in faithful obedience according to his counsel and his comfort. So I could go on and on, but those are some of the things that I hope to, that readers will take away from this book and, you know, ultimately to know that, as you mentioned, James, at the beginning that, you know, we may not, we're blind often in our experience of darkness. We don't know how to get out for the lights to turn back on again, but we can have hope that God is bringing light to our darkness, that he is making the rough places smooth before us, and that he will not forsake us in that process, but it does require for us to wait patiently for him and to watch for him to work in our lives. Yeah. I know for me, when I preach a message, it works on my life many weeks before I ever bring it to the church. God's working in me and dealing with me on different issues. I've never written a book. I don't ever have a plan to write a book. I'm not a great writer by any means. I get critiqued all the time on my grammar issues. So I am not a writer, but in writing this book, I can almost imagine in the same sense as preaching a message. How has writing this book impacted you? What are some ways that it's changed your mindset of even dealing with motherhood or depression in your own life? Yeah. I mean, I think I've heard it often said and that, you know, when like, it's just what you even just said, but even from a writer's perspective, and this, I think, especially when we are aspiring to write for the Lord, you know, that, that we will have to live what it is, you know, that we're writing about. And I had already lived so much, many years in depression and all of those different overwhelming emotions. So I was surprised to, to the degree that I had to relive those particular emotions, not necessarily in the context of depression anymore, but just an everyday Christian life, you know? And so an example of that would be on the weariness chapter was that I was trying to write for the second time. So James, I had gone about a year and a half into my contract and then realized that the 90% of the book that I had written was not what I wanted to say. And so I started all over. And so for the second time of writing this weariness chapter, I also got COVID. I got really super sick. And I remember being in the shower and like, Lord, I can't do this. I'm feeling so weary. And how am I going to ever finish? And just that sense of like defeat, which is kind of what weariness can tempt us to feel is that we're just downright defeated. And so I had to like wrestle with that, the narrative and that, that chapter I talk about is Elijah and, you know, that just kind of how God engaged Elijah in that moment, you know, of his, his fainting fit as Spurgeon would say. And, and so I won't go into that, you know, necessarily, but definitely had to live, you know, what it is that I was writing. And I think that that served a wonderful redemptive purpose of really just, you know, I think when we are endeavoring to offer counsel from God's word to people, it's so much more meaningful when it's something that we ourselves have had to meditate on and wrestle with. And we, we felt those urges. We felt those temptations to doubt. We felt those temptations to despair or to, or, you know, those, those cries of lament or whatever it is. And so we know the experience, we know how hard it was to go through and having that personal experience then equips us to not be harsh and hasty when we are caring for other people, because we can remember how hard it was for us as limited humans who are not sufficient in themselves. You know, we had to rely fully on God who raises the dead for the strength and endurance that we needed. And so, yeah, the writing process definitely has changed me and shaped me. And I think that I thank God for sustaining me because there were many times when I wanted to quit. I'm sure James, you know, in ministry, when things get hard, as I so often do, right, is, is can be tempting to throw in the towel and say, God, I just can't. And this is too hard. But I've found that those are the precise moments where his grace is sufficient and that we can lean on him and also not be in a hurry to get things done. Yeah. Which I think was a big lesson I pulled from this book, having to work on it for three years instead of like the 12 months that we originally thought it would take to write it. Yes. Patience is one of those things that we don't often have that we struggle with. And we want things to get done quicker because we have other things we want to do. And we can definitely be in that pitfall. One of the things you talk about in your book is the, the fix it mentality. Explain a little bit. And again, we don't want to give away the whole book, but explain a little bit of the danger of the fix mentality in depression and why we want to avoid that mentality in our life. Yeah. Yeah. I get that, you know, piece of counsel is something where I'm passing along that God had showed me in my years of, of trying to be depression free is what I call it, you know? And I thought that was a really great goal. You know, it's a great goal for a Christian to not, to be depression free. I mean, who wants to have depression and doesn't it honor God? If I just am not feeling that way often, like, seems like it makes sense to me. Right. But I really came to a point where that's, that kind of mentality of, I'm feeling depressed. I need to figure out how to not ever feel this way anymore. That type of mentality began to over time, like take over my motive for living. You know, it began to be the thing that if I couldn't figure out how to make that happen, life was not worth living anymore. And that's dangerous. You know, when, when our motive for living is to be sorrow free, to only ever experience the pleasant emotions, never the negative ones to kind of achieve a level of emotional prosperity that we don't necessarily see in the scriptures. Right. It is not necessarily, we're not being called to live sorrow free lives, but we are called to engage the Lord in our sorrows and to walk with him through it. That's abiding. That's what abiding in Christ is. Right. And so I think for me, I just got to a point where I was so weary from the suffering, weary from the, the endeavor that I had of trying to fix myself, of trying to just always have stable, a stable emotional life that I really just kind of bypassed, you know, the grace that God was giving to me and the mercy he was giving to me by, by realizing he's like, look, Jesus suffered all of my sorrows perfectly on my behalf, that I would have the freedom to rest fully in his righteousness when I feel depressed. That God was not calling me to do some kind of miraculous performance through my seasons of sorrow, through the hurt and heartbreak I felt. It wasn't some kind of like test of, will you suffer all of your hardships and trials perfectly? Right. And we can be tempted to feel that weight on us, but that is not the savior who says, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Right. Because his burden is easy or his yoke is easy and his burden is light. And so I think that's one of the main things that, really just transformed my whole perspective on even feeling depressed, was recognizing that God wasn't calling me to be depression free. He wasn't calling me to work myself out of the low moods that I would find myself in. He was asking me to wait and to watch for him to come to me, to walk with him through the darkness, to engage him in my overwhelming emotions, and to trust that he would turn the darkness before me into light. Yeah. Well, and you know, this, you were talking about that and I was thinking about it. Nowhere in scripture does it say we're going to have a life that's never going to have problems. No, no character in the Bible has ever had that. And yet in the, I hate to say in the advent of social media, because there's always been a, a square of people where people go a common square, a town hall and whatever it is. But in the world of social media, now everyone is putting their best foot forward. You know, there, no one's saying, no one's putting a picture out when they're at their lowest point and like, Hey, look at how low my life is. No, it's, it's always the greatest part of their life. They're showing off and we can get so caught up in, well, my life's not like that. And we get into this comparing game and it can make this depression even more of a, of a spiral because we begin to compare ourselves. You know, Elijah did it. Elijah did it. They, Elijah said, well, it was me. I'm I'm Lord. I'm the only servant out there and just go ahead and kill me now. And God said, no, you knucklehead. There's a thousand other ones right behind you. You just, you're not looking. And so I can definitely see where, when we get into this state of mentality, it can begin to spiral so much more quickly in today's day and age than even when I was a teenager at 17, 18 years ago. And so I definitely can, can agree with that. Well, let me even just, if I can add to that real fast, James, is I think that you're spot on in the fact that, you know, even in our cultural, you know, climate today with social media and even the marketing messages that we see on TV, you know, the, the, Hey, if you've got a sad face, we've got a medication that will give you a happy face. You know, you, I mean, literally they have a sad face on the screen. You take this pill. And while they're listing the dozens of side effects, well, don't mind that too much. Look at the fact that you could have a happy face. Right. You know, and then, and there's a sense in which our sorrows are everyday, normal Christian hardships, the normal amounts of sorrows that come as a, as a believer walking through a fallen world. I mean, everyone walks through sorrows, but I think we sometimes forget that Christians, right? That God's people will walk through particularly more, more, there'll be more sorrows that we face as Christians for a number of different reasons. But I always, when I talk about this, I think of the fact that Jesus said that, you know, the way to life is the way to destruction is wide and easy. Right. But the, but the way that leads to life is narrow and hard. And we are walking the master's way. We are on that hard path. There will be suffering before glory, but culturally speaking, suffering has been abnormalized. If you're suffering, if you're sad, if you're going through something, well, that's not, that's not, you know, what normal people experience, normal people experience, you know, prosperity and happiness and fulfillment and satisfaction and all that they do. And if you're not feeling that, well, then you've got something wrong with you and here's how you can fix it. Right. And of course, even that perspective, as I'm hearing myself talk about it, they are recognizing that there is something wrong in the world. And so that's right. Right. But the solutions are wrong that they offer. And so I think that's important too, is, is to recognize that as a culture, we have really, you know, seen the abnormalization of sorrow and people wrestling through difficult emotions to the degree that if anyone experiences them, it's, it's as if they have a significant impairment that, you know, needs, needs urgent correction. And so we see those problems as somewhat useless or purposeless. It's, you know, it's like, there's no value in the suffering. We just want to eradicate it as quickly as possible. And not to say that, you know, we want to suffer. Right. But just, you know, the fact that we might think that that's abnormal is, you know, is definitely cause for concern. Yeah. This past weekend, I was in Asheville and my friend, JC Groves preached a message on Psalms 23 and really brought it to a new level, even in my life and understanding, been meditating on it this whole weekend, but he made a statement there, I think in verse four, where it says, uh, even though you walk through the value of the shadow of death and he, he pulled this out. He said, what can a shadow do to you? Nothing new that we haven't heard before, but it was just great for me to hear a shadow. Can't do anything for you. There's the, it can't hurt you. Can't harm you. It can't do anything to hurt you, but it's the shadow of death. It's the fear of what could happen. And it says, I will fear no evil. Why? Because God is with us. And it's not saying that we're never going to go through those moments of depression or fear and anxiety, but because God is with us, we can walk through those times. And it's so important to understand that, that just because you read this awesome book that Christine wrote, you're not going to no longer have depression. Like you're not going to have any more anxiety. No, we're going to still have it, but we're going to have the tools in our belt to help us when we go through those times of struggle, difficulty, depression, depression that are going to happen in our life. So what are the words of encouragement to you would offer to a mom or someone who's currently walking through depression? Maybe a verse or something that you've, that you've learned over these last 18, 24 months of writing this book. And what would you give them to help them out? Yeah. You know, normally I would share the Isaiah 42, 16. Well, maybe I'm just going to share it because I'm talking about it. So Isaiah 42, 16 was really the verse that I leaned on to come up with the term midnight mercies. And there, you know, the Lord is talking and saying that, that he will lead the blind in a way that they do not know on paths. They have not known. I will guide them. I will turn the darkness before them into light, the rough places into level ground. These are the things I do and I do not forsake them. And so there's so much wrapped up in that verse. That was so meaningful to me. The fact that God knew I felt blind. And the fact that he didn't know that, that he knew I didn't know how to not feel that way. Right. I didn't know how to not feel depressed. I had been trying. I have been trying really hard to feel differently than I actually was. And it may be sometimes succeeded for a little while, but then I would just crash again, you know, so to kind of relying on my own self, my own sufficiency, my own strength to overcome, you know, but then I love how he inserts that promise of hope that look, he's doing a work to bring light to the darkness. He's doing his work to level the ground before me. That seems rocky right now, you know, and he says, these are the things I do. And I think there's so much mercy in that statement because he's recognizing that we can't do that for ourselves. I can't bring light to my darkness. I can't level out the road before me that he's got me on. I have to wait for him to do that work in my life. But what is the hope that we have in that waiting? Just like you were talking about, James, that hope that we have in that waiting is he says this, and I do not forsake them. So even though you feel blind, even though you are stuck in darkness, even though the road is hard, God is still at work in your life, even though you can't see it. And the fact that you're in darkness, the fact that the road is hard, the fact that you're blind does not mean he's forsaken you. It's not an evidence of forsakenness. It's an evidence that we exist in this fallen, broken world, and we have need of redemption. We have need of a redeemer, and God knows this. And so he commits to be that for us. I mean, he's given us Christ, which is the fulfillment of that, of the Isaiah 42, 16 promise, right, is Christ himself. But the last thing I'll say, James, because this has been something I've been kind of chewing on this past week, so it's fresh in my mind, is I think a lot about, like, what do depress, what are the needs of depressed people, you know, spiritually speaking? And these two words that come to mind are encouragement and endurance, because depressed people are discouraged people, right, for a number of different reasons. And I won't go into all of those right now, but encouragement and endurance. And I love that. And I didn't realize it until this morning that those two words that have been popped up in my head are actually found together in Romans 15, four, and I'm going to read the verse to you here. It says, for everything that was written in the past was written to teach us so that through the endurance taught in the scriptures and the encouragement they provide, we might have hope. And so I, this is, I just love this particular verse and dwelling on the fact that that encouragement and endurance, as a pastor, you're James, James, you're a pastor. For me, I'm a friend, I'm a counselor, you know, so when we want to even care for those who are walking through darkness and waiting on the Lord to come to, to help them to bring light that they so desperately need through Christ, that we can offer sufferers encouragement to help them to endure the waiting that they are in. And so anyway, we find that particular encouragement in the scriptures. And I think in Midnight Mercies in particular, we find the encouragement by watching God's care, His merciful, compassionate, patient care for those who are suffering, and that He gives them one small, simple step forward that is in their power to do, to make it through the moment that they're in. And that is how we endure depression and suffering in general, is that God gives us that one step that we can take in faithful obedience to Him, that we might not grow weary in doing good, even as we experience suffering as believers. Well, that's fantastic. Romans 15, four, mark it, put it in your Bible, save it in your notes for when you need that encouragement, that help in those hard days that you can go through. It's fantastic. We'll wrap up with this final question. I know you mentioned Ed Welch a couple of times, but what are some additional resources that people can go to? Maybe you found helpful in your counseling area that can help people that are struggling with depression or in this area of just loneliness and anxiety, but how would you help them? What are some resources that you would recommend to them? Yeah, well, a lot of the perspective that I had, you know, in, actually, I didn't even mention that Midnight Mercies tracks, lightly tracks a week that I spent in the mental hospital after just having a total breakdown. And, you know, one of the books that the Lord used to really bring that kind of fix it mentality, watershed moment to me, that I had been actually doing so much harm to myself by being so merciless to myself, thinking that I needed to suffer my heartbreaks and hurts perfectly. One of the books that God used in addition to Ed Welch's book on depression was Dr. Charles Hodge's book called Good Mood, Bad Mood, Help and Hope for Depression and Bipolar Disorder, where he really just helps us to understand and qualify what is normal sadness versus disordered sadness. And the reality that one statement he made in that book, he said in a counseling context that he was in, you know, helping people to get, to make the goal not to be free from their burden, right? Whether it's depression or any other kind of counseling issue or suffering they face, but to make the goal for living, I want to glorify God with my life more than I want to breathe. And the way that that hit me in depression was I had been living a life that said, I want to be depression free more than I want to breathe. So it was no wonder that when I couldn't figure out how to be depression free, I didn't want to live anymore. And that's, that's how we can locate what it is that we're truly living for is if we don't get it, is life still worth living? And so anyway, I'll get off of that there. That book is great. I definitely recommend it. I also was so helped by Spurgeon Sorrows by Doc, by Zach Eswine. And then a new book that I didn't have access to at the time of the hospitalization, but that I have used so frequently in my own personal life since then is of course, Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy by Mark Vroga, a book that helps us to discover the grace of lament, which was not a tool that I was equipped with. I'm in my 15, 16 years of suffering depression. And so I definitely would commend that resource to your listeners if they haven't read it already. Fantastic. I think I just picked up Good Mood, Bad Mood. It's one of my next on my reading list to do. And so excited about that. Glad that you mentioned that as well. Well, I think that comes to the end of our interview. Are there any closing thoughts you want to give? Any encouragement? Anything else that maybe you didn't ask or something you'd like to say before we wrap this up? Yeah, I think what might be helpful to your listeners, just in terms of a practical thing that I could say is that we do have Midnight Mercies is available, not just as a paperback, but as a digital and more importantly, as an audio book. And sometimes when someone's walking through depression, particularly a mother, it may be really hard for her to sit down and read. You know, she may have trouble concentrating. And so listening to an audio book may be something that's more within her reach in the season of life that she's in. And so it was really important to me that that was available. And I'm thankful to PNR Publishing for investing in that format for our prospective listeners. And the other thing that I would say is I think I would disclose the conversation with, you know, some affirming, comforting words from the Lord, which he says in Isaiah 46. And he, in verse three, and just to remind your listeners that, that the Lord has carried you from the womb. He says that in verse four, even to your old age, I am he and to your gray hair and, and to gray hairs, I will carry you. I have made you and I will bear, I will carry and I will save. And so he's just giving us those words of like, look, I knew you since before you even were knitted together. I knew all of your dark days before even one of them came to pass. And he knew all of the ways in which you would struggle and sin and cry and groan and be weak and needy. He knew all of that and still decided to set his love on you as a unique individual. And his promise is that even to your old age, when your hairs are gray, he will continue to carry you, to bear you up and to ensure that you arrive safely into his arms and glory. And so you can go on into your day with that promise, knowing that he will keep you, he will keep you safe until you get to his presence in heaven. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Christine, for coming and encouraging our listeners and wrapping up this series on depression. There are listeners, we are going to be getting going into a new series here soon. When Brett comes back, he was on vacation this week for recording, but we're excited about our stuff coming up at the end of this year and also to start out the next year. So until next time, to God be the glory. I found my new name, found that good grace, found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance, found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since, I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast or whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast.

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