148. Crossover Event with Grow In Grace Podcast

I found my freedom in you I found a joy I can't lose And thank God it's true You wrapped your arms around me And heaven broke through From the moment you found me I found my freedom in you Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Safer and Brad Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. What an awesome time we have had in this short little mini-series of getting other podcasts part of the network together and being able to interview and talk with them. We've got a great lineup today with Growing Grace and with the ladies, Shana and Kristen. And it's going to be an awesome time talking with them over the role of women in the church and what that looks like. And so we hope you guys enjoy that here in just a little bit. But Brett, man, we are T-minus less than 24 hours from being at Ringgold, Catoosa, some state there in East Ridge area, on East Ridge Road, at the new Hope Church in Catoosa area, Ringgold area, Fort Ocathorpe, wherever you want to call it, whatever you want to get. Just whatever you need to do at this moment. Cancel all your plans. Get on a vehicle, a bus, a train, a plane, whatever you can find, and get yourself to Georgia for the For the Sake of the Gospel Part 3, Volume 3, Episode 3, whatever you want to call it. We're meeting for the third time for the third For the Sake of the Gospel Conference, and it's going to be better than you can ever imagine. We want you to be there. I want you to be there, and I want to hang out with you. I want to talk with you. I want to get dinner with you. I want to hang out, and it's going to be an awesome time, but it won't be awesome if you're not there. And so we want you to be there. Brett, man, we're coming into the long haul stretch. You're about to get in a vehicle. You're about to start driving. I'm about to start driving down there, and it's going to be awesome. Man, what preparations have you been making to get ready for the conference? You know, they say that when you have movies and you have a three-part movie, a trilogy, that the third movie is the best. And so that's what we're looking for. This is the bookend of a trilogy of conferences, and it's going to be awesome. Man, we leave first thing in the morning, crack of dawn. We're packing up. We're heading that way. I've got to get this recorded because I've got so much stuff to do to prepare. I've got to go to the bank. We've got to change my oil. We've got to pack. We've got to wash and dry clothes and just get everything ready because we're excited to go and get on the road and get to this. Got to leave a little room in there for a Bucky's trip. You know, we've got to stop by Bucky's. Let's go. Get some beaver nuggets and some brisket sandwiches. And, you know, so, you know, a little jerky for the road. So put some Bucky's time in there and pay homage to the great beaver god. Yes. And, Lord, I apologize. That was wrong. A little idolatry for you this morning. Brett, have you seen the picture of the lady that's outside the Bucky's there at the Bucky statue, and she's bowing down to the statue, the golden statue? It says it's the new statue that it was the statue that Aaron made when Moses came off of Mount Sinai. It was Bucky's statue. Exactly. Exactly. That's what it's turned into. Yeah. But, yeah. So there's this – I don't know if you've seen it, but there is this – these two guys on YouTube, their names are Josh and Ollie, and so their channel is called Jolly. And what they do is they are two Brits, but they react to stuff. And they blew up overnight because they came over and they started reacting to stuff in America. Like the first time they tried Mississippi catfish, the first time they tried Texas barbecue, and the video that they did when they went to Bucky's just blew up. I mean, they're trying beaver nuggets and jerky and praline pecans. Of course, they call them pecans. But there's really pecans, you know, for same people. Absolutely. And so, yeah. So got to get ready to make the Bucky stop, get all our ducks in a row, and then we're going after the conference. That's when I take my vacation. So then we're heading to Chattanooga to do some things, headed up to the Smoky Mountains, and spend a little time up in the great Smoky Mountains. And so we're definitely looking forward to it this year. It's going to be great. Yep. Brad, I'm going to have to look up that channel and watch the old Jolly there. And I'm going to have to see. Maybe they got something from Bucky's that I need to stop and get that I haven't experienced. The Bucky nuts are fantastic. They got two Bucky videos. One video where they first went, and they got all cold stuff. They didn't get any hot stuff. And then a year later, they went back to Bucky's, and they got all food. They got the brisket sandwiches. They got the Philly cheesesteak burrito. Did you know that they have a candle in Bucky's that smells like beaver nuggets? No, I did not. So I have candles in my office. I'm going to get me a beaver nugget candle when I go back to Bucky's. So my office will smell like beaver nuggets. That's awesome. But, yeah, it's called Jolly. And so, yeah, check them out. Well, Brett, we're T-minus 24 hours from being there in Georgia. If you're like me, I haven't even packed yet. I pack the day before I leave. And so tonight I'll get my suitcase out, and we'll load everything up. My wife's already got all the kids' stuff rolled up, packed up, looking great in the suitcase. My stuff's not even been touched yet. And she hates it because literally it takes me like three and a half seconds to pack. I throw a couple of outfits in there, don't even care what I'm throwing in, and we just go. And so I don't know how you are with that. If you pack or if your wife packs for you, but it's just not. I'm a last-minute packer. Like I'll pack myself, but like I wait to the very last possible second to pack. That's just my nature. Leaving at 6 a.m., you get up at 5, you throw some clothes in there, and you hit the road. Yeah. Yeah. I might do it like 30 seconds before I go to bed, I'll pack. But that's just how I am. And you know, Brett, for me, it's not that everything else in my life I plan out like long-term. Like I've got things planned for next year, end of next year, already on my calendar. But for something about packing, it's like, eh, it'll get there. Like just don't worry about it. My thing is when I pack for a vacation, I'm ready to go. Like I need to leave. Yeah. So there's no sitting around. I don't want to keep looking at the suitcase full of all the stuff. No, yeah, exactly. And I definitely don't want to go digging in it for stuff that I'm going to need. So I wait to the last possible second. That's good. That's good. I love it. And so I hope you are not waiting to the last possible second to make your way to Georgia. I hope you've made plans to be down there and to be down there with us. So today we've got the Growing Grace ladies. And so we're going to jump right into that episode. Hey, can we make fun of them for not coming to the conference? Yeah, we're going to do. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to make fun of them the whole time. Yes. Point number one in our notes is rip the ladies face off for not coming to the conference. So yeah, you'll see that in our show notes. Awesome. Can't wait. Hope you're going to be there. And I hope you enjoy today's episode. What kind of shallow person do you want to become? Recovering from fundamentalism or something. They're everywhere. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. If there's such a word, you're stupider now. Don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and we'll all flub up together. We are excited to have with us today. The growing grace podcast. The ladies part of the network here and excited about having them come on and talk about a timely topic, a topic that I think is going to invoke some good friendly talking today. And we want to start out by just ripping the girls for not coming tomorrow to the conference for the sake of the gospel conference. This is two years in a row, guys. This is two years you have missed. And it may constitute taking you guys out of the network. I'm not sure. I think if they really, really cared, they would be there. Yeah. Listen, guys. We may have a quick business meeting while we're there. And JC is going to moderate for the network. And we're going to have a vote to see if we want you guys to be there or not. It's tough. If it comes from a committee, it doesn't need a second. Amen. Amen. That's how I learned that. Spoken like true pastors. That's right. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Yeah. I'm going to need y'all to calm down a little bit. Love it. So we have, this is the second time we've done this crossover event. And since we last got together and recorded, which was, I think, two years ago. I mean, I think it's the last time we did a crossover. I think we did something for your show. And I just have never released it on our show about theology or something. But things have changed. Kristen, we can't see you because your computer's messed up. But there's something happened big in your life since we last talked. Yeah. I went and got married. Oh, my goodness. You got domesticated. Exactly. Shanna finally got to release her single friend to marriage. Love it. Because we had met your fiancé or his boyfriend at the time at the last meetup in Virginia. And we had lunch with him, I think, there. Yeah. And he stayed. I mean, we didn't scare him off too much. No. And then it was only about a month later that we were out in Texas visiting Shanna for New Year's Eve. And we got engaged. Were you part of that event, Shanna? I was. Her husband. Her husband. This is how he loves her so well. Because he could have, like, proposed to her anywhere. And, like, the whole, the way they got here, like, they had a flight and everything. And I don't know what happened, but it was canceled. And so they just jumped in a car and drove here. Wow. Yeah. Because he was determined to make this happen. Right. It was when Southwest kind of had their, like, breakdown. And that was the flights that we had. And so I don't remember which one of the Southwest issues. But, yeah, we hopped in a car for 15 hours. I had an inkling that a proposal was going to be happening. And I knew Shanna wanted to be a part of it. And so I was like, oh, we kind of got to get down there. So, yeah, we hopped in a 15-hour car ride and went down there and spent a week and got married in May and the following year. And here we are about a year and a half into marriage. And it's great. Love it. If you can survive a 15-hour car ride with another human being, you can survive the rest of your life with them. That's pretty much what he said. That's the litmus test. Yes. Yeah, he's going out. Right after me and my wife got married, we drove to Idaho. It was a 24-hour drive. So it was two days. And then four years into the ministry there, we left and came to North Carolina with two kids. One was two and one was a newborn, two months old. And we did a 36-hour, 40-hour drive. We did it in three different days with a newborn and a two-year-old. So to say that we tested our marriage, we tested it really, really hard. And so I think if we can survive those things and you can survive a long drive like that, it definitely can be a foolproof. I think it should be a standard thing before you get married. Go on like a 15, 20-hour road trip with your foreseeable spouse and see how things are going to go. Man, 15 hours for a marriage, but the RFP, man, it's not. That's right. That's right. Not 10 hours. I know. I do. I am really sad that I'm missing it. I hate I'm so far away. Like it's a long drive for me. And then plane tickets are really expensive. So. That is unreal how much the plane tickets are. I know. I just looked like last week and I was like, oh. Would you fly to Love Field or DFW or where? DFW. Yeah. Well, Love Field Southwest is typically pretty good. I've flown, my sister lives in McKinney. I was out there just a couple of weeks ago. You're so close. I know. Say hi next time. We were there for like 36 hours. We went from Arkansas to her house, so we couldn't. Yeah. But yeah. Well, Brett, why don't you introduce the topic today? I'm sorry, Shanna, anything new in your life? We haven't talked to you in a while. Oh, it's okay, guys. It's okay. We were all excited about Kristen getting married. We forgot to even talk about you. No new kids? Yeah. No new kids? She can't see my face. Excuse me, ma'am. No new kids. It's an inside joke with us. She thinks she's funny. No, I'm just here being faithful, homeschooling my kids and serving in my church. And the Lord's been kind to give me some like speaking opportunities, which is really fun with what we're talking about today. It is. And so I've just been able to spend a lot of time with the Lord and study. And I'm wondering, like, how are you pastors? I have so many things that I'm studying for. Like, how do you? I'm like, I don't even know my brain. I don't have ADD. Maybe I do, actually, honestly. There's lots of tabs in my brain. I'm like, how do pastors do this all the time? I actually had that conversation yesterday with a friend of mine. He's just took over as a student pastor, not a student pastor, college pastor. He was asking me, like, what I'm going to be preaching on, where I'm at. And I'm a, I've listened to a lot of, oh, Kristen's back. We can see her. Sorry. Sorry. I'm going to try it. No. Oh, she's gone. That's our ADD. We can't focus. What was I saying? Oh, I listened to a lot of Mark Dever and how he plans out his preaching calendar, different things. And so I've taken some notes on that. And so, like, I try to plan out a couple of months where I'm going to be at. And so it really helps me, you know, not be so ADD and just focus on where I'm at. So it's, it's. What's in front of you. That's helpful. Because, and I've, I've heard this a long time ago, you can plan out for the future, but the necessity of the immediate will always take over. You know, someone passes away, someone's in the hospital as a pastor, like that's got to be, we've got to be there. And so what's going to come up on Sunday is going to get pushed back further and further unless you have a plan ready. So that's sort of how my, my mindset is. So my, my, my pastor growing up, of course, he was a topical preacher, you know, but what he would do is every week he would preach in a different part of the Bible and then he would jump around. And I tried that for a while and it is the most stressful thing that I just, I just can't do. So I just, I got to do the series. I've got the plan. I've got to know where I'm going. And it takes so much stress off of it that, you know, the three, you know, four, eight weeks out, what passages you're going to preach on, what you're going to, what you're going to study. It takes a lot of the pressure off of it. Right. I'm learning. So we are talking today, right in segue there. We are talking today about the rise of feminism in the local church. Our notes say Sheologians. And then just, you know, just what were your thoughts on that? Good, bad, indifferent. And then we're going to talk about the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 had an update in 2023 at their annual gathering at the Southern Baptist Convention approved a change to that. It expanded the language of, that the roles were limited to men is no longer just pastor, but they expanded that to pastor, elder, overseer. And that we're going to cover that topic today. And then we've got some other questions that we're going to let you answer. So let's start with feminism in the local church. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. Easy softball question. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think, you know, it can fall in two ditches. I think one, also, I can't see you, Kristen. So interrupt me. One, I think that you have women who haven't felt like they've had a voice for a very long time. And so they are fighting just for a seat at the table. And then on the other hand, I do think feminism has crept into the church. I think a lot of feminism that we see in the church is because women are influenced by culture outside of the church. And I think nine times out of ten, it's because they don't have spiritual mothers in the church that they can turn to. Right. I think I think the family of God is essentially motherless. And so when you don't have like an embodied spiritual mother in the church that you can go to, I do think people are going to look elsewhere. And sometimes it's virtual. It's people that you don't even know that you see on the Internet, which I think I would love to talk like dive into this a little bit later, deeper. But I think that's where we get a lot of your you're enough and live your truth and things like that. It's because it makes them feel good. Right. And they don't have anyone in the church speaking into them, which I think is a larger issue that that we'll get into. What do you think, Kristen? Yeah, I one of the things that as we were thinking through this topic that it just kept coming up for me was how much of an influence that feminism and or postmodern postmodernism had on feminism. And it exchanged and, you know, the basis of postmodernism for those that it might be a new term to you. Essentially, you're exchanging cold, hard facts or truth for warm, fuzzy feelings. Right. What is your truth? What is it's more experiential versus established things. And so it took scripture and our view of scripture as our ultimate authority. It becomes, you know, again, with feminism, there's a lot of authority language and pushing back against authority, pushing back against submission. And so that has definitely crept into the church. And I think, like Shanna said, it's we see it in culture and we see that, you know, patriarchy is bad and we want to push against that. And everything is oppressive to women and just this narrative that we hear in culture. And then we start trying to take that and fit it into, OK, well, how do I see that in the church? Right. How am I seeing that oppression is happening to us as women in the church? And I think, like Shanna said, there are there are two ditches for sure. Like we don't want to say that women have zero seat at the table that they can't. Right. They just exist to produce babies and to cook food and to like that is their only thing that they can do, even within the church. But then also we've got to deal with the authority aspect and how God has established authority and submission. And those words that women just don't like to talk about because they've been influenced by culture and told that those things are bad. You know, before you take go, James, I do want to touch on what you said about the two ditches, because the other side of that is like I love that, you know, theology isn't just a boys club anymore. So it's like we don't have, you know, the men's meetings go into these deep theological issues. The women's meetings talk about, you know, good wife stuff and things like that. But what in this new journey that you ladies have been on, do you talk to me about how you love diving into the theology aspect of it that you weren't allowed to before? How has that changed in your life? Yeah, I think for me personally, it was through a series of really hard life circumstances where I was kind of like, why would the Lord give me this brain and like this hunger and desire for him? And then I have to just kind of just sit, just sit back in the pews. Right. And so it was like a lot of a lot of late night struggles for me. Kristen and I would say up to two to three a.m. FaceTiming, trying to talk through a lot of these things. And it was honestly, it was reading through scripture and getting to the fact that I am going to answer to God one day for how I know, love and trust him. How I, I will not answer to God for how my pastor does, but how I do. And it was like this, like this invitation to like know him, you know, in a deeper level. And so honestly, we moved from Louisiana to Texas and which is a whole thing in and of itself. And I, my church specifically, I think it's a really good job of inviting women and giving us a seat at the table to learn theology among our brothers. And I, my church, um, but I was determined. I was not going to this church. It was too big. I came from an independent Baptist church with tiny, like, you know, little, like, I don't know, less than a hundred people. Everyone knew everyone. And I was not going to this 3000 like people church. And the Lord has a sense of humor. Um, and it was the best thing that I've ever done. And so I think to answer your question, like, I am super passionate now, um, about fighting to give women a seat at the table to learn theology, um, with our brothers. Like, um, and I know Kristen, I'm not going to speak for you, but I know that's something that we both, um, just feel so incredibly passionate about is because we, like, we'll see this a little later. In our talk, in our, in our notes, but, um, Jesus invited women in his ministry. Um, and so why would that be any different for us today? I want to touch on one thing. Um, you had said that there hasn't been like a mother figure in the church, um, in the oppressive, where we came out of, where we were at, um, in, in, in life and in independent fundamental Baptist. Um, but even where I'm at now, uh, it's the Southern Baptist churches. No, no denying that, uh, 171 years old coming up. I mean, they've got a rich history. Uh, you know, the, the church has been a staple in the community, but when I first got here, we did a marriage conference and we did, uh, we had 10 or 12 couples that signed up and came. And it was a great time. I had a speaker come in and just taught and did like a mini one night, one day, a full day on a Saturday. Um, and I asked some of our older ladies, some of our widows, and then even some older couples, I said, Hey, I want you guys to come. Um, and this was my response. The older widows said, my husband's not here. It's going to be hard for me to come. And I understood that some of them had recently lost their husband. I said, I can understand by hearing some of these things, that's going to be a hurt. But then when I would ask like the couples that have been married 30, 40, 50 years, Hey, will you guys come? This is what they said to me. If our marriage hasn't lasted, if my marriage isn't working after 50 years, there's no conference that's going to help my marriage out. And I looked at him and I said, it's not that it's going to help your marriage out. It's going to help my marriage last 50 years. And it's almost like this, this attitude of in the church of I've got everything figured out. How am I going to come to some conference or some event that's going to help me better? And that's not what the church community is about. It's not about helping us necessarily. It's about helping the larger gathering. It's about helping that other generation that's coming up behind us. As you were speaking, Shana, my mind went to Titus 2, very common passage, but it says in the same way, older women are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not slaves, excessive drinking. They're to teach what is good, that they may encourage the younger women to love their husbands and to love their children, to be self-controlled, pure workers at home, kind and submission to their husband. So that God's word would not be slanderers. It goes on to talk about men and younger men as well. But it's this thought of, we have gotten away from the older women teaching the younger women. And when we can get back to this idea of the older men discipling the younger men, the older women discipling the younger women, using the life experience they have, this is where the church begins to thrive. What has happened in my mind is we haven't done that. And so the women, the younger women who are wanting to find something, they turn to a Beth Moore, some crazy liberal, because, well, they're investing in me as a younger woman. And then they get this ideology of a you do you and you're empowered to do whatever you want to do. And now all of a sudden we have this whole generation of younger women coming up that because the foundational faithful women in the church didn't invest in the younger women, we see this rise in a, in a, a very into the other, like you said, the other ditch as well. And some people would take that Titus two passage, right. And say, well, then women can only teach how to love their husbands, care for their children. Like those things are so homemaking things, how to homeschool your children, right? There was that side of it that would say, well, that's all the Bible says. And we would push back and I believe that, you know, scripture teaches that should be an outflowing of your theology, right? You can't love your husband well if your theology of God is messed up, right? Or you're going to do it trying in your own power and burn out and end up, you know, potentially divorced. Or how are you going to serve your children well, if you aren't studying your theology and having a good grasp and foundation. So both of those go hand in hand, right? Theology is not divorced from our everyday life and how that plays out. We live it out. Yeah, I would just like piggyback off of what both of you said. This is something I've been really studying a lot lately. And so I've come across, I'm not going to say who it is. Maybe, maybe I will in a little bit. We'll see. But there's three quotes that have been put out by self-professed Christian women. Okay. They've put out these books. And so if we're not having like spiritual mothers in the church, you're going to have women who are going to these type of women. I'll just say it. Jen Hatton, Rachel Hollis. I'll just say it. You're talking about Jen Wilkins, right? No, I'm not. No. No, listeners. I did not say that. But they, so like, listen to these three quotes. One says, I am exactly enough how I am. Two, you deserve goodness. And three, I studied the gospel and finally grasped the divine knowledge that I am loved and worthy exactly as I am. And man, like that is wildly different from scripture, right? Like Genesis says that the intentions of man's heart are evil from youth. Jeremiah says that our hearts are desperately sick and deceitful. And Romans says that there is no right. Like there is no one righteous, right? If you're going to King James. No, not one. And I love Ephesians too. How it says like you were dead in your trespasses and sin in which you once walked. Like following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of our body. And we were by nature, children of wrath, like culture. And women are hearing this. They keep saying, I'm enough. I mean, the Bible says, man, no, I'm a child of wrath, right? And the good news of the gospel is that while we were sinners, Christ died for us. And so the point is like Jesus is enough. And it's recognizing who we are in Christ. That's so important because in a ever changing culture, the word of God does not reinvent itself and it doesn't change. And we need spiritual mothers to disciple and to pour in to women, to this next generation of women. Or we're going to see, we're going to see more of this. Yeah. Yeah. While you were saying that and saying those quotes that you had mentioned, my mind immediately went to what Satan tempted Eve with in the garden. Listen, as I read it, it's Genesis 3, of course. The serpent said to Eve, did God really say you can't eat from the garden? He questioned scripture. And then the woman made her statement. And then he said, no, you will not die. In fact, God knows that when you eat this, your eyes will be open and you'll be like God, knowing good and evil. And the woman hearing these things saw the tree was good and delightful to look at and desired to obtain wisdom. So she took an eight. I think oftentimes that's the draw of all of us is it's not just women. We're not singling out women specifically, but it's, hey, did that person really say that you shouldn't touch that? Did that person really say that you shouldn't go to that location? You know, they're really just holding something back from you. You know, go in and experience life. Go and figure out what is good. Go and experience what is going to make you happy. And all of a sudden we get to the end of it. And it's like the devil. Michael Knowles said it like this. He was quoting, I think it was, uh, um, ladies or someone. He said the devil on one side is saying, go and do this. There's no consequences whatsoever. And once you go and do it, the same devil says, ha, I've got you. No one's going to love you now. And it's like, oh man, what did I just do? Like, I feel guilty. Yeah. You better feel guilty because now look at what no one's going to love you now. And it's, it's this struggle that we deal with in our life on a daily basis of good, evil, right, wrong. Um, and this constant struggle. Mm-hmm. I think that we have gone back to the two ditches again. I think we've gone from fighting for a seat at the table to sometimes imitating Eve by eating the apple, you know? And so I think there's wisdom and discernment, but you have to have someone speaking into you. Right. And so, and that's a culture, that's a church culture thing. And I think a lot of that is by not giving women, uh, leadership abilities in the church. Right. Like, um, I know we're, we're going to kind of get in that too a little bit, but, um, I think by when we invite women to have a seat at the table, we're opening up all kinds of possibilities for brotherly, sisterly, motherly, fatherly modeling in the church, which is, um, really significant and healthy. And that's how the church is going to thrive. Yeah. I think, um, one of the things that as you all were talking through that, that I was thinking is that, um, cultural feminism, we're going to call that right outside of the church. Yeah. Encourages women to really grab all they can and measure their worth by how much they can control their own autonomy, right? Their own, like I control myself. Um, but in contrast, as Christians, we're called to depend on God and not ourselves, right? That's not where our autonomy, it should not be an autonomy of, I can control myself. I can, I am exactly enough. I am, you know, all of this, I, I, um, but true freedom is found in Christ. And so I think again, when feminism in the church is evolving into a lot of different manifestations and a lot of it is bucking that submission, bucking that authority. It's that, you know, what happened in the garden, right? That when the curse came down against Eve, it was that you will want to take the position of your husband, right? You are going to want that authority. That is going to be your struggle. And we see it playing out and then we're all just like, wait, what, how, how is this? Well, we were told from the beginning that this is how it was going to play out, that this was going to be a significant struggle for women. And it's a struggle for both Shanna and I as well, right? Like we're always on guard on it. So my husband is not invited to this conversation for a reason. Love it. Neither of ours. I think, I think often for those who come out of the independent fundamental Baptist movement and other oppressive movements, and I've seen it in all of my years of 13 years been in ministry, I've been somewhat of a balanced guy. Most guys have, have told me, you know, even in college, even when there was a lot of legalism, like you just didn't buy into everything. But I think oftentimes, and you'll see this, if you look at any Joe Schmo that comes out of that is they see the oppression of the IFB and then the pendulum swings to the whole, if they did this and this was what they said is right. And I see that it's wrong. I've got to swing that pendulum all the way to the other side and do everything opposite. And I think this is what happens in what we call feminism, the rides of cultural feminism is they said, well, women were oppressed. Women were only homemakers. Women were only these things. They had no voice. They had no say. And so if that was right, and I know it's wrong now, then the only logical thing is it's got to be the total opposite of that. And the pendulum swings from law to grace, and I'm going to do whatever I want. And there's no marrying of the middle of, okay, maybe there was some truth. Maybe there was some things. Maybe there was a little over-oppression. But how can we bring this into a balanced view of scripture? And how can scripture give me the grace and truth that I need to marry both of these together? Right. Right. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Exactly. And it's over-correcting. And so we definitely need to beware of that. And we're doing it on a basis of fallen men, right? Making, you know, I'm not going to say make mistakes, but like they twist in the scriptures to serve their own purpose, right? And so then we say, oh, well, because they did that, and I was a part of this movement or whatever it is, they twisted that scripture. Like you said, well, then it must be the complete opposite rather than looking and saying, okay, what is scripture actually saying in this? Some of it is going to be some of those difficult, you know, things that we don't like. I've said it many times now, submission, authority. I think that's just a sticking point for women, especially women in the church. But then how does that play out? It isn't, you know, your husband's or your pastor's lording that over you. That's equally as sinful if you're in that situation, right? Your husband or your pastor lording that power and authority over you in an unloving way is equally as sinful as you trying to buck against that submission and authority. But that doesn't mean that what the prescription that God has given in scripture is wrong. It's just being used in a wrong fashion. Yeah. And I think oftentimes we attribute sinful men, sinful behavior to God, right? Like we throw that on him. And I think we see that a lot as people who are coming out of these oppressive movements. It's their view of God is wrong. And so that's when we started growing grace. Our very first season was the attributes of God, because you have to have the right view of God before you have a right view of anything else. And I think honestly, Kristen, we've done some really, we've had some really great guests and we've done some really great episodes, but that's still my favorite. That's still my favorite. It's going back to God's character. Like this is who he is in scripture. And I think we have to start there. Absolutely. Yeah. Tangent. No, those are, those are great episodes. I thoroughly enjoyed all of that that y'all did. And if you haven't listened to it, go to their show and listen to, we have a dog somewhere. Yeah, it's my dog. I thought maybe I had a dog. All right. Let's jump through. And this may not be a long talk, but Baptist Faith and Message 2000 was updated two years ago at the annual meeting. Kristen, I think you're Southern Baptist Church. I'm not sure if you are or not. Yes. Okay. So we're all Southern Baptist churches. And since 2000, the Baptist Faith and Message serves as a guide to sort of help us as churches that are of like faith and practice. Some didn't believe that the constitution of change was actually necessary. That this document actually already outlined that women were not to serve in these roles. And so what they decided was, someone made a motion to amend it. And the motion was that the New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is autonomous local gatherings of baptized believers associated with a covenant of faith. They exercise their rights and gifts and privileges by them. They're all autonomous. Each congregation operates under the worship of Christ. And then the second clause was just two scriptural offices are that pastors and deacons is how it's stated. And we added pastors, elders, and overseers and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor, elder, and overseer is limited to men as qualified by scripture. The New Testament speaks also of the church as the body of Christ, which include all redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, tongue, and people in every nation. And so that was passed. The Baptist Faith and Message has been updated to add the elder overseer as qualified and limited to men qualified by scripture. And so the thoughts are, is some were upset at this and some were, you know, we're leaving the convention. We can't be a part of this. It's an oppressive movement. Some are like, yeah, this is a good thing. We need to have this. We need to be able to, you know, say, hey, this is what we believe as Southern Baptists. And so what do you think? Does this help or does this hurt? What are y'all's thoughts on this amendment to the Baptist Faith and Message? Yeah. You want to go, Kristen, or do you want me to go? I can't see you. Sure, I can. We'll probably both talk on this topic. I think it helped from what I could gather. Again, I wasn't because I let my pastors kind of take care of all of that. I wasn't super. Being a good submissive woman. It makes sense. Exactly. What's even funnier is that my pastor is my brother. I go to my brother's church. So from what I understand, one of the things that kind of started bubbling this up was the belief that women could have the title of pastor, but not the office of like elder overseer and that kind of stuff. They were trying to divorce the two, right? So then you could have a children's pastor or a women's pastor and, oh, they don't have, you know, it's just a title, right? That's what they were going for is it's just a title. And so being able to connect those as like, no, a pastor is an elder is an overseer, right? Those are connected. It helped be able to clear up, I think, a line that was trying to be muddied very quick. And I think that it was a lot of maybe it was reactionary, but also a bit of a foresight of if we don't get a handle on this now, we're going to go even farther down because the more you start to muddy a line, the less you can see that line. And then now that line starts getting drawn in all different places. Yeah, I think, you know, I would say I'm a complementarian, but I do think there are different, lots of people can say they're complementarian, but they don't mean the same thing, right? There's like various facets of that. And so you can go to one church and they're going to like, hey, like I was talking to Jen Wilkin, for example, and she was like, you know, I can go to one church and they're like, hey, I want you to preach this week, like the whole weekend services. Which she will not do. And then she can go to another church and they're like, you like women are not even going to give the announcements here. And both churches would say that they're complementarian. But that's wildly different in practice, right? And so I think like, I mean, I use the ESV, but in First Timothy three, they use the term overseer. Um, I think it's helpful to give, um, clear definition of, hey, pastor, elder overseer is reserved for men. Um, we can talk about deacons, um, if we want to, but, um, I, I was not offended and I did not find it oppressive personally. Yeah. Well, go ahead, Brett. I was like, you know, if you have like, uh, a woman doing, she's the children's director, she's over the children's ministries. And then we say, okay, what we're going to do is we're just going to give her the title pastor. Uh, she's going to do the same thing that she's always done. Uh, nothing's going to change. Uh, we're just going to give her this title. We're going to change the name, but nothing she does is going to be any different than what she did before. And though some of the churches that did that were like, okay, we don't see anything wrong with that. But then when you come back to that, that name pastor, I look at it as, as a rank, you're bestowing a rank on someone that the Bible defines for us who qualifies to hold that, that title. Now, the thing about my, my opinion on this change is, you know, I think that it did have sufficient language, but I'm all for, as you said, uh, making sure the waters don't get muddied. Uh, you know, I'm, I'm not ashamed. I'm just like you guys. I'm not ashamed of the language of the Bible. You know, I'm, I'm not ashamed that the Bible uses this type of language. I don't think there's anything wrong with clearly, uh, defining something. I mean, we've seen these other, uh, these other denominations like just completely destroyed the language of the Bible and know those words, you know, I know that word meant what it meant to for 2000 years, but today in our culture, that word doesn't mean that anymore. And so we see these other denominations throw in the language of the Bible away and just getting real specific. I don't, I agree with y'all. I don't think that it's, it's, it's hurtful. I think it can only be helpful. Was it necessary? That's debatable. But then again, I'm not ashamed of the language of the Bible. So, yeah. Well, and you know, Mueller, who was the architect, one of the architects of the Baptist faith master 2000, when this amendment came up, he was against it in 2023. He thought that it was sufficient enough. It was already said it was limited to men as qualified by scripture. We don't need to add elder overseer to it at all. Well, it passed. And then the next year he changed his stance. He said, you know, men, I've seen the convention. I've seen what happened to the United Methodists. I've seen what's going on in the world. And I think we need to go even farther. We need to, we need to clearly put our flag in the ground and say, this is where we're at. And I think that's a good thing to do at times. Especially like Brett said, with the way language changes, words mean things. And what the problem was is people were trying to separate and divorce the office from the function. And they were trying to say, well, they're, they have the function, but they don't necessarily hold the office and you can't divorce the two, the office and the function, the same thing. And so as we continue on, I didn't think that was gonna be a long discussion anyways. We wrote down just a couple of questions, Brett. I want to specifically get to A and D on our, on our questions. If we have time, we'll hit B and C. Um, but I'll ask the first one and you can ask the second one and see where time is at. Um, the first question that we had written down is, do you believe, because there is this stance of, uh, women teaching and women doing things, do you believe a woman can teach a man under any circumstances? Are there biblical grounds for a woman to get up and to teach an audience and men be in there? Um, what is your thought on that? Who wants to throw the dart first? I'm like, oh, Kristen. I'm sitting here waiting for you, Santa. I'm like running through my Rolodex. Oh, of course she is. Um, yeah. So I'll just tell you my stance on this. Um, I think that mixed gender teaching environments should always be overseen by elders. Um, I think that elders should seek out and equip and utilize gifted, uh, people to help lead and teach, um, whatever ministries are in your church. Um, I, I know the way we do it at our church and I found that very helpful is like a gender specific teaching environments will be taught by the same gender. So men Bible studies will be taught by a man, the women's Bible studies will be taught by a woman. And anytime that there is mixed gender environments, um, it's always overseen by an elder because I mean, I go to an elder led church and, um, I have found that to be very helpful. I don't know. You know, we have what we call it our church to training program, which if you listen to growing grace, I talk about it a lot. Um, and Jen Wilkin has, um, been a guest lecturer a couple of times in there. And those are some of my husband's favorite that he sat under and he, um, like we still talk about them and, but it was overseen. It was overseen. It was overled by, and by, um, an elder. And so that's kind of where I, I land is the authority that the church has, uh, pastor, elder. Are they, um, overseeing it? And so, I don't know. I think there's a lot of nuance there. Um, I personally don't have a problem with it because I think we do theology together, but I know some people will, and I think there's theological triage that can happen, um, there as well. Kristen, what do you think? Yeah, I, I pretty much fall in line with that. I would, um, in what you were saying as, no. Tell us where you don't. Pretty much. She's like, where do you not? Well, because I just think it plays out differently in a church like The Village that has something like the training program that gives maybe some of these gifted women the opportunity to be able to speak not only to women, but to men. But in smaller churches, you're not going to have probably those opportunities necessarily. So, that's always what I'm asking. Like, when we talk about this, well, what are we talking about it practically? Like, what, are you wanting, you know, a woman to get up and preach on a Sunday morning? Yeah, probably not. Like, no. Right. Right. Um. I'll give you a practical scenario. So, my former church. Perfect. Run about 200, 210, 220 on a really good day. Um. They had, um, a pastor's wife. Or not a pastor, a pastor's daughter. She was a great theologian. Probably one of the best teachers in the church, period. Um. And one of the guys had gotten sick. And they asked her to help teach the class years and years ago before I ever got there. Well, the class enjoyed her teaching. And so, when he got better, they kept her as teaching. And they sort of alternated back and forth teaching the class. Um. And we had some men in the church that never attended that class anymore. But on the weeks that she would teach. Because she got up and she was teaching the scripture. The church okayed it. The pastors okayed it. The deacons okayed it. There was no problem with it. Um. There were deacons in that class. And she taught. And yet men had got upset because a woman was teaching over them. And they took the verse out of 1 Corinthians. Permit not a woman to teach over a man or to speak over a man. And they took that verse and said that she doesn't have the right to speak. And so, they didn't go on the weeks that she taught. And so, that would be the practical circumstance that you could say okay. This is a situation. Is it right? Is it wrong? Where do you land on that situation? Is it right? I think you know. I don't see necessarily a problem with that. Um. Is it wise? I don't know. That would be the question right. It might not necessarily be a. You know. Right or wrong necessarily. But is it wise? Like. And you can come from it from both sides. Right. Giving her the opportunity to continue to develop her teaching. And to teach. And it sounds like a really great teacher. And a really great theologian. Solid theologian. Right. That the. You know. Was still overseen. Assuming they were also still overseeing as well. When the man was teaching. Right. That we didn't have a couple double standards of like. Oh we need to make sure the woman's on track. Oh but he's a man. It doesn't matter. Like what he says. He's fine. Right. Um. But then also there's that aspect of. Is it a stumbling block for people? Why. Right. So there. There are some people. Clearly that. You know. Didn't attend anymore. On those Sundays. So. Which one is wiser. To. Alienate some of these people. That just will not. Um. Or maybe figure out. Develop other ways. For. That woman. To be able to teach. In some form or capacity. Maybe just not in this. Specific. Um. Instance. Right. Um. Thankfully I'm not a pastor. And I can't be a pastor. So I don't have to make those decisions. Right. Right. I just. I'm like. Yes. What Kristen said. But also. Like what a beautiful opportunity. For. The church. To see what it looks like. For brothers and sisters. To do theology together. Like if they both are. Alternating. And they're both teaching. Um. You're getting. Both voices. And I think. I think that's beautiful. Listeners. Don't come at me. But. Oh. I do too. Here I stand. Here I stand. That's right. Well. And it's. It's a tough thing. Because I mean. You would. I've talked to people. Even in. In my small little town. Where I live at. I mean. It. We have like. 4,000 people in our town. It's really. Really small. Um. And I. My kids play rec ball. So I'm constantly talking to people. They know I'm a pastor. You know. We. We talk. And I was talking to a lady. And she said. Um. She was in the church. And she was helping. And she was volunteering. Her husband was a police officer. They hadn't joined. It wasn't independent. On the bone baptist. Um. She did not know. All of the. The background of it. She was just telling me. She said. My husband's a police officer. So he's there over the week. And we were started to go in. And you know. I'm teaching. And I'm helping with the youth. And I'm doing all these things. And then someone found out. That I had been divorced. And I was. Um. Uh. We. We were remarried. And all these kids. Were not all of his kids. And. Uh. You know. But they were okay with all that. Before they found out about it. Once they found out about it. They pulled me aside. And said. From now on. You were only allowed to be in the nursery. You can't teach anyone else. Because. You have been in wrong. You've been in sin. And you've done these things. And so. We want you to help in the nursery. But that's the only place you can help out in. And she was like. I don't even. Like is this. Like she's confused. Because. She said. I love the church. I think it's great. But all of a sudden. They find out one wrong thing about me. They were okay with it. One minute. And now they're not. But. And so it was a fun little conversation. That we had. And. They no longer go to that church. Thank the Lord. They left. Because of some crazy. Things that were going on. But. She. She in that moment. Was like. Where's the double standard at? Why is it okay in one moment? Yeah. They wouldn't let me teach in adult class. But teenagers. And young people. And young girls. Like if we have a split class. I'll talk to them. Like. Those are great things. But then all of a sudden. One bad thing happens. Or they find out about something. And they're like. Oh. Nope. You can't do it anymore. So. I think that's the. That's the double standard. That happens oftentimes. In churches. Especially smaller churches. But. But. I guess it can happen. I've never been a part of a 3,000 member church. So. I don't know. You know. Not all of us are big time. You know. Big celebrity pastors. Like Shana. He's. Co-writing a book with Jen. Or something. I don't know. No. No. You heard it here first. Yeah. No. This is how rumors get started. Yeah. No. Shana is not. Well. Let's go into. Our next question. And maybe. Maybe this question is already asked and answered. And maybe it. It. It. It piggybacks off of. The last question that we had. But the question we have in our notes is. Do you believe that women can be preachers? And. Maybe think about it in the context of. Not a pastor. Okay. Can a woman be just be a traveling preacher. And not necessarily. A pastor of a church. Or in a local church for that matter. The question is simply. Do you believe women can be preachers? I love. I'm like. I have thoughts on this first. But like. What do. Like. Can we define. And I would love to hear maybe y'all as well. The difference in a teacher and a preacher. Like. If you're traveling. And you're getting up speaking. Like. What is the difference between a teacher and a preacher? This is me thinking out loud. Like. Truly. Because. For me. I've. I've listened to. Whether it's like. You'll never hear Jen Wilkins say. She went and preached somewhere. That's not the language that she uses. But if you listen to like. Jackie Hill Perry. Like. She's like. I preached this weekend. Here. You know what I mean? And so I'm like. I'm curious. Like. What's the depth. Like. What. Kristen. Do you. What do you think? Is there a definite. Like a. How do you define? I've always heard. The difference is. The authority aspect of it. Right. Teaching. And. It still hasn't been super clear on that. But. Preaching. Denotes some type of authority. In what you're delivering. Versus teaching. Tends to not be. Not. Not. Have as much. On that authority aspect. But. That's how I've heard it. Explained. I. Don't know if that's. I get. I get that aspect. But I'm. I also see holes in it. So. I don't know. James and Brett. Maybe. Yeah. I have. You all have. I do want to. I do want to come back to this. Within regards to the local church. Because I have thoughts on that. But I would like. Brothers. What do you think? Let's do theology together. What do you. What are the difference? Brett. You have authority. I'm going to go first. You go first. I figured you'd say that. All right. So I've been reading through the book of Acts. Because I'm. I'm planning to preach through the book of Acts. Next year. Peter gets up. And he preached. The word. The. The first sermon. That we get in Acts. And he preaches. And it only says that the disciples were with him preaching. I think that is an example of public speaking in a way that is proclaiming the gospel in a organized forum. That is for the purpose of preaching and proclaiming the gospel. Not that women can't do that one on one. But it was an example of. Peter getting up and proclaiming the word of God. And going through the Old Testament. Going through the New Testament. Going up to Jesus and leading that up. You fast forward to Acts 13. 14. Where Paul begins to. The Bible doesn't say he preached. It said he went and he taught. At the synagogue. And he was teaching. There at the. In Mars Hill. To the unknown God. He wasn't a. Preaching in that sense. Even though you can take the aspect of preaching and say. Oh yeah. He was preaching. Says he got up and he taught them. Their ways. He said I'm going to. Teach you about someone. The unknown God. And so the aspect was. One is. Preaching in the sense of. And I. I know there's semantics in this. But. But preaching for the proclamation of the gospel. Versus teaching to expound to. To give someone this wisdom. And so. We are all called to be teachers. And to be proclaimers of the gospel. But this. Preaching aspect. Is a. Different. Offices. If one claims. Or. Has the. The gifting to be a pastor. Or a preacher. Or be an overseer. It is the. The. It's more than just preaching on Sunday. And I know. Oftentimes. We only work one day a week. Right. Sunday and Wednesday. Sunday. If you don't have Wednesday night. You're one day a week. So I think it goes a little deeper than that. Because. It is the shepherding of. Of one soul. It is the. The weight. Of. Yeah. I'm going to get up and preach. I'm going to preach what the church needs. But it's. Also carrying that weight. Of what's going on. All throughout the week. Is what a preacher. And a pastor is. So I don't know. I probably. Butchered that. But Brett. What's. What's your thoughts on that. Or. Or how wrong was I? I agree with you. I mean. Just for me. For me. Just personally. I've got. Two modes. That I go into. When I speak. At my church. And it's. It's preaching. And it's teaching. Jackals. Oh. Oh. Some person. Teaching on. Preaching. But. You know. So when I'm teaching. I open up the floor. I. I want to. I'm the kind of teacher. That I want. People to respond. I'm going to write down questions. That I'm going to ask. I want feedback. When I teach. And. But. You know. When I preach. You know. I kind of. I think it's. The authority. I think you have an authority. When it comes to. Proclaiming the gospel. In that way. People don't speak. Speak back. They're just. Listen to me. Talk. And. Things like that. So I know. That's not really. You know. Dive in biblically. That's just practically. From my own experience. But I do think. That preaching. Connotates. A. A. An authority. You come at it. From. You know. The aspect. Of being. A pastor. In. In some regard. Whether it's. A lead pastor. Or. You know. Some other pastor. Elder. Overseer. I don't. Personally. Think you can. Divorce the two. I think. Even. Outside the church. When you're preaching. You come at it. From the authority. Of being an elder. Pastor. Overseer. Personally. That's my personal. Opinion on it. So. Yeah. I think. My. My strong. My strong. Opinion on this. Is dealt. More. I think. With the local church. And. I think. When we're talking. About this. We talk. We talk. So much. About like. The differences. Right. Like. Roles. Really. But. I think. It's really helpful. To start. Like. Where scripture does. And so. Like. We see. In. The very. Like. Opening pages. Like. In Genesis 2. Adam. Is like. Shown. This parade. Of animals. That go in front of him. Right. Each. Has been created. According to its kind. And he looks at them. And every time. An animal goes by. He's like. I think. Like. He's naming them. He's like. Basically. Categorizing them. He's like. This one's not like me. This one's not like me. And he gets to Eve. Right. And when Eve is created. He sings like. This hymn of praise. Like. This sameness. Bone of my bone. Flesh of my flesh. And so. I think. If we don't start. With what we share. Like. Sameness. I think. That. We have a tendency. To. Focus on. Difference. The most. And I think. When you focus on difference. You're always going to push people away. You're always going to isolate people. And so. I think. From the opening pages of scripture. We find that God created. Two. Complimentary sexes. For our good. And his glory. And both are created. In God's image. Men and women. And I think. We share more in common. As divine image bearers. Than differences. I think. We were created. We were created. To co-rule. And co-labor. Like shoulder to shoulder. Right. Like in battle. But we're also like. Co-implicated. In the fall. Like. One is not more guilty. Than the other. Together. Humanity. Rebelled against God. And so. I think. Although men and women. Are portrayed. As equals. Throughout scripture. I think. The bible. Clearly. Defines. The office of elder. Pastor. Overseer. If we want to say that. Specifically. For qualified men. Not for all men. For qualified men. And I think. That's. That's really helpful. And so. That's kind of. Where I land. In regards. To. Specifically. The local church. You should. Pitch that thought. To Matt Chandler. Maybe he could do a message. Called the Imago Dei. And. I think. That'd be a good. Good sermon topic. For him to do. One day. I think. I think. As much as. You know. And I. Wholeheartedly. Agree. With what. Shanna. Had said. About. Sameness. It is. Also. Important. Though. To. Recognize. That. There has. Been. Established. Some. Type. Of. Headship. Or. Not. Some. Type. But. Headship. Within. Even. The. Creation. Account. Right. Like. You said. The. Adam. Was. Made. First. He. Was. Tasked. With. Naming. The. Animals. He. Names. Eve. He's. Given. Instructions. About. The. Tree. Of. The. Knowledge. Of. Good. And. Evil. And. But. It's. Him. That's. Called. When. Both. Him. And. Eve. Sinned. Right. So. He. Was. Called. It. Wasn't. Adam. Annie. Where. Are. You. It. Was. God. Called. Out. To. Adam. And. Said. Where. Are. You. So. There. Is. This. Sense. Of. Headships. Still. That. They. Are. That. God. Established. And. I. Think. That. Translates. Not. Only. Within. The. Home. But. Also. Within. The. Church. Yeah. Shannon. And. Kristen. I don't know. I'm. Not. Familiar. With. Your. Church. So. You. May. Have. Elders. And. You. May. Not. And. If. You. You. Can. Just. As. Well. I. Just. Want. To. Ask. As. Elders. In. Your. Church. Does. That. Constitute. The. Village. Church. To. Have. Female. Deacons. Do you. Guess. Have. Female. Deacons. We. Do. Yeah. Kristen. I don't know. About. Your. Church. And. Your. Brother. The way. Does. It. No. Yeah. We're. Just. We're. A. Small. Church. Plant. We're. About. Right. Like. We. Grew up. With. Deacons. Being. Essentially. Elders. Just. With. The. Deacon. But. They. Weren't. The. Serving. Aspect. Of. What. Deacons. Is. Set. Out. In. Scripture. And. So. I. Think. If. You're. Within. A. Church. That. Functions. That. Way. Then. No. Women. Shouldn't. Be. Deacons. If. They're. Just. Elders. Not. With. The. Elder. Name. But. If. You. Do. Have. The. Elders. Or. Plurality. Of. Pastors. And. Your. Deacons. Are. Expected. To. Be. The. Serving. Arm. Of. It. And. Kind. Of. That. Service. Aspect. To. The. Rest. Of. The. Church. Coming. Alongside. The. Pastors. That. Maybe. You know. You're. At. A. You. Just. You. Can't. Be. That. To. Everyone. Right. You. Can't. Have. That. Service. Aspect. To. Everyone. Then. I. Don't. See. A. Problem. With. Women. Being. Able. To. Serve. In. That. Function. And. Even. Better. If. It's. A. Husband. And. Wife. Team. Right. That. Can. Serve. Together. As. Deacons. And. Being. Able. Serve. I. Know. At. The. Church. That. I. Went. To. Before. They. Didn't. Quite. Call. Them. Deacons. They. Had. Different. Names. For. Them. Because. They. Were. I. Think. Moving. Them. Closer. To. That. Portion. But. It. Allowed. Then. There. Was. A. Pretty. Large. Population. Of. Single. Women. That. Had. They. Not. Had. Women. In. Those. Positions. Those. Single. Women. Would. Have. Been. Completely. Left. Out. In. That. Service. Aspect. Because. Men. Didn't. Feel. Comfortable. Texting. A. You know. 35 year old. Single. Woman. On. Their. Own. Without. Their. Wife. And so. I. Think. When. You. Don't. Have. Those. Positions. For. Women. You. Definitely. Do. A. Disservice. To. Them. But. Also. To. Seen. As. Leadership. Roles. And not. Servant. Roles. I. Love. Looking. At. The. New. Testament. And. Paul's. Words. That. He. Uses. Like. You know. He. Tells. Titus. Like. In. Titus. He's. Like. You know. He. Says. To. Teach. The. Older. Women. Biblical. Knowledge. To. Younger. Women. And. That's. Like. A. Good. And. Beautiful. And. Noble. Task. And. You have. Phoebe. Right. Like. A. Patron. Deacon. Of. The. Church. Like. And. Even. Like. Delivered. Um. Paul's. Epistles. To. The. Romans. And. You have. Um. I love. I. Butcher. This. Every. Time. I. Study it. But. It's. Like. Euodia. And. Sententi. Is. That. What. It is. Paul. Says. Say that again. Are you laughing at me? Sententi. Sententi. There you go. Um. I was close. Um. Paul. Said. You know. In Philippians. That. He. They labored. Side by side. With him. And. Priscilla. Is. Described. As. Explaining. The way. Of God. More accurately. To. Apollos. And. So. Like. You see. In the. Early. Church. The role. That women. Played. And. How valuable. That they. Were. And. That ministry. In the early. Church. Was never. Just confined. To men. And. Like. You think. As you're reading. The New Testament. The greetings. That you see. All the time. In the New Testament. And. In other passages. It just shows. How women. Were engaged. In ministries. And. Like. For the village. Specifically. We have. In our ministries. You'll never have. Just women. Deacons. You'll. You'll have both. You'll have. Women. And you'll have. Men. Or. Like. A woman. And a man. A deacon. For the very reasons. Kristen said. And I also think. Like. Women. When we're talking about. Like. Servant. Like. We. I think. It's innate in us. I think. It's like. Naturally. We see the most vulnerable. People. Like. I think. That's the way. The Lord made us. And I think. When you don't have. Those voices. You don't have women. In some of these spaces. The most vulnerable. Gets looked over. I honestly think that. And so. I think. It's really helpful. That. Men and women. Laboring alongside each other. Is really helpful. For the church. Kristen. I cannot. Think of the last time. I heard it explained. That well. You did an amazing job. Explaining the difference. Between the deacons. And elders. Especially in. Our Southern Baptist churches. Where we do have deacons. That function. Double function. As elders. In that regard. And you know. And as far as my deacons. I'll put them to. The test on that. You know. If you're going to be. Function as a deacon. And an elder. You better be ready to teach. I'll ask them all. You know. To teach. And fill in for me. Because if they're going to. Have both the functions. If they're going to have. Both the responsibilities. They have to. Serve the function. And so. Kristen. That was just a great. Great explanation. And. I'm going to steal that. I was going to say. I'd probably credit that. To my other brother. So I have two older brothers. Both of which are pastors. One of them is a pastor. In Kansas. And I would probably credit that. Because we've had those discussions about it. And I've seen how he's. Done that within his church. And one of the things that I love. And is encouraging to me. Is. You know. He'll ask people to preach. When he's still there. Right. Like. He'll have them go. It's not just when the pastor is gone. And so then that way. He is able to. You know. Give feedback. And help to be able to mentor them along. And so. That's just. Function of. Me and my brother. Going back and forth. And me. Pushing on him. And being like. Well. But why? And explain this to me. So. Yeah. Love it. I think it's great. And I appreciate you guys coming on. It has been a great. Great episode today. And look forward to seeing Brett tomorrow. I guess you guys won't be there again. A bunch of losers. Can't come. And. Twisting that knife. We're trying. We're trying. And we're going to have a great time. And we hope to see everyone. All of our listeners. Tomorrow as well. And it's going to be a great meetup. It's going to be a great conference. That we get to be a part of. Hearing Nathan. I won't be able to hear JC. But Dudley as well. Has been able to speak. It's going to be a fantastic time. Thank you ladies. For coming on. And we got to do this more. We got to get together. And talk. And have these conversations. I've always enjoyed our conversations. Always enjoy being able to. Listen to you guys. You guys give great content. And thankful for you guys as well. Just being able to be a voice. In a difficult situation. And so I appreciate all that. Brett. Any closing thoughts. Or words from you ladies. No. I've just. I've just enjoyed the conversation. And thank you all so much. For coming on. And being with us for a few minutes. And talking through this subject. I know sometimes it can be a hard. And uncomfortable subject. But I appreciate y'all. Taking the time to be with us today. Thanks for having us. But it was fun. Absolutely. Well. Without further ado. To God. Not the pastor. Be the glory. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning. That has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening. To the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content. Do us a favor. By liking. Subscribing. Or sharing our podcast. Or whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time. For the For Freedom Podcast. . Thank you.

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