38. Spiritual Identity Disruption with Rebekah Drumsta Part 2

And here we go. And here we go. John, how are you doing today? How's your week been? We've been crazy busy on my end. I had a wedding this past weekend. And when that comes, you've got rehearsal and you've got the wedding and you've got late nights. And so it's been fun. We've got baseball season up and roaring for my kids. And we've been crazy busy with schedules. And I've been doing some stuff, counseling things. So it's been fun. It's been interesting. How's your life been doing, John? Same, same. Just had a great Sunday. And then back to work. And my wife's been working on these flower beds. Not really flower beds, like raised garden beds. And she's been getting that done. And so the kids have been enjoying that. And then I was able to burn a pile of limbs last night. And I just love burning things. I don't know why. But just watching something just like being consumed in a fire is just really cool to me. But just, you know, having a good time doing some counseling as well. And, yeah, it's been really busy. That's great. Yeah, I'm a pyromaniac. My kid is too. And I have to watch him every once in a while. He'll get a hold of a lighter and start catching things on fire. So I don't blame him. I did the same thing as a kid. It's just as a parent, I'm like, why are you doing this? But. Yeah, I know. I know. All right, let's go into our This Week Roundup. All right, a couple things happening this week. James, in the world of entertainment and in the world of the RFP Network, we're going to talk about today. The first thing was I mentioned last week that the Oscars were going on. And that happened this past Sunday evening. And a lot of criticism happened with the Oscars. But my prediction on who I thought would win Best Picture, won Best Picture, Nomadland. And I have watched it. Didn't really get it. But that's done. That's out of the way. And more importantly, I think most people were more excited about the finale of The Falcon and The Winter Soldier. Did you see that, James? I did. It was fantastic. Me and my wife have been watching them together. She gets on to me because I like to watch things ahead of her. But really, she just falls asleep while we're watching them. And so I just continue watching. But it ended fantastic. It was really good. And then the very ending closing when they said Captain America and Winter Soldier and how they're replacing Captain America with Falcon. I think it's great. It was good to see the Wakandas come in and make the new suit. We didn't really get to see that suit in action against stuff. I'm wondering if the entire suit is vibramium. If it's going to be a better suit. I don't know. It's interesting to see where they're going to go. They're already talking about putting a season two in place. And we're ramping up for some great Marvel movies that are going to be released here in just a couple of weeks. Yeah. Captain America is my favorite Marvel character. And to be honest with you, I'm not a fan of the whole passing the mantle. Not just with Captain America, but with any of the people, whether it's Batman or whoever. To me, Steve Rogers is Captain America. I know they did it in the comics. Didn't care for it. I like the idea of Falcon being Falcon. Bucky being Bucky. Nobody having to be Captain America. But let me say this. Still not crazy about the idea. But the way that they did it, I thought was really cool. And the ending, the finale, did not disappoint. The costume was awesome. I think they stepped his action level up. Like what he's capable of doing in an action scene. It was really impressive. And just, you know, I know a lot of people were upset about the politics involved. I liked the message. I thought the message was a very good tone. And not, you know, overly heavy. I thought it was really good. So, yeah. Looking forward to the next things coming out. And then the other thing. Go ahead. About that, John. Was Bucky made this statement a couple of times. He said, without the shield, I am nothing. He said, everything I have was I wrapped up in that shield. He said, and he was relating everything about his life with who Captain America was. And I, you know, me as a pastor, I began to, and I do a lot of identity studies and I help our teenagers out. But I began thinking how many times do we wrap ourselves up into one single object that defines us. And if that object's taken away, we are no longer who we thought we were. Whether that be a church, a family, an organization. And that was what it was showing. It was saying that he could not exist because everything that was good in his life was related to that shield. And it really, I don't know, the theological side of me really took a hold of that pretty well. Yep, absolutely. The next thing that we were going to discuss was the RFP's been doing a series on King James Onlyism. We've done our own series on King James Onlyism. But they've been interviewing Mark Ward, who has written the book Authorized, the use and misuse of the King James Version. And this, I know when this drops, Episode 4 will already be out. But Episode 3 is what we wanted to talk about. And I just wanted to say, that episode was fantastic. And a lot of the things that Mark presented on there were aspects that I've studied this subject in and out for several years. And an aspect of it that I had not looked into, which I thought was really, really good. And that was the false friends notion of some English terms. What do you think about that, James? Man, the false friends was, I knew what they were. I knew, I've experienced them and I've talked to people. I've just never used that phrase, false friends. And I thought that that was a great term for it. And I thought that really, how many times as the episode ended, do I read that prayer? And I use, so that, as I would normally use it. But it doesn't mean that. And even the thought of that commendeth, we know what it means because of the context. And I like how he said that. The context does reveal what the word means. But if you were just to throw that word out in normal language, it doesn't mean what they're talking about in that verse. And so the thought he said with intelligibility, understandability, readability was really, really, really good. And I've really enjoyed that series they've been doing. And I'm looking forward to their last episode coming out this week. Absolutely. Absolutely. And this time we are going to go into our IFB sermon clip of the week. And so brought to you by IFB sermon clips on YouTube. And so here it is, our IFB sermon clip of the week. The book of Numbers, chapter 24. As you're finding your place, I'd like to, if I can, make mention of one of the books that's on the book table. This is a book entitled, Thunder Under the Tent. I just the other day wrote an article for a fundamental magazine on tent meetings. And Dr. Smell, you'll find it interesting. I titled the article, Tent Meetings, an exclamation point on fundamentalism. I don't believe there's anything that says old time religion quite like a tent meeting. You've never heard of a liberal church or a church that's leaning towards liberalism having a tent meeting. They just don't do that. And so I believe with all of my heart that an exclamation point on fundamentalism, on old time religion, on New Testament Christianity is a tent meeting. And here are, and I don't know why, but here are seven messages that have only been preached under a tent. They have never been preached in an auditorium. They've never been preached in a revival meeting. They've never been preached in a conference like this, the Independent Baptist Conference. They have only been preached in a tent meeting. Messages like, oh, verses for the valley. How does a child of God go about doing a great work for God? Let's go fishing when a standard bear fainteth. And seven messages just like that. I've had people buy the book and say that one message, how does a child of God go about doing a great work for God? Was worth the $10 that they paid for the book. Just that single message. And so here they are, seven messages only preached in a tent meeting. It has the flavor, has the feel of a tent meeting, so much so that you probably ought to wear mosquito repellent when you're reading the sermons. Oh, my goodness. So the thing we wanted to point out about this clip was this thing within the IFB that guest speakers come and do. And let me say it in sort of a crass manner. They hawk their material from the pulpit, set up their tables outside, and then try to sell their goods inside the church. Most people don't think about this, I guess, because it's just part of the culture. But this is something that me and James are not too fond of. And here's just a clip that sort of examines that. To me, it's just cringeworthy. What do you think, James? Yeah, the selling book side of it is very cringeworthy. We had a guy in Idaho that would come. His name was Rick Dayton. He owned a lighting company. And he would set up his book table in the back during a student chapel during church service. And he would preach. And he would say, all the books back there are free. Pick one up if you're going to read it. If you're not going to read it, don't pick it up. But if you want to throw a love offering or throw something down on the table, that's fine. But I'm not going to charge you for it, which I think is great. If you've got something good, we shouldn't have to always make money. And the whole authorized book, I got it for three bucks or something on Logos by Mark Ward. It had a great discount. Why wouldn't I buy it? But he didn't get up in church. And he just advertised on there, hey, if you want to be a help. There were a couple of statements in that very small clip that I wanted to pull out. And I wanted to get your thoughts on it, John. He said these seven messages were by him. They're $10. I wonder if this is his seven messages that he preaches when he goes to camp meetings. He said... His seven messages. He said you might as... He said you might as well go ahead and get out your bug spray. Wonder, are you supposed to have your bottle of sawdust out beside it as well while you're reading this so that you can really get the full effect and smell of it? What's your thought on that, John? Hey. Hey. That's my thought. Hey. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. No, I have a similar situation that you explained. Like, we just had an evangelist. And when I say evangelist, I'm talking about like an actual biblical evangelist. Someone who does not travel around from church to church and preach some type of revival message and get people stirred up. I'm talking about an actual evangelist. This guy goes into the open air and preaches the gospel and this kind of thing. And this is... Let me say this. I know that there may be people that are familiar with some very extreme open air gospel preachers. We made sure that we check these guys out and they are doing it in a loving Christ-like spirit. And so he came and come in with a couple boxes. And I was like, are you wanting to set up some materials to sell? And he said, no. He said, I have two bookshelves at my house that I buy materials, copies of books and things that I want to give away. And he said, I fill it up. And when people come over, I give it to people. And then he said, so I brought some here with me. And if you don't mind, I'd like to set them up. And whoever can have them. He said, I'll leave them here. I'm not taking them back. You can just leave them out. People can have them completely free. And I said, you are awesome. And that's the thing. I understand books cost money. I understand that the production of a book costs money. I understand that there should be a return for the person who put the work in to write the book. I get all that. To me, though, coming into God's church during God's worship hour and proclaiming God's word, but wanting to sell your materials, to me just doesn't jive. Yeah, I loved how he started out by saying, if I may, like it's a question, but he didn't ask the question. He just continued on, which is, it's a funny little headway. John, the only last thing I wanted to say in this, he said that only fundamental churches, he said, you don't hear any Pentecostal, any crazy liberal churches have tent meetings. He said, so this is a foundational issue of fundamentalism is tent meetings. My mind immediately went to what other things are held in tent meetings is a circus. You go to a circus in a tent, and when you go to these tent meetings, me and you have been to them, it's a circus is what it is. It's people screaming. I was a part of it. People running laps. I was a part of it. It is a circus in a tent that they're calling revival. And that's sort of my take. When I heard that, that's what I thought of. Wow. You just dropped a bomb on them. You're right. He even said, more than fundamentalism, he even said a part of New Testament Christianity. Yeah, he did. I forgot about that. That is the New Testament. Yeah, the tent meeting. Jesus met in a tent meeting. Well, Paul was a tent maker, so that's why he's probably thinking that. He's probably exegeting that, that Paul was a tent maker. He made tents for his tent meeting. Ha! Ha! Well, we'll move past that, and we want to get into today's episode. And today we are going to cover part two of what we covered last week. And this is our two-part episode that we have done with a special guest, Rebecca Drumsta, and her spiritual identity disruption model that she has done, put together. And I believe that this is extremely helpful. And I want to drive everybody to go check out Rebecca's website, RebeccaDrumsta.com. You can find more materials there and that kind of thing. So we moved through a couple of the stages and introduced what the spiritual identity disruption model was. And then we got to about the, I think, stage four, stage five with fear and anxiety. And I know that this can be like last episode. It sort of seemed like these were a little bit downer stages and stuff like this. It is part of life, but we are going to get to, in this episode, finish it up and get to where things turn around. And the more positive side and some help. And Rebecca has supplied quite a bit of help with this. And some of her insights on this, I think, are invaluable. So enjoy listening to this. Here's part two of the spiritual identity disruption with Rebecca Drumsta. And I like the key term, I think, that you just, Mitch, was slowly. Slowly. Because if you're anything like my personality type, you're going to be like, just give it all to me at one time. And I think that can lead to, taking all that in can lead to the next stage. And what is that? That would be fear and uncertainty. And it says radical change begins internally and then outwardly. Oh, but what if you're wrong? What if I mess up my life? What if I totally ruin my kids? What if? And so there's that time of, it all starts on the inside. So for many years, my husband would say, you haven't changed. You're the same person. Like, but you don't know. I don't do this anymore. I don't do that anymore. And I used to think this. And he's like, but you seem like the same person. And then all of a sudden, one day, he wakes up and says, oh, my goodness, you've changed. And so it all starts on the inside, though. Especially for those of us, again, with a deep theological background, where doctrine was so important. We're more cautious sometimes. And so this change will go from the inside out. It's like when you start dieting, you know, I'm going to eat more salads and eat more whatever. It's a slow process. But then all of a sudden, your skin clears up. And oh, my hands aren't swollen. Or oh, I've lost 10 pounds. That's the same way it works with this. And it's a slow inward change, or it should be. And then it comes out. But there's so much fear. Because fundamentalism at the core, at the root, where it started was with fear. Because all the way back to the Niagara Convention, they were afraid. There had been Marie Curie and all these new discoveries. And then came along Darwin. So they were scared. The religious leaders of the day, whether it was Hudson Taylor and all these big names, they were scared that people were walking away from the fundamentals of faith. So they would all come together, which was beautiful. Different denominations all coming together to create what they agreed upon were the fundamentals of the Christian faith. But it was fear-based, because then they started sending, having all these letters written and all these things written up to mail out to people in publications. And you can't let people, oh, no, they're believing in evolution. Oh, no, they're believing more in science. Oh, no. They had this fear. But then it carries over into our modern age of fundamentalism with Bob Jones and Jack Hiles and Jerry Falwell. You have like the last 50 or so years, and they totally played on your fears. So now at the root of fundamentalism, I can't believe this because that's wrong. And there's so much fear that is based there. And so that's one of the things I work through with clients is fear is at the root of all of this stuff. Before you can find freedom, before you can go into your future, you have to face the fears that are the foundation of almost all of fundamental beliefs. Not that they're wrong, but fear should not be the reason you do or don't do something. Fear should not be the reason you believe or don't believe something. Yes, there's healthy fear, like don't touch the stove because it'll burn you. So I'm not talking about that, but I'm talking about this literal, almost your blood kind of gets pumping and you get, I can't do that. I'm scared. That type of fear. And so you will be faced smack on with these beliefs and scared to death. The biggest one you hear is what if I hurt my kids? But honesty, transparency, growing with your children, that can be transformative. And this one for me, Rebecca, was really, really hard because when we moved from Idaho back to North Carolina, this two year, I knew I needed to be in ministry. I knew God wanted me in ministry and we were volunteering at a church and we were helping, but it wasn't full-time ministry. It wasn't preaching like I wanted to or I felt that God wanted me to. And so this, what if I was wrong? What if I had made a mistake? What if by leaving, I'm out of God's will now? What if, you know, am I going to mess up my life? Am I never going to find a church now? I've got an unaccredited Bible college degree and I'm not even in the independent Baptist world anymore. My wife, she's got a degree that, you know, she can teach in Arkansas at any school, but we're not in Arkansas. And so now this degree, it's useless for her. And so if she wants to teach in a public school, she'd have to get all these other testing. And this fear and questions began to happen. And, you know, this is really, when I read through your stuff, this is the one that resonated most with me on the backside of it. You know, the beginning, the other questioning and the learning, but on the other side of it, now, you know, it's been a couple years. And that fear is happening. And am I going to ever get back in ministry? How is life going to go? Am I going to, is there going to be a new normal? Well, I don't know. So this was really impactful for me. Yeah. Isn't this sort of, I'm going to throw a little bit of a lighter tone out there, but last week I had mentioned this as an illustration of sort of what this can be like was the Disney film Tangled. Isn't this sort of like the concept of where Rapunzel leaves the tower and she's so excited and happy she's feeling grass for the first time. And then all of a sudden she's scared to death of what she has just done. It's sort of the correlation, the parallel of that kind of scene. No, but going back to the fear and anxiety thing, we sort of felt that even five years afterwards, my theology had completely changed. It was just like when it came time to tithe, it was like, wait, do we need to, how much are we given? Do we need to give this 10%? And I'm like, well, if we don't, then God's going to get it somehow, which is the line you always heard in church. And I'm like, wait a second, is tithing a New Testament concept and that kind of stuff? And I was like, wait a second, this is another one of those things that had me, had a hold on me. Well, I like how you mentioned Tangled earlier because that song, the mama knows best, that song is like, oh my word, that's so authoritarian. That's so culty. That's so controlling. That's, you know, all of that. And that's where this fear and uncertainty would come in. And one of like a question that you could go to is when I've been faced with decisions before, what has been the outcome? How have I made those decisions? What has been the outcome? Has it been a good outcome? And so as you're moving forward through this fear and uncertainty of, am I going to begin ministry again? Am I going to mess up my child? What are we going to do with our degrees? Always look backwards a little bit. Sometimes you've got to go back in order to move forward and see when I have been faced with these decisions, what did I do? What was the outcome? And you can start to either realize you may need to pivot a little bit and change it up, or you can say, wait, that worked out pretty good. I handled that well. I now believe this and I would have done it that way. So you can start to see some of your progress, but also trust that again. And for me, I've always said my eyes are on God and I don't, I have to like, I don't know what else to do. I just have to say, God, I'm moving forward. And that's all I know. I'm just moving forward. But that fear will grip you. It will cripple you. And fear is a liar. You've got to remember that. And that fear that's in there, you've been wired to be afraid. If you have a legalistic background, if you have all that, you've been wired to fear. But perfect love casts out fear. God is love. So where there is God, how can there be fear? Yeah, that's so good. She's laying out some straight biblical counseling today, y'all. So come on. Be writing this down. That's good. All right, this next one, after fear, it should lead to peace. You know, we get this next natural progression. Let us talk about this peace and advocacy a little bit and about how this is a season of rest. You know, so many times when me and John went over our book reviews at the end of the year, one of the books I recommended was called Reset and Refresh by Murray. And it's such a great book to read yearly to be thinking, okay, how can I refresh my mind? How can I? All right, everybody take a deep sigh. Now we're just a peaceful part of the conversation. Meditation. No more fear. No more fear. So yeah, so I have, I've kind of written out like you're comfortable with your new life, your new identity, your new beliefs, and now you're ready and you want to help others. So there will come this season where you're like, wow, I've processed through my beliefs and my views on marriage. Sweet. Okay, I've changed some parenting things. Good. We're good to go for the next five years. All right. I've figured out what I believe about this doctrine or that. So once you've figured out, you come to this place where you are comfortable with who you are. Maybe I'm not IFB anymore. Now I'm Southern Baptist. I like being Southern Baptist. This is good. Or now I'm Presbyterian or I'm Orthodox or wherever you've landed, or I'm not in church anymore. Wherever you've landed, you come to this place of peace. And now you can look back and say, all right, I've had my hand up reaching for help. Now I'm ready to put my hand back and help bring somebody else with me. And that's one of my husband's favorite illustrations, even within business and everything, a hand up and a hand down. And so you're ready. You feel at peace. You feel good. You don't feel that tension. You don't feel that overwhelming fear or uncertainty or anxiety. You don't have that crazy desire to read every book that was ever written. And it's kind of like a breath of fresh air. And this could be a really great spot when you start helping others. I see a lot of people start podcasts, start blogs, start writing books. Once they've hit this space where they feel like they've processed through enough that now they can take that and learn and grow and help others. The beautiful thing about this part is I even saw a comment recently from Beth Moore where she was like, you know, I go back and read some of the first books I ever wrote. And I don't really agree with that lady anymore. And she's like, but this is part of being a Christian writer and being a Christian in general is that when you have a relationship with God, you're going to look back and see where you've grown, where you've changed, the places that you've gone that you didn't expect you would go. But that's growth. That's that growth mindset and being willing to change. And that's where, again, from a legalistic background, legalistic viewpoint, you don't change. I have the truth. This is it. Absolutely. I will never deviate from the truth. And so that peace and advocacy, it doesn't mean that you're going to look back and be like, oh, that was kind of weird what I actually thought I had figured out. And I felt peaceful believing at that time. You may still 10 years down the line or five years down the line, you may change your beliefs again. But this is a time of rest, like you said, a time of rest, a time where you can start helping others who you see are processing or hurting in the ways that you've now been able to work through. And it's part of the, this is the one, the best part of the process, I think, is when we can come and we can start helping others and make sense of our pain, make sense of the struggle or the loss that we've had. And saying, I'm not going to let this make me angry and bitter and spiteful and hateful, but I'm going to take all of this and help somebody else because somebody else is hurting too. And yeah, the peace and advocacy thing is, is something that I feel like I got to about I've been just go and, you know, just searching. But I think that the one thing, and this may be the, well, I'm going to save that for whenever we get to the last part of jumping between stages. But yeah, this was, this was something of like, I was reading 50 books a year and trying to up that each time. And then about two years ago, I was just like, you know what, take it easy, relax a little bit. I've been just like soaking in as much as I could. I'm like, I don't have to, nobody's going to sit there and like smack me upside the head if I don't get this book written. So, you know, if I don't read a book this month, it's okay. It is. It is. And so I got to that point where it was like, okay, I know where I'm at. I know where I'm at. And yeah, I appreciate it. James, you got any comments? I'm just loving everything she's saying. It's great. This one, and I like what you said, this sort of moves to the more positive aspect of the stages. And this being also the deeper consciousness is what you, so this, this needed to, I had to read this, the, the, just the term deeper consciousness. I was like, what, what, but, you know, I, I love this part of it. I love this part of the journey. Yeah. Yeah. So deeper consciousness is, could be a time where your awareness increases again, and you must face even greater realities about yourself, your beliefs or your past. So for some people, this might be another awareness moment that brings on this deeper consciousness. It might be just a moment of realization of how far you've come where you say, I didn't realize, you know, for example, when my daughter was first born, I thought that I had to put big, beautiful bows in her hair and have all these perfect little jimboree matchy, matchy outfits. And I, because I was taught when you leave your home, you're an example of Christ to the world of homeschoolers of your family. And you have to look perfect and we have to dress and have makeup done and hair done. And everything has to be perfect when we go present ourselves to the world. And we were really just running to Walmart to grab laundry detergent. And so I took that into my early parenting and I couldn't leave, you know, the house unless my child looked perfect to the point where we were in a car accident and food got spilled all over her. She was about two years old. And before I would take her out of her, out of the car to talk to the police officer, I put clean clothes on her because the food had spilled all over her. And it was those moments that I realized as I was progressing on my journey, like, wait a minute, that's not an essential to Christianity. That is not what the Bible is teaching. So I had these moments of a deeper awareness of, oh, I didn't even know I still believed that or I didn't know that was why I believed this. And now it's been a process. It's been a journey, but sometimes we don't even brush hair before we run out to Walmart. So, you know, we're wearing flip-flops and mismatched clothes. Okay, so what? Because people are, I don't want people to judge me based on how I look. I want people to make a decision about me based on my character, how I treat others, you know, those things, if you're going to meet me at Walmart and make a snap judgment about me. Um, and truthfully, I think God can handle his own reputation and he doesn't need me to be the one who takes care of his reputation based on how I'm dressed. And so there's deeper consciousness. It can cut either. It's something that it's, it can be this positive moment of I've come so far. Oh my goodness. I didn't realize I used to think that, or you walk into a church or into a situation in a meeting or somewhere and something feels normal. Or you realize that used to be me and that's really weird. Um, or it can be this moment of another awareness of I need to work through this even more. Oh my goodness. I didn't realize I still believed this. Now I do need to do some more processing, do some more work, you know, talk to a coach, talk to a counselor. So done with my husband and process through. Um, so it can have two kind of two sides to this deeper consciousness. It's just, it's a deeper understanding. And that's when I say consciousness, it's that deeper understanding of where you are, where you've been. And again, it might be a moment that brings it on. It might be a conversation for me. So often it's been a movie. I'll be watching a movie or something and it triggers this. Oh my goodness. Moment for me. But, um, it can be, it's a good thing because it means that you've, you've advanced. That means you've taken steps forward. If you're able to now understand those deeper realities about your beliefs, about your past, um, about yourself and your identity. You know, and if I could use this term, this is, and I don't mean this in a derogatory manner as well, but it's, it's, it's maturing. It's, it's, it's, it's coming to a state of maturity. And the reason I say that is because, I mean, if you think of being in a spiritually abusive community or a cult, and then what they do, they, they keep you from maturing. You really keep you at an immature state. I mean, I even think of that, uh, there's a show on Netflix called the unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. Oh yes. And you know, if you look at her character, the first season is good. I don't like the other season. The first season it was, Oh my goodness, I've done that. Yeah. But her character is almost like a little girl. Mm-hmm. Because that's what those types of things do. And, and, and you feel like that, you feel like you're, you're finally growing up in certain ways. And I hate to sort of, I don't want that to come across as sort of like dumbing anything down or, or being derogatory because I've, that's, I'm, I'm there. That's, that's me too. So it's, it's not a, it's not a negative thing because when you come from a cult-like background, like you said, you have been so controlled. So often you've never made a decision for yourself. You've never had to plan ahead for your future. Cause that was all spelled out for you. You've never. So there's all these things that as parents, I am supposed to be helping equip my child to live that life. She gets to practice decision-making in my home. She gets to make mistakes while I'm there to help her. She gets to make good choices and while I'm there to help celebrate those with her. And so, but that's not what it is. In a legalistic cult-like authoritarian controlling environment, they, they control your behavior, your information, their thoughts, your emotions. Don't you show anger? That's a sin. No, actually it's not hitting somebody because I'm angry. That could, yes. But the emotion of anger, that is not a sin. Yes. Jesus showed anger when he cast the people out of the temple. He wasn't sinning. He was feeling angry. And so those are those things that you experience. Like anger, especially is a big emotion for someone with that very fundamentalist life, like being raised fundamentalist. Like I still remember when I completely blew up at my husband. I'm, I mean, we're talking rage for like five minutes where he was left staring at me going, um, um, uh, uh, uh, because I had never done that. I'm not an angry person. I don't yell and scream. I don't do that. And so at the end of my rage, I remember going upstairs and then coming back five minutes later and went, what did I just do? I am really sorry. I have no idea what just happened to me. I don't know why I did that. I don't know what's, you know. And so then I go to my counselor, I talk it through and it's like, you've advanced, you're growing. I'm like, that was a good thing. And it was, yes, because you were taught to repress all of those emotions. Anger is sinful. And so when you finally came to the point where you felt anger and you were able to let it out. Now we're going to learn on, you know, make sure we don't do that again. But at the same time, it's a good thing that you were able to, so you're going to find those moments in this deeper consciousness where why am I suddenly expressing anger? Why am I suddenly, but again, that's healthy. That's a step forward. Yes, you need to have a coach or a counselor who's walking alongside you as if those things are happening. But yes, it's because you've been controlled. You've been taught that you have to do it this way. So you feel, and this is where I say, if you have children, in a lot of ways, you're growing up alongside them. You're reparenting yourself. So many parents don't know how to play with their children. If you were raised very strict, you don't know how to play. I've struggled with that personally. And so you're reparenting yourself. And it's not a negative thing to say it's maturing or whatever. It's reality. But it can be, depends on your perspective, it can be a very good thing, a very healthy thing that you get to do with your husband, with your wife, with your family. Yep. And let's go to this last stage. And this is the one that, you know, I want some clarification because, you know, for me, vulnerability. You just wrote here, you embrace your new identity and belief. You're willing to own a new way of thinking. And so if you don't mind defining that for us. And then I think John's got one other question for us and we'll be done for the day. Cool. So being vulnerable. Part of that is sharing your story in a public place, like on a podcast. That's part of vulnerability. Another part of vulnerability, which could be hard, but because you believe, you've processed through all this, you've worked through it all, and now you own your new belief, would be whenever you're at grandma's house. And grandma's like, your kid needs a spanking, you would say, you know what, we actually don't believe in spanking anymore, and here's why. And you're willing to handle the fallout that comes from saying, this is my new belief. This is our new lifestyle choice. This is our new whatever it might be. And so you're willing to be vulnerable because you may be attacked. You might be questioned. You might get pushback. But because you are sound and solid in what you believe and why, you are willing to be vulnerable. You're willing to expose those new beliefs, those new choices in parenting or in your marriage structure or in how whatever it might be, wearing pants for the first time to church. Those are vulnerable moments. But because you now know for sure that this is who you are, this is your new identity, or this is your new belief. Here's why. I've read the Bible for myself, or I've done my own research. I've talked with lots of people. I've been through counseling. And this is the new me. This is my new beliefs. So, again, exposing that to the world. Basically, so many people are afraid. Like you were talking about earlier about pastors who can't walk away because their finances are tied to their ministry or to their traveling family singers or, you know, whatever it may be. Once you tell somebody, this is what I believe now, or I'm leaving the IFB church, or I'm wearing pants now to church, or big or small issues, that's very vulnerable because you might come under attack. You might be faced with having to defend your new position. Or it could open you back up to over to grief and loss when people say, us four are no more. If you're not like us anymore, you're out of here. And vulnerability is not a bad thing. I think that some people think that it's a sign of, you know, a lot of the problems we have in the way that we view things in our culture is that we view that as some type of weak. Actually, I'm going to get a little theological here for a second. The idea of fellowship, the Greek term behind the word fellowship is used in our English translations, that is supposed to be a key element of the church, is koinonia. And one of the aspects of accomplishing koinonia with a group of believers is this aspect of being vulnerable with one another. Now, it's a delicate balance, right? Because you're talking about coming from, in the context of coming from something that has made you very vulnerable. But what we've talked about is the growth process that gets you back to that stage where you're confident in vulnerability. Yes. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And part of that is cultivating a culture of vulnerability around you. And we were talking about mental health in the church earlier. It's possible that that is a reason why mental health is not one of the factors. Why mental health is not discussed so much. Because if a man were to say, like John was sharing, I've kind of been a little bit depressed. Well, that doesn't sound very manly, does it? To admit that you're depressed? To be vulnerable and go to people and say, I need help? Sometimes, especially within those authoritarian where performance and appearance is everything in these environments, you can't be vulnerable and share that, you know, I'm feeling emotional. I'm feeling afraid. I'm feeling or having these questions. So helping craft that culture around you, whether it's in your family or in your church or being vulnerable is not looked at as a bad thing. And it's looked at as a healthy thing because you're either reaching out for help or you're connecting with somebody else. You're building that community by not showing how we're different from each other, but by showing how we're all the same. We're all struggling. We're all going through this. And I was listening to a lecture from Steve Hassan, one of the cult experts in the world right now. And he was saying how every single human being, no matter who you are, no matter how educated you are, no matter how aware you are, you're all susceptible to being sucked into a cult or a cult mentality. You know, when you're saying that, my mind went to James 5.16 where it says, confess your sins, your faults, one to another. And, you know, how hard it is to do that sometimes because we don't have that fellowship, because we don't have that trust. You know, I can go to John and tell him anything. We grew up together. We're best friends. We've got that fellowship to where because we've been hurt in the past, it's harder for us to do that in a public setting or in a private setting, in a small group setting. And so this really brings it to that full circle. Like John said, I thought it was pretty good. Yeah. And this brings back to what I wanted to get to. And one of the things whenever I posted my comment on the RFP community page was one of the things I was trying to see if it was just, if anybody sort of, it made sense to anybody was whenever I posted it. And one of the comments that sort of, oh, I didn't think about that was I had people commenting, oh, I'm in stage three and four. And then somebody said, I'm stage two, five, six. And I'm like, wait a second, people. And so then when I found Rebecca's website and started reading through, she had a whole section of alternating between stages of spiritual identity disruption. And I was like, oh, so can you comment on this? Because I think this is a huge part of this. Because some people may think, well, hey, I'm in stage seven, but I still feel like I'm here sometimes. And it may be discouraging to them, but they shouldn't feel discouraged. Right. So there's an episode of Monk. And I think he's processing through the grief that he had when his wife died in this certain episode. And he literally, in like a five-minute period, processes through every single stage of grief in this five-minute period. I don't think you've ever seen Monk. And that's kind of how spiritual identity disruption is also. So you could get a phone call from an old church friend or your mom or whatever, you read a post on social media. And you suddenly find yourself in this, like, grief and loss place. Or them too. Like, I've especially here lately with Robbie Zacharias and all these other things that have gone on. That disbelief and distrust spot. You go back there, well, I thought that was one person you could trust. But who else can we trust now? Like, are all pastors bad? Like, that's literally where you go to. And so this is just to help you. It's a guide. It is not an absolute. You will not go from awareness to disbelief and distress, grief and loss searching. You're not going to follow this pattern. Exactly. You might. But also within an hour, within a day, within a week, you may find yourself cycling back and forth between these places. And sometimes, usually, usually that deeper consciousness vulnerability, usually that last few kind of go in a little bit more of a stage of a process, but not always. Because you could open yourself up and be very vulnerable now with your family about your new parenting techniques and beliefs. But after you leave that family dinner, you come home and you are thrown right back into grief and loss and searching. Was I wrong? Maybe I messed up. Now I have fear. Now I have uncertainty. And so this is just a guide. This is just to let you know you're not alone in what you're experiencing and what you're processing. What you're feeling. If you are going through these stages, if you can, it helps. Naming what you're feeling is sometimes half the battle. Knowing what it is. Oh, it's grief. Okay. Let's work through grief. Sometimes if you don't have a name for it or you don't know what it is, that can be one of the biggest challenges is just naming it, identifying it. And so this is not to be your absolute guide for walking through deconstruction or confusing spiritual identity moments. But this is to be that helpful resource, a tool for you. And yes, they're going to pop in and out in a day, in a week, in a month, in a year. You will cycle through it all. But I just hope that it is a resource that you can know you're not alone. You're not crazy. And that there are other people who are experiencing this too. And can I say to our listeners, what you just heard is incredibly humble for the person who developed this to say. Most people, they get something that is well put together like this and they want everybody to just, you know, this is the law of the land. But for Rebecca to say what she just said, I think is also a testament to the humility that she has. And also her heart that she, like James and I, have such a desire to just help someone else along the journey. And so Rebecca, we appreciate you so much for taking the time to come on here and discuss this. And we want to drive people to your website. I want people to do this because I think that what she has developed is so much more in-depth and understanding than what I had talked about. So her website is RebeccaDrumsta.com. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Okay. And it's Rebecca, like the Hebrew spelling. Yeah. R-E-B-K-A-H. I'm under the law. I'm not under grace yet. Come on. And she has a whole lot of great blog articles and many other resources on there. So go check that out and let that help you with whatever process that you are in during your journey. And so any final comments, James? I'm good. It's been great. And go to her website, guys. Check it out. Check her out on Facebook and Twitter. I don't know if you're on Twitter or not. And I'm sure she'll be loved to touch base with you if you have any questions. And until next time, hopefully see you later. John? Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you. And thank you, everybody, for listening to the podcast. And until next time, to God not guilt be the glory. Thank you for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give a rating, leave a comment, or share it on Facebook or Twitter. To find more helpful resources for your journey through the independent fundamental Baptist world, check out RFPNetwork.org, where you can find this podcast and others, such as the Recovering Fundamentals podcast, the RFWP podcast, the Young Baptist podcast, the Church Split, the Preacher's Kids podcast, the 26 Letters podcast, and the RFP in Espanol. God bless. God bless. God bless. Oh, oh, oh, oh

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