138. Freedom to Start Over

welcome back to the freedom podcast brett we are coming out of our summer break and it has been a an eventful summer from ministry to the world politics to um just family man we've been traveling and enjoying our time together being able to see friends and family and it has been a wonderful summer my kids started back to school wednesday and uh we are back into our what i say normal life but you know where kids are away and going uh we've had some some things in the church good things some some negative as far as death in the church recently and uh so we are definitely plugging away with ministry um i love the topic that we're going to talk about today because it hits in a couple of different ways but uh before we get into that how has your summer been my friend man it's amazing how during the summer first thing that happens during the summer in church is people scatter people go all over they go on trips they go on this they go this they're playing this ball they're going on this over here and then the busyness we just get all these things together we get vacation bible school and then this year we actually not only did our vacation bible school we actually went one county over to a church that's going through a revitalization and we did a vacation bible school for them they wanted to do one but they didn't have the manpower to pull it off so we went over and helped them decorate and we did the classes for them and really helped them got them a lot of uh new contacts you know there were 32 kids at that vacation bible school 22 of those kids didn't have a church home or put that church as their home so a lot of good contacts for the pastor to go visit and uh i was glad to be able to help them do that but yeah we're just you know we're getting back into what i say getting back into the swing of things right getting back into a routine settling back in now that the school year has started and hopefully we can get some of our people to you know settle back into routines but we're looking forward and it's not over yet we got a mission trip coming up in a few weeks going to nicaragua with your church actually and we're looking forward to that september is a busy month for us but man it's just ministry life you know you never know what you're going to get when it comes summertime that's exactly right and i mean i am looking forward to our mission trip to nicaragua with lee with united christian missions what a great time that's going to be to be able to mentor and help down there in nicaragua mentor those pastors our team of that's coming from both of our churches to just be able to have a wonderful time together and man i am excited about leaving the country with you and then in just a short couple of weeks after that i say a couple weeks but i mean it really is just a couple weeks we'll be at our rfp meetup and uh we'll be jumping into uh lake oaklefork is that how it's at oaklefork fork oaklefork fork oaklefork i can't even say it right uh but we're gonna be down there yeah we're gonna be down in katusa it's gonna be a great time and uh hopefully you'll be down there we are planning on doing a five to six week rfp mashup uh we did this several years ago where we brought the network together and uh did a different episode with each and every network host and uh looking forward to that already been lining up dates and times with them to record and uh so we hope you'll enjoy that as well and then after that brett first of the year will be coming around 2025 as of right now what do we have planned as of right now we are planning on we're planning on going to israel um things are still you know unless that changes we'll keep you updated on that uh you know we're looking forward to that and hopefully we'll be able to go and it just depends on it's a wait and see game uh but we're all looking forward to that i'm always looking forward to going through the promised land and uh hopefully we can get that worked out absolutely absolutely well brett without further ado because i have been itching to get back into the hot seat and to be able to record again and uh man i i love taking our breaks but after about a month been away it's like man i'm ready to get back i'm ready to record i'm ready to put some stuff out lord works with me and begins to give me ideas and thoughts and i just i'm excited about jumping back in and especially about our topic today freedom to start over and uh what that looks like how that works in our life and so without further ado let's jump into this episode today let's go i do not mean to be mean i do mean to be mad those that criticize this kind of preaching they don't like authority if you ain't got the king james you ain't got hey you don't have a king james you don't have a bible and it'd be surprised son don't go to sleep while i'm talking hey hey hey don't don't don't you lay your head back i'm i'm important i'm somebody i love you you know i love you have i convinced you i love you yeah you better said you better nod your head yes all right come on put it right there all right you stay awake and you listen to me i still believe if you have cold day and healthy pride get my family to a woman i'm a preacher when you got dressed today you dressed deity this is the for freedom podcast a podcast that is part of the rfp network that seeks to bring freedom in christ from the spiritual abuse of legalism and so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from scripture the problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in scripture it is a part of the description but the defining principle in scripture is love i found my freedom in you i found my freedom in you i found a joy i can't lose and thank god it's true you wrapped your arms around me and heaven broke through from the moment you found me i found my freedom in you welcome to the for freedom podcast this podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday christians with everyday issues now here are your hosts james safer and brad martin welcome back to the podcast and it is uh great to be back it's great to uh have that fun little uh mashup of an intro and my favorite my favorite part is the legacy quote from john it's like you know you know the old timer sticking to the old past that's right that's right i love it i think it's great and so brett there's been this uh we we've talked about it before we haven't necessarily talked about it with you me and john have uh but there is this uh even now i often forget people are still leaving legalism people are still leaving uh fundamentalism and uh oppressive pastors and the often the the thought and the the struggle that they have is well where do i go from here how how do i how do i begin this journey again we covered some of these things back in the early days back in episode 30 and uh we talked through uh leaving a church and so we're gonna rehash some of those things from a fresh light for me and and you it's been years since we left legalism i'm coming up on nine or ten years now um and so there is this growth that happens we're gonna give some statements to help today uh but these are some things that you may hear once you leave legalism and uh let's talk to this first clip and then we're gonna talk about we've got a song we're gonna play today and talk to that song and then give some helps as well and so as we get started brett before i play this clip uh how how long have you been out of legalism what's what does it look like for you as far as uh the old paths the king james only like how how long has it been for you since you've left in that era it has been eight years since i kind of left uh legalism it kind of started when i first became a a senior pastor eight years ago and that kind of started the process for me of coming out of it and it wasn't just an instant out it took time to go through the steps it took time to progress and get through that and and come completely out uh even within a a few years after i had left legalism there were still things in me that had to be beat out of me and had to be processed out i still had some wrong thinking about things it just takes time you know it doesn't happen overnight and people don't need to be uh discouraged that this process takes time it's very jarring it'll shock your world it'll you know make you think that your world's falling down we constantly talk about the island it feels like you're on an island because you try to tell normal people about the stuff that you've experienced and then look at you like a calf looks at a new gate like you know you got two heads like what in the world are you talking about they can't relate to you at all and that's why it's so important to have a community of people uh that you know has been through the same thing and through the rfp network and this podcast we've been able to reach out and help so many people i've had the opportunity to talk to people have reached out to me on social media and they've hit me up on my dms just asking for help and i've been able to help people process this thing and it's it's a great thing to be able to help somebody come out of legalism into the freedom of christ absolutely you're exactly right and these are some things that you may hear as you are in a legalistic church or even have left legalism altogether and so listen to this uh i don't even know who this pastor is brett it's the the first first one you sent me uh do you know his name do you know who this is i do not all right so just give a listen to this and of course these are the christians these are the christians who have compromised that use one particular word legalist legalist in case you don't know legalist means to add something to salvation and so they're saying men of god preachers who preach the bible as it is and preach the doctrine of separation from the world are legalists because they're adding something to salvation baloney they know better than that and they know they're not telling the truth and their members are parroting them and they don't understand what they're saying separation is not legalism legalism is saying you got to be baptized too besides trusting jesus or you got to give you got to give so much money to the church and that's where i sort of compromiserewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrew You'd be very, very hard-pressed to find any of those churches that have Sunday school, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. Very hard. There may be some yet. Baptist churches. So he said legalism is not separation. If you've been in a Baptist church any amount of time like I have, they love the Webster's Dictionary, right? And they love the old school. This is what Webster has to say about legalism. Strict, literal, or excessive conformality to the law or religious or a moral code. It is literally this thought of overbearing, this thought of taking and ruling over someone to conform to the way you want them to be. And so this is a tough thing because I think my nature, you study scripture, and I thought to people even at my church now, they say, man, I love the Old Testament because I know exactly what I'm supposed to do. Do this and don't do that. Don't wear this. Don't wear that. Do go here. Don't wear this. We're made for rules. And so when we get to the New Testament and Paul says, hey, you've got freedom. You've got the Holy Spirit that dwells in you that gives you freedom, that gives you liberty in Christ. Our spirit doesn't know how to do that. Our spirit doesn't know how to deal with that. And so it is easy for us to make these statements of legalism and these statements of overbearingness. what's your thoughts on on that clip there brett people love let me say a little bit about what you just said people love the old testament they love the law they love tell me what to do and i'll do it 10 i'll give 10 of my income all day but you look at the old for example but you look at the old testament it's not just 10 there were three different tithes there was the food bank tithe there was the levitical tithe there was the feast tithe and then you had all these little things you had to do it actually added up to more like 23 if you want to do a one-on-one comparison so they say oh 10 like the old testament saints did but then we come to the new testament and paul doesn't give a percentage he says give as god has prospered you you know whatever you have in your heart to give so it's not a set rule once again we're spirit led it's let the spirit guide you now if you're new to tithing you can start out at 10 that's what abraham and jacob did in genesis but when it comes down to actual giving paul says you let the holy spirit guide you it needs to be generous it needs to be sacrificial but the holy spirit needs to guide you on the amount it's not a set amount it's the it's because we live we don't live by the letter of the law anymore we live by the spirit and that's what the new testament's all about and in that clip you know it's so ingrained in independent fundamental baptist and legalist that that legalism their definition of legalism is just for salvation only like you can only be a legalist when it comes to salvation they have no concept of legalism for sanctification you know and so he even gets our position wrong when he says that oh our you know that we say legalists you have to do all these things to add to salvation no that's not what we're saying we're saying you know you follow all these rules to be accepted by god that is legalism all of these extra rules that you put on all these extra standards that aren't in the bible you've got higher standards than god you know not for salvation but for sanctification um and then of course when he gets to the money he jokes about the money oh i'm a legalist when it comes to the money did you gotta tithe um and then he goes into the three to thrive you know and i always you know three to thrive because it it rhymes but he's talking about sunday school sunday morning sunday night wednesday night that's actually four to thrive um but man not anything that the bible prescribes what does he what does he throw back to oh this is the way the presbyterians used to do it this is the way the nazarenes used to do it back in the 50s and the 40s he doesn't appeal to scripture he appeals to tradition and that is just that's on course for a legalist to quote sir brian edwards it is whatever error you overly romanticize and you play over and over in your mind over and over again but i love i love the thought you just said you said legalism and sanctification they don't have a clue in because it's been ingrained to them to say legalism is salvation outside of salvation you can do whatever you want if you want to be an overbearing pastor if you want to be a rules pastor like this is what it's about and oftentimes brett i don't know if you had this when you were coming out of legalism there was someone in your life that helped you that guided you that was a good mentor i had a couple i had john of course he helped me a lot my pastor mitch king was a fantastic pastor to me helped grow me in a massive way when i joined the church where i was at and was on staff there and part of that some of this is even older men that were dead that were in their biographies of books that helped lead me and oftentimes we have to ask ourselves who is it that we are holding the hand to of someone that's struggling and how can we hold their hand when they're struggling to start over when they're struggling when they've been hurt when they don't know when their entire religious structure has been flipped on its head because their eyes have finally been opened how can we help them and oftentimes they'll hear something similar to this uh and it's so confusing because music is such a big thing and we're going to play a music clip here in a minute and uh this is uh some guy i don't even know if his name is either if it's mentioned uh but it's talking about music and and listen to this is this this isn't cody zorn i don't know who it is some of the music we're letting pile into our churches is an abomination to god psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody in your heart to the lord hey that i'm talking about we will return to the beginning i remember when preachers preached to get country music and the truth of the matter is country music don't even resemble what country music used to be i remember when preachers preached against tvs and i i know people tell me how tv preachers are out of style youtube ain't netflix ain't why why don't you just tell the truth i'll tell the truth reason we don't have one in our homes because i like it if i had one at my house i'd watch it now i i can't handle a lot of this new stuff i mean i like when the good guy wins i like when the good guy's got a gun i like the good guy when he's got a bunch of friends and they all have guns i like that that's what i like if i was gonna watch it hey buddy i ain't watching this sissy junk i want to see somebody i want well you know what i'm talking about typically tvs are for watching uh brett what i think that was you in the background yelling amen real loud i was i figured you were there uh i wrote that message for him what are you what's your thoughts on that southern gospel music gonna be the downfall of america man i mean legacy five is gonna bring us down the gaithers are gonna tear us apart just but just all preference and no scripture yeah there's no scriptural basis for any of that and that was part of my journey out of legalism is to have this philosophy and have this personal creed if it's not scripture i don't want it right you know you give me scripture don't give me what grandpappy used to do you know we grew up in a time and went to colleges where if you had a cathedrals cd um you got demerits and you got brought before the board but oh the dorm suit that took the cd he could listen to it in his office and it was all fine um just a bunch of preference and and just no scripture in any of it and so that's that's all they've got to stand on it's just their own personal preference and pushing that on others encroaching on other people's uh christian liberty with their own uh with their own convictions and their own their own thinking pushing that on other people keeping people in bondage when they are free in christ and i just don't have any more patience for any of it that's right i i agree with it and uh as much as i love southern gospel i love old hymns and i love new music to get up and to say this and to preach this there's no bible behind it there's no there's no scripture based behind it and we're going to play a song brett i was sitting in youth camp this past summer in june and last week of june and we're sitting there and you know how if you've been to youth camp before they'll have songs playing as kids come in and the youth camp we go to they play a variety of different i mean they'll play veggie tales they'll play a contemporary song they'll play a country so whatever they're just kids are coming in they're just getting music going well this song came on and it was one of those songs that hit me i don't pay attention to a lot of the songs they're not time anyways i'm i'm corralling kids and i hear it and i'm like dude this is this is awesome and so i have shazam on my watch so i hit shazam and i'm listening to it on my watch and it comes up and i save it and from that point in june until we're recording this now i i think your phone keeps track of how many times you listen to a song you can go and look at it it would probably be in the thousands how many times this song has played on my phone how many times this song has played while i've been driving down the road how many times my kids are like hey dad can we play that song because it's really cool and so we're going to play this we're not going to play this in entirety at one sitting what we're going to do is we're going to play the chorus we're going to talk about it we're going to play the first verse we're going to talk about it play the second verse talk about it we'll do the last chorus as well and i want you to hear the words that this is saying may not be the genre that you're used to it may turn you off a little bit but just try to listen to the words listen to the scriptural meaning to these words as we play this because it is a powerful powerful song uh anything brett before we get started as we play this oh it's a great song i've listened to it since you sent it to me you know a couple weeks ago i've listened to it dozens and dozens of times just repeat listening to the words such great words to this song and it it's a great song yeah and it came out in 2013 think about it never heard before never heard of it it's been almost over 10 years and the guy that's singing it uh the first guy his mom struggled with drug and alcohol abuse and he wanted to get as far away from that as he can he ended up in becoming a believer and he became a christian rapper who wanted to do good in the world and so this is the song called start over by nf everybody's got a blank page a story they're writing today a wall that they're climbing you can carry the past on your shoulders you can start over i'm gonna pause it right there because even listen to it right now it just gets me again you've got a blank page that you can write start writing today you've got a wall that you're climbing you can carry the past on your shoulders or you can start over i would just just think about that you you've got this past that we all have and we're going to talk about that past as well i'm gonna back it up just a minute and play that again while they're climbing you can carry the past on your shoulders you can start over regrets no matter what you've gone through jesus he gave it all to save you he carry the cross on his shoulders you can start over you know every once in a while i find myself doing the same thing i find myself picking up the weight of my past burdens and then i have to remember that i actually gave those to jesus you know the bible says we can cast our cares on him for he cares for us i have to remember that he he carried when he carried the cross he took my sin there was that great exchange where i gave him my sin and he gave me his righteousness but my flesh constantly reminds me of my past and reminds me of of my mistakes but then the spirit reminds me um that my past is under the blood and let me tell you who i think about when i hear this chorus i think about peter when peter denied jesus three times and he was so burdened and weighed down with his mistake and his past and his betrayal that even after having seen the resurrected christ he gave up ministry and went back fishing because he still did not consider himself worthy and it took jesus having a beachside breakfast meal and telling peter three times to feed my sheep it took that to get it into peter's head that his past did not define him and that it was taken care of on the cross and it freed peter up to preach at pentecost and to lead the church you know when our past burdens will keep us from our potential in god's will definitely that that's the great chorus yeah it is i love the the comparison here the first part of the course says you can carry the past on your shoulders and then it talks about how no matter what you've gone through there's jesus he gave it all to save you and he carried the cross on his shoulders what's the reason for that so that you can now begin anew so that you can start over so there can be death to your old life and now resurrection in christ amen uh man it's it's uh just listen that again with you here uh for the first time with me and you again we listen to it separately it's just hitting a different way uh talking through it so let's jump into the first verse man here we go don't let your heart be troubled don't be afraid to the broken hearted that wishes day never been born never been torn never sinned never disobey i know you think there's no hope no but that ain't true jesus i know you feel the regret like i brought this all on myself like i messed it up big time and this time i don't deserve god's help thinking i'll be god forgive me after knowing what i did but i'm gonna stop it again right there man we get to this point where how often are we in this state where we go through everything we're we've disobeyed we've sinned jesus is there he saves then it says this line messed it up big time and this time i don't deserve god's help how can he forgive me after knowing what i did man this is a line that we struggle with every day of our life as christians not just before salvation this is every day and even thinking about legalism and how oftentimes we have been in this state and god still says i'm giving you mercy giving you grace and forgiveness you know we have to remember and remind ourselves often of the promises of scripture especially first john 1 9 if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness when we feel like we don't deserve god's help after what we've did and we've stayed away and we've backslid look there are days i get up james i don't feel worthy i feel like a fake i feel like a phony i feel like i'm phoning it in i feel like i don't deserve to be in the position with the people that i'm ministering to i feel like a fraud a lot of the times but you know i have to remind myself that god chose me okay he chose me i'm a part of his plan i'm a part of his will and everything that i've experienced in my life and everything that i've gone through and i'm going through i went through that so i could do his will more effectively you know i've backslidden before and with that backsliddenness and that carnality comes regret and once again we just got to give that to jesus because if we ask for forgiveness we confess our sins to him he is faithful and just to forgive our sins he wants to forgive us he wants to redeem us he wants to comfort us he'll never get tired of welcoming us back he is the father of the prodigal son who jumps off the porch and and runs to meet us halfway down the road and he puts his arms around us and he throws the robe on us he puts the ring on us he kills the fathead calf and he does that every single time we come back to him and he never gets tired of doing it that's exactly right as we finish this first verse up listen to the very last line of this verse it's all on myself like i messed it up big time and this time i don't deserve god's help me after knowing what i did after knowing that i hid from him and i stayed away and backslid listen jesus came for the sick jesus came for the weak jesus came to give good news and set the captives free jesus came for the poor jesus came with the keys jesus came to remove the chains so the prisoners jesus came to remove the chains so that prisoners are released man if that doesn't sum up what the freedom of salvation does for us i don't know what else does he came so that we can be free so that we would no longer be like you said under the yoke of bondage of legalism so that we have the freedom to serve christ and in writing through this line he says he came for the sick he came for the weak he came for the good news he came to give the poor he came with the keys to remove the yoke of bondage and oftentimes we are stuck under that bondage because we like it we don't want to get under out from underneath the bondage and this is where we get to start over you know the grave clothes are comfortable lazarus he was brought back from uh the dead he was alive in those grave clothes but sometimes we get used to those grave clothes because it's familiar to us we feel comfortable in them it's our comfort zone but jesus says hey take those grave clothes off you don't have to hop around tied up anymore i've not only brought you back to life but i've given you freedom you don't have to be bound you can take those grave clothes off sometimes we like to put them back on but jesus says no loosen to take them off that's right all right i'm going to try not to stop the second verse halfway through uh but it's just so good brett oh man ocean floor run to his arms like an open door god the father said the sons of mink come and be free gotta run no more come to me all who are weary with heavy burdens i'll give you rest separating you from your sin as far as the east is from the west thrown in and see a forgetfulness what sin what offense i gotta stop it brett i'm sorry he he says thrown in the sea of forgetfulness what sin what offense and when the waves come crashing in i'll calm the winds in your defense man how powerful is that how powerful is it to know that christ says i don't know any sin that you're talking about when we come to him for forgiveness what are you what are you talking about it it's it's this mind-blowing fact that we have we have betrayed our heavenly father we come to ask for forgiveness and he looks down with mercy and he says i don't know what you're talking about i love you that that that that's the part of the song that i love too he says what offense what what are you talking about what uh you know what sin you know that's literally that's what it's like he forgets our sin it's done with it's cast away he removes it the bible says there therefore is now no condemnation to those who are in christ now i love that about this song yeah all right let's back up listen that and we'll go all the east is from the west thrown in the sea of forgetfulness what sin what offense and when them waves come crashing in now calm the winds in your defense so whatever it is that you've done he put that punishment on his son you'll never come under his condemnation conquersing the satan and his accusation so dry your eyes lift up your head hallelujah god is not dead plus he gave us his peace his peace and he took our guilt on the cross instead took our place and now we embrace a clean slate with the eyes of faith we do we do unfailing love is not too late unfailing love that's not too late to start over how often is it in our life that we go through this mind of bondage of legalism and we think i'm just too far into it i can't start over i'm gonna abandon my friends who's gonna come to me there was some preacher clips i was listening to of one by cody zorn i was talking about how we need to we need to stick with the old stuff and we need to make sure that we we we don't lose the camp we're in and talk about all this tribalism stuff and almost guilted into not leaving because if you do you're gonna make the brethren look bad but man there is this thought of where christ has redeemed us and we don't have to live there and we have this ability that it's not too late to start over well let me tell you something that hit me while you're playing it i didn't think about this before the line where it says he took our guilt on the cross instead what that hit me right then is man he not only took our sin he took the effects of the sin he took what the sin causes you know you throw a rock in the pond and it ripples out well he not only took the rock he took the ripples too that's right he took the sin and he took the guilt that comes with the sin because the sin is gone the guilt is gone as well he takes all of that negative effects on himself and it's just a perfect picture of unfailing love absolutely it is all right we'll play this last course as it finishes up the song and then we'll just sort of do some recap before we jump to the next part a story that i'm writing today a wall that they're climbing you can carry the past you can start over no matter what you go through jesus he gave it all to save you carry the cross and we have that opportunity to start over we have this awesome opportunity to start over from death into life and salvation but also to start over uh if we have been trapped by legalism we oftentimes we look at our past and uh was thinking about this today and as i was getting ready for this we have a past and we want to try to forget our past we don't want to remember it we want to forget it we want to get as far away from our past as we can but i think the true sign and the true thought of leaving legalism is redeeming our past it's understanding that our past has a meaning and our past is there for a reason and then if we didn't have that past we wouldn't be where we were at today we wouldn't be in the place we're at today we wouldn't be in the state we are today and it really takes us to the point of we wouldn't be able to accomplish what we were doing or are doing if the past wasn't there i'm studying through and i'm preaching through the book of jonah right now and uh we're in jonah chapter two this week one of the things i realized when i was studying through it is jonah if he would have stayed on the ship he would have never seen the mercy and judgment of god in the belly of the well and he would have never had the moment to offer that forgiveness if he had stayed on the ship he had to be cast overboard he had to get to the point of his lowest point where he said he was in the bottom of hell in sheol and in that moment he realized god's goodness and forgiveness he repented and said salvation is of the lord but he wouldn't have gotten there if he didn't get thrown overboard and how often is it that we don't want to get thrown overboard and we get to the place where we're comfortable where we're at and so we never leave that place and we never see the forgiveness and the healing that christ offers for us but we have to get thrown overboard in order for that to happen and sometimes in this life that we're in christ says i'm going to ruin some things in your life so that you'll get your eyes back fixed on me so that you can see the offer of forgiveness and mercy that i'm giving you and oftentimes we try to run from that and god says that's what's going to make you who you are and then you're going to be able to redeem that and you're going to be able to use that as part of your story one of the greatest gifts that we have is a testimony and we can use this one of the greatest evangelistic tools that we have at our disposal is our story just like jc says all the time there's power in story each one of us has a story to tell a story of redemption of recovery and just like you said we don't need to run from our past and act like it never happened and put our head in the sand that we don't need to you know as we'll talk about soon get bitter about it uh we need to use it uh use it to help reach people with the gospel he put us through that for a reason there was a reason behind everything and that's the point even the point of being a christian that our suffering has a purpose our suffering has a point we don't go through it for no reason there's a reason behind it there's a divine reason that god put us through what we've been through and that's just what it means to be a christian absolutely well we are going to jump into the the rest of our episode and in the last half of it and talk through uh john came up with this years ago and we're stealing it from him because we're good baptist and we steal things and uh there's the eight stages of leaving legalism and what that looks like and so we're just going to go back and forth i'll read the first one and then brett will give some talk and he'll read the next one and we'll just go through it and these steps are more of progressional steps the first one is the delusionment stage this is the stage where something happens in your life or something is said that causes you to have some type of disillusionment with the environment that you are in causing you to think that not everything may be right the time frames can vary but this will ultimately lead to the next stage and so this is the stage where something happens in your life maybe it's a a sin in church maybe it's a a hurtful moment maybe someone said something to you maybe there was a embezzlement maybe there was a sexual abuse maybe there was someone that hurt your family and it was like for the first time you're seeing this situation that you're in with a different light and this moment is where your your blinders as a horse would have blinders on so we see straight get taken off and now you're able to see the full picture uh it's like the the bible says how you see through a glass darkly but one day we'll see clearly what has actually been revealed it's like this glass that's in front of our eyes gets taken away and we see the full picture and we're like oh wow i can't believe i've been here and this is the first step this is that the disillusionment stage where things begin to uncover and you can begin to see the true picture you know going through these steps step by step um it's just amazing how much they fit my personal situation and all i have to go through is what i've personally experienced and i remember the moment the instant where i was when this disillusionment stage hit me in my journey out of of legalism it wasn't something for me that happened gradually over time it was a way hit me like a brick wall all in one moment in one moment i was completely done i was ready to walk away i was over it um you know it wasn't something that was gradual it hit me all in just one moment and i will say in my own personal story that if i didn't need the money from the church that i was getting at the time i would have walked away completely and that's just me being transparent god's honest truth um but that this when that disillusionment stays when it hits you like it hit me it can really shake you to your core which brings us to stage two called the questioning stage so at some point questions are going to start to arise and there may be a latency period for some to ask the questions mentally but be afraid to verbalize those questions ultimately those questions either do not get answered or answered very inadequately which triggers stage three which we'll get to in just a minute but you know in 100 in my own experience the next step was the questions once the disillusionment hit me you know once i realized the lead my leadership was manipulating me for their own benefit that's when it hit me you know what else am i being lied to about what what else you know isn't real and i began to question everything from the music standards to the dress standards to the bible standards and it began to question everything you know i internalized a lot of that at the time and i didn't have anybody to ask those questions to or get answers from uh but it definitely led me to start questioning everything yeah absolutely uh the questioning side is the side that we all begin to get to at some point or another whether we want to acknowledge it or not there's a story here i'm going to read it it came to my mind and i wanted to get the exact details down but as a boy this young boy decided to he was at a lutheran church he was going with his parents at age 13 he went to his pastor and he said does god know everything the pastor answered yes god knows everything the little boy then pulled out a magazine of life magazine and it depicted a children in africa that were starving and he said does not god know about this the pastor answered i know you don't understand but yes he knows about this this little boy then answered and declared that he did not want to worship a god and walked out of the church and never went back at age 13 this little boy's name was steve jobs this guy uh he he started a small little company that we know as apple uh incorporated macintosh and i want you to think about he began to question things as a 13 year old boy and the pastor couldn't give him the answers and he left that religion he left that church never stepped foot back in church and went to buddhist muslims zionist chinese really all these different religions to try to find the answer never found the answer to life and as far as we know died and is in hell right now but could you imagine if steve jobs would have got the answer that in that moment that yes god loves you and this is because of sin we've all sinned and unfortunately this pastor whoever it was will always be his case where he never was able to give an answer and when we have questions we're going to find the answer one way or another whether we like it or not which begins to leave us to the third stage which is the leaving stage this is the point where the individual realizes they are no longer belong or agree with the religious community or cult they begin to make efforts to leave that group in more toxic environments their questionings or efforts may be met with a group actually moving to expel them therefore attempting to maintain a moral high ground with remaining members this is the uh all right they're not they're they're going a different way than we are and so instead of letting them quit we're going to fire them and we're going to excommunicate them or we're going to get them out of the our group because they aren't necessarily uh going to create this environment to to fit my need and they're going to talk have a toxic influence on my leadership and what i want and so we are going to get rid of them instead of that pastor saying hey let's work through this let's talk through this let's figure out how we can work at this through this through it with a graceful manner brett you know i i really see that that pastors with this type of mindset and in legalism they care more about their work than they care about the people and i was shelved so many times and when i needed help because the work was more important than me and how i wish i had a pastor who cared about me and put me above his work and i've mentioned this several times before but it keeps coming back to my mind i remember jack hows i heard him say these words my own ears he said i will never put uh my people above my work uh well i'll never put my work above my people put my people by work above my work and man i i felt like that's just such a big lie it's so phony um i remember this when this situation when it comes to the leaving stage i remember you know sending out resumes and i've already been chewed out for sending out resumes um but now you know i didn't tell anybody that i was doing it now i was just so desperate uh to get out i was sending resumes out not telling anybody i didn't say anything to anybody until i had a place to go um but you know i've been there for this leaving stage and i tried to keep it under wraps or else i would have been excommunicated i would have been kicked out um and of course that leads to stage four which is the grieving stage and as strange that may sound to outsiders for those leaving did have relationships and many many positive memories within that religious community and the feeling feelings of loss will begin to set in i do not feel wrong or guilty when experiencing these feelings instead process them uh for they are proper and i definitely experienced that that sense of loss you know after i left uh my church and went to my next church it wasn't long after i went to that church that the pastor at my previous church resigned because it come out he is having an affair with a church member so that pastor was gone so i did have that mourning period where i really missed the people of the church the people that i grew up with um because listen those people that i grew up with they loved the lord and they taught me a lot and even today i would i would give the shirt off my back if they if they wanted me to so what i started doing after i left and after that pastor was gone as i started going activities at the church i'd go there on sunny nights because they didn't have uh the church i was going to didn't have sunday night service i would go to funerals receptions of old church and i did that until the pastor said brett you know every time i you'd turn around you're here and i kind of got a little mad at him for saying that that's why i quit going but there was that period of loss and mourning where i'm even though i i was abused at that church by the leadership i really missed the people i grew up with and the people that taught me growing up that loved the lord there was that grieving that i had to go through absolutely and before we get to number five i will say this each of these stages you're going to spend a different amount of time in the disillusionment may be a year two years your grieving may only last for a week your it may last for a year it may last for three years like there's no set time of how long we're going to be in a specific stage and don't be alarmed if you go back into one of those stages it's not like once i leave and once i finish my grieving i'm never going to come back to grieving i'm never going to have a moment where i remember remembered of a of a friend those relationships that i had there and all of a sudden that friendship is broken be there there are these times where we go back in and out of these stages which leads us to the next one the education stage this state very widely for some but many may have a blended this stage with the questioning stage but at this moment the individual will begin to read listen and study what is actually and truly right moral and biblical way of doing things this can happen rapidly or it can happen slowly but inevitably will begin to lead to the next stage and this education stage is is a tough stage for me i remember very clearly going through uh the king james only that was the first issue that was the biggest issue that was preached and so i wanted to deep dive and so i watched the anchorberg debate it was like a three-hour debate and i just watched it two or three times and began to deep dive into what scripture is what is true scripture and why do we believe the king james is the only one and this was the beginning of my education stage like i began there and then i said okay well if that's not right what else isn't right and i began to dissect each and every belief that i had until i had this firm foundation of what i truly believe based on scripture but it is a biblical questioning stage of saying what is it and how can i get what what does the bible say about this issue and get to the heart of that issue it's amazing you say that these these stages take different time periods because i was just thinking my disillusionment stage it took a week it took a week for me to go from that to questioning it didn't take long at all but this education stage took me a long time it took me a long time to unlearn so much of what i've learned i'd be in my new church and i'd still be you know playing mute worship music without drums and still preaching king james and still this is years after i had left legalism after i left the ifb and so this education stage it took a long time for me to get to but really what started my journey was the rfp it was mike winger i've said that in my testimony on this podcast before um i listened to mike winger on things like alcohol and the king james bible and music and really re-educated me about what the bible actually says the rfp helped me realize what legalism was i thought legalism was just for salvation i learned what legalism for sanctification was you know people attempting to live the christian life through their own strength and following laws that aren't in the bible instead of fully relying on the holy spirit so this education stage it took me oh it took me a while to get through which brings us to stage six which is the anger stage you know realizing that you have been taught wrongly led in errant paths and because of this even led others down the wrong path will cause in most feelings of anger to rise many outsiders interpret this to be bitterness but do not be alarmed it is not bitterness although it can lead to bitterness this is the point in the journey will bring you into a fork in the road however because choosing how you will handle this proper anger can lead you into bitterness or lead you into healing and you listen i didn't get very angry over this stuff and that i was taught wrong and done wrong and you know to be honest maybe i was a little bitter um i like to think i worked through my bitterness and and i worked through my anger and i chose the right fork but you will get angry you know about this kind of stuff what you've been through you tricked lied to manipulated for me it was just a straight manipulation for me that really really uh made me angry yeah the anger stage is one that i never really experienced uh my wife did more than i did my wife got really angry at the past and some of our former uh churches a church that we were at when we left legalism and man it was tough for her it was tough for me to work through that with her uh but it was this ultimate sign of when she saw the other side and the healing came that's where the anger began to go away that the the healing stage or the bitter stage this is where there's this fork we're either gonna have anger and get bitter and live in bitterness which is where we see a lot of people right now they're angry they get bitter and they never get over what someone did to them or there's anger and healing which is the healing bitterness the next phase will be very important it's probably the most important phase in our journey because we at this moment when we get to this moment where we begin to have anger and we begin to get frustrated we begin to lash out it begins to affect our spirit begins to affect our mind and we can't think right this is where we strongly encourage you find someone that you can talk to a biblical counselor a church community someone where you can have a small group of believers and you can just voice where you're going through and you can say listen i'm struggling i need help don't be afraid to do that find a good biblical counselor find someone that you can go to and maybe that's me maybe that's brett maybe that's someone close to you where you can just voice some of these concerns it's a weekly basis where i am answering direct messages i'm answering text messages my phone number's out there you you can give me a call a text anytime and and i'm going to help you through this journey because we don't want you to live in that bitterness we want you to have that healing so that you can do like that that just song just we just played have a fresh page to start over have a fresh page where you can begin anew and you don't have to live in the hurt that you have experienced and the bitterness that you may have felt and so ultimately that brings us to the last stage brett you know healing and bitterness when you were talking it reminded me about somebody that really helped me through this stage of my life and it was my mom's pastor and his name is dr dave hartson um he was my mom's pastor and i grew up knowing him even though i went to a different church but when i left uh legalism he became my pastor even though i wasn't going to his church he really helped me through this stage he taught me what church was really like how pastors are really supposed to act he helped me through it he was there when i needed him to call on he was he was a professional psychologist as well as a pastor like he was a you know he was a legit doctor of psychology and uh psychiatry and um he was a pastor as well and i just remember our long conversations i remember us sitting in his office office carport at his home he really helped me process what i've been through of course and um you know he went to be with the lord a year ago and i really appreciate the investment that he made in my life and then of course that brings us to stage eight which is the helping stage it's the final stage in this process is the final stage the culmination of all your experience and at this point you will learn it is god's divine purpose for you to experience for you experiencing the hurts that you've been through and that is as tony evans has put it to use the good the bad and the ugly of your life to help others in their situation and point them to the love and grace of our savior your full circle moment is when we get to use it to help somebody else you know i've had that the opportunity to counsel people um and talk to many people who are experiencing coming out of legalism coming out of cult mentality and through this through this podcast through social media uh that i've been able to do through the rfp connections people have reached out to me they dm'd me and i've had the opportunity to help them process their journey out of legalism and help other people with my experiences and just like you said not forgetting my story but redeeming my story and helping them process what they've been through it's such a blessing to be able to help people and that's the purpose of this god puts us through this so that he can put us in the path of somebody else and help that person absolutely i was uh when we were in bourbon at the meetup there was a moment where uh we me and john ran into a guy that uh was was at a church that was very legalistic if i said the name you would know it i'm not going to just because i don't want to give details and there was a moment where we we looked over and we realized we had actually interviewed this young lady on our podcast at that time and um at the meetup and i said hey man she is the granddaughter of the pastor of your church that you grew up in and he said it helped me to understand that everything i had done up in this point i saw one fruit of it in person and it was the granddaughter of the abusive pastor that i had and we were able to connect him with her and it was a really really cool moment because we get to see this full circle moment of us doing what we do to help others it's not to help myself it's not to to to say look at me i'm this part of this uh this little podcast that reaches a couple people but it's to help someone that's been struggling because ultimately second corinthians says it like this second corinthians 1 verses 3 through 7 blessed be god the father of our lord jesus christ the father of mercies the god of all comfort who comforts us in all of our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any kind of affliction through the comfort which we ourselves receive from god for just as the sufferings of christ overflows to us so also through christ our comfort overflows if we are afflicted it is for your comfort and salvation if we are comforted it is for your comfort which produces the patience to endure the same sufferings as we suffer and our hope for you is firm because we know that you share in the sufferings so that you will also share in the comfort we go through these things to share with others to help them in their journey so that they can see healing and help in their journey and so oftentimes we try to push this away we try to push and bury the hurt and the bitterness and the anger and because we bury it we no longer get to help anyone else we live in that we live in that guilt we live in that remorse and we can get through that and we can push through that moment we begin to see the hope and the help that the gospel brings and so that today as we've talked through this starting over that maybe you just need to be reminded of this maybe you know someone that you want to share this with uh we want to help them if we can uh that song again is start over by flame featuring nf and uh again i don't know anything about either one of those two guys i just know that song has been powerful for me uh and what we're going to do is we're going to close the episode by playing that song in its entirety and uh we'll put a link to it to to youtube and you can go listen to it as well the music is phenomenal uh we hope you go and watch it as well so brett any final thoughts i'm just thankful to be here i'm thankful to have an opportunity uh to help people um i'm thankful that the lord brought me out of where i was uh trapped in legalism and man-made rules and preferences into the freedom of christ that the gospel brings that's what i'm here to do man i am here to to celebrate the freedom that we have in christ and uphold his word and his scripture and i'm thankful to get an opportunity to do that amen love it if we can ever do anything for you let us know our website is for freedom podcast.com and uh until next time to god not the pastor be the glory everybody's got a blank page a story they're writing today a wall that they're climbing you can carry the past on your shoulders you can start over regrets no matter what you've gone through jesus he gave it all to save you he carried the cross on his shoulders so you can start over don't let your heart be troubled don't be afraid to the brokenhearted that was just bad never been born never been torn never sinned never disobeyed i know you think there's no hope no but that ain't true jesus saved i know you feel a regret like i brought this all on myself like i messed it up big time and this time i don't deserve god's help thinking how can god forgive me after knowing what i did after knowing that i heard from him and i stayed away and backslid listen jesus came for the sick jesus came for the weak jesus came to give good news and it set the captives free jesus came for the poor jesus came with the keys jesus came to remove the chains so the prisoners everybody's got a blank page a story they're writing today a wall that they're climbing you can carry the past on your shoulders you can start over regrets no matter what you've gone through jesus he gave it all to save you and carry the cross on his shoulders so he can start over see his love is deeper than the ocean floor run to his arms like an open door god the father sent the sun so men can come and be free and gotta run no more come to me all who are weary with heavy burdens i'll give you rest separating you from your sin as far as the east is from the west thrown in a sea of forgetfulness what sin what offense and when them waves come crashing in now calm the winds in your defense so whatever it is that you've done he put that punishment on his son you'll never come under his condemnation conquer sin and satan and his accusations so dry your eyes lift up your head hallelujah god is not dead plus he gave us his peace his peace and he took our guilt on the cross instead took our place and now we embrace a clean slate with the eyes of faith we know unfailing love unfailing love is not too late start off start off a story that's a story that's right and today a wall that they're climbing you can carry the past on your shoulders you can start over regrets no matter what you've gone through jesus he gave it all to save you carry the cross on his shoulders so you can start overtle Found that good grace, found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. Found that second chance, found my best friend. Found my forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast.

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