193. Origins of the Podcast, Writing a Book , and Is Smoking Cigars a Sin - Special Guest Jon Hollifield - 100,000 Downloads
Episode Notes
In this episode of 4 Freedom Podcast, we sit down and discuss Jon Hollfiled to discuss how the podcast started, what is was like writing the book, and we do a deep dive into the health of cigars.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Theme
For freedom, he set me free, not for chains, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory justified, released.
Welcome to the 4-Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues.
I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code.
Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math.
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting.
I don't know I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory justified, released. I don't know I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory justified,
released. I don't know I'm puffing peace, I don't know I'm puffing peace, I don't know I'm puffing peace, I don't know I'm puffing peace. Now, here are your hosts, James Safrit and Brett Martin.
Welcome back to the 4-Freedom Podcast. What a great time it is to be here with you today. Special episode today.
Special guest for us. Brett is at his convention, and so he's not going to be able to be here to talk with us. And so I brought in an old friend who's here with me doing revival this week at our church and a live episode here for you today. I'm excited about this.
John, here back from the grave. It took a sabbatical from the podcast for a year and a half now, and we've pulled him back out.
We threw a life jacket at him and said, hey, how's things going? And so he's back with us today. John, tell us how life has been going since you've been going away from the podcast. Life has been going since I left the podcast. Well, it's been going.
And it's been ministry and pastoring and all those different things. But, yeah, it's been good. Tell us about pastoring. How has that been, man? Yeah.
You're not used to being on a podcast, are you? Yeah, I don't know. Pastoring has been in the – it's – you know, James, you do it. You've been – that's an interesting question. It's something I've been thinking about, actually,
a lot lately. Because you've been in the senior pastor role for how many years now? Two years now. Just celebrated two years since Mitch resigned. And I sort of took over some admin roles there for a while.
Challenges in Ministry
That was five years ago. Okay. Four and a half years ago. Me and you both have been doing ministry for, like, you know, since college. Yeah, 15 years for me. 15, 16, to 20 years. Yeah. And while ministry has its challenges, it's different, right? And definitely joys.
I think the one thing that I wasn't – I didn't realize was the jump of senior – of, like, what we call senior pastoring, all right, being that – the difference in it. Yeah. There is a difference. It's hard to articulate.
And maybe I'm just on an island by myself over here. I don't know if you feel the same way. But there is a difference. There is a difference. And it seems much simpler when you could sit back and say, this is how things should be done. And then sometimes think,
well, if I was doing it, I would do it this way.
To now you're the one and everything comes to you. Yeah.
Almost like you know how to solve the problems when they're actually not there or you don't have to give the final say.
But then once the actual final say is there, it's like, oh, this is a little harder than I thought.
Yeah, and you're taking into account, okay, like all the ramifications when you make a decision or you make a choice or you do a certain thing like how it's going to affect this, how it's going to affect this, who's going to like it, who's not going to like it, those types of things.
So there's a different weight to it. There's a different thing that I'm still learning and navigating.
And there's a healthy balance, I think, between – you don't want to go one direction to where you're just a politician trying to please everybody.
But at the same time, you don't want to go to the totally other extreme saying, this is the way I'm going to do things, you know, get on board or get run over. You know what I mean? So it's like – so there's that aspect to it.
And then there's the spiritual weight aspect too. You know, this is – as Hebrews talks about, this is a watch care. You're given the watch care over souls. And so I think that if you take that seriously, then, yeah, there's a weight that comes to it. But it's fun.
It's also – there's a great enjoyment to it. So I don't want to start off by saying like, oh, man, it's so hard. But it's a good – you know, I enjoy it. It's a good time. One of the things you said reminded me of when I first got here at Pleasant Grove.
We were talking with some ladies about Bible school. And I had asked like, okay, well, what are we going to do this or what curriculum or something along those lines of what are we going to do? And the ladies looked at me and said, well, you're the pastor. You tell us.
Up until this point, every decision I could pass off and say, well, you know, let so-and-so make that decision.
Or, you know, let's ask this person. But there was no one to ask. I was the guy in that moment that I had to ask because I'm the guy that's making that decision. So it was quite of a different turn in that sense.
You're here preaching revival. Yeah. Enjoying that with you this week. Have enjoyed the fellowship that we've had together. How are – all right, John, so how are things with revival going?
How have you enjoyed your time here for the last couple of days as you drove in Sunday night? And we've been able to preach a little bit. I did chapel this morning at St. Phil Christian School.
And just tell me how things are going, man. Yeah, it's a good time. We've had a blast so far. Panthers lost on Sunday. Panthers lost. A lot of people lost. Yeah, yeah. Dolphins won, baby. Oh, my goodness.
Yeah, it's – we got to watch some football and spend some time together. So it's been a good time. And preached on Psalm 23 last night.
I'm going to be going to Isaiah 6. I think the theme is restore. And so we've talked about restore your soul. Restore your worship is tonight. And then I'm going to lead that into restoring your home. And so, yeah, looking forward to it. And just exciting.
Good time to – you know, in the busyness and the hustle and bustle to sort of have a moment to stop.
And focus on the Word of God and worship and that kind of thing. And so these times, these events, these meetings are always a good time. And, yeah, absolutely love hanging out and enjoying our time together. Yeah.
Well, a couple of questions we got for you. Five years ago, five and a half years ago, you decided to start a little podcast called the 4-Freedom Podcast.
What caused you to start that? Some of our listeners are new listeners from when you started it five years ago, people that you don't even know that have reached out to us. Why did you start it?
Did you ever think it would be at this point of where it's at? And what's your thoughts on that? Yeah. Okay.
So did I ever think it? Let me try to take this in order. Okay. All right.
Five years ago. All right. Why did I start it and that kind of thing? It was definitely started in the context of what was going on at the time. All right. So, number one, COVID was going on, right? I mean, COVID, as everybody knows, it slowed everything down.
Everybody was sort of taking a step back. You know, there was things coming.
People were working from home, all of this stuff. So, not a lot of stuff was going on. Things had slowed down. So, one aspect of it was there was time.
There was time to do this kind of thing. And, you know, me and you are the type of people that we don't like sitting still. We like to be busy and doing something productive. So, that's one aspect of it.
Leaving the IFB Movement
Another aspect of it is this as well. Because at the time, I had – we had left the IFB. So, this podcast talks a lot about the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement.
I mean, you just got through doing a series, right? You did a series. Yeah, we did the Foundations of Fundamentalism.
We sort of picked back up from where you left off years ago. You went up to Jack Howes and a couple of those forefathers. So, we just picked up from there and sort of followed the trail of after Jack Howes, The Crown, the guys that sort of continued that legacy.
Bob Jones, Bob Gray, those guys. And now we're looking at the future of Fundamentalism. We've looked at Eric and West Coast.
We'll be looking at Charlie Clark and some of those other guys that are on the scene now of the future of Fundamentalism.
Yeah, so it's no secret that that has – that is our past and that is a relevant part of what the podcast is about. But at the time, 2020, I had left the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement in 2013. So, it had been seven years.
In my mind, I was – there was no going back. I had grown in areas of theology at the time and had really definitely sealed a lot of areas where I believed completely differently than them. And then heard an interview through the Preacher Boys podcast. And I was like, huh.
And I guess if you want to use this term, it awoke or it brought out things that I think that I hadn't processed maybe.
Or I don't want to say dealt with, but I hadn't processed. I hadn't worked through them. I was just – I was in a mode of just growing like drinking from a fire hydrant.
And I'd never stopped and slowed down and thought through what we had been taught, what we had experienced, and that kind of stuff in fundamentalism.
And where to categorize that and where to place that. So, you combined the extra time with COVID. You then do that. I go and do an interview with Eric Skorzynski on the Preacher Boys podcast and hear more and more about people talking about this and talking about this.
And I'm thinking at the time, man, some of these people haven't had – haven't gone through the seven years that I've gone through. And they need help going through this.
So, I don't know if that was a little bit of an arrogant thing. It was born out of a heart of wanting to help, but – and I was in the middle, too, of training for counseling. So, I think a lot of that sort of played into it.
Starting the Podcast Journey
And I thought, well, why don't I throw my hat in the ring with a podcast and just talk to people? I honestly thought,
okay, if 30 to 50 people would listen to it, then, yeah, man, I could help somebody.
In fact, I actually had a criteria. I don't know if I ever told you this. But I had laid out this that I was going to do 10 episodes.
And if by the end of 10 episodes I had not gotten past 100 downloads, I'd just wrap it up.
I consider it like this ain't happening. This ain't going nowhere. Nobody's listening. This was sort of a failed experiment. And, of course, that didn't happen.
I'm not saying it blew up. It didn't blow up. It wasn't like a massive success or anything like that. But it was definitely more than 100 people after 10 episodes.
It was definitely – each episode was getting up to 300 to 400 to 500 downloads.
And then by the time we were – about the time you came on and those types of things, we were getting 1,000 downloads an episode. So it seemed like definitely something that people were looking for at the time. Yeah.
Of course, I was – I have to be honest. I think I was processing things as well.
So I dare say if you go back and listen to the beginning episodes, I might be a little bit more antagonistic. I might be a little bit more emotional. I might be a little bit more like, oh, ready to go to battle a little bit. But my thing,
I thought – so you had the RFP going. You had the Preacher Boys podcast going. We know how the Preacher Boys podcast, the direction it went. You know, Eric Swarzynski ended up apostatizing from the faith. And that's not a – listen, that's not trying to, like,
tear him down or anything. That's just a literal – that's a literal definition of the term of somebody who leaves the faith. Use words when they have meaning. And so that goes there.
And while he was doing abuse, it felt like the RFP guys were trying to handle things a little bit sort of from a ministry point, his perspective, and that kind of thing.
And my thinking was trying to approach it from a little bit more of bringing the two together, addressing the abuse, but understanding that the abuse also has ties to a theological understanding.
And that is that those who do it are – those who do those types of things do those types of things either because they haven't been changed in their heart by the gospel or that they have very faulty theological belief. And they are – you know, what they're doing is sinful.
And their theology is actually not having an effect on their sinful hearts and the way that they treat people. But then also some of the theological problems that I believe still exist in some of the IFP circles. And so we did episodes on the King James-only-ism.
We did episodes on preaching. We did episodes a little bit, I think, on – some on the church. And then we got into talking about counseling and that kind of thing. So, yeah, what was – the original question was, why did I start it?
Yeah, why did you start it? So I started it because I wanted to speak into that area. You became woke.
You used the term if you wanted to listen to it. I awoken. I did not – You was awoken. Oh, my goodness. Which just simply means he became woke and needed to share some things, right?
Listen to him. I love it. I love it. Listen to him. Your words, not mine. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
So – That's why y'all kicked me off of the podcast. John was getting woke. That's the real reason. The truth has come out.
If you notice, right when John left, we did a whole series on wokeness in the church. We had to set everything straight. To address the issues of John and where he was going. We had to set everything straight. Absolutely.
Hey, so I pulled up the analytics just a little bit. So the one we use is Podcasters for Spotify.
And today, at the time of this recording, we're like 20 downloads shy of 100,000 downloads.
So when this comes out, we'll have 100,000 downloads, which is a huge milestone for the podcast five years in. I would have hoped that we would have got it a little sooner.
Podcast Growth and Popularity
But as I just look at analytics and look at things, that's a huge thing. Thoughts on that? 100,000 downloads. Would you have thought five years ago that 100,000 people – not 100,000 people, but 100,000 clicks to listen to our episode would have been there? No. No. Not at all. 100,000.
I don't even know what that means. Yeah. Yeah, so that's pretty crazy.
I almost sort of see a little – I don't know. There's a part of me that's a little scary. It's like, oh, no. Like, have I said dumb things?
You know, it's out there. But, no, I hope that some of that is true biblical and true gospel help that has helped people. And that's, you know, in another way that's really cool. Yeah. I pulled up the episode rankings. I wanted to talk top five episodes. According to downloads.
Not necessarily our top five episodes.
Number one episode, top download is episode number 22. It was the King James Onlyism part one. Really? That's number one? That is the number one with 1,600 downloads plus that. Number two goes to Amy Miller.
I say this often. Amy, she came on – We talked about modesty. Biblical modesty. IFB modesty versus biblical modesty, episode 31. One, and that's got 15 – over 1,500.
And that's one of those theological topics. Yeah. Right? Because one of the biggest problems was – and listen, modesty is a good thing. And I think we addressed that in the episode. Modesty is a biblical thing. But there's a big misunderstanding of what modesty is and the emphasis based on modesty.
And what ends up happening is that modesty becomes what some dude claims is his standard of modesty. And they leave it with a theological, biblical understanding and interpretation of what it teaches about modesty.
So, yeah, that's cool. Number three, top three episodes so far was the fourth episode you did, The History of the IFB Part 1, J. Frank Norris, The Response to the Abuse at Hopewell Baptist Church.
Yeah, that was when I was like doing – I was looking at current events too. So, I put that in the title because, I mean, people would listen to that in the first part of it.
They're probably going to be like, what is he talking about? But then you get into the history part of it. And that was something that I'd done. Man, I'd done so much research.
It was difficult too because not a whole lot had been written about the IFB that we knew.
Yeah, yeah. And trying to find research about that, you know, there's a lot about the fundamentalism movement as a whole. But the pocket of independent fundamental Baptists, it was difficult.
So, I'd probably – I can't – I read, I'd say, six to seven books, a couple of doctoral dissertations.
And so, that was just sort of like all that building up. And I've got to tell somebody.
So, I was just sort of categorized it and threw it out there. Episode number – top fourth episode, and we'll just do this four and five, was episode number 16.
I had just come on to the podcast. Yeah, I was just on the podcast as a full-time host because we get paid full-time to do this. So, yeah. Was the interview with Nathan Gravatt. Aren't you just bitter? Okay, yeah, yeah.
And that's always a big thing, right? Well, that was – so, right there at the early part, right? The RFP was going.
They were about half a year to a year in. Of course, Eric at the time doing the Preacher Boys podcast was getting hammered with this like crazy because he was doing like exposing abuse stuff.
And then I was getting this as well with some of the stuff that I was doing. And that was the main criticism, the only reason you're criticizing is because you're bitter.
And it's like, okay, well, let's examine that for a second. And so, me and Nathan – I got Nathan to come on and do an interview who was a co-host of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. And we talked about bitterness.
And I think that that's – that probably – while some of those other ones were informational and theological, I think that one was probably – has helped a lot of people. And that one, we released a video interview of that on YouTube.
And it's one of our highest performing YouTube videos that we have. Not that we have a whole massive YouTube audience, but – We're catching up with Mr. Beast. We're trying to get there.
And then the fifth episode is the history of the IFB part five, Jack Howells. And that was episode number eight that you did. Top – the first eight out of ten episodes there, August 1st of 2020 is when that came out. And, yeah, so just people are interested in that.
We could go down the line here and look at some other things that you did with Matthew Lyon. Another Nathan Cravat when he had that debate recap.
But just a lot of great things that we've had the opportunity of been a part of and just cool things that people – interviews guys that we had come on that we never thought we'd have come on. I think back to the interview that I got to do with the music guy.
He plays the piano, T4G. John Tesh? No. Lang Lang? No. Your piano guy. The piano guys?
No. Bob Coughlin. Bob Coughlin. Bob Coughlin. Bob Coughlin. Okay, yeah. Sovereign Gaste Music. Oh, man. I sent him an email. And, you know, I just said, hey, we're doing a podcast. We're talking about biblical view of music.
We deal with the Independent Fundament of Baptist and legalism. And he emailed me back and said, I normally don't do interviews. But I find your topic so interesting. Because I deal with the Independent Fundamental Baptist and the legalism in my music often with even songwriters and people come in.
And we just had a fantastic interview. So just interviews like that that have just come up from the podcast and people have been able to talk to Jim Neuheiser several times. Christina Chappell several times.
It's just been great over the years. Yeah. So you mentioned a couple of names. Preacher Boys. When this thing started, there were a couple of podcasts.
We sort of joked around last night about it. Preacher Boys Podcast.
He's a post-ize. We're part of the RFP network. It's now no longer in existence. The RFP. The episodes are out. But the RFP is no longer there. JC's taking that in a different direction with the new Following the Way podcast. And then there was the church split that split.
And so ironically in their name, that has happened. But the 4 Freedom has stayed strong. Which the church split is still going. It's still going. Preacher Boys is still going. Yeah. It's just.
Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you this and then we'll just sort of see where the conversation goes after this. Did you ever think when you started this podcast five years ago that you would have your name on the front of a book and you publish a book with me five years later?
No. Hold on just a second. Let me grab one of these. As you know, James, I'm a big time reader.
But I don't think I ever thought I would write a book. I don't like writing.
But I think I said something last night at the church that like, you know, if you give James an idea, he'll execute it. And so we tossed around this thing.
And why don't we talk about the book just for a second? Yeah. Because I don't think we ever have done an episode about the book. You've advertised the book. Talk about it. We've never talked about what's in the book. Yeah. And this was sort of a brainchild that we threw out there.
And then we did an episode on it. But the book is not the exhaustive work on spiritual abuse. It's not that. It's actually just a very small, what did it come to?
Writing About Spiritual Abuse
70, 78 pages. Yeah. Yeah. Treatment. Basically, looking at what someone goes through when they are leaving maybe a spiritually abusive situation, a church, legalism, a legalistic environment,
church, that kind of thing. And so we walk through these things, and we do categorize them as stages, even though we say in the introduction that they actually may not occur in these clean stage forms. Yeah. But we just sort of walk through in the book. And so you have the disillusionment.
I had a James there. You get it. You can spit it out. Disillusionment, and then which leads to questioning,
which can lead to, all right, then you leave. But then after you leave, there will be a grieving time.
And then. Well, and even at that point, when you say leaving, still the RFP fam is out there, the page, and what a great resource that is.
But even this week, there were several people that said, my eyes have finally been opened. I'm leaving. I've resigned.
I've pulled my kids from the school. What resources are out there to help me? Because I feel like I'm just so lonely right now. Because my whole spiritual life is just up in arms.
And so this is part of this. Right when you leave, you don't know what. You're leaving a family, a community of people that you've poured your life into. They've poured their life into you. And it's difficult. It's hard.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I think that it causes grieving. Yeah. It causes grieving. And so, therefore, in the grieving, you are also, probably through all of it, disillusionment, questioning, leaving, grieving, you're in the middle of that getting educated.
You're learning. You're looking. You're researching. So we have the education stage. And the thing is, it's a natural human tendency, I think, that whenever you learn more about what is right and then learn that you have been either duped or, in some instances, flat out lied to about what is
wrong, then that can breed anger. Right. And so we have a section in there about anger. And all of the things, we don't just sit there and say, hey, this is what you go through. Isn't it bad?
Yeah. Isn't it? But what the intention of the book, that you do a good job in here, and James is the one that formatted it and then put a lot of the scripture references in there to many scripture references.
I'm normally the type of person that leans into one and just focuses on one, and James loaded it up with quite a bit. But, and that is, like, we put gospel truth throughout this to say, whatever you're at,
hey, there's truth here. There's gospel understanding in each of these. And so from the anger we go to, all right, so are you supposed to stay there? Yeah. And that's the thing.
It was never supposed to stay there. Yeah. Whether it was the RFP, whether it was any of this stuff, whether it's someone that actually went through physical abuse and they're hurting, you are never supposed to stay there. Mm-hmm. The intention is for you to heal. Okay?
And the intention is for you to grow. Okay? And so then you have the chapter seven on the fork in the road and the healing or bitterness, and then there's a purpose in it. Yeah.
And what is the purpose? It's where we close up the book by talking about, yeah, what are you going to do? Are you going to keep that to yourself or are you going to go help others? Yeah.
And that's the beautiful part of that is you get to help other people and you get to see their eyes open and the freedom of the gospel in their life.
And that's what we're built to be in relational communities with other people.
And it's just a great thing to do that. So, yeah, I didn't plan to talk through the book like that, but I appreciate you doing it. If you haven't picked up the book, it's on Amazon. $10 for the paperback, $15 for the hardback.
And we've got some opportunities here soon to be able to get that resource out into more hands.
And so I'm excited about a grant that we just got to share that resource with a lot of people and churches. But to go back to your original question, I was going to write a book. Yeah. I don't know. I still don't know.
We have this. This is here. But I struggle with it because I have about four or five other book ideas that are in my mind. But I just can't bring myself to writing.
I'm not a writer. Yeah. And so writing it. So I don't know if I'll ever do another one. May not. But there are ideas there.
Well, the podcast sort of started with you wanting to write a book about the IFB. Right. Exactly. And that's where a lot of the historical research of the movement came. I actually did write three chapters to it. It exists on my computer in a file way. An unreleased book.
An unreleased book of John. Buried deep. That's one of those, the Library of Spurgeon, the unreleased book of Spurgeon. And they find his computer back in his cave. I don't know. That might be something to send to you. No. Those first chapters.
And make it a mini book of maybe just a historical overview. Yeah. I don't know. You heard it first. We're talking out loud. There you go. We're talking out loud.
But I'll tell you one idea that I got swimming around in my head is something on contentment. Yeah. I did a series at our church last year. No. This year. Beginning, yeah, first January of this year.
And it was born out of reading a Puritan work by a guy named Thomas Watson on the art of divine contentment. And I've read the book twice. And it just blew me away.
And I just thought, man, this is such a big deal. And I don't know. I just can't get away. It keeps coming back. Like, I should turn that into something. So, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe never will happen.
Who knows? You never know. But you never know what you'll hear here on the 4-Freedom Podcast.
Hey. You let me know. Hold on. Hold on. If anybody's listening and they would be interested. There you go. In a short, like, 30-page booklet form of, like, a historical overview of the IFP, let James know.
That's right. And if James gets enough requests, maybe we can see if we can put something together. Absolutely.
You can reach out to me on Messenger. My number, my phone number's out there in, like, 400 different places because I get 20 spam calls a day. You can do that.
Let me know if you want this to happen, and we'll see what we can do. John, we started a little cigar company a year ago. Well, you did.
I did. Me and Brett did. And Brett is, he's at, like I said earlier, he's at a convention right now. He's not going to be with us. I miss him. And, Brett, if you're listening, we love you, and we wish you were on the podcast right now. We love Emily more. Yeah.
Emily's great. So, had the idea. I've had the idea. I've always wanted my own cigar for years.
Launching a Cigar Company
And then the idea came to, the opportunity, I should say, came to launch our own company and be under the 1689 Cigar Company brand. We've sold, I don't know, probably 400 or 500 cigars in a year for a startup. That's really good.
I'm hoping to expand out to some lounges next year, build a couple more things out. John, did you think, as your little cat over here, played with the spring.
I got this straight. I was like, is that going to sound like a spring and it just hit the pole? Yes, that is a spring. I don't know if you hear that at all. There's a big, loud thing. I'm sorry. They hear that. I apologize.
It's been a while since I've done the podcast. Did you think there'd be a cigar company come out of a podcast that started five years ago? That is clear cut.
Most definitely no. I did not ever think that that would happen. But I'm glad it did. Yeah. Because they're good cigars.
They are. They are. I mean, I'm a little bit of a, I'm not like an aficionado because, like, you know, I can't detect certain things. But I am a little bit of a snob on what I like. Yeah.
And I like them. They're good, man. And you know me. I don't like sweets. Yeah. But I like these sweets.
He's starting to jump in on the sweet board, which is a great thing for me. Because the Sweet Elder is where it's at. Oh, it's so good.
It's our, I say the Sweet Elder is my number one seller when I go to events. But online, our Deacon's Delight, our Dark Maduro suite is our number one seller. Yeah. So it's interesting how that works out online versus in person.
I'm the Sweet Elder guy. But one of the things, and me and Brett talked about it briefly a couple of weeks, months ago on the podcast. We had a reviewer that said, you want spiritual health, but you're promoting cigars. That's how, help yourself spiritually, but kill yourself physically.
Well, what's your thoughts behind that? You've done some research on cigars and tobacco. Okay.
Share your thoughts. All right. So, oh, that's, so we did. I wasn't expecting to go here on this. Yeah, but let's do it. Did we do, we did an episode, I know, way back in the day on tattoos, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Did we ever do one on smoking? No, we never did one on smoking and the freedom of, and I've been smoking cigars since I was 18. So I've just. Yeah, he totally like duped me on that. Like I didn't know for years and we were supposed to be best friends.
Yeah. So years ago, this was way before the podcast, I had done a series at our church and this is what I did. I titled it Taboo. Is that a sin?
Yeah. And I covered several topics that we've always sort of been taught in church. This is sinful. This is wrong. Don't do it. And I said, let's go to the Bible and actually see what the Bible says about that and see if it's a sin. Yeah.
And I think in that series with our church, I covered the subject of tattoos, which we ended up doing an episode on. And then I covered the subject of gambling. Mm-hmm. And then I covered the subject of smoking in that episode,
or in that series. And there was one more, but I can't remember. Alcohol. Yeah. Drinking alcohol. Smoking and drinking. No. Yeah, that's right. Because I actually did so much research.
Discussing Smoking and Health
I did two. I did a part one and a part two on alcohol and drinking. And then I did one whole lesson on gambling. And then I did a lesson where I put together tattoos and smoking together. Yeah. And even then, I wasn't even close to smoking a pipe or cigars.
So, first of all, let's just cover that. Is smoking prohibited in Scripture? And the answer is... No! No!
Find me a verse that has anything to do with smoking. It doesn't exist. No. It's not there.
All right? So then, what is normally the argument that gets made? Well, they didn't have the capabilities, or they didn't have the... No, they smoked back in the day. Oh, yeah. They found ways to smoke things. Well, they'll get lung cancer. Okay.
You'll get cancer from it. So, the argument normally comes to, I think it's 1 Corinthians 6, 19.
Defiling the temple. Defiling, yeah. Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Your body is a temple of God. As I'm sitting here looking at M&Ms on my desk. Yeah. And you're supposed to be defiling the temple. If you're doing that, it's unhealthy. Yeah. Okay.
Well, man, you're going to find yourself in a five-hour argument that's never going to get resolved if you start talking about... Like, name me one person who is, like, perfectly in physical health that ever made the argument of 1 Corinthians 6, 19, and gets smoking. Yeah.
I've never seen one. So, then you have to go to this. What's the aspect of risk? Right?
Yeah. So, we all take in the things. I mean, when you look at the way food is made today, you about can't even survive eating food without taking in something into your body. Unless you just have tons of money and you can afford to live completely healthy.
I just don't know. But then you have to take into effect, like, okay, what is the actual, how much risk am I doing to my health? Now, is it a biblical principle?
And we're not going to get into all the nitty-gritty, because this is a spur-of-the-moment sort of topic. But is it a biblical principle that we should be good stewards of our body? Absolutely.
Okay. We both agree with that. Me and James here, you're not getting any argument from us. We agree with that. Yeah.
But what does God care about more than that? I actually said this in the message. Our spiritual well-being.
He cares more about your heart. All right? But that doesn't mean he only cares for my heart, and I can bless God, I can get as fat as I can, like old Tony Hudson talks about. Amen. Oh, name dropping. That's right.
All right? But your physical health is important as well, but God is more concerned than this. But let's go back. Physical health is important.
So then you have to go back and look and say, all right, well, am I taking unreasonable risk? And that's what people say. Well, you're just putting cancer in your body. All right? Well, you need to do your research on it. All right?
First of all, there is a vast difference between smoking cigarettes and smoking cigars and then smoking out of a pipe, you know, classic pipe tobacco from a pipe. Yeah.
And there's a video I watched on YouTube when I was doing the research before I started to see what the health risks were.
And there was a dentist who shared a study that was done of the research of this, and it was saying that in the study, they looked at the overall health effect of smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.
I think it was a pack of cigarettes. Maybe it wasn't a pack of cigarettes. Four or five cigarettes a day. Mm-hmm. One cigar a day.
And they, or was it two cigars? Anyways, it was cigarettes, cigar, and then like three bowls in your pipe.
Bowls, like you fill the little thing up with tobacco. Three bowls a day. And what they found was is that the health effect of those cigarettes being smoked was like way up here. So you're talking like in the 80s or 90% area of not good for you.
A cigar was like 4% and three bowls of tobacco in a pipe was like 2%. Mm-hmm. In other words, they are so vastly different.
Yeah. Well, why is that? Well, there's chemicals and toxins. There's all kinds of stuff in a cigarette. So much stuff in a cigarette. The tobacco, long-leaf tobacco, and that's the difference is a long-leaf, high-grade, premium-grade tobacco product that's long-leaf.
There's no chemicals in it. It's just taken off the stem and rolled up, and you just enjoy it. Okay. Yeah, exactly.
And so you have the cigar, which is that, and then you have the pipe, which is even a more pure form of tobacco being put in there. Yeah. And you're bringing it through the pipe. All right. So then the other thing is like, well, it causes cancer. It causes cancer. Okay.
Yeah. It causes lung cancer. Right. Right. All right. Why is that such a misnomer? COPD and lung cancer. Yeah. Why is that a big misnomer with cigar smoking and pipe smoking? You tell me. Okay.
Because you don't inhale it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't inhale it. You bring it to your mouth and let it out. There is zero risk of lung cancer with smoking a cigar and smoking a pipe because you don't inhale it.
Yeah. It's really, if you wanted to be technical, you're not actually smoking, you're puffing. Yeah. Right. But you inhale with cigarettes. Okay. So the health risk goes back down.
The dentist actually said if there is any cancer risk at all, and it's very, very minimal, he said the cancer risk is called, it would be a tongue cancer. Not even a mouth cancer or something like that or a lip cancer. It's actually a tongue cancer.
And the only thing that they can attribute that to, it's a theory. They don't even know why.
But the best thing they can attribute that to would be because of the heat that is on their tongue. Because what they've actually found is that there are certain areas of villages in Chile where they drink this drink that is insanely hot. And they've had a higher risk of tongue cancer in there.
And they think that maybe it's because of the heat on their tongue. But they don't know. Yeah. That's what they think. So we've looked at it. The risk is extremely low.
Okay. It's not near what everybody thinks. So then you're just saying, then why do it? Why do it? Why do it? It's enjoyable. Yeah. It's enjoyable.
I'm a firm believer in having hobbies and hobbies that are beneficial and allowing you to have some type of rest in that hobby. Some guys, I love golf. I just don't do it enough.
And so, but when me and my brothers, we go out and we golf and we hang out. It's a four-hour hobby where I'm going to go out and I'm going to have a good time with my brothers. We're going to have some good bonding. It's going to be a great time.
And I felt guilty for a little while when I would go outside and I'd smoke and we'd hang out in the building or whatever.
And I would tell Allie, you know, I feel like I'm neglecting.
The kids come out there with me. We haven't got a pool table out there. I work on my kids' bikes. We do stuff as a family. Like we're hanging out together.
I said, but I just feel like sometimes I'm neglecting some certain things because it's an hour of my time. And she said, James, you know how high-paced you are. You know how high-strung you are at times.
That's one hour where you're devoted to slow down. And you can't do it because you're wanting to finish it. You spent the money to have it. And so she said, you are on purpose slowing down. I use it before I preach my sermon on the weekend.
I'll use it as a time of meditation. As I'm going through my sermon and doing final preparation, it's slowing everything down and just giving me time to focus and rest and relax.
And so meditate. Meditate. There's a time of benefit that comes with that. Yeah. Here's another objection. Isn't that stuff addictive? Okay. Let's talk about that. Is it all right if we talk about it? Sure.
Okay. We'll go as long as you want. I mean, people can turn us off whenever. First of all, I think that I have a little bit of a differing view on things being necessarily addictive. Like, I do disagree with the black label warning that nicotine is an addictive chemical.
I don't think that a certain thing. I'm going to get tons of heat about this. But I think the addictive aspect,
I believe, is actually within your heart. Okay. It comes over. So is it addictive? Yes. How many other things in our life when we can become addictive? Tons of things. Yeah. So here's sort of the line that I set up for myself.
I would give you a pushback on that right before you say this, Lon. I would say the chemical derivative of nicotine that they pull out of tobacco is addictive. But tobacco itself is not.
Because when they pull that chemical out, they're enhancing that chemical that they put back into the cigarettes that cause it to be so addictive to where you can't live without it because your body is so accustomed to it.
But that's where I would say that there's a little bit of an intertwining of two things, right? All right.
For instance, we could do this with coffee. Yeah. Correct? That's where I was going to go. All right. So caffeine.
Yeah. All right. There's an element where your body can get used to having a certain thing.
Right? Because if you are used to having caffeine, whether it's in your coffee, you're a tea drinker, or a soda drinker, go without it for a day or two.
You start to get what? Headaches? Headaches. That kind of thing. And so therefore, everybody says, well, yeah, the things are addictive. All right. But there's a difference. Your body is just like your mental faculties. It is something that adapts to habits.
And so when your body is adapting to a habitual thing that it's used to getting, whether that's caffeine, whether it's a narcotic, whether it's nicotine, when you stop that or you're doing it so much, then, yeah, you're going to have what they call withdrawal symptoms. But here's the thing.
You get to that point where you're doing anything, whether it's a chemical or that kind of thing, because you have given in to a desire to want it that much. Yeah. Okay?
So therefore, I would say that the thing that I'm careful about, and of course, there's other things that if you're – they can have much more damaging effects.
So if I could smoke three or four cigars in a day, I'm not going to get to where I'm treating people wrongly, but I could drink a lot of alcohol, and it does affect – I get the nuance. There's nuance in a lot of this. I understand that.
But what I'm getting to is this, is that I recognize that when I started doing this,
this is what I needed to guard, and I needed to guard my heart, and that is this. I enjoy, after studying,
after a week of ministry, going out on the porch, taking a cigar, and like you said, sort of slowing down, having a relaxed time. But what I've got to guard my heart is that I need that.
Yeah. If I get to the point where I must have that or I need that – even my heart is saying this – I need the cigar to settle down and relax.
If I get to that point, yes, then it has become a problem. Yeah. But if I get – forget the cigar. If I do that with anything, it's a problem. Yeah. For instance, life is life.
And one of the ways that I judge this is if life is just going the way it is, and I'm sitting there thinking, like, I would like a cigar right now. I'm going to make a cigar happen no matter what. Yeah.
And then I'm getting upset with things happening. My kid's doing something. My wife requesting something that's getting in the way of what I was wanting, and I'm starting to get mad. Yeah.
That's a problem on my part. I have set that as way too far of an element. Absolutely. But if I'm like, okay, if I have the opportunity, if I do this, I go and enjoy it, that's where it's in the right balanced category.
And so that's just something that I keep on guard with. So do I think that – oh, it's addictive. It's addictive. How many things in our life can become addictive?
I mean, you were talking about today the food that we put in our bodies are so vastly different than when we were kids. Because they have added so many artificial flavorings to make them more appealing for people to continue eating because they're wanting to be addictive.
So many people that come up with the objection, like, I wouldn't do that because it's addictive. All right? You go without your coffee for a week. Yeah.
Let's find out if you're addicted to it. Oh, I would say yes. I've got two coffee makers in my office. I've got a coffee maker at my house. There's a coffee maker downstairs in the church. Yes, I would be like no.
Conscience and Personal Choices
I guess what I'm getting at is that that's not a – it's not an argument. That's not a defense. I guess – like, listen, if your conscience is to the point where it's like you don't want that – we are not saying you should be smoking cigars just as we are.
What we're saying is there is nothing in Scripture that says we're in sin because we pick up a cigar and smoke it.
And there's a reason why our podcast is the 4-Freedom Podcast because it's For Freedom Christ has set us free individually to determine what we can do within the bounds of Scripture to live our life in a way that glorifies God.
And you may say, X, Y, Z, if I eat pizza with pepperoni on it, I feel like I'll be breaking God's law.
That's not for me to impose that same standard of what you feel like that that is a sin onto me because I may not think that's a sin.
But you may have that hard line of a stance and by all means, whatever your conscience is telling you, stay clear of that. So, yeah, I think that's good. Well, John? I probably just angered a lot of your listeners. It happens.
We may not make it to 100,000. We may not make it to 100,000 downloads after that. Yeah. So, any thoughts, any questions, any final things before we close it down?
Or what else we got on the agenda? That's all the questions I sort of had wrote down. Well, I've enjoyed the series that you guys were doing on the Fundamentalism Footsteps.
Yeah. I thought that was a good series. Some of the interviews that you got were pretty cool.
And you just did the episode, was it on Paul Chappell was the last one, and you interviewed Jake. Yeah. And that was a cool story.
You know Jake pretty well. I know Jake. We went to college with Jake. You're smiling pretty good right now. Yeah. A lot of memories. A lot of memories with Jake. You want to share some of those memories? No. We'd be putting explicit on the – sorry. No.
But we've had some good times. Lots of laughs with old Jake. And so, yeah.
And it's – you know, enjoy Brett and his addition to it and his perspective. And interested to see where you guys take it and where you guys do next and what you decide. So, absolutely. You're doing good. Well, great.
Well, I'm excited for the future and excited about what the Lord is doing. Never did I think this would be a thing and we would be going through this and all these ventures would have come out of it. But I'm thankful that, you know, we just serve the Lord and see what happens.
And so, well, until next time, to God be the glory, great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing.
And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning that has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the 4-Freedom Podcast.
If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the 4-Freedom Podcast. 4-Freedom Podcast.
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