37. Spiritual Identity Disruption w/ Rebekah Drumsta Part 1

And here we go. And here we go. It's exciting to be back on the show. We've had some technical difficulties this morning trying to get ready to record. But it's exciting to be back. It's exciting to be recording on your birthday. John's turning a big, I believe, 33 this year, correct, John, or 34? No, that would be a big 34. 34! Yeah, my kids jumped in on me this morning with breakfast in bed and all that stuff. So it's been a fun time. Well, John, you're just getting old. You're just an old man now. I know. I know. I know. I know. But, you know, enough about that. Enough about that mess. We are excited about our episode today. And we're going to jump right into it with our This Week Roundup. All right, James. This week in the world, not a whole lot going on in the world of fundamentalism. There was a big sermon that was preached this Sunday that JC dropped. We'll talk about that in just a second. We're going to cover that in just a minute. Not a whole lot going on. Something that I want to cover personally, just because it's our podcast and we get to do this. Yeah, exactly. I've always been a fan of a big movie fan, film fan. And every year I like to watch the films that are nominated for the best picture at the Oscars and the big categories and sort of give my, you know, what I see if they are. Every now and again, like, I like to do it because I like to watch a good story and you get surprised with maybe a movie you didn't, that you wouldn't normally watch. And you're like, oh, man, that was so good. And then, and then, of course, there's the ones that you're like, why in the world was this thing nominated? So the Oscars are this coming Sunday. And so I'm going to give my Oscar predictions today. And I'm going to do this quickly and try not to go like full film critic on you this morning. But here it goes. James, you ready? I'm ready. I can't give you any input because I don't follow this world as much as you do. I just know that they honor themselves and it's a great time of them lifting themselves up. That's all I really know about. You are correct. You are correct. It is, it is really ridiculous. And I don't take it. I don't, I don't like, like that kind of stuff. I just like to see, you know, it's art. Art is subjective and the arts of filmmaking and that kind of stuff. And I enjoy that. I enjoy storytelling. So just the mere fact, I don't even, to be honest with you, I don't even watch the show. I just like read the news reports later on to find out who won and be like, oh man, oh. And that kind of thing. That's it. But these are the films that were nominated for Best Picture at the Academy Awards this year. The Trial of the Chicago, well, let's see. Sound of Metal, which is on Amazon Prime Movie. Nomadland. Nomadland. Judas and the Black Messiah. Minari. Mank, which is a Netflix film. The Father. The Father. Promising Young Woman. And The Trial of the Chicago 7, which is also a Netflix film. All right. So I've watched all of these. And first, let me just say, I'll tell you what I think was the best film in the category. I think it was The Trial of the Chicago 7. If you are a fan of courtroom dramas, I highly recommend it. It was a fantastic movie. And it's actually, I don't want to get political at all, but very strikingly eerily similarities when you watch this movie to what happened in Washington, D.C. That's all I'm going to say about that? That's all I'm going to say about that? Very interesting, though. My number two on that was Promising Young Woman. That rocked my world. I thought it was a great movie. Now, those were my favorites. The movie that I think is going to win is the one that I think is the worst on this list, which is Nomadland. I did not understand Nomadland. It was like, when the credits rolled at the end, I was like, what was the point of this? Now, I'll say this, that the actress that played in it, Frances McDormand, did a fantastic job. So, my pick is Trial of the Chicago 7. The one I think is going to win. My prediction is Nomadland. So, the best actor and actress are the big categories, so I'm going to run through these real quick. So, the best actor award, I believe, should go to Anthony Hopkins. Anthony Hopkins played in a movie called The Father. This is a story about a guy struggling and his daughter and their relationship as he struggles through Alzheimer's. So, if that's something you'd like to understand more, I highly recommend the movie. I warn you, it's extremely sad. But Anthony Hopkins, hands down, kills it. And just amazing performance. I think he should win. Who I think, my prediction, who will win is Chadwick Boseman for Ma Rainey's Black Bottom. And that's a Netflix film that he starred in. And I think that just because of his passing, I think that he'll end up winning it. Best Actress Award, I think, goes to Carey Mulligan for Promising Young Woman. I thought that was fantastic. But I think Frances McDormand for Nomadland will actually win it. Best Supporting Actor is Daniel, I don't even know if I'm saying his name right, Daniel Kaluuya. And some of you may recognize him. He played in Black Panther as T'Challa's buddy. But I think that he should win it, and I think he will win it. That's my prediction for who will win Best Supporting Actor. And then Best Supporting Actress, I think Olivia Colman, who played Anthony Hopkins' daughter in The Father, should win. But I think Maria Bakalova for this Borat movie will actually win the Best Supporting Actress. So there's my prediction. My predictions of who will win, Nomadland, Chadwick Boseman, Frances McDormand, Daniel Kaluuya, and Maria Bakalova. But is that who I think should win? No. But that is the Oscars. You check it out this week. Again, I'm not going to watch the show, but I will be keeping up with what the wins are and that kind of thing. So I enjoy that. I enjoyed watching them. And so I will say this. I recommend this movie every time. But last year when watching this, I don't know if you've seen this yet, James, but Jojo Rabbit was my favorite movie of last year. Have you seen Jojo Rabbit yet? I have, yes. Did you like it? I did. I watched it with the kids. It was really good. You watched it with your kids? I absolutely love Jojo Rabbit. But anyways, enough about the movies. Let's get to this next thing, James. Well, John, before you get started there, the only thing I want to mention about this weekend that's coming up that I'm excited about would be the NFL draft. Because I'm a man and I like watching men get drafted into playing football. And it's exciting to know that football season is right around the corner. And so that's a big part of what will be coming up in my life this weekend. I've got a wedding. But in between the wedding, I will have my sports center opened up. And so the groom, he's a big sports guy as well. So he told me to keep him updated throughout the wedding, who's getting drafted, and where things are going to be. So pretty excited about that. It's going to be a good time. But since you're talking about movies, John, are you a big Tom Clancy fan? Yes. I've read, actually, I know what you're talking about. And I have read the book Without Remorse. I was at a church member's house this week, or last week, and he had a huge stack of books there. So we got him talking about reading and what he likes to read. And he said, James, my all-time favorite book to read is Without Remorse by Tom Clancy. He said, have you ever read it? And I said, no, I've read a couple of Tom Clancy's books. He said, would you like to read it? And so he went into his back room and gave me a copy, just went back there and grabbed one and gave it to me. And so it's sitting on my table, and I'm planning on, I'm reading a social justice book right now by Votie Bauckham, Fault Lines. And after that, my plan is to start reading Without Remorse. But it's pretty cool that it's making that into a movie. It reminds me, when I watched the trailers, I don't know if you remember. The movie, let me try to think of the name of it. It's the man that his wife and child gets killed. He goes to prison, and then he goes after the people from the inside. Law-abiding citizen. Yes, law-abiding citizen. So it reminds me of that when I see the trailer. But I've not read the book yet. The book is pretty intense, and it's a good one. But, yeah. So, James, why don't you go ahead and introduce us to what we're going to be doing here with our IFP clip of the week. Yeah, so J.D. Massengill, I believe his name is, preached a sermon in his church. And J.C. shared this on the RFP fam page. And I listened to the whole thing because I had a little bit of time. My wife took the kids to school this past Monday. So I had some extended time to get ready. And so I fast-forwarded to the message and listened to his whole message. If you want to listen to shouting and screaming what we were used to as teenagers, by all means, if you want to go and listen to it, you can. But we're going to play two clips. The first clip is about an hour and 57 minutes into the whole service. It's all the singing. I didn't listen to the singing. I just went forward to the message. And he begins to, his whole message is about recovering fundamentalists and where they stand. And so John's going to play this first clip, and we'll talk and give some commentary afterwards. Fundamentalism revolves around why someone would want to recover from that and live an insecure, unstable, a life with no absolutes, a life that is governed by the carnal mind and the desires of the flesh, knowing that all of that together is at enmity with God and whom they say they want to serve and say they love and say they want his presence. That's disturbing. But when you consider it, when you consider it, they are unstable, insecure. They spend their energy and their time trying to justify through humanistic ideology the path that they have taken. I don't have to justify with a carnal mind what I believe and how I live and what I preach and what I say is not good for you and not healthy for your spiritual life. You see, the end result of a message that's preached from the Bible to a saint of God is for them to walk closer to the Lord, to grow in the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Paul said, to increase in the stature of spirituality, to be perfected, as Brother Jim preached this morning, for the perfecting of the saints. And so what they do is they try to justify carnality and worldly living and fulfilling the desires of the mind and of the flesh. And they're not headed toward perfection. They're not interested in anything but a spirit of religion that allows them to be and do everything they want to be and do in the flesh. But I got delivered from the flesh. You see, when I got saved, I got delivered from the carnality of the flesh. Amen. It affects me and every one of us in the building battle with it. But through salvation, we have been delivered, amen, from this world. Well, James, what do you think about that one? Well, I listened to his whole message and the whole first part, he talks about the five fundamentals of the faith. And in just a minute, we'll get to something else. But he starts out by saying that if you don't have fundamentalism, you don't have a foundation and that you are just unstable. He says that by being a recovering fundamentalist, you have no absolutes. You are insecure in your faith. This is not what me and John believe. I don't believe John believes this. I don't believe John thinks it or wants to be unstable and doesn't have a foundation. If anything, since we have removed ourself, we have began to grow in Christ. He said that the end result of a Christian should be someone who's growing in Christ. And when they hear a message, when they hear a sermon preached, they're applying it to their life. John, the last five years of my life have been the most growth that I think I can say that I've seen in my life, spiritually, in God's word, because I'm actually reading and understanding God's word for myself. And I'm not just taking what someone says and running with it. I'm actually verifying what they say. I'm studying it for myself. And that's where the growing in Christ comes is when we have this personal relationship, not because of some standards or some superficial standards that people have placed on us. That's not growing in Christ. He says later when they had come in with long hair, because long hair is a definition of unspiritualness. I don't know, John. It was very frustrating. I wanted to listen to it all. But what's your thoughts on this, John? Well, I have not listened to it all. I listened to the comments that are the clips that you just gave me. And he makes some comments about, he says, they, they, they. So I guess he's talking about, you know, the RFP and those that follow and, you know, part of the RFP network. And so, you know, us and JC and Nathan, I really don't think he's ever listened to them because I don't, that's not what they're doing at all. The major issue that I see in it, though, is that he is equating fundamentalism with Christianity. And fundamentalism is a construct developed to combat theological liberalism that was taking over denominations in the 1920s. Now, it has mutated into a desperate hold to what a handful of men in the 60s, 70s, and 80s had as their personal likes and dislikes that they sold to the independent Baptist movement as the test of being biblical. And that is what fundamentalism has become. And that's the fundamentalism that he's talking about. Now, he may refer back to the five fundamentals, but the fundamentalism that he just went into that tirade about is the fundamentalism that's been handed down to and through the, those, that handful of men in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. And yes, we desperately need to recover from that. Yeah. John, play the second clip and we'll discuss it and we'll be done with our introduction for today. All right. And say that living godly and living holy and living by the precepts and the principles of the Bible is bondage. And it is bondage. The letter killeth. It'll kill you. But through the spirit of God living in your heart, it'll give you life. Amen, Brother Jim. It'll give you life. I mean, me and you could go back and do everything they're doing. Join a Southern Baptist church as worldly as a goat. Amen. Live the way they're living. Sing the songs they're singing. Dress the way they're dressing. But I've been set free from that, thank God. Amen. This Bible that condemned me, that was enslaving my soul, set me free. The same word of God set me free by the spirit of God that liveth in me. I'm having the time of my life. I don't need, listen to me. I don't need smoke coming out of the platform and a bunch of long hair tattooed up, earring wearing musicians playing to stir my flesh. Praise God. I'm satisfied in the house of God with the old songs of Zion and the preaching of the word of God. Happy, happy, happy in Jesus. I don't know how you recover from this. It's real easy to recover from this. It's to be biblical. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it condemns tattoos and people may get upset. Personally, I don't want tattoos. I don't think, but the Bible doesn't say that. It's just a personal conviction of mine. You know, all of a sudden it goes through and he talks about this, the dress standards. And I didn't get this part in there, but he does make this statement. He says, I get my dress standards and I get my attire from wearing suits and everything from the Bible. He said, the Bible tells me to wear a suit. And I did not pull that clip out. I need to go back and find it. But he says that in this sermon. And he makes this statement of bondage. And the letter of the law was bondage, but the spirit gives freedom. And yes, I believe the spirit gives freedom. But then out of the next part of his mouth, he's imposing these legalistic standards that are causing more bondage to happen. And so, yeah, I'm speechless. But, you know, just listening to it again makes me a little frustrated. John, what are your thoughts? Yeah, there's a major disconnect. A major disconnect from, like, what he's explaining as spirituality and the Christian life, which there's actually a couple of bits of truth in what he was saying there. But then automatically he connects those over to superficial man-made standards on the test of that. And so there you see a major disconnect of the cause and effect or the correlation between righteous Christian living and what he thinks that you should look like on the outside. And so that is the problem. And that is what people need to recover from. And that is also, and let me use the word this way, that we need to recover or take back. We need to grasp hold of that and bring it back from the way that they've distorted it and have led people astray with it and as he's still leading people astray with it. So I totally agree. And this is the type of stuff that leads people to come to the conclusion that they've, you know, the spiritual abuse. Last week, James and I covered these stages of leaving a spiritually abusive community. And we talked about that and discussed that. And we've had some feedback from that. And I appreciate those that reached out and let us know what it meant to them. And so we're very excited about today's episode. So our guest today is a lady named Rebecca Drumsta. And Rebecca is a blogger. And she has developed this process called these stages called spiritual identity disruption. And this is what we're going to talk about today. But I want to give you just an introduction to about her. For over two decades, Rebecca has worked globally and served with various nonprofits and organizations. Her background is diverse, including educational and online content development, event coordinating, international relations, and public speaking. Currently, Rebecca is the director of public relations for the NPE Friends Fellowship, an international nonprofit organization. Rebecca is a homeschool mom whose hobbies include binge-watching riveting shows, thrifting with her family, world travel, and dabbling in all things creative and artistic. She hosts her personal website, which focuses on raising awareness about and recovery after religious trauma and spiritual abuse. Her book, When Family Hurts, 30 Days to Finding Healing and Clarity, will be released fall of 2021. She holds a BA in urban ministry and family crisis with a counseling minor, an MA in religious education, and is a certified professional life coach. She is a contributing writer for the Salem Network and has made appearances on and consulted with sources, including BBC, NBC, ABC, The Daily Telegraph, and a variety of other platforms, such as podcasts and film projects. Rebecca's story was also featured on the Preacher Boys podcast, and so I want to encourage you also to go on there and find her episode, listen to it, and I'll link that in the show notes, and you can hear more of her story. But we're excited to have her on today to talk about spiritual identity disruption. Okay. All right. We are excited today to have Rebecca Drumsta with us, and so Rebecca, thank you for being on with us today, and how are you doing? I'm doing great. Thank you for this opportunity. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we sort of set you up last week at the end of our episode, and we're building up sort of the you do life coaching and those kinds of things, and this has been the area of spiritual abuse is something that you've done a lot of work in and research into, and so this is something that you developed, the spiritual identity disruption. Would you mind taking a minute and just sort of breaking that down, sort of the origins of it? What caused you to sort of come up with this and then sort of the process of getting it sort of established? Yeah. So I began the term that's now being used, faith deconstruction journey, about 12 years ago. And when I began that process, I felt like I was a unicorn. I was really alone. And I would go and try to speak with counselors or different spiritual leaders that were, you know, around me, and no one could really understand what I was experiencing. And so I felt so lonely. I felt like I was a bad person. I felt like there was something wrong with me. And all that I could get to was if you're questioning your faith, basically you're in rebellion or you're a bad person, you're sinning, to ask these questions that are not acceptable in our church or our denomination, in our family cultures. And I spent a long time just being alone and feeling so isolated. And over time, as I would go from counselor to counselor, our conversations would come my way or I'd hear a message or hear someone speaking or read a book. I just started putting all these pieces together. And I felt, again, I was alone on this journey, on this process. And I was a young mom. I was married and trying to process all of these things by myself. And over time, I began to start seeing some people filling in the blanks. But it was only about three years ago that it became acceptable to deconstruct or to ask hard questions and dissect your faith to see, okay, what is actually right? What's actually biblical? What's actually moral? What's actually ethical? Like to break down what you'd been taught. And so fast forwarding a whole bunch of years, I heard a presentation by a colleague of mine. And she was talking about identity disruption that she had developed over people who made an unexpected DNA discovery. And that is another one of my worlds. I'm a director of PR for an international nonprofit. And we work with individuals who've made unexpected discoveries through DNA testing. And so I heard her presentation. And so I kind of sat down with her. And I was like, all right, you have a PhD. Your name is Dr. Bethel. You're amazing. And I started saying, I'm seeing some similarities here. And she was like, this is not my space. But put this to work. You have my blessing. And so I began putting together all the information, all the research I'd done, my personal experiences, whether it was clients that I'd had or friends or people I knew who'd gone through this. And I'd started seeing all these patterns. I know, John, I'd seen some stuff that you'd work through. And so I sat down, I put it together, and I let it ruminate for a long time. Because I was kind of like, eh, is this going to mesh with people? Does this make sense? People are using deconstruction and reconstruction. They're not using terms like spiritual identity disruption. And as I kind of let this leak out, as I would share it with people that I know in the mental health professional or other coaches, this was resonating with them. It was. And then I started sharing it with some clients. What do you feel about this? Every single person was so excited and saying, this finally gives me some vocabulary. This finally helps me feel like I'm not crazy. This finally. And so even some mental health professionals say, can I use this now? Because I've had a client come to me, and I don't know how to relate to them. I don't know where they're at. And so it just gives this visual, helps people understand where you are, what you're going through, that you're not crazy, that this is normal, that this is common. Whenever you are leaving behind a toxic belief system, whether that is through a cult, through a church, from your family, from an organization or a ministry you are part of, that there is toxicity that you need to walk away from. But your identity was so wrapped up in that, especially when you're raised in it from a child. That is who you are. You live and you breathe that world that cultivated you. And that is your identity. And so when you're questioning that, say, whether it's wearing pants for women who have an independent fundamental background, that was your identity. I don't wear pants. I'm a woman. Women don't do this. And so when you start exploring those things, it feels wrong. It feels scary. You feel rebellious. You feel like a bad person. And your identity is now disrupted. It's like an earthquake. It's shaken. And that foundation that you thought was so solid is now rocking back and forth. And that's where the identity disruption comes in. And I use the word spiritual identity disruption because, again, that has been the basis of your background. And that's the first thing that starts to change are your religious or spiritual viewpoints. And then we have all the different stages, which we can talk about here in a minute. But that's a little bit of the background of spiritual identity disruption. Right. And I totally get that because I think that even with mine, there's a fear that comes. You know, and like you said, we're going to get to these stages, but you know that there's something wrong. But there's this fear almost of if I question this or if I even entertain the idea of another doctrine or theology, does that mean that I'm going to go to hell or I've abandoned the faith? And so I think for a lot of people, yeah, it's scary. It's a confusing time as well. And James, do you have any comments? Yeah. One of the things that you said that I really resonated with me and my wife was how you said that you felt like you were lonely. You were just in an island. You felt like you were by yourself. And there's so many guys, even since me and John have started this, that have reached out to me and said, man, I felt like I was by myself. I'm the only one that's felt like this or I'm going through this or I'm questioning this. And that's why I think that what we're doing and what the RFP is doing is so great because it's letting people realize that you're not alone. Just because you're questioning things, just because you're asking questions doesn't mean you're wicked. It doesn't mean you're wrong. It's a good thing. I know that we're going to get into it, but there's eight stages of the SID here that you have. Did it originally, was it eight or did you consolidate this down? Did it start with 20 and you sort of, how did you get to this point of eight? I know John had eight or nine as well. What was the number eight that stuck with it? It wasn't so much the number as it was the experiences that people were having. And so again, I would take notes and I would just observe and listen. And I started seeing those patterns and it's just felt like everyone I was talking to or that I knew was experiencing these exact same things. And again, as we get into this, you don't just go from one stage to the next, like perfectly. You can pop around. You can hop from one to the other, sometimes within the exact same moment, same day, like the stages of grief and you can experience them all pretty quickly. But I noticed there was no rhyme or reason to this other than the fact that these were the patterns I was seeing that people were experiencing again, through coaching, through people I knew from myself. And so I took the term identity disruption, but the stages are absolutely mine that I came up with based on observation and experience. And I would like to say, James, that you're correct how you were talking about questioning your beliefs. That is one of the very first signs that the community, the church, the environment you're in is not healthy. When you do question a core belief that's there and you get really negative feedback from people. People treat you poorly. People say something's wrong with you. You're a bad person or you're not a good Christian if you're questioning this. So that is one of the very first signs that if you're not sure, am I in an environment that is healthy? Then if you ask a couple of questions, so do we really believe in the Trinity or do we really believe that men are the absolute head of the wife? If you start asking those questions, see what kind of pushback you get. And that'll be a good evidence of are you in a healthy environment or not? That's great. John? Let's jump into this. So the first stage we have is awareness. So Rebecca, give our listeners sort of a definition of this awareness stage. Of awareness. That's the moment that you realize something's off. For me, my journey was quite long, but it all culminated when I had my daughter. I'd given birth to my first child and I'm laying in bed at home recovering. And after the very traumatic birth story, I felt that I'd been abandoned by God and everything I'd lived through, everything I'd been taught, all the steps and the principles and the scripture verses and everything. It failed me. And I felt completely abandoned by God. I did it all right. I followed all the steps. I followed every scripture principle. I mean, good grief. We had hymns playing and my husband was reading scripture and we were doing all these things in the middle of the birth. And still my birth went so crazy. And my daughter's life was almost, almost at risk is how I say it. And I suffered so much physically. God, where were you? You walked away. I did all the things and I was abandoned. And so that was my big moment of awareness. There were lots of little pieces that led up to that, but that was that big moment of, oh no, what I've been promised. That did not happen. And so that's when, I don't know, did you read the definition of how I define spiritual identity disruption before we get into this anymore? No, I did not. That's a great idea. Sorry. Yeah. I'll jump into that just real quickly because that kind of, that's the springboard, the awareness is that springboard into spiritual identity disruption. So here's how I've defined it. Spiritual identity disruption is when what you believed or were taught about faith or spirituality collide with an opposing lived experience, which may include abuse, trauma, or hypocrisy. This polarization cannot be reconciled using the existing foundation, thus causing a disruption of identity and crisis of belief. So that's where I found myself in that big awareness moment of, oh my goodness, this does not add up. What is wrong? I have no idea, but something's way off. Yeah. I also think that it's, I like to speak to maybe also people that may be in church work or pupil helpers in the church to try to get them to understand the perspective of maybe where you were. And I think that one thing that would be helpful is to give people room to have these and even voice these thoughts. These thoughts. I mean, just a question here. Did you feel like you could tell your pastor or even someone around you at that time that you felt abandoned by God? Absolutely not. Yeah. Absolutely not. I remember the earth shattering moment for that for me. I'd already left the IFB church. I was reading a book by Chuck Swindoll on Job, and he told a story about a pastor friend of his that they had just lost their daughter. And she was, I think, a teenager in her early 20s. And they were grieving, very raw. And he said that his friend got in his car, and he just took a drive by himself, and he said he just, just let God have it. And just, he said, I was saying things I'd never say to any human person. He said profanities and those kinds of things. And he said, you know what? He was talking to Chuck Swindoll. He said, you know what, Chuck? God can handle it. Yeah. And just that story being painted in a positive picture of an illustration, I was like, wait, no, this guy cussed. This is not right. But it was just sort of like, you know what? God can handle it. Yeah. He can. He can handle our doubts, our questions, those big things that we don't know what to deal with. And that's what a loving father does when your child can't. You know, if you imagine a child who's kind of pitching a fit and having a tantrum, that's because there's something big inside of them that they don't know how to handle. And a loving father comes alongside and guides and helps them. And let me give you a hug. Let's talk this through. How can we, you know? So yes, God can handle it. God can handle anything. Yeah. My son is very emotional like my wife and I have to do those steps with him of saying, okay, let's calm down. Let's talk about it. Let's get into a quiet place. Let's be able to process these things. You know, I was raised, we didn't talk about things. We just, we just got over it. And so it's a different style for me, but I'm definitely learning through this as well. So we start out with this awareness and then we go to this disbelief and distrust. You have it here on your little circle diagram. How can I have believed these things? What else is wrong? Who can you even believe? So go ahead and break this down for us and help us understand it a little bit. For me, this stage was, all right. So I grew up in the same church for, you know, 20 years and IFP church. I had the same people in my world almost my whole life. So if all of these people from all these different places, wait a second, they've all lied to me. They've all let me believe these things. They've all taught me these things. So if the people that supposedly love me the most, the people that supposedly have been my spiritual guide, my education guide, my all of these things. If I can't trust them anymore, then who can I trust? So I went through a season where I wouldn't read Chuck Swindoll. I wouldn't read Max Licato. I wouldn't read anybody because I'm like humans mess everything up. I'm not reading from one more person. How am I supposed to know if they're a cult leader? How am I supposed to know if they're a healthy, mentally and emotionally stable person? How am I supposed to know? Because I did not have the framework. I didn't have the tools I needed to make those decisions. The critical thinking, the analysis, the, I didn't know how to believe something that wasn't exactly what was in the little cookie cutter package that I'd been raised in. And so I noticed, I've noticed this so often that if this is wrong, then that must be wrong. And then, well, that pastor has to be wrong and that ministry must be wrong. And you start just going, I don't know who to believe, what to believe, what, you know, what else is wrong? If this belief was wrong, what other beliefs are wrong? And I call it like the deconstruction dominoes. And once you change one belief, well, that means this one and this one. And then before you know, everything is falling is what it feels like. It just feels like that domino effect. And so that becomes a very scary stage to be in on what is real, what is true, who can I trust? Can I trust my spouse? Is my spouse indoctrinated in these crazy things? What they're telling me, can I even trust my own spouse? What about my parents? Well, this was the pastor I had for 20 years. This was my best friend for 20 years. This was, and it's a very, very frightening place to be. Because who do you believe and what do you believe anymore? You don't know. Yeah. You know, I don't endorse Andy Stanley, especially now in his side of his life now. But he uses the illustration of a house of cards. And when one card is taken out of that house of cards, if you can disprove one of them, the entire house comes falling down. And that's sort of how this is. When you see that one moment happen, that one card comes out, whether it's halfway through at the bottom, almost at the top, everything else is going to fall down and destroy that entire house of cards. And you've got to start over from the ground up and reconstruct from the deconstruction. There you go. And if it's true, then it's going to stay. And that's why I use more of a definition of deconstruction. I look at it scientifically. My daughter loves science. And so everything in our home is about science. But I look at it as dissecting. We're piecing apart. Taking one piece at a time. Does this belong? Is this right? Is this true? Is this healthy? And it's not so much that I'm like ripping things to shreds as it's a systematic approach to is this right? Is this okay? Is this according to God's word? Is this instead of just willy-nilly like whatever goes? No. We're dissecting. There's intention here. I actually had a conversation on the community page this past week. And I had made a post about King James Only Source. And I can't even remember her name, but a lady commented on there and just basically what you had just described. I mean, it was in a Facebook post, but if I could have a visual to it, it was just like throwing her hands up and saying, this is so overwhelming. Like, how do I know what to believe? How do I know who to trust? And, you know, I think she said, I'm a mother. When do I have time to – I don't know if this is something to speak to later and we're going to get to this or if this might be something for you to address now. But do you have any practical tip or advice to someone that may be like, you know what, I totally identify with what you're saying right now. But it's a little overwhelming to say, oh, now I've got to start researching everything. Well, that's – yes, that's a very important one. And I see this often, especially with people from a very legalistic background with a lot of those absolute yeses and absolute noes in our life and more don'ts. Like, we don't do this, we don't do this, we don't do this. More don'ts in our lives than we do this. And the biggest thing is this is a journey. There is no destination. And I have actually had told clients for the next month, I don't want you researching, reading, listening to podcasts. I don't want you doing anything about this. Because what happens is we think that we so quickly have to replace a belief. We think, well, if this is wrong, then I have to find what's right. Because we're so used to that model, to that structure, to that we have to know our boundaries. Legalism can carry so easily over into a new set of beliefs. And it might be labeled as grace. It might be covered as something else. But because we have to jump so quickly, there's that pendulum that you have to watch out for. Because I've grown up with people who wear head coverings and the skirts all the way down. And in a week's time, they're wearing bikinis at the beach. Because we quickly want to replace, no matter what it is, that's human nature. Especially for some of us from that very legalistic, more of, or if you have a cult background. Because you feel safe having an answer. You feel safe and you feel like there's, okay, I can make sense of this. If I, you know, we're so used to give an answer to any man, the reason of the hope that's any with meanness and fear. We're so used to having the boom, boom, boom, boom answers on what I believe and why I believe it. So when you find yourself in this space of, I don't know what I believe anymore. It feels wrong. But actually, give yourself space. Because God shows up. When you're willing to say, I don't know. But God does. So if you're a mom, like I was when I started this journey with a tiny little newborn, give yourself the time. You don't have to hurry, hurry, hurry, and rush and figure all of it out. And from what I've seen, and when you need to know, the answer will be there. When you're raising your kids and they hit puberty and you're like, well, how I was done and we didn't have any talk about anything from my family. I know that's wrong, but I don't know what to do. The answers will come. Because if your heart wants to know the truth of God, God will bring you that truth. So take a breath. Take a step back if you need to. Don't rush it. Because what you'll do is you'll swing to something that you actually don't believe in. Or that you find out later is just as wrong as what you left. And you'll be going through it again. And you'll go through it again. Yeah. I wish I had you. I wish I had this seven years ago. I think that I did that exact thing. Now, I don't think it was as detrimental as it could have been. But are you familiar with cage stage? This is a huge term in the Calvinist world. Like as soon as somebody finds out, they come to a realization or they come to a belief in the five points of Calvinism. They believe that they've got to set everybody straight with this. And they're a little bit unkind and unchristlike about it. And really push people away. And maybe I would have avoided a little bit of cage stage if I had known this. And some other things. And now it's sort of like, okay, what I thought I was going to that was balanced and grace-filled actually has tendencies to be exactly legalistic like I was from. And so it's sort of like it's actually taken seven years to hit that, you know, start coming to a balance. And that was really good. So we have the awareness. But the point is, John, you're growing. You've seen that. That's the point. You're still growing. Yeah. So we've seen the awareness stage, the disbelief and distrust. And so this is one that I talked a little bit about too because I think this is very huge. And that is this grief and loss stage. Yes. This is the time when I've seen two different areas. One is the things that you've already lost, you begin to grieve. Whether that was the church, like you had to leave the church where you grew up. So you're grieving that. There's things that you are already aware of or maybe, you know, like for me being my identity as a woman was really shaken up. And I had to grieve some of the things that I really believed this. But once you begin to change your beliefs or see your way out of a system that is toxic or unhealthy or just flat right unbiblical, there's people that you may have to step away from for a season or for good. And it, whenever that happens, you, it could be your, again, your church community, your family, your closest friends. It could be, you don't know what, where this ripple effect will go. And grief, they say has five stages. Some people say six. And you will find yourself cycling through those because on this journey, well, there's things, for example, I said, such as a woman. I thought that my job as a woman was to have as many babies as I could have, or at least be open to having as many babies as God would allow to grow inside of me. Well, I struggled with that. I could get pregnant, but I couldn't keep the babies. And I thought my identity was so wrapped up in, but I have to have, you know, three to seven children in order to please God and to be a good wife and to be a woman. And so when I couldn't give birth, when I couldn't carry these babies full term, I battled this because that was my identity. That is what I was told was supposed to be a godly woman. And that it collided with my faith deconstruction because I started realizing, wait a minute, my husband and I, that's what's a family. That having lots of children doesn't make me a family in God's eyes. I'm married. I'm a, I have a family. Then God did bring my daughter. We're still a family. If we have one or we have 18, we're a family. And I had to deconstruct, but I had to grieve the fact that my body would not carry more children to full term. I had to grieve the fact that I'd been told that my worth as a woman was how many children I could give my husband. I had to grieve all of these things in order to come to this realization of my identity does not have, is not tied up in how many children I give birth to. But I thought it was. And so there's things that you thought would be or should be that you may have to grieve. There's, there's friendships, there's relationships, there's people, there's even your church because each church or in each denomination have their own culture. And so you might've loved this culture and now that's gone. And where do you belong? You feel like you don't belong anywhere. So you're grieving the loss of community. You grieve the loss of fellowship. Some of these, the grief may be short-lived and maybe short-term. Some of these things may go on forever as you've lost people that were in your life that now you realize won't respect boundaries, that they are unhealthy, that they're abusive. And yes, John, you're right. This is a really big stage that kind of smacks you when you're not expecting the loss of a belief that you held about yourself or about God or about church. And that's when I would walk into a church and I would have to leave because I would begin grieving as I would hear what was being said from the pulpit. And I would say, they're, they're wrong. They're teaching people this is legalism or this is, that's not God. And I would feel grief as well as some anxiety and being overwhelmed and all these things. But it's a massive step and a massive stage that you may find yourself on the enemy. You may go a year or two and you're like, Hey, I haven't lost anybody. And then boom, you lose your best friend. Your brother won't talk to you anymore, whatever it is. Because as you go on this journey, as you get healthier, as you identify the true things that God has for us, as your mental and emotional and spiritual health improve people around you, sometimes they can't deal with that. Well, even, you know, I've talked to guys who, you know, went to a Bible college or went somewhere and they've got friends and they know they're not in a healthy, great relationship with God or church, whatever. And they're afraid to leave because they'll lose those friends that they'll lose those preaching engagements. And they know these things, but they know themselves. If I leave or if I do something wrong, I won't get asked to go preach somewhere. I won't get asked to go do something. My platform of being a preacher will be taken away. So they don't go through these because of that loss. And they know that it's going to be there. Yeah. That's a big decision because you have what you said. Sometimes your finances are tied. Your entire, your business is tied to these things. And, but some of it goes back to being honest with others, with yourself and with God. Yeah. That's cultic too. I mean, that's one of the things that Leah Remini covers in her Scientology stuff and the television show and her podcast. Because, you know, she said, I've heard her say that she, there's so many people actually in Scientology that understand it's a bunch of crock, but they're not going to leave. Because they know if they leave, they'll have, their family will just be done with them. Yes. It's, it's, it's, it's, I, I, I, you know, our experience being the IFB, it's, it's sort of connect. I'm not saying it's full on cults. Some, some believe that, but it's another episode we're going to cover. Yes. Let me just, well, yeah. Let me be on that one too. Yeah. That's some good stuff. Yeah. You did say, before we move to the next one though, James, that she, she mentioned this, and I think this would be helpful for our listeners. You, you had mentioned that even in the grieving stages, you may cycle through the, the five stages of grief. And the reason why, because I think just even mentioning these may be helpful for some listeners, which is denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Yes. And sometimes the sixth one people are saying would be anxiety. Oh, I have, I have a full on intentions of having someone, a counselor and panic attacks, just because I know that is a big issue with many people that they leave. They have panic attacks or anxiety, just going to a new church. Oh, yes. Yep. So let's go to this next one, searching. And, you know, what is truth? Who are you? And I want to be able to talk about some of these new vocabularies that begin to enter our world from your website, abuse, trauma, umbilical, cultish, manipulative, things that we didn't use before. Why are we using these words now? And, you know, why weren't they used before? Why didn't we hear the words abuse? Why didn't we hear the words cultish? You know, what, what's the difference and why are we hearing them now? And let's explain that. That's a weighty question. Thank you. It is. I try to give you a good softball as we come up to it. Well, part of it would be Steve Hassan's BITE model of authoritarian control. And BITE stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotion. So much of this is authoritarian control where everything that we're taught, everything that we're allowed to believe or feel or act on is so controlled by a teaching, a theory, a pastor. So I started noticing that, wait a minute, in my IFB church, here's the rules. But in my friend's IFB church, those are the rules. And they were different. And it was like, if the Bible actually was our plumb line that we were basing our rules on, why does everybody have different rules? And so, yes, so while you start to search, you begin leaving that control, that authoritarian control. If you've walked out of your church, like left your church to a different one or taking a season where you're not attending church, you will start to explore authors, podcasters, preachers, other things that were not allowed inside, whether it was your family, the ministry, or the church where you were. And so you will start getting all this new information. Not all of the new information is healthy and right, but much of it will be. And so they, people within different denominations, different belief structures, mental health world, they use different vocabulary. Part of the reason also is there's a very sad, and John, you'll probably want to pop in on this one at some point. There's a very, very sad, shouldn't be, lacking of mental health in the church. It is viewed as voodoo. I was even told growing up that you never go to a counselor unless your husband's cheated on you. Then you go for a few sessions to see if you can get him back. So that we don't go to mental health professionals because they're not Bible. They're science, and science is wrong. But I'm sorry, God is the one who made our brains, who made our emotions, who wired our bodies. God created science, so a study of science can be a study of God. So anyway, so that is one of a really big spots in the church that, especially in the more fundamental, very conservative churches, that's lacking. And that's one of the reasons some of these, this vocabulary is missing. Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember this is, and this is like 2004, 2005. I was still in high school. My mom was going through some things. My parents almost got divorced. And so my dad came to us and said, your mom says she wants to see a psychiatrist or see a counselor. And I was like, okay, are you going to take her? And he's like, I told her I'd just rather people think I was crazy or wrong with God than a quack. I was like, you said that to mom? And he said, yeah. Because his mentality was just that. You didn't go to any mental health professional. You didn't go to counseling. Even today, you know, trying to do, you know, finish my certification, it's such a misnomer that trying to break this wall down of counseling is only for bad people. Counseling is only for people whose worlds are falling apart, which, by the way, we all have issues. We all have issues. Yeah. And I remember that it was starting to change when I was in Bible college, but even the idea of depression is just such a misnomer in IFB circles that, you know, and even when I was in church, I was telling a friend yesterday or the other day, I said, you know, I struggled through depression at the last IFB church I was at. And remember walking in on the pastor teaching a class talking about this type of Christianity where you're down one minute and high up the other minute. That's not biblical Christianity. And I knew exactly what he was doing because I tended to wear it on my face. I mean, people knew when I was going through about a depression and I knew what he was doing. He was taking a shot at me. I was just like, okay, well, obviously I can't go to him for any type of understanding because he doesn't get it. Yeah. Well, that was, there's a term that is called spiritual bypassing. And that's when we use scripture or we use a religious or spiritual idea to literally just like an overpass on a freeway. We bypass, we go over the real root of the issue, which depression, anxiety, all of these things could have a medical root. It could have, you just need to go to counseling because you're struggling through something. There's so many different reasons, the root of it. It does not mean you're not trusting God enough. You don't have enough faith. Cast all your cares on him. So they throw these spiritual sounding things and bypass the root of the issue. I would say, who knows? Sure. There's probably somebody out there who's not trusting God enough and that's why they're depressed. Sure. But I would say about 99.9% of the time, it's not the root cause of the depression, of the anxiety, of the reason they're wanting to leave their life, of the reason. So spiritual bypassing has been embraced by the church, practiced by the church as a way to ignore the mental health side of things. Because, of course, if you have a degree in psychology or if you're a licensed counselor, you're an absolute nut job. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, searching. What is truth? Where are you? It leads you into that mental health, into reading new things, into sometimes, again, like we talked about earlier, if you are raised in a very legalistic, very controlled, very authoritarian environment, you're going to want to hurry, hurry, hurry and read all the books, listen to all the podcasts, watch all the everything. You're going to find yourself basically going crazy in this time unless you give yourself a break. Let yourself slowly research and slowly grow and change. And I like the key term, I think, that you just mentioned was slowly. Slowly. Because if you're anything like my personality type, you're going to be like, just give it all to me at one time. And I think that can lead to, taking all that in can lead to the next stage. And what is that? That would be fear and uncertainty. And right there is where we are going to end today. And we will pick back up next week as we finish going through the spiritual identity disruption model with Rebecca Drumston. Thank you so much for listening today. And to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thank you for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give a rating, leave a comment, or share it on Facebook or Twitter. To find more helpful resources for your journey through the independent fundamental Baptist world, check out RFPNetwork.org, where you can find this podcast and others, such as the Recovering Fundamentals Podcast, the RFWP Podcast, the Young Baptist Podcast, the Church Split, the Preacher's Kids Podcast, the 26 Letters Podcast, and the RFP en Espanol. God bless. God bless.

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