36. Stages of Leaving a Legalistic or Spiritually Abusive Community

And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. And here we go. All right, James. One big thing on the This Week Roundup today. And that is the sayonara. Sayonara. The saying goodbye to IFB sermon clips on Twitter. Man. Man. His hiatus is, he said, is going to be permanent. It's off of Twitter. It's still going to be on YouTube. So, all of our great sermon clips that we get, you'll still be able to get them. It'll be on YouTube. What I'm excited about, I told John this, is he's not going to be restricted to his two minute and 20 second clip, which is the Twitter restriction. So, he's going to actually be able to go a little longer if he needs to. And so, we may actually get more context of what's going on and what's been said. But it is going to be, it is a sad day to see that that won't be in our Twitter feed anymore. But I am loving the IFB Sasquatch. He's got some great stuff going out. He's putting some funny, funny stuff out there. And not all of it's just IFB stuff. It's just random greatness. It's great. Yeah. And one of the things I like about the YouTube page is that also he's able to curate it in playlists. So, you can go back and look at the backlogs, the old clips, and then also search them by topics and that kind of thing, which makes it a lot easier when you're looking for some content for the podcast. Thank you, IFB Sermon Clips, for that. James, I want to ask you this before we move off of this. Do you remember the first time that you became aware of IFB Sermon Clips? It was about a year, maybe a year and a half ago. We were sitting at an associational meeting, and there's a guy that's from our same walk of life that's part of the Southern Baptist churches as well, and he's at a church right down the road. And he said, James, he said, have you heard of IFB Sermon Clips on Twitter? And I said, no, what are you talking about? He said, dude, the guys we grew up listening to are on there, and they're making ridiculous statements. Go look it up on Twitter. And I hadn't been on Twitter in like six years from that point. I had a teenager come up to me. I was like, hey, I saw a picture from you from like college on there because I'm just not on Twitter. And so I went on there, and I spent like a day just watching them. And then the next meeting, I went back, and me and him started talking. So, yeah, it's probably a year and a half ago was the first time I saw him. Yeah. When I first heard, I was having lunch with another pastor in the area here who's Southern Baptist, never really had any dealings with the IFB world. And I was sort of explaining to him my background. He's like, do you have Twitter? And I was like, no. And he's like, you need to get on Twitter just because you need to see IFB preacher clips. And I was like, okay. So I signed me up. I created me a Twitter account just to see it. And, man, he did. I mean, we point to like either Eric Skorzynski and Preacher Boys Podcast or the RFP as starting a movement. But I think that we may have to backtrack that just a tad bit. And maybe IFB sermon clips was the real igniter of that movement. You know how, like RFP, this is, some people might really think this is ludicrous. RFP and Preacher Boys Podcast are like Martin Luther and Oryx Wingley of the Reformation. And IFB sermon clips is like John Huss, the morning star of the Reformation. You know, came before it but just sort of getting it going there. I don't know, that was a crazy little example. John, we've given out a couple of honorary doctrines on this show. Should we give IFB sermon clips an honorary doctorate from? I think he's got like five already from North Worth Seminary. Okay. Well, we could give him one from the Four Freedom Ministries, and I think that would be pretty cool too. Yes, definitely. Well, we're now going to move on to our, talking about IFB sermon clips, to our IFB sermon clip archive. And we've been going through this message from our archive that was preached by Jack Skopp. And we're going to play this next clip right now. We walked in one church there, and teenage girls, you could not have found tighter blue jean britches than those girls had on. Halter tops. One girl did have a dress on, the slit went all the way up to her waistband. And she sat there with a whole dress unfurled, showing God and everything she's got. But then he walked out, and he said, I can't believe, he said, we're seeing this stuff in Baptist churches. I said, I can't believe they're Baptist churches. I said, it makes you feel like a very lonely person. Tonight, I just want to give my heart to you. And I'm going to list your help. Tonight, I want you to help me keep the standards that made this church unique. You may sit there and not agree with anything that we believe behind this pulpit or preach behind this pulpit. You may not agree with our interpretation of that book right there. But you're going to be a hard press to find any Baptist church that is as unique as we are. It seems the whole world has gone the way of all flesh. And you cannot tell the difference between the Baptists out there and the Catholics out there. And the Presbyterians out there and the Episcopalians and Hollywood. I don't know the difference. And my God says there ought to be a difference. Thoughts, James? John, what are some things that you think that are different about Howell Anderson and First Baptist Church that stand out in your mind? Howell Anderson, man worship, man worship, cultic behavior, numbers driven philosophy, man worship. Did I say man worship? Maybe. Maybe once or twice. Okay. All right. Yeah. So that's the things that are going to be different when you're there. And, you know, during all this whole one and a half minute clip, he dwelled so much on women's apparel. He gets into a minute when we play the second part of this clip about how these women are just showing everything off. I just, I don't understand why it's all, why a man is speaking so much about what a woman is wearing or perceiving to wear and dressing and look like a harlot. Why are we spending this much time on? Well, I'll say this. I think the alarming thing about this clip is that his focus wasn't just on women in general. It was on teenage girls. And he was pointing that out about what he saw. But I think the overall gist, I mean, yes, very alarming. And we could nitpick and get into the specific and take a lot of time and do that. But I think the overall gist of this is that his main concern seems to be that what makes the church special is the standards. And what should make the church special is its impact in the community as it seeks to glorify God in its mission by staying faithful to God's word. And nowhere in that has anything to do with standards. But that seemed to be the pride and glory of their church was their standards, which in a sense, if you boil all that down, you've got a cult. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right. Let's look at the other one. I'm not interested in having a drum set sitting right here or any place. Not going to have a rock and roll drum set in the church. I'm going to have women with their slits up to their hips showing off the thighs to God and everybody and men of God lusting out. I'm tired of that kind of filth. Not going to have a Baptist church that's giving it. He said, well, you know what? This pants issue. We're just beating a dead horse. One of my friends called me and said, Brother Scott, you're just beating a dead horse. Then I'll beat that horse until he turns into a glue factory. But I'm going to keep beating that horse. I think ladies ought to dress like ladies. Help me keep the standards that make this church unique. I'm talking about ladies wearing dresses. I'm going to apologize for it all. It was the best sight I have seen in the last three days when I got back to the office here on Saturday. And I saw Mrs. McKinney cleaning up her office with a dress on. Thank God Almighty for somebody who believes in the old-fashioned standards. You don't know how happy I was this morning sitting in this platform right here and watching ladies as you stood with modest dresses on. Met a lady shaking hands out here one Sunday morning. And she said to me, Brother Scott, she says, I'm glad you are a pastor. I love this as my church. She said, I'm one of those women that doesn't agree with you in pants. That's okay. Listen to me. You don't have to agree with me. But I sure wish you'd change your attitude and become one of those people that helps keep this place what makes it this place. If you never wear a dress out in public, you're still welcome at this church right here. I'm not telling you that I don't want you. You're not welcome here. You're welcome here if you never give in to what we preach here. But I'm telling you that the majority of you women know what I'm talking about. A few of you younger ones might not know what I'm talking about. Younger than the Lord might not know what I'm talking about. But everybody here who's heard this preaching or Brother Howe for any think the time knows that the old-fashioned Bible way of women wearing modest dresses exactly what God had in mind. John, there's a couple of things there. I want to first start out by saying, we're just going to beat the dead horse until it turns into a glue factory. You don't know how many times, John, when I was in college, I would walk around in my high-pitched Jack Scott voice screaming that. Well, we're just going to beat the horse until it turns into a glue factory. Oh, I love it. I love it. Wow. Wow. And you know what? It sounds like he does a lot of looking at the ladies. Man, I'm telling you what, John. When I'm away for a couple of days, the best sight that I can see is my wife when I go into my house. What he said his best sight was was seeing Miss McKinney in a full-blown dress, his secretary. Why is his secretary the greatest sight to him? There are better things out there, such as your wife, that should be a better sight. Yeah, all of this, I think in all of it, there's no even thought and mention of doing anything for the glory of God or pointing back to God, except for when it came down to that last statement and trying to hit home his point of this is exactly what God had in mind. Is it? This is an interesting thought because James and I are doing some research and study right now because we want to tackle music in an upcoming episode. And I read something in the aspect this guy was going to the aspect of music, pointing it out. But I think it also can come back to the dress. And I think it's very interesting. And that is that you're talking about a God who is very specific about how he wants his people to live in glory to him. What he wants us to do laid out in scripture that we may bring glory to him. We have a whole Bible from beginning to end about it. And yet, for some reason, he decided to not give us much, hardly any at all, on what we should put on. But yet, it's made such a big deal from certain people, especially the clip that we just heard. But yet, where do you find that in the Bible? You find a lot of reading into the Bible, which is basically just them trying to set up their own standard to run and control people in their own cult. Which is, James, it's spiritually abusive. I mean, if you sat under that ministry, if you sat in that preaching, if you listened to that preaching and it had an impact on you, you've been spiritually abused. That's spiritually abusive. Right? A hundred percent. Yes. And too many times, you know, as preacher boys, we heard that and we thought, man, that's some preaching right there. That's what I want to do. I want to get out and I want to preach like that. I want to give a cool illustration about someone beating a dead horse until it turns into a glue factory. And that was sort of our idol hour of what we were wanting until we started really seeing the Bible for who it was and seeing Jesus for who he was and started searching. And for me, studying after who this Savior is that we call Jesus. And when we start studying him, we don't see Jesus saying these things. We don't see Jesus saying, well, one day that prostitute that was naked, she's going to start dressing right. No, what he said was the Pharisees were the ones that were dressing perfectly and they were perfect on the outside, but they were whitewashed on the inside. And the prostitute is the one he wouldn't have dinner with the thieves. And that's who Jesus hung out with. It's the opposite of what we just heard. Yeah, I'd like to point people back to our episode we did with Amy Miller on biblical modesty. And understand this, that it is what spiritual abuse is really what Jesus hit those Pharisees with. You know, they were committing spiritual abuse on the people. And he handled that. And that actually is the direction we're going to go today in our episode, is the topic of spiritual abuse. And this is one of the aims of the podcast, is to give biblical answers and help for abuse. And in this aspect, we sort of want to dial into spiritual abuse. Now, let me set this up just a tad bit. But I was doing some meditating and thinking on some observations that I have made in the eight-year journey that I've had of leaving the IFB. And just thinking some things, some reading that I had done and thinking through some things. And so a couple weeks ago, I made a post on the RFP fam page, RFP fam, not fan, community group page, about some observations that I had made of coming together with a sort of stages of leaving spiritually abusive community or legalistic church or spiritually abusive church, that kind of thing. And this is not, let me say this, this is not Bible truth. I am not claiming this Bible truth. I'm not setting this as on any part of that. I view this, as we're going to break this down, I view this as basically just an observation and tool to help others understand where they've been, where they may be, and where they can go. And then ultimately, point them back to the scripture. Because here's the trouble, James. Here's one of the big issues with spiritually abusive, spiritual abuse survivors. And that is that it's hard to point them to scripture when they've been spiritually abused. Because when you think of somebody who's been abused, you think of, you know, the weapon that was used against them. When it comes to spiritual abuse, the weapon is the word of God. It's the Bible. Now, me and you would definitely, like, hit home the point that the Bible definitely being misused, misinterpreted, and misapplied. All of those three things together. And for that reason, it turns the Bible into a weapon. And so, whenever you're talking about somebody who's been abused and the Bible being used as that weapon for the abuse, to then automatically go to the Bible, it's going to trigger. And it's going to put in, it's going to bring in those fight or flight safety reaction modes of, and then also even, like, make you want to put your hands up and push it away and just duck for cover. And protect yourself. And so, one of this, this is one of the things that I was trying to think through this, is maybe a way where we can help hold the hand of someone who's been spiritually abused. And let them know that we understand, we care, and it's safe. And then, if we can gently guide and say, listen, I know that this has been hard, but this is where Christ, where God, has actually wanted you to be. This right here is the actual truth that he wanted communicated to you that was not. And that is a gentle and delicate process. And so, for this episode and then the next episode, we're going to talk about this subject. In the next episode, I'm really excited because we're having a guest on that's done much better work on this than I have. And so, this is going to be sort of like an introduction into that to lead into the material that she has as well. So, let's jump into this. You got any comments before we jump into these stages, James? No, I really agree with what you said there because I, even most recently, I know she doesn't listen to this, but my mother-in-law, she came out of the same church my wife did. And there was a lot of abuse financially, spiritual abuse, more of, best way to put it would be just, I don't know, really the best term to put it. But she was really, really hurt from it. And we haven't had a great relationship, me and her, but she came down and was watching the kids during our newest baby edition. And we got to talking about this, and I actually read these eight stages to her. And she made some comments, but she said, I just can't get past the abuse that me and my husband went through, you know, just financially that the church abused them because they were wealthy. And so, going, John even, he said, James, you should have had a great opportunity to take the Bible in. And I probably should have, but I knew that she is so far away from God that it probably would have done more harm than good. And so, I just sort of let her absorb it and talk through it. And so, it was definitely a help to have these during that moment. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, this is eight stages of observation. Again, one of the things, actually, that I enjoyed about being able to share this is some of the comments and feedback that I got sort of led me to another sort of observation. And Rebecca, who we're going to have on next week, actually was already there. And so, I really want her to speak to that part. But that is the fact that people can jump through these stages and be in, like, one stage and then in another stage at the same time. So, let me just sort of break this down. The first stage is what I call the disillusionment stage. In this stage, something happens or something is said that causes some type of disillusionment with the environment you're in, causing you to think that not everything may be right. Something is not quite kosher with this situation. Time frames can vary, but this ultimately leads to the next stage, the questioning stage. But the disillusionment stage, and I think this is sort of, you could look at it, maybe a waking up stage or something that's sort of like, wait a second, or something hits you and it's like, huh. And like I said, time frames can vary because when the disillusionment starts, it could be years before you actually leave. But it's like that slow process of starting. But for some people, that disillusionment hits and it's like, I'm out of here. You know what I'm saying? What do you think about that, James? Yeah. You know, you can also, I like one word that I read on this was the enlightenment stage. Someone whose eyes have been opened. They see something. I see this with my kids when me and Brody were starting to, trying to teach him just a little bit of math. And he was just learning, you know, as a second grader, trying to figure out this. And I taught him the nine trick on your fingers. If it's, you hold down a third finger, it's 27, nine times three is 27. And his mind was blown. And that's sort of how this stage was. You see the light for the first time. Me personally, and that's sort of where we're going to go. We're going to, John's going to talk about the stages. I'm going to give some personal illustrations for me for where I was at in this. And so the disillusionment or enlightenment stage for me was Jack Scott, which we played a couple of his clips now, when he fell into sin. Not fall. Not fall. Not fall. Not fall. When he caused, when he was in sin. When he sinned. Yes. Yes. Yes. When he was caught would be the better word. When he was caught. When he, when that came out, this is someone who was the premier. I mean, everyone, he flew in on a jet, preached a sermon and left on a jet when he came to hot springs and preached at our college. I mean, he was the leader. I mean, he was incredible with the, and even his dynamic and the way he spoke. And, you know, it was sort of like, man, this guy's awesome. So when he was caught and his ministry ended and went to jail, but then shortly after that, within a couple of years, my best friend, which is John's brother. And one of the guys that I was in ministry with in Idaho, both also got caught in sin. Same thing. Teenage girl. And my eye was just opened up to, okay, what is going on? Why is this happening? This is, this has got to be because of some, some underlying, something was taught, something was covered up, something. What, what is this and why is this happening? Why are men causing this unnatural attraction to happen? And they're throwing their families and their lives away for a teenage girl. I just didn't understand it. And so this was the moment in my life where my eyes began to open up and say, okay, there, there's got to be something bigger here to this, um, of what's going on here. Which is why I said the disillusionment stage leads to stage two, which is the questioning stage, which is what you immediately started doing. You started asking why and questioning things. So at some point, questions will start to arise and there may be a latency period for some to ask the questions mentally, uh, and be afraid to verbalize those questions. Uh, ultimately those questions either do not get answered or are answered very inadequately, which will trigger stage three. But let's look at, uh, you have any comments on the questioning stage or do you think that we should just move to the next one? Well, for me, stage two and stage three were really at the exact same moment in my life. Um, I began questioning and the leaving stage happened. Um, this is when I moved away from Idaho. Um, I had spent eight years, uh, four years in college, four years in Idaho, eight years of my professional life, college and afterwards. Um, in this and, and the questioning started to happen. So I just thought, and my pastor, he, when I told him I was leaving, his question was what church are you going to? And I said, there's not a church I'm going to. I'm just, we're just, we know it's time for us to be done. And in his mind, he could not understand. Well, why are you leaving without a church? I just knew that I couldn't be in that environment anymore. I couldn't be where we were at. And so the best thing for me to do was completely remove myself, completely get away and start seeking God on my own. And so that was that leaving stage, questioning stage all at the same time. I know others who it takes four or five, six years, but when the question in the leaving. So I'm not saying it has to be immediate, like for me, but just in my situation, you know, it was about a nine month leaving process for me. Yeah. So the leaving stage, this is the point, this is stage three, the point where the individual or family realizes that they no longer belong or agree with the religious community slash cult that they've been a part of. And they begin to make efforts to leave this said group. In more toxic environments, their questions or efforts may be met with the group actually moving to expel them, therefore attempting to maintain a moral high ground with remaining members. Now, I did not experience this. I've heard a few that have experienced this type of thing. And James was just saying something about his leaving that even brought something to mind for me. And that was sort of a very similar experience. And that experience was that whenever we left in the ministry we were at in West Virginia, ultimately the last IFB place that we were at, we were the same way. We were not actually leaving to go to another ministry. And they were showing, expressing concern for us that that was what was going to happen. And why would we do that? And at the time, I don't know if I could have articulated it or even would have said it. But it wasn't just leaving that ministry or leaving that church. We were leaving the IFB. Did we realize it at the moment? No. But I think that that's what was – it was the same way. It was like we needed to get away. We needed to heal. And jumping back into another ministry was not the thing. Now, I know some people are leaving these places and they're not leaving from a ministry perspective. But that's our perspective. The leaving stage is something that – let me say this. This was one of the differences where I knew I was not in a toxic, spiritually abusive community. Because when you leave a spiritually abusive community, that community and the leadership cannot understand why you are leaving. And for that reason, typically are not okay with it. Now, they may publicly show that it's all kosher. But in private, they're not happy about it. When I was here at this church and the pastor that had a great impact on me, my former pastor here, and we'd have people leave, his attitude – and this was genuine. Not just to their faces, but also to me later and to the church congregation when asked about it. When they would leave, he would say, you know what? It's just a different place. And he said, I want to make sure that we show them that we love them and are okay with them leaving. And he said, you never know. Down the road, it may be – God may orchestrate things to bring them back to us. And that was a completely, radically different perspective on people leaving your church than I'd ever seen before. And so that's when I knew that I was no longer in a spiritually abusive community. Yeah, and I can so relate, John, because when me and my wife left Idaho, we weren't leaving the independent fundamental Baptist movement. We were leaving to heal, recover, get our family in order. That was the reason we left. But in an essence, when we got – and we did leave and we began to process things, we realized everything we were experiencing was because of the IFB movement. So in essence, we left this church, and at the same time, we were leaving the movement, and we just didn't realize it. So I can really relate to that. Now, this goes to stage four, and in leaving someplace that you've poured your life into, you've spent years with your family there, this is where I called the grieving stage. So the leaving stage leads to the grieving stage. As strange as it may sound to outsiders, for those leaving, they did have relationships and many positive memories within that religious community. Feelings of loss will begin to set in. And I want to encourage those that have experienced that, maybe in the middle of it, do not feel wrong or guilty when experiencing these feelings. Instead, process them, for they are proper. One of the most frustrating things that I experienced was leaving some of the close friendships we had there in West Virginia. Because we had really gotten close friends and, you know, to the point where we would call each other family. And leaving that, you are leaving something. You are leaving. And so, whenever there is a loss of something that is dear to you, there is a grief involved in it. And even when that thing has hurt you, if there is something that was there that was once close to you, there will probably be a grief in it. Now, there were some that actually reached out and said, you know what, I understand all these stages, but the grieving stage just was not me. It never really, you know, never felt it. I get that. I get that. Some have, though. And I think for those that have, that is a big one that needs to be, you know, just acknowledged and encouraged to accept it. Yeah. For me personally, the grieving stage, it never happened. I am more of a cerebral theological, not theological, but I want to answer questions. If something is not right, I want to get the answer to it. And so, when these questions began to arise, the leaving happened, my mind immediately went to the education. Okay. How can I learn what's going on here? Now, my wife, on the other hand, went through the grieving. My wife wrote a letter. She did everything that she was going to do to close that chapter. She grieved in a way that I couldn't understand. I couldn't relate. And so, my wife went through this. So, in essence, I went through it with my wife. But it was a process. And we'll get to more of that in a minute when we get to the healing stage and the bitterness stage. Because that's where, as her husband, as the person that I devoted my life to her, I wanted to help her get through this. And so, I arranged some things to try to help her. And that ultimately, it helped me as well. But we'll get through that. So, that was sort of the grieving was more for my wife. John, is your experience similar to that? No. I think that I was sort of thinking whenever you were saying you didn't experience that. I was sitting there thinking from my knowledge of your family. I was thinking, yeah, you're exactly right. You didn't. But I knew for a fact that Allie had. Okay. And, you know, I think that it might have been the other way around with my family. Because I think that I experienced more of the grieving stage than my wife had. Because in our situation, my wife was actually leaving to come to where her family was. So, in that, it was very much like a, you know, exciting, happy time. And for me, it was like sort of a, you know, and then it began the process of like, you know, where are we going next? Stage five. Which is the education stage. So, this stage may vary widely for some. Because many have blended this stage with the question stage. But at this moment, the individual will begin to read, listen. And in this climate we have, listen to podcasts. And study what is the right moral and biblical way of doing things. This can happen rapidly or slowly. But inevitably, it will lead to the next stage, which we'll get to in a minute. But the education stage is something that, man, I stayed in. I was just like, my pastor used to describe it as someone who was drinking out of the water fountain or the fire hydrant. You know, just sitting there, just taking it all in as much as you could. What do you think, James? Yeah. This, for me, was the education moment was I had to figure out, okay, who am I? Where am I going to land? I want to be in ministry. I know I'm called in ministry. What area do I want to be in? And ultimately, the Southern Baptist Convention, the SBC churches, is where my niche was. You know, I related to them. I could relate to how they run their church. And so, that's just sort of where I fell in. But then, even inside of there, the same things kept coming up. Okay. Our pastor wasn't using the King James. Well, is it wrong? I mean, hey, the King James is the only way. How can I be in a church, even though I know this is where my family is supposed to be at to heal? Where can we? How is this right? And so, John said, James, listen to this, the Ankerberg show. So, it's a very lengthy show, but it was the King James only argument with James White and several other men, Sam Gipps and things like that. And I began a process of listening to that show over, I took about an episode every couple of days. I would listen, and I would just write down notes, and I would begin studying, and I would begin on my own figuring out what is right, what is wrong, what is true, what is not. I began grabbing good books. John started sending me books. I had friends that started sending me books. I started this education process for me because I knew that I needed to figure out what I believed. And it is so important for us to realize that we can't ride our mom and dad's coattails. We can't ride the education that we were given in college. It must continue on. It must continue to go deeper and deeper ourselves. We just can't continue to re-preach the sermons that we heard as kids. We've got to develop messages. We've got to go deeper. We've got to disciple others. And the only way we can disciple others is by, first and foremost, we ourselves being rooted and grounded in the truth, which is God's Word. That's really good. That's really good. That's really good. And I totally agree. This education stage was something that I stayed in for quite a while and was very influential for me. I was thankful for the resources that God has made available and the technology that we have. YouTube, podcasts, ministries that allow their sermons to be free downloaded. Books, just like a lot of books to be recommended and read. So this leads to the anger stage. Okay. And so the anger stage is realizing that you have been taught wrongly or led inerrant paths. And because of this, even led others down a wrong path. And this will cause in most people feelings of anger to rise. Many outsiders interpret this to be bitterness, but do not be alarmed. This is not bitterness. Bitterness, although it can lead to bitterness. This point in the journey will bring you to a fork in the road, however, because choosing how you will handle this anger properly can lead you into bitterness or lead you into healing. This anger stage is very important. Because as you begin the education and you start to realize these areas that you were taught wrongly, it breeds anger. Why does it breed anger? And the reason why it breeds anger is this. Because for many of us, I don't want to say all of us, but for quite a few, much of our identity is wrapped up in what we believe. Or how we believe. So when you realize that your belief system was based on either straight out lies, misunderstandings, versus taking out of context, man's opinions, then you will respond in a way that feels like you've been robbed of things. Which causes anger. Before, James, you make a comment, I want to point people to this. If you're having trouble, understand what I'm saying. One of the best illustrations that I can point you to, to understand what I'm trying to get across, is watch the Disney movie Tangled. Okay? Watch the Disney movie Tangled. Do you say that? You're probably like, what? You're silly. No. I am dead serious about this. You watch the Disney movie Tangled about Rapunzel being up in the tower, being lied to for years by her mother. And you watch the scene when she finds out who she is and how her mother has lied to her for so many years. And you watch her response. And then maybe you can understand why people react the way that they react when they go through the education stage. Tangled really nailed it with that. And one of my favorites, too. So... Well, there you go. I love Maximus the Horse, but anyway. This stage for me, John, I wouldn't say me and my wife went through it initially. This stage happened, it was about a year or so after we left and we were working at Chick-fil-A. And a buddy of mine had left the church that we were at. And we knew where we were at. I had went through, you know, I hadn't fully educated myself. But we were understanding where we were at and where our trajectory was going. And God had really done a lot of work in us. And a friend of mine, he called me and he said, hey, you should go back and listen to the last week's sermon that our former pastor preached. And I did. I shouldn't have. I shouldn't have, but I did. And about 15 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes of the sermon was an illustration of me in his sermon while I was there. And the anger in me began to come out because most of it wasn't true. There was a couple of things where he used some funny things that, you know, the big redhead guy that liked to take a sledgehammer to walls because there was construction and stuff. But then he began to use this other illustration. And I just really got upset. I got angry because, you know, you know what you're saying is just to try to prove, make you look better, make you look better in front of your people. Still, still people from that church still reach out to me and still consider them friends. But it was just hearing that, seeing that, it brought the anger out. And I don't know, it just was it was hard for me to hear that from him who I looked up to. Yeah. And I think it's really important, too, for people to understand that angry or anger or being angry is not sinful. Anger is not sin. Scripture tells us to be angry and do not sin. So can you sin? In anger? Yes. Absolutely. The presence of anger itself does not constitute sin. Now, when anger is left undealt with and left to ferment, it turns to bitterness. Bitterness is sinful. So this is where I say that you have a fork in the road. Because when you really recognize your anger, okay, you can either, you either seek help or you find help or that help is there, that anger is dealt with. And the healing processes are there taking place. And you're dealing with your anger. Or it's ignored. And that anger ferments. And that anger ferments. And that anger stews. And bitterness begins to take over. As said above, this next phase will be very important in your journey. And we strongly encourage you at this moment to seek a strong church community and or biblical counselor to help you. Find somebody you do trust. Well, like I said at the beginning, spiritual abuse is sometimes, most of the time, a place where maybe a church is triggering to you. Maybe someone who is going to give you biblical scriptures is going to be triggering to you. So find somebody you can trust that can point you to healing instead of letting that become bitterness. Because here's what happens in bitterness. And I want to point people back to the episode I did many episodes ago, I think episode 16, where I did an episode with Nathan Cravat of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast on bitterness. But here's what bitterness ultimately does. Bitterness takes that thing that you are rightly probably angry at. Is it right to be angry at the wrong done to you? Absolutely. But what bitterness does is it takes that anger that's been done to you and then makes you angry at everything and everyone around you. So then you are aiming that anger that started with what was legitimate, what was done to you, and you're now aiming it at innocence. You're aiming it at those that are innocent of hurting you and you're now inflicting or hurling ammunition, weapons of anger towards them. And ultimately, it drives those that love you away. And it's a sad process. So, you know, this is where I say it's a fork in the road. You can go towards healing. Some go towards bitterness. James? Yeah. You know, this stage, we went toward healing, me and my wife, and we just put this behind. It was a tough process, but we did. But this is where, when I said earlier about my mother-in-law, she went from enlightenment, questioning, leaving, straight to anger, bitterness. There was no grieving. There was no education. It was just straight to anger. I'm mad. Bitterness was there. She even told myself, she said, I am at the bitterness, anger stage, and I don't know if I'll ever get over it. She said, because I'm just so mad at what was done to me and to my family. And so this is where, for me, this healing was a process for me and my wife. And so when I understood where I was at, really, because the biggest thing for me and my family was the King James-only argument. And so that's why we did those six episodes with it, and we're going to do some more later eventually. But when we began looking at that and talking through that, my wife, because she was raised, her pastor told her, if I ever use anything other than the King James, rip up your certificate. Send me your ordination certificate back. Get rid of everything, because the King James is the only way. And so when the first time I remember buying my wife an ESV, she said, it's hard for me to follow along with a pastor because he's using ESV. And so I went to the store, bought her one, and she put it in that Bible case because she didn't want people to read the outside of it that said ESV because she was just ashamed. Even that little bit was just a shame for her because she didn't really understand what was going on. And so I made a point two Thanksgivings ago. We went back to Arkansas. So we sat down with her pastor, and we went to lunch, and we spent three hours just talking through his journey and talking through because it was just like you just heard from Jack Scott. The preaching against women wearing pants, the preaching against the modesty, he did all of that. And so to see her pastor's wife sitting there in a pair of pants when he made names and called her sister names for wearing pants and seeing all these things was just built up resentment, anger, hatred. And she began to say, Brother Eric, sorry, I name dropped. I was trying not to. When she began to say, Brother Eric, this is not what you told me. Like, I went through your entire, I was saved in your church. I went through your entire ministry. I went to your college. I went through all this, and this is not what you said. And with grace, he explained to her his journey, and it made sense to my wife. And that was the healing that she needed because this was what she was caught up on. And so sometimes it's confronting people. Sometimes it's just sitting down and having a conversation, whether you agree with them or not. And it's having these hard things. And this reminds you now, this was six, seven years after we had left, almost eight years after we had left the college is when we're having this conversation. You know, three years removed from the IFB, we're just now having this conversation. And so I'm not saying you leave and you go and you have those conversations. You're probably going to be upset, angry, and when you have those conversations, things are being said. But once you've settled down, you understand, you were able to process. Then it's time to go back and have those conversations with people. Yeah. And this is, this healing stage, I think, can take, I mean, it's really a lifetime journey. I mean, I'd say I'm in a good place. But the interesting thing about it is there's, you know, every now and again, there's something that comes up, whether listening to it in a message or doing personal Bible study or preparation for a message that comes across. And it's just like, whoa. And I realize that there's some healing that needs to be done in my part in that area. And so this is what I think comes to the final stage. I call it the helping stage. The final stage in this process is the culmination of all your experience. And at this point, you'll learn it is God's divine purpose for you that experiencing the hurts you have been through. And that is, as helped me when I heard Tony Evans say this, to use the good, the bad, and the ugly of your life to help others and their situation and point them to the love and grace of our Savior. You know, the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast started up. Eric Skorzynski started the Preacher Boys podcast. And then all kinds of stuff has started after that. You've got blogs out there. You've got other podcasts like us and now the RFP Network. And you've got other people doing these things because they've realized they've come through a journey and a process. And what do they want to do with it? They recognize that there's others out there that's either going to go through it or going through it or have been through it that can maybe benefit from some of the things that they've learned. And so they want to help. And that's what I would encourage you to do. God has, you have good in your life and your life experience and your history. You have bad in your life experience and history. And you have ugly in your life experience and history. An amazing thing about our good, gracious God is that he wants to use all of it for his glory and his purpose. And most likely to impact someone else. You know, Romans 8, 28 is an often used verse and sometimes used out of context. But God works all things together for good to those that love him, to those who are called according to his purpose. You know, all things are not necessarily good. But he takes those things and works them for good. And so I would encourage those, strive for this. Now, not everybody that's in these phases and these stages need to be helping people. Let me just say that, okay? Some of us need to recognize we're not yet ready to be helping people, okay? You may do more damage to someone if you try to get to the helping stage a little bit too early. But understand that that may be the ultimate goal is turning that around to help someone else. James? Yeah, and I agree 100% with everything you just said, John. Ultimately, we get to the point where the journey we've went through, we want to help someone else out with that journey. That's struggling, that's hurting, that's questioning, whatever it may be, we want to help naturally. I mean, God designed us to be people who create other people in multiple ways, through offsprings, but also through discipleship. Discipleship is simply taking a brother or sister by the hand, walking with life through them, and explaining the Bible with them. Okay, what more can you do with that? And also with healing is taking someone through their journey of healing, hand in hand, and processing life with them. That's what it is, is discipleship. And we have failed that in the church. We have failed in the discipleship, and we've got to get back to it because that's where this healing will happen. And discipleship, I think that really, John, I was thinking about this the other day, the reason the IFB doesn't disciple is because if they did, it would reveal their wrongdoings. It would reveal their false standards, their false things. If they actually implemented discipleship in a biblical manner, it would reveal to the people what they are doing that is unbiblical, and their people would, all of a sudden, their eyes would be opened, the enlightenment would happen. And so discipleship is simply walking together, hand in hand, helping other people, and that is how God designed us. And so this is a huge step, and this is something that I'm glad that I'm a part of. I'm glad I'm a part of this, the For Freedom podcast, and a part of the RFP network to be able to help others. I don't feel like I'm even worthy to be a part of it. Or, you know, when I think of Brian Edwards, I know of Brian when I was a kid, and Craig would come and preach at our church, and his sister and all of his family. I mean, they were legends to me. They were awesome. And to think that we were asked to be a part of the RFP network, it's mind-blowing to me. I'm just honored to be there, and hopefully our stories can relate to someone, and we can help someone on a journey. Just one person would be great. Yeah, and that's the mission. I mean, Galatians 5.1, it is for freedom that Christ has set you free. Do you get that? It is for freedom. What's the purpose he set us free for? For freedom. Therefore, do not be undertaken again in the yoke of bondage. Don't return to slavery. Don't return to it. You're free. Christ has set you free. You know, James, you brought up that aspect of discipleship, and we're closing. You brought up that aspect of discipleship. You know, biblical discipleship is actually contrary and tears down the pastor-centric view of ministry in the IFP, because what is biblical discipleship? Biblical discipleship is believers discipling others to disciple other believers. It is spreading it out all amongst the church instead of pointing everybody to one person. Instead, it's getting everybody growing and learning from each other, pointing each other to Christ, pointing each other to God in the Scriptures from each other. It's one another Christianity, not pastor another Christianity. You know, it's that whole idea of being man-of-God-centric is antithetical to biblical discipleship. And that's what, that was a great point you brought up. But, you know, that's where we want to sort of stop today. We hope that this has been helpful. This is really where our hearts are at. I mean, we really shared with you our hearts today. And I'm excited about next week, because next week we're going to have Rebecca Drumsta on here. And this is something there where I've been thinking about this for the past year and just really getting to articulate it. She's been doing this work for a lot longer and actually been fine-tuning it and getting it done, and she's got a model put together that is fantastic. And I want to point you to it. So next week we're going to have her on to talk about the SID model. And so I am very, very much looking forward to it. James, you got any closing comments? Oh, man, I'm good. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening today to the For Freedom podcast. And until next time, to God, not man worship, be the glory. Thank you for listening to the For Freedom podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give a rating, leave a comment, or share it on Facebook or Twitter. To find more helpful resources for your journey through the independent fundamental Baptist world, check out RFPNetwork.org, where you can find this podcast and others, such as the Recovering Fundamentals podcast, the RFWP podcast, the Young Baptist podcast, the Church Split, the Preacher's Kids podcast, the 26 Letters podcast, and the RFP en Espanol. God bless. God bless.

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