121. Freedom In The Church - Abuse with Ryan George

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Seyfried and Brett Martin. And welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. Thank you for being with us today. We've got a great interview lined up for you in just a minute. But James, how has life been treating you? Brett, it's been so good. We are having a great time in ministry. We just, I did my first baptism here at this church. A young lady came up to me and wanted to join the church and get baptized. And so that was an awesome Sunday for us. And then we just had a senior luncheon today. So I got to play with some gambling bingo ladies and gentlemen. And we had a good turnout down there. We've got our marriage conference coming up this weekend for Valentine's Day. We've got a friend of ours, Jason Riddle, that's going to be coming and speaking to us. And so I'm getting his notes together and slides ready. We've got, I think, 10 or 11 couples signed up to be there. So 20-something people. It's going to be a great time. And just looking forward to investing in marriages and our church. And we've got, man, just so much going on. We're wide open. I've got a deacon ordination this coming Sunday. Looking at starting to begin some new things at the church with the new year. And, man, it's just been doing really good. We're wide open, full steam ahead. And, man, it's been great. How about you, man? How's your end going? Man, we've been blowing and going and busy with all the stuff that we've got. We've just started a project here at our church. We're going to expand our fellowship hall. And, of course, we're a good Southern Baptist church. Amen. So we picked the committee last night and called everybody. Everybody agreed. And we're going to expand our fellowship hall, build a new deck. It's a big project. But we've got money in the bank. We're ready to spend it and put it in, invest it into the church. We're growing. We need more space. The worship band that we're starting has been practicing a couple times a week. And we're looking at April. That's getting where we can have, you know, worship services every couple of months. And hopefully that will lead into having worship, you know, contemporary type music more often. And, man, just a lot of stuff going on. Our connect groups have started back up. And people are excited about our small groups that we've got going on. We've got a new ministry starting. I've got a meeting with our children's committee tonight to discuss possibly starting a new ministry with our kids on Sunday mornings. And so just a lot of stuff going on. We're in talks with missionaries to go out of the country. And so, you know, we've got a lot of things going on in our church. So this is one of the – I mean, we're only halfway through the week, and it's one of the busiest weeks that I've had in a long time. So – but we're ready to go. But not only do we have a lot going on in our churches, man, the horizon looks busy for the podcast. Man, yeah, we're going to be together in June. We booked a house together. So me and my family and Brett and his family are going to be in Indianapolis, Indiana, go and see the statue of Jack Howells and pray to his feet. We're taking the Holy Land tour to see the Mecca of First Baptist Hammond, Indiana. And so we are excited about that, to say the least. But no, we are – White dress shirt. Yes, white dress shirt, black tie, black suit. We're good, man. It's going to be great. No, we're going up there for the National Convention, for the Southern Baptist Convention. And so we've decided to split the cost of a hotel. And instead of doing a hotel, we're going to do a house. And so me and my family, him and his family are going to be there. We're going to do a special in-person live – it's not live – so we're going to record it in person. And typically we're always via the Zoom or Teams or whatever it is. And so that's going to be an exciting time. We're going to do that. And then, Brett, after that, we've got – what's coming up after that? Let's see. We've got the meetup in November coming up. For the sake of the gospel, it is going to be at Hope Church, Catoosa. That's northern Georgia, but it's right outside Chattanooga, Tennessee. And we're looking forward to being there, being with the RFP crew and some of the other podcasts in our network. We'll be together. Well, we say some of the other networks, but last time it was just us because we're the supreme alpha and omega podcast. That's right. That's right. We were solo representing. So we might have to do that again, and that's okay. It'll be all right. We're good. Yeah. And then one year from now, Brett, we're getting close to the exact one year. We will be back in the Holy Lands. And, man, it's been great to be able to see those pictures from one year ago come back up on our memories. Our website is live on the Yael Tours, and I've been forgetting, Brett. I've got to remember to do this. It's been busy. I've got to put a link to that on our website to the Israel trip. And so, man, that's coming up. I'm excited. We've got some good excitement going on in our church about people wanting to go, and the church I met has not been before and haven't really talked about it. And so we're having an interest meeting in just a couple of weeks and excited about seeing the people go and experience the Holy Lands like we did. I'm excited, Brett, on my side to be able to view it from their side, from the side of seeing what we're about to see and sort of the eye-opening moments where they see Scripture and be like, oh, man, that's the mountain that Jesus was on. That's the part that I'm really excited about is just seeing the Bible come to life for them. I just recently preached on biblical authority, and one of my points was archaeology backs up the Bible. And I was able to take some of the pictures that I had taken on the trip and go through those pictures and lay out some of the archaeological evidence that backs up the Bible. And that the archaeological evidence not only backs up the Old Testament, but it backs up the New Testament, too. But to be there and to see it and experience it, there's nothing like it. Me and you are going to be the lead pastors on this trip, and it is an experience that I can't wait. My wife is coming this time. I'm excited to get to share that with her. And we want to share it with listeners, the For Freedom podcast. And so if you're a listener and you are interested in coming to Israel with us, contact us. Let us know. Check out the website. Read the itinerary. See where we're going. I, after we come back from a break, I'm going to push this guy to do a little mini series on Israel. Let's do it, man. Because I love talking about it. Yeah. And it'd be really cool to do that. But right now, before us, we're in a series on the church. Yeah. And it's been good. We've been talking about abuse and abuse in the church. We had our interview with Jim Neuheiser last week. And this interview, Brett, wasn't actually part of one that we had planned. I had received an email from a media group, a book publishing company. And they had a guy that was looking to do some interviews and looking to get his new book out. And so I was leery at first. You can ask Brett. I was, I don't know if I like this idea or not. Someone I don't know. I don't know who they are. You know, I'm a little particular when it comes to who we have on the podcast. And so I began looking into it. They sent me his book. It's called Hurt and Healed by the Church. And I was like, man, we're in the church series. This is pretty good. And then his subtitle is Redemption and Reconstruction After Spiritual Abuse. So then that really got my thoughts. And so they sent me and Brett the book. We began looking through it. Brett's further along. I think he's six or seven chapters in. I'm just a couple of chapters in. I'm right behind him. And I mean, it was probably the first chapter I read. I called Brett and I said, hey, we're having him on the podcast. And then Brett, he's gotten further along and he's enjoying it. He quotes it a little bit. So we called in this guy named Ryan George. His dad is a pastor. And he's going to tell his story. And man, we are so excited about you hearing this. And his book will be on sale. You can preorder it now. And we'll mention that a little bit in the podcast. But without further ado, let's introduce Ryan to the show. Let's do it. Well, we were excited about having Mr. Ryan George here with us. Ryan has a very interesting story. And he's going to be sharing his story here with us today as we continue through our In the Church series. And we talk about abuse. Ryan is an author. And he's written a book called Scared to Life. Sorry. Word on the Street. And he's a blogger of Explorience.org. He's a co-founder and co-leads a group called Dude Group, a spiritual adventure community of Blue Ridge Mountain, where he lives with his wife, Crystal, and his daughter, Dionne. Is that right, Dionne? Dionne. Dionne. All right, Dionne. It goes by D. We just call her D. Perfect. And so we're excited about having him on here. And he just recently wrote a book, written a book. I don't know how you would say that. I'm not a grammar guy. That's why I don't write books. But it's called Hurt and Healed by the Church, Redemption and Reconstruction After Spiritual Abuse. And so, Ryan, he is a great guy. This book has been great. Me and Brett have been reading through it a little bit. And we're excited about having him on today. So, Ryan, why don't you give us an introduction of who you are, what you come out of, and just sort of tell us a little bit about who and your life in the independent fundamental Baptist world. Yeah. So, the way most people know me is I'm an international freelance advertising assistant. So, I work for companies across North America and the United Kingdom. I'm also an adrenaline junkie. I've been to all seven continents in both polar circles. And so, Explorience is my blogging about all the places I've found God around the world. But I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia with my wife of 23 years, Crystal. She's the director of missions and women's ministry at the church where we've been for 17 years. We have a daughter in college. You mentioned Diani. She's studying to be a social worker. I am the son of a sexual predator pastor in the IFB movement. I'm the brother to five other homeschool graduates. I'm uncle to 19 nieces and nephews. Yeah. I co-founded and co-led Dude Group that you mentioned there. It's a group of men from multiple churches in our town that we meet outdoors. We study the Word of God around a fire in the summertime around picnic tables and just ask God to read us. There's no table eaters. There's no teaching. It's a very even disciples discipling each other. And then on Sundays, I serve in the parking lots at my church where I've been serving for 17 years in neon vests. But most people know me as Adventure Guy. But I'm here because one of the biggest events in my life has been reconstructing my faith after being abused by my father, who has been shown to have abused a bunch of people. Wow. That's what a great intro. That's awesome. I want to say real quick that you picked the perfect name for that discipleship group. Because when you said build a fire and read the Bible, I was like, dude. That's awesome. That's awesome. So it's like, that's really cool. Yeah. So you've been to both polar caps. Got a question for you off topic here. Are you a flat earther? Is the earth flat or is it round? You've been there. You should have seen the curvature of the earth or maybe the non-curvature of the earth. I've seen the curvature of the earth. I've seen, I've been places where the glaciers are growing. I've been places where the glaciers are shrinking. I've seen climate change up close, up in the polar areas. It's kind of scary how fast it's happening. But yeah, last January, I did survival training up in the Arctic and had to learn how to spend the night without stuff to start a fire or anything like that. How to do shelter, all that stuff. It was really cool. I was trained by a guy who trains the Finnish army. He was just a really rad dude. Love it. Love it. So you heard it first here on the For Freedom podcast that the earth is round. It's not flat. And we have a veteran of the world that knows that. And so today, of course, we're talking about your reconstruction journey, your faith journey. A lot of people, when bad things happen in church, they abandon church altogether. They abandon the world of faith. And your story is a little bit different than that. And so I'm excited about jumping through that because deconstruction is a word that is a hot button topic right now. People are leaving their faith in drones. Some major people in the world of faith who were once leaders have left their faith. And so you are connected to Bill Gothard and some of the things that were featured on the Shiny Happy People. And you spent the first 20 years of your life as an independent fundamental Baptist. Your dad was a pastor or currently is a pastor. I don't know. I know there's some stuff going on there. But for anyone who isn't familiar with the IFB, what was your connection to the Duggar family and the Shiny Happy People? What was the influence that they had? Just to sort of give them a context of where you're at and what you were raised under. Yeah, so I didn't know the Duggars. I've read their biographies and it's like reading stuff out of my own life. But we were both trained by Bill Gothard and his materials. I still remember my first day ever training under Bill Gothard because that was my first time ever having a pizza sub from Subway. Like it's funny the way your brain puts things together. But it's a movement within the IFB movement, right, which is a movement within the Baptist denomination. And so as you keep drilling down, my dad was another level below that in the Bible Baptist fellowship, which I think is based out of Missouri. But a lot of the experiences that the Duggar girls had, definitely the beliefs that they had, that's right out of my life. That's how my sisters had to be. That's how I had to be. In the same way as the Duggars, cover up is the first response rather than confession, right? Using theology as a weapon was the same. And some of the stuff that Gothard has proposed, like put in prints, like not just like somebody heard him say, but like in his material saying that sexual abuse victims should accept their role as an abuse victim so that they could show off God's forgiveness for his anointed who abused them. And concepts like that just devastating, obviously not the heart of Jesus. And so I relate. I don't I have met them. I feel like I know them after reading their biographies and stuff, but I I relate a lot to what they grew up in for sure. Well, you know, your father was an IFB pastor and you write about, you know, all the all the stuff you had to do, like going to church four times a week, eight times a week in college. And, man, I personally I can definitely relate to that because I remember growing up, going to school and I was at the church every single day. There was not one day I was not up there sometimes all day. And so I definitely can relate to that. And, you know, it's funny you talk about Bill Gothard because I never heard about Bill Gothard till I went to House Anderson. And then so I never heard about him, but I heard his name, but I still didn't know anything about him. And then I watched the documentary about shiny, happy people and I listened to what he taught. And then my mind started to flash back to my pastor. And I'm like, that's where my pastor got that stuff from. All about, you know, about the, you know, the baby and the circle and breaking the breaking the the will and not the spirit and all that stuff. All I was like, man, my pastor never said the name Bill Gothard. I guess he just took credit for all of it, but all the stuff that that that he taught so much of it came from Bill Gothard. So I didn't know the influence that he had had on myself growing up. So I definitely can relate to some of the things you went through. Another thing that I can relate to you is you write about how your father was verbally, physically and spiritually abusive to you. And where whereas your father was your pastor, I experienced child abuse growing up and and from from one of my stepfathers and my pastor never physically abused me. But looking back hindsight 2020, you can see the manipulation that that took place. And but man, after everything that you went through, so many people, they go through something like that. And then just like Jim Neuhauser said, there's a there's a pendulum where you swing away from that and you over create over correct and you go too far to the other side. I want to know how your childhood led to your faith reconstruction, because so many times it's so easy to get bitter and stay bitter and and blame. Just like throw the baby out with the bath water and say, I'm done with religion. I'm quote unquote deconstructing. I'm finished. I'm walking away. How did your childhood lead to your faith reconstruction? Before I answer, I just want to say I understand why people respond that way. And I give a lot of grace to that. Absolutely. If I'd been tortured in a prison camp in South Korea or North Korea, I don't think I'd want to go back to North Korea. Yeah. And so one of the things I think I've been blessed is that I've had resources and relationships come into my life at a preemptive time before I knew I was going to need it. When different bombshells were going to drop so that I didn't have to go, as you describe, a pendulum all the way out. But how it prepared me, my childhood kept showing me over and over again that one, the rules were arbitrary and two, that they didn't work. Right. If the person who's teaching you that this stuff will keep you innocent until marriage or this this will bless your business or whatever. And then you find out that that person is completely the opposite. It didn't stop him from molesting people in my church. It didn't stop him from abusing me. It didn't stop him from who knows what he's done to my mom. I don't even know. And so it just showed me that this this is all a facade. Like it's and what happened was is right about the time that I started leaving IFB, I made the choice to for my wife because she didn't grow up IFB and we got married. I brought her to an IFB church. And so I said, hey, our next church, I'll let you pick for a little while. And as we started to go, I started to meet people who were just so in love with Jesus. And it wasn't fake, like it wasn't something they put on for Sunday and then took off and went back to wherever. It wasn't, you know, a regiment of how many services or what music they listen to or what they wore or whatever. Any of that, what Bible they read. They were just in love with Jesus. And I kept meeting more and more of these people who were asking questions I never heard growing up and and showing me things in scripture I never would have seen. And Jesus became so personal. One of the reasons I've gone around the world is because Jesus promised, if you seek me, you will find me if you seek with your whole heart. And Solomon wrote in Proverbs that it's the glory of God to hide a matter, but it's the glory of kings to discover it. And so my name, Ryan, means king in a lot of languages. So me as a little king, what I wanted to do is I wanted to go find all these aspects of Christ's character that he's revealed about himself all over the world. And as I did that, he showed up very, very personal. And I didn't need rules to approach him. I didn't have to hire someone to go into the holy of holies. I didn't have to, you know, jump through any hoops. He was just there. And so I think what my youth showed me was how empty and frail that whole system is and was for me in comparison to what I was now experiencing with Jesus. That's great. And, you know, I can affirm with Brett as well. You know, I wasn't abused, but there were some things that after watching the documentary, Shining Happy People, I realized, wow, my pastor or my college president or whatever it was, they got that teaching from Bill Gothard. And it just it shows the power of influence. It shows the power that men can have on people, which which really begins to as we think through that and we think through your life and some things in your book. One of the things that you wrote about in your book was that your dad, as your pastor, was not able to confess his sins to anyone in his church or he would lose his spiritual authority. You know, this is such a dangerous thing because when we get to this point, we have this this we've elevated man to such a high standard that he has no way to even talk to things, talk through things in a small group setting or in a one on one setting. So what is so dangerous about having a pastor who claims he can't tell his sins to anyone else? That's a great question. The Holy of Holies is broken down and we're we've elevated this person so high and he can't go to anybody. So what would be your response to that? Before I answer, I just got to say, you know, in the Holy of Holies in the Old Testament, they put a rope around the guy's ankle in case he wasn't ready so that they could pull him out. And I wonder how many of these IFB pastors need a rope around their ankle because we're going to have to pull him out. Right. But the reason it seems so unhealthy to me was because Jesus, little brother, James, said that confessing our sins is how we're healed. So we can't be healthy unless we're confessing. And modern psychologists, whether they're biblical or secular or not, would agree with that. Right. The more that we confess whatever's in our heart, whether that's sin, whether that's insecurities, whatever it is, the easier it becomes to tell other people. And more people, more people. And we find health in that. And so if the pastor can't be healthy, which is what that means. Right. If you're not confessing, you can't be healthy. And if you're not healthy, then you are infecting a church with unhealth. And so it's no wonder I had a friend of mine back in the IFB movement. She was abused. We have mutual pastor friends of our of our dads were abusers. One guy just committed suicide after he got caught. And she's like, why? It's so ironic. This is happening. I said, it's not ironic. These guys aren't healthy. They can't be until you until you confess your sins or even just confess your worries or confess your insecurities or confess the things that you your doubts. One of the things you guys know this from just our short time together is that the idea that IFB people have faith is ridiculous. You can't have faith unless you have fear, doubt or both. And so if you don't, they're so sure of everything. They have IFB people have a certainty conference every year, which is just a declaration that we don't have faith because we've got everything figured out. And so if they're not healthy, how can the people that they lead be healthy? Yeah, that's so powerful. And to know that, you know, right before we got on this call, I had a discipleship with me and a younger guy. And we literally just talked through what we're going on in our life, the things he's struggling with, the things I'm struggling with. You know, I'm the pastor of the church and we're walking through together. We're doing life together, which is the model of what Jesus did. And as pastors, we can't get away from that. As Christians, we can't get away from that. We've got to have people in our life that we're pouring into. They're pouring into us there. You know, I ask our men, our leadership all the time. What am I doing? What do I need to do better? What have I said that was wrong? Was I too hard on something? Was I not hard enough on something? Like I'm, I'm constantly asking these questions because I need that feedback. I need that growth in my life. And if I'm in error, I need to correct that. I need to change that. I need to work on those things. And so as a shepherd, right, you're trying to show the sheep how to do it. Yeah. So if, if the, if the shepherd never does that in front of people, how are they going to learn how to do that? Yeah. And if, if the sheep are going to be healthy, they have to learn about it from the shepherd. Right. So this, this question that you asked about what's dangerous about having a pastor who claims he can't tell his sins to anyone else. It reminds me of a verse that so many IFB preachers in particular take out of context. And that's first Timothy 520, because what they'll do is they'll take first Timothy 520 and they'll apply it to everyone in the church. Well, let me read the verse. First Timothy 520 says, those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. So many churches and pastors use this verse as an excuse to parade people in front of the church that have repented of their sin. When you read the context of this, this is talking about an elder. This is talking about a pastor. You know, you, if a pastor remains in sin, you bring him before the church because the, the elder, the pastor there, you know, they've got a higher level of accountability. And, and this, this, this, this, you know, it's ridiculous that a pastor says, well, I can't, I can't confess my sins to anyone you commanded to in scripture. Which by the way, before I get to my next question, I want to, Ryan, I want to do a plug for your book. I haven't read the whole thing, but I've definitely read some of it. And of course, my favorite chapter so far is hijacking scripture. Good. That's a good one. Oh man. It's like, it spoke to my soul, man. Good. This, this, this report that you wrote about, you know, Jesus being competitive and how you apply the tactics that, you know, your dad used in scripture that you learn from church and scripture growing up to write that report. Just goes to show you how you can misuse scripture. I want to read, James, I want to read you my favorite quote from this chapter. And it says a Bible that only supports our politics, our tendencies, or our philosophy. Isn't the word of God. If our God doesn't confront our suppositions, either he isn't God or we are gods. And so many times we won't let the word of God change us. We'll go to the word of God with a philosophy and say, no matter what the text says, I am not going to let it change my mind. I am going to the Bible to prove what I already believe. And when we do that, scripture's not informing us, we're informing scripture. Well, that's my favorite chapter in your book so far. I'm definitely going to read it. There's a few bangers after that one. One of the victims that my dad assaulted, I gave her a pre-production copy. I changed all the names in the book except for me and my dad. And she said when other victims have talked to her or other people related to her or whatever, she said, start with the last chapter and then start over. Because so many people so far have said the last chapter is their favorite, which is good. You want the last one to be good. But yeah, I was pretty fiery when I was writing that chapter. And as you pointed out, it was self-deprecating. I was talking about how I misused scripture because even people who leave the faith, and we've seen this in other podcasts and other places on social media, and that pendulum, you can use the Bible completely the wrong way the other way too. I think it's somewhere in the middle of the book, but Abraham Lincoln said the North and the South are both reading the same Bible and both thought it approved of what they were doing. That's in that chapter. Yeah. Now, here's another thing I want to say for ask my next question. And you talk about some IFB preachers in here. You name some, but some you don't name, but you just say what they said. And me, who's been an independent Baptist mom my whole life, I'm like, I know who he's talking about because I've heard that preacher say that same thing. Well, you got a pre-production copy that has some names in it that aren't in the final. One of those preachers threatened to sue me. And so I just said, you know what? I'm not here to litigate or tear those guys down. I'm here to showcase what they said. And I don't need their names to showcase what they said. Yeah. Let's go. Let's go. Yes. You guys have a secret version there. Hey, if you're interested about this book as well, before Brett mentions his question, it does come out April 12th. Pre-order is available. And I'm told if you use a promo code, maybe like for freedom that you'll get a discount, but I'm not sure on that. Or we'll get a kickback. I don't know exactly how that's going to work. We're still praying on the details. But hurt and healed by the church, redemption and reconstruction after spiritual abuse. And I'll link that in our show notes as well. And this subject is so needed. It is. Man, one of the most buzzworthy words right now is deconstruction. And people take that to mean I'm leaving and I'm never coming back. You know, that's the mentality of what they think the word means. And I think this subject in this book and what you talk about, I think it's greatly needed. Which leads me into my question. You know, so many people, they're so hurt. And you were right earlier. How could you blame them for everything that they've been through and all the trauma that they've experienced? But, you know, if somebody was listening right now and they were hurt by the church and they're just, you know, first they're done with it. But there's a part of them that's like, man, I want to like church again. I miss church. But I'm just, I was so traumatized by my experience. Like, there's somebody out there right now struggling with this. Maybe a listener to this podcast or somebody that reads their book. And they've got to the point where they may have washed their hands of the whole thing. There's a part of them that wants to know how they can reconstruct. And so I want to ask you, after everything that you've been through, how are you still going to church? Like, what was the process of reconstructing your faith? What was that like? Well, I mean, the full answer is 81,000 words that you guys are holding on the other end of the screen. The short answer is I just fell in love with a winsome Jesus. Right. Like, so I understand people who walk away from the church or even just a specific church or a certain brand of church and go, OK, set aside church for right now. If you're not ready for that, that's triggering or if that's it causes your heart to tense up. There's a physical reaction. You dread church. I mean, no one should dread going to church. Right. So so what I do is start with start with Jesus and start with conversations with Jesus. So I'm a big proponent. I don't know if you guys have done any reading on the spiritual pathway. So depending on which program you do, it's seven or nine different spiritual pathways of how we relate to God. It's kind of like love languages, but vertically. And so my number one is nature and my number two is music. My wife's are different. Right. She's a server. She's a theologian. She knows the Bible inside and out better than I do, actually. But for me, it's getting alone in nature. And so what I've done is I've spent a lot of time on the mountain alone or with other believers with worship music or whatever. And just saying, God, I want to be read. I want to be seen. I want to know you. Sunday, this Sunday in church, we switched up to it's like every quarter in our church. They don't do a sermon. They do stations of introspection. They give you little assignments to do and you move around the building and do. And this lady walked up to me and she handed me a card. I never met this lady before. And her card says, I want to feel God's presence in my heart. I mean, that's just amazing how real that was to hand that to a stranger. But I was ready to pray for her because I've had that conversation with Jesus dozens, if not scores of times up on the mountain. I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains. And just go, God, I want to know who the real you is. And why wouldn't he answer that? If he said, if you seek me, you will find me if you seek with your whole heart. If you've got to push church aside for a while, Jesus isn't church. He's at church. He says he's anywhere where believers are gathered. But it doesn't have to be a building. And so part of why I'm in Dude Group, which is an outdoor prayer and Bible study group, part of why I do so many backpacking trips with people of church, people of faith, people who are exploring faith, people who are reconstructing, is to say, hey, why don't we work on a relationship with Jesus? And then maybe he'll guide you back. And he will. He'll guide you to a place where you are safe to worship him, to serve him, to serve others. And so counseling was huge for me. Getting into therapy was just massive for me. Tomorrow will be like my fifth year in a row, like weekly sessions. And so that was huge for me. My counselors are Christian counselors, so that helps. But learning that spiritual pathway was huge. Being around Christians who aren't fake, having pastors and teachers who say, hey, I don't know, or I've changed, or I made a mistake here, or this is what I'm struggling with from stage or personally off stage or whatever. Man, this is real to them. They're not holding up their relationship with God with a checklist or anything they've done. I've just watched people worship, not just in music, but like in conversation or whatever. I've seen people relate to the supernatural in ways I go, that is utterly attractive. And whatever they have, I want it. And for whatever reason, I'm surrounded with a bunch of those people. And they've come into my life. They're not all the same people over the last 20 years. Some come in for a year and a half, some come in for 10 or whatever. You just go, man, I felt like I was put on this planet to meet you. I felt like this moment was scheduled before. I'll give you a recent story. So I went to Iceland on Thanksgiving break. I said, hey, babe, I have some airline miles. Can I blow them on Thanksgiving break before our daughter comes home? She's like, sure. So I go over to Iceland. I was struggling with a whole bunch of stuff. And I just did not see the future. I was like, God, I don't even know what's going on. So I go to this town named Vick, V-I-K, which is where we get our word Viking. It's black sand beach, black rocks. It's at night. The water's black. The sky's black. I'm listening to worship music crying about how I don't understand what's going on. I'm like, God, I want to see you. And my life right now feels like this black abyss. So that was a Tuesday night. I come home. Our church used to have Saturday evening services. I went to the Saturday evening service. Our guys at our church had no idea where I'd been, the prayer, none of that. And the picture behind the lyrics while we're singing worship that Saturday night was from Vic Beach. Wow. And it was as if Jesus said, I saw you there. I know you don't know the future. I do. But I'm going to walk through it with you. And it was just these compounded hundreds of these personal moments, both alone and with people who are on, just have this relationship with Jesus. It's kind of like when you see a couple and you're like, dude, I would love for my wife to look at me the way that that wife is looking at her. Or you see, man, I wish my kids looked at me the way that that dude's kids look at him. Or what, you know what I'm saying? I looked at people who were looking at Jesus as like, man, I've not looked at Jesus like that. And I want to. And once you're safe with their hearts, then you're safe in your shared spaces. And it's not, my church isn't exclusive to it. Like I said, one of the reasons we started Do Group was, or one of the benefits of starting Do Group is we've attracted guys from up to a half dozen different churches. And so nobody's like, well, my church has the answer, right? And it's not that we're all hiding from church. All of our churches know we're doing this as far as I know. And they're just like, yeah, if that's where you guys feel safe, have church on Wednesday night and then come back to your other church on Sunday. That's so great. And it brings a whole new meaning to that passage of scripture that we know so familiar with. But we sometimes quote scripture because we know it and we don't let it penetrate our heart. You know, Psalms 23, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. I don't fear any evil because you're with me. You know, you're there, you're walking and God says, hey, I'm with you. I know you're there. I'm walking with you. You don't even see me, but I'm there with you. And it brings such a whole new meaning of hope and peace to our life when we can understand that God's there with us. And it's not just the happy things, right? Like some of the most amazing spiritual encounters I've had are with people who are grieving. Yeah. Right. Oh, yeah. Or with or in my own loss. Right. Like the moments I had, I thought my daughter is African-American. And I remember after Ahmaud Arbery was shot, being up alone on the mountain and think about like, what if that's my daughter? You know, like she's just walking around the neighborhood and someone chased her down and shoots her. And I was like, God, that what needs to change in my heart so that I can be the change in the world so that my daughter is safe. You know, I have guys in my life who they met Jesus because they lost their marriage. They met Jesus because they lost their business. One of my mentors, he's 76, just an incredible dude. But he lost his son, 24 years old. He was our youth pastor and a car rolled over him in a freak accident on the side of the road. He was changing a tire. Wow. And you just want when you watch someone suffer. Well, you go, the world doesn't know how to suffer. And I would contend IFB people don't either. They throw cliche band-aids on things. They don't know how to suffer and mourn well. But when I saw someone so connected with Jesus that they put their arms in the air and say, God, I trust you. I just lost my son, but I trust you. Man, why wouldn't I want what they have? Yeah. That reminds me of Ecclesiastes 7, too. It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting, for that is the end of all men, and the living will lay it to his heart. And you'll get closer to God in the house of mourning than you will in the house of feasting. That verse came to my mind as you were talking. Yeah, I find him in both, but I'm glad he is in both. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm actually going to add one more question at the very end. But the last planned question that we had, what are some of the biggest misconceptions about abuse and spiritual manipulation in the church? So, of course, you've got podcast upon podcast articles that you can find that will tell you what abuse is, what abuse isn't, what classifies as abuse or manipulation. You know, of course, our motto or our theme is Galatians 6, 1, finding freedom in Christ because Christ has set us free no longer to be under the yoke of bondage, but to live in the freedom of Christ. And so, living in that freedom and knowing what that freedom is, what is some of the misconceptions about abuse that you may experience in the church or manipulation? Several. One is I don't think people realize how rampant it is. Once your eyes have been tuned to it. So, my wife works women's ministry in our church, but she also is our missions director, does a lot of work in Central America with sex trafficking victims and stuff. And, you know, 35 to 40 percent of the women in her ministry here in the state have been sexually assaulted or molested or whatever. And then you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's in the church. How much is it outside the church? And what it does is it tunes your eyes to it's way more than what we think. Right. The other is this is a big one. You guys may have seen this with some of your other guests, definitely in the podcast. We both listen to is that particularly in IFB, but this is all denominations. They'll say, hey, don't tell people because it'll hurt the gospel. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Jesus called out those who hurt children. One of the harshest things he ever said was it's better for a millstone to put around your neck and be thrown into the sea than to hurt a child. So the other is that people assume that the system is meant to protect the shepherd, not the sheep. And so if you're in a church that protects the shepherd, instead of the sheep, like run as fast as you can. And then the last is read your Bible. This sounds really fundamental, but so many times, so many pastors I've heard misuse scripture because they know the person on the other end does not know that that's wrong. Like they don't have a context. Like what you said earlier, like that verse is for elders. Right. That verse isn't for parishioners. That's for the elders. You knew that because you'd studied Timothy. Right. And so I think if the more educated parishioners or congregants or whatever word you use in your church, the people in the pews or chairs or tables, the more of the scripture they know, the more they can push back and say, well, hey, I don't. That's not what that verse is for. You know, and so educating ourselves to how Jesus actually treated victims, how Jesus actually treated women, how Jesus treated his enemies, how Jesus treated any number of categories of people. And we'll push back on whatever vitriol we're hearing from the pulpit. I was manipulated for so many years. Because the pastor that I grew up under, I later worked for in the first part of my ministry. And, you know, when you're in manipulation, you really don't see it. But looking back, I can just see how scripture was used to manipulate me. And we definitely need to be like those Bereans and, you know, examine for ourselves and not take things just on the surface and be aware and test things that are said. He's the pastor of the church. He's not the Baptist pope. You know, he's not the end. Oh, you know, he's a man just like us. You put your faith in a man and in a human being and humans will let you down. But, you know, the word of God and Jesus Christ will never let us down. And I want to add one last question here at the end, just because we're all ex-IFB guys. Right. You know, looking back, were there any red flags about the IFB that you wish you had seen? Or that you did see that you maybe, you know, thought, man, I don't know if that's right or not. You know, sort of go both ways. Not saying that you knew or, you know, whatever. But what's your thoughts on that? So I knew something was off. Right. But I don't I didn't have the language at the time to understand that it was a red flag. Like I was like, that can't be right. You know, like there's something amiss here. And I didn't know enough scripture. I didn't know because in my faith, you tend to stick to the passages that agree with you. Right. And so it wasn't later after the 2016 election when everyone's like, hey, we need to read diverse voices. We need to we're on these opinion silos. I started reading like 40, 50, 60 nonfiction books a year and real Christian authors, non-Christian authors, people of different faiths, you know, whatever. And going, oh, they have language for it that I didn't have because I was in my silo. Right. Therapy was huge for that to go. I never call what my dad did to me abuse. I mean, some of the things that you see in that book in the first chapter and the last chapter, my dad, you know, froze me at 30 degrees under Fahrenheit below zero to discipline me or throw me through a wall or hang me or whatever. And you go, I just thought my dad was super tough, you know, like he was doing object lessons. It never occurred to me that that was abuse. Now, my body knew it. My heart rate was frenzied. I was scared to be around my dad. Right. Like those things should I would learn decades later. Those things should have been red flags to me. But when that's the only world, you know, you just accept that that's part of the one of the guys I grew up with. Called me on the phone. He got his pre-production copy and we were comparing notes. He's like, I don't think our parents were that bad, man. And I was like, I mean, my dad hung me. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, my dad choked me. My dad threatened to knock my teeth out. My dad, you know, and he told me, hey, you know, in the Old Testament, we would have stoned you. You'd be dead by now. So you should be grateful that this is all we're doing to you. And they weaponized scripture, which is another kind of abuse. And so I was like, man, I even even 20 years later, I said, you wouldn't do that to your daughters. I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that to my daughter, you know. So it was becoming a dad helped, going to therapy helped, reading books helped to go, oh, the things that something was off, but I couldn't put a label on it. Now I have words and labels for it. Gotcha. Man, that's so powerful. It's so powerful to know that. And, you know, I can agree with that as well, looking back and even hearing other people's story, you know, watching that documentary that we talked about at the beginning with the Let Us Pray and seeing the response of some of the people of saying, well, they should have known. We didn't know. That's the thing. We were told that that's what we should do. We should submit and we should listen. And if our pastor says we should do something, we should do it. So when a pastor calls and says, I need someone, we do it. No questions asked. And so there is that side of it to understand and know looking back backwards, we see a lot more. Yeah, I don't think a lot of people realize that when I say the word Bible is a weapon, I mean that literally. Like if someone told you when you were a kid, put a gun to your head and say, don't say anything, it'll hurt my reputation. You wouldn't because it was a gun. If they did a knife or whatever it was, if they said, hey, we're going to hurt your mom. So all it was, was we had the same thing. We had the same, whether you call it mafia or gang or whatever, but instead of guns, they used the Bible. And so that's our connection to the divine. Why would we want to turn that spigot off? And so they just use a different weapon than what, you know, somebody on the south side of Baltimore or whatever, you know, would encounter. Yeah. Watch out for the she bears. Did you get to that chapter yet? Dude, that's such a fun. I did read that. And that was one of my favorite parts. I love that part. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for coming on. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. And I know that this is going to help people. And this is going to be a great, great asset. Again, if you haven't preordered the book or you haven't heard about it, go to Amazon. I'll put a link on there, wherever you get your books at. Again, Hurt and Healed by the Church, Redemption and Reconstruction After Spiritual Abuse. It's a great read. It's an easy read. From what I've read so far, it's only 27 chapters. But again, those chapters flow very easily. Just a couple hundred pages. And it's a great, great time of just helping, again, put some verbiage to where you're at and understand the life that you're in and maybe experienced. If there's anything we can ever do to reach out to us, Ryan's on social media. You can reach out to him on his social media tags under his name. And I know that he'll be a great asset for you to walk through life. Brett, any of you say? Yeah, let me just say, as me personally, someone who's been raised independent fundamental Baptist and who's out of fundamentalism now, if that's your story, you have to get this book. This book is like a mirror. And it speaks to so many of the experiences. And as I'm reading it, it's bringing back to memory things that I went through and helping me process things. I didn't even know I needed to process this. So if you're in this camp with us, you're part of this family, you've got to get this book. You've got to read it. It's a great read. I haven't finished it. I'm going to. Ryan, thank you so much for sharing your story, for writing this book. And thank you so much for being with us today. It was a pleasure. Thanks, guys. Absolutely. And remember, as always, if not more important today than ever, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. I found my new name. I found that good grace. I found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance. I found my best friend. I found my forgiveness. I found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast.

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