53. RFP Network Crossover Series Part 8: The Preacher's Kid Podcast

I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got... Hey, you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. I still believe there'll be a cold day in hell before I get my talents from a woman. I'm a preacher. The young preachers that do love God get pulled off in the cabin is... And I'll fight it. I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over there. I'll get personal with you. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP Network. That seeks to bring freedom in Christ. From the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Hollifield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome back, everybody. We are here at the For Freedom Podcast, James and John, together. And we are excited about today's episode. It's been a fun couple of days and just hanging out with James. And we've been getting some things recorded ahead of time. And one of the things that we are excited about doing is we started this a while back. We did. We called it the RFP Network Crossover Team-Up Event Avengers Series. And we have been trying to finish it. One of the early podcasts in the RFP Network that we recorded with. It was one of the first, actually. It was the Preacher Kids Podcast, John Gross and Elab Levins. And we were trying this new recording software. I think Phil. Should we say what the name is? It was just bad. Yeah, it was bad. And we got done. And it was actually a little tough recording because none of the video screens were moving and we were getting distracted. But then when we got done, half of the recording was completely missing. And so it's been so long. We just now are able to get that back. So we're excited today, guys, to welcome back John Groves and Eli Blevins of the Preacher's Kid Podcast. Welcome, guys. What kind of shallow person do you want to become? Recovering from fundamentalism or something. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. If there's such a word, you're stupider now. Don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and we'll all flub up together. It's so good to be back with you. Even though no one will have heard the first time we were here. That's amazing. Hey, we have fun the first time. The second time, though. Oh, we're going to. It's going to be great. We're going to have a party on here. You guys have gotten. You got to have the comedian on your show. You've done some great interviews lately. So you guys have like a vast knowledge of even more wisdom than the last time we talked. So we're really going to be able to maybe throw some jokes down. You guys can maybe share some stuff that was shared off air or whatever. But it's just going to be great. And I'm excited. But today's topic, John, is we're going to be talking about having a healthy home for preacher's kids and how to deal with post legalism. And so these guys both are pastors, kids, Eli and John. So we're going to give you guys just a moment. Eli, you can start sort of tell us your background. Tell us how your family got into ministry. If you were born into ministry and just go through that. And then, John, you can go after that. For sure. What's going on, guys? First of all, thank you all for having us on. It is an honor that you would not only have us on once, but twice. So thank you for that. But my name is Eli Blevins. I live in Wilmington, North Carolina, which is like right on the beach. So we're a beach town. And so it's just, you know, honestly, just such a bear that God called us to plant a church by the beach. You know, like, you know, of all places to go, he could have picked somewhere else. But we're here at the beach and it's amazing. And so my dad, he started our church, which is called Life Church. He started it back in 2003, 2004. And back before church planning was cool and happening like every 20 seconds. And we had no plan, but we just said, God, you've given us this dream, this desire. So we're going to go there. He intentionally picked a city where he did not know a single person to do it in because he did not want to pull people from other churches or have any kind of relationships there. So he said, I'm going to go to this place where I know nobody. And because it's all going to be God whenever people come and people get saved. And so that's how it started. And here we are now celebrating 17, 18 years of church and is amazing. And I'm on staff of the church now. So I went to Bible college at Southeastern University and it was amazing. And I just love being able to bring back some of this knowledge and some of the fun and the experiences and just the biblical worldview back into our church and to help our church grow. And to honestly see our town know Jesus better and get to know Jesus better and seeing people get raised up in the church. So you went to Southeastern in North Carolina, right? I went to Southeastern in Florida. So there's two Southeastern. There's a Southeastern seminary and then there's a Southeastern University in Lakeland, Florida. Okay. There's two of them. I just say whenever someone asks, I just say yes and assume they mean the one that went to. And if not, then that's all right. Yeah, that's great. So I'm a great Bibleologist. Yeah. John, what about your story? How was you raised? How are you? Not John Holyfield, but the actual legend here, John Groves over here. Well, thanks for having us on. You know, we had one guest once on our podcast that we had the same audio glitch. And when we thought about re-recording, we re-evaluated and didn't. So it's an honor to be invited back after you heard our answers the first go around. But I'm a fourth generation preacher's kid, which I tell people just means I'm four times as messed up as most people. And I grew up raised in the, you know, the independent fundamental Bible believing pre-millennial missionary supporting King James. It was only bless God better than you, Baptist world, you know, and I think we had all of that on the sign. Amen. Can I get a... And, you know, there are different strains of the IFB and we kind of had a mixture. My great-grandfather was the first class ever at Baptist Bible College in Springfield, Missouri. My grandfather went there only after getting kicked out of Bob Jones University, Bob Jones College back then. And he was too liberal for them in some areas and too conservative in some others. So, you know, always an interesting time. And so lots of pastors and evangelists and even some missionaries kind of on both sides of the family. So really kind of ran from ministry for quite a while. I had seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, and I thought there was more ugly really until realizing that there was this entire world outside of the denomination I grew up in. I just didn't realize that. It was like we were right and everybody else was going to hell. So I knew I didn't want to be right with these people, but I didn't want to go to hell with those people. And so believe it or not, a girl that I knew introduced me to the ESV. And so I got one when I was in high school and just wept. And that was the beginning of my, I hate this word, but deconstruction from IFB. And really a deep dive into, you know, just doctrine and believing, understanding why I believe what I believe. So over the last 13 years in full-time ministry, I've been blessed to be a church planter. And so now I travel in evangelism full-time and I get to work with churches, kind of a coaching capacity, and just have a blast doing it. So love the ministry now and love getting to be a part of a cool network like we all get to be a part of. Yeah. And John, when we recorded last time, you were about to be a dad. Well, you were about to have your first child delivered. Let me say that when you were already a dad, but you're about to have your first child delivered. And now the baby's here. Bro, I genuinely believe that all of humanity has been one giant experiment leading up to the moment when God finally got it right. And her name is Sienna. She is absolute perfection. She's the most beautiful little sinner I've ever met. She lies all the time. There's nothing wrong with her. She's just crying. She's wonderful. And fatherhood is great. So we're just a little over two months in and not experts by any means, but loving it. That's awesome. That's good. Well, one of the things that we enjoyed talking about, well, the thing that we enjoyed talking about and very important to us, actually, James and I took notes. And we were like, this is good stuff for us, is because you guys have a unique, you know, I guess if we could use this word, and it doesn't offend you, a niche, which is the direction that your podcast is. And so, you know, dealing with the culture and the ups and downs of being a preacher's kid and then growing through that. And I think that what fascinates me about that is because James and I did not grow up as preacher's kids. However, now we both are preachers. And so a lot of that sort of those things that are out there, we just don't think about it. Like, it's not even in our framework of what our kids are going through. And so, therefore, I find what you guys cover and what you guys talk about just so awesome because it's giving me, it's open to me. Opening my mind up to thinking of, like, what are my kids going through? You know, I think after listening to one of your episodes, I sat down with my daughter and was like, hey, are you feeling this at all? Because she's now getting to that real cognitive stage of thinking about things and concerned about what other people think. And so it's really helped. So what we're going to do today is we're going to ask a couple of questions here. And the first one we got is what are the top three things preachers should not do with their kids? And we're asking this to John and Eli because they're bringing a perspective of two guys that grew up in preachers' homes. And now as adults and their own families are still walking in their faith, still walking in the church and growing. And so I think that they bring some wisdom and insight to this discussion. Yeah, very much so. So, you know, and even right before you answer that question, after this, after we recorded our first go around with you guys, a couple of weeks after that, we were just getting home from church. And my oldest son, he were walking around and he had did something at church, done something at church. And I was talking to him and he said, well, dad, you know, I'm a pastor's kid. And so, you know, people were watching me and I'm just like, for the first time, he's understanding this life of a pastor's kid that I had not even thought of him understanding that. So, yeah, go ahead and answer the first question there. So the top three things preachers should not do with their kids. John, why don't you start off? So I've got a top three list. I'll give them to you quickly. I think the broadest spectrum is treating your kid like an associate pastor or a wildcard volunteer. When you make them your associate pastor, you know, it's good for your ministry to be a family ministry and it's awesome to do ministry with your family. But I think based on our experience and then now the conversations we have every week with PKs, if you'll ask the question, you know, hey, do you want to do this? A lot of times it'll be yes. Sometimes it'll just be not that much, though. The second thing for me is routinely taking phone calls or responding to texts or emails or even just talking too much about church related stuff at dinner. You know, take time to be a parent. And it's OK to talk about your faith and it's even OK to talk about church. But we just had a conversation a few weeks ago with a PK that works with his parents now. And he's like, yeah, sometimes it feels like every dinner is staff meeting and and not family dinner. And then the super specific is kind of a niche related one for me personally was not turning family devotions into another church service like and it's not a knock on family devotions or family prayer. I think that's so important. But in our home, we had a hard time switching or my dad, my grandfather had a hard time switching from pastor mode to like parent mode. And so sometimes it really felt like we got to take notes and there's going to be a test and there's going to be an altar call. And it wasn't so much a studying the word together as it was just getting another dose of what we already had all week long. So it kind of made Bible reading less fun. So those were my big three. That's awesome. Those are those are that covers are actually like a broad spectrum for sure. And definitely for me growing up, I can relate to this. I have three. One is a little bit of a crossover, so I'll kind of save that one. But the first one for me is don't miss out on what your kids are doing for the sake of church. And so for me, something that my dad always tried to do is always he always tried to be at my soccer or basketball games. And that meant more to me than any sermon he's ever preached before, because I can remember all the games that he was at, but I can't remember all the messages he preached. And so being present in your kid's life. Do not neglect your kids and what their interests are. The second one is a PK does not stand for a perfect kid. It stands for pastor's kid. And so don't think that they have to be perfect. The second you start putting demands on them to be perfect is the second that they're going to crumble in the glass house that they're in. And that just leaves more and more damage to be done and a bigger mess to do. So don't try to hold them on this pedestal that just because you're the pastor and you and your wife are leading a church or whatever that looks like, that your kid is going to be perfect and knows every Bible verse and will never lie and never say a bad word or never be, you know, respectful or any of those things. So don't hold them to an unrealistic standard. And the third is don't force church on them. The reason that I work in a church now for my dad is because it was never forced on me. I saw it as an honor and a privilege to be a part of ministry. And because of that, and because I saw even the fun that came with it. Yeah, I saw some heartbreak that came with it, but I also saw some fun that came with it. And for me, that's what turned me on to ministry was just how honoring and how great it can be. So don't force them into being like John was saying, don't force them as a volunteer to do it. Don't force them to be there because that's ultimately what, where my love came from for the church is just seeing how great it really was. But how to see it through my own eyes first. And if I had been forced to see it through their eyes, I can't say that'd be, he's sitting here talking to you guys at all right now. Yeah. At what point did your parents make it, I guess, not mandatory or give you an option whether you want to go to church or not? Was it a teenager? Yeah. You know, at some point you've got to, I mean, your kids are kids. You've got to take them to church. Absolutely. Well, so for me, what was interesting is that my dad was actually a businessman. He worked for his dad, a business until I was 10 years old. And so, or nine years old. And then he was a youth pastor for a couple of years at a place in Charleston. And then we started our church in Wilmington. And so I was a little older already going into it. I think I was like 11 years old when we started the church. So I think by that point I had already, it wasn't like you have to go to church then. Now, before that we were in church when my dad was in business. Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, small group Thursday nights, Friday nights, we were doing dinner with another family from church. They had like six small groups they were doing. They were leading them. They were leading something else. So it was still all church. But even then, I never remember it being like, it was always like, hey, that's where your friends are. So I thought I was just going to hang out with my friends because kids church was a little bit of Jesus and a lot of toys, you know, when I was a kid. So to me, I was like, okay, cool. This is where my friends are. So this is what we're doing. And so, but whenever he became a pastor and started the church, I was a little older. So I kind of, and I'm not going to say that they always gave me a choice. I mean, they were like, wake up. We're still going to church. Like it's still Sunday, but the attitude is always a choice for it. And so how they can approach that and how they approached it was so much different than, hey, if you don't get your butt up right now, then, you know, we're going to give it to you after church. Like kind of deal. It was never that. It was like, hey, this is who we are. They have a tagline that they've kind of used since I can remember. And even every time I'd even leave the house, they would say this. And they would say, you know who you are. You are a Blevins. And I just meant as Blevins, we're going to try to live above reproach. We're going to be a little bit more respectful of people. We're going to be on time to things. We're going to do a little things with excellence. We're going to be at church. We're going to be worshiping. We're going to do all these things because of that. And so for me, I was just like, that's just who our family is. Our calling is different. Our family devotions were never then preaching to us at all. It was always like, Eli, this is how you can take this into your middle school today. And here's how this can maybe help. Like we know your friend is struggling. We saw him at school and we know their parents and we just know he's going through something hard. And here's a verse that you may be able to encourage him with. And, you know, maybe you should invite him to youth sometime. You know, you guys, you have some friends there and you can introduce them to some friends. And so that was always the lens of church for me was through kind of that perspective, always very positive and never demanding or forceful. But I understand that my situation, as I've talked to many other pastors, kids is kind of rare in that in that way. And so if you're a parent right now listening to this and you're the pastor in the situation, I just want to turn this around on on you to say that the attitude you have about church is a choice that you get to have. Are you going to show your kids that this is the place where there's hope and there's life and there's joy and where your friends can be? And this is where you can be an influence to your friends by giving them practical tools and devotionals and Bible verses. Or is this a place where they have to go because it's Sunday at eight o'clock in the morning and it's Wednesday night and it's Thursday afternoon and all these things. So parents, if you're listening, it's a choice and it's never too late. It's never too late to start having that choice now. Sometimes you got to be good, kind of get your going to get their butts up and give them to church. But as a whole, 90 percent of time, it was pretty good. That's great. John, I wasn't a pastor's kid and you weren't either. But was your upbringing like he was or was your upbringing? The doors are open at church. You got to get there because that's how mine was. When church was open, we were there and I wasn't a pastor's kid. My dad wasn't even a deacon. But yet mine was more forceful of, you know, this is how it's going to be. We've got to get there until about my my teenage years of church. And then my family sort of wavered in their faith. And that it was a desire for me to be there. And so I went all the time, was helping out, was doing stuff with the church. But was that for you? But I just yeah, I mean, but I think what Eli was saying is like in those those ages, there's there's not really anything wrong of like this is where our family's going. Yeah, no, yeah. But yeah, my experience is sort of like yours. Once I got to be about 10 or 11, it seemed like if we wanted to be a church, we had to, you know, get a ride and and get there ourselves. And our social life was there at the church. So we actually stayed in all of us. Me and my brother stayed in church when my parents just wouldn't go and that kind of thing. So that was sort of I wanted to circle around to one of the points that John made. And Eli might that last point that you made about don't force church on them might have a little bit to play in this. But you said something about talking too much about church at dinner. Do you have any sort of perspective because I don't know, this is probably just like totally bogus for our audience. But this is just a personal question for me where I'm at right now is do you have any sort of perspective on like how much or at what age it becomes appropriate to let to let them in a little bit on what's going on with things? You know, I know that sometimes I know I have one kid that's six and I know when she gets to be a teenager, she could care less. But I got one kid right now that's nine and she wants to know everything. So if your kid has ears, they already know what's going on. It's like universal for us. I mean, they don't know every detail, but almost we like to take notes on the stories that we hear in the episodes we record. And so it's almost universal that every PK says off the camera and Eli can testify to this. They'll be like, yeah, I used to listen to my parents' conversations after they put me to bed. And that's exactly what we did too. Like, bro, let me just say that unless you are leaving them home alone and you're going to another building, they have heard it. And they're not bringing it up, but they're looking at people a little different, you know, because kids don't know how to know something and not act like they know something. Or at least that was true for us. You know, our friend Barnabas Piper really put some verbiage to this that was a light bulb for Eli and I because we're like, that's exactly what everybody else has been saying. They just haven't said it like he said it. Where he was like his dad, John Piper, always gave the age-appropriate answer to what was going on. He didn't squelch the curiosity and be like, I'm not telling you the details, but he would give an age-appropriate response. And then they would like pray for those people and stuff like that. So, but I will say that every PK is listening. Like, just make your ringtone though. Somebody's watching me because they are. Private eyes are watching you. Your every move. Like, they're there and they know and they'll never admit it because PKs are good liars, you know. And so, I don't know if that helps or not. Well, is there anything that you would say that would be, we would need to make sure that we shield them from that might, you know, turn them off from things? I mean, I've been a lead pastor for eight months. Eight months. Eight months. In eight months, crap has happened. In eight months. You made it that long? That's pretty good. Eight hours. I actually think, and I actually had a conversation with my dad recently about this, even in just in terms of now, even though I'm on staff at church, but there's quite a few of us on staff. And some, a lot of things don't get back to me even now because he still wants me to be protected. Or he wants to protect the person as well that maybe we'll call that fault. But when it comes to things like moral failings and things like that, that to him is something that was, that was extremely like personal, like private. And I'm going to be honest right now. I'm sorry if my parents are listening to this. Like there's times where I was listening at the door and I know things about people that I shouldn't. And even to this day, I'm like, I can't get it out. Like it's, I mean, you know, as stinks, honestly, like it does. So for them, they were always so very, very, very protective of what they shared with us. Now they would, they would share like, okay, this person, you know, they may not be a great person. Not a great person. That sounds bad, but they may have had something wrong. But if it came to any kind of like marital problems or criminal activities, when we've had people that are being criminals that have come to church, you know, things like that. They were very careful on not disclosing information about that with us. And so I just, they didn't want the other person to feel bad either. They had such a love for people that they wouldn't want them to be in my head like that. And as you guys know, like, like we even off camera, we were talking about it. Bad news just sticks more than good news does. And so like, am I going to remember the hundred things that person did? Or am I going to remember the one time that they possibly like cheated on their wife? That's good. I think the concern of every pastor is, are my kids going to love Jesus, love the church and love ministry when they're old enough to choose? And so to the, to the listeners, this isn't an exclusively PK problem. It's just an amplified PK problem. Um, anybody who's in church leadership, life group leader, deacon, elder, wherever you fall has an element of this. Whereas the pastor carries the weight of all of it. And so I am not raising a teenager yet. I just based on personal experience and then conversations with probably thousands now of PKs. Um, if you'll just present balance, I think the thing that causes so many PKs to become cynical is an extreme one way or the other. All they hear, and this is kind of how I grew up. All I heard was the negative. It was all the, like the issues, the, the problems, this person's a snake, you know, this is church discipline, you know, all this. And so I'm like, church is crap. And then we've talked to some PKs that are, we have one episode, um, recently where, uh, Carson was sharing. Uh, he was over here, Carson McKinney. He's right. That was his name. Carson McKinney. He's way over here where all he ever heard was the good stuff. And then he got older and, you know, walked into church with fresh eyes and he's like, Whoa, these people are crazy. I, you know, I thought all the church people were perfect, wonderful, and love Jesus a hundred percent. And so what I'm going to strive to do as a parent, what I wish my parents would have done. And what I think successful parents like Eli's and others have shared with us is, um, give the age appropriate answer and then also present the good news of what Jesus is doing so that they know ministry's tough, but it's worth it. Yeah. Well, that's great. Uh, hold on. If I'm hearing you correctly, I think what you're saying is that when me and my wife are talking vaguely around the house, my daughter knows what we're talking about. She knows exactly what you're talking about. She knows who you're talking about. And unless you're pastoring a church of 10,000 people where your daughter's going in and out of a green room, um, she knows more about that situation that you'll let on, um, than she'll ever let on. I mean, she's watching and, and she, and, and your kids, man, they're networked because the grandparents of the church tell them stuff and their friends that are the kids of those people tell them stuff. And, uh, so, I mean, sometimes if you really need to know some info, um, just go to your kid and be like, what do you think about, you know, sister Sarah over here? And she'll be like, well, I heard, you know, I was funny. I was joking with the pastor's kid once. And I was like, pastor's kids have the most leverage because we know the most dirt and we know exactly. We can blackmail some people if we needed to in the name of Jesus. And then you've birthed your own little private eyes around there. I, I, if this makes it out to people in the church and they are, they're going to be like, Oh no, Eli knows this. I probably don't really, I may know some stuff, but. A little disclaimer there, a little disclaimer, quickly moving on. Yeah. Quickly moving on. Uh, those are the three things that you shouldn't do with your kids. What are some things that as pastors we should do with our kids? Um, and, and give some encouragement here of what are some things that stood out to you guys that your parents did with you? Your dads did with you that really made an influence in your life and really spawned you to become what you are today. Whether that be a pastor or own staff or whatever, what, what are some good things that we should do, uh, with our kids? Uh, Eli, you can go first. It's time. So I kind of, uh, talked about it a little bit and it was that they made it fun. It's where my friends were. And I understand that not every church is going to be, um, where your friends are and where they're, where your kids are. And like, I understand that's the case, but for me, it just happened. That was my context. I can only speak to my reality and my reality. This is, that's where some of my friends were. It's like, like John was saying too, like it was, that was where social was. And that's what kept him coming back into church and same for me, like that was where it was. Um, another thing for me is we talk about not forcing them to be a volunteer, but here's the difference of what I'm going to say is that they did give me ownership of things in church. And so, um, the ownership part is what kept me involved and alive and active in church. It wasn't a force, but it was, you know, I believe that right now you can be the greatest pro presenter person our church has ever seen and putting the lyrics up on the screen. And I think almost every pastor's good. If you haven't gone through this before yet, you will probably, your kids need to be, or you will need to be getting them on the pro presenter. And it was the pro presenter ministry. It wasn't a serve team. It was the ministry of lyrics. And I was on the ministry of lyrics and every single Sunday, that was my job. And guess what? My dad would send me his notes and I'd have to put those in. And I was like, Oh, I get to see his notes kind of early. I get to see what's going on and type those in. And that's where I got my, uh, my only tech knowledge that I have right now. Um, is a little bit that you have. It's a little bit, a little tiny bit that I had to have. God bless me here. Um, was because they said, Hey, we think you can do this. Um, and even for the stacking chairs and Oh boy, don't tell me you want a microphone unless you've stacked over a thousand chairs of cumulative time in your lifetime. Those who have the mic, the most have probably changed the most diapers and have probably also stacked the most chairs or put up some pipe and drape in their lifetime. And so to me though, it was like, this is what this like, it wasn't your force to do this. It was like, I think actually people are going to see you as an example and your friends and the people, you know, did you know that there are older people in church who are not serving and you can show them how to do this. I remember them having a conversation with me and they said, you can influence people who are older than you. How cool is that? I remember going, I don't think I can do that. And they said, no, Eli, just like how you're a captain of your sports team, you can bring that into church and like, you can help people get more involved in church and they'll stick around because now they have a purpose in church. And now here we are 15 years later and I lead all of our serve teams. And so I just can see how God started with something there at 12 years old. And to here I am leading serve teams at 28 years old. And so those are, I don't really have a third thing. So those are my two things. So John, take it away. Yeah. Well, one thing I'll say with that, John just reminded me last night, we're in the middle of a revival week, just hanging out with our church and John's preaching some great messages so far. And last night we're serving them a meal every night, just hanging out with our church family. And we were setting out the food. My kids were there helping and we set the cups and the drinks and everything out. And Birdie goes, dad, can I help serve the drinks? I said, sure, you can help. I said, but you know, if someone else comes and wants to do it, go ahead and let them do it. But you know, hang out here the entire time. Like he wouldn't even come and eat his food because he was wanting to make sure that everyone had a drink and like they were walking in the door. What do you want to drink? All right. He would go and get it. And before they even got in line, he was handling their drink. He was walking around refilling John's drink and just. He was bringing cups to tables. I mean, it was great. It was like the drinks was the most important job in the world at the time. And he was going to do it perfectly. Yeah. And I can bet. And I can bet the reason that is the case is because I saw it modeled and more is caught than taught. Yeah. And so they saw that happen. And I saw that happen with my parents. And I saw just like you, they, you probably at times that I'm going to serve these and I'm going to be the least of these until then. And so that they probably saw that in you guys as well. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. John, what about you? What are some things that you can help us out with on some things that we should do with our kids? The ministry of lyrics. I'm not sure I can top that. That's pretty cool. I love it. Yes. So my, my top three are living an authentic Christian life in front of your kids. And everybody understands all the pros of that. They understand like the loving God's word and loving God being the same in front of their kids as they are in front of the church. People get that. I think the big one in the authentic Christian life that most pastors and most Christians, I would imagine struggle with is regularly admitting when you're wrong and modeling what forgiveness looks like. You will gain so much leverage with your PKs when you're willing to go to them and say, I got that wrong. When you're preaching, your sermons become that much more powerful to them because they know how you are when you're not preaching. And so they're always receiving your messages and your ministry through that filter. And so we always think, oh man, I got, you know, I'm, I'm not a hypocrite. Like I'm pretty, pretty much the same in front of church people as I am at home. But the number one thing in that authenticity is being willing to admit out loud. I was wrong about that. Hey son, hey daughter, would you forgive me? You know, this is the first time I've ever parented a 12 year old. And then the next year, it's the first time I've ever parented a 13 year old, you know, and that's just so raw and real that it gains. So you gain so much trust leverage. The second is built off something Eli said. It's doing ministry as a family, doing ministry with your kids. Um, if every pastor is like, man, we want to have a family church. We want to be a family church. We want to be a church where young people and a lot of pastors get into this, like, I'm going to do everything on my own. Um, and when you delegate the ministry of lyrics to your kid, especially as a teenager, um, they won't do everything right. They're going to mess some stuff up. And as long as you're cool with that and you're willing to go slow and make it a teachable thing, what really equipped me for ministry. I got like this and Eli, the same way got this major, like springboard into ministry. Most people don't get when, when my friends were, you know, who were going to go into ministry, we're still in Bible college and seminary. I had already planted the second campus of our church. And that has everything to do with the good, the bad, and the ugly that I learned doing ministry with my family. We did it together. Um, even when I didn't like what we were doing, we did it together. Um, and so I, and, and the pros and cons to that, you know, that we've already talked about not making everything mandatory. Like, you know, we were in church Sunday morning, bus route, Sunday morning, Sunday school, Sunday morning service, Sunday night, choir practice, Sunday night service, you know, Tuesday night Bible Institute, Wednesday night prayer meeting, Thursday night, hospital visitation, Friday night, reformers unanimous, Saturday morning, men's prayer, Saturday afternoon, door to door. Like we were in church every day, but Monday, I wish that some of those things would have been like, um, Hey, I know you're a teenager and like to, you know, hang out with friends. You should do that, you know? Um, but the pro would be doing stuff together within reason. And then really, and this is huge asking your kids opinion or perspective or advice. However, you want to word that to make it more comfortable for you, their opinion, their perspective, or their advice, because your kids see things you don't, and they hear things you don't, and they know things that you don't. And, um, if you want to reach a younger generation, you've got people that are going to be honest with you right there, as long as they feel like they can be honest without judgment. Um, like if your kid has the, the permission and I, I know firsthand from Eli's dad, that he had this permission to say, dad didn't get the sermon today. Um, they weren't in, he wasn't in trouble for saying that, you know, whereas I, I did that recently. My grandfather, they're the man of God, you know? So if I said, grandpa didn't understand the sermon today, it was like, well, because you don't have the Holy spirit interpreting it, you know? Um, so those would be my big, if you do those things, your kids will love you more. They'll love the church more. And many times they stick around and serve with you once they have the ability to leave the nest. And even if they don't, it's just super cool when preacher's kids love the ministry after they graduate high school or college. Um, and like him or hate him love his theology or hate it. One thing that I think is brilliant that Andy Stanley does, um, is if you put on your resume that you're a preacher's kid, um, you're at the top of the list of people they hire because they're like, if you've been through all of that as a PK and you still want to serve Jesus, then we want you on our team. That's amazing. Way, way more. That's amazing. Can I just piggyback real quick off of that? And that I actually, as a kid, do not remember one single message my dad preached. I can remember like maybe some bits and pieces of it here, but even our brains don't have the capability of just remembering that many. You may in your lifetime only remember like 10 messages, but you know what I do remember? I remember a Saturday afternoon, my parent, my dad took me and four friends to the lunch and he said, I want you guys to help me with tomorrow's message. And I want you guys to collectively come up with three points on relationships that you guys are going through as high schoolers, because I bet some of that stuff will translate into people who are 88 or 18 or eight years old. And the topic that day was on friendship. And he was like, what better go to than a four group of guys that are in high school to talk about friendships. And that's what we did. And I'll never forget that. And I'll never forget that, that day either. That he said, you know, I see something in you four knuckleheads. One, I mean, we were the dumber than dumb. We probably were up till 4am drinking Mountain Dew the night before, you know, like just doing stupid stuff. And, but he said, you know what? Um, if we want to have a church that reaches the next generation, I'm going to bring my son and his friends and into this and ask for their opinion. So like what John just said, they're absolutely a hundred percent true in my life. And I'm a testimony of, of that. So thank you for sharing that, John. I'm sitting here feeling like, okay, I've got the course correct on so many things as a pastor. John, this is the second time we've heard this, John. It's just like, Eli said that he doesn't remember any sermons his dad preached or at least not many. And I think that's because his dad wasn't the alliterated independent Baptist. Like that's true. I remember my dad's sermon called the five most asked questions about hell. What's points were what the hell, when the hell, why the hell, who the hell, where the hell, where he turned the thermostat in our auditorium to 90 degrees. He did not do that. Yeah. He did. He did. Or the sermon from, I think it's second King, no, maybe Ezekiel. One of those were the walls of Jerusalem and they're eating in the King James ass head and dove dung soup. And that was the title of the sermon. It's his ass head and dove dung. Like I remember all of those. Exactly. Yeah. So, and I don't want to sound, because you were probably thinking this is awesome. My dad's cussing in the pulpit. Where can I find this soup at? When, at the fifth Sunday dinner, Ethel makes it and you look for the flowery crock pot and you don't eat out of that one. I can remember my dad's, some of his illustrations, like the only one I remember is him falling off a ladder. I remember him bringing a dunk tank into church and him getting dunked and now representing getting baptized of the Holy Spirit and, and kind of like throwing up and baptism Sunday coming up. And he went into a dunk tank. And like, I remember some of those things. I definitely remember him falling off the ladder, but I can't say that I remember his five points on, you know, more than 10 messages that he's ever, ever done. And I'm in there two Sundays for the past 18 years of my life. So, so that's funny. That's great. That's awesome. I am going to, I'm going to change the last question. You did say you're in court, correct. So go ahead. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to scratch that last question. And this is what I want to ask, because we are reading a book right now called Dangerous Calling by Paul Tripp and really examine sort of the toxic pastoral culture that in evangelicalism in America. And as I'm reading through it, I'm like, it's wrecking me. And I'm just like, this is amazing stuff. I need this. But at the same time, I feel like there's so many things here that I wish my church could hear, but I can't really tell them. And so the, the, the, the last question that I want to move towards is sort of this, what would be some practical, maybe any type of tips or perspectives, and I'm throwing this on you last second, um, that we could do with our kids to protect them or to, um, that maybe, or maybe that our church people need to hear about. Cause I, I feel like I don't even, I'm not even asking this correctly. That's a good question, but it makes sense to me. No, but it's what I'm trying to get across is what I'm trying to get across is, is like, I feel like that a lot of time that the culture within the church, within the pew has this attitude of how our kids should behave. The perfect kid. Right. Right. And what is maybe some, like, is there any type of things that we can do as pastors to shepherd our people on how they should treat our kids? That's a good question, John. I think, yeah, I finally got to it when it was coming out. Three minutes later, if you wanted to fast forward to those last three minutes, you'll get to the question a little bit easier. Does that make any sense guys? That was, that's a great question. And you're a great parent for asking that. Um, there, there's an, there's an element of the fishbowl and the expectations that just never goes away. And it's funny that it's not just established church culture that thinks this way. Person gets saved, comes into the church body. Three weeks later, they're looking at the pastor's family for, and it's not always a legalistic, like you're a PK. You can't do that. Sometimes it's like, well, who am I going to model my family after now? Um, now I'm looking to the pastor and his family and they're my example. And that's, so my expectations are high because these people are all supposed to be perfect. Um, so how to disciple your people? Well, um, your people are going to present you with some great opportunities to speak into this and you want to speak into them honestly, as publicly as you possibly can. Um, now one thing is right there, one thing is like, just know that when you use your kid as a sermon illustration, um, you've just removed a little bit of their privacy. Um, and so like, especially when you're telling about something bad that your kid has done, or, you know, even if they were like a little kid, you know, and they tried to run away from home, that's a thing that everybody knows about them now that they didn't tell. And so now people are like, Hey kid. So you're trying to run away from home, you know, and kids don't know how to respond to stupid questions. Old people ask because they're trying to make small talk. Um, but inevitably some person is going to come to you and be like, Hey, your kid did this. And in front of as many people as you possibly can, as gently and as pastorally as you possibly can, your kid needs to hear you say, how about I'll parent my kids and you parent yours. Um, as publicly as you possibly can, when, um, when the opportunity presents itself, even in, in sermons to talk about parenting and to confess, I'm not a perfect parent and I don't parent perfect kids. And my kids are the exact same as your kids. They're absolutely no different. And some pastors go to an extreme and they harp on it, you know, like leave my kids alone. Well, that doesn't do them any good, but when you're able to pastorally guide people into understanding my kid is a kid. And the only expectation I have of them as a parent is that they be a kid. Um, that's so helpful for the people. And it's also helpful that your kids heard you say that. Um, because they're like, my dad's got my back publicly and we can disagree privately or I can be, you know, nine years old sitting in the Sunday night service. I can be a bad kid. You know, their mentality is different. I can be a bad kid, but my dad loves me. And he just told the whole church. Like that's, that's such a huge deal. I don't know if that's helpful at all. Does that answer your question? I think that was even something that was in my mind that I didn't articulate. Like, is this something that we just handle as private situations one at a time? Or is this something that actually needs to be said behind the pulpit? Straight up. It does. And as the text lends itself to utilizing even your own self and parenting as an illustration, use it as people try to call out your kids publicly, call them out publicly. Um, and it's not to be mean, but it is to let people know, um, like take care of your own business and I'll take care of mine, but I'm here to parent my kid, my kid. You're welcome to be an adopted grandparent, but they only have one mom and one dad. And that's me. And, you know, we like, I grew up in the really bad balance of that, where if I did something in Sunday school, there was, you know, a two for one, these teachers all thought they had the permission to, you know, scold me or punish me. And then I knew I was going to get a double dose from my, you know, parents. And then, you know, it, so it was going to be public in front of the kids. And then I was going to be private at home. And, uh, so I felt like I had all these people that were the boss of me and it's impossible to please everyone because, you know, sister Brenda was like, Hey, I need you to go do this for me because you're the preacher's kid and you have to do whatever I say. And then, you know, brother Bob over here needs me to go do this. And so now I don't know what to do. And I've got all these adopted parents and I can't please all of them. And my parents didn't step in and help with that. They just kind of were like, well, you got to obey your elders. And I'm like, well, my elders all have different opinions and I don't know how to process that. Right. And honestly, I don't really have anything to add to that. I think that's pretty much John had the nail on the head with that. I think just even having an awareness of your kids that they are in this kind of a glass house now being watched for better or for, for worse. But not making it feel like you have to be perfect, but just like you having the awareness for them and knowing that obviously you see your kids fail and yet you still love them immensely. And having that same kind of projecting that same love that you have for them to the congregation and to my parents. One of the things that they love doing is they love talking about parenting. They loved being able to do that. They've done. We always had parenting conferences and events and things like that. So for us, it was, we were talked about a lot. We weren't like talked about a lot like our problems were, but they talked about their perspectives and areas where they have failed. And it was never like Eli was bad for this. It was, we did not model this well enough or they heard us arguing and now they want to argue with us like kind of things. It was never, I never felt like targeted in that area. And I would say this, like, honestly, I'm not saying this because they may be listening and things like that, but they did such a good job of not making me feel like crap. So I have been in a church before and I've seen this happen where the pastor's kid just was just getting torn to pieces up there. Like actually called out during the sermon. And I don't know, maybe it was John, maybe you even said it once where you got in trouble from the pulpit of like being told to like shut up or to sit still or something like that. And I've seen that happen before. And I just, I was always like, oh my gosh, like I'm terrified. Maybe I was also terrified in church to do things because I saw that happen too. I was scared that my parents would do that and they didn't. But when you're 12 years old, you don't really know anything. So now I would never say this just for the record, for all that are listening, I would never say this because I'm too good of a Christian. But if Jason Earls were here, he would say something akin to, it might be a glass house, but it's my house, not your ass house. He would say glass house, but not your ass house. And he would, again, I would never say that out loud, but I think he might. Yeah, you're just direct quote, James Earls. Yeah, absolutely. I think so too. That's awesome. Well, hey, I appreciate you guys coming on. I learned a lot today and this was the second time for me to go through this again. And I took notes like I did last time and it was a blessing. It was a great reminder for me as a parent, as a kid who's got an eight-year-old, a six-year-old and a newborn to be conscious of these things. I think so many times as a pastor, I'm just, I don't think they're listening or I don't think that they're going to understand or whatever it may be. And I think this is a good reminder for me just to take a second and reevaluate some things in my personal life. So that was great. John, if you don't mind me to add to what you just said, we get to meet a lot of parents who feel like a failure because their kids don't talk to them about all their issues. And that's a pretty normal PK thing. Yeah. Um, your kids are listening to your sermons and they're learning and the Holy Spirit's dealing with them. I promise. Yeah. But it's also a good thing for them to have also other pastoral figures that can speak into their life. Like hire a youth pastor that you trust your kids with because they will become your kid's best friend. Um, they'll be in the office with them during the week. And they'll be in the youth group with them on Wednesday night. And I know we talked about this last time, but as a pastor, if you ever need someone to talk to, you can send your kids our way and we'd love to talk to them. But if you need help, Standing Stone Counseling is free for pastors. And it's, and it's pastors who do counseling for pastors and it's just so helpful. Um, and, uh, you, if your family's healthy, your church will be healthy and you'll be healthy and it's going to be a beautiful thing. You parents, pastors that are even taking the time to listen to this, you're rock stars and you're doing a great job and even better than you think. What was that website again? Standing Stone. It's called Standing Stone Counseling. Okay. And it's, uh, it's a accredited, um, certified counseling service. They've got offices in almost all 50 States. And if there's not one near you, they'll meet you over zoom or a phone call. Cool. And, uh, it's, it's free for pastors and for pastors kids. Um, and, uh, it's just been a great resource. It's awesome. Uh, well, I, I, I wanted to say something to, uh, to anybody who's listening. Um, I want to encourage and drive people to the preacher's kid podcast. And, um, I know that maybe some people might be listening to this and I hope nobody's skipped it because of the, the, the niche aspect of the preacher's kid. But if you're listening to this, here's what I want to say about that. The last two episodes that you have, has, have done was an interview with John Piper's son, Barnabas Piper. And let me say this. I think you need to go listen to that. Even if you are not in ministry and even if you were never a ministry kid, because as I was this last question that I asked, I think that there is a lot of good stuff in those two, two part, that two part interview that lay people in the church need to hear about what preacher's kid's life is like and a proper perspective on it. And so we're, uh, we, we recognize we have a niche as well. I think that the, there are some episodes in you guys' podcast that everybody needs to listen to that is involved in any type of church culture. And, uh, so I appreciate what you guys are doing and the help that you're providing for those. And I know that even you guys from conversations we've had, you guys even work with, uh, those who were preacher's kids that have struggled with their faith. And so I just want to commend you guys for that work as well. And, and just, you know, the ministry that you, God has given you in this, this realm. And so, um, thank you guys for coming on. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thank you so much. We, I think that you guys are doing an amazing thing as well. And so, um, if you are listening still, um, keep listening to them, be their biggest supporters, comments on their stuff, like their stuff, share their stuff. Uh, not just this one, but everything else that they're doing and, um, absolutely love them. If you're in their congregation, you're listening to this. Um, I would say just honor them, shower them with love as much as you can and encouragement because there are two incredible people doing an incredible ministry here. And they're way better than the church split in the RFP. I mean, just like light years beyond. So we have to give a dig at will almost every episode since the meetup. It's almost like it's, it's part of our episode now. That's good. That's great, man. We love it. It's awesome. Well guys, I think, uh, Eli has given us the sort of rundown of like that. So we'll just move on from there. Until next time to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFP network.org to find more podcasts like this one resources and meetups to encourage you on your journey. Thank you. Thank you. you

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