54. Help! I've Been Diagnosed with a Mental Disorder: An Interview with Christine Chappell

I do not mean to be mean, I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. But you know there's something about that local Newcastle that independent from the middle cell where he said, where he can't get a Bible weekend, and by a damn reason, he paid a letter of free tribulation to a man of the Baptist church. I still believe if you're cold today in hell before I get my dallies from a woman, I'm a preacher. The young preachers that do love God get pulled off in the cabin is, and I'll fight it, I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over it, I'll get personal with you. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP network that seeks to bring freedom in Christ from the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Hollifield and James Sabrett. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of the principle, but the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive, but what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome everybody to the For Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, John Hollifield. I'm here with my co-host, the other guy in the chair over in North Carolina, big Jimmy Styrofoam, James Sabrett. How are you doing, man? Yes, sir. I'm doing well. We are having a lot of good times. We just got back from a counseling conference. I was there in person. John decided to stay home and be a bum and hang out on the couch and watch it from his bedroom, I think, a couple of times. I don't know what he was doing. It was the kitchen. It was the kitchen, hospital. I don't know where he was at. But it was a great time for me just to get away for a couple of days, meet some new faces, meet some new people, and see some old friends. I got to meet a couple of people from college that was there that was very surprising, from Kentucky. And so that was a great time to be able to see that and to be there for that. But, John, what's been going on in your life? How's ministry been doing? How's things been going on in your time? It has been nonstop. We missed last week, not just because of the conference, but there's so much going on with just pastor ministry. We've got a lot of members right now that's just suffering and in the hospital. So that's where my attentions have needed to be. And so if that's the case, then this is going to take the back burner. This is not our first and foremost thing to do, although we enjoy doing it. And plus, we understand that our goal is to help others with a similar background. But it's been 100 miles per hour in the past couple of weeks. And still really not slowed down a whole lot. So we still got a lot of things going on over here. But we said a couple of weeks ago that we were going to be changing a little bit of our direction and some things coming down the pipeline that we had planned for the podcast. And so this is where we're starting that. So we're actually going to be moving in a direction with the podcast where we're really going to be centering and focusing more on everyday life topics, counseling sort of topics, and those types of things. And trying to have on guests that are really able to speak into that and have done works in that. And so this is really the beginning of that. I know in the beginning days we had authors on like Ben Marshall and Joy Forrest. And so we're going to get really sort of keep that as sort of our bread and butter moving forward. Wait a minute. So we are going to be moving forward with some new episodes on counseling. John, before we do that, we do want to let our listeners know that we are not going to be stopping our Galatians series. We are going to pick that up. We've had a lot of good response, a lot of good input from you guys. And so we are going to be doing some interviews, but we're going to spread those out over this Galatians series. And we do have a YouTube page. And so on that YouTube page, we are itemizing in groups in viewing categories. So you can go and look at all of our RFP crossover event, our Galatians series as well, if you miss one, or it'll be on our podcast page. But it will be a little more organized on the YouTube page as well. So, John, go ahead and introduce our guests for today. Yeah. So we're excited today to have Christine Chappell with us today. And Christine, welcome. And then I'll give sort of like a bio for you, but it's good to have you today. Yeah. Thank you, John and James. Good to see you. It was nice to meet you last week at the ACBC conference. So thank you so much for inviting me to chat on the show today. I appreciate it. Yeah, we're excited. Christine is a biblical counselor. She is a author of a few books, and we're going to be talking mainly about her new one today. And she is the host of the Hope and Help podcast, the outreach director for IBCD, the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. She is, and most importantly, and we say this not because we're chauvinistic, but we say this even with our male guests, because we believe family is huge. And so most importantly, she's a wife and mother of three. And so we are so excited. And she had just recently, what I was saying was, she's just recently wrote and just released a new book called Help, I've Been Diagnosed With a Mental Disorder. And so we want to talk a little bit about that. But Christine, before we do, let's, I want to talk a little bit just because I love your podcast. I do. I have shared it so many times with either my wife or somebody else in our church that's going through a specific issue with a guest that you interviewed. And I really think, I know that our audience has definitely got like a podcast list that's really long. So everybody's like, oh, yay, another podcast added to the list. But I really would like to drive people to this because I think it's so helpful. But it's the Hope and Help podcast. Could you give us just sort of a little bit of a plug for, you know, what you do and what it's about? Yeah. So the Hope and Help podcast actually started, I'll give you a little backstory. It actually started as my own personal production in 2019. And at the end of that year, I was approached by some friends at IBCD. And they basically, I said, hey, would you be willing to bring your podcast under our ministry umbrella? We'd love to have the show as part of our official, you know, ministry offering. And I said, yeah, I would love to do that. So I was really excited to, yeah, to get that opportunity. And so ever since then, we've been putting out episodes through IBCD's platform. And so the Hope and Help podcast, there we have biblical conversations about life's challenging problems. My aim with the show is to interview authors, ministry leaders, biblical counselors. Usually the guest that I have on the show has written some kind of a resource relevant to the topic that we are talking about in that episode. So all of our episodes deal with one particular problem. And so, you know, recently we had Hope and Help for Fearful Hearts. We've had Hope and Help for Bipolar Disorder, Hope and Help for PTSD, Hope and Help for Depressed Christians, and so on and so forth. And so that's kind of the format of the show, although we don't only stick to, you know, issues related to what we're talking about today. We have all different kinds of problems that we address. And so, yeah, we release those episodes a couple times a month and have just been really blessed by how far the Lord has taken those episodes really on a global scale for our friends all around the world to listen to. As long as you have an internet connection, you can listen online or, you know, like your guys' show, stream through a podcast app. And yeah, so I'm thankful to be the host, and I'm glad if it has been helpful to you and your personal ministry, John. Yeah, we're going to be, we'll link the podcast later, and there's so many good episodes. But one of the ones that I think really stands out to me, like just sort of hearing some of these things for the first time was the one you did. And it's been about a year, over a year, but you did one on friendship, lost theology for one another care. And you did, you did sort of a two-parter later on. You did one with men and one with women. But the one with the ladies was just like, there's so many, like some of the things that were just said there. I thought, wow, that was like, just breaking down some of these stereotypes with how we're supposed to view friends as Christians. And breaking those types of things down and looking at them biblically was, I really enjoyed that. So I may specifically link that one for our listeners too, because I think it'd be really good. Yeah, well, that conversation was actually based on the 2020 conference that we had planned. We had planned to do a whole conference on friendship, a lost theology of one another care. And of course, COVID shut that down. So we thought, well, what can we do instead of the conference? So that particular weekend, we ended up hosting two Facebook lives, one with the men's panel, and then one with like, if you're talking about the women's panel. And, you know, thankfully, we are in the talks of trying to put that conference back on. So hopefully, you know, June of next year, we will be able to finally bring all of those different conversations to, not the Escondido area, but California, Southern California area. And then hear even more from the speakers that we had on those episodes. So I'm glad they were an encouragement to you. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we're here to talk about your new book, Help, I've Been Diagnosed With a Mental Disorder. And I guess the first question we wanted to get into is, I guess, probably the question, most leading question for this. Why did you want to write on this subject? Yeah. Well, what's really great about the Lifeline mini book series, and that's what this mini book is a part of, is that all of the authors who are writing on a particular topic are writing out of their own lived experience. And so this book is no different. Labeled with a few different things going on at that point when I was 18. It was before I came to Christ. So a whole different season of life. But then fast forward, you know, having gone through the process again of another hospitalization and as a Christian and as a ministry, you know, leader, as a mother of three, I was married, you know, so totally different experiences. And so, you know, part of my wanting to write this book was just to comfort others with the comfort that I received from God in the midst of that kind of post-diagnosis journey. What does my faith in Christ mean for, you know, moving forward in light of, you know, these problems that I'm having? How do the scriptures help to inform my response to the various challenges that I had been facing for a really long time? And so that's really my heart for the book. I wanted it to be something where if you take this mini book and walk away, you will feel like we have sat down for coffee for an hour or two. And I just poured out my heart to encourage you that there is hope. There is hope that the label, you know, doesn't need to define your life moving forward that we can really cling to and turn to some stabilizing biblical truths about our personhood, our purpose in life, our potential for making God glorifying progress on the journey. And so, so yeah, that's, that's the heart behind the book. Yeah. I absolutely loved it. I mean, I was the whole time through, I was just like, this is, it was, it was one of those things where it was like the right read at the perfect time for what I was working through with someone. And so it was like, oh, like every page, there was something. And James, I know that you got the book a little later. Were you able to, to get it read? Yep. I finished the book. Very, very, what I liked about the book the most was it was exactly like you said. It was one of those easy read. I sat there, read it. It was like a conversation. It was like a back and forth. Just, it wasn't like overbearing. It was just really refreshing. I would say a good word would be to be able to hear and to see your experience and your, what you had went through. It sort of leads into our next question. One, what, what was the diagnosis that you received? And then what was your reaction to that diagnosis when you received it? Did you sort of walk through that with us as we, we continue on with the conversation? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, the first go around, I could say, when I was a teenager, you know, I had been diagnosed with a depression disorder, eating disorder, panic disorder. I had self-injury, which is not classified, I don't think, as a disorder. But this is kind of the things that I was going through as a self-injurious behavior and had struggled even with some suicidal ideation, which is what got me landed into the hospital for the first time. But, you know, as time progressed, I, you know, seemed to kind of move past those things. And by God's grace, you know, they weren't all part of my story moving into adulthood, but some things did linger on, especially the depression and the depression component. And so all throughout my adulthood had experienced, you know, kind of cycling through depressive lows and emotional highs, I guess you could say. And, and so for the second time, when I went into the hospital again for suicidal ideation, and it was really awful, but they had diagnosed me at that time with bipolar disorder too, based on my history and based on the, some of the symptoms that I had described. And so when I went into the hospital, I knew what I was going to get, I wasn't looking for treatments, really, I was just honestly, I think that is the experience, you know, with, with some people who go through this route to get care is that you get to a point where you need help, and you can't do it on your own. And nobody knows that nobody knows how else to help you. And so in order for, to protect yourself and keep yourself safe, right, it's like going to the hospital is the best choice at that time, just for safety purposes. And so that's, you know, the choice that my husband and I made at that time. But when I first got the diagnosis, or the label, you know, I really had to wrestle with a few different questions and concerns about what this meant for my future. What did it mean for who I am as a person? What did it mean for my ministry? You know, am I now disqualified? You know, am I, am I basically damaged goods? And this is where my story ends. And it's never going to be any better. Life's always going to be this way. I mean, you just start getting pummeled with all of these overwhelming questions. And that's really, you know, another reason why I wanted to write this mini book was to kind of address some of those things, to let people know that you're not, it's not abnormal to be wrestling with these questions in this particular context. But that God's word does give us encouragement and comfort and hope and wisdom for kind of navigating what the coming days and weeks and months is going to look like. And so I don't know if we want to talk about specific challenges in terms of what the issues were and questions were that I was wrestling through. But, you know, just in summary, it's confusing and disorienting for a lot of people because just because you've been labeled with something doesn't really offer a whole lot of help as to, okay, well, so now what? You know, and especially if you've been struggling for a very long time with a particular issue, you may already be feeling pretty hopeless and helpless that that life could ever be different. And so, yeah, it's just a really, it was difficult, but, but, you know, and another story for another time, but God met me in the mental hospital in a very powerful and life changing way. And I have not ever been the same ever since it was like that, that tragic week, um, that God redeemed it, you know, and as he does, like that's his M O is to bring glory and new life from where you're in the pit of death. That feels like, and, um, and I'm here to testify. That's exactly what he did for me. And, um, you know, so, so even when we are labeled with a disorder, uh, it can be a, become a catalyst for care, but also can become a catalyst for, you know, major life change. Yeah. I've got a question real quick. You, you already had kids at this moment, correct? When you were in the hospital, how did this isn't even our, our list just came to my mind. How did your kids respond with you even going to the hospital? And, and this may be too personal if you don't want to answer that's fine. And, you know, now that the diagnosis has happened, did you talk through that with them? Uh, how was their response and their reaction, I guess, would be toward all of what, what happened and in the situation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, my two youngest ones were pretty young. They, they wouldn't even remember that I was, I was gone for a week. And, um, the first day I went was actually the first day of school for my eldest daughter. So I, you know, said, mom said goodbye on when you were getting on the bus and then you come home and mom's not there. Where'd she go? You know, like, that's a very, um, you know, I don't know what my husband had to tell her. I wasn't there. Um, but it, I, I don't mind talking about it. In fact, I'm working on a book for PNR publishing called midnight mercies and the subtitle is kind of up in the air, but the, the gist of it is hope for depression and motherhood. And that's the, like the first thing I lead out with in that book is. You know, basically I, I waved goodbye to the school bus and then we got in the car and went to the hospital. Um, you know, and I know I'm not the only mother. I know mothers now, even who are going through hard times and having to navigate. How do I, uh, how do I handle this with my kids? And, um, honestly, because my kids were so young, I didn't really take the time to, to go into it because they would not have understood anyways. Um, you know, so it would be, thank you for asking that question. Cause it reminds me, maybe I should ask what my husband kind of had to go through on, on that. But, uh, and, and then to also, you know, be honest when, when I'm talking about, you know, this particular label and the struggles that I've had, you know, I want to praise God that this is not a part of my life anymore. You know, after almost, it was like 16 or 17 years of just nonstop, God redeemed this challenge for his glory and changed me, you know? And so I also just, and this is not really part of your question, but I just want to offer encouragement. And I know that my story is not everyone's story. Right. But there's no reason not to hope for that change, as long as it's not like our happiness and our security is dependent upon it. You know what I mean? Um, and so I'm thankful. I'm thankful that, you know, my daughter who is, um, is 15 years old now, you know, she knows I write these books. She knows I write on these topics and I'm, I'm not hesitant to explain, um, you know, about it because we need to equip our kids with a theology. Of suffering with a theology of sorrow, you know, what it is to grieve and how do we grieve in ways that, you know, lead to trust and deepen faith instead of bitterness and anger toward God. Um, you know, so we could go on and on about it, but that's, that's just off the cuff. My response. I really appreciated your honesty in the book. I actually wrote that, um, I think in my review about, you know, just the candidness that you were willing to, um, open. Up and, and, and talk about that. Uh, but I think one of the, the, the, the high points of the book is the fact that yes, you mentioned your specific diagnosis, but I think this, the way you're able to present the help in the book. Is, is help to where it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is. It's going to be applicable to you. Right. Because I, I really love the point where you hit on the idea that. Okay. So you got the label, but the label doesn't really help you. Right. And, uh, you, I, I highlighted this early on in the book and you said this, and it sort of goes along with what you've been saying about how God redeemed you. You said the diagnosis you've been given cannot separate you from the father's faithful love. And I, I just love that because I'm like, you know, that's, that's what a lot of people need to hear because I think when receiving that initial diagnosis for some, I mean, it can be really like, some could say, oh, okay. So now I know, but then some can be really devastated over it. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think just, uh, what my goal was with this book is to remind the reader of how God views them today as they are in Christ. Right. Because there's no man-made label that can influence God's view of us in Christ. No matter what that label is, whether it's a mental disorder label, or it's a, you know, a chronic illness label or, or your job title, like none of those man-made labels or titles or names. I'm not saying they're not helpful or, you know, necessary part of everyday language sometimes, but it's not ultimately determinative of our identity. And especially in this context, it's not ultimately determinative of our destiny. Right. I mean, we may be called to suffer for, through various problems and challenges related to, you know, uh, the, the label we've been given for a lifetime. I, I'm not standing in this, I'm not offering in this book, like, Hey, if you do these five things, um, then you're going to experience emotional prosperity. Right. And that is something that I think, you know, at least from my observations is sometimes that's presented as that's what the Christian life is. It's a life of emotional prosperity. Um, but we don't see that in the life of Christ. And we don't see that in the life of even the apostles. I mean, the apostle Paul, you know, is very honest about his challenges and his struggles. And the fact that, you know, there was once something he went through that was so terrible that he despaired of life itself. He thought that there was no way out of the situation that he was in. Right. But he says that that happened so that he would rely on God who raises the dead instead of himself. And so that's really what I'm trying to get at, you know, among other things in this book is just to encourage people with that, that heaven minded perspective and to embrace God's perspective as their own, um, in the midst of this journey. And that's how we begin to really even invite hope back into the picture. Hope that has maybe seemed distant for a really long time. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was extremely insightful to, to tackle the subject of identity with this. And I, I don't have, I was trying to find it here real quick, but, um, there was, there's a quote that you actually put in there from someone else that talked about like, you know, when someone has cancer, we don't say I'm cancer. And why have we treated labels for mental disorders that way? And it's, it's a problem. And I thought, man, that is so good because really that can be the culprit of a lot of our, uh, struggles is where is the identity factor coming to play in. Right. Right. I mean, yeah, again, a lot of what I write in this book is so applicable just to everyone. It's not, and it's non-specific because ultimately what we're talking about is saints who are struggling with suffering and sin in a broken world. That's every problem, you know? And so I'm just trying to, you know, share these foundational biblical truths and reminders in the context of being labeled with a, with a disorder. Um, and you're right. I mean, the quote that I referenced in the book is actually from Michael Emlett, Dr. Michael Emlett, who wrote descriptions and prescriptions, which is a book that if you are interested in learning more about the conversation, um, about how to, you know, a biblical perspective on psychiatric diagnoses and medications. I would highly recommend that book. It's from, you know, he works at, uh, CCEF, the Christian counseling and educational foundation. And I, um, really appreciated his, uh, what he presents in that book. It's a short read and very helpful. Um, but even in secular psychology, I mean, the terminology that is being used for mental disorders, or some people may call them mental illnesses. Some people may call them mental health issues. Like all of the terminology is super not helpful and is constantly being debated. We have to be honest, right? I mean, we have to be honest and say that this is not even coming from a biblical counseling perspective, but if you just observe and put your finger on the pulse of the conversations happening in secular psychology, you will see that they are wrestling with. How do we, how do we, how do we handle labels? They're not helping people. They're creating stigma. Um, one of the quotes I referenced is from a doctor who calls them sticky and stigmatizing and not very helpful in getting the person to understand the nature of their issues, you know? And, and that's been my experience. So again, trying to kind of undercut all of that excess, constantly changing conversation. And it's important. Those conversations are needed. And God, I think through his common grace is helping people to develop a robust view and helping really people to even see the necessity of soul care. Right. And that, that there are often, or maybe for many people, spiritual solutions to the problems that they're experiencing. Not in all cases, perhaps, but in every case, there is always a spiritual component to consider because we are made in the image of God. We are spiritual beings, body and soul. You can't cut them up and divide them and say, we're just going to handle one and not the other. That's not how God treats us. We look at narratives in the scriptures. We see, you know, for instance, Elijah, how the first thing, when Elijah says, God, I want to die. You know, I don't want to live anymore. Take my life for me. The first thing God does is doesn't give him a, you know, a 10 point sermon on how he needs to have joy and just get over it. Right. He, he, he gives the guy some food and some rest and tends to his physical care and rejuvenates and refreshes him. And then they have these conversations, you know? So I know I'm kind of getting off on a tangent there, but in terms of the identity, you know, I just want people to begin to think about that. Even in secular circles, they're observing that this is an issue. You know, I did a lot of research and even read articles about, you know, voices in the secular field. Just saying how unhelpful that the labels are in getting people to have hope for the fact that this is not necessarily a lifelong issue. And that is another thing that I, I take issue with in terms of, you know, the labels and the way that we may view them is that it's like, for me, you hear the fact that I have been previously diagnosed with bipolar disorder too. Many people will hear that and then assume that that's something that's still part of my life or that I'm still, I'm still broken in those ways. Or I still tend to those, you know, the various things I struggled with a number of years ago. And I, I'm not, you know, but I remember even someone telling me that they were previously diagnosed with schizophrenia and by God's grace, it was not an issue anymore. This was about 10 years ago now. And I, I'm ashamed to admit that my response to that person in my head didn't say it out loud, of course, because we filter our responses, but I, in my head, I'm like, yeah, right. Yeah, right. And that is, isn't that sad? Hmm. And I mean, I'm being honest and depending on what your background is with these types of things, maybe some people listening thought that about who me. Yeah, right. You know, I mean, it's, it's an honest, it's an honest, just observation that tells us that even it influences our own perception of ourselves of, in terms of if we make our label the identity, it informs how we respond to the world, informs how we respond to people around us. But if we're being honest, caregivers, pastors, people who know that we have been labeled, well, now all of a sudden, there's that temptation of now other people are viewing us differently as well. Instead of viewing us as a brother and sister in Christ who is struggling with a particular issue and they need encouragement and support and biblical counsel and care. You know, it can stain all, it stains everything. And so it's good to be mindful. Good to be mindful of it. Yeah. James, just go ahead and mark that down for the show notes. The last three minutes there was gold. Yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I felt like I was blabbering. I'm sorry. That was fantastic. That was great. It reminded me a lot of, so when I was first started to listen to some of Curtis Solomon's material, and he talked about how PTSD and biblical counseling, we don't call it PTSD because we don't believe it's a disorder to be experiencing post-traumatic stress when you've been through a traumatic event. And I can't tell you, Christine, how many times I've actually shared that, just that right there, that concept with people and seeing their face, just like, you're right. You know, it just like totally breaks down this idea of, like you said, the stigma that we have with people by saying disorder, disorder, disorder. Yeah. And God doesn't view us that way. Right. I say that in the book, is that right now as you stand, I don't care what label you have and what the prognosis is. God does not view you as disordered. He does not at all relate to you that way. The sad thing is that other people will. And you know what? Even in my communications with people who work as social workers or in that context, you know, they see it too. They see how the labels will influence the way patients are treated, influence the way that patients are talked about behind closed doors. You know, and so it's not so innocent. It's not so innocent. And it's sad, but this is the reality that we're in. And so I do not, I want to just be clear in the mini book. I don't go into debates. That was really important to me to not try to at all make a comment on, I say, the diagnostic validity or the treatment efficacy of these situations. There are conversations taking place with people who are much more qualified and intelligent than I am. And God, go do that work. And, you know, I'm not that person. I'm not that person to speak into that conversation. I am the person I believe because I'm simply just stewarding the comfort God has given me. And so sharing my story for the purposes of helping the body of Christ navigate this particular challenge. So this mini book does not, does not enter into that dialogue. I don't want someone to think if I give them this book, will it be a chapter on someone trying to invalidate the experience they're going through because of a label debate. That's not what I'm doing. Instead, I hope that I have mimicked Christ's divine hospitality by continuing to invite the reader to come. Right. Come and see a man who told me everything I ever did, you know, everything I ever was, everything I am to him, everything he is to me. And then to show, you know, hopefully through the scriptures, how that gives us hope for the future, but also meaningful help for the day in terms of how do we even begin to think about engaging the problems we're experiencing and bringing that to God and using it as a catalyst for spiritual growth. And fruits, instead of just really getting stuck in a fix it mentality that's super problem centered and, and we'll, you know, ultimately just kind of feed hopelessness and despair because we're not meant to fix ourselves. Yeah, I like sort of wrapping up that that sort of segment of our conversation, you wrote this real simple math equation, your label, plus your symptoms does not equal who you are. I think that right there, that's one of those tweetable things. But James, you have anything to add? That was just really good. I don't think I could add anything more than what she said already. It's great. Well, we sort of been, go ahead, James. I was just going to go and go to the next, next question, but if that's what you're going to ask. What is the next question? The next question is, you mentioned a couple of things as far as you read some psychological stuff to figure out what your diagnosis was, but we're specifically talking about you work at IBCD right now. How did biblical counseling even come on the radar? Were you doing it beforehand? You're seeking biblical counseling and the certification now, and you're almost, I think you said you're like halfway done with the supervision now. So that's part of your journey now, but where did this all come into light with biblical counseling, and why did you even seek out biblical counseling? Yeah, well, actually, I first got introduced to biblical counseling through my pastor, who was trying to offer care for my husband and I as I battled through what my doctor labeled as postpartum depression. So after the birth of our third child was going through a difficult season there, and so he suggested I go to IBCD, who at the time was doing on-site counseling in Escondido, California. And so that's how I got introduced and just really became intrigued by biblical counseling. When I first became a believer right after my dad passed away, I already kind of, I can see now I had a lot of interest in reading books and resources that really dealt with a human heart. I like to say that my first book that was an introduction to biblical counseling was Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands, but funny enough. Awesome book. Right, yeah. But as a new believer, it's kind of meaty. So I really, really, I remember saying to my pastor, I love this first half of the book that's talking about all, you know, it's really putting like the spotlight on your own heart and helping you to understand, you know, your own heart and desires and all of that. But then when it got to like the latter half of the book where it talks about, you know, actually helping other people, I'm like, ooh, that's too hard. I can't do that. So I always was interested. But then I did start to take that track of training for biblical counseling. And after I had met at IBCD for some time and was equipped to, or better equipped at least, to kind of answer those sorrows and those emotions with, you know, biblical truths and all of that. But, but yeah, I mean, when I experienced the second hospitalization, you know, I had biblical counseling training. And I think that it's helpful to talk about the fact, and I know we've, we have seen, I've seen some conversations going on recently and even had one last week with someone who was at the conference where you, you may even begin to think that because you have biblical counseling training, that should make you immune to any kind of problem. I mean, or like, oh, I know how to handle this problem. And so it will be really easy for me to just be like, okay, here's my three things I would tell a counselee to do. Now let me apply that to myself and, and it'll be just fine to get through. But that's not the case, right? I mean, actual life is so much more messy and complicated and nuanced than, than what we might make it out to be. And so when I was diagnosed, you know, I did have mentors. I didn't have official biblical counseling that I was going through, but I did have spiritual mentors who just helped to encourage me and listen to the things that I was learning. I, you know, God used that time. Just like I said before, is this a catalyst for, for growth? And I began to explore all kinds of new resources. I mean, I had never even studied the language of lament. Goodness gracious to walk through nearly two decades of sorrow and grief and to not know that God gives his people a language to bring those things to him and not get stuck in the complaint and bitterness of it, but actually move us to a deeper trust and faith in him. I had no idea. I, I mean, God's plan. Right. And I don't like regret that I didn't know, but I just sometimes think like, man, if I would have known, you know, if I would have known that, um, you know, so you can't go back in time. That's not helpful, but that's again, part of why I was so passionate to even start the podcast two years ago, because we have the resources in God's word. And we need men and women of faith to be pushing that out and screaming from the mountaintops that God does speak to these challenging problems. And the gospel is relevant. It's not irrelevant religious slogan that we just say, have faith or just believe or whatever it is. Jesus gets down to the nitty gritty, right? I mean, he stepped down into this world that he might walk through the valley with us and, and he's walked it before us. He goes before us too. He's all over. And so, um, you know, I'm thankful for biblical counseling. Um, even the counsel I've received through writing, through reading resources, uh, because I learned through listening and reading. I love to do that. Um, but people I've never met have personally counseled me right by through God's word and the resources they've produced, which I think you can see, you know, now with my hope and help podcast. That's what I, that's all I'm doing is, Hey, here's how the gospel intersects with this really, really hard problem. That you may be struggling with and feel like there's no hope and there's no help. Right. But here's a person who is, you know, smarter than me in this topic. And they've had some lived experience. They've written a resource and this is what, and they're sharing what the Bible says about it. And, um, and so, yeah, uh, I'm thankful for biblical counseling. I know that people can have bad experiences and, uh, you know, no people are not perfect, but our savior sure is. And, um, he knows exactly what we need to hear when we need to hear it. And, um, and so, yeah, I'm thankful it's all been folded into my journey and to now be on this side and, and see how God is using it. I mean, I had no idea. You asked me if this is where I was going to be doing 10 years ago. I would have been like, what? Yeah. What are you talking about? One of the things you said was so important that I think that even I didn't understand until just even a couple weeks ago, I was speaking with, I'm a youth pastor. So I'm speaking with school counselors often and seeing that they need help and where they're at and they're in the, in our school system. And I'm passionate about that. And so I was speaking to one of the counselors and she told me, she said, James, I counsel so many kids and, uh, was recently in the middle school and helping out and just dealing with COVID and depression and everything that's going on. She said, she told me, she said, I go to a Christian counselor. Um, I drive 20, 30 minutes away just to go meet with her once a week or once every other week, just so that I can decompress what's going on in my thoughts. Um, and I thought that when I first heard it, my initial response was what you said. Okay. Okay. You're a counselor and you're going to another counselor to get this advice. You should already know these things. And I told my wife that, and she was like, James, she's dealing with things that she needs to process as well. And it really made sense. And that was a couple of weeks ago. So you said that as well, really helped me understand, you know, it's not just for the hurting it's for everyone. It's, we all need to, uh, be getting this advice, this counsel from the Bible that is going to help us in so many more ways than what we ever can imagine. Well, and James, to build off of that, that's because biblical counseling is intensive discipleship. And there's not any believers in Christ who don't need discipleship all the time. We are built to need discipleship. And so when we, when we hear the term counseling or you'll know, I don't know that I've heard Christian therapy, but that may be a term people use, but therapy counseling, you know, these are kind of secular terms. The Bible would talk about fellowship, discipleship, you know, like those, those types of things. But what, you know, we are made to need one another, like no Christian is an Island. And they're not, we're not meant to be able to minister to our own hearts, build up our own faith and our own strength. Like we have the Holy spirit. And of course he is a major factor, um, in, I mean, he is the major factor in testifying Christ to our hearts and the gospel and helping us to apply it and convicting us of, of sin and encouraging us in suffering. Um, but I was just saying yesterday on a different interview, uh, uh, I love the book life together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer talking about Christian community and the importance of it. And in that book, he says, um, and I'm paraphrasing, but he uses the term that we need one another to speak God's promises to us when we're in trials. Cause the Christ in the heart of my brother is sometimes stronger than the Christ in my own heart. And so we have, you know, the Holy spirit is, is moving and ministering and we need the other people in order to even carry out the one and others that God commands us to do. And so I think when we look at counseling and we put it into that biblical framework of this is discipleship, um, then, then it's not such a surprise to, to see that all of us are in need of discipleship in that, um, you know, from the world's perspective, maybe only the experts do counseling, right? Only the experts, the doctors, the ones who have been studying for the tens of years or whatever. Um, but that's not necessarily how the body of Christ works, right? God doesn't work through experts, although it's nice to have some training of course, but it's not a requirement. Um, the Holy spirit is the requirement for discipleship. And so if you are a believer, guess what? You have the Holy spirit and you have the word of God and you can grow in your ability to minister faithfully God's word to people who are hurting and in need of hope. So thank you for sharing that James. Cause I think that is a really important reflection to bring up. Yeah. One of the thoughts was running around my head for the past couple of months. And I'm like, well, this is another book idea of the many books that I think I'll never write. But, um, you know, RC Sproul wrote one, uh, years ago called everyone's a theologian. And I've always, I've had, I've been having this sort of meditating on this, this concept of everyone's a counselor. Everyone's a counselor. The issue is the question is, are you going to be a good one? Or are you going to be a bad one? Yeah. You know, because everybody's got somebody in their life that is going to ask them a question that they're going to, you know, have a point where they're going to either give them their opinion or their counselors, their advice or that kind of thing. So the question is, are you going to be one that's informed? Are you going to be one that's biblically astute? Are you going to be one that's, are you going to be helping that other person with the help that comes from God's word or, or not? And so I think that, yeah, a lot of times with my counselees after the first or second session, I say, listen, we can use the fancy term counseling if we want to, but really all this is, is discipleship. You know, this is, this is one believer trying to help another believer grow closer to Christ. And we're just talking about maybe a specific issue of where we're trying to grow closer to Christ in. I said, that's, that's really what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. It's good to make that kind of clear in the beginning. Christine, I'm going to, I'm going to rob something from you. Okay. So every time I like doing this with a guest, I like taking their little thing and using it on them. But in your podcast, you always get to the end and you say, speak to the audience, which we probably have been doing the whole time already. But, but if you could give one piece of, of hope, you know, as it, as it concludes, like maybe your desire, your one little thing that you can give to those about this issue, or maybe even they haven't been diagnosed. But some of the things that you've been saying that you've struggled with already, they've been identifying with saying, yes, yes, that's, that's where I'm at. That's where I'm at. Maybe I, maybe I have that or that kind of thing. What would, what would you say to them? Yeah, I think what I would want to say, of course, what I really want to say is all in the mini book, but just trying to pull a soundbite, I guess, is what you're asking me to do. So today's soundbite, I guess, could be, you know, that no matter what it is that you're going through, God wants to grow you through it. And he will, he will help you to go through it and he will help you to grow through it. And those two things, I think are key in getting a perspective of, of, of where our hope truly lies, right? Our hope is, has to be centered on Christ, who in Christ, we know all of God's promises to find their yes. So it's like, we, if we have Christ, well, then we have all the promises too. And so we put our hope and set our hope on that. Our expectation for good in the future is, has to be set upon Jesus Christ, um, instead of shifting it to treatment methods or medications or therapies. I mean, these things God can use. And for some people they may benefit and they may find help, but ultimately our hope can't be set on those things because they could also fail. Right. Um, but Jesus Christ will not ever fail. He has not ever failed. He's not going to all of a sudden start feeling now. And so just that reminder of, you know, that what you're going through is a form of suffering. A lot of people I've talked to also have not, that's not even entered their mind because they're so stuck on the sin. And look, I'm not saying there's not sin involved, but I am saying, when is there not sin involved? There's always every minute of the day, some form of disbelief or idol or something where we are, we've, we've turned away from God. We want to be our own, you know, King of our own castle, Queen of our own castle. So that's always a component, but first and foremost, God views you as a child, not as disordered, but as his beloved. And then he sees that you're suffering and that you are desperate for help. And that if you could choose any other thing, you probably wouldn't be choosing to go through something like this. He knows that he sees, um, and he comes close, right? The scriptures say that he draws near to the brokenhearted and he saves the crushed in spirit. And so, um, know that he's here, he's going to go through this with you, but then he also wants to use this to grow you and growth and progress are possible. Don't equate cure and healing to growth and progress, because again, trying to put it into a biblical framework of what God's goal is for this season of suffering that you're experiencing. And his goal is that you would mature in the Christ likeness and that you would bear fruit of the spirit and you'll have ups and you'll have downs, you'll have progress, you'll have setbacks, but ultimately Lord God, he is Lord over the process and also the progress. Right. Um, and so that can just recognizing that can, can, for me, I say in the book, it was like a burden was lifted off of my back. The onus for change, real, true, meaningful, lasting change was not on me. It never was. It never was. And just, um, I'm so thankful. I'm thankful for a God who is just so compassionate to help those who cannot help themselves, but who turned to him for help. Right. We got to have that, that spirit of humility to, um, in there. And so, um, I think I included a lot in that just now, but, um, hopefully that's helpful. That was great. That was great. Um, before we, before we sign off, I, you, I did want to let our listeners and I'm going to link this one too. And the show notes, you, you wrote another book, um, clean hearts, messy world. Is that, is that the title? Did I just mess the title up? That's okay. I love that. That's so good. That's so good. We just, we just, we just retitled the book. That is being released in 2021. I think it put that on your radar. No, um, the, that wasn't my first book, uh, clean home, messy heart promises of renewal, hope, and change for overwhelmed moms. Yes. And we won't, we won't be editing that out. Will we James? No, no, we don't. Please keep it in there. I think that's great. Yeah, no, I think. So what was it? Well, to give a little bit of, uh, what was that book about? And sort of, you know, just to let our people have to, they're, they're, they're going to listen to you and they're going to like, I want everything this lady is doing. So, so, so, so, so just give us a rundown of what, uh, what, you know, what that book is. Yeah. So, well, that book I wrote, um, with two toddlers. And so that's a miracle in and of itself. Um, but really that book came out of it really that season, like I had mentioned about, you know, the postpartum depression and, and God really even using that time with two babies under the age of two, um, really two babies under the age of 15 months. To be honest, they were back-to-back babies and was, it was a challenge. Um, but in any case, he used that particular season in my motherhood really to expose a lot of, um, a lot in my own heart. And so that book is a Bible study. I, I share at the beginning of each chapter, a, um, you know, a small story from my own, you know, exchanges with my children. Um, cause like God so often does uses our children to reveal things about our own heart and our relationship with him as our father. And so, um, you know, we share a story and then we go into what does the word say about, you know, this particular issue I was having at that moment. You know, one chapter might be about my daughter, you know, my husband was in the hospital. I asked my daughter at the time to help me clean the house and she was giving me kinds of attitude and all this. But then I realized, well, look, I'm that same way too. You know, I give attitude when people interrupt what it is I'm trying to do. Cause I want to, you know, I don't want to lay down what I'm doing to help other people. And, um, and then I get bitter and angry. And so then we go into the scriptures and, you know, kind of examine that a bit. And so I wrote that before I even had any biblical counseling training. And when it came out and one of my mentors read it, she said, Christine, I said, yeah, she's like, do you know what you did? And I, I got scared. I thought I was about to just get a holy smack down. I'm like, oh no, I had people read this manuscript before I released it. I thought we caught all the, you know, the big, the big problems. And she's like, you wrote a biblical counseling book. And at the time I didn't, I, I was like, um, okay, that sounds good. That sounds like a good thing to have done. Um, but I didn't really know that's what I was doing. Um, you know, when I, when I had written it, I think I had gotten the counseling after I wrote it because it published, you know, some months later, but the actual writing of it was pretty, was before I even had been diagnosed at that time with the postpartum depression. And so, yeah, it's just interesting how the biblical counseling like weaves itself in and out of my own story. Um, but that's what that book is for. It's for moms. Um, and I have had moms of all ages read it and benefit from it because it's not just about babies, you know, and it's not even really about how to be a better mom. Right. It's about what is God teaching me in these stressful moments of motherhood and how can I, um, you know, work in tandem with the Holy Spirit to mature as a believer and do the work of, you know, um, working out my salvation with fear and trembling, I guess you could say. Um, and, you know, pressing on toward the rest that Christ offers the hope, um, that he gives us and then the power to make change, um, in our hearts as well. So that's that book. Awesome. We'll have that linked in the show notes under the correct title. And, uh, and so, uh, Christine, thank you so much for making the time to come on, uh, us. You had no idea who we were before we reached out to you, but, uh, I really appreciate it. And we're excited and, um, everybody that's listening, make sure that you go out, uh, uh, Amazon, this, uh, the help I've been diagnosed with a mental disorder is going to be is on Amazon right now. And, uh, you can click the link in the show notes to, uh, get it, but, uh, get it. And, and like she, she gave a plug earlier. It's part of the lifeline, uh, mini book set. And, uh, there are just browse that whole set. Cause there's tons of those. And we're actually working on getting a couple of other authors from that series, uh, with us. And, um, and so, uh, we thank everybody. Thank you again, Christine. James, you have any closing comments? I don't think I can add much more to what Christine said today. Okay. All right. Well, thank you again. And, uh, James, um, until next time to God, not the pastor be the glory. Thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFP network.org. To find more podcasts like this one resources and meetups to encourage you on your journey. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

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