50. RFP Meetup Interviews

Welcome back to the For Freedom podcast. This is your host James Saifert along with John Hollifield and we're excited about this episode this week. Man, it is an awesome time when you get to sit down with your family and just begin to share stories. I know you do this at Christmas and holidays and events that are going on in your life and you get to see people that maybe you haven't seen in a year and you get to just share different things that are going on in your life. Well, that's what we did this a couple weeks ago. We were at the RFP family meetup and we sat down with three individuals and we got to share. They got to share their stories with us. And now this isn't these are the only ones that were recorded. We definitely shared other stories with other people that one either didn't have the time to sit down with us because it was a lot going on in that meetup or they just couldn't for sake of safety reasons, share their story. And so these are some three interviews. John, before we get started, what was your thoughts as we got to sit down with these three individuals, a boy or a man and then two women? And man, there's some heavy stuff that's going to be here in today, but it was some good stuff. John, what was your thoughts? Yeah, this was this was one of the greatest aspects of the meetup. And, you know, I'm reminded I always think about this. Think about what JC has said from the get go, the power of a story. And I think people a lot of times don't realize, you know, how they're helped from from just hearing someone else's experience. And the either the encouragement, the validation, the the the identification, you know, they they resonate with them. And and and so, you know, like James said, I mean, I just want to say we don't we won't mention last names, but, you know, I really enjoyed meeting like James and April. You know, right when we got there, got to meet James and April and then and then we met Aaron, which we're going to hear from here in just a second. We got to meet Adam and Adam had some some great input back for us that we're mulling over. Adam, you're a creative guy, man. And then at lunch, I got to sit down with with Tim and Rebecca, who said that, you know, their journey out and they started finding the podcast. And they said it became a routine for them that the evenings, James, they would take their kids after supper, strap them in the car and just drive while they both listen to different podcasts within the network and the RFP. And would just like they said that was their time of healing, like they would pick up one that they knew that the other spouse needed. You know, this this resonated with them. And it was just like amazing to hear that. That's what all of this was meaning to people. You know, we got to we got to I got to meet Ben and Rachel, Ben and his sister, Rachel. I mean, that guy's awesome. We got to I got to briefly talk to Brett Martin, the tick tock. Oh, man. So good. So good. Oh, yeah. I got to spend about 10, 15, 20 minutes with with Brett. And me and him have a lot of overlapping of people that we know. The guy that I don't know if he said led him to the Lord or was a huge influence in his life was also the guy that I helped as a bus captain in Arkansas. And then there was some guys that he knew that went to our college. And so it was cool just to be able to connect in that way and talk to Brent. Josh did a great job. Stand up. Nacho Libre. Yes. I got to spend about three, two hours with him after the last session. We came back and it was good to see our friend Jake there. Got to spend some time with him and Adri. And man, it was just a blast to be able to finally put some faces with names. Daniel was there. Daniel Wynn. Daniel and Ashley. Yes. Daniel's one of the moderators on the family page. So they were a great couple to just just meet. And I really hate that we didn't get to talk to everybody. Oh, Craig and Amber. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Are they not awesome? They were great. They were great. Hey, and one big shout out. I don't know if it gets mentioned enough, but Josh Chapman, who did. It was a Chapman. Champion. Champion. I don't know. Josh, Josh, whatever your how you pronounce your last name. You are the man. Loot Media. Wasn't it Loot Media? Yes. Yes. And he did, man, just a knockout job of of putting the videos together. Dude, he had to be exhausted. He was working like a madman the whole time. The whole time he was there and micing us up and making sure we sounded good. And I want to give a huge shout out. I got to hang out with him for a couple hours after the last episode as well. And he made it just so down to earth. Yeah. And just really able to be personable and just hang out with us. And I appreciated that. I did get to spend a couple hours with Brian, JC and Nathan. And that was that was a really cool time afterwards as well. Just to be able to see their dynamic. You know, me and John, we have our dynamic. But to be able to see their dynamic was pretty cool. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Yeah. As you can see, two weeks later, we're still still enthralled by this. And so we can't wait to the next one. So whenever the guys get something on the plan, you can expect to see us. Uh, maybe, maybe not at everyone. I think that they have plans to really ramp it up, but, uh, expect to see us there again, because we just loved it. And, um, so we're excited about today. We're going to have some stories for you today that we recorded at the meetup. James was very, uh, key in getting that together. So I thank you, James, for that. But, uh, we hope that, uh, these stories are an encouragement for you. So here they are. I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James. You don't have a Bible. But, you know, there's something about that. I love when you're just independent from the middle. So when you separate the King James Bible, we can, you know, my damn, basically, don't have a free tribulation to the middle of the Baptist church. I still believe there'd be a cold day in hell before I get my talents from a woman. I'm a preacher. The young preachers that do love God get pulled off in the Calvinist. And I'll fight it. I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over it. I'll get personal with you. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP Network. That seeks to bring freedom in Christ. From the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saverett. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. All right. We are actually live today at the RFP meetup in Bourbon, Missouri. And it's been a fun time so far today. We've had a lot going on. And we're spending some time today also doing some interviews with some of the fam or family that are here. And so today we are excited to hear from Brian Rice. And, Brian, where are you from? I'm from Independence, Missouri. It's an outskirt of or a suburb of Kansas City, Missouri. Okay. So he's got a Missouri native here that traveled a little bit of ways to come be with the RFP family. And so we're going to hear from Brian. He's going to tell us a little bit about his story sort of in the movement and what he's gone through and coming out. So, Brian, I'm going to turn it over to you, man. All right. All right. So pretty much I was born and raised in the IFB movement. I call myself a Baptist choir boy because I've been as the IFB is all I've ever known. I've been technically some of the I was saved in a Southern Baptist church, but I don't really I never knew it was a Southern Baptist church until later on in life and whatnot. I was called to preach when I was 14 in an IFB in a fairly prominent IFB church down in Georgia. My pastor was the president of a Baptist mission board down there. I graduated from Bible college and soon after I was looking just for somewhere to serve in the ministry. And looking back, I realized I've had some spiritual manipulation and abuse from some of the people, some of the men of God in the ministry in my life. It even started back in college. There was one guy, one of the staff in our church who he's one of the kind of guys who takes an hour and a half to preach 20 minutes worth of content. And everybody knew it about him. Everybody mocked him about it, but he never changed. He, you know, he's a man of God, bless God. And I'd seen somebody on Twitter. I'd see I forget exactly exactly who it is or I don't need to call them out. But some preacher made a comment on Twitter about, I would rather hear three 20-minute sermons than one hour-long sermon. So I retweeted it at this guy in our church and I said, hey, could you learn from this? And that got me in a lot of trouble. Like my pastor was even considering talking to me about it. And I learned this by, he was one of my college professors, and he gave a pop quiz that a lot of people failed. And there was just a lot of people in the room were pouting. And he just started chewing everybody out for, because he didn't like the bad attitudes. He sucked it up and served God, bless God. And he was chewing everybody out. And he looked at me and said, you need to learn to respect authority and not be rebellious. And I was just like, where did that come from? Well, and then he pulled me aside later and explained what it was. And I'm thinking, couldn't that be something that was dealt in private and not called out like that? And that was one of many examples of that guy just using the bully pulpit. And so that was early on in my college days. And then, so I graduated college in 2016, and I was looking for somewhere to serve. And there was just no room for me to serve in my church. And the pastor of that church was honestly a micromanager. I wouldn't have worked for him if he had offered to. So I found a church up in the Kansas City area of Missouri. And the pastor was just needing an unpaid assistant role, or unpaid assistant pastor in his church for some help. Because he was trying to pastor a church, but he wasn't even paid any salary at all to pastor the church. And he was needing some help. So I was like, okay, I'll go do that. I'm amazed my wife agreed to marry me. Because I proposed to her October of 2016. January of 2017, I moved from Georgia to Missouri, leaving her there. And then in June, I went down, married her, and moved her 800 miles away from everything she's ever known and loved. So that's kind of mistreated my wife in that way. But she's still with me somehow. And anyways, that's kind of where the kind of spiritual manipulation and stuff begins. Because the pastor I served under, he was a walking definition of the English language. There's an exception to every rule of his. Every standard, there's an exception. And this, there's an exception. Except somehow I never fit under any of those exceptions at all. I never understood it. And he's a very lawyer type. He could argue his way around anything. And he just wouldn't allow you to be right. There was even a conversation I had with him about music, which we both knew we disagreed on standards-wise. And he told me, you can't tell me that it's okay for a Christian to listen to rock music. I just thought, you're right, because you told me I can't. Whether or not I'm right or wrong, you told me I cannot agree with you. So that was kind of the leadership I was under. And walking through it, it's like, I know God wants me to pastor. I don't see it in myself. I don't see the skills and everything in myself. But I know it's what God wants me to do. And so that's where I know I will be in my life. It's just I've been trying to receive training and help and guidance on how to do that. So that when God has me in that role, I'll be better prepared to do it. And I won't be a novice. So at one point, I had never gotten a glowing review. I had never gotten a good review from that pastor. Like, I was never good enough. I didn't, I, he was a, he was a bit of a workaholic. Like he, at one point he was working a full-time and two part-time jobs and, and pastoring a church and working towards his master's degree from an online seminary. And so, and growing a family, he had, now he has four kids. He had started off with two when we had gotten there. And he had just had one kid before we had gotten up there. And so he was, had a growing family and all that stuff. And I'm just, and he did not understand that I actually like to spend time with my wife and we have a new marriage. And even when, during the six months that I was up here and she was down there, he did, he thought it was strange how I would spend two hours a night talking to her. And I would be like texting her every chance I could. He thought, he thought that was strange. And even to my face, he called her clingy because of that. And I was, because, because apparently ministry wives are supposed to, are, are supposed to be okay with their husbands neglecting them for the ministry. Um, cause that's in the Bible. And, uh, so that's just one example. That's one of many examples. And he flat out, um, and I, I tried to, I tried to do my best and everything. And I struggled because, um, some, an area of proficiency was music. Well, cause I, my parents have been in choirs ever since I've been alive. My dad was even professionally trained, vocally great singer. Um, so I was just born and raised in music. I've played a guitar since I was 15 and, um, in a church orchestra. And even now at the church I'm at, I'm, I just joined up with the music team, praise team, whatever you want to call it, playing my 12 string guitar. And, uh, he would just keep me as far out of it as possible. And he would control it all himself. And, um, I never really understood why, but he had me serving. He had me, um, running the bus ministry that there was a, another guy in the church. I shouldn't say running the bus ministry. I was visiting for the bus ministry. There's an actual, there's another children's pastor for a long time. And he drove the bus, um, until that guy left in 20, uh, in the middle of COVID lockdown. He, that guy left the church in 20, in the lockdown of 2019, uh, 2020. And then I had to take over children's church and I am not a children's person. I do not like children at all. Um, and so that was a, so that was a struggle with me, especially since he had free range children who, he trained them that the only, the only time you listen to a door was when you yell at them. And I do not like that. I do not like dealing with children like that at all. If I have to raise my voice, like something in my mind, something bad has had to happen for me to raise my voice. And, but that was the only way they would listen. And, um, I'm not going to share my full thoughts on how to deal with children because, uh, Mike gets the CPA on me or something. Because some people don't have a sense of humor, but everything, everything, everything I tried to do there, like my bachelor's degree was in youth ministry. Well, if there was a, if he would try to start a youth group or anything, he would be the one running it. And I would, I would run a Sunday school with, with, uh, five, uh, the, what was it? The fourth to sixth graders, the kids. I would always be working with the kids and like my wife would always be stuck in the nursery. And she does not, she does not like children and she likes children as much as I do. And much less like children that are fresh, that are fresh out of the room that look like creepy balls of skin. Like she just, she does not like them, but like she would be, she would be stuffed in the nursery at every chance possible. And she just, she was really struggling with it a lot as well. But you know, in the ministry, you're supposed to be, you're supposed to be willing servants and do whatever is asked of you, regardless of whether or not it's in your strength. And, um, yeah, at one point the pastor had told me, the pastor, uh, he, he, he did have some good things to say about me. The fact that I did move 800 miles away from everything to serve in a church and not get paid for it and various other things. But at one point, at one point, at one review he gave me, he said, he said, uh, he basically said, I would not hire Brian if I had the, if I had the choice to. And, and, and, and, um, at another point he, he flat out told me, you're probably, you'll probably just be an associate pastor. Not all people are meant to be pastors. When I clearly told him, like, I know this is what God wants me to do. And so it was thing after thing after thing of just like, I felt restricted and controlled. And, um, even with what my wife wears at all, not unless, not just the church, what she, she wears at all. There was even one, uh, one point where he had a conversation with me where he basically told me, like, my wife should not wear leggings at all at home or at home. She might be okay, but like in public at all, she, cause like she, you know, you represent the church everywhere you go. Therefore you should follow our standards everywhere you go, our standards everywhere you go, whether or not you can find them in the Bible. And, um, I, I had allowed myself to be manipulated into telling her that like you, we should, you should only wear, cause somehow jeans are more modest than leggings are. And, and, uh, I've been manipulated into having that conversation with her and she rightfully didn't react well to it because I was responding to a spiritual manipulation and not being allowed to make my own decisions for my own family. And recently the pastor had moved to be an associate in a, uh, in a church in a different state. And I, I had to leave the church as well cause God was not, uh, moving for me to stay in that church either. But now I'm at a church where the pastor is what a pastor actually should be. And every, but every member on staff is what a, what a man of God, what a true man of God should be. Not in the Baptist MOG, but like what a man of God should be as stated by the Bible. Former. So I've got a question, Brian. Uh, what college, I don't know if you said this or not, but what college did you go to? It was Atlanta Baptist college. It's a small night college out in a suburb of Atlanta. It's designed really only to, it was designed for pastors or people serving in the ministry to either get a degree or get a higher degree. It was not meant for a kid out of college who had nothing better to do for his life than college. Okay. My other question I had for you, and John, if you've got any other questions after this, did the pastor that you were interning under, uh, was there ever any discipleship or any type of hands-on training? I know you said he gave you some unfavorable reviews, but was there anything that was like, Hey, let's, let's go through a book together. Let's try to have some training together, uh, to help you become a better pastor. Did he take you out on visits and train you in any way possible? He, not really. And that would be where my, uh, some complaints would start with him. He did, to be, to be fair, I can't just completely bash this guy. He did have a heart to want to train men younger than he was to serve in the ministry. He did, that was his desire, but the results were, the results were a little different. No, he did not walk me through a book or sit down with me at certain times. Like, this is what the ministry looks like. It was more so, you went to college, you should know how to do this. And, and just, uh, you should be able to, you should be able to handle this. So no, there wasn't really any, um, take you under my wing and let me show you how it was done. It's just, you should already know how to do this. Go do it. I have a question, Brian. Like, how did, so, so how, how did you end up here? Like, how did you find out about the Recovering Fundamentalist, uh, podcast, the group, and, and find yourself here in, in Bourbon today at the RFP meetup? Yeah, that, I'm a preacher, so everything is a long story for me. Uh, it really started back in college. The greatest thing that I learned in college was when my older brother went to that same college, he shouldn't have, and he'll tell you that. Um, he asked me, like, have you ever read through Romans 14? Like, just sat through and seriously read it? And I'm like, honestly, that was a blank, that chapter was a blank space in my mind. And Baptists wish that wasn't there. That's why they don't preach on it. And, uh, or at least the IFB, I should say. And I said, no. So I sat down and read through it, and I, and it was just eye-opening, because, I'm like, don't, because, just, it really shows me that, it shows me that if it's not specifically stated in the Bible, it's up to the individual believer. Or, like, you know, kind of like the individual priesthood of the believer that we all act like we believe in. If it's not stated in the Bible, it's between that Christian and the Holy Ghost on whether or not it's actually right for them to do. And, um, that really started changing my mind on, like, maybe it's okay for women to wear something other than skirts. Or, you know, various other things, like, maybe not all music is of the, uh, that, maybe not all music that isn't Southern, Southern gospel is of the devil. Various different things like that, my mind started shifting on. So that started way back in 2014. Let's just put a round date on it. And, um, my mind has been gradually moving that way. And the church that I joined, that I served under here is less hardcore IFB in some ways. Um, but he still had some, again, walking definition of the English language. He, he was, but he wasn't hardcore IFB. And, um, so my, and my wife didn't grow up in, we grew up completely differently. She did not grow up in church at all. She started to come into church at 15, got saved really without telling anybody about it. And, um, so she's more of a newer Christian. And since she wasn't raised in the IFB like I was, um, like she wasn't raised, she, she wasn't raised on VeggieTales like I was. She was raised on The Conjuring. And so, like, so she was a little different. And so, uh, she's, she started reading the Bible and everything for herself. And she started asking questions, like, is this actually wrong? Like, why, why are we against this? Why? And, and I, a lot of questions she had, I would just go, there's no Bible against it. We just don't do it. And, um, so, and then we started more and more as I was beginning to allow myself to think for myself. Um, we started shifting away from a lot of that hardcore IFB stuff. And we were part of the Facebook page that was the Baptist debate group. It was really an echo chamber. People really didn't want an actual discussion. Especially those people who think they know more than they do and use loftier language to try to prove that, uh, like in the Bible, like Nehemiah's shows that only, pulpits should only be made out of wood because that's what Nehemiah had and not using common sense to realize that the only two materials they had to make a pulpit was, uh, rock and wood. Then, like, Nehemiah was trying to build a wall, right? What makes you think he wanted a stone pulpit? And if he had a stone pulpit, would we be preaching from stone pulpits for this day? Come on, people. But, um, JC Groves would start posting, uh, started posting on that page about, hey, we're starting this podcast. And my wife showed it to me. I'm like, yeah, we should give it a shot. We listened to their introduction, um, episode on the way, on a road trip to Virginia's for my, for a Christmas trip up there. I have a lot of family in Virginia and Georgia. So on the way to Virginia, we listened to that and to that introduction podcast. And my wife and I just talked to them, like, this, they're saying everything we've been thinking about. And so just, we have just inhaled everything they have get, they have put out, like all their podcasts and everything. Because, like, they, again, they're saying the quiet parts that we've been hiding, they've been saying it out loud. And so that's, that's really how we've been here and how we've been on this route. And why we've just loved the, love this, this crew, because everybody in the RFP, like, whether or not you agree with some of the standards, Bible translation, whatnot, like, they know their stuff. They know their doctrines. They believe the fundamentals of the faith. And so that's how we've ended up here, because we just started off, if it's not in the Bible, then it's, then it's an opinion, not a doctrine. All right, we're still here at the RFP meetup in Bourbon, Missouri, and having a wonderful time, hearing a bunch of stories. And we're going to continue on with the story today. And so we're excited to have Erin Brindisi here with us, and a native, another native of Missouri. And so we're going to turn the mic over to Erin and let her sort of tell her story and experience for the IFB. So, Erin, tell us a little bit about sort of your, the sort of your first experiences with an IFB culture. What was it like? What kind of culture was it? Of course, we know we've talked even times about how there's, there are subcultures within the IFB. So let's begin with sort of talking about, like, what were your first experiences with that? So my family started going to an IFB church when I was 10. And my parents were raised Catholic. So we were invited to church through someone that my dad worked with in the car business. And that was a different, it was a good experience because my mom, you know, dad knew that the Catholic church was not, you know, the answer. So they had been searching. So I was 10 and I was saved and baptized in the church. And then our family joined the church and, you know, got involved in ministry. Mom, dad, you know, sang in choir. Mom taught in Awanas. And, you know, we were involved in the, I was involved in the youth group. And we went to the Christian school. The church had a Christian school. I should say that I'm originally from Salt Lake City, Utah. So that church, you know, the culture is different. Just being out west, the culture is different. But I went to the Christian school. And then, of course, when it came time to go to college, everyone, you know, you just went to Bible college because that was the thing. And how it worked in my church was that you only had a certain many colleges to pick from. But you wanted to make sure you chose the college that the pastor approved. So I'm not sure how my pastor got connected with Fairhaven because he was older. And to my knowledge, he, I don't think he was connected to Hiles. So I'm kind of not sure. I don't think we really had camps. Like, we didn't really have a group that we really fit in with. Because he was pretty old school. But somehow we got connected with Fairhaven. And so that was the one that was his choice. So we all, almost everyone in my youth group went to Fairhaven. There was only a couple kids that went to a different college. And they were kind of looked, they were kind of looked as, like, less than because they didn't go to a college. A pastor, you know, approved. And so that was kind of like, okay, you know, you just follow the pastor because he's the man of God. And he knows, you know, so you just trust him. And you go on in blind faith, you know, to this Bible college. And that was a different experience. Because I, in my church, we were IFB, but it was kind of light because we didn't wear culottes. We were allowed to wear, like, walking shorts. As long as they came down to your knee, that was okay. So when I got to Fairhaven, you wore culottes. And I was like, what are culottes? I had never heard of them. I thought they were the strangest thing. They are the strangest thing. That was new for me. And it was like, okay, but, you know, whatever. You go along with it because it was the rules. And, you know, you follow the rules. And you do what they tell you because they're supposed to know. And they're helping you, you know, in your journey through life and blah, blah, blah. But that was very strange. And so, yeah, so then I met my, well, my ex-husband. It's my ex-husband now. I met him at college. And so that was, yeah, a whole other journey. But I learned a lot about, you know, just the culture and more of kind of the Hiles and Fairhaven, you know, split. Because they used to be very connected. And then they broke away. So I learned a lot since he grew up there. He was a Fairhaven kid. So I learned a lot. I think more so about the church than I would have if I kind of wasn't in that little circle. But, yeah. So then after college is how I came to Missouri. So my husband at the time took a church to help with the youth group. So he's a youth pastor. So that was how I got to Missouri and have been here ever since in Missouri. So tell us about sort of the catalyst and things that led you to sort of come to the point where, okay, this is not, you started seeing holes were being poked. Things were not quite right. This is not Christianity. It's about those types of things. When did that start to begin, Heather? That happened, it was several years ago, maybe five years ago. So a dear friend helped me, reached out. And she was kind of on the outside looking in. She wouldn't raise IFB, but she had not been to the church I was currently attending. So she kind of was a fresh, you know, pair of eyes coming in. And she noticed a lot of stuff. And we had some conversations. And she was able to say, yeah, it's okay that you leave, you know. And she was helping me to be able to kind of have that confidence to put all of it together and just recognize that there was so much hypocrisy, you know, and the performance-based and all of these things. And then I was able to kind of look back on the church that my husband and I were in, in the youth kind of ministry. And that church was a, like, was kind of a mini Fairhaven church. So I was able to kind of put it all together and see, oh, this is not right. This is really manipulative. There was a lot of control. And it was very unhealthy. And so that was a good place for me to be able to meet her and to be able to see that to make a step outward. So. So I've got a question. When, how did you get introduced to the RFP, the network, the family? How did, was there a person that told you, was there a specific podcast that introduced you to it? And then sort of how has that helped you be in that community? Through Facebook. A friend on Facebook had mentioned it to me. Hey, there's this great podcast. You know, you should give it, you know, go and try it out. And so when she did and I listened to it, it was very refreshing. And their humor, you know, and all of that made it very easy to listen to. And it just, it felt, I don't know. You didn't feel like what you were getting was judgmental or anything. And there was so much substance. That was what, for me, I was like, wow, this actually is Bible. You know, this is scripture. It's not being cherry-picked or twisted. Or, you know, they were putting it out there and there was so much truth. And that helped me kind of go back and just see all the things that I have learned through college and growing up that was just so wrong. And, you know, all the things that we were told and all the rules that were not in scripture. So that was very helpful for me to put all of those pieces together. Awesome. All right. We're here live in Bourbon with Esther, Esther Vineyard, which would be Jim Vineyard's granddaughter. And she's going to share a little bit of her testimony, her story of growing up there in Oklahoma and being a part of the church and being a part of that lifestyle in the IFB. And so, Esther, here you go. Hello. So I was actually born on the mission field because my dad, Tom Vineyard, was a missionary to Ivory Coast, West Africa at the time. And we moved back to the States when I was five, I believe. So my grandfather, as many people know, he was the pastor of Windsor Hills Baptist Church in Oklahoma City. And his roots are kind of from that Jack Kyle's vein of IFB because he worked for Jack Kyle's in the bus ministry. So anyway, he kind of implemented a lot of those beliefs and standards and, you know, mannerisms into his ministry there in OKC. So my dad took over the church after my grandfather. And, yeah, I've been a PK all my life. And I was a PK there in OKC as well. I was very, very involved in the church. I was helping in junior church ever since. I can't even remember. It might have been as early as, like, sixth grade. Helping on bus route. Helping to plan BBS. Playing piano in church. I'm an instrumentalist, so I played many things for the church. Just very, very involved. And I was happy to do it. I had that people pleaser mentality, you know, and very, like, it wasn't forced on me. I just kind of jumped into it, you know, because I wanted to, that desire to measure up. I wanted to measure up, you know. And I was Jim Vineyard's granddaughter and I was Tom Vineyard's kid, you know. So it was expected of me. But at the time, you know, I was doing it very willingly. And it wasn't a bad childhood, you know. I learned a lot about scripture, you know. I, you know, memorized all the Bible verses alongside everybody else. And there was a lot of head knowledge there. But I think there was a lot about the character of who God is that was left out. And that became very evident later on in life. So I'm going to hop over into, I guess, another part. Sorry, I'm not very eloquent. So anyway, one need that I saw that was there was that we needed a music teacher in our private school. I grew up K through 12 in that private school there. And we had a music teacher, but she left. And music was just kind of my thing. So I was like, I really want to be, like, the elementary music teacher, the band teacher. I want to do it all. Like, I want to teach everything music. But the Bible college at the time, we didn't have the resources we needed in order for me to go through the program there. All of my siblings went to OBC, the Bible college that was there. And so I just kind of felt this tug. Like, I heard about this private university nearby, SNU, that had a good music program. And I'm like, well, I am IFB to the core. And I was dead dog determined to go to this university, get the training I needed in music, and then come back to the private school and teach for them there. And so that was the plan. So my dad let me go to SNU and get this training. And, you know, I would go to, like, the worship services, you know, contemporary. They had drums and everything. And I just hated it. And, you know, because that's not at all, like, IFB. And I went with my big black, my grandpa's big black Bible. I held it close to my chest the whole time. Did you have Jack Powell's signature in it? Actually, that one I don't think did. He had many Bibles. That one didn't have Jack Powell's signature in it. But I just held it to my chest. And I'm like, I'm going to stay IFB. I'm going to stay IFB. Like, that's all I cared about. And it took a long time, but I started building relationships with people around me at this Nazarene University. And I realized, wow, these people are Christians that, like, love God. And they have a relationship with God that, like, I haven't necessarily seen before. And we have different opinions. But, like, they're okay with that. And, you know, I, you know, there were times that I wasn't. I wasn't. Like, I would, you know, run to a practice room in the music building and just, like, be upset over the smallest issues, smallest differences with people. And they could have different opinions and be like, it's okay. Like, we serve the same God. And we have different opinions about, you know, these tertiary issues. Like, I wear pants. You wear skirts. That's okay. And that was just kind of a shock to my system. And gradually I started to see that, like, these things weren't in scripture. Like, wearing skirts two inches below your knee or, like, that is not the epitome of what modesty is in scripture. And, like, the KJV issue, it took me a long, long, long time to get out of that mentality. But just different things were brought to my attention. And I'm like, I don't necessarily hold these same standards. They were no longer doctrine to me. They were just standards. They were opinions. So I tried to share that with my parents. And I vividly remember, like, I was trying to do everything the right way, which there is no right way to leave IFB. I discovered that now. But I tried to do it politely. And I tried to make it clear, like, this is what God is leading me to do. You know, I tried to make it clear that this was something that was coming from God. It was not coming from a place of rebellion. But whenever I shared these things with my parents, like, my dad was saying, no, this cannot be from God because I do not approve of it. And he tried to say, because you did not come to me before. This is the first time I'm hearing about it. Because you did not come to me before and get approval. This can't be God's will. And I vividly remember my mom saying, Esther, you have a legacy to live up to. You can't leave. And that just made the pressure so much worse. And it was so hard. And literally for about 10 months after that conversation, I almost didn't leave just because of the pressure of that statement alone. Just because, you know, I love my grandfather. I know there are several things that he said that were not true. But I still loved him. You know, he was my grandfather. And so doing anything to bring shame to my family and to, you know, my grandparents and all of that, that was hard for me as a people pleaser. That was so, so hard. But I finally came to the conclusion that, like, if this was coming from God, it was either disobeying him for the sake of pleasing my parents or obeying God and basically disappointing my parents and not knowing what was going to happen. So I came to the conclusion I would much rather, you know, obey God. And so last January, I told my parents, I'm going to live on campus. I'm going to be independent so that I could live by my convictions and so that I could go to a different church. And I never said I was cutting them off. I actually wholeheartedly believed, you know, I would be back for family meals and stuff. And I knew they would be upset and I knew it would be awkward. But I wholeheartedly believed I would be welcome back. But after I said that, my dad, like, the conversation that night was not at all enjoyable, as you can imagine. But my dad was like, I can't believe you're choosing to cut off your family. And I told him, I'm not cutting you guys off. That's not at all what's happening here. I'm just telling you that I'm, you know, claiming my independence. I'm claiming my relationship with God. And he's like, no, you didn't come to me with permission for this. And I told him, you're not my mediator. Scripture says there is no mediator between me and God. It was like, yeah, there's a direct line from you to God. And I'm like, there is. You know, that's what Scripture says. That's why Jesus died. But anyway, back on track. But I left that night intending strictly to, like, gain that spiritual freedom. And in doing so, like, there was a big price to pay. And I have not, essentially, I haven't seen my family since January. My dad reaches out frequently to remind me of his disappointment. Esther, tell me a little bit about, like, how did you, okay, so January is sort of when this sort of moment happened. And what's the last eight months been? And how did you end up here at this meetup? So the last eight months have consisted of a lot of healing. And just trying to figure out things about God that I never knew before or that maybe I had heard but, like, I hadn't ever experienced. So I've experienced God's unconditional love in ways that I could have never imagined. And I feel like also psychologically I've just gone through a lot. And, you know, even going to counseling, I know a lot of people, like, in IFB, they don't like counseling. But going to counseling has helped me through a lot psychologically and being able to stop being so hard on myself as well. Because I feel like just in IFB, like, holding yourself up to, like, these standards that cannot be met. Like, no one's perfect. You can't be perfect. It's impossible. So anyway, I'm stumbling over my words. One question that I have for you, Esther, is how did you, because you went to a Nazarene college, how did you go from there to find it about the RFP community? And if there was a podcast that got you started, which one was it? Just sort of talk about that for a minute. So I found out about the RFP. Actually, it had to be through God, honestly. Because I worked late nights as a janitor. And so I would just clean and just have, like, several hours where it was just me cleaning. And that can be very boring. So I listened to podcasts and audiobooks. So just one night, on a whim, I pulled up my iPhone. And I'm like, I wonder if there's a podcast about, like, the independent fundamental Baptist movement. So I just searched it. And at this point, I was still in IFB. And the RFP popped up. Like, it was, you know, JC, Nathan, and Brian's podcast. And I was like, hmm. Like, I was thinking, hmm, this sounds like maybe these guys might be some liberals. And I don't know about this one. Just at the surface, I'm like recovering fundamentalists. It sounds kind of oofy. But I was like, I'm just going to give it a listen. And we'll see. So I started listening to it. And the content was amazing. And they were hilarious, too. They just made it so enjoyable to listen to. And, like, just being able to have people that made me realize, like, you're not crazy. Like, you're not the only one that's having these thoughts. And you're not the only rebel or black sheep in the family out there. I was like, hey, like, these are my people. This is my community. So that's how I found out about them. So I just wanted to encourage, I guess, young people that are still within the movement. I'm only 21 years of age. And for me, as a young woman in particular, to come out and say, like, this is my personal relationship with God. And I'm going to claim my spiritual freedom. Like, that was a hard thing to do. But God helped me through it. And I felt very alone at the time. But I guess I just wanted to say for those people that maybe are second-guessing some of the things that they're being taught. But for these young people, like, there is a way out. And God will help you with that. And if you reach out to these people in this RFP community, you will find community and you will find help. So I encourage you to take that step of faith, even though it may be one of the scariest decisions of your life. Wow, man. Some powerful stories there. And, you know, I just love hearing testimonies, but I also love hearing stories from the family. I think the interesting thing there is you see, you know, and I told this to our church when I got back. I said, you know, there's a lot of people that may have left legalistic fundamentalism, but they didn't leave Jesus. Yeah. They didn't leave the faith. And so here you have people sort of running to a faith that was real, not put on by our performance. And so what an encouraging time of just listening. And we hope and pray that some of these stories were encouragement to you. James, you got any questions? Like I said, I've listened to those interviews now a couple of times. And it was a blessing one, but it was an eye opening to that. And I shared this on a live episode. It wasn't a live episode. I think it was our Q&A that we did there with RFP guys. And that when we come through something like this, we feel like we're on an island. We feel like we're by ourselves. We feel like no one's around us. But these interviews and these stories help us to realize that we're not on an island. We're not by ourselves. People are struggling with these same things and we can find comfort. We can find help if we just reach out to others. And that's why it's so great about our RFP fan page and these podcasts, us, the church split, mainly Brian, not necessarily Will, but I'm just joking. I love you guys. The PK podcast, the RFP, the RFWP. It was great to spend time with Emily and Lois as well as we were there. And they did a knockout job with their stuff. And so am I missing any other? Oh, and Brian and Sam. Man. Yeah. Dave. Dave. Brian and Sam. Dave and Sam. My bad. He's got Brian on the heart. That's right. And so, but they have a story. And they are there to help. They're here to reach out to us. John, while we were there, man, even in these last several weeks, we've had people that have reached out. I know for me, have reached out to me and have wanted to just hang out and talk. And, man, that's what we're here for. I know we're busy. I know we're pastors and we've got a church. But we're not too busy to sit down and hang out and talk. And so that was the great part of this. I've been able to get away for a couple of days. I wish it was like a day longer, really. Looking back, we could have done a whole lot more with talking to people and getting to hear more people's stories. I know. We didn't even get to check out the pool. I know. The pool was mixed bathing. We didn't get to do it, as JC called it. But, yeah, it was great. I loved it. And I hope these stories are going to be an encouragement to you as they were to us. Absolutely. And, guys, we thank you for listening. Give us a like, share, or a review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember to check us out on YouTube and our YouTube page, For Freedom Podcast on YouTube. And until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFPNetwork.org. To find more podcasts like this one, resources, and meetups to encourage you on your journey. We will findrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrew

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