49. RFP Meetup Live Episode: Manipulation w/ Brian Bode

Welcome back, everybody. This is the For Freedom Podcast. I am John Hollifield, and with me is James Saifert. How's it going, James? John, I'm doing good. It is good to be, well, I can't say it's good to be back because I wish we were back in person, not on a video screen. I do miss the face-to-face interaction, the live interaction with our fans. It's really hard for me to say fans. I wouldn't say fans. I wouldn't say fans. I would say family. Family. Yeah, that'd be a good term for it. With the fam. Man, I was just blown away. You said yesterday in the fam page, you know, you said something like, you're still blown away that, you know, people listen. And I am too. You know, I thought our friends and family were about it. And then we run into people and they say they've listened to every episode. So that is, it's humbling. It is an honor. I even ran into a couple of people in our community yesterday that told me that they had been listening to me. I'm like, wow, that's crazy. That's really cool. Yeah, the meetup was amazing. And I can't wait till the next one. I told you, James, I've been to like T4G Together for the Gospel where you have 12,000 believers there listening to like MacArthur and Piper and all these big name guys. I've been to the Keith and Kristen Getty's Sing Conference, which was amazing. Hearing Alistair Begg and different people like that. I got to tell you, this is probably the best like Christian gathering I've ever been to. I've never been to a place where it was so easy just to pick up a conversation and talk to somebody where somebody is just willing to come up and talk to you right away. I mean, and I did say this on Facebook yesterday. I said, you know, me and you got into this to help people. And that was sort of our goal. We thought maybe we could share something that could help someone. And we still were still trying to do that. But man, I was the one that walked away. Changed. I was the one walked away impacted. Because I mean, just hearing some of the stories and we're going to share those some of those stories. But I mean, there's there's even one and probably the one that was most impactful. I can't even share. I can't even talk about publicly. I mean, it was just like, wow. And I'm still I just want to say a huge thank you to Brian, Nathan and JC for thinking of this, envisioning this and putting it together. Inviting us to be a part of it. I mean, it was it was life changing really is what it was. Yeah. And you know, one thing that as you're saying that that really brought a lot to my mind was when we share our stories on this episode on these episodes, the people begin to know who we are, they know our struggles, you know, I'm pretty raw. I share some things on here that my wife's like, man, why did you say that? I just I'm just talking to me and John are just all we do is we get on here, we just talk to each other like we do every day on the phone. And so people have heard our stories, they know who we are, they can relate, they can talk to us. So it's like they already know us almost to where we don't. We don't know them, but we're learning and we're getting to know them. And that was the cool part about these three interviews that we got to sit down with and talk with. Before we get into that, John, we have some people that were missing at the RFP meetup. Let's go ahead and give a shout out to those that weren't there. We'll start out with Sam and David, 26 letters. Yeah, Sam and David Valesquez. I mean, guys, I'm going to say this, and I'll take the shade for it. I'll take the heat for it. I'm creating in the wrestling world, they say, are you going to create heat for yourself? I'm going to create some heat. You other podcast hosts need to get your act together and get to one of these meetups, man. I mean, seriously, Dave and Sam, we need to meet you in person. And we need you guys at one of these. John, my man, John Groves, you got to come, man. You got to make it happen. When they have the next one where when we do this camp meeting, we've got to get us all together. And we just need to put our funds together and just bring Mike and Jim Peters home. That would be awesome. And bring them, well, I say home. I know their mindset is making Spain their home, but we need to bring them over here to get them together with the family. And then, of course, Josh and Clay. We got to have Josh and Clay. And who are we missing? Are we missing anybody? Yeah. I mean, I guess he's not really part of the RFP, but Will. I mean, Brian's the better. Who's Will Hess? Who's Will Hess? We took away his co-host. His best part. And the church split is going to come crumbling. That's right. Oh, that was great. Yeah, it was great to have Brian on that episode with us when we recorded it live. So, man, it was really cool just to sit down with Brian in person and hang out and talk for, you know, 30, 40 minutes after the first session. And then as we just continued to have conversation and dialogue with him as the week went on, it was great. I really enjoyed that. Yeah, we had a lot of fun. Before we get into the episode we got today, because I know it's a long one, I did want to say one thing publicly, James. So, just so everybody knows. Now, we did, when we did this live session, we did a question and answer afterwards. We're not going to put that on the recording just because the questions weren't recorded. And so our answers really wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if you're trying to listen to them. But for those that were there that are listening to this, let me just explain what happened. The night before, me and James and Brian, Bodie, are all sitting around and we're planning this out. And we're like, okay, this is where we're going. You feel good? Yes. You feel good? Yes. All right. We all feel good about this. And then James says, I think we should do a question and answer session at the end. I was like, no. And he said, why? And I was like, because I don't know if I'm going to have the answers for question and answer session. And part of my reason for not wanting to do a question and answer session is because whenever you start talking about like relational or situational questions, if I'm in the room with you and you come to me with an issue, I've got about six questions automatically that I want to ask you to get clarification. Proverbs 18, 13 is what we base this off of. It's, you know, he that answers the matter before he hears it, it is folly. You know, I need to gather as much information to get to, you know, the exact situation that's going on. And so you can't really do that in a question and answer session. And so when James, I think some people saw my reaction when James said, hey, we're going to do some question and answer. And I was like, no, we're not. No, we're not. And I was seemed aggravated. I was genuinely aggravated at James. However, when I dropped James off at the airport, I did apologize to him and tell him to forgive me because I was aggravated at him. He told me to forgive him. He didn't ask for forgiveness. Oh, come on. You're killing me. Throwing me under the bus. Your words. It's your words. Throwing me under the bus. You just said it. So, so it was, it was brought to my attention later that even though maybe I, we probably couldn't have provided the best answers to those questions. It really encouraged him. I did not think about that aspect of it. And so I am glad we did it. And so, you know, props to James for, for, you know, pushing that and making me uncomfortable and all that kind of stuff. I'm here for John. I'm here to make you uncomfortable. Yeah. So we're excited about this. This is going to be our live episode session that we did at the meetup. And so we had a blast. We split the church split by having Brian Bodie join us and we did it on manipulation. So we hope this is a blessing to you. Welcome everybody. We are excited about this. We're extremely nervous as well. So never done anything. I was telling them earlier, this is a little bit different than being in my eight-year-old daughter's bedroom with books stacked and my microphone on top of it. So just bear with us. If we start messing up and running words together, that kind of thing. We're a little bit nervous. Hey, as we get started, we want to let y'all know we've got about 30 books in the back. They're all free. You guys can pick them up if you want them. If you don't want them, it's not going to hurt our feelings. We just want to be a blessing to you guys while we're here. And so take them because I don't want to fly back with them. It was hard enough flying with them to get here. And so pick them up as you leave. We brought them so you could have them. So, yeah, so it was until they're gone, you know, they're available back there. And so we are excited today. We are going to split the church split today. And we brought Brian Bodie in with us. So he's going to jump up here and he's going to do this episode that we are excited about. We've been doing some planning and prepping. And sort of goes along a little bit in the vein of the whole counseling spectrum that Nathan was talking about last night. And it's going to be on manipulation. But before we get started, let's go ahead and play our best intro. There we go. The best intro in the RFP network. I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James. You don't have a Bible. But you know, there's something about that local new guest. But independent from the middle. So when you say, I'm ready to get in the Bible. I'm a preacher. I'm a preacher. I'm a preacher. I'm a Baptist church. I still believe if you have gold today in the hell before I get my talents on a woman, I'm a preacher. The young preachers that do love God get pulled off into Calvinism. And I'll fight it. I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over there. I'll get personal with you. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP network. That seeks to bring freedom in Christ. From the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Hollifield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Come on, Mason. So the second half of the clips, I don't know if you guys probably pick out who the beginning clips were. But the second half of the clips, some of you in here might have recognized the first one was Matthew Lyon. Dr. Matthew Lyon of the History and Hope podcast and history historian. We had him on early days. And the second one was a lady that I interviewed back in the early days was a lady named Joy Forrest. And Joy Forrest runs a ministry out of North Carolina called the Peace Ministries. And that was on an episode. We did an episode on the link between domestic abuse and the pulpit. And sort of talking about how that can influence what goes on within the homes and toxic teachings there. And then the third one was by a guy out of Washington named Ben Marshall. He's a biblical counselor who was actually, the reason I had him on, he had just finished his doctoral thesis at Southern Seminary. And this was the subject of his thesis was the pedophilia and the gospel. And sort of working through those dynamics from a biblical perspective and repentance and that. So that's what we were talking there. And of course, I can't remember the name of the last guy. I don't know. There's something in my name. No, but the last clip came from the most listened to episode that we have in the podcast on bitterness with Nathan. And so we are excited about being here today. And we wanted to talk about a subject that I think is very prevalent with those who have the experience that we have. And not just applicational through your growth and that kind of thing, but also applicational in everyday life. Because we sat around talking last night for about 30, 40 minutes to an hour, you know, prepping for this. And talking about how much manipulation plays into familiar relationships. We even talked about the debate, the KJB debate, and a lot of argumentation that is done through manipulation. So we are excited about some of this material. And I'm going to be up front with you. There's nothing. I have zero original ideas. And so most of the material has been influenced by this booklet that we're going to put in the show notes called Manipulation by Lou Priolo. And some fantastic stuff in here. But James. Yeah, now we didn't start preparing for this last night. We started preparing for this weeks and weeks ago. But we brought Brian in last night and said, hey, you want to jump in with us and do a crossover live event? And we're going to just split the church split because that's their whole premise is splitting the church. And so we're going to split their podcast and have him join in with us. We chose to pick the better half of the church splits. And at this time, we're going to start even taking auditions for someone who wants to replace Brian on the church split. One guy mentioned Mitch Knup from the debate to replace Brian. I would actually pay money and subscribe to that podcast if it was Will and Mitch as co-host. I would. It would last five minutes and then they would kill each other. Say that again. It would last five minutes and then they'd kill each other. So as we get started with our crossover event. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry. Again, this is the nervousness of being out of our element. We are having a blast here. We were told, JC told us coming in, said, you guys come, be prepared to stay up. We're going to stay up late and talk. And we look around at 11 o'clock last night and we're like the only ones up. But we got to bed what time? Like one? Me and you didn't get to bed to about 1.30. In separate beds. Anybody? So just clarifying that. That will be edited out. Yeah. Fill a talk. Anyways. So anybody stay up later than that? Listen, I called my wife. Oh, I forgot Emily. Where's Lois? She's just right back here. Lois! That was really loud. Listen, I called my wife last night and I told her what I said. And she said, James, you are 100% correct. You would lay in bed and we would talk about... Why are we talking about this again? Because you brought it up! Okay. Let's play the intro for the crossover. What kind of shallow person do you want to become? Recovering from fundamentalism or something. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. And if there's such a word, you're stupider now. Don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and we'll all flub up together. Alright, so y'all ready to get flubbed up today? Come on. Okay, so we're talking about the subject of manipulation. And the interesting thing that makes this sort of so impactful in our lives and really causes us to fall, if I can use this word, victim to it, is because one of the most common factors of it is it tends to come from those people that we either respect or love. Which is why when you're talking about in a church setting or a leadership manipulating members and everything, that has happened so quickly because we have already bought into a situation where we are giving a lot of respect and submission to that authority. And so that is why it can be such a prevalent thing in church culture and toxic church culture. Webster's Dictionary defines manipulate this way. To control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means. But we pulled this definition from Lou Priolo, and he sort of takes that definition and plays it in for it as a Christian and biblical perspective and says this about it that I really liked. He said, in the Christian context for manipulation, it is using unbiblical means of controlling or influencing others. Using unbiblical means of controlling or influencing others. And so I'm going to go ahead and, you know, go ahead to go to Brian. And so, Brian, in your experience, you know, as someone who, you know, had a different church culture, even though there were some negative aspects of that church culture, and then being looking in, you know, from the outside of the IFE, have you seen that play out? Oh, yeah. It's obvious that there's tons of manipulation going on. And manipulation from people, like you said, that you should be able to trust. You should be able to trust your pastor. You should be able to trust your elders. You should be able to trust your Sunday school teacher. And it seems like that's used in almost a cult-like mentality to try to keep you in. And that can be manipulating you through things that you can't read, things that you can't listen to, people that you can't talk to anymore because they might have a different idea. And it really creates, we talk about a lot of times on church, but it creates that echo chamber. Yes. And it's manipulating you to stay in that echo chamber because then you can't challenge how they're trying to control you. Yes. Yeah. One of the things we mentioned last night as we're discussing through this, and Brian mentioned it. He said, in our world that we live in, and we don't talk about politics a lot on our podcast. Actually, I don't think we talk about it at all. But he, but Brian, on purpose. But Brian said, we purposely build up walls to protect ourself from a news media outlet or news things that we see on Facebook or Twitter, because we know, okay, this news source is going to be bent in a certain direction. But yet when it comes to a pastor in a pulpit, those walls are taken down because we can trust this guy. Yeah. And even familial relationships, we tend to not have those walls erected because, you know, that element of trust. And we can sense it when it comes from a news media source or something that we know is going to be manipulating us. We know they're going to have their bent. But when it comes from someone that we're close to or that we know we can trust, we just allow it to happen. It's easy to fall prey. It's falling prey to it, yeah. Manipulation is often an attempt to gain control of another individual or situation by inciting an emotional reaction rather than a biblical response from that individual. Let me read that again. Manipulation is often an attempt to gain control of another individual or situation by inciting an emotional reaction rather than a biblical response from that individual. And so we're going to talk about, as we're defining this, what it is. I'm going to let Brian take it back, too, because he sort of brought up this idea of where this is sometimes accomplished. And he immediately went to the Bible with one of the first tactics that is used. Yeah, you guys think about, or I go all the way back to Genesis, what's the first manipulation we see? We see Satan manipulating Eve, right? And he's going to her, and he's essentially appealing to her ego, appealing to her desire to be like God. And he kind of, what did God exactly say about what you can't eat? And she kind of explains, and he goes, you're not going to die. He's lying to you. And right there was the manipulation tactic, right? Sidestep the truth, shared some of it, right? Because they weren't going to die physically right then. They were going to die spiritually. But they didn't understand the difference there. He used maybe that vagueness of language to then manipulate Eve and then Adam into sinning against God for the first time. Yeah, and this is interesting. A lot of the manipulation, the tactic beginning to use, we called flattery last night. But when you look at a broader scope of cultic and cult cultures, there's a term that is actually used called love bombing. You know, a lot of people ask, how can people jump into crazy groups like Scientology that believe such wonky things? We look at that from an outsider looking in. But what we miss a lot of times is what that person is going through specifically in their life. And this group of community love bombs them and then brings them in. And that's a form of manipulation. They get them to the next tactic of manipulation, which is intimidation. So they bring them in with flattery and love bombing and then they're able to use. And once they've got them, they can then bring in the intimidation, which is, James, define what intimidation is. Intimidation is selfishly coercing someone to or inhibiting someone from a particular course of action, causing them some kind of threat. So you begin to maybe exploit their weakness, maybe exploit something that you know about them to intimidate them to do what you want them to do. And so many times this we see, I think in my avenue of life, the intimidation was more of anything, more so than the flattery or the love bombing. Because how many times did a pastor or someone that we knew, someone that we loved, would intimidate us, would say, and this even happened to me as a teenager. I was in middle school and my sister was in high school and she had started to date a black guy. And in our family, the way we were raised in our culture, that just was unacceptable. And she came to me and she said, James, if you tell dad that I'm dating a black guy, his name is Reggie, I'm going to tell dad that you've been cussing. And it was this intimidation, this factor of me of, man, I'm in middle school, my mom and dad don't know about this, I'm playing football, I don't want them to know about it. But she used that form of intimidation on a familial love. It wasn't flattery, it wasn't love bombing, but it was someone who was intimidating me to not say something to bend to their will. And so intimidation is a very, very hard one in my avenue of life. And we all have different ways of manipulation. I think one of the ways we see the worst form of intimidation in the church, and we've talked about this in our College Rules episode around the IRP, is that public shaming from the pulpit. You did something wrong and now the pastor, the man of God, is going to step up in front of everyone and publicly shame you. They are going to essentially bully the pulpit you into changing your behavior. And that's a very strong and obvious way of manipulation, but it also works. People will kowtow to that very easily because no one wants to be shouted down at. We've seen that with the IRP guys getting preached at from many different IRP pastors. Those are just other forms of trying to manipulate. Maybe not the IRP guys, but want to manipulate everyone who's listening to them. Oh, look, I'm going to try to use my platform to manipulate behavior. One of the first sermon clips that I saw of that, and it blew my mind because I made fun of it, but at the same time I was like, man, that's so true, was I believe it was Bill Reeves when he's preaching and he starts talking about this guy in the sound room and he goes down to the scumbag that's about to get married and he says, you're not even worth it. That wasn't Bill Reeves, but I had no idea. I call that the worst preaching clip ever. I don't know if you've seen it. It goes on for like four or five minutes and this guy's like, I love you. You know I love you. Shape up, boy. It was like a flattery and intimidation all at the same time. He's just going both back and forth, back and forth. This is a quote from a guy named George K. Simon in his book, Sheep's Clothing. He says, all of us have weaknesses and insecurities that a clever manipulator might exploit. Sometimes we're aware of these weaknesses and how someone might use them to take advantage of us. Sometimes we're unaware of our biggest vulnerabilities. Manipulators often know us better than we know ourselves. They know what buttons to push, when, and how hard. Our lack of self-knowledge sets us up to then be exploited. And James used a personal experience in a familial relationship. I may go to this and I may edit it out later because I'm not sure how much I want to, you know, if I want this out. But I'll say it this morning, you know, a lot of you know from just things that I've said that I have a brother who's in prison. And we were probably like, I mean, we were so close. We were, the closest relationship besides my wife that I had on this earth was my brother and me. And then whenever he was found out about the improper relationship he was having with a, well, the rape he was doing with a 13-year-old girl in his youth group, you know, he went to prison. It was like all of these things about his personality really just started saying, oh, and who he really was started coming to light. And so somebody asked, I think James asked me last night, when's the last time you talked to him? And I said it was December because right now I just don't, I just can't. I just can't because I realized how much this played into our relationship as brothers. And even to this day, still tries to do it through letters from prison. And it's like, I just, I just can't right now. And so because, and then what I was making that point to from what that guy said in his quote, because he knew what buttons to push with me to get me to action or get me to do this or that. And James 4, 1 through 3 says, where do, where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasures that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war, yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive because you ask amiss that you may spend it on your pleasures. The most interesting thing about this passage is the question that James asks at the very beginning. Where do the wars come? You know, we get that, we see that automatically and we think, you know, maybe wars between nations. But bring it more close to home. Where do the disagreements, the fights, the turmoil, the stress, the strain on relationships come? And he says, it starts right here. It starts in your heart. And when we talk about this idea of a manipulation or a manipulator, the issue is inside of them. The issue is what their intentions and motivations are that are an issue or a problem. And so Priolo said this, when people knowingly resort to manipulation to get something, it's because that something they want is wrong. So we are now going to transition to biblical responses. And I said that last night. My goal is to go to biblical helps. And let me just say this real quick. As far as sort of a mindset that I have and the association that I'm with has about secular modes or secular methods and this. So I'll just give you this. And if you disagree, we're cool. You know, we'll talk about it. We'll have a good time. You don't have to, you know, I'm not done with you or anything like that. But we believe in what's called the doctrine of common grace. So the doctrine of common grace is this, that we believe that not every single thing that's good that comes out of humanity has to be done by a believer. Right? I mean, science, we understand there's scientific advances and technological advances that has improved the human condition that didn't happen by people that were born again believers. Correct? Okay. So the same thing can be said about the observation of the human situation, the human mind, human behavior. We understand because of God's common grace that those who are unbelievers can make observations that can help us about the human condition. Where I separate from a secular model is this. I believe they're starting from a wrong beginning point. Because most secular models start from this point. That you're good. You're actually good. And really you just need a little bit of tweaking. Okay? And this is where you see the proliferation in culture today of you need to love yourself more. And this may be controversial to some and you may disagree with this, but it's cool. I believe the Bible teaches us that the problem is that we love ourselves too much already. And so because their starting point is wrong, I believe that most of their conclusions or all of their conclusions are going to end up being faulty as well. Okay? So, and I don't want to get into the weeds about medicine. I don't have an issue with medication and that kind of thing. I could probably, we should probably do an episode on that on how the IFB has really jacked that idea up as well. But in this, we're going to go to some biblical responses on how to handle this issue. So go ahead, Jake. Yeah, no, I think, and we're going to specifically look at two, maybe three, depending on the amount of time, of biblical manipulation tactics that someone used against Jesus and how he responded in those moments. And we'll start by saying this, Jesus communicated manipulation to people. When Jesus, I'm sorry, when Jesus communicated with manipulative people, he never used communicative forms that violated scripture. He always went back to scripture and what it was, what was right according to scripture. He also, he never let a manipulator walk away from a conversation believing that they were wise in their own eyes. That's huge. Because, yeah. I think that's huge. Because this is where we get caught. We may be aware that someone is trying to practice manipulation on them, but we have a, this is where we struggle. We struggle with our response. Because we either give in to it or we shut down and they still walk away thinking the issues with us. Or the issue, like, they're still right in their own eyes. And the amazing thing about how Christ handled things is we might say it this way. He put them in their place. But he didn't do it in a way that we may think in a fundamentalist way of putting them in their place where, you know, bless God, you're just a quintessential rebel and you have rotten fruit in your life. Oh, my. Oh, my. They're back there talking. They don't even care. Yeah. Love you guys. I wanted to ask my question. You know what my question I wanted to ask last night was? What's the difference between 20 and 20 pounds? Oh. I'm going to water my fruit. All right. Brian, do you have anything that's sort of weird off there? Yeah, I think it's kind of funny when people try to manipulate Jesus, right? We were talking about this last night. Trying to manipulate the all-knowing God who created everything on this world. You're already kind of going up against a wall that you can't climb. But we all don't get that benefit. So the nice thing is Jesus gave us these examples of how we would dress a manipulator in a biblical way. Giving them truth in a kind way would, like you said, also make sure that they can walk away. And know that they were not successful in their manipulation. And maybe they need to think about how they're interacting with other people. Yeah. And we see that Jesus ultimately responded in two specific ways. The first way is he appealed to the conscience of the manipulator. He began to figure out, okay, where is this guy coming from? What mode is this guy coming from? And then he appealed to God's word. So he looked at the person first, addressed that issue, but then gave them a response with God's word. And I think too many times we don't give that proper response. And we're going to talk about that at the end of this. And when we don't give the proper response, that person, as John said, walks away thinking that he won, thinking that he's still in control. And he never walks away mulling over what was just said. One of the things that John and I were talking about last night was when we watched some old debates with different guys, James White, whoever you want to do, they would give a statement. And John even was talking about the guy that your pastor, when he talked about Egypt. And about, give that illustration about, and how. He used the logic, like the same sort of faulty logic that I was using with the King James argument. And he used it, but he didn't believe it himself. And he came back to me later and was like, listen, I don't believe that. But I was showing you how you were actually, that's sort of a manipulative tactic there. And he was, you know, the whole argument in the King James argument about Egypt is a sign of the world. Therefore, the whole law first mentions of the manuscripts that come from Alexander and text type is wicked and wrong. And so I was sitting there one night on a work night, you know, giving my pastor this sort of diatribe of like, you know, well, the reason why it's good is because it comes from a corrupt manuscript line. And he used to look to me and he said, and he said, why? And I said, because Egypt's a sign of the world. He said, you know what else Egypt was a sign of? And I said, what? And he said, preservation. He said, where did God preserve the nation of Israel so they could flourish and grow 400 years in Egypt? I was like, what? And he said, where did God send his son to protect him from Herod? I said, Egypt. He's like, yeah. And I was like, oh, man. My mental mind frame is just falling apart right now. And then he came to me later. He's like, I don't even agree with that logic. I'm showing you how you can twist it around and make it say what you want it to say. And I was like, oh, okay. I need to study this. And he's like, yeah, you do. But it was a form of manipulation that drove a response to grow. Yeah. And so we're not saying that all manipulation is wrong. And I think Brian said this. If you're a parent in here, raise your hand. Okay. How many times as a parent do we manipulate our children? If you do this, you'll get a candy. You'll get whatever. We did that as a kid to get them to eat certain things, to do certain things. We manipulate them because it's for their good. At times. Okay. You better let Brian explain it. Yeah. Brian explained it better than I did. Yeah. Explain the way you were talking about that. Yeah. What? So I'm here to save this podcast, guys. That's right. That's why we stole it. Will is here. Go ahead. They will. So I realized this for our son. It was there last night. Four years. The first time he ate by mouth, he was almost five years old. We realized really quick that the main mode of manipulation you do for your children is by food. Hey, you really like that food? Well, do this thing and then you can get this food. And I'm trying to help parent you into good behavior by setting out this reward. Right? It's a little bit of this leverage. Right? You're not trying to have leverage under kids. Our son didn't have that. He really liked toy buses. Well, they got kind of expensive because they were just constantly buying buses off of Amazon. How many more buses can we buy? But it kind of revealed to me that, you know, we as parents use manipulation for our kids to help mold good behavior. We're trying to do it out of a place of love. We want them to become good children and good followers of Christ. But we might use some manipulative tactics to try to shepherd them that way. But I think when it gets bad is when we start doing the things that you don't expect a parent to do. Right? Where they're manipulating them for their own selfish gain. Well, I'm going to do this so that dad gets five hours of peace and quiet at home so you can go do your own thing. That's the, you know, parent buy an iPad thing or whatever. So there's definitely some bad forms of that. And I think when you can ruin that relationship with your child and you manipulate them for your own benefit instead of theirs, they'll respect some of that manipulation later when they see why you did it and how you're helping improve them as a person. Yeah. He did a lot better job than I did just now. That's why we, hey, we talked about that at like midnight last night. My brain was on half hour. I did want to hit one passage before we got into Jesus' sayings because there's a passage that I think that would really be beneficial. It's commonly misunderstood. And that's Proverbs 20. Microphone's catching me back there. Proverbs 26, 4 and 5. And it seems like it's like contradicting itself in the very next verse. But it says, Do not answer a fool according to his folly or you will also be like him. Verse 5. Answer a fool as his folly deserves that he be not wise in his own eyes. Understanding the dynamic of those two verses will really help you. And this might be something to like write down and do a personal study on of getting this. But in the booklet, and I really encourage you to get this booklet and digest it. But he has a table, a column set up where he talks about the difference between answering to the folly and answering as his folly deserves. So one thing he says, In answering to his folly in verse 4, The manipulatee is drawn into a conflict by the manipulator. But if you're practicing verse 5, The manipulatee quickly gains control of the conversation. You know, answering him to the folly as he deserves. Let me read just one more and we'll move on. The manipulatee walks away feeling guilty, intimidated, frustrated, exasperated, like a failure or like a victim. And some of you are sitting there saying, Yep, been there. But if we're practicing verse 5, The manipulatee walks away confident that he or she, by God's grace, has silenced the manipulator's folly. You know, answering them. So, you know, how do we get to the point of answering that? And I think the answer to that question is found in the life of Christ. Now, we went back and forth because we had several, several examples of Christ doing this. And because of, we just figured we could be here for, you know, through lunch. And if you have not noticed, we like to eat. So, we scratched several of them. And we're just going to go to two. The first one is something that you're very, very familiar with. It's a story about Jesus at the home of Mary and Martha. And probably you've never seen it this way. And I say that because I had never seen it this way. But Mary is sitting there at the feet of Jesus worshiping. And Martha is working, working, working, working. All right? You familiar with me? Are you there? You know the story? All right. James, do you have the passage open? I do. Okay. Why don't you go ahead and read beginning in Luke 10, 38. Yeah. Now, as they were traveling along, he entered a certain village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home. She had a sister called Mary who was seated at the Lord's feet, listening to his words. But Mary was distracted with all the preparations. And she came to him. And she said, Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to do all the serving alone? Then bye. Did you catch it? Do you see it? There it is. Hey. Hey. Fresh, warm bread. Fresh. That's what she was making was fresh, warm bread right there. Are you pretty sure about that? I'm pretty sure. Okay. Did you catch, though? Did you catch where the manipulation was coming in? No. Do you not care? No. What did Martha want? She wanted help. She was frustrated that there was not any help and that the person that could help was doing, in her mind, nothing. All right? So what did she do? She appealed to an emotional reaction in Jesus and saying, do you not care about me? Putting Jesus on the, attempting to put Jesus on the defensive. Okay? So there was the manipulative tactic. So how did Jesus respond? James, you can finish reading. Well, I've got to finish reading her response. Oh, yeah. She said, Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to do all the serving alone? Didn't even give Jesus the time to respond. Because her very next words were, because she assumed, yes, he cares. Then tell her. She assumed his response. She thought that Jesus would say, yes, I care about it. Then go ahead and tell her to help me. But then the Lord answered her and said unto her, Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things. But the only thing, the one thing that is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her. All right. So here's the framework. And this happens at just about every response Jesus had to the manipulator. Two things. He appeals to her responsibility. And then he appeals to his will. So her responsibility and his will. So can you read, can you find that verse again and read it again? What was her responsibility? He says that you're worried about so many things. Go pick up from there. But only one thing is necessary. What's her responsibility? What Mary was fulfilling the responsibility. It was worship. It was, you know, leaning into God. And then he appealed to his will. Finish reading. Now. For Mary has chosen the good part. He pays my salary, by the way. For Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Okay. So what is God's will? It's worship. To be at the feet of Jesus. I mean, if you have not listened to the ladies of the RFWP talk about this on their podcast, they talk about worship in everyday life. Do you guys just sit there and talk about that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're giving them what to talk about here in just a minute. No, they're talking about that. I know. I'm just, I know. Jeez. Calm down. Calm down. Wow. You're so uptight right now, John. Man. Hey, breathe. Breathe. Breathe. Five minutes. Okay. All right. Will, I'm going to send it over to you after we talk sort of about those two points. Well, I think it was interesting, too. I don't know if you, I got, I'm going to, I'm a little bit of a controlling personality. You guys will. You'll say I'm very controlling. And I think we all probably can feel for the situation, too, where you're at church. You're trying to get something done, right? You have a job. I'm getting coffee right in the morning. You got to prep for Sunday school. And then you see someone and be like, I feel like they should be working more. I feel like they should be doing what my standard is for volunteering at the church. I think I need more help. And then we get mad at them. But maybe what they're doing is, you know, they're listening to someone's story. They're bearing each other's burdens. They're doing the right thing. They're doing what Jesus was talking about. How they are focusing on the right thing and not getting distracted by the busy work. And I don't think Martha was doing anything that was wrong here. But she was distracted by the busy work. And I think we see this a little bit in the IFP, too, where you get distracted by the busy work. Oh, you're not coming Wednesday night? Well, you're a terrible Christian. Right? And it's these standards that we're putting on the people because this is how we feel we should respond and act and be busy in the church. But that's not for everybody. And maybe we should all take a step back and just sit at Jesus' feet. I think that's marriage is the right thing. Yeah, because that's where your heart gets corrected. You know, that's the area where your true motivation. Was it wrong for Martha to desire help? No. It was not wrong for her to desire help. Where it went wrong was how she wanted to try to attempt to get the help. She was simply reacting in a way to get what she wanted. Instead of directly asking, hey, can Mary come help me for a second? You know, and so the other aspect. So I think that that would play more into the realm of like a familial manipulation a little bit. But we're going to go directly in sort of the idea of like a leadership type manipulation. Because as you know, and this is probably what you had originally thought of, was Jesus' interactions with the Pharisees, chief priests, scribes, those types of things. And there's plenty. But we're going to zero in on one instance that is in Luke chapter 20. James, you have that? I do. Okay. Luke 20, it says, and this is, when I was studying through this book and John sent me the notes, this one was the one that really got me to my heart because so many times this is how we can manipulate others, but others also manipulate us. So Luke chapter 20, we're going to read several verses because we want you to get the context. It says, The scribes and the chief priests tried to lay hands on him, which is Jesus, that very hour. They feared the people, for they understood that he spoke this parable against them. So they watched him and sent spies who pretended to be righteous in order they might catch him in some statement. So they could deliver him to the rule and authority of the governor. They questioned him saying, and this is the part right here, hopefully you'll catch it. Teacher, we know that you speak and teach correctly, and you are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. What are they doing to him? What are they doing to him? Yeah, well, uh, what? Flat battery. Yeah, that's what we call it. Love bombing. Love bombing. Love bombing. They're coming in, man, you are the greatest. You are the, you're teaching the way of God. You do, you don't even show partiality to anyone. All of a sudden they're building him up, building him up, building him up. And then the question is, is it lawful for us to pay tax to Caesar or not? Okay, so here is another thing. They're trying to catch him. They're trying to find, accomplish their nefarious means to get what they want. What do they want? They don't want Jesus. They want him to sort of be completely undone in the eyes of the people. So they're trying to manipulate the situation to where they have control of the conversation. They're building him up thinking they're going to manipulate an emotional response out of him. He does not give them that. Did you read his, read his response? I haven't read his response yet because I want to say one other thing. In both the response from Mary, the question from Mary and the questions from the scribes and chief priests, they all ask him a question that is responded with a yes or no traditionally. He can either say yes or no. He could tell Mary, no, she doesn't love you. Or he could tell the scribes and priests, no, you shouldn't do that yet. They're trying to catch him into this ultimatum of a direct answer. But sometimes we feel like that. Sometimes someone will accuse us or come to us and we feel like we have to give them that answer. We have to say yes or no. A question that's framed to put us in a question. Yes. Do you not love me? If you love me, you would do this. And all of a sudden we're like, well, yeah, I love you. Okay, I'll do it. We feel like we're in that bond. And that's where we're seeing in all these responses. And like I said, if we had time, we'd go through them. But this is where Jesus responds. And as Brian said, unfortunately, we don't have the all-knowing ability that God has. But he detected their trickery. I wish we could detect the trickery. I wish that for the last 25 years of my life, I could have detected the trickery. Okay. He detected the trickery and said to them, show me a Daenerys. Whose likeness is inscripted does it have on it? And they said, Caesar's. And then he said to them, then you specifically to them render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. And to God, the things that are God's. And they were unable to catch him in a saying in the presence of the people and marveled at his answer. And you ready? They became silent. They walked away, knew, and they were wrong. So what he did is he, again, he appealed to the responsibility and appealed to his will. So they're trying to get him, trying to figure out, like, put him in a bad place of, like, what are we supposed to give to Caesar? Because Jews hated Caesar. You know? And, you know, they're going to tear him, his, like, who he is and to the Jewish people down by catching him in this sort of question right here. And so what did he do? He said, all right, he appealed to their responsibility. You give to Caesar what you're supposed to. Then he appealed to God's will, to his will. You give to God what you're supposed to. And so he totally shut them down by doing those two things, appealing to their responsibility and appealing to his will. Brian? Yeah. I think if we can at least learn some tactics of trying to detect manipulation, then you can respond intelligently, right? You can respond to manipulation with truth. And I think that's very empowering. If we all can learn to do that, detect the manipulation, be on guard for it, don't fall victim to it, and then respond to it to a point where the manipulator knows that they were wrong. Like, oh, maybe I shouldn't try this technique anymore. And they can walk away like they walked away and go, whoops, I wasn't able to manipulate it. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because as we were talking last night, I said, okay, this is something I need to say, so don't let me forget. But this is what I remember. This is not something that you're going to get today that you're going to be like, oh, this is good information. Now you know. Now this won't be a problem for you at all. All right? Because why? You have already built up habits of how you respond to these things. Mental habits. And just like a physical habit is hard to break and that you have to keep doing something to adopt a new habit, you have to practice this habit. So it's going to take work of putting this into practice to where that is your second nature response, that you're going to shut it down. Now I understand some people's personalities are already sort of geared in that direction. But if you're anything like me, you're not. You're not at all. I mean, I was totally like I bought into the yes man mentality when I was in the IFB ministry because that was just the easiest route. You know, that was sort of my personality. I'll just do it. So it was easy for me to be manipulated for many, many years. But it takes understanding, number one, diving into these passages, taking what Jesus said, going to Proverbs 26, 4 and 5, and just really soaking that in, praying through it, talking to God about renewing your mind as Romans 12 tells us to do with these things, and then start exercising that habit at a time until it becomes the natural response to you. And if you're taking notes, we'll go ahead and give you the other scriptures you can look at on your own. Luke 2, 48 and 49. This is Jesus with Mary and Joseph. Luke 6, 1 through 2. And Matthew 15, 1 through 9. These are all moments where the Pharisees or the chief priests or the scribes tried accusing Jesus to manipulation. And then Matthew 20, 20 through 23 is Jesus with Miss Zebedee. So we transition now to this form of detecting manipulation. Yeah, it's going to be a fun part. This is where we're going to get a little more interaction with you guys and with Brian as he's up here. We may talk about Will a little bit. Since he's not here, we can do that. But a favored tactic of the ones that tried to manipulate Jesus was attempting to convince him or to convict him of sin that he never committed. Say that again. Yeah. The favored tactic of those who tried to manipulate Jesus was attempting to convict him of sin that he did not commit. Catch that. Because that's where a lot of you are. A lot of you are allowing people within your own family to manipulate you because they're making you feel bad for something God never said was a sin. Okay? And so we need to reorient our mind on what is actually correct behavior. Instead of allowing them to become the God of our lives. And I think Brian said this on his last RFP was the difference between sin and guilt. Was that you that said that? I actually used that Wednesday night when I was talking to our teenagers because too many times we get that confused with the sin and the guilt of what's going on in our life. And it's easy for someone to make you feel guilty of something when it was never sin to begin with. And so we've got to recognize those things. I didn't put this in our notes, but I have it highlighted in the booklet. So this is a lengthy quote, but I think it's worth reading. It says one particular form of manipulation is the misuse of guilt, of the misuse of guilt is making obligatory statements. When a manipulative person who is not your authority and therefore has no biblical basis for obligating you to do things apart from Scripture begins a sentence with one of the following phrases. Ask yourself where it is written that I am obligated to do that. Since there is no biblical mandate for you to do what you are being made to feel guilty for not doing, the manipulator is probably, consciously or otherwise, reaching for a handle to control you. They use these things. You should. You shouldn't. You must. You mustn't. You've got to. You better. You can't. You're supposed to. You ought to. When sentences start out with those, you need to start to say, all right, stop, check. Red flags. Is this biblical? Is this biblical? You know, before you allow them to say, yeah, I ought to. So let's go to the fun part. So the fun part is this. We're going to do role playing. All right. So we're going to take a little bit of we're going to take a little bit of page out of I think Dave and Sam of 26 letters does this sometimes with role playing. So we're going to take some role playing. And we're I'm not going to know. We're basically going to take what he gives in this. And so we're going to have some fun with it. And so there's a couple little examples of what to say. And so James and we're going to tag Brian in here a little bit with doing these roles. So James has been brushing up on his acting skills. And there's seven specific topics. OK, so in this book, it lays out ways that we can be manipulated. Examples. Examples. Well, it starts out with a friend to a friend. OK, so you want me to start? You want to read the first one? Sure. First one. OK. You want to be my friend. How could you do this to me? And our response would be, well, I just really wanted to or however you want to respond to that. But a biblical response would be, have I sinned against you? Are you upset with me because something that God isn't upset with me about? When all of a sudden that question comes, how could you do whatever? Are you fill in the blank? You're the role player. OK. Well, let's move to the next one. And since I started off, you'd be, this is the next one. This is a relationship of a mother to daughter. OK, so James, you're going to be the mother and I'll be the daughter. OK. Do I have to speak like a mom? Yes. Yes. You need to bring your best mom voice. Come on. All right. And so, hey, let me get, before we get started. Obviously, your mom's a smoker. Well, my mom's not. OK. When we go through this, this one right here and my wife, she doesn't listen to our episodes, so she's not going to listen to it anyways. So I can say whatever I want about our family. Edit it out. So this one right here, if you're a mom in here, you have probably been manipulated this way from your mother because it starts out by saying this. I don't appreciate. Oh, no, you got to do better than that. I'm not going to speak up. It's way too early for me to speak up. You can do better than that. Come on. I don't appreciate what you're doing to my grandchildren. God hasn't given you the responsibility to raise our children. According to the Bible, mom, when I got married, I left your authority and established a new decision-making unit with my spouse. It is wrong for you to now let us leave and cleave by imposing on us your own biblical standards. We certainly welcome any biblical input and support you can provide in reference for our parenting. But the final decision about how we raise our children is ours, not yours. How many of you ladies could respond to your mother like that if she said, you shouldn't do that to my grandchildren? One person. Get along. Okay? Listen, my wife and my mother-in-law, me and my mother-in-law, if you listen to our podcast, we don't get along well. But she uses this all the time. She'll come to my wife and she'll say, why are you letting your son do that? And my wife will respond to her and I'm glad she does it. She says, mom, this is what you trained me to do. This is how you raised me. You're judging me for the things that you did. Oh, no, no. I never did that. And all of a sudden, it's this thing in her mind where she wants to manipulate. She wants to control. She still wants to be in that way of manipulating. All right. So we're going to put Brian in. And since James doesn't want to act. I can't speak. Okay. It's way too early. Brian's going to start. This one is a husband to wife. We're married. Sorry, Stacy. Pillow talk. Pillow talk. I'm kind of feeling convicted about this because I've literally said this. So I actually feel a little bit good about it. How could you possibly talk to me about my sin when yours is so much worse than mine? Sweetheart. Sweetheart. It is your responsibility to convict me of my sin as it is my responsibility to convict you of yours. The Bible says that when you reprove me, I should heed your reproof. And when I reprove you, you should heed mine. I will be more than happy to respond biblically to your concerns about my sin after we finish talking about yours. I just pulled out my phone and started playing on Facebook. My wife and I, we have this kind of moniker. We're kind of bickering. We always say troubled marriage. And that's what I would have said to that. No troubled marriage. All right, James. I'm going to hand it over to you. You and Brian do employee to employer. Okay. I'll be your employer. All right. You can. Brian, if you were a team player, or I'll be Will. Okay. Okay. I'll be Will. I'll be the boss here. Brian, if you were a team player, you wouldn't mind putting in extra time on those video editing and all that audio editing and making extra time on the weekend working. Okay. That's what it says, John. You stay over there. Okay. You wouldn't mind putting in extra time on the weekend and working extra hours to make this podcast and our success on the internet great. Will. I'm a Christian. I have to play by God's rules. God says I must serve my employer with sincerity and honesty, but he also has given me other responsibilities outside of this job, which I cannot neglect. I can't always work the weekend without sitting against my Lord. Do you think it is right for an employer to ask an employee to violate his religious convictions? You see, all these ends with a question back to the manipulator. Do you think it's right for me to violate God by working and doing what you want me to do? How would you really answer that question? How would you really answer Will? Shut up, Will. You've always worked. You would be nowhere without me. That's not the biblical response. But this is a little bit pulling behind the curtain how we talk. He did actually try to manipulate me yesterday on Facebook, telling me I need to edit his music episode, and I actually wasn't here for it. Confession time with the church split. We got a little music in the background. It's not going away anytime soon, is it, James? All right. This one is next to husband and wife. So why don't we get a husband and wife from the crowd? This can go horribly wrong. It could. I don't care. Do we have a husband and wife that wants to come on? They said no. They said no. Who? We got him. Come on up. Come on up. You've got your book. I've got my book. All right. The marriage is ended. You've got to come too. It just can't be one person. All right. So you're going to do that one and make up any. I feel as though we might have just manipulated them to come up. Not us. Nathan. Nathan did. We just blamed it on you, man. Here. I've got one for her. She can look at this one. You're going to do that response. If you really love me, you would make me look good in front of my parents. Oh, snap. Is this hitting too close to home already? That would be one of those. Holy Spirit. Love doesn't prove joy synically, but it's just in the truth. It is because I love you that I cannot find grace. I don't know if that was healthy right now or not. That might have just been unhealthy. Okay. Let's not do that again. Good job, guys. Thank you. Hey, we don't ever have a live audience, so I'm just trying to do something a little different. Thank you, James. But, you know. All right. So, I know that these are sort of, and this was part of sort of the humor behind this. I know these responses are not something that we're actually going to, like, pull out and read. The idea is, though, that of getting, if you've noticed in each response, the response in this situation is doing what Jesus did. Appealing to responsibility. Appealing to his will. You know, pulling out the actual biblical issue of what, where the sin is, where the problem is. What should, what are the, what are the mandates that you should be doing? You know, you're actually mandated to do these things. You know, this job is, and this boss is manipulating you to neglect your responsibilities. That kind of thing. So, that's the idea. We got two more. Here for the finale. The finale is a church leader to a church member. Okay. So, all the pastors are sort of on their toes, hoping that this is not what they've ever said to any of their church people. Do I need to be the M.Y.G. here? Yes. Yeah. All right. So, yeah. You start off. Be a hand one. I can't do anything. I'm just asking you when I can't do them. If your priorities were right, you'd be here at church every time the doors were open. How many of y'all have heard that before? How many has heard that before? Oh, snap. Three to thrive. Three to thrive. The altar's open for anyone that needs to come down here. Brother, where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians are supposed to be at church every time the doors are opened? Haven't you taught us that God has given Christians other priorities besides their ecclesiastical responsibilities? Get out of my church. Responsibility, God's will. Responsibility, God's will. And so I hope this was helpful for you. And in the conclusion, be like Jesus. Be like Jesus. Proverbs 15, 28. The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things. Brian, do you have any closing comments you want to make on this subject? I think one thing we didn't talk about was gossip in the church. And I think that's also a form of manipulation, something I think we all probably have participated in once or twice. But it's a way that you're essentially intimidating a person. Like we talked about convicting someone of sin that they didn't commit. I think gossip's a great reminder. Did you hear what James did last night? I'm going to tell you what James did last night. We will all hate him for it. And you're essentially building a crowd against someone based on a sin that they didn't commit. And I've literally seen this personally. And that's what kind of hits home for us when the church splits. This is how church splits happen a lot, right? You identify your target. And sometimes it's not people in church, right? Sometimes it's the pastor. I've seen that too, where part of the church is gaining up from the pastor and going after him. Putting him on a platform, saying there's something he's not allowed to do, but everyone else is. Because they're manipulated, 1 Timothy 3. I think that's a real strong form of manipulation. And we're talking about recognizing manipulation and stopping it. Gossip's an easy one to recognize and stop. Don't keep it going. Don't listen to it. Don't bend near to gossip like Paul talks about. And tell them to stop. Tell them what they're doing, tell them this gossip. And stop the manipulation there. That's how you can save churches from splitting a lot of times. That's great. I think we're, I think we're, the timing we got. Are we done or? I think we're almost up to, I want to be done. Is there any other, is there any other questions for John? He's not done. You can ask more questions. I don't see anything. All right. Hey, two quick things. We've got books on the back table. Take them. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Brian for coming and hanging out. Second thing is I brought a little mobile recording thing. And I want to record some of your guys' stories at some point. If you want to share. You don't have to share it all. But we want to do a, like a, an episode of four or five people just giving a 10 minute blurb of their story. Record it live here. I'll have it with me in my bag. And just meet with me and John at some point. If you don't feel comfortable, we don't want you to do it. But if you want to share and you've never shared before, do you want to be on the podcast? We don't have a lot of people that listen to us. So it's not like you're going to, it's not going to be on the RFP or anything. So, but yeah, we, we would love to have you on that. John, close us out. Thank you. Thank you everybody for listening. And thank you for the questions today. Thank you for just coming and being able to talk to us and, and get to know you. It is so encouraging and exciting to be here. And, and as far as the podcast goes, like, subscribe, share it. And until next time. YouTube. YouTube. And we got a YouTube page. You can see us. I don't like the YouTube thing. But, uh, okay. Are we ready? I think we're ready. Okay. Until next time. To God. Not the pastor. Be the glory. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFPNetwork.org. To find more podcasts like this one, resources, and meetups to encourage you on your journey. 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