43. RFP Network Crossover Series Part 5: Women & Theology w/ Emily Louis & Lois McNair

And here we go. And here we go. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. If there's such a word, you're stupider now. Don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and we'll all flub up together. Well, it's great to have with us today Lois and Emily from the RFWP. I know it's not the Recovering Fundamentals Women's podcast, but that's what me and my wife call it. And it actually has been a blessing. My wife has been listening to you guys, and she doesn't listen to ours. Me and John, we have tried to get our wives to listen, but she does enjoy listening to y'all's episodes. And so it's good to have y'all on. So Lois, Emily, welcome to the show. And tell us a little bit about how things have been going with you guys' life. Thank you. We're so glad to be here. Life is good. Growing and stretching. God has been going before us and finding a new home church. And that's been a process and honestly, a growth process, but a good process because he's been so faithful. I'd say that's the biggest marker of what's going on in our life right now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited to be hanging out with you guys. And we were supposed to do this a little while back and things kind of went topsy-turvy. So I'm glad we're finally getting to do this. Um, no pun intended on the topsy-turvy. I think your child actually went topsy-turvy. Yes, she did. Aw. Um, but yeah, you know, without sounding like I'm giving the Sunday school answer, you know, things are going well. We've been in some transition recently, but, um, but we're in a good place. And I think Emily and I are in a good place. We've been just, the more we, um, record together, the more we get to know each other. We talk during the week all the time. Um, still trying to get her to move down here where I live. Um, but, but yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. I think that's one of the things that, uh, has been encouraging to me about this, this family of the RFP is, um, relationship building. Um, and even, even between James and I, I've been friends since like the early nursery days in church, but I mean, our relationship has grown stronger and we've, we've actually been studying things and we, we're, we're, we're venturing into a book study right now together as pastors and, and just building relationships. So I was able to talk with, uh, Nathan the other day on the phone and, and, you know, just some encouraging things saying back and forth and, and just the family relationships that we've been able to meet and, and, and, and grow together is, has been really encouraging, especially in the community group on Facebook. And I think that's one of the unique and cool things that's been about this entire experience. Yeah. Are you guys going to the meetup this week? We're going to the one in Missouri. Yeah. We're Missouri bound. Yes. Okay, good. Then I won't have FOMO because Emily and I are not going this week either, but we are planning on being in Missouri. Awesome. Well, we look forward to being, meet with you guys there. Missouri's where it's at. That's right. That's right. We're coming for you, Matt Dudley. I will say this, John, to add on what you were saying the other day, I've been keeping my, my kids in the office with me this week and I was talking to John on the phone and my son came into my office and he said, who are you talking to? John again? Like he didn't even ask if mom was there. He just said, are you on the phone with John again? So that's, that's pretty much how it is right now. So, well, give us a little update about your podcast, RFWP. Um, I've enjoyed listening to your episodes. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I wanted to like rob something from them that they do. Okay. Because, uh, one of the things that I like about, and I've listened to every episode. I've listened to every. Have you seriously? Yes, because. Oh my gosh, that makes me smile. Whenever you guys subbed in for the RFP and that very ending where it was boopers had me hooked from the get go. I said, no, I'm listening to this. It was just, I was cracking up. And so the fact that you guys are not afraid to just, uh, feel, you know, a little crazy and to have fun. Me and James are like, feel like we're like, okay, people are not listening to this whenever we start getting into the silly mode, but, uh, we really enjoy that. So one of the things that you guys do that I really think is cool is the beginning of your, is it you're happy or your micro? Yeah. Micro joy. Okay. Micro joy. Yes. Your micro joy. Okay. James, I want to start with you. What's your micro today? My micro joy is we went toward a new school for my kids. My wife is transitioning from the current school that she's teaching at to a new school. Um, it was just really refreshing to us to sit down to a school that's been 27 years old, um, knows how to teach, knows what they're doing. Uh, it was just really refreshing to us. Okay. Awesome. Emily. Today I was on YouTube and I found a video of Michael Bublé singing, uh, a dream that you wish or a dream that was that song from Cinderella. Uh, a dream that you wish your heart makes when you're fast asleep. Yeah. I love that today. It was just a little punch of happy. Okay. You can't, you can't not like Michael Bublé. And for those of you who are Michael Bublé haters, I have, I have, I have nothing to say to you. I think he had like two or three songs at my wedding. Yeah. Oh, seriously. So did, so did he come sing at your wedding, John? Uh, no. So my mind's going crazy because the singers that we did have at the wedding, but, uh, I can't say that on there. We, uh, I will say that I did really enjoy, I don't know if y'all listen to 26 letters. They're my favorite of the podcast of the family. Oh, outside of our podcast, they're the favorite. Um, I just really liked the married couple style and what they've got going on. They have phenomenal chemistry. Man, they're so great. They just enjoy listening to them. I can't wait to meet them in person, but they just crack me up and they bring me joy. Every time I listen to their podcast. You're right. You're right. They do. Uh, but at the end of their last episode, they mentioned Michael Bublé as the, uh, you can listen to him anytime because he's the nostalgia twenties, thirties, um, the twenties, thirties style singer. Uh, so it was pretty great when you said that Michael Bublé. Yeah. So my micro is, I got a video call from Lois McNair. Come on. And then what made it great is that like, it was right. It was right. She sees my face. She busts out laughing. And then it said, James doesn't answer. Emily doesn't answer. I was going to answer, but I was in the middle of a meeting. I saw it come through and I was like, what is going on? But I didn't. So tell us, Lois. Why did you call John on FaceTime? Okay, John, I just need you to make sure that you tell your wife that I didn't call you on FaceTime on purpose. And, um, when I meet her to not throat punch me. Okay. Um, even though I'm probably old enough to be your mom, but, uh, so I, we were talking about, you know, what we were going to do this week, uh, coming on with you guys. And I literally thought that I was FaceTiming Emily because, you know, in the Facebook group and I said, Oh, Emily's live and has a little green dot next to her camera. So I thought I was FaceTiming Emily. It pops up. I see John in his car with earbuds in with this big, huge grin and I just lost it. I just, I just laughed. I think I laughed like through the whole conversation because I was so shocked. Why didn't you answer Emily? I didn't even hear it ring. Oh, I was, I was in total shock. And then without, you know, giving too much information, then you go into all of the, um, bloopers that you've seen over the last year with people on zoom and COVID 2020. And so all of a sudden I'm going, wait, you know, am I in my office? What do I have on? Do I, you know, cause I'm thinking I'm calling Emily and all of a sudden here's John. Yeah. That was pretty funny. Hey, have you guys seen the one about the lawyer with the cat? He doesn't know how to change the app. His eyes are like, it was, yes, that was, that's probably my favorite, favorite, one of my favorite moments of COVID-19. Yes, that one was great. Okay. Let's, let's get on subject now. Wait, we're not on subject. I thought we were. Let's, uh, let's, let's start today. So we've sort of introduced you guys. Let's talk a little bit about, uh, you guys' podcast and, and sort of your, uh, it coming together and getting started and sort of the, uh, your hearts behind it. Yeah. So, yeah, um, back summer of 2020 in the, the midst of COVID, um, I, I grew up in Chattanooga after we moved from Chicago. So like all my teen years and college and married were in Chattanooga. I was going to be in Chattanooga and I contacted Nathan and I said, Hey, I'm going to be up. You had talked about, you know, maybe coming on the show. So, so I did and did a couple of episodes with the guys, um, this past summer. And then they just kind of like, we, we need to continue to have a female episode possibly and all. And then Emily reached out to JC and, um, then she and I connected, uh, I guess we connected through text, but the first time we talked in person, quote unquote, on zoom was in December. And we just clicked immediately. And the rest is history. Yeah. So as far as our heart behind the podcast, we really want to minister to women from all kinds of religious backgrounds that have oppressed them. Whether, uh, the oppression that you see within IFB or just given them bad theology and, uh, the grounds for not a very healthy relationship with God. So the RFWP, we played off of the RFP, but those four letters stand for relational faith, wonder, and your purpose. And that's what we hope to dig into as we grow and minister through the podcast, um, to be relational with people, to help them grow their faith by seeking God's truth and finding his heart. And then just standing in wonder at that and finding purpose for yourself individually, because the Holy spirit does speak to us each and has a plan for us that we can tap into. Yeah. That's awesome. And like I said earlier, we, we enjoy listening to it and, uh, enjoy getting you guys' take on things. And that's sort of going to lead us into what we want to talk about today. And that is, this is the, the, the subject title women as theologians. And, um, I think when we think about sort of all of our backgrounds, one of the prevailing, I guess, teachings really is sort of a, a gothard like teaching, which is sort of like put like the women underneath a, you know, their, their role isn't even to teach or learn or anything like that. Because before they go to God, they go through their husband almost to get to God. And I know it's not worded exactly like that, but I mean, it ends up being practiced that way. And, um, and see, I have, there's a lady at our church and, uh, a young mom. And there was a ladies meeting that came up and whenever they were asking who's going to go to this ladies meeting, her attitude really was like, I was like, wow, that's an interesting thought. She said that, you know, she wasn't really enthused by it. And I was like, well, why? And she said, because a lot of ladies meetings that I've been exposed to is a bunch of fluff. It's, it's about, you know, either, you know, they deal with the two S's. One is, I'm not going to talk about the other one is, is submitting to your husband. And, uh, she said, if, if you go to a men's conference, they'll talk about theology. And she said, why is it theology good enough for us? And I was like, that's a great point. And I think, um, another thing that sort of spurred this was a quote by R.C. Sproul. Theology is inescapable. Not everybody's a professional theologian with a capital T, but we're all theologians in the lowercase t because we all have some view of who God is. And so fundamental to living and walking as a Christian is a clear understanding of the truth of God. And, you know, as, as men, um, how bankrupt would we be if we don't recognize that, uh, how the ladies in our life, you know, this is important to them. Because if I think who has the most influence on our children, it's their mom who spends the most time with them. If I think that she's not capable of learning theology and the deep things of God, then, you know, that's toward changing the entire family. Right. And so the first question I think that I wanted to get to is sort of, as we set this up is what is theology? What is theology? I know that can be a scary word to many. So what is theology? You know, I, there's been a lot of, of talk about that. Um, the, you know, Theo bros, sheologians, all of this stuff. And, and I think people try to make it so complicated and plus they spend a whole lot of time arguing about it unnecessarily because theology in its most basic term is simply the study of God. You know, and I understand that it breaks out from there. So I'm not trying to, um, dumb it down if that's a term, but it's, it's the, it's the study of God. Um, and I've got a little bit more to share about that in a minute, but go ahead, Emily. Yeah. I like what you said. That quote was really, there's a lot to unpack in that quote. And he talks about everyone has some view of God and we all have a theology in our head of who we picture God to be. And that impacts how we relate to him. Whether you grew up with God feeling harsh or distant, or your relationship with him felt mechanical because you didn't think he was very involved in your life. That impacts how you're talking to him and relating to him. So it does come down to like, if we can boil it down, your view of who God is and like working out that, because when you get your view of God figured out and get it straight, everything else can fall into line. And then you can use that as a filter for everything else that you're studying and, um, trying to make decisions on in your life. That's good. I do have a question as well, as we began talking about this, because, um, when you think of theology, when you think of studying God's word, um, I began, as I was prepared for this, as John sent these notes over, uh, less than 12 hours ago, which was great. Um, I began just sitting there and looking and studying and I began seeing all my commentaries and all my books that I study and everything I've been reading. Um, I don't have a commentary. I'm not saying that we should, uh, throw out all the commentaries by men and only have women commentaries. I'm not saying we should only have women books. I'm not saying we should only have, you know, black theologians. Uh, I'm not all about that, but I'm thinking, why is it that, uh, these editors should have all of those things? Yeah. I'm not saying we shouldn't, but we should have a mix. Yeah. Yeah. But why is it, why is it that women, one, you don't hear about them embracing deep theology and two, why don't we see those theologians that are women? And, you know, when I, just this week, I bought a new for you commentary, cause I love that series of commentaries. It's on the revelation and, uh, it was by mail. And so I began looking at all of them and they're all by mails. Um, I have one really good book that's written by a husband and wife, um, that I've read, um, both of, uh, both of them, the reset and the, um, oh, I can't remember what the wife wrote. Uh, but it's by the same Murray, David Murray and his wife. Um, and so why is it that women don't embrace the deep theology and why is it that they don't have a lot of books out there in publications? My question in your thoughts. Yeah. So I've been waiting for this question. Um, you know, it's really, you've, um, you've touched on a couple of things. I think we have to go back to the one question. Why do you think, uh, what do you think has kept women from embracing deep theology or whatever? And I, and I'm gonna, I'm going to challenge that question because we are out there. Women who love the study of the word of God and the meaning and things we're out there. And women have been out there for thousands of years that have wanted this. And I'm not trying to, um, put, pit this, you know, man against woman, because, you know, my husband is a, my husband's a preacher. He's a seminary, you know, grad. He's got his master's degree. But, you know, when I was in college in my four-year degree, I had 30 hours of Bible. You know, I also hear that some women have been told in whatever, um, denomination they grew up in, not to go to college, not to go to seminary. I mean, even at the front of the, the RFP, you've got a dude saying, you know, what makes women stupid is college. You know, I, if I ever come face to face with that person, um, I probably shouldn't say this, but you may have to come bail me out. But mom said, knock you out. But here's the thing. I don't think that women have not wanted to embrace deep theology. But in order to understand that, we've got to go all the way back to the Old Testament. And in the Old Testament, um, women had their role. And a lot of scholars will tell you somewhere between the Old Testament and the New Testament, as laws and things began to get added, not, not God's laws, but others' laws, it became thwarted. And, and so in the, in the Old Testament, you have, you have women like, like Deborah and, um, I'm not even, I can't remember certain names right now, but you have women in the Old Testament that, um, knew God's word. They knew the law. They knew these things. By the time we get to the New Testament, there have been so many things added culturally that at that point, women are not allowed to go to Hebrew school. Women are not allowed to go inside of the temple. If you looked back at how the tabernacle was built, how the temple was built, um, if I'm reading the right scholars, there wasn't originally a women's court. It got added later. And so the further in history you get, the more and more women are not allowed to study. You go back to the Orthodox, very Orthodox Jew rabbis wouldn't even speak to a woman, let alone let her come to Hebrew school. And so people have taken that out of context, the scripture where it says to teach your sons, um, as not being, you know, sons and daughters. So then when Jesus came, he came in and he busted up the patriarchy in that aspect. Um, Emily, I know you have a specific example you wanted to bring to that, but I, I'm just saying it hasn't always been this way. Um, and it wasn't God's original intention. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. And that specific example that comes to mind when we talk about women in theology is Mary and Martha. Martha was doing what we look at as a woman's job. She was in the kitchen. She was preparing. She was serving. And none of that is wrong. But when she said, Jesus, why isn't Mary doing this too? Like, why isn't Mary helping me? Why is she out here? I don't know. Was she with a bunch of other men studying or was she just at Jesus's feet learning? I don't know. You know, the Bible doesn't give us a ton of detail, but we do see Martha asking Jesus to, to tell Mary to get up and come help her. And Jesus says, Martha, you're troubled with many things. Mary has chosen the good part. And she's not just spending time with her savior. She's there also learning at Jesus's feet. And it's a beautiful example of how we can get in our minds about what someone else's job should look like. And maybe they're following the leading of the Holy Spirit and they're right where they need to be. Maybe even Martha wasn't supposed to be sitting there. Maybe she was doing what she was supposed to do. We can all be led into what we're supposed to be doing and be confident in that, whether it's sitting at Jesus's feet and learning or serving. Yeah. So I did some research. Oh, go ahead, John. Well, I really like your answers. I like both of your answers. I was actually, I'm doing like a personal sort of enrichment study as far as my counseling goes on, I'm trying to focus in on spiritual abuse. And so one of the things that I was reading up on today was about Jesus's ministry towards spiritual abuse, like sort of where it was found in the New Testament and how Jesus spoke against it. And one of the things that I think is interesting is that while Jesus spent a lot of time rebuking the spiritual abusers, and while spiritual abuse that extended from the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin covered everyone that was underneath them, it seems that the specific examples that you see in the Gospels tend to be women at the brunt end of that spiritual abuse. I mean, John 8, many believed to be Mary, the woman caught in adultery. It was them that were the culprits of that situation. You have the lady that was wiping Jesus' feet with her hair and her tears, and the Pharisee was the one disgusted with the situation. And it seems like I think that theme carries along. Whenever spiritual abuse happens, that abuse of power takes place, then it appears that women are the ones that are abused throughout history on that, if you go through things. Yeah. One thing that I wanted to say that I really appreciate, you brought my attention, Lois, as you're talking, we've been interviewing a lot of the RFP network of podcasts, and we've discussed legalism in various forms. But you brought out that almost the original sin of legalism was by the Hebrew rabbis in the Old Testament, as they began adding more and more rules to every, not just women, but to everyone, and specifically women. And that has carried over as tradition is more powerful than the Gospel in all situations. You know that tradition trumps the Bible most of the time. And so that's where this legalism has began to creep in, even if you go back as far as the Old Testament. Well, as you were talking about how they were not allowed to go to Hebrew school or that kind of thing, I even remember back in, when James and I were in Bible college, and you'd be sitting there in a Bible class. And it was not uncommon for students to raise their hand, ask questions, get into a dialogue slash a little bit back and forth with a teacher over a subject that they were wrestling over. Sure. However, any time it was a lady in the classroom, a college student, there was a female that did it, the reaction, not just by the teacher, but by the rest of the class was, you know, she's out of place. Yeah. Which is so, oh, I have so many words that I'm not going to say right now about that. But in doing some research, I came across a couple of articles about Jewish culture, and I found it very interesting that that switch began somewhere between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Women were separated from men in private, public and religious life. They could go to the temple, but they couldn't venture beyond the confines of the women's court. And then in parentheses, they say, and I mentioned this earlier, there was no such court found in the original descriptions of Solomon's temple. So we know that it was added later. That would be interesting research. Women were not allowed to participate in public prayer at the temple, although they were encouraged to have private prayer in their homes. The few rights of women included her right to go to the house of study to hear a sermon or pray. And she could attend a wedding feast, a house of mourning, or she could visit her relatives. But she could not go sit to learn and discuss the scriptures. And then I love this part. What brought about this drastic change from the esteem women had in the times of the Hebrew scriptures to their near exclusion from society by the era of the New Testament? Very likely, this degraded view of women's role was imported by Greek thought. The similarities between the Hellenistic and Talmudic views of women are remarkable. Through the influence of their heathen neighbors, the rabbis slowly relegated women to their first century seclusion. So again, we're talking legalism. We're talking the culture. And then, you know, Jesus comes and he goes out of his way to find Mary Magdalene. He goes out of his way to go to the woman at the well. And the disciples are like, what are you doing? Like, wait a minute, why are you here? Why are you even talking to a woman? And I will tell you, in some parts of the country, countries, some parts of the world, that still exists. We were, I just talked about this, not this specific subject, but in 2011, my husband and I had the rare privilege of being taken to Israel. And we were there for 12 days. And so one of the days that we were near the wailing wall and near the court, my friend and I engaged in a conversation with an Orthodox rabbi. And, you know, she lived in Jerusalem for four years. So she kind of knew. And we had good, long conversation. We even talked about Jesus some and our differing views regarding that. And then when we walked away, she said, I've lived here four years and that's never happened. I'm like, what are you talking about? She said, the Orthodox rabbis don't stop to talk to women, especially about scriptural things. So some of that still exists. Why would it not exist in the United States? So I think to go back to it, there are so many women that love the study of scripture. They are writers. They are scholars. They are theologians in their own right. But we have kept them from being who God called them to be because we thought that's, I should say we very loosely, thought that's the way it was supposed to be. Yeah. When you said that, it even reminded me of when I went to India just, you know, seven, eight years ago. And I can remember only meeting the, it was a native Indian who was there and his wife. I can only remember meeting her once or twice. And I even asked one time, I said, Hey, why is your, your wife over here? And he said, in our culture where we're at, the woman is not allowed to leave the house without the man present. He said, so if she's to come over here, we were the house beside her. If she were to come over here, I would have to bring her over here. Yeah. He said it would be dishonoring for her to even leave the house without me present. That started in the, in the new Testament time. Yeah. That, that started that a woman was not allowed to leave her house. And before anybody thinks that we're the raging feminist women preacher podcast, that's not it. Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. It's just that. That is not who God created us to be. He created each and every one of us to be in his image, the Imago Dei. And to say that, um, women, you know, don't want deep theology and some don't, but guys, honestly, there are guys that don't want to dive deep into theology. So we can't stereotype one against the other. I think it's how we're wired. Some people want to dig deeper in their faith, in God's word. They want to pull out the commentaries, whether it's male or female. And then some people don't. I don't know if that makes sense, but it, you know, it's how we're wired. It's not necessarily male or female, but cultural traditions sure have kept women out of seminary. I mean, I even thought that growing up, cause that's what I was trained to think. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is definitely something that we, we've got to combat and battle even today, because one of the things that I really liked that Nathan had said whenever he was, Nathan Cravat said that whenever he was with you guys, was he brought out a point of like, where would our churches be? Where would most churches be without women? And that really struck a chord with me because of the years that I've been in ministry. If it wasn't for the ladies and the women, a lot of the churches I've been involved in was shut down. Yeah. And when you talk about those that are concerned about their Christian growth, their Christian walk, theology, for the most part, it's the women that's carrying the load. And, and, and, and, and, and for so long, instead of like those who, and I'm just, I'm just speaking to the culture, not sort of speaking like, this is what I, I affirm or believe, but those who've had the power have abused that without, instead of, you know, being that cheerleader and, and, and, and, and, and, and cultivating that. And, and, and that's something that, you know, as, as, as a senior pastor, as an elder at my church that I definitely never want to fall in the trap of. You know, James talked about reading books that, you know, he looked at his bookshelf, how many authors, and that's, that's something that I've been looking at as well. Like right now I'm reading, I was just thinking in my head, I got four or five books right now that I'm reading that are by female authors and they are incredibly enriching, incredibly, wonderful. I'm reading one by Darby Strickland. It's like that thick on how to, how to indicate, like how to find out what abuse is. It's called, is it abuse? It's like how to find out like when it's taking place, what happens. I'm reading Rachel Denhollander's What Is a Girl Worth? And I'm like, you know what, when my daughter becomes a teenager, she's going to read this book. You know, it's, it's, it's, there, there are some fantastic resources out there. I think that we are robbing the church if we don't stop with this, you know, unbiblical mindset. It's an unbiblical mindset. It is. And, you know, Emily and I did an episode around Easter. Emily, you remember the episode that we did about the women around Jesus? Yeah. You want to share any of, any of that? Because it's basically a part of what we're talking about. Because he came to break the cultural barriers. Yeah. One of the things that was super fun when we dug into that episode and thinking about the women that were close to Jesus during Holy Week, that it specifically says that they gave to his ministry. And I've never noticed that before. Just, it's not that we're making something up that's new. It's not that we're trying to quote unquote overthrow the patriarchy. It's just paying attention to things that have always been in the Bible that we've been missing. So I can't remember, maybe Lois, you remember the gal or a couple of gals who gave to Jesus's like ministry, but perpetuated. Joanna, Joanna was one of the women who financially supported Jesus' ministry with her possessions, which is what mostly that they did, you know, back then. And so that was a beautiful thing. And then, you know, you had Jesus' core disciples and those following after him, who I believe continued to perpetuate that healthy, you know, they had, you had helpers, you had women deaconesses, you had all of these women who were ministering. You had even, you had even, you had even Timothy, you know, who was, who was Paul's protege. But before he was Paul's protege, he was raised in a Christian home by his grandmother and his mother. So this is not a new thing. It's just that over the years, man-made rules continued to change. I don't know, change the rules, you know, and, and it's not what God intended originally. And change the rules on how to access God, because that's what legalism is, is changing the rules on God's not happy with you unless you're doing our list. We are not happy with you. Another definition of legalism is, well, God accepts you by grace, but we're going to accept you by your works. And we'll decide whether or not you're sanctified. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So they're there, guys, the women, they're studying. And, and, and here's the thing. The sad thing is that there are certain denominations. I mean, this is, this is, this crosses denominational barriers, this whole topic. This isn't just IFB. This is others. But I mean, it is really, really bad in certain sections of the IFB. You know, we try to mention not broad brushing. But there are some certain sections of the IFB that this is, it is just so wrong and so abusive and so ridiculous that it's almost not worth addressing those people. But across denominationally, women who have start, who have been writing books for years or this or that are considered, oh, well, she's a false teacher because she's, you know, she spoke at that church on a Sunday morning. So then she's labeled a false teacher or, you know, it, anyway, I follow somebody on Twitter. She's called the sassy seminary student. And, you know, like you said, John, the, the look was, wait, there's a girl talking in class. And she has a question that she wants to, you know, maybe have some banter back and forth with the professor. Well, she's out of line. Where does that thought process come from? So somewhere we've got to stop it. We have to stop this continual perpetuation of your voice cannot be heard. And somehow I have a stronger connection to God than you do. Even in the SBC that, you know, I'm sorry, wait, don't, you know, when I was in the SBC for years, wait, Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong, it's okay to take offerings for them, but don't let them speak at your church on a Sunday morning on Mother's Day because that would make them a false teacher. Yeah. Yeah. I was listening to Julie Roy's podcast and she was talking with somebody who I've actually listened to a lot of her stuff and counseling training, Diane Landberg. Landberg, yes. She's amazing. Yes. And, and she's very well respected in the biblical counseling field that, that I'm, you know, getting certified in. And, and one of the things, it was sort of a different topic, but I think it, it, it relates. I took heart to it because I tend to be, you know, I've told many people, I said, I'm probably one of the most narrow conservative people that you'll, you'll meet. But one thing that I have learned is that we can learn from people that we disagree with. And just because we disagree with them doesn't mean that we completely shut them out and shut them down. And one of the things that she said in there about how people were just, especially on the internet and social media, just attacking this previous guest that she had on there. And already knowing the situation was, and the wisdom that Diane has, she doesn't just, I mean, this is somebody that's not just, you know, giving her opinion. And this is somebody who really has had a lifetime of experience dealing with walking hand in hand with people through struggles and, and situations. And she said, she said, you know, whether they're right or they're wrong, what you see is a lack of humility. I think in areas of, of how women should be used, whether your position is this or this, I think that the thing that troubles me sometimes is the lack of humility that people display. Display, especially on social media with babies positions that they disagree with. Yeah. Yeah. Because we like our echo chambers, right, James? That's right. We like to, we like to, to stay in the echo chamber where everybody we talk to agrees with us. And we've got our, you know, we've got our good club going here and we don't have to deal with anybody else's stuff. That's good. I really feel like the last two questions are irrelevant now. Well, I think the last question we could ask, I think the next, the sixth one we've sort of already hit, but the last one is what encouragement would you give someone who may be intimidated or unsure about diving deeper into theology? I mean, because I think there needs to be some type of encouragement for, you know, a woman that's out there that maybe has been, you know, ostracized or wasn't caught on in class and they just feel like they couldn't go deeper. I think there needs to be some type of encouragement for them. I think we've already hit number six of why women should study the Bible and know theology. I feel like that I should, that question was even wrongly worded. I mean, why should anybody study theology? Yeah. But specifically women, I think John, John hit the nail on the head when he said, who gives our children the most time and attention? It's our wives. And if they don't know theology, if they don't know the study of God, if they don't know their Bible, how are they going to even teach our children the right way? So I think that question's easy, but last one. I would love to push back on that just a little bit, if you don't mind. Go ahead. Women who do not have physical children, I don't want them to feel isolated from this conversation. I know that's not your intention at all. But women are like half of the church. It's not just our children that we're discipling. You know, you hear some women say any woman is a mother. Everyone has that motherly instinct to nurture and teach and disciple. So all of us need to have personal spirituality and not secondhand spirituality where we're not grabbing it from so-and-so believes this, so now that's what I believe. Because I lived that. That was the echo chamber. These are the approved sources. And I just, like, I'm just fed what I believe. Rather than, it matters because I need to know what I believe for me. And that impacts how I walk out my life. Whether or not I have kids or it impacts the people that I come in contact with. Emily, did you struggle with whenever you sort of, you know, made your exit out of the IFP? Did you struggle at all with whether, like, your desire to dig more and stuff for, you know, should I be doing this? But I really want to. I mean, is it coming out well at all? I mean, do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I think so. I don't think I struggled necessarily with going deeper. But there have definitely been scary things I've studied. I'll just put it bluntly. Like, there are things that I don't want to know. Like, God, if this isn't how it is, then how is it? Because either it opens things up and now I don't have a clue what I believe. And it almost feels like you're left hanging. Or I've even, I'll be perfectly honest. God, if it's this way, I don't want you. Like, this doesn't look good. Where I'm at right now and what I'm believing or what I'm becoming to believe. Like, I don't like the path that this is leading to. And you need to either intercede or I'm out. And I know that sounds kind of drastic. But some of the stuff that we were just handed, it takes a lot of work to unpack. And now I think I can honestly say that I love questions. That doesn't mean that they're not scary. They're still scary questions. But I love asking questions and really digging deeper. And I think one of the ways that we can learn to love questions is by not thinking we have to have the answer right now. God might not show up. God might not bring a resource in right now. And you might be left wondering for a while. But if we really knew everything about who God is, he would cease to be God. So there will be mystery. But there are answers. And it's worth pressing in to the scary, to the unknown, to find that God's character is faithful and true. And find that for yourself. I hear women also say that they don't want to just talk about the peripheral issues. You know, and it is important, I think, because of society, it is important for women, for those that have been marginalized, to understand who they are in Christ. And that they are created. Once we know that our identity is in Christ, then I feel like we can step forward. But some women's ministries stay right there. They don't dig any deeper. Like the one lady said, I don't really want to go to the ladies thing because it's going to be fluff. You know, and, you know, not everybody is domesticated. Not everybody's wired the same. You know, not everybody. You know, it's not like in the spiritual gifts that only men have the gift of teaching or shepherding. And I'm not talking about, I'm not getting into the conversation about women pastors or not women pastors. That's not where I'm going. I'm just saying, true shepherd, the gift of teaching. Men have the gift of teaching, shepherd it. But God didn't regulate, regulate, regulate. Come on. Regulate. God didn't regulate the spiritual gifts between male and female. And okay, here's the list of all the things that guys can choose from or be wired to do once they accept Christ. And here's the list. That's not, that's not how we worked. I love this part in this article that I found. Jesus elicited surprising reactions from his contemporaries in all facets of life. He was not afraid to challenge the status quo and reexamine the traditional way scripture had been interpreted. Those last three words, the way scripture had been interpreted. And unfortunately, we still have people in the pulpit today that are continuing to take scripture out of context, that are continuing to interpret scripture the way that they want it to fit their narrative. And why I get so mad when some of these guys post sermon clips where women are being railed upon or the preacher sitting there saying to the men, oh, you got pretty quiet there. I don't want you getting quiet there because they're talking about an issue regarding females. And then by publicly including women in his ministry, Jesus shattered the prejudicial customs of his day. Why was it unusual for Jesus to speak with women? Nothing in the Mosaic law prevented men and women from conversing with one another. Yet the society of Jesus day with custom dictated by rabbinic Judaism differed strikingly from the Old Testament social order. And then I will just say this one more thing from this article. The first proclaimer of Jesus as the Messiah of Israel was a woman. It was women who stayed with him at his execution. And it was women who were the first to proclaim his resurrection. And I'm not trying to say, yeah, girls, and we're like, you know, I'm just saying there is a balance. And in some denominations, that balance has been so thwarted for years that I believe there are some women still sitting in some of those churches that don't realize that while all of the disciples were hiding, the women had come to the grave. The women had found him risen. And then the women went running and said, hey, guys, Jesus is risen. To me, that's just another example of what Jesus was doing when he said, anyone comes to me. Anyone can learn from me. And anyway. I want to say two things, John, before you say anything or asking more questions. I hope someone takes that. I hope someone takes that soundbite and says that Lois is telling people, women to be undomesticated people. I think that would be a great soundbite. If anyone in our world wants to grab that and take it, I think it'd be good. I'm not talking like domesticated versus being a wild woman. I'm just saying some women are more wired for certain things than other things. And I think Proverbs 31 has been twisted so many times that women think that they have to be everything and sew their own clothing. And, you know, the best casseroles in the world. And, you know. I got to throw out a great recommendation right here. My wife recently led a small group at our church by Elise Fitzpatrick called Good News for Weary Women. And I thought this was going to be like something that would be encouraging for like the housewives and the homeschool moms in our church. And like I was like and so Mary was like, will you just listen to it first to make sure there's nothing like wrong theologically before I get up there in front of people? I was like, OK, so I'm watching these lessons by Elise Fitzpatrick at home. And I'm sitting here thinking, holy cow, she's like totally dismantling legalism at every turn. And she she mentioned this. She said that I thought was fantastic. That's very applicable to what we're talking about. She said, said, have you noticed that when you go to your local Bible book store or Lifeway Christian store, said the only resources that are for women are from Proverbs 31 or Titus 2. As if that's the only place the Bible speaks to women. Yeah. And she's like, the last thing we need anymore is to stop acting like they're thinking that we have to be this Proverbs 31 woman who's perfect. That is so good. That is so good. You know, Kay Arthur back in the 70s when Kay Arthur and her husband began preset ministries, her testimony is phenomenal of how God rescued her. And she began to teach women how to study the word of God for themselves and inductive Bible study and and all of that. She she was. Just talked about. Horribly and that she's trying to do this and that. And yet here we are this many years later and women are still diving in and studying scripture without it being chewed on and then handed to them. And those are very important things. So I don't know. That's just my I I just kind of jumped in there and said. I highly recommend. I highly recommend Jen Wilkins book on women of the word, too, which is a fantastic resource. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm learning how to study and interpret the Bible. Fantastic. There's another book that I somebody gave me a long time ago and I only read a portion of it, but it was good. And it said. Living. I think living like Mary in a Martha world. I've seen that one. Yeah. James, we just like you got to say one thing and then we just all jumped in. You're good. He started it, though. It's his fault. Well, he started it because he felt like his wife was too domesticated because she came and she said, John, I need you to look over this when really she should have just looked over herself. That's probably what it was. I am not touching that one. Mary, you don't listen to that podcast. So. OK, can I just put a precursor? I know how to vacuum. I know how to do laundry. I know how to wash dishes. It's just not my favorite thing. I'd rather be in the yard mowing, weed eating, edging. And so my husband and I have had many conversations about that over the years. And he still loves me. Confession time. I, I, I, on weekends when I'm not at work, I do most of the dishes and cleaning it. And my wife works her garden and stays outside because she loves that. That's like therapy to her. And I hate getting eaten by bugs. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole. I think we've said this so many times in our podcast, like we could go down a whole nother rabbit trail right there or a whole nother podcast in that one. You know. Anyway. That's good. The only other thing I wanted to say as you were talking, you know, I do order a lot of stuff from Lifeway for their curriculum and stuff. And I am impressed with the amount of good quality women stuff out there. I really love the Priscilla Shire stuff. I probably. Say that again. Say that again. Yeah. Here. Let us help you, James. Yes. Y'all help me. Priscilla Shire. There you go. Priscilla Shire is fire. She's awesome. I'm just telling you. I have loved her stuff. She's awesome. And I have seen her torn apart on Twitter from Theo bros and other other people or women that think that she has no place to teach him. Like you cannot grow up in Tony Evans household and in Tony Evans church as his daughter and not be fire when it comes to the word of God. Yeah. You know, there's just no way. I have enjoyed her stuff, teaching it to our young people and using it in our women's small groups and stuff. It's been great. That's awesome. So, can I turn the tables? Yeah. Jesus does that. Let me ask you guys. Sorry. Sorry. You're embarrassing me in front of the guests, James. Sorry. Man, James, he didn't turn them. He flipped those. Come on. He made a whip and went crazy. You know, I mean, most of the time when he got angry, it was because of the legalistic Pharisees. We all know that. Come on. Go ahead. Flip the tables. So, my question is to you guys. Okay. As you've been growing and stepping away from things, as pastors, how do you think, moving forward, that you should help the women in your churches realize that what they've been taught for years, that a woman's place is over here, how can you encourage them to dive into the study of God, which is what theology is, on their own, and facilitate more than just a recipe swap at your church? James, do you want to go first? I'll go first since I'm just the associate pastor. You're the senior pastor. You're the big shot. Know your role. That's right. For me personally, I'm not able to do as much right now as I could. But in this moment of intern, interim ship that we're in, I've empowered my wife a lot to, she's went through a book study already with our women theologically, and she's been trying to grow, because our women in our church was a lot of, you know, they're volunteering, they're helping, they're cooking, they're cleaning, and they would meet once a month and go through some missionary something, I don't know. But now, she's really, in the last couple of months, turned that on its head and said, hey, let's start going through a book together. I think she went through, it's a most, it's a very recent book that just came out, something about when your world's falling apart, or it's been out for a couple years, I can't remember the name of it. Is it, is it a Lisa Turkhurst book? Yes, yes. But I can't remember the name of it. Yeah, that she's had two recently. Yeah. That she's written and told her story about her marriage and... It's not supposed to be this way? Yeah, it's not supposed to be this way. It's not supposed to be this way, that's correct. It's one of them, and then there was another one that came out more recently. Yeah, that's the one that she went through. And so it's been great for us. And even since I came to this church, our women in our church are very much involved in teaching at all levels. We've got women teaching a married couples class, which is unheard of, that women should be teaching in front of men. And we still have some pushback in our church. I'm not going to lie. We have some men that say, I'm not going to go in there. And so it's just trying to bridge that gap a little bit. But even for me, and my wife struggles with this a lot, and I try to help her. I don't push her if she doesn't want to. But she struggles even teaching in front of the high school men, the boys. Because in her mind, she's like, I don't feel like I should be teaching them because of the way she was raised. So I try to give her the... I don't want to push her where she's not comfortable. But at the same time, I tell her, there are things that you need to say that they need to hear from a woman that I can't give them if I'm teaching them. And so that's sort of in our area. And I have other women that teach in all areas of our... for me specifically, youth. And I don't try to limit just girls and guys teaching each other. There is a time and a place for that. But I've definitely encouraged that more and more in the area that I'm at. So John, our theological counseling senior pastor here, what's your good advice to give us? I don't know. I think that I've tried to put it... Over the years, I've tried to practice first and foremost with my relationship with my wife and just get the hearing from her. And many times, it was sort of trying to get her to take the initiative of like, you know, she was very much comfortable in that space of, you know, I'm supposed to be quiet. Let me be quiet. And, you know, I recognize too, that's her personality. And I don't want to like, you know, push her out of that personality. But at the same time, you know, getting her to see it's okay. And watching her as she's grown over the past years has been amazing too. And the only other thing, and I don't think I have the answer for it, but I think that what I've tried to do since I've become a senior pastor is preach it from the pulpit in front of men and women. And what I mean by that is, so I started a series going verse by verse through the book of Judges. And when you do that, you have to cover the story that's in front of you. And when we got to Judges 4, I think, 4 and 5, we covered the story with Deborah. And then, you know, getting into, and at the end of the chapter, Jail or Jail. And, you know, so my application for that sermon was, you know, women are definitely used by God. You cannot escape it. So I went through, you know, cross-referencing all the different times that Old Testament, New Testament, where that was, you know, placed. And I wanted to make sure that the men heard as well as the ladies that, you know, if they ever think that there's not a place for them to, to serve or be used or, or, or serve God in the church or, you know, whatever, whatever it was in whatever capacity, then they're mistaken. And I want, I never want to be one that squashes that, but I'll, but encourages that. But again, I'm, I'm still learning. I don't, you know, that's why we had you guys on so you could fix that. Come on. I'm still learning it. I'm still learning what it means to use my voice and take up space to use more liberal terms, but yeah, it's a healing process for sure. And I appreciate men. I did. I appreciate men though. It's a big deal for men to advocate for women teaching and taking up space. We need more of it. So thank you. I, um, I want to say this, that not every, not every woman is called to teach. Not every woman is called to lead study. We are all called differently. Not every man is called to teach. So this isn't necessarily that we, the best place for us to be is for us to be walking in what God has gifted us to do and what he's called us to do. That's the best place for us to be. Um, and so this isn't a, a push for this or that it's just, um, I think Emily hit it earlier when she said secondhand spirituality. Um, and you guys mentioned Gothard. I didn't grow up listening, you know, to them, but I've ministered to people who did listen to them and listened to him strongly and, um, and also sat with them and held their hand when their hand when their kids were just bucking it big time and running away or their world was falling apart because it's not biblical is not healthy. You know, we could get, I could get out on a rant about that, but I'm not going to, but, um, um, I love that when Jesus came, he tried to reset the narrative that had been being thwarted for years. And I think, um, godly men and women need to continue the reset so that, um, everybody is walking in their gifting and what they're supposed to be doing. Good. Uh, one thing you said, I want to touch on because you say some great things and I do appreciate that. Uh, you said that not all men are called to teach or preach or whatever. And did, I don't know if you know this, but there's a whole Twitter, Facebook, um, YouTube page that's, uh, developed just to call out the men in that are not called to preach called IFB sermon clips. And, uh, it shows some of their horrible, horrible teaching. Sorry. Seriously. Y'all pray for me because I've really moved into a space right now where I'm just about done with it to where I think these guys need to be start. They need to be removed from pulpits. Yeah. I think a movement needs to be made. I was thinking about the great awakening. The thing that caused the revival in the 1700s between Edwards and Whitfield's preaching was not like, you know, because the culture was wicked and they started seeing that it was these Edwards and Whitfield started, uh, preaching to the men that were in the pulpits and calling out their sin and their unconvertedness. And that was where it started was men like preachers in pulpits actually started getting converted. And I think that's where it's got to start. Yeah. Just this past week, some of this stuff that was posted and I don't always call it out, but there were a couple of clips this week that I, that I responded to and put on Twitter that were just, I don't know if you guys saw those, but they were just so like, I'm not about cancel culture. Okay. I'm not about that. I, I, I think something should be canceled, but I'm not about cancel culture, but I, but I am about when something is just straight up unbiblical. It continues to be perpetrated. It continues to be said and people continue to be, um, wrapped up in it. You know, there's gotta be a call to action. So John, I'm, I'm with you on that. Well, Emily, do you have any, uh, we're going to do closing comments now. So Emily, do you have any closing comments for us today? Yes. What I would say is that your theology matters. And I don't mean that in your theology, but your view of God matters. So dive in, uh, shake it up and learn some things, ask some questions, press in, get a new commentary, get a book, listen to some new worship music, whatever you need to do, shake it up and press into who God is to you personally, because he has made himself available personally, which is an insane gift that the God of creation has made himself accessible to us. And he not only knows us, but he makes himself knowable. Lois closing comments. Um, you know, this is a topic we could probably talk about forever, but people would stop listening at some point if they haven't already stopped at this point, because we weren't really funny a whole lot today. I tried bringing the comic relief, but you know, you can only do so much. Um, I think that continuing to speak truth and love, but continuing to speak the truth that Jesus spoke when he came. Um, I love this statement that Jesus shattered the darkness of society by offering his teachings freely to anyone who would listen, whether they were women or men. And his early followers continued to follow in his footsteps, including women in their gatherings, Acts chapter one, and counting them as fellow workers in the cause of sharing his message. Romans 16, three, it was only fitting that Jesus, the Messiah and his love shattered the restricted status of women in the times in which he lived because of him. All individuals, Jew or Greek slave or free male or female can be one and enjoy unequaled freedom as children of God. And that's from the article that I read from Jews for Jesus. So messianic, it's a messianic article. I don't know. It just, um, we got to get out of the echo chambers guys. And we have to help people get out of the echo chamber because we know what we know and we do what we know to do until we know better than we do better. You know, Maya Angelou said that. And so I think for those of us who are called to speak, teach, podcast, you know, just continue the message. James, closing comments, man, it's been great. I appreciate you women coming on with us. Um, I haven't, I have, I've not been as devoted as John. I haven't listened to all of your episodes. I've listened to about half. I really enjoyed your raw episode that y'all did. Um, I got a lot out of that. And so, uh, it's been great having you going. I've been enjoying it. I've been enjoying this whole series. Uh, just being able to talk to other people from other walks of life and other avenues and hearing where they're from. It's been very much of a blessing for me. So, yeah, we thank, uh, the RFWP for joining us today in this, uh, RFP series crossover event. You guys were wonderful and it was a fun time and a fun conversation. And, uh, I just want to, uh, my closing comments would be, uh, just finished a series on worship and, and John four, Jesus lays out to the woman at the well. The purpose for our salvation is to create worshipers for God. And as Stephen Sharnock has pointed out in his systematic theology, you cannot worship God properly until you worship him as he is known and revealed in scripture. So as it depends upon your worship, know God and study him as he is. And, uh, your life will be all the enriched for it. Thank you guys so much for listening and, uh, continue to, uh, share the podcast and, uh, give us a rate and review. Me and James are going to read our reviews one of these days. We thought that would be fun, but, uh, we'll get around to doing that one of these times. And, uh, and, uh, thanks everybody for listening and until next time to God, not man-made rules, be the glory. Thank you for listening to the for freedom podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, please give a rating, leave a comment, or share it on Facebook or Twitter. To find more helpful resources for your journey through the independent fundamental Baptist world, check out RFP network.org where you can find this podcast and others such as the recovering fundamentals podcast, the RFWP podcast, the young Baptist podcast, the church split, the preacher's kids podcast, the 26 letters podcast, and the RFP in Espanol. God bless. Thank you.

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