33. Part 2 w/ Kyle Kinzer On Pastoral Superiority

And here we go. This is the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement, and to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now, here's your host, John Holyfield. And welcome, everybody, back to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host, John Holyfield. And I'm here with our co-host, the other guy in the other chair across another state, Big James Saferit. And I'm your other host, James. Glad to be with you guys today. I'm actually recording in a hospital, so if my sound is a little off or not as good as it normally is, bear with me. We are, at the time of this recording, 22 hours in with our new baby. And so he's 22 hours old. So we are excited about that. Hopefully we'll be coming home on Wednesday. Everything's looking good and had a good delivery. He's feeding good. And mom's doing well. She's up and walking. And so we are excited about coming home soon. And I know our kids are super excited about seeing the baby and being able to hold him. So just be praying for us. If you're praying people, be praying that we have a good, safe return home and adjusting to a newborn. It's been five years since we've had a newborn. So just be praying for us as we go through that. I know, absolutely. And James is the trooper. He's over there recording from the hospital. And so I appreciate his dedication. And, you know, sometimes I've been there four times already. Sometimes it can be a little bit dry when you're just waiting around the baby sleeping, mama sleeping. But we are so glad that Allie is healthy. Baby Hudson Matthew is healthy. And James is enjoying being the new father again. And, you know, James talked about his recording over there. I think we probably should – I should probably make a big apology to all of our listeners. You've probably – in 32 episodes, you've probably seen the – or heard the back and forth of the quality of our recordings. And I've just got to say it's because I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to editing the podcast and recording. So we're always, like, tweaking, and James is giving me tips and things of what to do. And then he'll give me a tip, and I don't really understand what he's talking about in GarageBand. And so then I mess it up. And so I appreciate everybody's patience just looking over those recording flubs that I have. So I think this – what we're going to do now is we're going to jump into our This Week roundup. All right, a couple of things this week in the world and a couple on the entertainment value. We had the release of the Snyder Cut last week and Falcon and Winter Soldier. What did you think? Was it a good week, James? James? I will go to thetletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletle Thank you. I'm a DC Comics fan. I don't know how you could not like what they put out there. I mean, it was very hats off to DC Comics fans, and it was very well done. You know, it was started by a movement called Release the Snyder Cut, and now, as James sort of mentioned, I don't know what they're going to do, there's now the movement has begun again on hashtag Restore the Snyderverse. And so I hope they do. I'm with you. I hope that they do, because what he would be producing is 10 times better than what they've been doing. Falcon and Winter Soldier, what's your... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The first eight minutes is pretty impactful, pretty action-packed. Yeah, I love the first episode, and I agree with you. That first opening action scene with Falcon is probably the best Falcon action they've ever done. I mean, it was pretty stellar. Yeah. Okay, the other thing that's going on is this past week we've had in the IFB world the Old Paths Conference. The Old Paths Conference. And so... Now, John, how old paths are they going? Well, I think it's about 1970, 1960, basically as old paths as Jack Hiles was. Quite honestly, it's these old paths that they're alluding to are not paths that should be celebrated. They're not paths that we need to go back to. These are paths that need to die a quick death. And I like what James had reminded me before we started, that Eric Skorzynski of the Preacher Boys Podcast made a post about it. And he was dead on. He was dead on. These guys that have enabled pedophiles to cover up sexual abuse to not be platformed on pulpits and held as heroes of the Old Paths. Exactly right. And we need to call that out. I love that Eric's doing that on his podcast. And, you know, we just need to call more attention to it and do our part in this movement of calling for freedom for really abusers and standing on the side of the abused and helping them out. And so, yeah, it's a great thing to be able to do. And we don't know as our freedom, how long we're going to be able to do that. And so while we have the platform, we might as well do it and use it to our advantage. Great word, James. Great word. Now we're going to move over to our IFB sermon archive clip. And we've left the Tony Hudson message we've been looking. This is another message that I pulled out of my sermon archive that I used to listen to a lot back in my IFB days. And I want to give a forewarning for this. Some may not like that we're going to play a sermon clips from a message preached by Jack Skopp. I understand why they would not like that. A couple of reasons why we're going to do it. Number one, this podcast has evolved since we started it. It still has the same mission. We want to bring the message of freedom that the Scriptures teach and growing in grace to those that's been affected by legalism and abuse. But it's also part of mine and James' journey as well. And part of growing in our journey is the fact of recognizing the things that influenced us. And the fact of the matter is this message did have an impact on us. And it did exist. And Jack Skopp was a major leader in this movement for many, many years. And there were those that allowed him to say things that never went checked. And I think that there's some reason for that. And so this is going to be from a sermon that was preached in 2001, about six months after the death of Jack Hiles and after Skopp took over, called I Sure Do Miss You, Brother Hiles. Here's a clip of the introduction of that message. I think that's my favorite kind of preaching this morning on forgiveness. However, I believe this kind of preaching is very necessary tonight for our church and for our future. It's always important. Brother Hiles used to say frequently, it's important to push the red reset button. And though that is certainly one of my purposes tonight, I'm going to give you my heart a little bit tonight. The title of my sermon is, I Sure Do Miss You, Brother Hiles. I Sure Do Miss You, Brother Hiles. I was leading a group of contest winners many years ago. I had a ministry to state campuses. And at that time, we were soul winning down at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, 115 miles south of here. And we had about 20, 25 men, the college visiting with me. And I had a, I believe it was a spring program, there was a spring or fall program. And we had some contest winners. And I told the men that I would take them on a preaching engagement with me. I was preaching in Elyria, Ohio for Brother Jeff Smale, our graduate from Hiles Anderson. And the town right next to that is Oberlin, Ohio. Oberlin, Ohio is famous in Christian circles because of Oberlin College. And the first church of Oberlin pastored many years ago by Mr. Charles Finney. When I was called to preach, Mr. Charles Finney was the evangelist or the preacher that captivated my mind. He was a very holy man, a very strict man, and a very powerful man. What did you think about that, James? Well, I'm just trying to figure out the chapter and verse for where we're going to have this message go. Right now, I'm hearing a lot of man worship. I'm hearing a lot of Jack Howes, Charles Finney. Nothing in the scripture that I know of that says Jack Howes or Charles Finney. And so that's tough to get through. But it just goes to show what we were so indoctrinated in is to look at a man and worship a man. You know, when we were in college, we did the same thing. And I remember even while we were in, started out in Bible college, we were talking about your dad and how he looked at his former professor, college president, the same way we looked at our president and how we thought he couldn't do any wrong. And when failures happened, he said it didn't happen. It couldn't happen. I don't believe it. And so many times we get caught in that man-worshiping attitude when we need to really go to Hebrews 12, where it says, looking unto Jesus. And stop getting our eyes off of man and start getting it onto God and onto Jesus. That's really good. That's really good. At the beginning of the message, the way that they did things there at First Baptist, they always had a guy read the passage of scripture that they're going to preach from. And they read a psalm. I think it was like Psalm 118, or they read some kind of psalm. And he gets up there afterwards, and he says, like, one thing about the psalm. This is the psalm we read, and then goes into what he was talking about. He talks about, I mean, just the fact of having an entire message dedicated to, I'm missing the previous pastor. Miss you, Brother House. And it gets even more egregious as it gets into it. But then he namesdrop a guy named Jeff Smale, who's a regular on IFP sermon clips. And also, he mentions Charles Finney. And in IFP history books, Charles Finney is mentioned in the same ranks as George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, and credited as the leader of the Second Great Awakening in America. And the problem with that is, is that the truth about Charles Finney, which Scop looks up to him, said that he looked up to him, and that he described him as a very strict man and a very powerful man. Interesting that those are the characteristics that Scop pointed out. But Finney was not—there's many that studied the life of Finney, do not believe he was an actual believer. And he really strayed from Orthodox theology and taught—and did not teach justification by faith alone. He thought that you had to contribute something to your salvation, which is why he believed that you could manipulate people, and you had—he taught tactics on how to get people down the aisle, because if you could just convince them of this certain thing, then they will come, and then they will do their part, and God will do his part. And so, Finney is not somebody that we should be looking up to to begin with. But we'll continue with more clips as the weeks go on from that message, and just show some areas where we're recovering from things that we have been taught as well. And so at this point, we're going to go into our main part of the episode, and this is a continuation from last week's with Kyle Kinzer. And James, why don't you go ahead and introduce sort of what we're going to be speaking about in this episode? Yeah, it was great to sit down with Kyle last week. And Kyle, like I said, he's a good buddy of mine from college. And we were able to get his story last week, which was really encouraging. A lot of people have reached out and have said how encouraging that was. And it's good to hear other people's stories so that we don't feel like we're an island. Too many times when we go through this process, like we mentioned with the King James Bible issue, we feel like we're by ourselves. And by being able to hear other stories about it, man, I really, I went through that same struggle. I'm reading a book right now. I just got the one that we talked about, Refresh. And it's that second part of that reset book. And just listening to Shonda Murray, which is the author, write her story out and give her side of going through depression and going through thoughts. I'm even in myself going, man, I can relate to that. I can remember that moment in my life. And so it's good to hear that. We're going to have some more of those coming up in the future. We've been sending out some fillers to some people. And so we're hoping that's encouraging you. But the second part of this interview, we go into pastoral authority, what it means, why has it been abused, and how we can avoid this pastoral authority from a biblical worldview. And so at this time, we'll go ahead and continue on with our interview with Kyle. No, Kyle, I think that you're on to something there. And I think that it has a lot to do with what we were just describing about ourselves. And I think that a lot of these guys that wrap, they end up wrapping their identity into their ministry and to their ministry identity. And I think that that does elude itself or connect itself to building a larger pastoral authority in some instances. I do think that there's a lot more other aspects to it and some abusive aspects to it. But I think that that is a factor in itself. And so this is a great part for us to go into our discussion of pastoral authority. And I like how James puts it. James gave me this several months ago. And he calls it pastoral superiority. And to get you to understand what sort of the tone of the discussion here, we have a couple of clips that we want to define this. Let them define it with their own mouths. So, James, you go ahead with our clips now. So I don't like that. It's called biblical authority. So they paint the man as a jerk. You see how I said that, you know, there's some of you who say, that's a jerk way of saying it. Yeah, you didn't like it, did you? That's because you don't like authority. Those that criticize this kind of preaching, they don't like authority. Amen. That's why they criticize the old-time preachers like Dr. Hiles. Because he preached with authority. So they attack his, well, you know, topical preacher. You know what? Shut up. Yeah. They don't like authority. They don't like someone like a Bob Gray who get up and just, the old Bob Gray, when he pastored, hog killing revival. Y'all ever heard that? Man, that sermon, I cut my teeth on that. Good night. Grew big buck teeth because of that, you know, but I'm telling you, I loved it. John, could you imagine sitting in that service and a pastor just yelling, shut up? At his tone? My goodness. That's your response to anybody that has a question. Just shut up. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. That's Reeves, right? Yeah. And my thing is, like, what about you? Do you like authority? Yeah. Think about your church members when you're talking about authority and the authority that biblically you have over them, how they're going to respond to you if this is how you want them to respond to biblical authority. Not just that, but pastors act like they don't have to answer to anybody, which is why there's been so much scandal. I mean, think about Scott. He had nobody to answer to. But that's not true. Pastors don't just answer to God. Pastors are human beings that need accountability, that need authority in their life just like anybody else. Oh, dude, dude, dude. I've got to share this before I lose it because it will go in my brain and, like, completely eliminate it. Sorry, James. I was watching. This is going to be so unspiritual, but I think it's really good. I was watching Batman v Superman the other night. I know you guys have already lost half the audience. No, but stay with me here. The actor Jesse Eisenberg, who plays Lex Luthor, makes this statement that, like, floored me in our, you know, what we cover a lot with these things. And he tells us, I don't know if you remember this scene, but he's talking to this senator, and he says, you know what the oldest lie in America is, Senator? And she says what? This is what he says, that power can be innocent. And I was like, dang. Yeah. There may be something to that one. Yeah, exactly. All right, John, let's play the second clip and let our people hear. This is Jack Treber. Oh, my goodness. At a Golden State. He's in the headlines a little bit right now. If you're following anything that's going on, we mentioned the camp meeting last week that was going on and just a bunch of babies in the sandbox yelling at why everybody left the sandbox, as John affectionately put it. But this is him talking about authority and leadership. There will be 10,000, 10,000 splits, church splits in America in 2010. In 2009, there were 10,000 splits in churches in America. It's a dangerous thing to pull sides and stand against the anointed of God. But he's out of control. Now, wait a minute. God is working on you. While he's going to handle this guy over here. David is in what location is David in? Where is he at right now? Now, what? He's in a cave. God is using the cave experience in his life. God is interested in building David as he follows in submission to a leader that has lost control of his life. Notice what the Bible says in chapter number 26, please. Chapter 26 and verse number nine. And David said to Abishai, and here's the second time he's going to spare Saul. And Saul was sleeping. Remember, verse number seven. And a spear was stuck in the ground in his bolster. And do you know that this time they took that. And David said to Abishai, destroy him not. For who can stretch forth his hand against the Lord's? What? Anointed and be guiltless. Verse 11. The Lord forbid that I should stretch forth my hand against the Lord's. There it is again. Anointed. My set apart one. The consecrated. But I pray thee, I ask you to take now the spear that is at his bolster and the cruise of water and let us go. And David took the spear and the cruise of water and Saul's bolster. And they got them away. And no man saw it or knew it, neither awake. For they were all asleep because of deep sleep from the Lord. God, hear me. That's crazy. Absolutely crazy. Crazy. Like, so, he's saying he's an anointed one of God. He's consecrated. We don't, these guys are consecrated, set apart of God. We're not to, if he's got it, he's out of control, then we just need to check ourselves. Just let him keep going. So this comes from this 1 Samuel teaching of the story of Saul and David. Touch not God's anointed theology. Why is this wrong? Well, for one, pastors are not kings. And for two, like, I can't even think of a two right now. I know some of the ridiculousness instead in that clip just sort of throws you for a loop a little bit. You're exactly right. Pastors are not kings. They're shepherds. There is a very stout difference between the setting up of an Old Testament monarch and the institution of the New Testament shepherd after the life of Christ and the institution of the church. And to correlate those two really displays such a biblical ineptness that proves that you have no business being in front of people with an open Bible. Oh, yeah. You're right. It's like, for one, you know, in the circles we grew up in, it's like, oh, what is God calling you to do? What is God calling you to do? I've got the call of God on my life. And, yes, God has specific calls and purposes for us and spiritual gifts that he gives us. But in God's Word, it says, if any man desires the office of an overseer, or as King Jimmy says, bishop, which I think it's funny that why don't independent Baptists, why don't they refer, if they love the pure English words of the King James, you don't really find that title pastor, bishop. Why don't we call them bishops if they really like that? Yeah. I've always wondered that. But anyways, but. I just like how you said King Jimmy. King Jimmy. Yeah. Sorry, we digress. Yeah. It's just, it's a desire. I mean, God puts that desire in your heart. It's not like you're, you got the prophet Samuel coming to your house, pouring oil over your head, saying, this is, you're consecrated and set apart for me. That's, that's not it. You have a desire to, to pastor and to oversee the flock of God. And based on New Testament theology of the believer, who is set apart? Every Christian, every Christian that it comes to Christ is initially set apart. And I, when you, when you read and think of this touch, not God's anointed theology, I really feel like it's more of such a prideful theology. It busts, it boasts up the man of God, that term man of God that, you know, I don't even like using and I don't like the reference of it, but this, you are so much higher and greater. And yes, do I believe there is a special office of a pastor? Exactly. I do. But for you to stand up and say, you can't touch me. I am your ultimate authority. No, the word of God is the ultimate authority. We're just, and I said this the other day and I read this the other day. We are not the editor in chief. And I think this was on the Young Baptist Pastors podcast. It said, we are not the editor in chief. We are just simply the delivery boy. Yeah. That's all we are. We're not writing anything new. Brian Sam said that. Yeah. Yeah. Brian Sam's from, yeah, it was great. He said, we're just the delivery boy. We have been entitled to have the message and go and give it to people. Nothing more. Wow. And that, when we think of like that, it humbles us. Oh yeah. Because we're not thinking of anything great or new. We're just simply delivering what God has given us to help one person out. Just one beggar helping another beggar get a little bit of bread as the great, what's his name? I forgot his name. Mark Lowry said. Okay. Just one beggar helping another beggar. Man, that should humble us. That should keep us humble in the pastorate because that's exactly what we are. We're just delivery boys. Yeah. I mean, doesn't the Bible, I mean, is it in 1 Peter 5 where the Bible says that we're examples to be examples of the flock? King James in samples, whatever the end sample is, but an example of the flock. We're to lead by an example, not just of things that we say and preach, but we're to live humbly showing people what it's like to live a gospel-centered life. Yeah. And as you said that, I went ahead and flipped the 1 Peter 5. And listen to this in verse 3. Not domineering over those in your charge, but being the examples to the flock. Man, that first part of that, not being domineering. How many people did that just disqualify? Well, we're just going to look at the last part, just be an example. Follow me. Don't worry about the domineering. I'm going to have dominion over you is what it's saying. And when the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. I mean, that's powerful stuff, not domineering over them. Okay. So what we like to do here is we like to show, we like to disprove or debunk one side, but we don't want to leave it there. We want to show what we believe the Bible to teach on the aspect. So before we get to that, here's one question. Is pastoral authority or pastoral superiority biblical? Absolutely not. No, no, it's not. And so then we want to spend the remainder of our time today, and I think this will be edifying. I think this will be good of what the biblical pattern is for, let's, we've been using the word pastors for pastors. But Kyle's already mentioned that pastor, I think, is only mentioned in the New Testament. I think it's mentioned in Ephesians 4 as pastors and mentioned in 1 Peter. The rest of the terms used for the leader, the overseer, is used as bishop, elder, and different terms like that. So we want to look at that biblically for the remainder of time. Before, I just wanted to, like, when James was talking about the superiority, and one thing that really, I think, hurts in that thinking, like, I'm a man of God. I'm better than you, and I'm just rich. I don't know if you guys felt this or not, but, like, when I was in Bible college and you see these preachers come in, I'd be like, man, there's no way. There's no way I'll ever be that good. I mean, I felt like, man, like, there's no way I'll, I'll, I mean, because I'm like, man, I'm, I struggle with stuff. You know, I, I, so I'm like, how am I ever going to attain to that level of spirituality? I don't know if you guys ever struggle with that, but, but one thing that is crazy to me about this pastoral superiority is, is, is that in IFB, when do you ever hear a pastor say that he struggles with anything? Not very much at all. I don't know if I've ever heard it. Unless it's the communism soccer that we talked about last week. What about you, John? Have you ever heard, like, an independent Baptist preacher, you say that he struggles with anything? With anything. It is rare. It's rare. It's rare. And, you know, the transparency is, is huge. I take that from, from the counseling room. I mean, you know, a lot of what biblical counseling is, is just discipleship. And what is discipleship? It's, it's one believer trying to help another believer grow in their sanctification. And what do you do with that? You share life together. How do you share life together without showing some of your own scars, some of your own weaknesses? And, you know, in, in, in our own weaknesses where God has made strong. And so I think that, I don't know if it's, if it's a, if it's a human thing, if it's a flesh thing, if it's, if it's an American thing. But we, we tend to value strength and, and, you know, we tend to value strengths like so much that to show any type of, or display any type of vulnerability or, or weakness is just unheard of. You can't do that. You automatically lose respect. And I just, I don't see that in the Bible. I mean, look at the Beatitudes. What do the Beatitudes teach us? I mean, humble, meekness. Yeah. I think you're honest, Kyle. Yeah. I mean, I, and another thing too, like you rarely hear them apologize. It's not just admitting that they're struggling, but what about just saying that you were wrong? Hey, guess what church? This was a bad decision. I don't know if I ever heard that, you know, like it, even whether it's a financial decision or what, just a pastor getting up and saying, Hey guys, you know what? I'm sorry. This was not the right thing. And I apologize for that. Yeah. John, when we were in college, Tony Hudson came in and he preached. And he said that when he was at Liberty University with, um, guy Penrod long hair got wrote up for, uh, he got wrote up for having his hair too long by guy Penrod. Ironic. He said that he dropped out after one semester because daddy they're teaching me apologetics and daddy, I'm not going to apologize for nothing. Yeah. I'm not going to apologize. You know, that's, that's what we were taught and preached. I still don't think he ever has. Uh, and I don't know if he really understands the definition of apologetics either, but yeah. And to like, isn't that the basic tentative salvation? Like admitting that you're wrong. Yeah. I mean, how do you, I mean, how do you, you were wrong one time. Is that what you, when you got saved, you were wrong. Is that what happens? Yeah. Salvation takes away all that, all that wrongdoing. Yeah. But, uh, you know, even when your wife's right, according to, uh, uh, uh, Oh, Cody there, even when your wife's right, you know, you're still right. You don't have to even say that you're wrong. Then Cody's orange. Oh, yes. Yes. Oh yeah. Well, John, let's look at the biblical pattern here. We've talked a little bit about the function of biblical pastoral authority. Uh, we've debunked it. Uh, what are some of the qualifications of an elder? We've, we, we see this in two times. Um, we, we use these passages a lot during ordination and that's really the last time. And the only time that I've ever heard them talked about is during ordination. Your first Timothy three, one through seven and your Titus one, six through nine. Uh, I'll read this quote by Tony Evans as you turn there. Hold on. I don't think we've got the function. Did we? I don't know. That's all right. This is, this is, this is a, uh, a glimpse, a behind the scenes glimpse you're getting guys. Um, so let me, let me, let me, let me run through this. Give me, give me two minutes and I will get back to qualification because I think that this is important. I mentioned what I did mention was the terms. I think that, uh, it's, it's pretty much understood that the term pastor, elder, bishop, shepherd, these are four terms used in the new Testament, all really referring their, their, uh, underlying Greek words are presbyteros, episkopos, poimen. They're all sort of referring to the same office. This is the person that we know today in our American, uh, evangelicalism as the pastor. And there's plenty of scripture on this. Um, what is the function though? What is the function of this? So the function of the elder was, was the overseer of the church. They were the shepherd of the church. Now, um, some will disagree with me on this and that's okay, but, uh, I do not hold to a Presbyterian view of eldership. Uh, but I do hold to a view of plurality of elders. Um, I don't hold to a view where congregation has zero involvement. Uh, but I do disagree with the, the point of view that the congregation has authority. Um, let me explain it this way. The Bible clearly teaches congregational involvement, but not congregational government in which the church body at large has the final authority. And, uh, I believe that when you go to passages like Matthew 18 passages, like, uh, keeping the elder accountable and one to two, three witnesses, which I think is in first Timothy three. And then if they are caught in a fault and you bring it before, uh, the congregation, I believe that's congregational involvement. I don't necessarily believe that's authority. The, the passage that I think that, uh, uh, you neglect on that is Hebrews 13, seven. And some may say, well, how do we keep this from being a dictatorial thing? I think two avenues keep this from this, this type of church, uh, government or church rule, uh, from being a dictatorial and abusive form by two areas. And they both are following the biblical pattern. Number one is that the elders, the ruling body of the church is supposed to be a plurality of elders, not one pastor. It's supposed to be multiples. There's supposed to be more than one that hold each other accountable. And the other one is the qualifications. So, uh, so you have to have more than one guy here. You have to have somebody that checks and balances this whole single pastoral authority. We're going to get into an episode on cults and cult-like, uh, behavior in the IFB. But to me, the one single thing that can turn an IFB congregation into a cult quicker than anything is the sole rule of one man. Yeah. And so the other aspect, the other aspect that gets us to that, and this is where we were coming back, James, to, to what we were getting into is this area of qualifications. Because when you have, and this is where, this is why I hold to this position, because when you have a group of men or more than one guy, uh, several other, uh, men in the church that are qualified to these qualifications and they're upheld and they're held accountable to these qualifications, then you can trust the church leadership. So let's look, let's spend the remainder of our time. I think this is going to be fun. Let's spend the remainder of our time looking at these qualifications. All right, let's do it. Let's jump into it. Um, 1 Timothy 3, 1 through 7, Titus 1, 6 through 9. I'm there at 1 Timothy. And so I'll read it. And Kyle, if you want to read the Titus, just so we get a broad overview of it. Um, so everyone can hear the passage read. And so 1 Timothy 1, 3 through 7, it says, As I urge you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than stewardship from God that is by faith. Speculations. How many times have we heard speculations? The aim that our charge is to love that issue from a pure heart and of a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons by swerving from these have swavering from these have wandered away in vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. That's not the right passage. You did talk about leadership, but I think you were, I think you, Oh, I read 1 Timothy 1. We'll edit that back, John. Okay. I had it open up to three and I don't know why I went back to chapter one. All right. I'm sorry. This one's not for two weeks. So you got plenty of time. That's true. Thank you for that. The first one, you just got to make sure like that's important. How big is yours? That's right. How big is yours? All right. 1 Timothy. Three, one through seven says the saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to be the office of an overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach. The husband of one wife, sober minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household. Well, with all dignity, keeping his children submissive. For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he then care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace, into the snare of the devil. Awesome. You read the Titus passage? Yeah. All right. Titus 1.6. I'm reading out of the NASB. It says, Wicked. For this reason I left you in Crete that you would set in order the remains. Verse 6. I'm sorry. If any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion, for the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word, which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. Okay. So we're going to take those two passages, and we have a list that we've compiled together of basically just simplifying that list of qualifications, and we're going to hit these. I think there's 13 of them. 13 qualifications. 15. 15 qualifications here of a pastor. Okay. So let's look at this and see how many of our IFB pastors are disqualified. No, we probably shouldn't do that. We're going to look at these things. And check this out. So the first one, we'll just take turns here. I'll start with the first one, blameless. He is supposed to be a man of unquestionable character. What does it mean to be above reproach? It does not mean that a man has to be perfect. If so, we would all be disqualified, right? It means there must not be any great blot on his life that others might point to. Any character blight on a church leader's life that tells others a person can live in sin and still be a spiritual leader disqualifies that leader. How does a spiritual leader protect himself from the onslaught of Satan? The answer is threefold. Scripture, prayer, and fellowship. One more aspect before we leave the thing of blameless, too, is that the interesting thing about the list is that they start with the above reproach. They start with the blamelessness. Meaning that every little qualification that comes after it refers back to being blameless and that specific issue. So as the other guys go through the list and you hear he's supposed to be vigilant, he's supposed to be temporary, he's supposed to be prudent, he's supposed to be not a brawler or something like that. He's supposed to be blameless in those areas. Not just he's not supposed to be doing it. Because quite honestly, guys, isn't this list of qualifications for an elder just really the list of what a Christian is supposed to be like? Yeah. Exactly. But what we're saying is that he is supposed to live a life that's blameless in these areas. You say that's too high of a standard. God said it. And we're talking about the oversight of his church. The problem is, is we have way too many men that will not abide by it and way too many churches that tolerate that. Yeah. Let's look at the second one and then we'll let Kyle look at the third one and we'll just rotate through that like that. The next one is a one woman man. And so this is simply stated a sexually pure in those areas. And so this is not referring to his marriage or divorce status. A lot of people read this and they think, well, he's got to be married. He's got to be. This is simply referring to his sexual purity. This is one of the heads of the list because this is the most moral failure. How many times do we turn on the news and we see another pastor falling into sexual immorality? Another pastor having sex with a teenager. Another pastor having sex with his deacon's wife. All of a sudden we hear these stories over and over again because this is where men are going to fail. MacArthur says this, that various interpretations of this qualification have been offered. Some see it as against polygamy where a pastor should only have one wife because polygamy was rolling rampant during this age when Timothy was when when Paul was writing this to Timothy. And so he's a modest saying, hey, listen, you should only have one wife. You should be pure to that wife. You should not be living a life that is impure to that person. Let alone another church leader. Others see this as a requirement as bearing those who are who remarry after the death of their wife. He goes on and on about some other things. But this is simply just stating that we should be sexually pure to the woman that God has given us. Yeah, this one's kind of has some controversy, too, because like there's some, you know, should you be able to pastor if you've been divorced? I mean, that's a big question. And, you know, I think it it's honestly believe it's situational. I believe that you can be blameless and be divorced. But of course, not all situations. I mean, like Ruckman was married, was married and divorced three times. Something's something's not blameless right there. Yeah. But so the third one. Is vigilant, temperate. He's not given to excess. And I'm sure, I mean, this goes to not just this is because being able to live content with what God's given you. And like even like I just recently read an article on gluttony that like tore me to shreds. And I'm like just just being satisfied, not having like it's not just the about eating, but just being able to be satisfied with what you've been given and. And just not living in excess, I believe that's. That's a great it's it's a great thing to point out, because. If you're supposed to be teaching from the word of God to your people, contentment. And in the Americanized capitalistic culture. That is marketed to. To try to get you to want more of everything. Yeah. How are they going to believe you if you don't exercise contentment in your own personal life? I know. You know, so, you know, this is something that I've actually come to. I've actually my wife and I've sat down about this because let me say this. I'm not going to throw out like what our financial income is out there on the podcast. But, you know, I'm bivocational. I work. I work two jobs. Work. The church pays me part time. I work a second job. We're by no means like raking in the dough. So, but I know what it would take for us as a family of six to survive. But one thing that I've also done, and I don't I don't foresee it happening. I don't I don't I don't sit there and expect. Yeah. In a couple of years, we're going to have a church booming so large and they're going to be able to pay me. You know, I'm not saying that, but I've already mentally gone to a financial number of where it would be my limit to where if all of the sudden God blessed a situation to where the you know, we could be bringing in an income that could exceed what we should. I already have a number of where I would cap that off and cut that off. And we've talked about it to where I believe my financial integrity as a shepherd would be in jeopardy if I was making more than this money or this amount. And and that's something that I've already mentally done because I don't want to I take these qualifications very, very seriously. Seriously. Yeah. John, even speaking on that, I just recently finished listening to Mark Dever on nine marks and on paying your pastor and what you should pay your pastor and things like that. And Mark said a great thing. Don't know if I fully agree with everything that was said on there, but he said that as a pastor, he never turns down any type of raise or something from their from their deacons, he said, because that allows me to give more and to do more. And he said, sometimes as a leader, I may take part of my salary to pay an intern or take part of my salary to help mentor a young person where our church doesn't have that vision yet to do that. And so I thought it was it was wise and how he viewed those things. And so those are it was a wise thing. If you're having problems with that, look at that. Listen to that. I felt a really good podcast on on helping paying. Yeah. Mark Dever also spends a lot of his money buying books for his people. I mean, he gives out tons of books. He does. What were you going to say, Kyle? Yeah, I don't think I think it's important to note that, like, it's not saying that a pastor shouldn't be wealthy. Like there's there's nothing wrong with with pastors. I mean, some of these pastors have written books. They've made lots of money with. And that's that's that's not unscriptural. But living in excess is when you when you elevate that to be happy, when you have to have money to be happy and raising money for a new jet. Yeah. Something like that. OK. Or or also, you know, pastors that like you were getting at there, James, like and if you're going to be a wealthy pastor, you should give extravagantly. I mean, I just don't see how and you were talking about earlier, John, one pastor that lived in a six hundred to seven hundred thousand dollar house. I mean, that's that's fine and great. But you should be able to if you're if you are going to live extravagantly, you ought to be able to give extravagantly as well and enjoy those. Not just enjoy the blessings, but also let yourself be a blessing. John, go ahead with the next one. We're going to probably take about three hours to go through these if we stay at this pace. All right. So the next one is sober and prudent. This means that he is supposed to be self disciplined. And we could yeah, we could go crazy with that one about, you know, how many guys would would not characterize being self disciplined. And but, you know, instead of instead of going that route, which I think we can on other aspects, I just say, look introspectively at myself. You know, am I practicing self discipline in areas? And I try to do that. I try to grab certain things here and there from time to time to to work on my self discipline, whether it's with a certain diet or it's certain food or it's it's a certain entertainment choice or a certain thing like that. But number five, James, good behavior and respectable. Simply put, this is to be organized or have an orderly life. Think about it like this, guys. If if you are the pastor and you are leading and giving order to the church and you don't have order in your own life, do you think the church is going to be orderly or disorderly? And we mentioned this a little bit later when it comes to kids and families. But if you have a somewhat organized life, then your church is going to have that same mindset of having order and having direction because you yourself are ordered and organized. Kyle, let's go to this next one. Given to hospitality, hospitable. He loves strangers. Now, I love this one. I'm glad it felt on me because I recently heard I love to listen to J.D. Greer. I don't know if you guys do or not, but he's really helped me in my walk. But he says there's a difference between fellowship and hospitality. Like we think when we're together together with fellow believers, that's fellowship. Hospitality is when you reach out your home and have a meal with someone that might be of might not be of the faith, someone that you do not know. And one of the greatest examples of the gospel I've heard of this lady that was a lesbian, a professor at a university in South in New York. And this guy just reached out his home to her and invited her to come into his family's life and to have dinner with them. And through a course of several months, she saw the gospel alive at their home. And she came to know Christ because this pastor was hospitable. And I mean, I think that is one that's very lacking in our churches, not just in Independent Baptist, but in the churches in America, just people being hospitable in general. Yeah. And she's now the wife of a Presbyterian pastor. Her name's Rosaria Butterfield. And I highly recommend. Yeah. The gospel comes with a house key. Great, great book. Yeah. I haven't read it yet. All right. So the next one is, the next one is, is the, the, the, the, basically the difference between our qualifications with a deacon and our qualifications with an elder or pastor. And that is this qualification of being apt to teach, meaning he's skilled. This person, this, this person must be skilled in teaching. Uh, this phrase is translated from the single Greek word didactito, didactito, didactito, did, I'm going to, oh, I'm ruining it. Didactikos. It is never used to speak of the gift of teaching of, uh, the office of a teacher. It is not saying a leader must necessarily be a great Bible teacher. It is saying that he must be able, he must be teachable as well as being able to communicate biblical truth to others. The word conveys not so much the dynamics of his teaching as his sensitivity to other people. He teaches with a meek and gentle spirit. Holy cow. How many would that disqualify? Yeah, that that's crazy. A meek and tempered spirit. How many would be disqualified over that one? Yeah. Wow. Let's look at this next one. Um, and this one is going to probably cause the most controversy because people have their differences of opinion on many different ways. Uh, but the next one is not given to one. He is not a drinker. And, uh, so I'm going to continue looking at a couple of things here. Um, it's not mere prohibiting someone from being a drunken, uh, but a, uh, elder must not have the reputation of a drinker. Uh, we have to look at it like this way. Are you clouding your influence as a pastor, as a leader by your, what you are doing in and of your life? And so, uh, MacArthur says this, his lifestyle must be radically different from the world in order to leave, lead the world and lead others in a holistic lifestyle. And so what is our life? Are we, um, how is a pastor looking at this? Let's look at this next one, Kyle. Well, I don't know if we can skip over that one too quick because it is controversial. Um, this is not going to be, this is not going to be the episode on alcohol. Um, and I know that probably, yeah, I, I know, but I think the three of us may have differing opinions on this or we may not. I don't know. We haven't talked about it, but, um, uh, I'm not necessarily convinced that this is actually saying that somebody who is an elder or overseer can never take a drink. Um, but is not somebody who's supposed to, right. That's right. That is not what you said. Um, but he's not to be, uh, somebody who goes to it a lot. And, and let me just say this for, you know, just to clear the air personally, uh, I abstain, uh, 100% just because I don't, uh, you know, I, again, I take this stuff very seriously and I don't ever want that to be an issue for anyone. Um, but at the same time, uh, I am not going to be, I, I, I practice not judging someone who does take the occasional, uh, drink. Yeah. Um, I just think, I mean, that it's just, uh, I think it's important to, to preach what the Bible teaches on alcohol. Exactly. And, um, you know, the Bible definitely says, um, don't be drunk with wine. It also says that wine is a mocker, uh, and strong drink is raging. And if you're deceived by it, you're definitely foolish. And there's a lot of people who are, have been deceived and are foolish with it. Um, but also there's several passages of scripture that say where alcohol has been given to us as a gift from God to be enjoyed. Paula actually even instructs Timothy to use a little wine for his stomach sake, um, not referring to grape juice. Um, so he instructed Timothy to drink. Um, but it's like you say, it's living above reproach and, um, living with, uh, with living blameless and an example of the believers. And, um, so, I mean, there's so much you could say about this one, but, uh, that'll be for another episode on the four freedom podcast. Uh, not a striker. It's going to be big. Number 10 is going to be big for the IFB. No striker, not pugnacious. He is not a fighter. Um, that probably would have, um, I mean, I don't know if I've, this is a big one. Cause like in the circles we were raised up in, it was like, I mean, pastors made jokes about, you know, being a big, mean, tough guy. Like you better not mess with me. And, uh, you know, Phil kid shadow box. Um, it's like, well, I mean the physical, yeah, the physical intimidation was always sort of an aspect of their theatrics. Um, not necessarily saying that they, they violated this, but they, they, they definitely courted the idea of this wasn't that big. This was something that they glorified and not, not something that they shied away from. Um, and it goes along with the next, next two, uh, patient and gentle. This means he's easily pardons human failure. Gentleness is the ability to remember the good and forget what is evil. You don't keep a record of wrongs. People have committed against you. If this is what the, one of the aspects that we're supposed to, um, teach our believers, then man should not pastors be exemplifying this, but how many grudges are held, uh, towards people, how, how vindictive can, can pastors be? I mean, wow. I know. Yeah, exactly. Hey, look at the next one here, guys, not a brawler or peaceable. He's not quarrelsome. Um, I love the thought here. He is someone who can bring unity. He does not promote disunity or disharmony. Um, how many times did we hear disunity among the brethren, uh, from pastors, uh, maybe about soccer. We, we mentioned that clip last week, uh, the difference between football and soccer, um, and the communist soccer and God's not in soccer. He can't be inside. Uh, that that's creating disunity and disharmony, uh, among the brethren. And so we should be thinking of those things. I think that one right there disqualified half the pastorate in the, in the world. Yeah. I mean, really? How many of us are out there looking for a fight? Social media just exemplifies. Yeah, that's what I was getting ready to say. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's hard to bite your tongue sometimes. It is. Um, and I think there's, there's times like, I mean, especially like, and like this podcast, it's, and the RFP and it's, it's great that, I mean, there's times when you do need to call out things that are, that are, that have gone wrong and that are, that are wrong and against scripture. But then, I mean, a lot of times social media is just, I mean, nobody holds you accountable. You can say whatever you want to say. And I mean, I, I'd say that there's several that have disqualified themselves just from social media as far as not being, as being quarrelsome. And, uh, but I think too, I mean, a pastor's just as guilty as getting behind his pulpit in his mic and arguing about another pastor that can't defend himself right there in front of his people. And, um, you know, I, the Christian school I was from, they, they disassociated themselves with another church and Christian school because of refs at a basketball game. I'm not even joking. Like they quit playing them and quit fellowshipping with this church. And they were both in this, I mean, they're both Christian schools that are trying to, you know, teach kids about the Bible and they couldn't agree on the basketball court. Yeah. Goes back to that promoting unity. And are we promoting unity in our lives? Look at the Cal, what's the next one? Not covetous, free from the love of money. And I think it's something we've already talked about. And, and that would, I mean, uh, you know, being able to, to, to not live in excess is the same, kind of the same thing, free from the love of money. Um, not greedy, but man, this, this is really hurt a lot of pastors. Uh, James McDonald, uh, one in particular, it disqualified him. Um, just, just greed and the love of money is what, what was his downfall. Yeah. Yeah. And then this one I think would, uh, is, is really, it's sticky. Um, I've probably seen this one explained away, uh, maybe more so than the one on a husband of one wife. Cause everybody tries to explain away husband of one wife to try to, you know, make it okay for them. Um, and again, they don't really get to what that's teaching, but one that rules his house well or rules his rules, well, his own house maintains a godly family. He maintains a godly family. And the interesting thing is, is that when the scripture mentions that qualification, it even adds another note to it. And it says, how can he rule the household of God if he can't rule his own family? And so we make all kinds of explanations. Yeah. What'd you say? It defines it for us. It tells us, Hey, yeah. Yeah. And, and you know what I've told, I told our church this one time when I was going through this and I said, you know what? Most of these qualifications depend on my lifestyle and how I choose to, they're in my hands. You know how I choose to live. I can disqualify myself. I said, but there are two that, and, and some, and there are some ways where there's two qualifications here that are actually not in my hands that can disqualify me from pastoral ministry and I've got to be okay with that. And that is my family. You know, there, there are certain aspects of, of, you know, my household, you know, I know that certain specific situations, you can get down to the details and say, well, maybe this is a failure in parenting and something, but I understand that, that my children hold my pastoral role in their hands at some point. And, you know, I, I have to accept that and I have to have the integrity. And if it comes to the point where I've had a parenting failure to where it brings reproach to the household of God, because as a pastor, I'm not leading by that example. I'm not being blameless in the area of, of, of, of, uh, handling my family. Then I must step back. Yeah. It too, John, I think it's important to, to realize that, you know, the Bible talks about in the old Testament that, that God didn't punish the parents for the sins of the children or the children for the sins of the parents. So like there's going to be, I don't think a pastor is to be held accountable if his son walks away from the faith. That's, that's especially if, if the, if the pastor has a good reputation, you know, in his family, it has a reputation of being blameless. There's just going to be times where, I mean, you look at God as a parent, for an example. I mean, he was the example of the best parent and his two kids, his first two kids rebelled against him. So, um, I think this is, you know, the, the maintaining a godly family. I think that's a family man that, uh, somebody that, that builds his family around the gospel. I think that is, so one, for one, I've seen pastors whose family didn't go to church, whose families were, I mean, they were separated from his ministry. And I believe that would be more of the, the qualification that the Bible's talking about here. Well, me and James, me and James actually have, we've discussed this, this subject in and out quite a bit because there, there is, there, you know, there is some subjectivity in it, right? Because, um, we have what it says, but then when you get into the details of how things work out and like, oh, what about this situation? What about this situation? How do you apply it in this situation? And it's like, okay, can there be subjectivity? And I, and I agree. Yes, there can. And I think a lot of times it'll have to come down between, um, between that pastor, between that congregation and between that leadership, because that's, again, this is where it is important to have a plurality of qualified men. Because let's say you have one that may be having a family situation where it can call into question whether this is a violation of his qualification of handling his family, being blameless and handling his family. Well, you have two, maybe three guys that are also qualified, examine the situation. And they say, you know what? We know the details of this situation. We actually don't think this has disqualified him. Then I believe that God is, is, is, is honored and glorified in that situation. But if, you know, they may, I do, I think you're right, Kyle. I think there can be error, uh, in trying to get way too specific with some of these areas that is a little gray in here. But I, I always do want to hold to, for myself being a pastor, a high, a high standard. Yeah. And I, for me personally, I take this a little step further for really in the last three and a half years of this ministry where we're at. Um, and I like to say it as, as like this, you're putting your family first. Yeah. You're, you're giving your family priority. Um, there are times where I'm going to miss a ball game. I'm going to miss practices. Um, but is my family feeling valued and feeling first in that relationship? And so many times we've heard the clip on the sermon clips of Hamlin saying, you're going to have to neglect your family if you want your ministry to grow. That's unscriptural. I don't think the Bible says that. I think that as qualifying, yeah. As, as pastors, we are to pastor our families as well. And for the first time in my life here at this church where I'm at, um, they are encouraging me to spend time with my family. They give me a day off. They are giving me time off when our new baby comes just to spend time with my wife and my new kid. And we didn't have that before. It was literally, we came home from India on a mission trip. I saw my son in the hospital and I was at the church the next day because ministry had to get done. And, and just, you know, the thought of that, um, we took as a family, we took one vacation in four years in Idaho. That's not putting my family first. Yeah. And so it really goes back to, does the church understand this principle? And that's part of us educating the church and helping them understand you. You get sick time at your job, but yet you've got to give me time with my family too. So it's more of educating more than anything. This next one, number 14 is not a novice, not a new convert. This is a mature Christian. You don't want someone new to your faith, new to the faith of Jesus leading the church. Um, and so this is, this is a simple, basic leadership principle. I think more than anything, um, of who do you have leading your organization? You wouldn't put, uh, an 18 year old in charge of Apple industries or Tesla or Google, um, when they don't know anything about leadership or maybe the company itself and how it runs. And so you want someone that's going to be mature, someone who has been developed. Um, and I don't know the age on this. I don't know one year after there isn't a specific standard, but there needs to be some maturity. There needs to be some knowledge of scripture, um, that, that would qualify this person to be the pastor. And then Kyle, the last one. Has a good report of them, which are without a good reputation with the outs, with those outside the church. He is well-respected by non-Christians. And I love this one. Um, because I, and I, I think John, maybe on the last week's episode, we talked about this. Some is that, I mean, it's just so important for, uh, pastors to, to get out of their bubble, get out of their comfort zone and talk to people who, who don't know the Lord. And, and if you have a, a reputation with those outside of the church, with those that are lost, you're actually, you're, you're spending time with them on a consistent basis somewhere. It's not just like, I saw this guy on Twitter a few weeks ago that he said he'd been eating at this restaurant for years. And, and he tried to, uh, give him the Roman's road once. And he finally was able to give him the Roman's road after years. And he, I guess that's, he thinks he's got a good reputation of those outside the church because of the restaurant he eats at. Like, I don't, I don't believe that's what it's talking about, but maybe like those business contacts, those things that you were saying, like where you worked at Chick-fil-A James and just had that reputation of those. Um, yeah. Well, John, what's your closing thoughts on this? Uh, we've went longer than we were expecting to go, uh, but it's a big topic. It's something that is, is huge. That is sometime mistreated and can hurt people. And so John, what's your closing thoughts and any closing questions that we have? Uh, I, I want to wrap up with this. And that is that when we think about the role of the pastor, it is not supposed to be a domineering, um, one soul, uh, dictator type of leadership. It is characterized in scripture as a shepherd. And, um, I like to simplify things. I like to make them very simple. And I've, I've told our church, I said, I believe that to simplify my ministry as a pastor, as a shepherd, it's threefold. It is feed the sheep, protect the sheep and, um, and take care of the sheep. Meaning, um, I feed them. I teach them the word of God. I labor in the word of God. I protect them from false doctrine. I protect them from false error and from false teachers. And then I care for them. I am with them. I am the personal touch of being there at the hospital, being there. You know, I know COVID has kept us from being able to do a lot of that, but being in their homes and visiting and, and that type of thing, that is the character of a shepherd. And if you want to, you want to understand how, what a pastor's role is supposed to look like. Don't look at what is exemplified to you on IFB sermon clips. Go to John chapter 13, John chapter 13, and what Jesus does for the disciples. It is not a guy that gets up there and says, do not touch God's anointed. If he's doing the wrong thing, it is someone who girds himself as a slave and washes the feet of those he serves. Because that is what Jesus said is to be our example. Yeah. Yeah. I like the word for the title that I think the Methodists use, they call them their minister. I mean, that's really the attitude that we ought to have is that we are there to minister, to serve others. Yep. In closing, I'll say this. I was told this years ago, and it's nothing new with me. I don't even know where I heard it. But for you to be a shepherd, you've got to smell like sheep. Yeah. And if you're not going to shepherd and smell like the people that we're shepherding, then you're not doing the role of a shepherd. And so that's our challenge for all of our pastors as they listen to this. Thank you guys so much. Thanks, Kyle, for being with us and taking the time to sit down and have a good conversation with us about this. We appreciate you being here. We appreciate everybody listening and being part of the For Freedom family and the RFP family now as we are with the RFP network. We appreciate the social media love and listening to the podcast. We ask that you like it, subscribe, and share it if you enjoyed the episode. And until next time, to God, not... We'll kick it old school, the pastor. Be the glory. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

Auto-generated transcript · 12,074 words. May contain errors.