32. Joining the RFP Network & Part 1 w/ Kyle Kinzer

And here we go. This is the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. And to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now, here's your host, John Hollifield. And welcome everybody to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host, John Hollifield, with your other host, Big James Safer. How are you doing, James? I'm doing good, John. We are T-minus four days from the release of this episode to having a third child in the Safer residence. Yes, yes. Baby Hudson is coming. Hudson Taylor. And your mouth is full of peanuts right now. It is. You started before I could start. You jumped in too quick. I love it. I love it. I caught him off guard. But it's been a crazy, crazy time. Our family just got over the stomach bug. And that was not fun at all. And I find that the older that I get, it becomes even worse. But, yeah. And the more kids that you have, it gets worse. Because it has to go through everybody. And every stinking kid. I love my kids, though. Don't take that the wrong way, internet people. But we are excited today. Also, if I sound a little bit out of it or a little bit loopy today, it's because I didn't get them a lot of sleep, James. Yeah. Well, James had counseled me. We spent some time together last year in October. And he told me, he said, you need to check out and see if you've got sleep apnea. Because I've been struggling with being tired and stuff. And so I looked into it. And we went and saw a doctor. And finally got around to actually getting to that point of having the sleep study. So this is what they did. They sent it to me. They sent it to me in the mail. And I'm supposed to put this thing on my finger. And then put this thing on my chest. And then turn on this app on my phone. And go to bed. So I did it last night. And it was, I don't think I slept one bit. It was awful. I feel like I'm so stinking tired today. John, when I did my sleep study, I'm going to send you a picture of it. It literally looked like I was a cyborg off of Star Trek. Do you remember when Data was hooked up? Did you ever watch Star Trek, John? Oh, sorry. I'm explaining something that means absolutely nothing to you. But I had 10 or 12 chords coming out of my head. I had two or three connected to my chest. And then I had this square box that was attached by Velcro around my arms and around my back. And then they had a couple of things on my hand. Did you sleep? And they said, all right, you're going to lay in this bed and you're going to go to sleep. And they glued them to my head. So they moved some stuff around and they glued it into my head. And it was going to monitor my brain pattern. And they said, you're going to sleep in this room. We've got a video camera set up and we're just going to watch you sleep and see how things go. I fell asleep. I took a picture of it because I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I'll send you the picture. So maybe our audience can see that. But it was a pretty fun, exciting time. And they said it was a pretty rough case for me. I stopped breathing like 142 times in two hours. And they came in, gave me a mask, put it on. And from that day forward, I've worn a sleep mask. But it changed my life. Almost as good as salvation, but not quite as good. But it was close. Well, my appointment is next week. So we'll see how this thing does next week. I hope I did it right. But, you know, let's jump into, I'm really excited about today's episode. And the announcement is really nice. Let's jump into this week's roundup. And break that down. So here it is, James. Here's the big announcement that most everybody heard because it was announced on the RFP. You want to go ahead and tell everybody? Drumroll is we are part of the RFP network now. John sat down with Nathan last week and had a lunch a couple weeks ago. And I wasn't, unfortunately, not able to be there. But we are joining the RFP network. And we're going to start doing some stuff. We're shooting to be at one of the meetups. Either the one in Georgia in June or the one in Branson. We haven't decided. We're looking at our schedule right now. Trying to figure out which one's going to work best for us. But our plan is to be at one of those roundups or their meetups. And be able to interact with some people and have a good time. Yeah. And we, I got to, James said, I got to sit down with Nathan at Champy's in Chattanooga. And it was pretty good food. But we had a good time talking. And he had given us, you know, reached out to us and asked if we wanted to do this. We talked. And it was pretty much like, James didn't even think of it. He's like, absolutely. And I was like, okay, I'm on board too. It was a no-brainer for us. And the reason why it was a no-brainer for us because, and I told Nathan this, I said, there is no For Freedom podcast if there's no Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. I mean, we are a direct result of what they were doing. And I don't feel ashamed saying that. I don't feel like any bad thing, you know, saying that. I mean, it just makes sense that we join up with their network. And we're thankful that they would even think that we're, we certainly think that we can be a little bit crazy sometimes. We are not the most professional podcast in the world. So for them to actually think that, we are very, very humbled and appreciate that. So we are excited about that and excited about things coming. And we will be, we'll be helping out with the Recovering Fundamentalist world and making announcements there. Of course, James mentioned the RFP meetups. And we are going to help push those as well, even if we cannot make it. And so, so that's coming up and we, you know what, this is what I want to do. I want to, we normally go at this port, is this part into our IFB sermon archive clip. And I want to do that, but I want to bring our guest on so he can, he can, you know, help, you know, comment on this, in this clip as well. So we have a special guest today with us. Brother Kyle Kinzer, brother Kyle Kinzer. What's up, Kyle? Man, it's great to be here. An honor. Your guys' podcast has been a blessing. And just appreciate the invite. You know, I hadn't seen James since college. We met a few weeks ago and it's been about 10 years now. And, but just the last few episodes, especially if y'all's podcast has been a huge blessing to me. The King James only ism that you guys did. Man, that was one of the most in-depth studies of it. And, and it helped me. Like I told James this, that I'd already switched because of the readability of the King James and other translations. Just as a youth pastor, my kids were not understanding anything they were reading. So I just wanted them to be able to understand God's word. And so I'd kind of always had some of that stuff from the, the, the text part of it, you know, like the Greek text and some questions about that from what we had heard. But, but man, you guys dove right into that. And man, it was just a blessing. Gave me confidence in the translation that I had used and stuff. So, man, I appreciate you guys. Such a privilege to be on today. Yeah, we're excited about having Kyle on. We're going to get to his story. We want to hear his story today. And then we also, for next week's episode, we're going to talk about a very important subject that we've been wanting to get to. And we're going to dive into this one with Kyle as well on pastoral authority. But let's jump into the IFB archive clip. And this is from a message we've been playing clips from for a few weeks now. And this is from a message that was preached at the college that I went to, James went to, and Kyle went to. Although I would say that this message was preached, I think, before even Kyle and James had gotten there. But it was preached by Tony Hudson. The title of the message was Three Creeps That Come In Unawares. And it was, this is his sort of, believe it or not, this is Tony Hudson's ripping on legalism. Here it is. But I'm not a legalist. I'm a separatist. You won't see me adding works to grace. It's not of works that any man should boast. But notice, I believe with all my heart, there was a crowd that came in to this Galatians, these Judaizers. They said, you're going to have to act like we act, just like we act, or you're not part of us. Legalizers. The legalist. Several things about them. Number one, now you hear me, I've seen it. I'm preaching from experience now. I'm not preaching what I think. I'm preaching what I know. The progress of many local churches, the progress of many young preachers, the progress of great works like you have here, Brother Capace, many times have been stalled and stopped, and you were running well, but here comes some legalists. First thing they do, they intimidate you. Now, when you really get right with God, you won't like football. Sir, when you really get right with God, you'll keep playing that communist soccer. Soccer is for girls, football is for boys. Soccer is communistic from the... Hey, it was... There's nothing American about soccer, sir. It's preaching time. There you go, guys. It's preaching time. Get on that communist soccer now. My favorite part there is he said, you're not going to intimidate me. Like, because you're talking about soccer, it's an intimidation. Or you're talking about a sport, you're intimidating someone. And then I love how he said that soccer equals preaching time. Preaching on communism soccer is exactly what the Apostle Paul did. He preached against communism and soccer and all that good stuff. And so that's exactly... That's where he got it. Oh, man. I love how he threw in that verse. Not without works. I'm not going to boast. And so just like, because you throw in that verse, it means you're preaching. Oh, man. It's great. What I loved about it, he was like, we don't try to add works to salvation or after your Savior. We don't separate because of this and that. And I was just like, what about beards and Jeeps? Come on. I mean, clickbait. What in the world? It's like... Just like I've... His... Yeah, his message, his preaching is like... Straight up gaslighting from start to finish. Because he defines... This is an interesting thing in his clip. And I don't mean to get too technical with Tony Hudson's preaching. But he defines... He's not a legalist because he doesn't add grace to works. But then he defines other people as legalists because you have to do things exactly how they do it. And then he rips you on a legalistic point of liking soccer that's not in the Bible. Yeah. That's like... Oh, my goodness. That's gaslighting... The words are escaping me at the present moment. But yeah, that was absolutely insane. His preaching often leaves me speechless. For that reason. Well, like we said, we are excited to have Kyle here with us today. And Kyle's going to talk a little bit about his testimony. So, Kyle, we're going to turn it over to you and basically let you just go forward and tell your story. If James or I have any questions, we'll, you know, stop you on the way. But go ahead, man. It's good to have you. Tell us a little bit about... Start off telling us a little bit about, you know, who you are, your family, and where you are now. And then go through and tell us how you got to where you're at. Yeah. Well, my name is Kyle Kinzer. And I am in East Tennessee. They're in Bristol, Tennessee. We're helping out a church, New Victory Church in Johnson City, where I serve on the worship team. And we just started the church last August is when we officially launched and just seeing God move. And we love our pastor there, Tyler Dalton and his wife, Rachel, and their family. They're just a few years older than us. And just love serving there with his passion for the gospel and just have an awesome team of people. But I'm married to Rachel Kinzer, Rachel Pearson Kinzer previously. But anyways, and I have five beautiful daughters. And yes, that's a lot. I know. Yes, we have TV. What other questions? Yes, my hands are full. Are you planning on being a missionary, Kyle? No, I'm not on the foreign mission. Because all missionaries have multiple children. So, yeah. Right. Lots of them. Where's that? But, yeah, I know my hands are full. Yes, I'm outnumbered. I mean, what are the other things that normal people say? Our youngest two daughters are twins. And they have been crazy. Yeah, I mean, that changed the ballgame for us. But they're amazing. We actually had one person, John, ask us if they had separate personalities. I was like, no, they're the exact same person, believe it or not. Oh, my goodness. But, yeah, they're awesome. But they're the best part of me. And God's blessed me so much with my family. But, yeah, that's where we are right now. And thankful for where God's brought us. Anyways, like... Well, Kyle, let me ask you this as we get started. Okay. What is your... At a new church plant, where did your life begin? Tell us about your family. I think your dad's a pastor. Is that correct? Yeah. Just sort of tell us about how you came to be where you're at right now today in your journey of... Through the Independent Fundamental Baptist world. Yeah. Well, my grandparents were saved in the Independent Baptist Church on both my mom and my dad's side. My parents met at the same Christian school that I attended from an Independent Baptist Church. And my dad went to Howes Anderson College as well as my mom. My mom actually went to one year at Liberty when it was still independent. But, so my dad went to Howes Anderson. He's a pastor in Princeton, West Virginia. And so I have... And that's what I was raised in, that type of environment. I have my oldest sister's husband. He is a pastor of an Independent Baptist Church in South Carolina. And my youngest... I have three sisters. Two of them both are married to pastors in the Independent Baptist Church. And my grandparents, my mom's grandparents, they still go to the Independent Baptist Church. My whole family is still an Independent Baptist on my immediate family. So, I have a lot of experience in the Independent Baptist world. And how I got out of it, I guess, to say is that... My dad, growing up, okay. My dad, he would say amen maybe to some of the stuff, the crazy clips that you hear. He might amen them or laugh at them or giggle at them. But he would never preach those things from his pulpit. And growing up, my dad's favorite preacher was Adrian Rogers. And that's what I was raised on, is Adrian Rogers. And so, he became my favorite preacher as well. And his preaching impacted my life. And so, I just quit. Like, my dad would say, man, Adrian's so good, but he's a Southern Baptist. And but all this, and he's great. And he shouldn't use another translation here. But man, he's helped my life so much. That's what my dad would say. Well, so as I got older, went to Bible college, and just started seeking truth on my own, I just quit making excuses for Adrian Rogers. And I was like, man, he loves God. And I've never heard a pastor exude God's love from himself like Adrian Rogers. It's like, there's no scandal against him. His family loves him. His family's serving Jesus. And it's like, that's who I want to be. And so, I want to imitate that as a preacher. And so, that's kind of where it first started. And so, as I went to Bible college, I am talking too much. I feel like I'm talking too much. Okay. So, I went to Bible college. And, you know, the Bible college we went to, it was definitely independent Baptist and still had some legalism. But it was even thought of as, you know, there's a lot of circles that thought we were liberal even then. Yeah. When you came, Kyle, it was really on that transition year almost where it started to change. Like, my way out, I think we had this, I don't know if we established this on air, but I was graduating your first year. And so, my way out, you started to see things change. And the year after I left, James would call me and say, this is what we were doing down here. I was like, dude, why couldn't they have done that when I was there? And so, it was, and it really started to change quickly. Yeah. It did. When Judson Mitchell departed from the scene, when David Maddox left, sort of those powerhouses were gone. Brother Eric was at the point where he had to define who the college was going to be for his side of it. Because he became the spokesman, he became the example. And, you know, we couldn't listen to contemporary music, but everyone knew that if you rode in the vehicle with Brother Eric, he was listening to contemporary music in his car. He was listening to K-Love. He was listening to things like that. And so, all of a sudden, Brother Eric at this point was saying, okay, well, who am I? And I've got to define the college. So, we were during that transition. I was there two more years. Kyle was on the scene at that point. And so, we went two years there at college. So, there was definitely a huge shift in the college. So, you want to know something that's funny? Like, in college, in the rule books, like, that we all had to sign, like, we weren't allowed to listen to contemporary music. Right? And so, James, my junior year, your senior year, we're both floor leaders. So, we're the tattletales of the college. Yeah. So, more me than you. Yeah, I didn't tattletale. I just let things go. Yeah, you were the cool guy. And so, because I actually did what they asked me to do, I was hated. But I didn't care because me and Rachel were fixing to get engaged. And so, that was all I cared about. But anyway, so, I actually wrote people up for listening to contemporary music. And they were fined for it. And I feel like, it's funny. Like, I don't feel bad because they signed the book saying they wouldn't. I mean, that was the rule. But at the same time, now, I'm in a worship band on Sunday morning. You know what really gets my fire going is when I was just back at college. I'm talking to some of the guys there. I was back there for Teen Revolution. And they have TVs in their dorm rooms. Oh, my goodness. And they watch movies in their dorm rooms. And I had a $50 fine for watching movies in my dorm room because of my wonderful buddy, Mr. Whitehouse, Brady Whitehouse. I'm name-dropping this episode. Yeah, I noticed that. I was like, I don't think we're doing that. He wrote me up for it. This has been confession time with Kyle Kinzer and James Safer. But it was crazy to see how far they've come and how different they are now than when we were there. And that was 10 years ago for me, eight years ago for you. Well, John Hammey, didn't he get, he got expelled for having a DVD business in his dorm room. He was renting DVDs out from his dorm room. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So that's good stuff. But yeah, it's incredible. But the whole point of getting in on that is that like our Bible college wasn't even considered like, it wasn't like we were, we would sing contemporary songs to modern, to the piano. Right. So that's always the feel. Like I never, like I always thought it was crazy. Like there was no way I was going to go to a camp that made me wear pants to swim in a pool. I mean, I was like, that's ridiculous. Or pants in a 90 degree weather. I was going to wear shorts. And that's the way my parents were. So they were, you know, I didn't have it as bad. And my family, I have a great heritage. I'm like, I don't want to, I hope that my family listens to this podcast. So, but, but me leaving the IFB has been the greatest source of contention in my family between me and my parents and my sisters. And so, but, but what God really used to help me get out of the IFB was some of my extended family. Um, I remember, um, so my, my, my parent, my, my mom's parents, my grandparents on my mom's side, um, they still go to the church that had the, the Christian school that I was raised in. And, but they are the most loving people I've ever met. They truly show Christ's love. And, um, they don't, um, the gospel is what they center their, their, their love on. See, so they're my, my cousins on that side, they were not raised in independent Baptist. Um, so growing up, you know, I was, and I, they would, they would bring like, uh, their other Bible versions to our family gatherings and stuff. And I'd be like, no, y'all need to use the King James. And, you know, this is what you need to use. And so grow after Bible college growing up, I was real close to one, one cousin in particular that lives in Boone. And, um, we're very close to this day, but he, at his wedding, all right, he, um, he just surrendered to go. He went to App State. He just surrendered to go to seminary in Denver, Colorado. He's going to move his whole life and go to Denver, Colorado. Um, but at his wedding, it was the most spiritual thing I'd ever seen, like spiritual, one of the most spiritual events I'd ever been to. They didn't use the King James version. There was contemporary music being played while they were walking down the aisle. During their wedding ceremony, they washed each other's feet. Okay. And at the reception, there was dancing. And I was like, all right, this honored God. There's no way I can say that this didn't honor God. And so I, I asked God then after that, I said, Lord, I'm not going to, I'm going to stop condemning what you don't condemn. And, um, and really God used that instance in my life. And then, um, you know, after my first ministry experience, um, God led me to a church. It was an independent, it's an independent Baptist church in Bristol, Tennessee. Um, uh, my first experience was, it was kind of like, uh, what you would expect from the independent Baptist, like the pastor, like one of the, the pastoral authority thing that we're going to get on, like he was pretty much the say so. And, um, it just, I came into his office one day and he said it, it wasn't a good fit between me and him. And it would be best if I resigned and he talked to the deacons the night before. And, and, uh, that. How long had you been there, Kyle? One year. Okay. So you'd been there a year and that's when he sort of figured out that you weren't of the same, you guys weren't on the same page. Yeah. That's what, and, um, anyway, is it, so that's, that was hard for me and Rachel, you know, we'd been taught in Bible college, you know, that our whole life is defined by our ministry and now I'm getting let go. And, but I have to, I have to resign. So, um, but I mean, we were loved by the church and we were, uh, we still have friends from that church to this day. And, um, it was just hard because, you know, he, he said it would be best if we didn't come back on that Sunday and tell everybody. And so our teenagers that we were youth pastor, they're wondering why we didn't come. And so why we're just up and leaving them and just, the pastor just gets up and reads my resignation. That's all he did. Like the very, the next service, he didn't say anything. He just read my resignation and everybody in the church is, is just wondering what's going on. so you didn't read your resignation. No, no. And, uh, he gave me three months severance pay and he said, if you started in trouble, the money stops. So it's like, uh, I, I was afraid to say what happened because we, we didn't leave because we wanted to. Um, but, uh, and it's called controlling the narrative. Yeah. Well, I was told me and James talked about this at, when we met a few weeks ago for lunch, uh, I should have called his bluff and made him fire me. You'd have to explain to the church why he was letting me go. And, but, um, I wasn't at the financial point to be able to do that. Yeah. So when, uh, when all this happened, did you counsel with anyone? I know, but Eric counseled you to go here. I'm sure your dad was probably one that you talked to. Yeah. Uh, what, what was their advice when all this was going on? What did they say if you haven't talked to anybody during this time? Yeah. Like, uh, I was just going to go back to my dad's church and regroup. You know, that's what I was planning on doing. I just leave Bristol. And, and, um, so that's, everybody counseled me. I told them what was going on and, you know, and they just, uh, you know, for, I was a little bit embarrassed, you know, cause it didn't work out. I mean, I was not a little bit, I was a lot of bit embarrassed. So you didn't go on Facebook and say, I just got fired. No, you're going to know that's a little bit. I wanted that money. And, uh, and so I didn't take a chance on, on losing that. And so I was just going to go back to West Virginia and regroup with my family. Did you guys have kids at this time? We had, yes, one. And, um, we had Chloe. And then we were, we just found out like we were expecting Carly at that time, but we didn't know it. So, um, so you have that pressure of, I've got a family to feed and I've got to take care of it. And so it's like, you know what? You're in survival mode instead of thinking critically about what's the, you know, what's really going on right here. Yeah. So, um, that, uh, that was crazy. And I mean, that was a really hard time in our life. And, but man, just looking through it, you know, I've, I've been listening a lot. I listened to the Bible. I've been listening to the Bible a lot. And that's, um, helped me to, when you can listen to large sums of the Bible at, um, at, you know, at a one period of time, you kind of get an overview of the thought of the books and stuff. But I've been listening recently to the, the Kings and the Chronicles, and it just says several times, like, but the thing was of the Lord and they did not know that it was of the Lord. And, but so God, that whole instance was definitely of the Lord. And God used that to get me to charity Baptist in Blountville. Um, and there at that church, uh, they were an independent church, but this is kind of, even at that time, more unaffiliated. Um, and see the, the youth group would play like Chris Tomlin songs up on the screen and stuff during their, while the, um, during the youth services and things. And that was like crazy to me. I'm like, what in the world? But the, the pastor had called me and said, Hey, I got your name from, um, from somebody that, that knew about you at new grace. And we, we needed the youth pastor and you might be interested in us. We might be interested in you. Won't you come? So, uh, came and visited the church and the pastor asked me to preach, um, a few Sundays after that. I remember this, this was incredible. And like the Sunday night, I, I preached a teenage girl walks down the aisle and, and makes a profession of faith. And, you know, I mean, that just doesn't happen. That didn't happen every service at that church. And it was, you know, so that kind of started everything there at charity. And, and so I started, I, I would, I counseled with my dad and with others. I said, Hey, that they play contemporary. At the, at the, with the youth, should I continue to go there? And, you know, everybody said, Hey, I would even, uh, a prominent IFB pastor in that area counseled me, not like, uh, I don't, well, since we're name dropping. All right. Dewey Williams. I don't know if you know Dewey wins, but he was brother. Uh, he was Justin Schaefer's pastor that we went to school with, but he counseled me to go. And, um, so I said, all right. And I went and the, uh, my goal was, is like, I'm going to show them that this contemporary worldly modern music, I'm going to show them that it's not of God. And I'm going to, I'm going to bring them back into the old past. Straighten them out. So the first few months I'm there, man, they had a youth night. And this, and they invited this worship band to come up. And, um, it just happened to be on the same week that my wife's folks from Florida, my wife's mom from Florida had decided to visit us. And they're from the Ruckman camp and, uh, Tim the Lord's church. They were actually on staff at Tim the Lord's church. And, uh, so they're out of that branch, but man, that, that worship band gets up and they, I mean, they don't hold anything back. And, um, and I was like, Oh my goodness. And I'm just, my wife left the service crying with her mother. And we're like, what's going on here. And so, uh, I talked to the pastor about it and I was like, I just don't, I just don't know about that, man. And he's like, well, there's a lot of people that were blessed by it. Okay. So I, I mean, at this time I'm having a lot of questions, you know, I don't know, but, but God really used that time in my life. Cause I got to see people that truly and genuinely loved Jesus who were worshiping to that style. And, and the, I see how the teenagers reacted and how God was using that style of music. And as I was listening to the lyrics and stuff, it's, it's, it was incredible how, I mean, just so many of them songs that we were taught, they like take the blood out, they take all, all doctrine out. And I just got, I just started listening to it. I just said, man, no, they don't. I mean, there's a lot, some do, you know, I mean, I'm not going to lie and say that, you know, so all contemporary music is solid doctrine because it's, it's just not the case, but there's a lot of good artists out there that love the Lord and have solid, solid lyrics, doctrinal lyrics. And so, so I had to come to the point if, am I going to, am I going to tell these people like the, the youth leaders that were there before me that were still serving, not getting paid. They were just there because they loved teenagers and love Jesus. And they were helping in the youth group. Am I going to seriously have a conversation with them? And sit down and tell them you're wrong. And I'm right. Am I going to be able to show them from the Bible, how they're wrong in their music and how their style and preference isn't right. And how that mine is. And, and I could never bring myself to do that. And, um, cause they're a lot, they had a lifestyle that pleased Jesus and that was gospel centered. And so that God really used that in my life. And so I just decided if God didn't make a big deal about it, I wasn't going to make a big deal about it. That's good. And in John chapter 15, as far as a passage of scripture, this is the passage of scripture that God used in my life. And it was in the King James to, to, to take me away from the IFB separatism is that, uh, Jesus said, they'll know you're my disciples by the love that you have for each other. And I said, there's, there's no music clause in that. They'll know you're my disciples. If you love them, if they have the right music or they love you, if they have the right Bible version, or that was just, that was God's standard of separation. If, if you love, if they love me, then you love them. And so that I started living my life by that. And, um, and God just, just took me away from that. IFB separatist ideology. And so as I would start asking questions to my family and to others that I knew, it started, they're like, Oh yeah. I mean, you, you're supposed to love them, but you don't have to be with them. And I said, well, dad, if I told you, I loved you and I never talked to you and I, I never hung out with you. Would you really think that I loved you? Is that true love? And, uh, and of course they, they don't have any, there's not much of an answer to that. So as I, as I let that be my, be my standard, I, um, uh, the guy just, just led me away from that independent Baptist movement. Well, that's a great, that's a great passage of scripture to use. You, you will know, they will know you're my disciples by the love that you have for one another. And, and you know, what it doesn't say is that they'll know you're my disciples by the love you have for the world or the love that you'll have for the lost. Now, don't get me wrong. Don't hear what I'm not saying. That's what I tell our church all the time. Don't hear what I'm not saying. Not saying that we are not instructed in scripture to love the lost or to love, you know, those that are out in the world. but the qualification of how he says that you'll know that they will know that you are my disciples is how you love each other. And think about what the IFB and the separatist Baptist movement has been so characterized by is vitriol towards the world and vitriol towards each other. Oh yeah. I mean, it's, it's sad. Like the home in Princeton, West Virginia, where I'm from, like I've, I've seen churches come together about maybe one time over one thing. And that was the camp meeting that Craig Edwards was preaching at. Like he came and just started, he just, he just started reading the preface of the King James and started saying, Hey, he's like Craig Edwards has come out to where he has a biblical view of translation and just started questioning these things. And literally I've never seen more churches in the Southern West Virginia area come together more than to come against Craig Edwards. They came together to be against somebody. Yeah. That was preaching the gospel. Lots of love, lots of love there. Yeah. We're, we're going to do a whole, whole episode here soon. Me and John talked about, about music and the standards of music. And I want to circle back just a little bit. You mentioned, you know, how the worship music and we heard it preached. We heard how they, if you played these songs backwards, how you would hear Satan's voice in the, in the song. And all of a sudden you're like, well, is that true? Is it not a true story? My wife went to a cast and crowns concert while we were in college. And it almost ended our relationship because I was told that they were wicked and they were of the devil. And we couldn't be, and I literally, we had an argument, but, and we almost broke up because she went to a wicked cast and crowns concert. And to this day, she'll tell people that she'll say, James is going to David Crowder ring collective. We're taking our teenagers to extreme winter. And I'm, I'm one of the first one that are up loving and praising Jesus with our teenagers. And she'll say every once in a while, she'll stop and she'll say, you know, you almost broke up with me because I was in the cast and crowns, but that's where we were at. We were indoctrinated in this. And when we think about the love that Jesus has for us and the love that we should show each other, but yet one little issue in Alexander County, we are the smallest county in North Carolina. I noticed driving. Yes. Yeah. You probably noticed that. Okay. We are the only county in North Carolina that has two associations in our county for Southern Baptists. We have a Alexander Baptist association and we have a Rocky face association. You know what their division is? What's that? The King James Bible. Okay. Our Rocky face association is King James only. Okay. The association that I'm in in Southern Baptist for the Alexander Baptist association, we're not King James only. Oh, wow. And so years ago, there was this big divide and they said, well, we can't associate with that crowd because they don't use the King James. What do they do at the state convention? So we all go, but we're represented by two different associations. That's hilarious. And so that even in the, in the area and the realm I'm in now in the Southern Baptist, we still see this division. We still see this and they won't come together. If we have a prayer meeting downtown, that's put on by the Alexander association, they won't come to pray because it's not put on by theirs. The first time that I've been here that we saw these two associations come together was when we had our flood back in October, November, November, and there were 50 people misplaced. It didn't have a home and our churches came together. It was the first time since I've been here in three and a half years that I saw our churches from a vast variety. We saw Methodist Lutheran. We saw Baptist. We saw our Rocky face, our Alexander. They all came together because it was helping people. And I was so encouraged because we weren't against anything. We were just trying to help people. And that's what the world needs to see. Yeah. And so many times we're against those things, man. It's, it's so sad because we are laughed at in our society because if, and this has been hard on my life. Like, I don't know if you guys are friends with Dustin Breland on Facebook, but recently he put a quote on Facebook, like live a life that demands a gospel explanation, like, man, that's been tearing my life all to pieces. And it's like, but that's what the world, like we don't live like we believe the gospel because if we did, we would love people because they love Jesus. But when you make other divisions because of, of non-biblical things or extra, or maybe not even your view, maybe you're interpreting one passion of script portion of scripture, differently. Okay. But are the standard for loving each other and for coming together and for fellowship is in John chapter 15 is loving each other because they love Jesus. So, so Kyle, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I thought you're, um, so did you, would you say it was there at that, at that church that, um, so you're not at that, that the church that you were speaking of, you're not at that church right now, right? No, I'm not. And I'm just, I just like to hop churches. That's what I've been accused of anyway. But no, I, while, while I was there, um, a pastor that had gotten saved from that church charity that was affiliated with charity, he, um, he, he got cancer, like a crazy cancer behind his nose. They had to literally remove his face and take the cancer out. Um, uh, and, but anyways, while he was, um, battling cancer, he's before he knew like two months before he found out he had cancer, he started a church in Johnson city. And so, um, when he got cancer, he was needing people to during treatments and stuff. He was needing people to fill in the pulpit. So, um, I would go preach for him while they were meeting there at the holiday inn in Johnson city. And so the, the Lord just kind of knit my heart to that church. Um, and their heart to mine and, and me and the pastor really, I clicked and, and God cleared him of his cancer, healed him completely. And he has become a really dear friend of mine. And, uh, we served there at that church for three years and we got, we went from the holiday inn. So we got established in a building, um, to where before COVID we were averaging well over a hundred people every Sunday, every service. So that was incredible to see that. And, um, so that's where I'm at. And it was funny at that church, uh, abounding grace, um, in Jonesboro at that church, I started leading worship with the same guy who had come to charity that first time. Um, and, uh, with that worship band and who I was like, Oh my goodness, this is horrible. You know, actually he, he started leading worship with me at, uh, at abounding grace. And he became one of my closest friends and he still, I mean, he, he just, it's amazing how God did that. And it's funny how that all worked, you know, just a big full circle, but. That is awesome. That is, that is, that is amazing how God brings you. And, and, you know, you're, you, we're all still growing. We're all still, you know, we're all still in some ways to healing. And, and so it's, you know, hearing your story is, is just, I don't know. It's, it's, it's refreshing. It's, it's like, man, God's still doing stuff. It's, it's always great to hear testimonies that God's still working in, in people's lives and families and churches, because your story isn't just, it's, it's Kyle's story, but it's also, uh, the Kinser family story. It's also the story of, of how God has moved in different people's lives in these churches that you've ministered to as well. Um, man, it's just been incredible seeing God move and, and move us. And, and so the church we're at now, um, I just, uh, it was during COVID, right? And they, they took a step of faith to try to establish a second campus, um, during COVID, during the pandemic. And I just contacted the pastor, to see if they were, uh, needing any help or, um, with that. And so, um, that God just moved us over there and, um, still have great connections and fellowship with, with abounding grace and pastor Kevin Morris there. And, and so that's, uh, that, that's just kind of how, how God moved us. And, um, but it's crazy because during COVID, you know, most, most churches still are just now opening them up, opening up children's services. And, and with five kids, it's either me in the service or Rachel in the service without, you know, if we're, if we're not going to do children's ministry, but that church thankfully was, had opened, they just opened up their children's ministry. And there was never a, uh, you know, we never had to worry about COVID. There was never a spread of COVID or no, nothing like that while we were there. And since we've been there. And so that's just, it was great for our kids and for us and just what, what God had for us during this time. yeah. And so right now you, you're not on staff. You're just volunteer leading worship and, uh, you own your own business. Is that correct? Yeah, I do. I, I pressure wash, uh, pressure washing business that God's blessed and able to work with, uh, some family members. Uh, one of my cousins up in West Virginia and, um, God's give us, uh, six employees and, um, just, just bless that. And, and, uh, it's just been incredible to see God do that. My heart's still for the ministry. You know, I'm praying that God would give me a church to pastor one day. And, uh, but it's, it's not been his time. And just, just so, uh, I'm just thankful for where I'm at. And it's been hard for me. I don't know about you guys just being raised in the IFB, but like, um, you know, you're kind of defined by your ministry. And so like, I, when I meet somebody that, you know, as an independent Baptist or one of my friends from college, like, I feel like I have to tell them I have some type of position or I've, I'm a failure, you know? Uh, but, uh, God's working me through that. And just realizing that all I need to do is just be, do what I can for him, where he's placed me and, um, keep my heart open, keep serving and keep spreading the gospel and keep studying his word. And, and he will, he'll take me where he wants me to be. I'm confident in that. But, uh, yeah. You know, in so many times we're defined, even when pastors get together, we talk about our budget and our buildings and our attendance and, and that, that sort of, well, where, you know, we're up in this and, and that's how it defines us. And personally, not even on a church level, it's that same thing. We, you know, where are you at now? Well, how's God using you? Are you still a youth pastor? You know, you know, we hear the story of brother Eric and their family and Johnny hunt, who I love listening to and, and how God used them and they didn't have to wait. They just went into their next stage of ministry. There was, there was no patiently waiting. Right. And we sometimes hear those stories and that's the feeling that we get is I shouldn't have to wait. If I'm waiting, there's something wrong. Yeah. And God still allows us to be like a David that had to wait in the mountains and, and he hadn't yet fully been where he wanted to, wanted to be at. And we can take those stories and it can be an encouraging to us to know that we can be patiently waiting. You know, I went through three years of that, two years of that. When we first moved back to North Carolina of just waiting on the Lord. Yeah. And we wasn't where we wanted to be or where I wanted to be, man, I wanted to be in the ministry so bad. I hated, I hated when people said, Hey, what are you doing now? And I would see someone from college while I'm working at Chick-fil-A. It was so, it was so humbling because then I went to Bible college, my desires to be preaching and being in the ministry somewhere. And because I didn't have that identity in the ministry, I felt just like a loser. I felt just, but I understood, man, I was making a difference there and I still talk to those people that I worked with and some of the teenagers that we, that I did work with and I invested in, you know, even at that, at that place of business, God still used us. I could have not had a, I could have had a bad attitude. And, and those people that I was with would have seen a pastor. Yeah. Who had a bad attitude, but I had a good attitude in that time and I was able to reach it and really invest some time, even in that small ministry there is what it was. and John, I don't know about you, but I think that one of the biggest problems with the abuse of pastoral authority is that these pastors, they're never get outside their circle. Like they never have those friendships. Like, like James was talking about, like a Chick-fil-A or just people that are not in the church. And so they never get to have that influence on others who, who do not think exactly like they do, who are not directly influenced by them. Yeah, no, I, well, it's, it's, it's like I was, I was saying earlier, it's an empire. You build an empire and, and, you know, interesting enough, we're sitting here talking like, and, and I, I totally agree with the rest, the other two, uh, you know, you, you two guys, because, you know, I struggled the same way with finding my identity and whether I was in full-time ministry and working at a car lot for, you know, still, I still am for the past seven years, uh, part-time, you know, by vocationally. And, you know, I did have the bad attitude. I was, I mean, there were days where I was just like, what the heck am I doing wasting my life here? And, you know, not recognizing God's sovereignty over where he has placed me in this life situation and missing opportunities to be his light to other people while having that bad attitude and, and that work day. And right there, guys, is where we're going to cut off part one today. We are going to be back with you next week with, uh, Kyle Kinzer. We're going to be talking about this, uh, crucial subject of pastoral authority, or as James likes to call it, pastoral superiority. And, uh, we're excited about the material that we have for you next week. Uh, thank you for, uh, listening to the podcast, liking and subscribing, sharing it on social media. And until next week to God, not your identity in the ministry, be the glory. Oh, Thank you. Thank you.

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