186. Life Under Roloff - The Jason Tackett Story

Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. Listen, we've been working hard to bring lots of content for you, and we hope you have enjoyed these last couple of weeks of our Fundamental Footprints. We are so excited about looking at the future of fundamentalism, and today is Thursday, September 11th. We are looking at celebrating America today, Patriotic Day, I believe is what it is on the calendar. You know, this was a day that will live in infamy in my mind. I was in seventh grade when this day happened, when I was just a young child, and I saw one of the towers fall there. And so hopefully you remember that a little bit. We don't talk a lot about politics on this episode, on this podcast. But we do want to share just a couple of things with you. And today's interview, I have been excited about this, and we'll share some more about it in a minute. 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And so I want to personally thank you for listening, for sharing this content. For being a faithful listener, many people share our content on our different, I put out six or seven posts every time it comes out. And a lot of you share it. A lot of you like it, comment on it. Those are always great things. And I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. We don't do this for the money. We do this to help people. We do this to be an encouragement to people as they go through their journey. I know what it's like personally to be on an island. To be stuck with no one to hear, no one to listen to. And so I want you to know that we are here for you. Our podcast is here for you. Me and Brett are real people. We're real pastors. We have real families. And we care very deeply about your spiritual life and the spiritual life of our churches. And so if you ever have a question, comment, concern, message me directly. Message Brett. Reach out to us. We would love to handle that. If your story has been impacted and you want to come on, we never want to get away from people sharing their stories. We're going to give content. We're going to give information. But the heart of our podcast is you sharing your story. And you sharing what the Lord has done in your life. Whether that's the pain, whether that's the trial, whether that's the victories, whatever it may be, we want you to come on. We want you to share that. And so reach out to us. Let us know. Maybe we've shared a story of a person, an influential figure that you sat under or we're going to share some people that you sat under. And you want to say, you know, my life has been impacted by that person. And I want to share how that was impacted. Come on. Talk to us. We'll line you up and be a great time for you to be able to share. Today, we've got an interview with a guy named Jason Tackett. Jason Tackett, he's an author. We were able to be connected through some mutual friends. And he's going to come on. He's wrote three books through Wiff and Sock Publishing. He's also a pastor, preacher, evangelist. And so a lot of open air evangelism that he does. But the interesting thing about Jason, and we're going to talk about it in our interview, is he was under Roloff, one of Roloff's homes. He was under Ruckman. And he's had a journey in independent fundamental Baptist movement. And so we hope you enjoyed this episode. We hope you enjoyed this week with two interviews and a wonderful time to be together. As always, if you need anything, we're here for you. And we thank you for listening. We value your time. And we know this will be a beneficial episode today. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Let grace begin. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the podcast. Welcome back to an interview today that we've got with Mr. Jason Tackett. And he reached out to us through a mutual friend. You guys may know him, John Holyfield. He roomed with him on an outreach event at the Super Bowl. And how they got connected. And his publisher reached out to me and said, hey, I know you guys have a podcast. Would you guys be willing to interview him? So at the end of the episode, we're going to sort of talk about his writing and his books. But he's had many of years under Lester Wolof. And we're in our Fundamental Footprint series anyways. And also spent some time under Ruckman. And so we wanted to have him come on and share some personal experience with those two individuals. And then also spend some time talking about his writing. And so, Jason, welcome to the show. Why don't you give our listeners just sort of a brief background of who you are, where you came from, and how many kids, marriage, all that fun stuff, and just sort of give them a history of who you are. Okay. Well, thank you, James, for the invite on here. As far as my background, I am a preacher's kid and a preacher's grandkid. It just kind of ran into the bloodline there for a really long while. But my background, my family was saved really under the influence of the BBFI. So they, in the late 60s and 70s, my grandpa and his entire, and my dad and all the siblings were saved under related ministries. So of churches that came out from the Bible College over there in Springfield. And if you're not super familiar with that aspect, they are kind of a more liberal wing of fundamentalism, or at least they were. Sure, they weren't necessarily as rabid as some of the other fundamentalists, but they were very missionary minded. So my father, my grandfather, all of them went through Baptist Bible College. My grandfather ended up becoming, planning a church in Moorhead, Kentucky, that my father, after I was born, actually moved in the late 70s and became the assistant pastor there under my grandfather. So I grew up under that realm of fundamentalism. So growing up, I was what you would call the prototypical preacher's kid. I rebelled, and I rebelled in very pronounced ways, and went off into some very hurtful addictions for many years. And I was almost 22 years old in 1999, where due to a loving family who's constantly reaching out to me and trying to bring me to Christ, taking away my Christian moniker that I kept saying I had and asking me to examine myself, both my mother and my father and some others, and some other things that were happening were drawing me to want to change my life. They recommended that I go down to Roloff's ministry. Of course, Roloff had been dead since 1982. This is 1999. His assistant pastor, Wiley Cameron, was the man that was still heading the realm at that time. Due to the fact that the Lord was already dealing with me at that point in time, shortly after I arrived there, I made a profession of faith. And the fact that I was wanting to follow the Lord probably changed a lot of my view of the place. And I know that there's a lot of people that have really bad memories of what they call the farm. But it was also where I started cutting my teeth in ministry. As far as family goes, since being saved, I had two boys that are now both adults now. One's 22 and one is 19. They're both in college at this point in time. I raised them as a single parent after, and that gets me connected with some of my connections, especially the Rockman side of this. But after a short-lived marriage, I ended up raising them as a single parent. But I have since married. I married again in 2019 to my lovely wife, Holly. We now have two children. So besides a 22-year-old and a 19-year-old, I also now have a 5-year-old that just started kindergarten this week and a 3-year-old girl. I've never had a girl before, so that's completely different. And that's where I'm at. Gotcha. Well, great. Thanks for that. So you said you went to Bible Baptist in Springfield, which is now Mission University. Mark Meloni, is that the same one? Is that the same one we're talking about? Yeah, I saw that they changed your name. Now, I didn't go to BBC Baptist Bible College. That was my grandfather and my father. That was just kind of the flavor of fundamentalism that I grew up under. Okay. So my grandfather was very much a fellowship man. So a lot of those old-time fundamentalists were in and out of my grandpa's church when he was still pastor there all the time. So that was a lot of the strict doctrinal stances were part of that. Not as rabid as some of the later manifestations. But a lot of the strict standards as well were kind of instilled, especially under my grandfather. Not as much under my father. My father was not a fellowship man at all. He was, especially when he took over as pastor of the church, he was about his local church and really didn't affiliate much outside of it, which ended up being a great blessing to me later on in life. He didn't carry as much of the baggage in that. So, yeah, Mission University was Mark Millione, the new leader there, a couple years ago at a meetup in Bourbon. And we got to hang out in Bourbon, Missouri with him and had a great time. And so I wasn't very familiar with Bible Baptist at all until then. And now they've moved on to Mission University. Yeah, I saw that they changed your name and that was interesting. Maybe it's a kind of a move away from. Yeah, I think it is. And it's sort of moving more toward the center position and not the far right of legalism. And the RFP has done a interview with him and the Recovering Fundamentals podcast has done an interview with Mark Millione and talking through that transition. And it was a really good interview. They did. And so I appreciate that. So tell me about your time growing up in the IFB leading into going into a roll off. You mentioned it a little bit, but I want to sort of share that and then sort of go into your time with the roll off ministries there. Well, like I said, I was I became the prototypical preacher's child, preacher's kid. I had rebelled and rebelled very early in my life. There was some trauma specifically related to members of the specific members of the church that may have underlined some of my rebellion and kind of hatred that developed in my heart towards the things of God. But around eighth grade, I. That rebellion started becoming very manifest in in drug use, things of that nature. And that was something I pursued all the way up seven, eight years, I guess, until until until the time of my salvation. My dad took over the church, like I said, in 1990. That he he he was a fundamentalist as far as a lot of the a lot of the a lot of the a lot of the things that you would. You would you would relate to that is. But. At the same time, he was softening and growing on a lot of things throughout those years. And so my experience all the way through high school, all the way through the early years of adulthood was was just running in that rebellion. And my family constantly trying to help me and me being resistant to that help and just continually to run away from the Lord until I think I think it was right around my 21st birthday. The Lord started convicting me of my sin. And oddly enough, I was sitting in a diner at 3 a.m. And it was a it was a fundamentalist truck driver that was passing out, passing out tracks about the end times that caused me and a friend to start talking about the Bible. And he reminded me and I was lost at the time. But apparently I gave him a Bible all those years ago when we started talking about the end times. He was showing that to me online. But that's neither here nor there. So I went through months of conviction. I remember my mom. I mean, to find me one day when I was at. At a. Well, for lack of a better term, a drug dealer's house. And she found me there and started asking me questions about if I'm really a Christian. And that that hit me really hard. And I started examining my life in about two or three months later. August of 1999. I. Had already decided I wanted to change. I wanted to. I wanted to start doing something. I was tired of where I was at. And they suggested the suggested I go down to Roloff's. And that's how I ended up down there. So. And like I said, not not too many hours after I got there. Um. Um. I would say this when I repented. And turned to Christ. And. And. Have continued ever since. Yeah. So tell us about your time in the Roloff homes. I grew up listening to Lester Roloff. Uh. Uh. Lots of men that I was under. Uh. Were influenced by him. Um. But. You know. At the same time. Didn't really know a lot. I mean. He was. He was. He passed away. You know. When I was a young kid. So there wasn't a lot of personal interaction with him. Uh. As your time down there. Uh. Was there a lot of reference to Lester Roloff? Did they do a lot of. Sort of repeated of what he was doing? Was there a lot. Uh. Just sort of tell your time of what it was like. While you're down there in the home. Well. My. I'm like you. My. Uh. My exposure to Lester Roloff. Goes back very early in my life. In fact. Uh. I didn't know he would later be my pastor. But I remember. The Camerons. Wiley Cameron and his wife. Uh. Coming to our church. With a group of girls. Uh. To sing for us. And I remember the testimonies I gave. I also remember them accidentally running over my dad's pine trees. When they were trying to maneuver the big bus. Uh. So. I. I. I grew up knowing of Lester Roloff. I actually think Lester Roloff was probably. The last. Big tent. Uh. Fundamentalist figure. Um. In. In fundamentalism. As a movement. Uh. And. You might be able to think of someone after him. But you had everyone from. Everyone from Jack Hiles. Lee Robinson. And everybody was rallying around Lester Roloff. Uh. You also had reformed folks like Rush Dooney and others that were rallying around him. Um. For those that may not be familiar with Lester Roloff. Um. He was very. He was very. He. He was. He was about. Almost building this cultural. Culture. Of. What he. Of Christianity. There on. And. That. Then the farm. Where. Where he had these homes for men. Women. Boys. Girls. Became that lightning rod of what he was trying to do. He. It. It. It. It was the 70s. You know. When that was happening. And I was. I was not around at that point. But. But. That. Culture. Was still the culture. I remember stepping into. When I moved down there. Uh. You can almost call it a. Homesteading culture. Almost. You were. When you went there. You worked with your hands. Six days a week. You worked really hard. Uh. You were growing your own food. Making your own bread. Uh. You know. I mean. All that kind of. Almost like. Almost like a. A type of. Communal living. Almost. Was the experience. Uh. He. Lester Roloff. Was all about. Uh. Living more naturally. Uh. As far as. Uh. Some of his big works. That people still pass around today. Is his little pamphlet. Or little booklet. Food. Fasting and faith. Um. About eating. Whole foods. And. And fasting on a regular. Basis. And that being. Uh. Impetus for you. Growing in faith. So that was the culture. I stepped into. Still under Wally Cameron. Um. In 1999. Uh. It was a culture shift. For me. Um. And as far as. Lester Roloff. I. We're. We're going to get into. Roloff. And I. And I think there's a stark. Contrast. I would not say. That they were necessarily. Outside of the cultural. Malay. And. Uh. That was around the place. Uh. We're going to grow. Our own food. We're going to live on our own. We're going to do all this stuff. Uh. And outside of. Those teachings. Surrounding that. You. He wasn't. He wasn't set up. As. As. As. A singular voice. You need to listen to. But with that being said. Uh. When we woke up in the morning. I was staying at. At the home. Called the lighthouse. When we woke up in the morning. And went to breakfast. Uh. They were playing. The. The. The. The. Uh. Oh my goodness. My. My mind just went blank. The family altar program. So you were listening to Lester Roloff. When you woke up. You were listening to. Every. Every time they were broadcasting. Lester Roloff. It was just. What they did. So he loomed large. And he. Kind of set the tone. For. The kind of culture. That. That the place had. Um. Self-sustaining. Uh. Homesteading. Kind of culture. Um. But. It did. But like I said. There will be a stark difference. Between him and figures. That would. Later come after him. As far as. Holding him. As. As this. Infallible source. Yeah. I don't. One of the. Uh. Things that has always. Struck me with. Lester Roloff. Is. You know. He didn't have a Bible college. That I could tell. He may have had a little institute. Or something. But his. Reach and influence. Mm-hmm. Went into these colleges. And. Being able to. Um. Have these influences. Over these other. Organizations. To give. He was doing. Was incredible. Like. The way. Good. Fundraise. And. Bring people in. And. Bring some of these things in. Uh. Was. Was. Always. Just fascinating to me. To see. How he did that. Um. Was. The last question. I sort of want to ask. Is. The environment. That you were around there. Under Lester Roloff. Was it the typical. Legalistic environment. Um. Yeah. Or had things changed. I mean. This is a couple years. After Roloff had died. Had things began changing. Or was it still that. You know. Very oppressive. Nature. Yes. And no. Um. And like I said. First. First. My experience. Was. As someone. Before I even got there. Was. Was. Desirous. To. Turn my life around. And serve the Lord. I can. I can see. Like. Like I've seen. Some of the interviews. Some of the things. That people put out. Even ones that I knew. Of some. Horrific experiences. That they had here. Had that. Had there. Um. And I can see. A lot of truth. In what they had say. I can see. That it could create. That. That it had a tendency. To create. An oppressive. Environment. For those. That had no interest. At all. In following the Lord. Um. And. And I. So. So. It's. It's almost. I once compared it to. Have you ever seen the show. Lost. Yes. There's. There's this island there. And you never really figure out. What the island is. Uh. And everybody's having these experiences. Some of them are wonderful. Life-changing experiences. But many of them are not. And. Whatever. The island happened to have been. It was the most significant point. In. In probably all of their lives. And. In for good. Or for bad. And. That's always kind of the analogy. I go to there. I can see. How. Some people. Had. Um. Had some trauma. From it. It was. And. With that being said. Brother Cameron. I still hold him. In very high regard. In my own growth. As. As. As a. You. As a new Christian. Um. He. Was. Fundamentalistic. But he was also. Open-minded. Theologically. And he was. Feeding me books. From Puritans. And. And. And things of that nature. That really helped me to grow. And was encouraging me to grow. In certain aspects. Um. But. There were people around him. That were far more fundamentalistic. In fact. That's really. One of the. One of the. One of the. The avenues. That I. Got into. Ruckmanism. With. With some of the people. There. That were. Taking positions. You know. Um. But. Yeah. It was fundamentalistic. And. And legalistic. In many ways. Um. You have this idea. Um. Um. Of the need to. of the need to culturally conform to this standard, this standard, this standard, even if you don't believe it, why you're here, you're going to do it because this is what Christianity looks like. And when you take a heart that does not, when that, that does not want anything to do with Christ or at least anything to do with those, those standards and you force it upon them. And then you enforce those rules. Then, then it was a recipe for, for some very bad experiences to happen. If I, I don't know how else to say that. And I know why I was down there. I, they were sued. And I ended up getting somewhat involved in that lawsuit as well due to some allegations that were made against, against the homes at that time. And there, there, there, there were some, there were some things that even, even in those situations that you can look back and you say, yeah, those things shouldn't have been happening. Uh, and, and we're not good that they did happen. Yeah, absolutely. I think it goes back to what we talk about often. The, the preaching of the outward sanctification versus the inward sanctification. If, as long as you get the outside looking right, everything else is going to be fine and not necessarily working on the heart. And the Lord desires for us. Um, and so I, I know the roll off homes have been open to a lot of, uh, scandals and abuse, uh, over the year or any of that that you ever saw while you were there. Um, as far as the abusing of the women and the girls that were in the home, um, were you ever part of any of that? Well, like I said, I was involved in a lawsuit, uh, that kind of did get blown out of proportion a little bit just because, well, you have to go back to what happened with roll off in the seventies and why he was the big tent figure in fundamentalism that he became was because he was the man standing up against the state. So he can minister to these people, specifically children in need. And he had these homes, the, uh, anchor home for boys, the Rebecca home for girls, uh, that he was trying to run. And he refused to do so without, with a state, without a state license. And that's what had, the state authorities coming in and all these people from Hiles Anderson, the rush, the rush Dooney, all coming to his side. Um, and that ended up getting the homes closed. So fast forward to 1999 or 1998 prior, just prior to us getting me getting there. Um, George W. Bush, who was going to be running for president, allowed for those, those homes to open back up the children's homes. The adult homes have been operating all that time. So, politically, all eyes were up on it. And then that was part, part of it. I will say, as far as my knowledge in the men's home, um, what you have, uh, you, you, if you think about the Stanford prison experiment, uh, where, where the part of the people were, and I can't remember all the, the, the, uh, points of that, but, but the volunteers for that experiment, some of them played guards and some of them played the prisoners and, and those that were given authority as guards, uh, would abuse the prisoners and become abusive towards them. Almost naturally. There's something in the human heart. I don't have, I did work. I was working in the lighthouse at that time, uh, that these events happened. And I will say that the, the, the model there was enforcement came from the people that were in the program as well. You would make them leaders and you would make them enforcers. And so in that aspect, um, you almost have something like the standard Stanford prison experiment where you are, you were allowing for, people that shouldn't be in charge to be in charge. Yeah. And abuses arise out of that. Now I don't have any direct knowledge of that in the girls home. I did, I was affiliated with the girls home, uh, when the state closed the home in 2000, during all of this, that was, was getting ready to come down upon them in 2000. I helped them remove, move the Rebecca girls home first to Missouri, a little place called devil's elbow. And, uh, and then I helped them move to, uh, pace Florida where they continued. Uh, and I guess now the people that were over it moved it back to Missouri at some point, um, maybe, uh, five or six years later, uh, I was over their school. So I don't have, I, but I was never a part of their day-to-day management, but it would not surprise me. But when I say, I hear these girls that were involved in those homes, say A, B and C happened, it was not contrary to how the entire system worked. In my experience, and what, what, what got wrapped up in that lawsuit was, uh, was just that the, the fellow people in the program were enforcing. And with a, with a nod and a wink from certain people that were managing over, they would enforce certain things and certain things would happen that, that, that were traumatic. So I, I would say a lot of that, uh, not all the allegations, uh, but, but, uh, I would say there was a little truth value in about all of it. Yeah. I think it's interesting that you bring up the Stanford prison experience, because oftentimes this is what this model leads to is a couple of individuals that have been given power. Um, and that goes to their head and they, you know, for the Stanford prison experiment, it was a 12 day or two week, um, experiment that they were going to do for two weeks and they had to end it after six days because the ones were the guards were just dehumanizing the ones that were, uh, because they had this author power that was given to them. Um, and so oftentimes this is what happens in these small legalistic environments is I'm in charge and I'm going to take over and control. And, you know, there's no consequence for me. So, you roll off and you saw several things there, uh, sort of talk about your transition, the years you left roll off and went to Ruckman and, and how that looked, the transition and going to Ruckman. Well, it overlaps a little bit. And, um, first of all, the people that I was helping as well, I was moving the Rebecca home from Corpus Christi to devil's elbow, Missouri to pace, Florida. uh, uh, they were graduates of the, so they were over the Rebecca home. They were graduates of PBI. That's, uh, Pensacola Bible Institute. That's Ruckman school. Uh, so I was introduced to it that, and of course the mother of my, the mother of my, uh, two older boys was, was, um, was heavily enmeshed in that whole, uh, movement. Uh, the past, the pastor, uh, from New Orleans, uh, I became, uh, by necessity close with was also, uh, one, a big, uh, a big advocate, a graduate of PBI and also, uh, also heavily enmeshed in that entire movement. So I, I got involved in it, uh, through those two avenues. Um, and while we were in Pace, Florida, we're just a hop, skip and a jump from, uh, Bible Baptist church and, and, uh, where PBI was, where Ruckman was preaching. And that's how I ended up attending there for about a year. Um, not because I, I, I, it immediately, my interactions with, uh, with Ruckmanism were immediately negative and which I'm glad about because it also helped me to start moving away from those kind of ideologies pretty quickly, uh, in my life, even though I took me a long time to figure out where I was going from there. Um, um, my, my adversity with them, uh, was, was constant. So. So what was your time or interaction? I guess I could say with Ruckman himself. Was you there while he was there or? Yes. Uh, well, I had interacted with Ruckman, uh, on three different occasions. Uh, two of them were just passing. And the third one was me, uh, attempting to, um, address a traumatic, I keep using that word traumatic. And I think it was a traumatic experience. that a young girl had via her interaction with other members and other attenders there. Uh, she was a, she was a mixed race young lady. Um, and, and there was a sense in which the very, my first interaction with, with the kind of fundamentalism that tended towards overt racism. Um, and, and, and, and very vocal, uh, was, was in that circle. And I attempted to bring that to his attention that a member of his church in the middle of the church, uh, was, uh, yelled out something very racist to right in front of this little girl, um, to which he simply brushed it off and said, yeah, yeah, okay. And just that, that I talked to him all about five minutes and didn't really get much of a response to it. And those were my only interact. Most of my interactions were with the, with the people around Ruckman. A lot of the young men, uh, there is unlike you, you asked the question about Roloff, uh, and his influence while, while, while, while there, um, Roloff had influence while I was there, but when it comes to the circles around Peter Ruckman, uh, it was, it was much more cult. Like it was much more, um, Ruckman is the one that has almost this infallible interpretation of all things. Uh, and, and it was, uh, it was a very odd as far as that goes. Yeah. So you had that interaction there for about a year. What happens after you leave Ruckman? Where, where do you go? Um, you, you talked about your, your first wife. Is, is that when y'all split up or, or what happened? No, that was, that was a few years later. Um, although that was, yeah, that, that, that was a few years later and had that after I left pace, Florida and late, Florida and late, and late 2002, I was actually ordained through people's Baptist and Corpus Christi. And then a month later, um, and a month later, I ended up moving back to Kentucky where I started helping my dad, uh, in his church. Um, and so that allowed me space. Um, and I still was continuously having interactions, uh, through that, um, through those relationships that continued for many years. But, uh, but thankfully under my father, that wasn't much of a fellowship man. Uh, I was, uh, I was, uh, a lot less in mesh with those brands of fundamentalism. If that answers your question, I can't remember. That was good. Uh, so leads up to now you, you've published a couple of books. You began writing and talking through some things. You've published three specific books, addiction of the gospel, addiction and the gospel sex and the gospel, and your newest one, hell in the gospel. So talk through your, your journey into writing and, uh, how this has helped you leaving legalism, leaving fundamentalism, how these, these projects of writing have helped you. Okay. Um, well, I have taken a job with, uh, which is very odd, uh, coming from, from roll offs. Uh, I was told by some of my, some of my, uh, former cohort there that I had joined the enemy, but I, I took a job in child protection services, uh, which I, which I still do today. Um, I remember sitting in a training one day, uh, and this all kinds of hat has to do with my, with my move away from, from fundamentalism and, and, and trying to, trying to ground myself more biblically, um, from, from the enmeshment of all these kind of false legalistic standards and things of that nature. Um, I began to question a lot of those things and that goes all the way back to my time at roll off. Um, and, and, and some things with, uh, with Ruckman as well, as far as the King James only ism and things of that nature. And a lot of, a lot of that I began to question and I wanted to study more for myself. So I engaged in this study for many years. And I remember sitting in a training for, for, for, for CPS and it was a week long training. And I wanted to start trying to encapsulate some of these things into hopefully to help my children after me. And, and so I started to try to write out why, what I believe and why I believe. And my, my thought was, this is going to be this grand work. And, and it was the, my first book that was self published. And I hope no one ever reads it because it's bad. But, but it also, it also helped me grow in, in, in my writing process. Um, the, the addiction in the gospel was my next book, uh, outside and, uh, outside of, uh, uh, one I wrote for my father after he died. Um, but, and that was just something I did self publish for the sake of my family. So they can have something that was a little character sketch. Um, but I wrote, wrote about addiction just because I, it was encountering it a lot, not only professionally, but also in ministry. And I was finding that there were, there were things in, in the, in the treatment culture that was, that was difficult to work through when you were presenting people, uh, their need of Jesus Christ. Um, and also I went through a lot of stuff with, uh, with my older boy's mother, uh, regarding those, those same issues. Uh, so it was, it was really about trying to help people get through, get through that treatment language. It was moving away from Christ, uh, to understanding their need of, of forgiveness and redemption, uh, that comes from Christ and Christ alone. Um, that was the first one I'd ever published through a publisher. And, uh, I was, uh, grateful to whip and stock, uh, publishing to be willing to work with me and do that. Uh, the next one, uh, was also, what was, was directed more to try and administer to my children. Uh, how do I talk about, how do I talk about sex and human sexuality in a way that is, that it's not meant to be, read by children. It's not like a how to book or anything, but, uh, so, but, but it is, um, it's meant to try to work through, uh, what the scriptures actually teach and, um, to, to work through that and everything that our culture is teaching to the contrary. And then the most recent one, um, came from, it was hell in the gospel. Uh, it's a third one I did through the publisher and, um, this grew out of, uh, I, since my oldest son moved out, uh, tried to meet with him once a week just to, it doesn't always happen. And then, especially since he moved an hour away, but, but I try to try still to make it happen. And while I was doing that, he's been struggling spiritually, walking through a lot of things. And one of the, the, one of the issues he keeps coming back to is the idea of hell and the idea of, uh, eternal torment and things of that nature. And while I was talking to him, I, I, I was, uh, trying to help reason out and talk through some of the, some of his objections. And, and they were, they were to, to, uh, my, I guess to a secular mind, they were very daunting questions and I wanted to try to do something and study them out. Um, and they did end up turning into this book and, uh, hopefully, hopefully the Lord will use it, uh, to minister to his questions. And that was my main goal, but also, I mean, it was ministering to me as I was writing it. And, and that's really about it as far as the writing process. That's great. Yeah. Uh, we'll definitely link those, uh, books in our show notes for people to grab ahold of. I know that that's going to be some great, I I've, I've got hell in the gospel and I'm looking forward to reading it. And I hope you, uh, our listeners will, we'll do that as well. Um, sort of last question I've gotten, then open up for any final thoughts is, uh, you know, you're, you're doing a lot of the open air, uh, ministry right now. Um, it's the, the super bowl, open air evangelism, and, uh, sort of tell us about what that is and what that's looked like. I know, uh, Ruckman, he was big on the, the street signs and street preaching. Has this sort of evolved from that or what, what's the drive for that? Uh, no, not, not necessarily. And it's funny that you bring that up because the very first time I ever street preached was in Corpus Christi and it was with the Brunkmanites that had, uh, that had, um, that had, uh, been part of that work. Uh, I remember us going downtown, uh, to the, to the bars on Saturday night in Corpus Christi. We do one week in front of the gay bar and then one week in front of the, front of the regular bar across the street. And it was interesting. And I remember doing that in Orleans and, uh, Pensacola as well. And that was always with the Brunkmanites. I was never really huge on doing street preaching in and of itself. I didn't mind to be a part of it. I was more interested in trying to have conversations. Um, that's actually how I met John. Uh, you mentioned that earlier. We, we happened to be rooming together when we were, uh, at, uh, at the, uh, Superbowl. Um, and that's the first time in a long time. I've done any kind of a street preaching open air. Uh, so that, that was a very, it was nice to be around some brethren, uh, that were, that were like-minded, uh, that were, that were Christ centered and really wanting to, really wanting just to give the gospel and went and, and, and tell the lost of their need of Christ. And, and I was grateful for that experience. I got involved in that because the pastor of, uh, church, uh, 30 minutes down the road had been involved with, um, with, um, um, a ministry that does, does street preaching, um, uh, at, uh, sporting events, uh, sports fan outreach, uh, and, and I would be happy to work with them again at any point in time, if able. But as far as open air, what my goal now, I stepped away from eldership, um, at my, at my church about two and a half years ago. Um, and mostly because I was driving 45 minutes to get there and I wasn't able to devote the time I needed to do to serve the people there the way they needed to be. Uh, I wanted to kind of devote my life to taking the gospel out, uh, and I do, I do a lot of festivals and things and my, and surrounding areas. Mostly I'm not, again, I'm not opposed to street preaching, but it's more just trying to talk to people one-on-one, engaging conversations and, uh, and just present the gospel to them. And also wanting to focus on trying to encourage other Christians in that regard. Uh, what I'm seeing as I have conversations, especially right here in the Bible belt, and I'm sure down where you're at, it's the same. Uh, when I do get a chance to give people the gospel, um, almost inevitably when I share it with them, they'll say, I've never heard that before. And we're in the Bible belt and everybody's a Christian here. And yet when you share the gospel, no one's heard. And I've been encouraging some other pastors, um, as much as I can to, to, to take that, take the gospel again outside the walls of their church, go to where the lost are, uh, treat them respectfully, treat them with kindness, uh, and ask them if you can share Christ with them. And, and, and because without faith come without a preacher going, they're never going to hear. And, and, uh, so that's kind of what I'm devoting this latter part of my life to doing is studying the writing, but also the taking the gospel out. I love it. I love the, uh, what you're doing. And, uh, with the CPA, with the CPS service and helping out children. It's a, it's a great thing. We're, we're commended to do that, to take care of the widows and the orphans and part of what you're doing. And I applaud you for that. And, uh, thank you for your work there. Any final words, maybe you got, or a thought in your heart you want to share or, uh, any final things? Um, well, I do appreciate your time. It was really good to meet you, uh, brother. Uh, it's, um, as far as final thoughts, uh, we, in this line of thought regarding roll off and, and Rockman and, and figures like that. I think it's, I think it's so easy to, to, to almost to fall into that line where you, you were, you're like the children of Israel saying, let Moses go up for us and let him tell us what we need to believe and what we need to do. Um, I think it's important for, for us not to receive the word of God, men, but to receive the word of God. Um, one of the things that Christ brought forth was, um, uh, you reject the word of God because of the traditions of men. Yeah. And we can fall under that. Uh, we can follow and fall under that, uh, so easily. Uh, I've seen that in, in, in, in these movements where, where nothing is ever questioned and God is not sought. And his word is not sought as will is not sought. Uh, and it can, and when that is done, I think it's done often to devastating effects that we don't even realize. Um, and I always encourage people, uh, to seek God, to seek, to seek him through his word. Uh, and, and, and the question, is this what God's word actually teaches? And, uh, I think that's a really important and I'm thankful, um, that a, your podcast has been doing that for many years. I was actually introduced to your podcast back in 2020. So I, when I did get a chance to meet John, I'm like, Oh yeah, I've listened to that. And I remember your podcast was, uh, in the very beginning was, was, was one of you already at that point in time that was, um, that wasn't just ants asking the question is this biblical, but, but putting up a positive message. Uh, I remember back, uh, very early, you said, let's walk through, uh, this portion of scripture and see what the scriptures actually say about our liberty. And hence you have your name for freedom, uh, out of, out of Galatians. And, uh, so, so in that vein, I appreciate your work, um, the work that you faithfully been doing through the years. And, um, and yeah, that's my final word, I guess. Uh, we appreciate it. And it's always good to, uh, be able to talk and be able to talk through, uh, what we've been through. And, uh, so we appreciate you coming on today, Jason. And I know you've got a busy schedule, so we won't hold you much longer, but until next time to God, not the pastor, be the glory. I found my new name, found that good grace, found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance, found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since, I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the for freedom podcast. Oh, Oh, Oh, . Thank you.

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