187. The Future of Fundamentalism - Eric Capaci

9/18/202500:54:14

Episode Notes

In this episode of 4 Freedom Podcast, we sit down and discuss the Future of fundamentalism. We trace the Steps of Eric Capaci and the time that James was under his teaching.

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Transcript

Welcome Back and Episode Updates
welcome back to the 4-Freedom Podcast it is great to be back with you uh episode 180 something 187 maybe i don't know 186 it's been great i don't keep up with numbers like that until i edit them
uh it has been great to be with you uh just got back from a conference there in tennessee and uh got to make some great connections and get to meet some great people and excited about what we have
going on uh with a new endeavor we've got a new product launch we're gonna be talking about today in just a little bit uh brett you are knee knee deep neck deep whichever one you want to say in
crusade planning how are you doing my friend man things are going good um like you said we've been having to plan this crusade and uh it's been a good we're excited about it um we hope people come we
we've advertised from every conceivable angle um facebook and yard signs we have uh i've got a radio interview lined up uh on uh friday i'm gonna be on uh kicks 96 country uh talking about the crusade and a
couple other radio stations they're gonna run that on and um we've just done everything we can do to prepare for this uh then talking to some bands this morning we had our venue picked out and uh been picked
out for over a year and then the day we go in to clean it they stop us and say hey we need to get in there and replace some stuff and do some paints uh painting and sanding and
we're kind of like you know you've known that we were coming in here for a year why are you wait till we're ready to get in here i mean i've got a guy i've got a my technician ready
to get in there and run wires and install tvs getting ready for this thing and we had to tap the brakes on it so uh but hopefully we get in there pretty soon uh we've been talking to bands
and stuff and then man on top of that just uh church life just being a pastor past uh two days i put 350 miles on my truck just ministry miles and so um it's a lot of stuff going
on got school on top of that because i'm working on my master's um so it's a busy season but like my like i always say i'd rather do this than sit at the house i definitely rather do this
than go back to that oil chain shop um where i was before and so i am just happy where god has put me i'm glad i'm busy i'm glad i'm serving and i wouldn't rather be doing anything else
and but i'll tell you james the most important thing in my life right now at this moment is co-hosting the 4-Freedom Podcast with you i'm so glad to be here and i've been looking forward to this
all week yes sir love it hey big question big big question when they announce you on the radio is it going to be dr brett martin since you have your honorary doctorate hey i do have it i could
bring it up there and show them you should i think i think it'd be a big talking point and uh i think they need to make sure that everyone in the world knows that dr brett martin getting his
master's degree is there uh it's going to be a great time uh yeah we are excited as well we've been level metal to the pedal to the floor as well uh lord's been blessing uh we had uh a
Baptism and Salvation Discussion
young person reached out to me brett just yesterday and they said hey i want to get baptized and so i'm meeting with them sunday about salvation uh talking through that so excited about that um we had an unexpected
death in the church last week which has been uh putting everything into a tailspin but uh things are good god's been faithful the whole family was there and uh it's just been a blessing to to minister to them
uh but brett we've got some exciting things coming up i've been excited about this and and i'll sort of launch this new product that we're talking about and then let you talk about a couple other things but we
are excited about announcing a brand new product uh with our for freedom cigar line we are doing the four cigars and we've partnered with a soap company in tennessee and we've partnered with a mission organization in nicaragua and
we're going to do a soap bundle with coffee and cigars coffee cigar soap bundle um all together it's going to be each one of our cigars it's going to be a bar of soap and it's going to be
a bag of coffee um and part of this partnership is going to be actually going to help plant churches in nicaragua and support churches that are already in existence in nicaragua as well um and so part of the
proceeds of this is going to go to help them and uh what we're doing is we're going to do the four cigars uh bar soap and a bag of coffee for 65 and uh that's going to be an
awesome opportunity for you to support our ministry also be able to bless these two other organizations one this this brand new soap company that's this up and coming and then also our uh coffee company which is going to
be uh part of planting churches there and we're throwing in for the first five people the first five people that go on and place this order on the website once it's live we'll also receive a copy of me
and john's new book from freedom and that'll be for free on there and so this is just a complimentary copy for you for the first five so as soon as that's live here in the next couple of days
go on there make that purchase make that order and you'll be able to receive uh the the bundle of what we've got this would be a great birthday present great christmas present uh and also be able to support
the ministry and what we're doing i'll tell you that i remember last year um it was last basketball season so it might have been oh well over a year ago um i was sitting in a basketball game for
my boys and this idea popped in my head and it's like what if we did this had a box and put this in it and then i told you and you're like man that's good what if what if
we put this in it and did this in it and it was kind of a collaboration uh for these boxes we've been working on for a long time i tell you we've been trying to soap um it's great
soap man it it it was hard to pick the scents that um you know go in these boxes i'm on my last bar uh right now uh that i've been so i've been using it for a long time
now listen we're in this bundle we've got uh cigars we've got the soap and we've got the coffee now we're not telling you to use all three at the same time but we're also not going to stop you
from doing that that's right that's exactly right and uh it'd be a great thing for you uh we do also not promise that if you use this soap that you'll be more masculine um but legend says that by
using this soap uh you will be more masculine and uh your wife if you're married will find you more attractive and uh it'll be a great great success for your marriage if you do that that is that is
the common lore right now that is we've got two different uh uh right now two different uh the the smells of the soap we're using bourbon and we're using wild cherry i believe is the two that we've got
and uh so it'll just be a rotation of those as it goes if you order those um and uh we're excited about that we're excited about partnering with this new company in tennessee she her name is angela and
she's been making soap for a while this is the old school way man out of uh uh beef tallow and all the weird ways they make soap but man it's been great for my skin i've enjoyed using it
the brett i'm a coffee connoisseur you you can't see this because um you guys are just listening to us but uh behind me i have an espresso machine i've got a keurig i've ground my own beans and uh
i have been thoroughly enjoying this coffee that i've been using it's the best coffee that i've ever had um and so it's ground right there in nicaragua right there in yunatega and uh which is where our church plants
are are going to be at and uh so you're not going to get a better cup of coffee from anywhere else other than this coffee that we get fresh freshly made freshly ground um for you and so uh
Nicaragua Mission Trip Plans
we're excited about that oh yeah we're going we're going back our church is going back to nicaragua next july and uh it is uh and and you'd think you know july in central america is going to be hot
but actually it's one of the coolest times of the year uh but i've got special uh instructions to bring back the coffee and uh so we're definitely going to bring back some coffee it's really great coffee you're you're
gonna you're gonna want this box you know i mean just you know when it's delivered in the mailbox you open it up you hear the eagle screeching i know you know you open it just screams america it's the
for freedom uh package uh bundle and you're gonna be happy with it i promise you absolutely brett what else we got going on
let's see what we've got going on we've got our israel trip going on um we are uh going to israel um i know there's a lot of stuff in the news but it's perfectly safe right now uh to
be in israel there are tours on the ground and we want to let you know if you want to come with us uh just let us know drop us a line uh we've got our website up and uh
we are taking i think it's uh j it's last week of uh january first week of february of 2026 and uh we're we're going back to israel and we've got a few spots open and if you want to
go now is the time uh that's going to come time here pretty soon when our trip will be closed but if you ever thought about going i'm telling you it's going to be worth it it'll change the way
you read your bible it'll change the way you pray it'll just change everything about your spiritual life to be there and to see these things and to know that archaeology backs up the bible and gives it more legitimacy
than any other you know spiritual book uh that claims to be spiritual in the world to see these places they're real they exist archaeology backs up the bible 100 percent to walk on literal streets that you know for
a fact that jesus walked on to see the tiles in the synagogues where jesus you know jesus stood you know there's there's a synagogue in in magdala that's almost completely intact and you know jesus preached in that in
that synagogue he had to us and so um just to see those places to be on the sea of galilee it's just an amazing thing i would just please come to israel um if if you have any desire
to i guarantee you you're gonna love it uh but you you've got something coming up here pretty soon don't you too right yeah uh we've got this conference i just left from uh there in tennessee and uh excited
about that and uh being there with john uh get to set up with chance there and sell some cigars and have a good time selling the book um putting out some different little knickknacks we've had some people making
some things for us for the for the podcast just some random things that you'll never find online uh some coasters and cup holders and things like that uh so yeah we are excited about that is there something else i've got going on brett
i don't think so i think that's it yeah maybe you know uh yeah it all runs together um hey uh yeah january 30th through february 7th i believe those dates for israel uh come with us it's going to
be a wonderful wonderful time uh anything else brett we got going on that i can think of i think that pretty much covers all of our introductory stuff i think we've uh are just excited about this series that
ran man we've got some we've got some interviews already in the chamber we haven't pulled the trigger on it yet i i'm chomping at the bit i can't wait and uh so we're going to announce that soon so
stay tuned one one last thing you said that reminded me of this we we say it often if there's ever a time where you want to come on want to share your story maybe we've talked about a college
or a ministry or a person that was influential to you and you want to come and just share your story i appreciate steve last week and jason coming on and sharing their story we dropped next year interview for
you last week uh we'd love for you to come on we're going to be talking about some individuals over these next five to ten weeks of that are currently in ministry now and if you want to share your
story share your time with them or them we want you to have that opportunity this is not just me and brett on here talking this is a time where you can share you can experience you can tell your
experience and you can help others one of the things that that allows us in our healing journey is helping other people when we begin to help others it helps them grow but it also helps us in that same
journey and so we want to always give that opportunity for you to come on reach out to me reach out to brett and we'll try to get you scheduled for a time to talk about where you're at so
i think without that further ado let's jump into today's episode for freedom you set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released welcome
to the 4-Freedom Podcast this podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday christians with everyday issues i ain't saved by dress codes not by what i eat i'm covered in the righteousness washed from head
to feet no tally of tradition no man made code blood bought my freedom now i ride that road they clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise but my praise still ascends past the legalist cries christ plus nothing
that's the real math so miss me with your fence laws and your extra path he sat with sinners i'm sitting with saints sipping grace from the bottle no room for face i like one for liberty toast to the
king every ash a sermon death has lost its sting for freedom he set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released for freedom
he set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released let grace begin for freedom he set me free not for change not for
guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now here are your hosts james safeford and brett martin over the last couple of months we and really uh for the last season and a half really we've been talking about the footprints from the past
from J. Frank Norris, John R. Rice, Jack Howes, Lester Roloff, Lee Robertson,
all the way up to the final four that we just released with Ruckman, Roloff, Carl Malone, and Tom Hatch. And we talked through all of those. We covered the men. We covered the movements that they were part of. We've talked about the tracks that they left and how they forged their own journeys.
Interview Highlights and Stories
We were able to interview several people, J.C., Stephen, Jason, several others, that shared their story, shared their journey under some of these men and what that looked like.
Again, I don't know if you remember, we had a great conversation with James Spurgeon a couple of months ago. And from our interview and from our time talking about the Baptist Longview Temple there, he's now started his own podcast, doing a great job with that.
I don't know if you've listened to it, Brett, but the Texas Baptist Crucible podcast, what a great job he's doing over there.
Just someone sharing their journey and then feeling led to continue on and share more stories. We love seeing that. We love seeing what's going on there. And so, Brett, where are we going today?
What's going on? Well, you know, as we're wrapped up in all what you were saying, all that we've done, we're wrapped up, we're interviewing these people, we're talking about these footprints from the past.
One question just kept coming up that we talked about, and that was, what's next? Because fundamentalism isn't just history. I mean, it's still here today.
There are leaders today that are shaping what it's going to look like in the years to come. And so this is something that me and you have thought for. Yeah.
And I think what we've decided to entitle this, if you have looked at the header of the episode, is called The Future of Fundamentalism.
And how this begins to take what we've learned in the past, but begin to focus and shift our thoughts on men who are leading right now, who are alive, who are in the journey, who are doing things, who are producing content right now, men with colleges, men with churches, men with training programs.
These are the men we're going to look at. We're going to look at Paul Chappell and West Coast Baptist College.
We're going to look at Charlie Clark and Vision Baptist College up in New Jersey. We're going to look at Jeff Fugate in Commonwealth.
We're going to look at Jack Treber in Golden State and look at these four men specifically. But today, Brett, who are we going to talk about today? We are going to kick this off with someone that's taken a unique path. And that is Eric Capaci and Champion Christian College in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
And I'll tell you, James, the first time I ever laid eyes on Eric Capaci was at Howe Zanderson College. He got up to preach. He was I was attending college and he was preaching chapel. He got up to preach chapel and he just an animated guy.
He'll tell a story and just suck you in. He told a story about how he was going into the high rises in South Chicago.
And he had took it, take his tie off. His Bible was in his pocket. Some guys came around and started pushing him and start trying to jump him. And and so he pretended he knew karate and made the and made the made the karate noises and stances. And they backed up from him.
And it was hilarious. And his tie was falling out of his pocket. And they said, man, you should have put that tie on or that Bible. We didn't know you from the church. We left you alone. And so that was kind of my first my first inkling of of of Capaci.
And then later on, I dated somebody from that had, you know, was friends with someone from his church. And so I was, you know, visited Hot Springs a couple of times to see her and went to church there a little bit.
And so and plus I have the people that I grew up with. I all of my a lot of my younger friends from church. They all went to Champion. And so I've got several friends that, in fact, me, me and you have several acquaintances through Champion.
And so I've got a lot of connections to Champion. Yeah.
You know, Brett, as we begin thinking through Eric and his ministry, of course, he was raised Roman Catholic as an altar boy, saved at 12 years old, 13 years old. And we're going to give a little bit more of that later. But as he left House Anderson,
he had this desire, this overwhelming desire to plant a church. And so he moved his family back to Hot Springs, Arkansas, planted the church in 1992, which was Gospel White Baptist Church there. And he began as their lead pastor ever since.
He planted it with his brother, Brett. And they lived in a single wide trailer, a little three bedroom trailer. The two families lived together for many years, just making ends meet. And the church became the parent ministry behind where I went to college at, which is Champion Baptist College, now Champion Christian College.
That's right, Chad. Capace's background is useful to think about because he trained in the IFB world. His bio list degrees from House Anderson College, other evangelical training.
And, man, when you've got House Anderson on there, you don't need anything else, man. That's the creme de la creme right there. Yeah. I think he's got his honorary doctorate from House and from another college as well.
He's got two honorary doctorates. Oh, man. Well, he was ordained in 1990. He spent decades as a church planter, pastor, and eventually college founder and president. And, you know,
he's often described as very entrepreneurial. And you get that sense from him when you talk to him and you listen to him talk. He knows how to turn something around. He's got a good head on his shoulder. He's got a good sense about that. He's a builder. He thinks in terms of institutions and programs and events.
One thing I think about Eric, I think the guy knows how to cast vision. He can cast vision better than anybody else that I know. And that's the frame that when we analyze him, pastor, industrial entrepreneur, we want to put those together.
Fans point to growth and outreach. While critics point to style and personality-driven leadership.
And so some other things that we want to explore as we go through this. Yeah, I can definitely agree with all that, Brett. That as under Eric,
one of the things that I often would say as I was at Champion was he cast a vision so big and so grand that in order for it to be accomplished, the only way for it to happen was
for God to intercede and to work in that situation.
And, you know, growing up in a smaller church running, you know, 200, 150, 200 people, I did not get to ever see a grand, big vision like that. So going to Champion expanded my horizons.
I got to spend time with Eric while I was there with him. And, of course, my wife was reached through their bus ministry and went to the Christian school, went to the college, served underneath all the bus ministry.
And so, you know, being in that environment molded how I looked at ministry and how I did ministry.
One of the caveats that I'll say is the education that I got from Champion was probably not the best education ever.
Very, very shallow in their teaching, very shallow in their doctrine. They only ever taught one side of the story. They never allowed for debate.
They never allowed for growth in that context. But the ministry hands-on training, the physical ministry, laboring in the college, helping in the ministries, seeing that ministry is messy, seeing the time that it costs in ministry,
that if you're going to truly make a difference, you've got to love people and care for people.
The love that Eric had for people was one of the most amazing things that I took out of ministry while we were there that has stuck with me for my entire time. You mentioned, Brett, the storytelling that Eric had and still has to this day.
The way I tell stories and the way I preach is modeled after his style of preaching because it was just so ingrained in me for so many years, listening and hearing and having that audience drawn into the story
was just, I mean, I can still to my mind right now, go to those stories and go to those events that he had told because I remember them.
And so it was such a great, great time. One thing I want to mention as we continue looking forward, sort of the college side of it, the origin story of the history. The college was founded in 05 and it was out of the gospel light as a ministry and an extension of the ministry. We mentioned it was originally Champion Baptist Institute.
It was an institute first. And then a couple of years later, it became Champion Baptist College. And then as the college grew, they rebranded and became Champion Christian College. I believe that was in 2010. No, not 2010. I believe that was in 2015 when they changed their name to Champion Christian College.
It's a small ministry focused school. They offer associate's degrees,
bachelor degrees, and a couple of master level degrees as well. They've just recently expanded into their online presence as well. Brett, I want you to share sort of their institutional side of it.
Champion College Accreditation
What does it look like? Well, two institutional items to stress.
So, number one, we want to let you know that Champion did pursue and achieve national accreditation through tracks.
This is a milestone that they celebrate, they're proud of it, and they should be. And number two, the college marked itself as both doctrinally conservative and academically credible, which has set it a bit apart from many IFB schools that historically avoided outside accreditors.
Tracks granted full accreditation at a tracks meeting on November 5th. So, this is an accredited institution. And that's something that we need to stress and make known.
Yeah. One thing I'll make known from the inside is you may know the name Judson Mitchell. He was at Howes Anderson for many years. Do you remember that name? Do you know that name? Dr. Mitchell?
Okay. He may know after you. He went and worked at Commonwealth and helped start another Bible college as well.
But he and others often told us when we get accredited, because they were going through the tracks and accreditation while we were there, when we get accredited, all your degrees, they're going to be grandfathered in, and you're going to get this accredited degree as well.
That was all a lie. My degree is still just a piece of paper sitting right behind me. You can see it right there in the middle of my bookshelf. It's not accredited.
The way for my degree to actually be accredited through tracks is I would actually have to take a couple more classes and then re-graduate with a bachelor's degree in order for my degree to be accredited.
And so, that was often they would say, oh, you're paying for it now, but eventually it'll be accredited. It does not, did not do.
But they did have a dual aim. They were theologically conservative, and now they're academically accredited.
It's an important signpost for our series because it shows the model for how this IFB church that was rooted in this institution, it's no longer an IFB church. They're an SBC church now. They try to stay faithful to their convictions while stepping into a broader academic accountability.
And I think that's good for us. I think it's good for these colleges to take that step forward and say, hey, we are going to provide a quality education that's Christian, that's biblical, but also go through the proper channels.
Now, you mentioned something that we need to bring to everybody's attention, and that is that they did pivot into being Southern Baptist, which that actually pivots how we categorize Capacity.
In the late 2010s, the church voted to join the Southern Baptist Convention. That vote was publicly celebrated on social feeds and noted by other SBC leaders. And it wasn't like a cosmetic change.
Joining the SBC signals a formal cooperative posture with a denominational network that most IFB churches historically avoided. This was a big shift. This was a direction change.
And it changes how we're going to categorize Eric Capacity as compared to these other leaders in fundamentalism that we're going to go over. He took a stand. He went in a different direction. He stepped out of the IFB. And we definitely want to let people know that.
Yeah, I've got a, it's not a diploma, but it was a message that Eric preached. It was either my first or second year of college. He would always do the first chapel message, and he would lay out the foundation. One year, he did a breakfast of champions, Wheaties.
And he put, like, champion on there. And he gave everybody a box of cereal. By the time I graduated, there were guys that had boxes of Wheaties cereal that they had gotten that first year.
They never opened and they never ate that, like, maggots were growing out of. And it was disgusting. But one year, he preached a message on what we believe and the biblical foundation of champion. And it was eight or ten points. And it was like a diploma. It looked almost like a diploma.
And he said, this is what we believe. This is what we stand for. Or he said, I don't care if champion goes liberal one day. I don't care if these things happen.
But if we ever go against these things, and one of them was like, we're going to always use the King James Bible. You can send this back.
You can send these things back. We're going to stand true on the word of God. And he said those things, and that was great. But now, okay, they're not there anymore. They're not King James only.
They're SBC. And so you see this progression of where he was at. You see this progression of where champion was once at, where they were just spouting certain things. But now they have, hopefully, by the grace of God, and I've had multiple conversations with Eric. We sat down briefly after,
recently after they had joined the SBC. I was already an SBC pastor. And my wife went out there. We had someone watch our kids. And me and Ms. Carol Ann and Eric and my wife, we all went.
And we sat down, and we had lunch one day. And I just said, hey, tell me where you're at. My wife grew up in your church.
And she was told since she was a baby that the King James is the only way. And now her pastor is using the ESV or using something else. How do you justify that?
This is just questions that she's got. And this was during our questioning stage. And so we've had those conversations with him in private. And I think the move maps,
sort of the theological and the practical shift, they're more concerned with cooperation and broadening the evangelistic structure that they have. You'll hear Eric's testimony of wanting to help encourage smaller struggling churches, revitalize them.
He's willing to partner with SBC missions and the work of what it is and less likely of the separatist posture that he had in the beginning of the IFB practices.
By one measure, this is a healthy theological shift for them. And for some observers, this is a move away from isolationists and beginning to cooperate in a broader scope. Absolutely.
Now, one of the things we promise is we promise to cover controversies. And, you know, I look for scandals or legal cases tied to capacity or champion.
And look, we found no major public criminal or civil scandals out there. No verifiable arrest records, major lawsuits.
None of that surfaced. We did find instead two types of critical reactions you should know about.
And that is, first, a cultural and stylistic critiques inside the IFB online forums, of course. You know, we can expect that. And reputational incidents that are more embarrassing than criminal.
And, you know, we'll lay that out. And if you want us to dig deeper into court records or stuff like that, we can do that. But, you know, for now, this is all we're able to kind of dig up. Yeah.
And so being on the inside, I know there are some allegations. I know there are some things that happened at Champion. Those aren't my stories to tell. There are people out there that have a story and have a voice that they want to share.
I want to challenge you. Reach out to us. And this is at any college. This is at any organization out there. If you've been hurt and you want to share your story, let us know. There are our podcasts,
Eric Skorzenzki at the Preacher Voice Podcast. That's what he lives for. That's his whole motive of the podcast is expressing and sharing the criminal actions of the IFB.
And so we want to give some of those things. And we want to share some of the controversies and sort of criticisms. The first one is the IFB critiques of the theological shift that Brett mentioned.
Some of the old school IFB forums, the fighting fundamentalists and posters in that express frustration and even disappointment.
Right. Eric and Gospel White, they were the flagship. I mean, Eric, he had the fastest growing college. He had the largest first year attendance of any independent fundamental Baptist college that's ever been recorded that first year that they became a college.
They were growing. They were impacting their community. They were doing things that was the flagship model. Eric, he spoke 50 weeks out of the year at camps and crusades. Anyone who wanted to be in that IFB world, they flocked to be around Eric.
And now that he started college, it's like, hey, I want to be around that. I want to be part of his sphere of influence.
And so what happened was the Gospel White began to align with the SBC and within some of the IFB circles, they saw this as betrayal. They saw this as this man used his platform and now he is betraying us.
He's stabbing us in the back. We've got to be separatists. We've got the individual churches. And these conversations are loud. You can find them all over different places in different niche forums. As I mentioned, the Fighting Fundamentalists and various other places.
And people began to track this denominational move. And the pushback was primarily the theological, cultural. There was no legal pushback.
Right. And then we also talked about reputational hits. Apparently, Champions Basketball Program suffered a widely publicized, humiliating loss to Southern University. James' score was 116 to 12.
This game was in 2013. Made the national sports pages. You know, it's not a theological controversy. But the reason why we bring it up is because it has been used by critics to taunt or as a sign that smaller ministry colleges sometimes overreach into competitive arenas and they're unprepared for it.
And that's, you know, it's been widely circulated. It's part of the school's history. And that's kind of the only reason why we kind of bring it up. Yeah.
I think, and I remember watching part of this game, Brett, I think they went like almost 100 points before a champion ever scored a point, ever scored a basket.
It was such a bad game. And then finally, they put like their C team in and then champion scores like 12 points. It was so bad. It was so horrendous. It was so funny as well. I mean, you're watching these guys. I mean, it looks like high schoolers playing like my son's fifth grade team.
Like this is, I mean, it was, it was just humiliating. Baking together though, the factual controversies are more, are mostly reputable and the theological rather than the criminal.
The biggest controversy in the broad sense is the shift of affiliation and posture. And posture that provides heat along the online presence of the IFB purist.
And so what we're trying to get to the point of, of really saying that this is as we go through different things, there's going to be some pros and cons. And I've shared some of those pros and cons.
I've shared some of the legal side of it. Again, there's nothing, there's no criminal record. There's no court proceeding. There's no, there's nothing like that's been happening.
And so up until this point. And so if something like that were to happen, of course we would cover it. But, but what I want to share is from, from me personally, you know, we, I love champion. I love Eric.
Eric will always be one of my heroes. I wouldn't be where I met today without champion and without Eric.
I would not have the wife that I had. If he didn't plant this church in hot Springs, Arkansas, her family would not be changed the way it was changed. And so I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful for my heritage.
If I could go back and change some things, of course I would. But I'm thankful that we were able to be under that ministry at that specific time.
Fundamentalism's Future Signals
Exactly. And we, we want to kind of now shift and ask the question, what does Capaci tell us about fundamentalism's future?
And, you know, as we thought through this, he gives us a couple of signals. The first one is institutional entrepreneurship,
you know, leaders out there who can build churches in the multi-campus ministries and then found colleges. They're, they're shaping the supply chain for future pastors and missionaries.
And, and what Eric Capaci's model does is it demonstrates how to do that. And, you know, that's one thing that, you know, we've got, we've got churches, we've got pastors retiring. We don't have enough pastors to replace them.
And it's some, this is something that we have to think about, you know, and Eric's got a way to do that. He's got the way to funnel leaders into these positions. And so we need to step back and take a look at that.
And so the second one is willingness to compromise. Go ahead. Real quick.
One of the things that Dr. Mitchell often would say in our classes was if Eric Capaci and Brett Capaci were not believers and were in the real world, they would be leaders of the top 100 in the top 100 companies of the world.
And that's why church planting was so integral for him because it was just his DNA of who he was. Exactly. Second, willingness to compromise separatism for cooperation.
Capaci's move toward the SBC suggests some leaders matured out of isolation's IFB habits and see denominational partnership as a better vehicle for mission and sustainability. That's a theological and practical recalibration.
And, you know, I agree with this. One of the things that this come up on the RFP network the other day, I vented in there about something that, you know, had to do with a committee that I was on.
And there was there was a and for the most part, everybody was sympathetic to what I was saying. But there was a little bit of this pushback of, oh, you're in the SBC. That's IFB light and committees and organizations take away from the Lord.
And, you know, I I'm always going to push back against that because, you know, committees and organization doesn't have to take away from the Lord. It can actually help the mission grow faster.
And that's, you know, the SBC cooperative program is the fastest vehicle to get missionaries in the world to spread the gospel around this planet.
You know, the you know, it's the largest the SBC is the largest Protestant denomination in America. And just because it's a dominant denomination doesn't mean it's bad. Listen, if you want to be non-denominational, man, I'm I'm I'm happy for you. I think that's great.
I'm not I don't want to criticize you at all. But, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I think it's great as well. You know, as the SBC, I joined the convention because I believe in the process of what they do and that we can do more together than we can separate. Do I believe that the SBC is perfect? Absolutely. By no means. I do not believe that. Yes.
I believe there's got to be some accountability, some financial transparency, some things that we've been fighting for over the last couple of years. At the convention, I believe needs to happen.
But like you said, for someone who is on the mission field or looking to go on the mission field, the quickest way for them to get from the pew to the mission field is through the cooperative program. And our cooperative program dollars do that.
Our Annie Armstrong, a lot of offerings do that to support these people that are going where we can't go and have this desire, this God given vision to go there. And so if we can partner and we can help in that way, absolutely.
I was talking to just a missionary just the other day.
I had lunch with them and I asked them how long they'd been on deputation. And they said, we've been trying to raise support to get to the mission field for over three years. We still have language that we're having to go through because we've been traveling so much.
And they said, we may not actually get to the field for another year to two years. You're looking at five years of deputation, raising support,
miles on a vehicle, heartache that you're going to go through. I mean, imagine a young person that's in that family.
Let's say they're 12 years old. But the family is going to have raised support and finally get to the field and they're going to go off to college and they're never going to step foot in this mission field where if they would have just been able to get that funding,
get the training they needed and get on the field, they're going to have this child that's going to be there to help them to be able to maybe be the next generation that's going to be able to reach that next generation in that own ministry.
And so there's a lot there. There's a lot we can talk about. Deputation, it's such a taxing effort. On a family that is trying to raise support. And so, yeah,
this shift of going to the SBC, the partner together, the resources you have, the resources you give to one another, the cooperation you have with one another, it's vital to ministry.
And I believe that's why Eric did it. And there's some other reasons as well that I'll have liberty to talk about. But, yeah. So another one, our number three is accreditation and professionalization.
Champions Tracks accreditation shows a pathway for IFB-rooted schools to gain broader academic recognition without abandoning conservative theology.
That can change how students are trained and were graduate served. You know, that's right where we're at.
How many of our listeners, James, are just like you, have a degree from an IFB school that is unaccredited?
Our good friend Ashley Wynn had to go back to school, start from ground zero in order to get her teaching degree.
And so a lot, this is where a lot of our listeners are at. And, you know, I think this was a good change. It was going in the right direction. In fact, it was, you know, I talk about Trinity a lot in Jacksonville where I got my accredited bachelor from.
They used to be an IFB school. And because they transitioned, they had a pathway to help guys and, you know, people like us that have unaccredited degrees to get their accredited degree without starting back at square one.
I'll always be thankful to them for helping me out. And so this was definitely a move in the right direction for champion. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think this is a great thing for them. Sort of the pushback, especially from the classic IFB critiques, they showed that these shivs are not neutral. They label this as them as adaptive and unhealthy.
Some see this as adaptive and healthy. Some see this as a loss of conviction, right? They have forgotten the monuments that have been set up by their forefathers. The tension that begins to happen is the innovation versus preservation.
Are we going to innovate and move forward? Or are we going to just continue to preserve what was once there and never change, never grow, never do anything, and continue to do the same thing?
Because that's what Grandpa told us to do. And I believe this is going to be the drive that we see over the next decade or so. The drama that begins to happen over and over again in the IFB because they are pushing this narrative.
And what's going to happen is young people are going to say, listen, there's some innovative things out there. We can do some of these things that are going to allow our ministries to grow that isn't compromising, that isn't changing scripture, that isn't changing truth.
And I believe Eric has laid the way to say, and he went through some dark times.
When he left the independent fundamental Baptist movement, he was on the main stage. He was preaching at massive conferences.
He lost all of that. And so there was a definite, I'm taking a step in the right direction for the safety and future of what we're doing.
Exactly. And, you know, it's that kind of what you said earlier kind of reminds me of the old, all the IFB preachers, they preach in that message. Don't move the landmark of the ancestors, you know, and so don't move the traditions and stuff like that. So that's kind of a snapshot of Eric Capaces.
He's got IFB roots. He's got a builder mentality, college founder, accreditation. They achieved accreditation at their school.
And then, of course, the most notable thing is their move and shift into SBC life. There are no significant or sensational criminal scandals out there that we can find. There are cultural and reputational things that we've talked about.
But, you know, let me ask you, James, you went there in the IFB days. You've seen it today. It's going in the right direction.
Yeah, I believe the champion's going in the right direction. I think Eric's going in the right direction with the convention and having a group of people around him that are going to keep him accountable.
I love what he's doing with helping replant some churches in the area and investing in the Arkansas Hot Springs area, just giving revitalization of churches in the area.
I think he's doing some really good things. One of the big critiques of when I was there is everyone that was in James Spurgeon also said this about his time at Longview.
The church was there and the college was there, but the church and college were not of the city. The church and college were these transplant people that were coming there and building this ministry, but they weren't from there. Over the years,
Eric, he's always had a big bus ministry, but he's beginning to reach the people that are around him.
He's beginning to raise up leaders from the county, from the community, which is making his ministry stronger and better because he's got people that are there that are grounded, that are not just coming there for a job, but
they're living there with their families and they're loving the people and they're doing the right thing. And so I would say, yeah, those are great things. We are excited.
We're going to go ahead and let the cat out of the bag at this point. We do have Eric Capaci lined up for an interview for the next two weeks. We've got a two-part episode.
We sat down with him for over two hours and just picked his brain from everything you can imagine. I think it was 18 questions that we lined up.
When I was reading through some of the questions as we were prepping for it, Allison and John, they were like, you're going to do like a five-hour interview. You're asking so many questions.
I said, listen, we're getting him on here. We're going to just buckle down and we're going to ask questions and we're going to go.
And so two non-question segments that we're going to ask him.
And it's a great interview, a great time over the next couple of weeks that you're going to hear that. We're going to drop some clips, some promo clips over the next couple of weeks as well.
Promoting that, you'll sort of hear some teaser clips of what he's going to be saying and excited about that. But I think Eric is a provocative first step that we can use. He was the poster child for the classic IFB isolationism, right?
He was the one that was the energetic guy. They brought up for pastors conference. They had a youth rally. They'd bring Eric in.
And then all of a sudden, over time, when he was so isolated, he realized this isn't healthy for me. This isn't healthy for my family. And so there's got to be a better way out of this.
Closing Thoughts and Housekeeping
And so he began to transition, and he had this hybrid model of conservatism theologically while joining a cooperative denomination and beginning to see through this journey.
And so we hope you've enjoyed it. After we finished Eric, we're going to be jumping into Paul Chapel and West Coast Baptist College and the model they have there. Huge ministry out there. I've been there many different times.
And so if you want to, if you have a story, if you were part of West Coast or Paul Chapel, and I've got some personal stories as well. But if you want to come on and share your story, please reach out to us and let us know. So Brett.
Paul Chapel. He's even got some critics from the IFB even now. And so that's going to be an interesting subject to explore. Yeah. If listeners want source notes or anything we quote directly, we'll include links,
citations in the show notes. We can gather any audio or any clips you want to verify anything that we say. We're an open book.
If we say something inaccurate, call us out on it. That happened just a couple of weeks ago. We had to make a correction. We're not above that. Admitting we're human. We make mistakes. We're not above admitting when we say something wrong.
If something's wrong, we want you to call us out on it because we want to give you the most accurate information. But, man, I'll tell you, I have been chomping at the bit for that Eric Capaci interview for a long time. And I am so glad the time has finally arrived. Absolutely.
We can't wait to release it. Hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you, as always, have enjoyed it, share this with someone.
Like, review, rate it. We always appreciate those on Facebook that leave comments and leaving ratings on our iTunes.
It does help us out a little bit. Remember to go and check out our Freedom Bundle. First five that order, we'll get a free copy of our book. And excited about that. And until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace.
Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning. That has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the 4-Freedom Podcast.
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187. The Future of Fundamentalism - Eric Capaci

9/18/202500:54:14

The Future of Fundamentalism

Fundamental Footprints

Israel & the Holy Land

Episode Notes

In this episode of 4 Freedom Podcast, we sit down and discuss the Future of fundamentalism. We trace the Steps of Eric Capaci and the time that James was under his teaching.

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To purchase James New Book "From Brokenness to Freedom" a.co/d/c7UX3xT

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Transcript

Welcome Back and Episode Updates
welcome back to the 4-Freedom Podcast it is great to be back with you uh episode 180 something 187 maybe i don't know 186 it's been great i don't keep up with numbers like that until i edit them
uh it has been great to be with you uh just got back from a conference there in tennessee and uh got to make some great connections and get to meet some great people and excited about what we have
going on uh with a new endeavor we've got a new product launch we're gonna be talking about today in just a little bit uh brett you are knee knee deep neck deep whichever one you want to say in
crusade planning how are you doing my friend man things are going good um like you said we've been having to plan this crusade and uh it's been a good we're excited about it um we hope people come we
we've advertised from every conceivable angle um facebook and yard signs we have uh i've got a radio interview lined up uh on uh friday i'm gonna be on uh kicks 96 country uh talking about the crusade and a
couple other radio stations they're gonna run that on and um we've just done everything we can do to prepare for this uh then talking to some bands this morning we had our venue picked out and uh been picked
out for over a year and then the day we go in to clean it they stop us and say hey we need to get in there and replace some stuff and do some paints uh painting and sanding and
we're kind of like you know you've known that we were coming in here for a year why are you wait till we're ready to get in here i mean i've got a guy i've got a my technician ready
to get in there and run wires and install tvs getting ready for this thing and we had to tap the brakes on it so uh but hopefully we get in there pretty soon uh we've been talking to bands
and stuff and then man on top of that just uh church life just being a pastor past uh two days i put 350 miles on my truck just ministry miles and so um it's a lot of stuff going
on got school on top of that because i'm working on my master's um so it's a busy season but like my like i always say i'd rather do this than sit at the house i definitely rather do this
than go back to that oil chain shop um where i was before and so i am just happy where god has put me i'm glad i'm busy i'm glad i'm serving and i wouldn't rather be doing anything else
and but i'll tell you james the most important thing in my life right now at this moment is co-hosting the 4-Freedom Podcast with you i'm so glad to be here and i've been looking forward to this
all week yes sir love it hey big question big big question when they announce you on the radio is it going to be dr brett martin since you have your honorary doctorate hey i do have it i could
bring it up there and show them you should i think i think it'd be a big talking point and uh i think they need to make sure that everyone in the world knows that dr brett martin getting his
master's degree is there uh it's going to be a great time uh yeah we are excited as well we've been level metal to the pedal to the floor as well uh lord's been blessing uh we had uh a
Baptism and Salvation Discussion
young person reached out to me brett just yesterday and they said hey i want to get baptized and so i'm meeting with them sunday about salvation uh talking through that so excited about that um we had an unexpected
death in the church last week which has been uh putting everything into a tailspin but uh things are good god's been faithful the whole family was there and uh it's just been a blessing to to minister to them
uh but brett we've got some exciting things coming up i've been excited about this and and i'll sort of launch this new product that we're talking about and then let you talk about a couple other things but we
are excited about announcing a brand new product uh with our for freedom cigar line we are doing the four cigars and we've partnered with a soap company in tennessee and we've partnered with a mission organization in nicaragua and
we're going to do a soap bundle with coffee and cigars coffee cigar soap bundle um all together it's going to be each one of our cigars it's going to be a bar of soap and it's going to be
a bag of coffee um and part of this partnership is going to be actually going to help plant churches in nicaragua and support churches that are already in existence in nicaragua as well um and so part of the
proceeds of this is going to go to help them and uh what we're doing is we're going to do the four cigars uh bar soap and a bag of coffee for 65 and uh that's going to be an
awesome opportunity for you to support our ministry also be able to bless these two other organizations one this this brand new soap company that's this up and coming and then also our uh coffee company which is going to
be uh part of planting churches there and we're throwing in for the first five people the first five people that go on and place this order on the website once it's live we'll also receive a copy of me
and john's new book from freedom and that'll be for free on there and so this is just a complimentary copy for you for the first five so as soon as that's live here in the next couple of days
go on there make that purchase make that order and you'll be able to receive uh the the bundle of what we've got this would be a great birthday present great christmas present uh and also be able to support
the ministry and what we're doing i'll tell you that i remember last year um it was last basketball season so it might have been oh well over a year ago um i was sitting in a basketball game for
my boys and this idea popped in my head and it's like what if we did this had a box and put this in it and then i told you and you're like man that's good what if what if
we put this in it and did this in it and it was kind of a collaboration uh for these boxes we've been working on for a long time i tell you we've been trying to soap um it's great
soap man it it it was hard to pick the scents that um you know go in these boxes i'm on my last bar uh right now uh that i've been so i've been using it for a long time
now listen we're in this bundle we've got uh cigars we've got the soap and we've got the coffee now we're not telling you to use all three at the same time but we're also not going to stop you
from doing that that's right that's exactly right and uh it'd be a great thing for you uh we do also not promise that if you use this soap that you'll be more masculine um but legend says that by
using this soap uh you will be more masculine and uh your wife if you're married will find you more attractive and uh it'll be a great great success for your marriage if you do that that is that is
the common lore right now that is we've got two different uh uh right now two different uh the the smells of the soap we're using bourbon and we're using wild cherry i believe is the two that we've got
and uh so it'll just be a rotation of those as it goes if you order those um and uh we're excited about that we're excited about partnering with this new company in tennessee she her name is angela and
she's been making soap for a while this is the old school way man out of uh uh beef tallow and all the weird ways they make soap but man it's been great for my skin i've enjoyed using it
the brett i'm a coffee connoisseur you you can't see this because um you guys are just listening to us but uh behind me i have an espresso machine i've got a keurig i've ground my own beans and uh
i have been thoroughly enjoying this coffee that i've been using it's the best coffee that i've ever had um and so it's ground right there in nicaragua right there in yunatega and uh which is where our church plants
are are going to be at and uh so you're not going to get a better cup of coffee from anywhere else other than this coffee that we get fresh freshly made freshly ground um for you and so uh
Nicaragua Mission Trip Plans
we're excited about that oh yeah we're going we're going back our church is going back to nicaragua next july and uh it is uh and and you'd think you know july in central america is going to be hot
but actually it's one of the coolest times of the year uh but i've got special uh instructions to bring back the coffee and uh so we're definitely going to bring back some coffee it's really great coffee you're you're
gonna you're gonna want this box you know i mean just you know when it's delivered in the mailbox you open it up you hear the eagle screeching i know you know you open it just screams america it's the
for freedom uh package uh bundle and you're gonna be happy with it i promise you absolutely brett what else we got going on
let's see what we've got going on we've got our israel trip going on um we are uh going to israel um i know there's a lot of stuff in the news but it's perfectly safe right now uh to
be in israel there are tours on the ground and we want to let you know if you want to come with us uh just let us know drop us a line uh we've got our website up and uh
we are taking i think it's uh j it's last week of uh january first week of february of 2026 and uh we're we're going back to israel and we've got a few spots open and if you want to
go now is the time uh that's going to come time here pretty soon when our trip will be closed but if you ever thought about going i'm telling you it's going to be worth it it'll change the way
you read your bible it'll change the way you pray it'll just change everything about your spiritual life to be there and to see these things and to know that archaeology backs up the bible and gives it more legitimacy
than any other you know spiritual book uh that claims to be spiritual in the world to see these places they're real they exist archaeology backs up the bible 100 percent to walk on literal streets that you know for
a fact that jesus walked on to see the tiles in the synagogues where jesus you know jesus stood you know there's there's a synagogue in in magdala that's almost completely intact and you know jesus preached in that in
that synagogue he had to us and so um just to see those places to be on the sea of galilee it's just an amazing thing i would just please come to israel um if if you have any desire
to i guarantee you you're gonna love it uh but you you've got something coming up here pretty soon don't you too right yeah uh we've got this conference i just left from uh there in tennessee and uh excited
about that and uh being there with john uh get to set up with chance there and sell some cigars and have a good time selling the book um putting out some different little knickknacks we've had some people making
some things for us for the for the podcast just some random things that you'll never find online uh some coasters and cup holders and things like that uh so yeah we are excited about that is there something else i've got going on brett
i don't think so i think that's it yeah maybe you know uh yeah it all runs together um hey uh yeah january 30th through february 7th i believe those dates for israel uh come with us it's going to
be a wonderful wonderful time uh anything else brett we got going on that i can think of i think that pretty much covers all of our introductory stuff i think we've uh are just excited about this series that
ran man we've got some we've got some interviews already in the chamber we haven't pulled the trigger on it yet i i'm chomping at the bit i can't wait and uh so we're going to announce that soon so
stay tuned one one last thing you said that reminded me of this we we say it often if there's ever a time where you want to come on want to share your story maybe we've talked about a college
or a ministry or a person that was influential to you and you want to come and just share your story i appreciate steve last week and jason coming on and sharing their story we dropped next year interview for
you last week uh we'd love for you to come on we're going to be talking about some individuals over these next five to ten weeks of that are currently in ministry now and if you want to share your
story share your time with them or them we want you to have that opportunity this is not just me and brett on here talking this is a time where you can share you can experience you can tell your
experience and you can help others one of the things that that allows us in our healing journey is helping other people when we begin to help others it helps them grow but it also helps us in that same
journey and so we want to always give that opportunity for you to come on reach out to me reach out to brett and we'll try to get you scheduled for a time to talk about where you're at so
i think without that further ado let's jump into today's episode for freedom you set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released welcome
to the 4-Freedom Podcast this podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday christians with everyday issues i ain't saved by dress codes not by what i eat i'm covered in the righteousness washed from head
to feet no tally of tradition no man made code blood bought my freedom now i ride that road they clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise but my praise still ascends past the legalist cries christ plus nothing
that's the real math so miss me with your fence laws and your extra path he sat with sinners i'm sitting with saints sipping grace from the bottle no room for face i like one for liberty toast to the
king every ash a sermon death has lost its sting for freedom he set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released for freedom
he set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released let grace begin for freedom he set me free not for change not for
guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now here are your hosts james safeford and brett martin over the last couple of months we and really uh for the last season and a half really we've been talking about the footprints from the past
from J. Frank Norris, John R. Rice, Jack Howes, Lester Roloff, Lee Robertson,
all the way up to the final four that we just released with Ruckman, Roloff, Carl Malone, and Tom Hatch. And we talked through all of those. We covered the men. We covered the movements that they were part of. We've talked about the tracks that they left and how they forged their own journeys.
Interview Highlights and Stories
We were able to interview several people, J.C., Stephen, Jason, several others, that shared their story, shared their journey under some of these men and what that looked like.
Again, I don't know if you remember, we had a great conversation with James Spurgeon a couple of months ago. And from our interview and from our time talking about the Baptist Longview Temple there, he's now started his own podcast, doing a great job with that.
I don't know if you've listened to it, Brett, but the Texas Baptist Crucible podcast, what a great job he's doing over there.
Just someone sharing their journey and then feeling led to continue on and share more stories. We love seeing that. We love seeing what's going on there. And so, Brett, where are we going today?
What's going on? Well, you know, as we're wrapped up in all what you were saying, all that we've done, we're wrapped up, we're interviewing these people, we're talking about these footprints from the past.
One question just kept coming up that we talked about, and that was, what's next? Because fundamentalism isn't just history. I mean, it's still here today.
There are leaders today that are shaping what it's going to look like in the years to come. And so this is something that me and you have thought for. Yeah.
And I think what we've decided to entitle this, if you have looked at the header of the episode, is called The Future of Fundamentalism.
And how this begins to take what we've learned in the past, but begin to focus and shift our thoughts on men who are leading right now, who are alive, who are in the journey, who are doing things, who are producing content right now, men with colleges, men with churches, men with training programs.
These are the men we're going to look at. We're going to look at Paul Chappell and West Coast Baptist College.
We're going to look at Charlie Clark and Vision Baptist College up in New Jersey. We're going to look at Jeff Fugate in Commonwealth.
We're going to look at Jack Treber in Golden State and look at these four men specifically. But today, Brett, who are we going to talk about today? We are going to kick this off with someone that's taken a unique path. And that is Eric Capaci and Champion Christian College in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
And I'll tell you, James, the first time I ever laid eyes on Eric Capaci was at Howe Zanderson College. He got up to preach. He was I was attending college and he was preaching chapel. He got up to preach chapel and he just an animated guy.
He'll tell a story and just suck you in. He told a story about how he was going into the high rises in South Chicago.
And he had took it, take his tie off. His Bible was in his pocket. Some guys came around and started pushing him and start trying to jump him. And and so he pretended he knew karate and made the and made the made the karate noises and stances. And they backed up from him.
And it was hilarious. And his tie was falling out of his pocket. And they said, man, you should have put that tie on or that Bible. We didn't know you from the church. We left you alone. And so that was kind of my first my first inkling of of of Capaci.
And then later on, I dated somebody from that had, you know, was friends with someone from his church. And so I was, you know, visited Hot Springs a couple of times to see her and went to church there a little bit.
And so and plus I have the people that I grew up with. I all of my a lot of my younger friends from church. They all went to Champion. And so I've got several friends that, in fact, me, me and you have several acquaintances through Champion.
And so I've got a lot of connections to Champion. Yeah.
You know, Brett, as we begin thinking through Eric and his ministry, of course, he was raised Roman Catholic as an altar boy, saved at 12 years old, 13 years old. And we're going to give a little bit more of that later. But as he left House Anderson,
he had this desire, this overwhelming desire to plant a church. And so he moved his family back to Hot Springs, Arkansas, planted the church in 1992, which was Gospel White Baptist Church there. And he began as their lead pastor ever since.
He planted it with his brother, Brett. And they lived in a single wide trailer, a little three bedroom trailer. The two families lived together for many years, just making ends meet. And the church became the parent ministry behind where I went to college at, which is Champion Baptist College, now Champion Christian College.
That's right, Chad. Capace's background is useful to think about because he trained in the IFB world. His bio list degrees from House Anderson College, other evangelical training.
And, man, when you've got House Anderson on there, you don't need anything else, man. That's the creme de la creme right there. Yeah. I think he's got his honorary doctorate from House and from another college as well.
He's got two honorary doctorates. Oh, man. Well, he was ordained in 1990. He spent decades as a church planter, pastor, and eventually college founder and president. And, you know,
he's often described as very entrepreneurial. And you get that sense from him when you talk to him and you listen to him talk. He knows how to turn something around. He's got a good head on his shoulder. He's got a good sense about that. He's a builder. He thinks in terms of institutions and programs and events.
One thing I think about Eric, I think the guy knows how to cast vision. He can cast vision better than anybody else that I know. And that's the frame that when we analyze him, pastor, industrial entrepreneur, we want to put those together.
Fans point to growth and outreach. While critics point to style and personality-driven leadership.
And so some other things that we want to explore as we go through this. Yeah, I can definitely agree with all that, Brett. That as under Eric,
one of the things that I often would say as I was at Champion was he cast a vision so big and so grand that in order for it to be accomplished, the only way for it to happen was
for God to intercede and to work in that situation.
And, you know, growing up in a smaller church running, you know, 200, 150, 200 people, I did not get to ever see a grand, big vision like that. So going to Champion expanded my horizons.
I got to spend time with Eric while I was there with him. And, of course, my wife was reached through their bus ministry and went to the Christian school, went to the college, served underneath all the bus ministry.
And so, you know, being in that environment molded how I looked at ministry and how I did ministry.
One of the caveats that I'll say is the education that I got from Champion was probably not the best education ever.
Very, very shallow in their teaching, very shallow in their doctrine. They only ever taught one side of the story. They never allowed for debate.
They never allowed for growth in that context. But the ministry hands-on training, the physical ministry, laboring in the college, helping in the ministries, seeing that ministry is messy, seeing the time that it costs in ministry,
that if you're going to truly make a difference, you've got to love people and care for people.
The love that Eric had for people was one of the most amazing things that I took out of ministry while we were there that has stuck with me for my entire time. You mentioned, Brett, the storytelling that Eric had and still has to this day.
The way I tell stories and the way I preach is modeled after his style of preaching because it was just so ingrained in me for so many years, listening and hearing and having that audience drawn into the story
was just, I mean, I can still to my mind right now, go to those stories and go to those events that he had told because I remember them.
And so it was such a great, great time. One thing I want to mention as we continue looking forward, sort of the college side of it, the origin story of the history. The college was founded in 05 and it was out of the gospel light as a ministry and an extension of the ministry. We mentioned it was originally Champion Baptist Institute.
It was an institute first. And then a couple of years later, it became Champion Baptist College. And then as the college grew, they rebranded and became Champion Christian College. I believe that was in 2010. No, not 2010. I believe that was in 2015 when they changed their name to Champion Christian College.
It's a small ministry focused school. They offer associate's degrees,
bachelor degrees, and a couple of master level degrees as well. They've just recently expanded into their online presence as well. Brett, I want you to share sort of their institutional side of it.
Champion College Accreditation
What does it look like? Well, two institutional items to stress.
So, number one, we want to let you know that Champion did pursue and achieve national accreditation through tracks.
This is a milestone that they celebrate, they're proud of it, and they should be. And number two, the college marked itself as both doctrinally conservative and academically credible, which has set it a bit apart from many IFB schools that historically avoided outside accreditors.
Tracks granted full accreditation at a tracks meeting on November 5th. So, this is an accredited institution. And that's something that we need to stress and make known.
Yeah. One thing I'll make known from the inside is you may know the name Judson Mitchell. He was at Howes Anderson for many years. Do you remember that name? Do you know that name? Dr. Mitchell?
Okay. He may know after you. He went and worked at Commonwealth and helped start another Bible college as well.
But he and others often told us when we get accredited, because they were going through the tracks and accreditation while we were there, when we get accredited, all your degrees, they're going to be grandfathered in, and you're going to get this accredited degree as well.
That was all a lie. My degree is still just a piece of paper sitting right behind me. You can see it right there in the middle of my bookshelf. It's not accredited.
The way for my degree to actually be accredited through tracks is I would actually have to take a couple more classes and then re-graduate with a bachelor's degree in order for my degree to be accredited.
And so, that was often they would say, oh, you're paying for it now, but eventually it'll be accredited. It does not, did not do.
But they did have a dual aim. They were theologically conservative, and now they're academically accredited.
It's an important signpost for our series because it shows the model for how this IFB church that was rooted in this institution, it's no longer an IFB church. They're an SBC church now. They try to stay faithful to their convictions while stepping into a broader academic accountability.
And I think that's good for us. I think it's good for these colleges to take that step forward and say, hey, we are going to provide a quality education that's Christian, that's biblical, but also go through the proper channels.
Now, you mentioned something that we need to bring to everybody's attention, and that is that they did pivot into being Southern Baptist, which that actually pivots how we categorize Capacity.
In the late 2010s, the church voted to join the Southern Baptist Convention. That vote was publicly celebrated on social feeds and noted by other SBC leaders. And it wasn't like a cosmetic change.
Joining the SBC signals a formal cooperative posture with a denominational network that most IFB churches historically avoided. This was a big shift. This was a direction change.
And it changes how we're going to categorize Eric Capacity as compared to these other leaders in fundamentalism that we're going to go over. He took a stand. He went in a different direction. He stepped out of the IFB. And we definitely want to let people know that.
Yeah, I've got a, it's not a diploma, but it was a message that Eric preached. It was either my first or second year of college. He would always do the first chapel message, and he would lay out the foundation. One year, he did a breakfast of champions, Wheaties.
And he put, like, champion on there. And he gave everybody a box of cereal. By the time I graduated, there were guys that had boxes of Wheaties cereal that they had gotten that first year.
They never opened and they never ate that, like, maggots were growing out of. And it was disgusting. But one year, he preached a message on what we believe and the biblical foundation of champion. And it was eight or ten points. And it was like a diploma. It looked almost like a diploma.
And he said, this is what we believe. This is what we stand for. Or he said, I don't care if champion goes liberal one day. I don't care if these things happen.
But if we ever go against these things, and one of them was like, we're going to always use the King James Bible. You can send this back.
You can send these things back. We're going to stand true on the word of God. And he said those things, and that was great. But now, okay, they're not there anymore. They're not King James only.
They're SBC. And so you see this progression of where he was at. You see this progression of where champion was once at, where they were just spouting certain things. But now they have, hopefully, by the grace of God, and I've had multiple conversations with Eric. We sat down briefly after,
recently after they had joined the SBC. I was already an SBC pastor. And my wife went out there. We had someone watch our kids. And me and Ms. Carol Ann and Eric and my wife, we all went.
And we sat down, and we had lunch one day. And I just said, hey, tell me where you're at. My wife grew up in your church.
And she was told since she was a baby that the King James is the only way. And now her pastor is using the ESV or using something else. How do you justify that?
This is just questions that she's got. And this was during our questioning stage. And so we've had those conversations with him in private. And I think the move maps,
sort of the theological and the practical shift, they're more concerned with cooperation and broadening the evangelistic structure that they have. You'll hear Eric's testimony of wanting to help encourage smaller struggling churches, revitalize them.
He's willing to partner with SBC missions and the work of what it is and less likely of the separatist posture that he had in the beginning of the IFB practices.
By one measure, this is a healthy theological shift for them. And for some observers, this is a move away from isolationists and beginning to cooperate in a broader scope. Absolutely.
Now, one of the things we promise is we promise to cover controversies. And, you know, I look for scandals or legal cases tied to capacity or champion.
And look, we found no major public criminal or civil scandals out there. No verifiable arrest records, major lawsuits.
None of that surfaced. We did find instead two types of critical reactions you should know about.
And that is, first, a cultural and stylistic critiques inside the IFB online forums, of course. You know, we can expect that. And reputational incidents that are more embarrassing than criminal.
And, you know, we'll lay that out. And if you want us to dig deeper into court records or stuff like that, we can do that. But, you know, for now, this is all we're able to kind of dig up. Yeah.
And so being on the inside, I know there are some allegations. I know there are some things that happened at Champion. Those aren't my stories to tell. There are people out there that have a story and have a voice that they want to share.
I want to challenge you. Reach out to us. And this is at any college. This is at any organization out there. If you've been hurt and you want to share your story, let us know. There are our podcasts,
Eric Skorzenzki at the Preacher Voice Podcast. That's what he lives for. That's his whole motive of the podcast is expressing and sharing the criminal actions of the IFB.
And so we want to give some of those things. And we want to share some of the controversies and sort of criticisms. The first one is the IFB critiques of the theological shift that Brett mentioned.
Some of the old school IFB forums, the fighting fundamentalists and posters in that express frustration and even disappointment.
Right. Eric and Gospel White, they were the flagship. I mean, Eric, he had the fastest growing college. He had the largest first year attendance of any independent fundamental Baptist college that's ever been recorded that first year that they became a college.
They were growing. They were impacting their community. They were doing things that was the flagship model. Eric, he spoke 50 weeks out of the year at camps and crusades. Anyone who wanted to be in that IFB world, they flocked to be around Eric.
And now that he started college, it's like, hey, I want to be around that. I want to be part of his sphere of influence.
And so what happened was the Gospel White began to align with the SBC and within some of the IFB circles, they saw this as betrayal. They saw this as this man used his platform and now he is betraying us.
He's stabbing us in the back. We've got to be separatists. We've got the individual churches. And these conversations are loud. You can find them all over different places in different niche forums. As I mentioned, the Fighting Fundamentalists and various other places.
And people began to track this denominational move. And the pushback was primarily the theological, cultural. There was no legal pushback.
Right. And then we also talked about reputational hits. Apparently, Champions Basketball Program suffered a widely publicized, humiliating loss to Southern University. James' score was 116 to 12.
This game was in 2013. Made the national sports pages. You know, it's not a theological controversy. But the reason why we bring it up is because it has been used by critics to taunt or as a sign that smaller ministry colleges sometimes overreach into competitive arenas and they're unprepared for it.
And that's, you know, it's been widely circulated. It's part of the school's history. And that's kind of the only reason why we kind of bring it up. Yeah.
I think, and I remember watching part of this game, Brett, I think they went like almost 100 points before a champion ever scored a point, ever scored a basket.
It was such a bad game. And then finally, they put like their C team in and then champion scores like 12 points. It was so bad. It was so horrendous. It was so funny as well. I mean, you're watching these guys. I mean, it looks like high schoolers playing like my son's fifth grade team.
Like this is, I mean, it was, it was just humiliating. Baking together though, the factual controversies are more, are mostly reputable and the theological rather than the criminal.
The biggest controversy in the broad sense is the shift of affiliation and posture. And posture that provides heat along the online presence of the IFB purist.
And so what we're trying to get to the point of, of really saying that this is as we go through different things, there's going to be some pros and cons. And I've shared some of those pros and cons.
I've shared some of the legal side of it. Again, there's nothing, there's no criminal record. There's no court proceeding. There's no, there's nothing like that's been happening.
And so up until this point. And so if something like that were to happen, of course we would cover it. But, but what I want to share is from, from me personally, you know, we, I love champion. I love Eric.
Eric will always be one of my heroes. I wouldn't be where I met today without champion and without Eric.
I would not have the wife that I had. If he didn't plant this church in hot Springs, Arkansas, her family would not be changed the way it was changed. And so I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful for my heritage.
If I could go back and change some things, of course I would. But I'm thankful that we were able to be under that ministry at that specific time.
Fundamentalism's Future Signals
Exactly. And we, we want to kind of now shift and ask the question, what does Capaci tell us about fundamentalism's future?
And, you know, as we thought through this, he gives us a couple of signals. The first one is institutional entrepreneurship,
you know, leaders out there who can build churches in the multi-campus ministries and then found colleges. They're, they're shaping the supply chain for future pastors and missionaries.
And, and what Eric Capaci's model does is it demonstrates how to do that. And, you know, that's one thing that, you know, we've got, we've got churches, we've got pastors retiring. We don't have enough pastors to replace them.
And it's some, this is something that we have to think about, you know, and Eric's got a way to do that. He's got the way to funnel leaders into these positions. And so we need to step back and take a look at that.
And so the second one is willingness to compromise. Go ahead. Real quick.
One of the things that Dr. Mitchell often would say in our classes was if Eric Capaci and Brett Capaci were not believers and were in the real world, they would be leaders of the top 100 in the top 100 companies of the world.
And that's why church planting was so integral for him because it was just his DNA of who he was. Exactly. Second, willingness to compromise separatism for cooperation.
Capaci's move toward the SBC suggests some leaders matured out of isolation's IFB habits and see denominational partnership as a better vehicle for mission and sustainability. That's a theological and practical recalibration.
And, you know, I agree with this. One of the things that this come up on the RFP network the other day, I vented in there about something that, you know, had to do with a committee that I was on.
And there was there was a and for the most part, everybody was sympathetic to what I was saying. But there was a little bit of this pushback of, oh, you're in the SBC. That's IFB light and committees and organizations take away from the Lord.
And, you know, I I'm always going to push back against that because, you know, committees and organization doesn't have to take away from the Lord. It can actually help the mission grow faster.
And that's, you know, the SBC cooperative program is the fastest vehicle to get missionaries in the world to spread the gospel around this planet.
You know, the you know, it's the largest the SBC is the largest Protestant denomination in America. And just because it's a dominant denomination doesn't mean it's bad. Listen, if you want to be non-denominational, man, I'm I'm I'm happy for you. I think that's great.
I'm not I don't want to criticize you at all. But, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I think it's great as well. You know, as the SBC, I joined the convention because I believe in the process of what they do and that we can do more together than we can separate. Do I believe that the SBC is perfect? Absolutely. By no means. I do not believe that. Yes.
I believe there's got to be some accountability, some financial transparency, some things that we've been fighting for over the last couple of years. At the convention, I believe needs to happen.
But like you said, for someone who is on the mission field or looking to go on the mission field, the quickest way for them to get from the pew to the mission field is through the cooperative program. And our cooperative program dollars do that.
Our Annie Armstrong, a lot of offerings do that to support these people that are going where we can't go and have this desire, this God given vision to go there. And so if we can partner and we can help in that way, absolutely.
I was talking to just a missionary just the other day.
I had lunch with them and I asked them how long they'd been on deputation. And they said, we've been trying to raise support to get to the mission field for over three years. We still have language that we're having to go through because we've been traveling so much.
And they said, we may not actually get to the field for another year to two years. You're looking at five years of deputation, raising support,
miles on a vehicle, heartache that you're going to go through. I mean, imagine a young person that's in that family.
Let's say they're 12 years old. But the family is going to have raised support and finally get to the field and they're going to go off to college and they're never going to step foot in this mission field where if they would have just been able to get that funding,
get the training they needed and get on the field, they're going to have this child that's going to be there to help them to be able to maybe be the next generation that's going to be able to reach that next generation in that own ministry.
And so there's a lot there. There's a lot we can talk about. Deputation, it's such a taxing effort. On a family that is trying to raise support. And so, yeah,
this shift of going to the SBC, the partner together, the resources you have, the resources you give to one another, the cooperation you have with one another, it's vital to ministry.
And I believe that's why Eric did it. And there's some other reasons as well that I'll have liberty to talk about. But, yeah. So another one, our number three is accreditation and professionalization.
Champions Tracks accreditation shows a pathway for IFB-rooted schools to gain broader academic recognition without abandoning conservative theology.
That can change how students are trained and were graduate served. You know, that's right where we're at.
How many of our listeners, James, are just like you, have a degree from an IFB school that is unaccredited?
Our good friend Ashley Wynn had to go back to school, start from ground zero in order to get her teaching degree.
And so a lot, this is where a lot of our listeners are at. And, you know, I think this was a good change. It was going in the right direction. In fact, it was, you know, I talk about Trinity a lot in Jacksonville where I got my accredited bachelor from.
They used to be an IFB school. And because they transitioned, they had a pathway to help guys and, you know, people like us that have unaccredited degrees to get their accredited degree without starting back at square one.
I'll always be thankful to them for helping me out. And so this was definitely a move in the right direction for champion. Yeah, absolutely.
And I think this is a great thing for them. Sort of the pushback, especially from the classic IFB critiques, they showed that these shivs are not neutral. They label this as them as adaptive and unhealthy.
Some see this as adaptive and healthy. Some see this as a loss of conviction, right? They have forgotten the monuments that have been set up by their forefathers. The tension that begins to happen is the innovation versus preservation.
Are we going to innovate and move forward? Or are we going to just continue to preserve what was once there and never change, never grow, never do anything, and continue to do the same thing?
Because that's what Grandpa told us to do. And I believe this is going to be the drive that we see over the next decade or so. The drama that begins to happen over and over again in the IFB because they are pushing this narrative.
And what's going to happen is young people are going to say, listen, there's some innovative things out there. We can do some of these things that are going to allow our ministries to grow that isn't compromising, that isn't changing scripture, that isn't changing truth.
And I believe Eric has laid the way to say, and he went through some dark times.
When he left the independent fundamental Baptist movement, he was on the main stage. He was preaching at massive conferences.
He lost all of that. And so there was a definite, I'm taking a step in the right direction for the safety and future of what we're doing.
Exactly. And, you know, it's that kind of what you said earlier kind of reminds me of the old, all the IFB preachers, they preach in that message. Don't move the landmark of the ancestors, you know, and so don't move the traditions and stuff like that. So that's kind of a snapshot of Eric Capaces.
He's got IFB roots. He's got a builder mentality, college founder, accreditation. They achieved accreditation at their school.
And then, of course, the most notable thing is their move and shift into SBC life. There are no significant or sensational criminal scandals out there that we can find. There are cultural and reputational things that we've talked about.
But, you know, let me ask you, James, you went there in the IFB days. You've seen it today. It's going in the right direction.
Yeah, I believe the champion's going in the right direction. I think Eric's going in the right direction with the convention and having a group of people around him that are going to keep him accountable.
I love what he's doing with helping replant some churches in the area and investing in the Arkansas Hot Springs area, just giving revitalization of churches in the area.
I think he's doing some really good things. One of the big critiques of when I was there is everyone that was in James Spurgeon also said this about his time at Longview.
The church was there and the college was there, but the church and college were not of the city. The church and college were these transplant people that were coming there and building this ministry, but they weren't from there. Over the years,
Eric, he's always had a big bus ministry, but he's beginning to reach the people that are around him.
He's beginning to raise up leaders from the county, from the community, which is making his ministry stronger and better because he's got people that are there that are grounded, that are not just coming there for a job, but
they're living there with their families and they're loving the people and they're doing the right thing. And so I would say, yeah, those are great things. We are excited.
We're going to go ahead and let the cat out of the bag at this point. We do have Eric Capaci lined up for an interview for the next two weeks. We've got a two-part episode.
We sat down with him for over two hours and just picked his brain from everything you can imagine. I think it was 18 questions that we lined up.
When I was reading through some of the questions as we were prepping for it, Allison and John, they were like, you're going to do like a five-hour interview. You're asking so many questions.
I said, listen, we're getting him on here. We're going to just buckle down and we're going to ask questions and we're going to go.
And so two non-question segments that we're going to ask him.
And it's a great interview, a great time over the next couple of weeks that you're going to hear that. We're going to drop some clips, some promo clips over the next couple of weeks as well.
Promoting that, you'll sort of hear some teaser clips of what he's going to be saying and excited about that. But I think Eric is a provocative first step that we can use. He was the poster child for the classic IFB isolationism, right?
He was the one that was the energetic guy. They brought up for pastors conference. They had a youth rally. They'd bring Eric in.
And then all of a sudden, over time, when he was so isolated, he realized this isn't healthy for me. This isn't healthy for my family. And so there's got to be a better way out of this.
Closing Thoughts and Housekeeping
And so he began to transition, and he had this hybrid model of conservatism theologically while joining a cooperative denomination and beginning to see through this journey.
And so we hope you've enjoyed it. After we finished Eric, we're going to be jumping into Paul Chapel and West Coast Baptist College and the model they have there. Huge ministry out there. I've been there many different times.
And so if you want to, if you have a story, if you were part of West Coast or Paul Chapel, and I've got some personal stories as well. But if you want to come on and share your story, please reach out to us and let us know. So Brett.
Paul Chapel. He's even got some critics from the IFB even now. And so that's going to be an interesting subject to explore. Yeah. If listeners want source notes or anything we quote directly, we'll include links,
citations in the show notes. We can gather any audio or any clips you want to verify anything that we say. We're an open book.
If we say something inaccurate, call us out on it. That happened just a couple of weeks ago. We had to make a correction. We're not above that. Admitting we're human. We make mistakes. We're not above admitting when we say something wrong.
If something's wrong, we want you to call us out on it because we want to give you the most accurate information. But, man, I'll tell you, I have been chomping at the bit for that Eric Capaci interview for a long time. And I am so glad the time has finally arrived. Absolutely.
We can't wait to release it. Hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you, as always, have enjoyed it, share this with someone.
Like, review, rate it. We always appreciate those on Facebook that leave comments and leaving ratings on our iTunes.
It does help us out a little bit. Remember to go and check out our Freedom Bundle. First five that order, we'll get a free copy of our book. And excited about that. And until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace.
Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning. That has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the 4-Freedom Podcast.
If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the 4-Freedom Podcast.
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Episode Notes

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Welcome Back and Episode Updates

Baptism and Salvation Discussion

Nicaragua Mission Trip Plans

Interview Highlights and Stories

Champion College Accreditation

Fundamentalism's Future Signals

Closing Thoughts and Housekeeping

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Welcome Back and Episode Updates

Baptism and Salvation Discussion

Nicaragua Mission Trip Plans

Interview Highlights and Stories

Champion College Accreditation

Fundamentalism's Future Signals

Closing Thoughts and Housekeeping

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