187. The Future of Fundamentalism - Eric Capaci

welcome back to the for freedom podcast it is great to be back with you uh episode 180 something 187 maybe i don't know 186 it's been great i don't keep up with numbers like that until i edit them uh it has been great to be with you uh just got back from a conference there in tennessee and uh got to make some great connections and get to meet some great people and excited about what we have going on uh with a new endeavor we've got a new product launch we're gonna be talking about today in just a little bit uh brett you are knee knee deep neck deep whichever one you want to say in crusade planning how are you doing my friend man things are going good um like you said we've been having to plan this crusade and uh it's been a good we're excited about it um we hope people come we we've advertised from every conceivable angle um facebook and yard signs we have uh i've got a radio interview lined up uh on uh friday i'm gonna be on uh kicks 96 country uh talking about the crusade and a couple other radio stations they're gonna run that on and um we've just done everything we can do to prepare for this uh then talking to some bands this morning we had our venue picked out and uh been picked out for over a year and then the day we go in to clean it they stop us and say hey we need to get in there and replace some stuff and do some paints uh painting and sanding and we're kind of like you know you've known that we were coming in here for a year why are you wait till we're ready to get in here i mean i've got a guy i've got a my technician ready to get in there and run wires and install tvs getting ready for this thing and we had to tap the brakes on it so uh but hopefully we get in there pretty soon uh we've been talking to bands and stuff and then man on top of that just uh church life just being a pastor past uh two days i put 350 miles on my truck just ministry miles and so um it's a lot of stuff going on got school on top of that because i'm working on my master's um so it's a busy season but like my like i always say i'd rather do this than sit at the house i definitely rather do this than go back to that oil chain shop um where i was before and so i am just happy where god has put me i'm glad i'm dizzy i'm glad i'm serving and i wouldn't rather be doing anything else and but i'll tell you james the most important thing in my life right now at this moment is co-hosting the for freedom podcast with you i'm so glad to be here and i've been looking forward to this all week yes sir love it hey big question big big question when they announce you on the radio is it going to be dr brett martin since you have your honorary doctorate hey i do have it i could bring it up there and show them you should i think i think it'd be a big talking point and uh i think they need to make sure that everyone in the world knows that dr brett martin getting his master's degree is there uh it's going to be a great time uh yeah we are excited as well we've been level metal to the pedal to the floor as well uh lord's been blessing uh we had uh a young person reached out to me brett just yesterday and they said hey i want to get baptized and so i'm meeting with them sunday about salvation uh talking through that so excited about that um we had an unexpected death in the church last week which has been uh putting everything into a tailspin but things are good god's been faithful the whole family was there and uh it's just been a blessing to to minister to them uh but brett we've got some exciting things coming up i've been excited about this and and i'll sort of launch this new product that we're talking about and then let you talk about a couple other things but we are excited about announcing a brand new product uh with our for freedom cigar line we are doing the four cigars and we've partnered with a soap company in tennessee and we've partnered with a mission organization in nicaragua and we're going to do a soap bundle with coffee and cigars coffee cigar soap bundle um all together it's going to be each one of our cigars it's going to be a bar of soap and it's going to be a bag of coffee um and part of this partnership is going to be actually going to help plant churches in nicaragua and support churches that are already in existence in nicaragua as well um and so part of the proceeds of this is going to go to help them and uh what we're doing is we're going to do the four cigars uh bar soap and a bag of coffee for 65 and uh that's going to be an awesome opportunity for you to support our ministry also be able to bless these two other organizations one this this brand new soap company that's this up and coming and then also our uh coffee company which is going to be uh part of planting churches there and we're throwing in for the first five people the first five people that go on and place this order on the website once it's live we'll also receive a copy of me and john's new book from freedom and that'll be for free on there and so this is just a complimentary copy for you for the first five so as soon as that's live here in the next couple of days go on there make that purchase make that order and you'll be able to receive uh the the bundle of what we've got this would be a great birthday present great christmas present uh and also be able to support the ministry and what we're doing i'll tell you that i remember last year um it was last basketball season so it might have been oh well over a year ago um i was sitting in a basketball game for my boys and this idea popped in my head and it's like what if we did this had a box and put this in it and then i told you and you're like man that's good what if what if we put this in it and did this in it and it was kind of a collaboration uh for these boxes we've been working on for a long time i tell you we've been trying to soap um it's great soap man it it it was hard to pick the scents that um you know go in these boxes i'm on my last bar uh right now uh that i've been so i've been using it for a long time now listen we're in this bundle we've got uh cigars we've got the soap and we've got the coffee now we're not telling you to use all three at the same time but we're also not going to stop you from doing that that's right that's exactly right and uh it'd be a great thing for you uh we do also not promise that if you use this soap that you'll be more masculine um but legend says that by using this soap uh you will be more masculine and uh your wife if you're married will find you more attractive and uh it'll be a great great success for your marriage if you do that that is that is the common lore right now that is we've got two different uh right now two different uh the the smells of the soap we're using bourbon and we're using wild cherry i believe is the two that we've got and uh so it'll just be a rotation of those as it goes if you order those um and uh we're excited about that we're excited about partnering with this new company in tennessee she her name is angela and she's been making soap for a while this is the old school way man out of uh uh beef tallow and all the weird ways they make soap but man it's been great for my skin i've enjoyed using it the brett i'm a coffee connoisseur you you can't see this because um you guys are just listening to us but uh behind me i have an espresso machine i've got a keurig i've ground my own beans and uh i have been thoroughly enjoying this coffee that i've been using it's the best coffee that i've ever had um and so it's ground right there in nicaragua right there in yunatega and uh which is where our kirk plants are are going to be at and uh so you're not going to get a better cup of coffee from anywhere else other than this coffee that we get fresh freshly made freshly ground um for you and so uh we're excited about that oh yeah we're going we're going back our church is going back to nicaragua next july and uh it is uh and and you'd think you know july in central america is going to be hot but actually it's one of the coolest times of the year uh but i've got special uh instructions to bring back the coffee and uh so we're definitely going to bring back some coffee it's really great coffee you're you're gonna you're gonna want this box you know i mean just you know when it's delivered in the mailbox you open it up you hear the eagle screeching i know you know you open it just screams america it's the for freedom uh package uh bundle and you're going to be happy with it i promise you absolutely brett what else we got going on let's see what we've got going on we've got our israel trip going on um we are uh going to israel um you know there's a lot of stuff in the news but it's perfectly safe right now uh to be in israel there are tours on the ground and we want to let you know if you want to come with us uh just let us know drop us a line uh we've got our website up and uh we are taking i think it's a jan it's last week of uh january first week of february of 2026 and uh we're we're going back to israel and we've got a few spots open and if you want to go now is the time uh that's going to come time here pretty soon when our trip will be closed but if you ever thought about going i'm telling you it's going to be worth it it'll change the way you read your bible it'll change the way you pray it'll just change everything about your spiritual life to be there and to see these things and to know that archaeology backs up the bible and gives it more legitimacy than any other you know spiritual book uh that claims to be spiritual in the world to see these places they're real they exist archaeology backs up the bible 100 to walk on literal streets that you know for a fact that jesus walked on to see the tiles in the synagogues where jesus you know jesus stood you know there's there's a synagogue in in magdala that's almost completely intact and you know jesus preached in that in that synagogue he had to us and so um just to see those places to be on the sea of galilee it's just an amazing thing i would just please come to israel um if if you have any desire to i guarantee you you're going to love it uh but you you've got something coming up here pretty soon don't you too right yeah uh we've got this conference i just left from uh there in tennessee and uh excited about that and uh being there with john uh get to set up with chance there and sell some cigars and have a good time selling the book um putting out some different little knickknacks we've had some people making some things for us for the for the podcast just some random things that you'll never find online uh some coasters and cup holders and things like that uh so yeah we are excited about that is there something else i've got going on brett i don't think so i think that's it yeah maybe you know uh yeah it all runs together um hey uh yeah january 30th through february 7th i believe those dates for israel uh come with us it's going to be a wonderful wonderful time uh anything else brett we got going on that i can think of i think that pretty much covers all of our introductory stuff i think we've uh are just excited about this series at rand man we've got some we've got some interviews already in the chamber we haven't pulled the trigger on it yet i i'm chomping at the bit i can't wait and uh so we're going to announce that soon so stay tuned one one last thing you said that reminded me of this we we say it often if there's ever a time where you want to come on want to share your story maybe we've talked about a college or a ministry or a person that was influential to you and you want to come and just share your story i appreciate steve last week and jason coming on and sharing their story we dropped next year interview for you last week we'd love for you to come on we're going to be talking about some individuals over these next five to ten weeks of that are currently in ministry now and if you want to share your story share your time with them or them we want you to have that opportunity this is not just me and brett on here talking this is a time where you can share you can experience you can tell your experience and you can help others one of the things that that allows us in our healing journey is helping other people when we begin to help others it helps them grow but it also helps us in that same journey and so we want to always give that opportunity for you to come on reach out to me reach out to brett and we'll try to get you scheduled for a time to talk about where you're at so i think without that further ado let's jump into today's episode for freedom you set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released welcome to the for freedom podcast this podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday christians with everyday issues i ain't saved by dress codes not by what i eat i'm covered in the righteousness washed from head to feet no tally of tradition no man made code blood bought my freedom now i ride that road they clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise but my praise still stands past the legalist cries christ plus nothing that's the real math so miss me with your fence laws and your extra path he sat with sinners i'm sitting with saints sipping grace from the bottle no room for fakes i like one for liberty toast to the king every ash a sermon death has lost its sting for freedom he set me free not for change not for guilt not for pharisee grace lit the flame now i'm puffing peace cigars and victory justified released let grace begin now here are your hosts james safrard and brett martin over the last couple of months we and really uh for the last season and a half really we've been talking about the footprints from the past uh from j frank norris john rice jack howells lester roloff lee robertson all the way up to the final four that we just released with uh ruckman roloff carl malone and tom hatch and we we talked through all those we covered the men we covered the movements that they're a part of uh we we've talked about the tracks that they left and and how they forged their own journeys uh we we were able to interview several people jc steven jason several others um that shared their story shared their journey uh under some of these men and what that looked like uh again i don't know if you remember uh we had a great conversation with james spurgeon a couple of months ago and uh from our interview and from our time talking about the baptist longview temple there um he's now started his own podcast doing a great job with that i don't know if you've listened to it brett uh but the the texas baptist crucible podcast what a great job he's doing over there uh just uh someone sharing their journey and then feeling led to continue on and uh share more stories we love seeing that we love seeing what's going on there um and so brett where are we going today what's going on well you know we're you know and as we're wrapped up in all what you were saying all that we've done we're wrapped up we're interviewing these people we're talking about these these footprints from the past one question just kept coming up that we talked about and that was what's next because fundamentalism isn't just history i mean it's still here today there are leaders today that are shaping what it's going to look like in the years to come and and so this is something that me and you have have thought for yeah and i think what we've decided to entitle this if you have looked at the header of the the episode is called the future of fundamentalism and how this begins to take what we've learned in the past but begin to focus and shift our thoughts on men who are leading right now who are alive who are in the journey who are doing things who are producing content right now men with colleges men with churches men with uh training programs these are the men we're going to look at we're going to look at paul chapel and west coast baptist college we're going to look at charlie clark and vision baptist college up in new jersey we're going to look at jeff fugate and commonwealth we're going to look at jack treber and golden state and look at these four men specifically but today brett who are we going to talk about today we are going to kick this off with someone that's taken a unique path and that is eric capace and champion christian college in hot springs arkansas and i'll tell you james the first time i ever laid eyes on eric capace was at how's anderson college um he got up to preach he was uh i was attending college and he was preaching chapel he got up to preach chapel and he just an animated guy he'll tell a story and just suck you in he told a story about how he was going into the high rises in south chicago and uh he had took it take his tie off his bible was in his pocket uh some guys came around him and started pushing him and started trying to jump him and and and so he pretended he knew karate and made the and made the made the karate noises and stances and and they backed up from him and it was hilarious and his tie was falling out of his pocket and they said man you should have put that tie on and wore that bible we didn't know you was from the church we'd left you alone and so that was kind of my first uh my first inkling of of uh of capace and then later on i dated somebody from that had you know was friends with someone from his church and so i was you know visited hot springs a couple times to see her and uh went to church there a little bit and so and plus i have the people that i grew up with i all of my a lot of my younger friends from church they all went to champion and so i've got several friends that in fact me me and you have several acquaintances through champion and so we've i've got a lot of connections to champion yeah you know brett as we begin thinking through eric and his ministry of course he was raised roman catholic uh as an altar boy saved at 12 years old 13 years old um and we're gonna give a little bit more of that later uh but as he left house anderson he had this desire this overwhelming desire to plant a church uh and so he moved his family back to hot springs arkansas uh planted the church in 1992 which was gospel like baptist church there um and he began as their lead pastor ever since he planted it with his brother brett and they lived in a single wide trailer a little three-bedroom trailer uh the two families lived together for many years just making ends meet um and the church became the parent ministry behind where i went to college at which is champion baptist college now champion christian college that's right chad kate capace's background is is is useful to think about because he he trained in the ifb world um his bio list degrees from how's anderson college other evangelical training and man when you got house anderson on there you don't need anything else man that's that's that's the creme de la creme right there yeah yeah i think he's got his honorary doctorate from how's and from another college as well but i know he's got two honorary doctorates oh man uh well he was ordained in 1990 he spent decades as a church planter pastor and eventually college founder and president and you know he's he's he's often described as very entrepreneurial and you you you get that sense from him when you talk to him and you listen to him talk um he knows how to turn something around he's got a good head on his shoulder he's got a good sense about that um he's a builder he thinks in terms of institutions and programs and events um one thing i think about eric i think the guy knows how to cast vision uh he can cast vision better than anybody else that i know um and that's the frame that when we analyze him pastor industrial entrepreneur we want to put those together fans point to growth and outreach while critics point to style and personality driven leadership and so some other things that we want to explore as we go through this yeah i can definitely agree with all that brett uh as under eric uh one of the things that i often would say as i was at champion was uh he cast a vision so big and so grand that in order for it to be accomplished the only way for it to happen was to be for god to have for god to intercede into work in that situation um and you know growing up in a smaller church running you know 200 150 200 people um i did not get to ever see a grand big vision like that so going champion expanded my horizons uh got to spend time with eric while i was there with him and uh of course my wife was reached through their bus ministry and and went to the christian school went to the college served underneath all the bus ministry um and so you know being in that environment molded how i looked at ministry how i did ministry uh one of the the caveats that i'll say is the education that i got from champion was probably not the best education ever um very very shallow in their teaching very shallow in their doctrine they only ever taught one side of the story they never allowed for debate they never allowed for growth in that context um but the ministry hands-on training uh the the physical ministry laboring in the college helping in the ministries um seeing that ministry is messy seeing the time that it costs in ministry the that if you're going to truly make a difference you've got to love people and care for people the love that eric had for people uh was one of the most amazing things that i took out of ministry while we were there that has stuck with me for my entire time you mentioned brett the uh the storytelling that eric had um and and still has to this day the the way i tell stories and the way i preach is modeled after his style of preaching because it was just so ingrained in me for so many years listening and hearing and and having that audience drawn into the story uh was was just i mean i can i can still to my mind right now go to those stories and go to those events that uh that he had told because i remember them um and so it was what such a great great time one thing uh we want to mention as we continue looking forward sort of the the college side of it the origin story of the history uh the college was founded in 05 and uh it was out of the gospel light as a ministry and an extension of the ministry we mentioned it was originally champion baptist institute was an institute first and then a couple years later it became champion baptist college and then as the the college grew uh they rebranded and became champion christian college i believe that was in 2010 uh no no not 2010 i believe that was in 2015 uh when they changed their name to champion christian college um it's a small ministry focused school they offer uh associate's degrees bachelor degrees and a couple of master level degrees as well uh they've just recently expanded into their online uh presence as well brett once you share sort of sort of their institutional side of it what does it look like well two institutional items to stress so number one we want to let you know that champion did pursue and achieve national credit accreditation through tracks and this is a milestone that they celebrate they're proud of it and they should be uh and number two the college marked itself uh as both doctrinally conservative and academically credible which is uh set it a bit apart from many ifb schools that historically avoided outside accreditors tracks granted full accreditation at a tracks meeting on november 5th so this is an accredited institution and that's something that uh we we need to stress and make known yeah one thing i'll make known from the inside is um you may know the name judson mitchell um he was at house anderson for many years do you remember that name do you know that name dr mitchell okay he made after you he went and worked at commonwealth and helped start another bible college as well but he and others often told us when we get accredited because they were going through the tracks and and accreditation while we were there when we get accredited all your degrees they're going to be grandfathered in and you're gonna get this accredited degree as well uh that was all a lie uh my degree is still just a piece of paper sitting right behind me you can see it right there in the middle of my bookshelf um it's not accredited um the the way for my degree to actually be accredited through tracks is i would actually have to take a couple more classes and then re-graduate with a bachelor's degree in order for my degree to be accredited and so um that was uh often they would say oh well you're you're you're paying for it now but eventually it'll be accredited um it does not uh did not do but they did have a dual aim that were theologically conservative and now they're academically accredited it's important signpost for our series because it shows the model for how this ifb church that was rooted uh in this institution it's no longer an ifb church they're an sbc church now um they try to stay faithful to their convictions while stepping into a broader academic accountability and i think that's good for us i think it's good for these colleges to take that step forward and say hey we are going to provide a quality education that's christian that's biblical uh but also go through the proper channels now you mentioned something that we need to bring to everybody's attention and that is that they did pivot into being uh southern baptist which that actually pivots how we categorize capacity um in the late 2010s the church voted to join the southern baptist convention and that vote was publicly celebrated on social feeds and noted by other sbc leaders uh that's not a and it wasn't like a cosmetic change you know joining the sbc signals a formal cooperative posture with a denominational network that most ifb churches historically avoided this was a this was a big shift this was a direction change um and and it changes how we're going to categorize eric capacity as compared to these other you know leaders and fundamentalism that that we're going to go over um he he took a stand he went in a different direction he stepped out of the ifb and we definitely want to let people know that yeah i've got a um it was it's not a diploma but it was a message that eric preach shows he's my first or second year of college uh he would always do the first chapel message and he would lay out the foundation uh one year he did a breakfast of champions wheaties and uh he put like champion on there and he he gave everybody a box of cereal by the time i graduated there were guys that had boxes of wheaty cereal that they had gotten that first year they never opened and they never ate that like maggots were growing out of and it was disgusting but but one year he preached a message on uh what we believe and the the biblical foundation of champion and uh it was eight or ten points and it was like a diploma it looked almost like a diploma and he said this is what we believe this is what we stand for he said i don't care if if champion goes liberal one day i don't care if if these things happen but if we ever if we ever go against these things and one of them was like we're going to always use the king james bible you can send this back you can send these things back we're going to stand true on the on the word of god and he said those things and that was great but but now okay they're not there anymore they're not king james only they're sbc um and so you you see this progression of where he was at you see this progression of where champion was once at where they were just spouting certain things uh but now they have hopefully by the grace of god and i've i've had multiple conversations with eric uh we sat down briefly after uh recently after they had joined the sbc i was already sbc pastor my wife went out there we had someone watch our kids and me and miss carol and eric and my wife uh we all went and we sat down and we had lunch one day and i just said hey tell me tell me where you're at my wife grew up in your church and she's she was told since she was a baby that the king james is the only way and now her pastor is using the sb or using something else how do you justify that uh this this is just questions that she's got and this was during our questioning stage and so we've had those conversations with him uh in private and i think the the move maps uh sort of the theological and the practical shift uh they were they're more concerned with cooperation and broadering the evangelistic structure that they have um you'll hear eric's testimony of wanting to help encourage smaller struggling churches revitalize them he's willing to partner with sbc missions and the work of what it is and uh less likely of the separatist policy posture that he had uh in the beginning of the ifb practices by one measure uh this is a healthy theological shift for them um and for some observers this is a move away from isolationist um and beginning to cooperate in a broader scope absolutely now one of the things we promise is we promise to cover controversies and you know i looked for scandals or legal cases tied to capacity or champion and look we found no major public criminal or civil scandals out there no verifiable arrest records major lawsuits uh none of that surface um we did find instead two types of critical reactions you should know about and that is first a cultural and stylistic critiques inside the isb online forums of course you know we can we can expect that and reputational incidents that are more embarrassing than criminal and you know we'll we'll lay that out and if you want us to dig deeper and report records or stuff like that we can do that um but you know for now this is all we're able to kind of dig up yeah and so being on the inside i know there's some some allegations i know there's some things that happened at champion um those aren't my stories to tell um there are people out there that have a story and have a a voice they want to share um i want to challenge you reach out to us and this is at any college isn't that any uh organization out there if you've been hurt and you want to share your story let us know uh there are our podcasts eric scores let's get the preacher boys podcast uh that's what he he lives for that's his his whole motive of the podcast is expressing and and sharing the criminal actions of the ifb um and so we want to give some of those things and we want to share some of the controversies and sort of criticisms uh the first one is the ifb critiques of the theological shift that brett mentioned some of the old school ifb forums the fighting fundamentalist uh and and posters in that express frustration and even disappointment right eric and gospel white they were the flagship i mean eric he had the fastest growing college he had the largest first year attendance of any independent fundamental baptist college that's ever been recorded that first year that they were became a college they were growing they were impacting their community they were doing things that was the flagship model eric he spoke 50 weeks out of the year at camps and crusades uh anyone who wanted to be in that ifb world they flocked to be around eric and now that he started to college it's like hey i want to be around that i want to be part of his sphere of influence um and so what happened was the gospel light began to align with the sbc and within some of the ifb circles they saw this as betrayal they saw this as this man used his platform and now he is betraying us he's stabbing us in the back um we've got to be separatists we've got the individual churches um and these conversations are loud they're there you can find them all over different places um in different niche forums as i mentioned the fighting fundamentalists in various other places um and people began to track this denominational move um and the pushback was primarily the theological cultural there was no legal pushback right um and then we we also talked about reputational hits apparently uh champions basketball program suffered a widely publicized humiliating loss to southern university the james's score was 116 to 12. this game was in 2013 made the national sports pages you know it's not a theological controversy but i don't the only reason why we bring it up is because it has been used by critics uh to taunt or as a sign that smaller ministry colleges sometimes overreach into competitive arenas and they're unprepared for it um and that's you know it's been widely circulated it's part of the the school's history and that's kind of the only reason why we kind of bring it up yeah i think and i remember watching part of this game brett i think they went like almost 100 points before a champion ever scored a point ever scored a basket it was such a bad game uh and then finally they put like their c team in and then champion scores like 12 points uh it was it was so bad it was so horrendous it was so funny as well i mean you're watching these guys i mean it looks like high schoolers playing like my son's fifth grade team like this is i mean it was it was just humiliating um baking together though the the factual controversies uh are more are mostly reputable and the theological rather than the criminal uh the biggest controversy in the broad sense is the shift of affiliation and posture and posture uh they provides heat along the online presence of the ifb um purist um and so what we're trying to get to the point of of really saying that this is as we go through different things uh there's going to be some pros and cons and and i've shared some of those pros and cons um i've shared some of the the legal side of it again there's nothing there's no criminal record uh there's no court proceeding there's no um there's nothing nothing that's been happening and so up until this point and so if something like that were to happen of course we would cover it um but but what i want to share is from for me personally you know we i love champion i love eric eric will always be one of my heroes um i wouldn't be where i met today without champion and without eric um i would not have the wife that i had if he didn't plant this church in hot springs arkansas her family would not be changed the way it was changed and so i'm thankful for that i'm thankful for my heritage um if i could go back and change some things of course i would uh but i'm thankful that uh we were able to be under that ministry at that specific time exactly and uh we we want to kind of now shift and ask the question what does capacity tell us about fundamentalism's future and you know as we thought through this he gives us a couple of signals the first one is institutional entrepreneurship you know leaders out there who can build churches in the multi-campus ministries and then found colleges they're they're shaping the supply chain for future pastors and missionaries and and what erica pacy's model does is it demonstrates how to do that and you know that's one thing that you know we've got we've got churches pay that pastors retiring we don't have enough um pastors to replace them and it's some this is something that we have to think about uh you know and eric's got a way to do that he's got the way to funnel leaders into these positions and so we need to step back and take a look at that and so the second one is willingness to compromise go ahead real quick one of the things that dr mitchell often would say in our classes was if eric capacity and brett capacity were not believers and were in the real world they would be leaders of the top 100 in the top 100 companies of the world because of their entrepreneur spirit and also because of their energy and level of leadership um and i think that says a lot because when you are leading at that high quality you're able to take something and build it in a way with just the god-given abilities that you've been given to be able to do that entrepreneur spirit and that's why church planting was uh so integral for him because it was just his dna of who he was exactly uh second willingness to compromise separatism for cooperation capacity's move toward the spc suggests some leaders matured out of isolation ifp habits and see denominational partnership as a better vehicle for mission and sustainability that's a theological and practical recalibration and i you know i i agree with this um one of the things that um this come up on the rfp network uh the other day i i vented in there about something that you know had to do with a committee that i was on and there were there was a and for the most part everybody was sympathetic to what i was saying but there was a little bit of this pushback of oh you're in the sbc that's ifp light and committees and organizations take away from the lord and you know i i i'm i'm always going to push back against that because you know committees and organization doesn't have to take away from the lord it can actually help the mission grow faster and um that's you know the the sbc cooperative program is the fastest vehicle to get missionaries in the world to spread the gospel around this planet you know the you know it's the largest the sbc is the largest protestant denomination in america and uh just because it's the dominant denomination doesn't mean it's bad listen if you want to be non-denominational man i'm i'm i'm happy for you i think that's great i'm not i don't want to criticize you at all um but you know i what are your thoughts on that yeah i think it's great as well you know as the sbc i i joined the convention because i believe in the process of what they do and that we can do more together than we can separate do i believe that the sbc is perfect absolutely by no means i do not believe that agree yes i believe there's got to be some accountability some financial transparency some things that we've been fighting for over the last couple of years at the convention uh i believe needs to happen um but like you said for someone who is on the mission field or looking to go on the mission field the quickest way for them to get from the pew to the mission field is through the cooperative program and uh our our cooperative program dollars do that uh our annie armstrong a lot of moon offerings do that to support these people that are going where we can't go and have this desire this god-given vision to go there um and so if we can partner and we can help in that way absolutely um i i was talking to uh just a missionary just the other day i had lunch with them and i asked them how long they've been on deputation and they said we've been trying to raise support to get to the mission field for over three years we still have language that we're having to go through because we've been traveling so much um and they said we may not actually get to the field for another year to two years you're looking at five years of deputation raising support miles on a vehicle heartache that you're going to go through i mean imagine a young person that's in that family let's say they're 12 years old the family's gonna have raised support and finally get to the field and they're going to go off to college and they're never going to step foot in this mission field where if they would have just been able to get that funding get the training they needed and get on the field they're going to have this child that's going to be there to help them to be able to maybe be the next generation that's going to be able to reach that next generation in that own ministry um and so there's a lot there there's a a lot we can talk about um deputation it's such a taxing effort on the young on a family that is trying to raise support and so yeah this shift of going to the sbc to partner together the resources you have the the resources you give to one another the cooperation you have with one another it's vital to ministry and i believe that's why eric did it and there's some other reasons as well that i'll have liberty to talk about um but yeah so another one our number three is accreditation and professionalization champions tracks accreditation shows a pathway for ifd rooted schools to gain broader academic recognition without abandoning conservative theology that can change how students are trained and where graduates serve you know that's right where we that's right where we we're at uh how many of our listeners james are just like you have a degree from ifd school that is is unaccredited uh our good friend ashley win had to go back to school start from ground zero in order to get her teaching degree and so a lot this is where a lot of our listeners are at and uh you know i think this this was a good change it was going in the right direction in fact it was uh you know i talk about trinity a lot in jacksonville where i got my my accredited bachelor from they used to be an ifb school and because they transitioned they had a pathway to help guys and gerton you know people like us that have unaccredited degrees to get their accredited degree without starting back at square one i'll always be thankful to them for helping me out and so this was definitely a move in the right direction for champion yeah absolutely and i think this is a great thing for them uh sort of the pushback uh especially from the classic ifb critiques um they showed that they shiv they're not neutral uh they're they label this as them uh as adaptive and unhealthy um some see this as adaptive and healthy some see this as a loss of conviction right they have they have uh forgotten the monuments that have been set up by their forefathers the tension that begins to happen is the innovation versus preservation are we going to innovate and move forward or are we going to just continue to preserve what was once there and never change never grow never do anything uh and continue to do the same thing because that's what grandpa told us to do um and i believe this is going to be the drive that we see over the next decade or so the drama that begins to happen over and over again in the ifb because they are pushing this uh narrative and what's going to happen is young people are going to say listen there's there's some innovative things out there we can do some of these things that are going to allow our ministries to grow that isn't compromising that isn't changing scripture that isn't changing truth and i believe eric has laid the way to say uh and he went through some dark times when he left the independent fundamental baptist movement he was on the main stage he was preaching at massive conferences he lost all of that and so there was a definite i'm taking a step in the right direction for the safety and future of what we're doing exactly um and you know it's that kind of what you said earlier kind of reminds me of the the old all the all the ifb preachers they preached in that message don't move the landmark of the ancestors you know and so don't move the traditions and stuff like that so that that's kind of a snapshot of erica paces um he's got ifb roots he's got a builder mentality college founder accreditation they achieved accreditation at their school and then of course the most notable thing is their uh move and shift into sbc life there are no significant uh or sensational criminal scandals out there uh in in that we can find there are cultural and reputational things that that we've talked about um but and but you know you let me ask you james you went there in the ifb days you've seen it today it's going in the right direction yeah i believe the champions going the right direction i think eric's going the right direction with the convention and having a group of people around him that are going to keep him accountable um i love what he's doing with helping replant some churches in the area and investing in the arkansas hot springs area just giving revitalization of churches in the area um i think he's doing some really good things one of the big critiques of when i was there is um everyone that was and james spurgeon also said this about um his time at longview uh the church was there and the college was there but the church and college were not of the city the church and college were these transplant people that were coming there and building this ministry but they weren't from there over the years eric he's always had a big bus ministry but he's beginning to reach the people that are around him he's beginning to raise up leaders from the county from the community um which is making his ministry stronger and better because he's got people that are there that are grounded that are not just coming there for a job but they're living there with their families and they're loving the people and they're doing the right thing um and so i would say yeah those are great things uh we are excited we're going to go ahead and let the cat out of the bag at this point we do have eric capace lined up uh for an interview for the next two weeks we've got a two part episode uh we sat down with him for over two hours and uh just picked his brain from everything you can imagine uh i think it was 18 questions that we lined up uh when i when i was reading through some of the questions as we were prepping for it uh allison and john they were like you're gonna do like a five-hour interview you're asking so many questions i said listen we're getting him on here we're gonna just buckle down and we're gonna ask questions and we're gonna go um and so two non-question segments that we're gonna ask him and uh it's a great interview a great time uh over the next couple of weeks that you're gonna hear that we're gonna drop some clips some promo clips over the next couple of weeks as well uh promoting that you'll sort of hear some some teaser clips of what he's gonna be saying and uh excited about that uh i think eric is a provocative first step that we can use uh he was the poster child for the classic ifb isolationism right he he was the one that was the energetic guy they brought up for pastors conference they had a youth rally they'd bring eric in and then all of a sudden over time when he was so isolated he realized this isn't healthy for me this isn't healthy for my family and so there's got to be a better way out of this and so he began to transition and he had this hybrid model of conservatism theologically while joining a cooperative denomination um and beginning to see through this journey um and so we we hope you've enjoyed it uh after we finished eric we're gonna be jumping into paul chapel and uh west coast bible's college and uh the model they have their huge ministry out there i've been there many different times and so if you want to um if you have a story you were part of west coast or paul chapel and i've got some personal stories as well but if you want to come on and share your story please reach out to us and let us know so brett paul chapel he's even got some uh some critics from the ip even now and so that is that's going to be an interesting subject to explore yeah um if listeners want source notes or anything we quote directly uh we'll include links citations in the show notes um we can gather any audio or any clips you want to verify anything that we say um we're an open book um if we if we say something inaccurate call us out on it that happened just a couple of weeks ago we had to make a correction we're not above that admitting we're human we make mistakes uh we're not above admitting when when we say something wrong uh if something's wrong we we want you to call us out on because we want to give you the most accurate information but man i'll tell you i have been chomping at the bit for that eric capacity interview for a long time and i am so glad the time has finally arrived absolutely we can't wait to release it uh hope you enjoyed today's episode if you as always have enjoyed it share this with someone uh like review rate it uh we always appreciate those on facebook they leave comments and uh leaving uh ratings on our itunes it does help us out a little bit remember to go and check out our freedom bundle uh first five that order will get a free copy of our book and uh excited about that and until next time to god be the glory great things he has done good grace found that healing and the tears fell down my face when i found my beginning has no ending found that second chance found my best friend thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast if you enjoyed our content do us a favor by liking subscribing or sharing our podcast or whichever podcast platform you use be sure to join us next time for the for freedom podcast

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