185. Life Under Ruckman - The Steve Channer Story

Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. We have a special interview today for you. Today is Tuesday when we're releasing this. Typically our episodes come out on Thursday, but we are excited about having two different interviews this week. One is with the guy we're interviewing today named Stephen Channer, and he was under Ruckman for many years, and he's going to share his story. And then later this week we're going to share another interview with a guy that was under Roloff and Ruckman, and excited about Mr. Jason Tackett and his story that we get to share this week. I do want to remind you, we do have Israel coming up in just a couple of months. We would love for you to join with us. I know there are several who have reached out to us. There are still a couple of spots still available for that, and if you want to join in with us, it's going to be a fantastic time, one time where you will get to see Scripture come to life, the Bible coming into real life, and you don't want to miss it. You don't want to miss spending a week with me and Brett. That right there is going to be well worth the time that you spend in the trip, and it's going to be a great time experiencing the locations and sites where Jesus was at. The Lord has truly been blessing us. I know Brett is gearing up for a revival coming up, a big tent meeting there, a big countywide revival, and so if you would continue to pray for him and his church as they're planning toward that. Also, if you could help us out, I'll be in Tennessee this week setting up some books and cigars and different things for sale. If you want to go and support our podcast, the easy way to do that is by going to our cigar page. You can also check out my new book, From Brokenness to Freedom. Me and John co-authored this, and we've had a lot of good success in people reaching out to us. I've got a couple of interviews coming up on that, just talking through the book. But it's a great time, a great resource for you if you've ever been hurt in a church abuse world, as well as you just have been broken and you were looking for some counseling, a book that's going to be able to walk you through that. It's eight simple chapters of stages of leaving legalism, but it also can be applied in hundreds of different areas and contexts. If you're struggling with grief, anger, doubt, whatever it may be, this is a great resource for you, a great tool for you on your table to be able to go to as you're struggling. Lots of homework in there, lots of things that you can use to help benefit you in your walk with the Lord. So we hope that's a blessing to you, and looking forward to a couple of things coming up in the future. We've got our state convention for North Carolina coming up. If you're in North Carolina, love to meet with you, love to be around you. If you're going to be in Tennessee this week or around Tennessee this week, I'll be there Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Reach out to me, love to get up with you, meet up. They're in Middle Tennessee, about an hour south of Nashville. I'll be at John's house. There's a small conference down there, and so we're excited about that. Looking forward to our interview today. Hopefully you enjoy it. Stephen Chandler is going to jump on with us here in just a minute and excited about you listening to his story. Hope it's an encouragement to you. As always, if this is a blessing, leave us a rating and review and like and share this on all your social media platforms so that other people can be blessed to hear this interview today. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoy it. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Let grace begin. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. All right, well today we've got Stephen Channer here with us and Steve is willing to come on and share about his time under Mr. Ruckman and PBI. And I want to start out by just asking you, Stephen, your intro. Tell us about yourself, your background, where you're from, and even what you're doing now. Okay, my name is Stephen Channer and I was born and raised in Fort Myers. I got saved at about 11 years old. My parents were going to a large Southern Baptist church, McGregor Baptist church. And, you know, we were just your basic, you know, I'm going to say, yeah, I'll say non-Christian, you know, family. You know, we're going to church. But as far as like under fundamentalism, we weren't a part of fundamentalism then. You know, went to public school. And then on graduation, my brother had found out that Dr. Ruckman was going to PBI. And so that's how I ended up going to PBI to my brother. And then, so I went there right after graduation and graduated from PBI about 2001. Stayed around for about another year after that. Went to deputation for Ukraine. Stayed over in Ukraine for about 10 months. Came back. And that time I met my wife. We got married in 2007. Long story short, now I'm in a, not a Southern Baptist church. I guess they're a part of the Florida Baptist Convention. I'm not sure how they're connected with the Southern Baptist Convention. And we've got eight kids. And right now I'm working a job at the AC manufacturing plant. And just trying to be a faithful church member there at the church that we go to now. Well, good deal. Well, let's talk about your time in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. How did you first get involved in the IFB? What initially attracted y'all to it? So, like I said, it was my brother that got me going into PBI. And at first it was just all the doctrinal teaching, right? So, the church I was going to, they really didn't dive deep into doctrine. You know, how the New Testament works together with the Old Testament. A lot of the, you know, symbolism and typology and stuff like that. And, you know, the relation to Adam and Esau and all that kind of intrigued me as my brother was telling me this stuff over the phone as he was going to PBI. And then it was really, when I visited a couple of times before I went to the PBI, it was the excitement, right? So, you know, I've never seen anybody just, you know, hoop and holler about being safe, you know? The church I went to is, you know, pretty quiet. You know, if anybody said amen or said something like that, people would like turn around and give them a stern look, you know? So, it was that kind of, I guess, say, high Southern Baptist Church, you know? They had the choir, big choir with all of them, you know, fancy robes and stuff like that. The specials that they sang were somewhat, you know, operatic. The pastor's wife did the vibrato pretty well. And so, just the excitement. I remember Jack Patterson getting up there and singing Ship Ahoy at PBI. And, I mean, just the whole place just erupted in cheers and, you know, see people running the aisles and stuff like that. That was, I just laughed, like, the whole time. Because it was like, this is crazy. You know, this is nuts. So, the joy and then excitement and the boldness, you know? They're not ashamed to preach about the Lord. You know, that's something I just, I never, I never seen, you know? I went street preaching with my brother a couple times, you know, before I did it, you know, myself. After I get into the PBI. And just, you know, seeing how people, you know, brothers and sisters in Christ, just actually, you know, dealing with people one-on-one. That's something I just, I never, I never seen before. And so, just the boldness and the joy, really, is what attracted me. Yeah. As we have done research and looked into Ruckman a little bit, and I'm familiar with Ruckman. I've got several churches and friends that are near me that are big into the Peter Ruckman movement. I've got a church that I know of that you walk in their lobby, and to the right is a life-size portrait of Peter Ruckman. Now, you walk in and they'll say, we worship Jesus and we serve Jesus. No man's going to tell us what to do. But the first person you see when you walk in is Peter Ruckman. And so, when you were at PBI, sort of a couple of questions here as we go through it. The first one is, what was your experience like while you were there specifically? I don't know if you were under Ruckman at all and were directly involved in his teaching or maybe had some interaction with him. But what was your experience like while you were at PBI? I'd say it was good. There was a time shortly after I got there where I started to doubt my salvation, and that was a rough time. I remember just kind of wanting to leave and go home because my salvation experience wasn't like a lot of these other guys that were coming in. And all these dramatic changes. A lot of these guys that were coming in were drug addicts, had gotten saved in prison and stuff like that. So, that really didn't line up with how I got saved. And I was just about 11 years old and had an Easter pageant at that church. And I can't really remember what was said after the pageant. But I just remember, you know, the Holy Spirit speaking to me and said, boy, you're not going to make it. And so I bowed my head and received Christ, you know, then and there. And, you know, and I guess just not having, I guess, the type of preaching maybe. But that and teaching, I guess, difficult teaching. Just kind of the regular, you know, every Sunday salvation message and things like that. And I really can't say what was taught as far as on the youth group level. So, I just, for some reason, I just don't, I can't, I can't recall it. I mean, I'm, you know, 45 now. So, that was quite a few years, you know, years ago. But, you know, I know, I know the Holy Spirit's in me. He talks to me, you know. The Lord, you know, has confirmed my salvation many times. But at that point, it was pretty rough. Like I said, I want to leave. But, but after that, you know, the experience was good. I had a good time with all of the brothers there. You know, going to class, learning a lot. You know, it's kind of, it's kind of demanding, I guess, in a way. You know, you have to find a, you have to find your own place to live. You got to, you know, obviously find a job to work and pay your, pay your way through. No one's going to, you know, pay your, pay your bill. And, you know, class of that night, from about 6 to 10, every day, except for, except for Fridays, unless you're taking English. But on Fridays, a lot of us, you know, we played hockey in the gym, floor hockey, basketball, racquetball. Street preaching was, was fun. I don't know. It's, it's, for those that have never been street preaching, there's lots of different styles. Lots of different people do it differently. And the way we were taught is basically just to quote scripture. You know, we weren't taught to, to yell at people and, and, and tell them, you know, you know, how, you know, how they're, how they're dressing the wicked. And they're going healthy and the women need to iron their husband's socks and all that stuff. Like some people do to, to, to get a reaction. Right. Uh, we just quote a scripture and tell them that they need to get saved. You know, um, that's not to say that there weren't a few wild cards in there that, that made some trouble. You know, um, you know, I remember going out to the beach, street preaching. I'm not going to do that ever again, but you know, uh, we did that. Um, and, uh, we just had a good time, you know, fellowship and, um, and serving the Lord, trying to, trying to win folks to the Lord and, and learning the Bible. Yeah. Yeah. When I was in college, we had, uh, uh, a couple of years before I got there, they had initiated a midnight cry and we would go out at midnight and we would preach right beside bars, street preaching. As people were coming out, they were drunk and, uh, we would witness to people and man, you would interact with some crazy people. Um, had one guy, he just, he was like, Hey, I'm, I'm going in that bar. And he went in and he got up on the stage and he started preaching cause they had a little karaoke. And I said, I'm staying outside. Like, I'm not going to have any part of that. And like 10 minutes later, they're like throwing beer bottles at him. They're, they're trying to kick him out. It was crazy. Uh, but I can definitely relate to that as far as being a part of some of that stuff. Brett, what do you got next for us? Well, let's see. Are we, are we still under the three section? Okay. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about while you're there, what was the church culture like as far as the leadership style? What, what did you notice about the leadership style of, of the church? Uh, so Bible, uh, Bible Baptist church is a unique church. Um, you're, you're not going to find it's, it's set up, you know, even in, even a lot of your Ruckmanite churches. Um, to be honest, Dr. Ruckman is very, uh, very hands off. Um, he delegated a lot of stuff to a lot of the other guys, to Brother Donovan, uh, deacons in the church. Um, you know, Dr. Ruckman did not want you coming to him about buying a car or buying a house. You know, he, he would, he would preach against, you know, those preachers that would require, you know, those things of church members. You know, he wasn't, um, PBI was not legalistic in, in that kind of sense. Um, you know, you can say it was legalistic when it came to like to music and obviously, you know, the Bible. So as far as dress standards, you know, there are people that had different dress standards and things. Um, Dr. Ruckman did not look at your giving statements. You know, he didn't want to know anything about that. He just wanted to, you know, preach and, and, and, and write, you know, and minister in the, in the classroom and things like that. Um, so it was very, so it was very open in that, in that sense. Um, and as far as the culture, um, you know, you kind of had like, you kind of had two different cultures because you had the church and then you had the school. And, um, you know, a lot of the members did, did go through the, through the school. Um, but you know, there's, there's, there's, there's a difference after you graduate and kind of hang around versus while you're, while you're in the school. Um, I don't really know how to describe it other than it's like, um, a lot of the guys that were, that were there. Um, if they were around, they were pretty much just kind of waiting until God called them elsewhere. You know, um, there was a, a big push, uh, a major, there's a major push for, for missions at, um, at Bible Baptist. And, uh, and so the, the encouragement to, to go out, you know, and, and do something for the Lord was, was very strong there. Um, you know, like as soon as possible, that's, that's kind of like how I got into going to, to Ukraine and, uh, thought that, um, you know, I needed to go as soon as, you know, as soon as I graduate. Um, but, uh, you know, like there's, there's a few deacons. They don't have a whole lot of deacons. Um, and, uh, yeah, every, um, brother Cagle, um, at that time led the music. And so that was, that was his job was the music, um, brother Turner led visitation. So he pretty much headed that up. Um, uh, street preaching was, I forget if it was during, during the school year. Um, I can't remember exactly who was over that. If that was brother Turner or, uh, brother Ginsky did the, headed up the street preaching during the off season. We would go to, to Milton, um, and, uh, Mobile and other places outside of Pensacola. Uh, so that was, that was kind of his ministry. And, you know, if you wanted to do something, you could, it was, you know, it was open game as to what you wanted to do. You know, if you thought Lord wants you to do something, you could go ahead and do it. There's no, no restrictions, um, as far as that. So it was very, um, very open leadership. But if, but there was, uh, any trouble, uh, it was, it was handled, you know, pretty, pretty swiftly. Um, you know, there would, there would be a, a call after the service or something like that. And, um, you know, they would, they would, they would take care of it. There was only like maybe one or two times where someone was, was brought forward, um, for the church. And, uh, it was, it was after, you know, they had been corrected a few times, but didn't for whatever reason. Um, you know, so there wasn't, I can't say that there was anything, you know, hit under the rug. Um, I'm not aware of any, um, you know, abuse that, that went on, um, at that time. Um, so yeah, the, the leadership style, Dr. Ruggman was ahead, right. But, um, he delegated a lot to the, to the church members. You know, I was thinking through that and also, uh, you going to Ukraine as a missionary. I've got two questions. The first one is how did that environment shape your view of ministry and the gospel? Um, but also personal question for me, what, um, conspiracy theories or crazy things was taught, uh, from Ruggman while you were there? Uh, I know he talked about aliens and Saturn and crazy things. What did you personally do as well? Um, so on the conspiracy stuff, like, I don't know if you've ever read that black is beautiful. Uh, don't ever read that at night. It's, it's, uh, it's, it can be scary. Um, but, uh, you know, being, being a young kid and I, I, you know, I enjoyed all that, you know, uh, cause it was something new, something wild. Um, I remember going somewhere to preach, uh, three preachers with my brother, went to a different town and we came across this little country, um, you know, shack for, for breakfast or whatnot. And there's this one guy, you know, country boy, you know, talking about how, uh, the, um, uh, the burden revelation was connected with, you know, the, uh, the Concord at that time, you know, cause of the Eagle is shaped like an Eagle. And I, I remember that time where I was like, you know, I was latching onto anything. Cause I, like I said, I wasn't taught any kind of Bible at all where I was other than just, you know, basic Bible stories. And, uh, and afterward, my brother was like, yeah, you just kind of need to be, be careful about, you know, what you, what you take in. Cause just because somebody says something from the Bible doesn't, doesn't make it true, you know? And, um, you know, so yeah, there is, there are, like I said, there, there, um, TBI guys are so different. It's just like the IFB there's, there's, there's a broad spectrum. You got some guys that are way crazy into that. Um, the guy that I roomated with was really heavy into, uh, conspiracies. Um, he had a lot of books. He even had some, some Masonic books that you're not supposed to get. I forget how he, how he had them, but he, you know, he was, he's a book collector. He got them. Um, he even had a, uh, 1828 unabridged dictionary, which was really enlightening. Um, but, uh, yeah, the, um, uh, the conspiracies and stuff. Yeah. There's, there's some people that are hardcore into it. Uh, and there's others that aren't, um, what was the, the other, the other questions again? Yeah. How did just the environment that you were in? Oh, I was saying in the gospel. Yeah. So the, uh, I believe as far as like preaching the gospel, the unadulterated, you know, gospel, um, I believe it was, I mean, it was there. I mean, that was like, you know, the main thrust is to win people to the Lord, you know? Um, and that anybody, anybody can get saved. Jesus Christ, you know, died for, for everybody. And, you know, he's, he's wanting everyone to get saved and, you know, whosoever will, and come and, um, you know, and that was, with missions, you know, um, the gospel was very, uh, very real there, you know? Um, and when it comes to the ministry, there wasn't really a negative aspect to the ministry. I remember watching, uh, you know, these missionaries that have come through, uh, Mike Roberts was, was one of them really struck a chord with me because he was a missionary over in Vietnam and just, you know, his, his interactions with the people, uh, was the one thing that really got me to want to be, you know, a missionary. Uh, I don't think God ever really called me to, uh, to be a missionary. Um, but, um, but it, you know, being a missionary was like the, the, the front lines of Christianity, uh, if you will, you know, um, they're, they're the ones that are going out, you know, into all these places where, you know, they'd never heard the gospel, you know, preaching Jesus to them, winning, uh, people to the Lord, building, building churches and then establishing and get them so that they're self-sufficient and then going on and doing it again. Um, you know, so it was, it was, uh, you know, preaching the gospel is something that every Christian should do, you know, um, you know, the militant aspect of that, you know, you know, a Christian should be a soldier, you know, Dr. Ruckman was, was in the army. And lots of guys that came through there were prior military and stuff like that. And so the, the militant thrust of preaching the gospel and getting the gospel out, you know, was there. And so I think as far as the gospel was, I think there was a, my, my opinion, you know, there's, there's a healthy view of the gospel. The unhealthy view I think came from after I'd gotten out and, uh, gotten into a hyper fundamentalist church, um, where, um, you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, there was, I call it a Calvinistic type of preaching of repentance at the hyper fundamentalist where you actually had to like beg God to not pass you by and, you know, um, beg God to grant you repentance, um, in order to, you know, to be saved. And that, that caused me a lot of, a lot of turmoil and a lot of, I would say several hours at the altar, you know, um, but, uh, but at PBI, um, I believe it was, I believe it was a, as a healthy and, um, present as an honorable thing. It's something that a Christian ought to do is to preach the gospel and win souls. Before I ask my next question, I want to piggyback off your, your, your last question. Um, when, when I was at first Baptist Hammond, we would lead people, you know, the gospel was there just like what you were saying, but we would lead people to the Lord on the bus route and then we'd never see him again. There was like zero discipleship. What was your experience in that area? Um, my personal experience, the people that I led to the Lord, uh, sadly, I, I wasn't able to, to follow up on them. I remember a guy named, uh, Chris Eller, he was at some part and I could never, you know, reach back out to him. There was a guy, um, named Hector. I remember him and I wish I could go back and, and, you know, I tried to give him a Bible, but I, but I never went back. Um, and I, to this day, like I said, I remember those names and I, you know, I regret not doing it, but there, there was a, um, you know, when, whoever you witnessed to like on visitation, you know, you were supposed to go back and, and, um, you know, and, and, and retouch with them, trying to try to disciple them. Uh, that was, that was part of our visitation class was to go out and, uh, not just, you know, talk to somebody, but to, um, but to bring him to church, to disciple them, you know, do followups and stuff like that. Um, that was something brother Turner was, um, uh, that was part of your, part of your, part of your grade. Um, and they had a military ministry. So there are guys coming in, um, you know, all over, but as far as like the amount of people that, that got saved and got brought into the church and then discipled and grew up in the church, you know, I, you know, I couldn't really give you a number. I don't really remember seeing that a whole lot. Um, but, uh, but there wasn't any easy believism, you know what I'm saying? Um, I remember going out with a friend of mine from, from PBI that I still talk to to this day. And, uh, we went to, to a, um, uh, one of the department complexes and witnessed to him went into this one guy and, uh, he was, you know, we were, we were dealing, he said he was a Christian, right? A lot of people in South say that they're Christian, say they're saved. And after we got done talking, talking to him, you know, he, uh, my friend, his name is Brian. He's like, so would you have any problem trying to lead that, lead that guy to the Lord, even though he said that he was saved? I was like, no, he's like, good. Cause there, there were some that, you know, they, they do. Um, I think it's just a human nature, all nature tendencies to, to, to get, to get a response, you know? Um, but, uh, but as far as easy believism, it wasn't, it wasn't like the Hiles type, I guess I could say. Good deal. Good deal. So I want to talk about the King James issue. I want to know if it was such a big issue and I, and before you answer, I'll tell you, I'll be searching through clips on Tik TOK and things like that. And I'll hear guys say, oh, the King James can correct the Greek. And it makes me think, oh, is he a, is he a Ruckmanite is, you know, so speak into that. What, what, what was that like? So, yeah. Um, uh, yeah, that was, that was, that was taught, you know, the, the English corrects the Greek, um, and so whether that's uniquely Ruckman, I don't know. Dr. Ruckman got a lot of his beliefs from a lot of different places. Um, uh, yeah, the, so the, the issue of the King James Bible, uh, one of the questions that you guys sent, I'll put, I'll put it like this, the mindset of it, right? Right. So the King James is the Bible, right? That's, that's the standard, whether, uh, how you agree with that or not, you know? Um, and so that's the standard, that's the basis. That's our foundation. And someone tries to go to change that. And if it is changed, if it is wrong, if the Bible is the word of God, and then we can't trust the word of God, then what do we have? Right. So that's the mindset. That's why it's, it's such a big issue. Um, but, uh, yeah, you'll find, you'll find clips of, of, uh, Sam Gipp, you know, saying that the, um, you know, you have, in order to get the truth of the word of God, you've got to go to the English. And, uh, you know, I don't, just because of all the different languages, I don't, I don't, I can't, I can't hold to that anymore. You know, um, now do I, do I still love the King James Bible? Yes. Do I still read my King James Bible? Yes. Am I to the point where I can say that every version is the word of God? I'm, I'm not there yet. You know, um, there's, there's just enough differences where I'm like, eh, you know, um, but I am not to the point where a lot of guys are, where, you know, if you read a different Bible, then, then you're lost, you know, um, even at PBI, it, the, it was not taught that if you read a different version that you were lost, right? It wasn't taught that if you got led to the Lord outside of a different version that, that you never were saved, you know, that, that was never taught. Um, but, um, but, uh, the issue is that Jesus Christ is so connected with the word of God, with, uh, the written word that, you know, they, they find any, any deviation from the King James is almost like a, a deviation, you know, from the Lord. Um, and, uh, you know, so that's, that's kind of like the mindset. Yeah. I remember, um, Sam Gipp was, was big in our teaching as well. Um, and one of the, the things that helped me, uh, understand the King James only debate was the Ankerberg debate. Um, Sam Gipp was on there with, you know, four or five King James only guys, and he's asking a couple of questions, sort of a bait and switch type question to sort of hook them. Um, and then they're near the end, it's like four parts or five, four, um, you know, a couple hours long. The, uh, one of the other guys asks him a question and then I think it was James White and then switched the question the way he answered. And he goes, Whoa, you got bait and switch me on that. And he goes, you've been doing that the whole time. Like, uh, but it was just so eyeopening to hear that and to see that debate. If you've never watched, it's a great one. Um, so I want to sort of transition the conversation to why you left or the reasons you left, uh, the decision for leaving PBI, um, and ultimately the IFB movement. You said you're part of a Florida Baptist network, SBC church. Um, the, the question we often ask is this, was this a specific turning point, an event that happened in life or was this a gradual shift in, in, in leaving the movement? Um, so I left, you guys, I graduated, right. And, uh, I was going on deputation, uh, to, to Ukraine. Um, so that was really the reason for leaving PBI. Um, long story short, you know, I ended up, uh, after deputation going into a, uh, like I said, the hyper fundamentalist church, I didn't really see it as a hyper fundamentalist church. I had a friend of mine that, uh, was, was at that same church. Um, and, uh, he, he kind of warned me and, you know, saying that the pastor had these, uh, legalistic tendencies and stuff like that. And I was like, no, he's not, he's not, he's not legalist, you know, and legalism being, um, you know, Lordship salvation and stuff like that, you know? And, uh, but shortly after I was like, yeah, okay, I can see it, but you know, you know, whatever, you know, I was not, um, like I said, PBI is not very legalistic, right? So the doctor would never preach on, um, you know, dress code standards and things like that. Um, now he had his, he had very high personal standards, um, but he didn't preach them. Um, and, but the, the church that I went to after I, uh, got off deputation, um, he did preach, he did preach high, high legalistic standards and, you know, went to all the verses on Isaiah about, you know, you know, uncovering the thigh and uncovering the locks and stuff like that, you know? Um, and, um, and so I got, I forget what it was, but he had, he had made some, some statement that got me to question it. And, um, and I eventually, you know, I, you know, gave in and said, you know, okay, yeah, you know, you're right. You know, women should wear everything down to the floor and mention wear shorts and, and, um, you know, not too much makeup on the, on the women and all that. And, and, um, he was really big on, on repentance. And, um, I think he was right to a certain extent about repentance being a, being a, not just a change of mind. However, like I said, it was so, you know, you almost had to beg God for that, for that repentance. Um, and, uh, uh, it was actually through that passage. There was, my son wrote an email to a girl and the next four weekends, the next four Sundays, the, every sermon was directed at my son. Um, because that was viewed as, you know, a no, no, just an email. There was nothing perverse in the email, um, that I can remember as of right now. It was just an email that was to a girl. Right. And the whole courtship thing, right. You know, you're not supposed to do anything without the eyeballs of your parents being on there, you know, everywhere. Um, the, the hyper sexuality was, was very big. Um, you know, guys don't touch girls, you know, you don't look at girls. Um, you know, it's that, that extreme. Um, and, and so that, that it's a miracle that my, that my oldest son is in, is in church to this day because of all that. Um, and my wife was, was, was ready, was ready to leave that church. Me, I was like, I didn't see it. I was like, I was so blind brother. I was like, no, he doesn't, he can't, he can't be doing that on purpose. You know, he can't. And he, and he would say that he, that he didn't, you know, he would say it was just of the Lord. And, you know, looking back, it's like, you know, brother, come on, you know, you know, for four weeks straight, you know, you're talking person A, person B, you know, and person B being the bad one. I mean, there's only two feet, it's a small church. So everybody knew what was going on. Everybody knew who he was preaching at, you know, it's not like you can't just, um, you just can't preach on something and not, and people not, not know about it, you know? And, um, uh, and there are some other things that are going on in that church where people were questioning the pastor about it. And eventually the pastor just, just resigned. He, he gave the church shoulders to another brother, um, who, uh, at the time was listening to the RFP and got me listening to the RFP and got me to change my mindset on a lot of different things, especially standards and stuff like that. Um, and so that was kind of our exodus out of the RFP. Um, we were kind of an RFP light church because the brother said, look, I can, I can take, I can, I can take you people, but I can't reach this church, right? It's gotta be a different church. We renamed the church. Um, and, um, and then another blow up happened, which, uh, which was, which was really bad. Um, and so that pastor resigned and it's caused us to, to move to the church that we're at now. Um, you know, my wife couldn't, couldn't take being in a hyper fundamentalist church. So there, there's several King James Baptist churches, um, in, in our area. And she was like, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to be a part of a stuffy, you know, legalistic church. You know, I just, I just can't do it. And our, our, our kids can't handle it. Um, and, uh, and so we ended up going to this church. It's a very large church. Um, I wasn't quite comfortable with it, you know, because I knew what, what I had come from, uh, as far as what I was, you know, grew up in. And, you know, I didn't, um, um, I didn't want that from my kids, but the kids enjoyed it. And anything that's going to keep the joy of them going to church and then hearing about the Lord, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm for because brother, the, the, the church that we were at, there was nothing for the kids, you know, like everything was there, you know, in the church, uh, um, in the main service. Right. Like they, they did try to do Sunday school for the kids, you know, um, later on, but like it, um, you know, the Lord, the Lord has this little rat for a reason. And, and, and I'm thankful for it. It's a, uh, I believe it's a, it's a safe church. They take, you know, kid safety very seriously. Like I said, it's a large church. They got a good tracking system. Um, you know, uh, making sure that the parents or that the adult is with, with, with the kid, you know, like they, they got these little tags. So no one can just come up and take your kid, you know, out of there. You've got to have the tag. Um, and it was funny because if there was one parent that, that was there, a newer parent didn't have it. And the person was the workers like, no, I can't, sorry. You got to go down and get a, get a ticket. You know, you gotta, you know, they, they wouldn't let them take it. And parent was kind of a little irritated, but I just kind of laughed and smiled. I'm like, that's good. Yeah. So I, I, I appreciate it. Um, and, uh, um, but yeah, so it was, it was not like a, an individual personal decision. It was just kind of circumstances that, that let us out. Yeah. I can definitely relate to that with the larger church mindset. Uh, when we moved back to North Carolina 10 years ago now, um, we began visiting a lot of little small independent churches that I knew and was just still trying to get into that world. Um, and everyone, my wife was like, Nope, not going here. Nope, not going to happen. Um, and so right around the corner of our house was a large, Southern Baptist church. I knew about it, but I'm like, this is Southern Baptist. Like I can't go there. If I go, I'm going to lose my salvation. Like this is horrible. Um, and so we finally went one day, literally it was right around the corner. We always went left because I didn't want her to see it. Um, and then we followed it right. She was like, why don't we go there? Uh, we went in great children's ministry. The preaching was phenomenal. Um, and when we picked our kids up from that first service, he said, James, I think we found our church. I'm like, okay, it's a Southern Baptist. Like I've got to, I've got to find out some things. And so I sat down with the youth pastor and we talked for a while, but, uh, he was Liberty grad. And so it was, uh, I can understand that same mindset and that same shift that you're going through as well. Brett, why don't you ask our last question? Then we'll close it down for any final thoughts. Well, we, we want to see if you can give some advice for those searching for church or leaving the IFB. So one of the last questions we want to ask is what would you say to someone who's starting to question their IFB church or upbringing? Oh yeah. Question it. You know, um, just go to the scripture. You know, uh, I would not tell anybody to, that is a bad thing to question. I mean, you know, Job question, the disciples question, Jesus, you know, Jesus never rebuked them for, for questioning. You know, it's not anything bad to question. If you're questioned, just, just go to the scripture, um, you know, uh, and, and check to see what's, what's so check content, uh, context, you know, that's one thing I'm, I'm glad I'm really thankful for it at PBI is, you know, I can say that I was taught to, to learn to read the Bible. Um, sadly, I did not exercise that, uh, the practice in, in reading context in every situation, because if I had done that, then I would have been questioning a lot of things that my, uh, IFB pastor, you know, would have, would have said, you know, and, um, you, you, you can't just take the one verse that, that they're using and, and run with it and say, oh, yeah, that's what it means. No, you gotta read the chapter or, uh, yeah, read the chapter before it, you know, maybe even read the whole book, you know, just to see what's, what's really going on, who's talking to. But, uh, if you got questions, go to the scripture, you know, ask the Lord to show you, um, get outside your echo chamber, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's what I did. Um, you know, listen to the RFP, um, even, I even listened to the, the, the guys that, you know, RFP people don't, don't like, uh, I listened to Calvinists, I listened to non-Calvinists, I listened to, um, uh, there, there's some, not often, but there's some hyper, like, um, uh, I don't say hyper, but there's people with different, uh, end times views and stuff like that. People with different views on the rapture, uh, people with different views on, on just everything. And, uh, you know, I listened to them. Um, sometimes I agree with them. Sometimes I can point out scriptures that they're not taken into consideration or things, you know? And so, you know, I don't all, you know, agree. I don't just swallow everything that everyone teaches, but, you know, get outside your echo chamber, um, read the scriptures. Pray, you know, fast, ask, ask the Lord to show you. Um, you know, if you're, but if you're questioning, it's okay to question. You may end up, uh, disagreeing with what you're being taught and you may end up agreeing. You may, it may be, maybe a place where the Lord, you know, where the Lord wants you. You know, there's, um, in this whole process, I've learned that there, the body of Christ is a very diverse body. You know, um, I was listening to, um, uh, the Roy's report podcast and talking about a situation. And, and, uh, one of the people on there was, was talking about how the body is different. And this person was pointing out things that the other body couldn't see, you know, and I can see, but a finger can't see, you know? And so there's different parts of the body and the different members. We all help each other. And, you know, if you hurt the body, you know, your pinky toe gets hurt, the whole body reacts to it. Right. And so there's, there's different parts for everybody in the body of Christ and not everybody's going to be the same. Um, I think that's one thing that the IFB gets wrong is that they want everyone to be a cookie cutter. They want everybody to believe like them, think like them, act like them. Um, and, and, you know, so yeah, question, um, but just go to the Lord. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one thing, like even in my college upbringing, we would, uh, they would get up and they would teach, uh, let's just say the rapture, uh, and they would only teach that view. And they would say there's many other views, but we don't even need to think about it because this is the right way. And, um, a good theological understanding is studying every aspect. And every other one, and then letting your position defend itself based on scripture and based on other things. Um, and so that, that's one of the interviews that I go to often is the John MacArthur and, uh, R.C. Sproul on baptism. Uh, you know, we were taught baptism was by immersion. Uh, Jesus was a Baptist cause he was baptized by John the Baptist. And, you know, we, we've heard those things. Um, but they never defended either side. Uh, they just defend their side. They never allowed for the argument of like pedo baptism. Um, and John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul, great friends, loved each other in the ministry, but had a very cordial debate back and forth on what they believed. They walked away. Neither one of them agreeing with what the other one said, but they walked away with good friends. And they had this good debate. And I think we often don't have that in ministry. And then the IFB, we just want to preach what we believe and not preach the other side and say, Hey, this is why we believe what we believe. This is the errors of the other side versus they're just wrong. Um, and so I appreciate you saying that because I think that's a good thing. Uh, any final thoughts for you? I appreciate you coming on today and I appreciate you sharing your time and story with under Ruttman. Yeah, I would say the, the biggest thing that I've gotten out of, out of, you know, does the, all, all the stuff that's gone on the last few years, literally since, yeah, since COVID, all this stuff that's happened, um, or a little bit before, about a year before. Um, the biggest thing that I've learned is, is grace. Um, you know, I will say that that's probably the one thing that's, that's lacking not only in the IFB, but in, you know, some of these, um, um, PVI churches is the lack of grace. And, you know, it is kind of funny because, you know, they, they would say, you know, all these other different churches used to gather around and have these tent meetings and have all these revivals together. And, you know, um, Dr. I want to say even back in the day, you know, the meetings that, that he was at, that, you know, you'd have Lester Roth and all these other, other different preachers that were not aligned the same theologically. Right. You know, and they would, they would rib each other on, on their different beliefs in, in the meeting, but they would, they would preach and preach the gospel. People get saved. And then they, you know, fellowship all afterwards. And that is not today. People just do not have, don't have grace. They don't have grace with the Bible version issue. They don't have grace with music. They don't have grace with dress, different theological, you know, beliefs and stuff like that. And, you know, there's, you know, I'm, you know, I agree with, you know, theological, you know, triage and stuff like that, but, you know, there's, there are some things that are more important, but, you know, making everything the main issue isn't, it's not healthy, you know? And, um, it's just, grace is a big issue that I believe is, is lacking in a lot of IFP churches. Amen. That's a good word. And, uh, thank you for coming on again. Uh, make sure you like and share this and that this has encouraged you, uh, please go and share this episode as well. Uh, but until next time to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning. It has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast or whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the for freedom podcast.tletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletle

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