184. Fundmental Footprints - Lester Roloff, Peter Ruckman, Tom Malone, & Carl Hatch

For freedom, he set me free, not for chains, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory justified, released. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, he set me free, not for chains, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. For freedom, he set me free, not for chains, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Let grace begin. For freedom, he set me free, not for chains, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. What a great time it is to be able to record today. Today will be our final episode of the Fundamental Footprints. The old guys, the guys who went on before, who plowed the way for the fundamental side of it. And we'll jump into that here in a little bit. We are going to look at, in the future, we'll give you sort of a look here. We're going to be going through the future of fundamentalism. Those that were a part of it and have left, and those that are still a part of the fundamentals movement, the IFB movement. We want to share some of those modern day stories. These are guys that are still living. And those are guys that are still on the scene today and excited about some interviews we have coming up with that. But, Brett, we are in the first week of September. Man, the fall is here. Hopefully, we don't get a false fall, and it breaks back up into the 90s and 100s, and I go to sweating again. But I always enjoy the fall weather. If you're a PSL guy, pumpkin spice latte or apple cinnamon, I don't know which one you are. If you're either one of them, my wife has been stocking the fridge with pumpkin spice creamer and different things like that. I'm just a traditional French vanilla guy. Where are you standing on that? Are you a PSL guy or no? You know, I mean, to be honest, since it's just, it comes a season every year, it doesn't, you know, it's not around very long. I do like a little pumpkin spice. I'm not going to lie. I don't mind a little pumpkin spice. But you got the coffee. You got the pumpkin spice fresheners. You got the pumpkin spice candles. You got the pumpkin spice potpourri. My wife would make me wear a pumpkin spice cologne if they made it. But pumpkin spice everywhere. But I do always enjoy this time of year, fall time, leaves changing color, things like that. It's a great, great season. And let me, I should have mentioned this. I should have mentioned this last week and I didn't. Did you see what JC did to that sermon clip of me that he posted? Did you see the chop? Best meme I've ever seen. Best reinvention of someone trying to cheer on the worst team in college football last year. I think they didn't win a game at all. And so he had to pull out a big time preacher man trying to chop him on. And yeah, that was awesome. I loved it. Yeah. You know, if it was the Braves, I would be like, yeah, chop on. I'm a big Braves fan. But yeah, I digress. I mean, the timing of it was just so awesome too. Like it fit perfect. I was amazed. I didn't have to speed the clip up at all. It just, it fit perfectly. Yeah, it did. Man, that was awesome. Hey, I want to give a quick plug to our cigars. If you've never experienced one of our cigars, go by and check them out. We are getting closer to holiday season where people are looking to buy some gifts. Maybe it's a birthday or Christmas time. What a great present that would be to a father or grandfather that may enjoy that. Or just a hobby that you can enjoy with friends and family. Go over to our website. Also to 1689.com backslash for freedom cigars. And you can check those out. And we've got a big, big thing coming out here in the future that we've been working on with a couple of different people. And it's a little way where you can support the podcast and be a part of some things that are going on. I'll be next week. I'll be in Tennessee at a conference in Tullahoma with some big name guys, James White, Jeffrey Rice, and some other guys. And we'll have some things set up there with a booth, selling some books, hanging out, getting to know some people. So if you're in the area, if you're in the Tennessee area, let us know. We'd love to get there with you and get together that 11th, 12th, and 13th of September. Brett, we've got some things else coming up. Big trip in January. You want to tell us about that? Oh, yes. We are going to Israel. And, man, I'm looking forward to our trip. It's getting closer. It's getting ready. We are getting ready, getting things together. And we want to invite you. And if you have ever, if you want to come with us to Israel, our trip is, you know, last of January, beginning of February. And, man, now's the time to go. There's still time. You still have time to join our trip with us, to get your deposit in, to get your payments in. There's still time. Let me tell you, you will never regret going to the promised land, to the Holy Lamb. The tours are there. It's safe. It's open. You'll probably be safer there now than you ever will have an opportunity to be safe there in the future. And let me tell you now, you're never going to regret going. It brings the Bible to life. I love to share it with my family and my church. And so we've got some spots. And we want to put it before you, if you're a listener and you'd like to go, hit us up. DM us on social media. Tell us you're interested in the trip. We'll get you the information. I'm telling you, you're not going to want to miss this. Absolutely. Brett, we have been, listen, AI and some of the things with AI right now has been crazy. And we have been experimenting a little bit with some music. And by now, I know that we have two albums out on Spotify. I know you can access them on TikTok. They're still not out on iTunes. I'm still trying to work out the kinks to get them out on iTunes and Apple Music. But you can go to Spotify. You can look up my name or For Freedom Music. And you can access that. We have had a fun time putting together. Right now, we've got about 11 songs out. We've got five that are with just talking about what For Freedom is about and some different music. One about me and Brett. And then I put out a family song. All of my kids wanted a song. And so I made up some songs for them and put some music to it. And just recently, I decided, you know, I'm going to go through and I'm going to put together an album of the men of God. And I want to just share some of the titles that we've got for this, Brett, to help some of our listeners out. We've got The Pistol Packing Preacher. This is J. Frank Norris. We've got Jack Howes. And, you know, Jack Howes, he doesn't need any other explanation other than Jack Howes. And so we just titled it Jack Howes. We've got The Preacher with the Sword. This is John R. Rice and the Sword of the Lord. The Ballad of TTU, Three to Thrive. That would be our Lee Robertson episode. The Pulpit King of Longview. This is Bob Gray Sr. Down in Pensacola Town, Peter Ruckman, which is one of these episodes we're talking about today. That one, I think, is one of my favorite songs that I've put out that we made. Roll Off in the Homes. The Sword in His Hand. Curtis Hudson taking over from John R. Rice. The Rise and Fall of Bob Gray. This is the one in Florida. This was a fun one. I was trying to figure out some 12 big guys. And my mind went to Jack Chick of Chick Tracks. And so I titled it Tiny Tracks and Fiery Facts. Great song. You want to listen to this when it comes out. The Ballad of Jim Vineyard. And the Voices Across the Airway of Oliver B. Green. So 12 songs on an album coming out called The Men of God. It's going to be a great time. Hopefully you'll go and listen to it. They're on Spotify, TikTok Music, and hopefully soon on Apple Music as well. I know a lot of our listeners are Apple fans and have Apple Music. And it's also on Amazon Music. If you've got an Amazon account and you pay for the Amazon Music, you can go on there and listen to it. Subscribe to it. Like it. And hopefully we'll be putting out some more stuff here soon. And excited about that. Let me tell you, I got a lot of comments about our new intro song on the podcast. Yeah. A lot of people tell me how cool it was and how much they liked it, enjoyed it. Have you gotten some good comments on it? Absolutely. Yeah. I've had many guys reach out to me about that. Kiefer Likens. I want to give him a shout out. He's the guy there in Texas that made that for us. I sent him a couple of ideas that we were wanting and stylistic of music. And he popped that out, wrote it for us. And man, what a great, great job he did on that. Just cost me a couple of cigars that I mailed him. And he's enjoying that. But yeah, he's doing some great stuff down there too. And looking forward. We were going to meet him in Texas when we were down there at the convention. But his schedule changed and we weren't able to meet. But yeah, he's a great guy. And great. Thank you again, Kiefer, for making that for us. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so we are, I think that's pretty much all of the housekeeping things we've got going on, right? Yeah, absolutely. So let's jump in and we're going to explore today the people, the places, and the power structure. We've titled it The Legends, The Loud, and The Legacy Builders. These are the people that have shaped the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement. Of course, we have talked through Jack Howes, Dave Frank Norris, John R. Rice, a lot of those guys we talked about. But today we're going to talk about some different guys, right? Absolutely. You know, we've spent a lot of time on institutions. And now we're going to take a step back or we're going to zoom into some key figures in the movement. Men whose they're preaching, their writing, their ministry philosophies have left a deep imprint on the IFB world. Like, you may have been in your IFB church and been influenced by these men and not even known it. Like, my pastor went to pastor school and he would be influenced by different men and bring that back to our church and implement that. And so we would have this impression on from some of these men that we didn't even know that they were influencing us. So these key figures, they've had a lot of influence in the Independent Fundamental Baptist world. Yeah. And in the future, we may come back and do a whole episode on one or two of these. But for sake of time and the way that the schedule has been rolling, we decided to lump these four together. We're going to be talking about Lester Roloff, Peter Ruckman, Tom Malone, and Carl Hatch. Each of these men, they represent a different flavor of the IFB, Brett. They are, they have such a different flair, but in each and every one of them, they have had some huge movement and some huge understanding of shaping the IFB in the way they are. And so by understanding who they are, it helps us understand the movement as a whole and sort of what spawns out of this. Exactly. So let's start with the first one. We're going to start with Lester Roloff. So I'll give you some background information. Lester Roloff was born in 1914. He was a Texas preacher who gained national attention through his radio program, The Family Altar, and through his chain of homes for troubled youths. Now, I've heard about these homes. I've always heard about these homes, even after Lester Roloff was gone. I know some people. I think I have a lady in my church that used to work in one of these homes. Yeah, absolutely. Lester Roloff, he was, the way we've entitled his is the prophet of separation. He would say that they were troubled youth. And what we're talking about here is boys and girls who have been through trauma. They've been through drugs. They've been through broken homes. And Roloff believed in a no-nonsense, strict biblical discipline approach. His homes were founded on prayer, fasting, King James-only preaching, and very little tolerance for what he called worldliness. And when we say worldliness, this coffee, I drink two cups of coffee every morning. Coffee was not allowed. It was of the devil. Caffeine, you couldn't have it. So worldliness was huge in his mindset. If it was against what he believed, it was worldliness. James, I don't know if I could have handled that. I have to have my caffeine. Oh, absolutely. That is just a must. It's another reason why I couldn't be Mormon. Yeah. Tony Hudson would always share about when Curtis Hudson, big-time preacher, we haven't done really an episode on him. I could talk about he was the successor to the Sword of the Lord. He would always say when Lester Roloff would come in, his dad would get super grumpy because he would come in for a week and preach the Sword of the Lord or do something for them. And when he would come in, they would have to purge the house of coffee because coffee wasn't allowed in the house while Lester was there. And he said by day two or three, all his dad was fit to be tied. He was angry. He was mad. He'd get up and preach hellfire and brimstone. He said, my dad was never like that. He said, and I never could figure out why until I got older and I realized the coffee left the house when Lester Roloff came. Oh, that's great. But, you know, these homes became controversial. And, you know, if you know anything about the documentaries that did the documentary not too long ago, kind of the same thing happens with these homes. In the 70s and the 80s, the state of Texas began investigating claims of abuse. Roloff refused state licensing and saw government oversight as persecution. Yeah, he's a major figure because he taught that many in the IFB that persecution was proof of faithfulness. If you were persecuted, then you have been faithful to the cause of Christ. And that mentality that if the government or culture pushes back, you must be doing something right. And so this became baked into the DNA of many IFB churches and schools. We're not going to be accredited. We're not going to have a license in. We're not going to do any of these things because if we do, then we're getting the stamp of proof from the government and we're not being faithful. And so we're going to go against that and we're going to have pushback. And that pushback is going to prove to the world that look at us. We're a martyr and we're being faithful to the cause of Christ. Exactly. You know, it's surprising to think, and I don't know if you know this or not, but there are still places today that hold roll-off day services and they kind of preach his sermons like they're scripture. And they hold this guy to, you know, high esteem and whatnot. And, you know, that celebrity culture in the IFB has always been a problem. And I've mentioned this before, after Jack Hiles died, I remember sitting in First Baptist Church Hammond and listening to people pray to Dr. Hiles and talk to him from the pulpit. We can't find the clip, but I promise you, I didn't imagine it. I heard Ray Young pray to Dr. Hiles behind the pulpit at First Baptist Church. And that's a problem with the celebrity culture. And a lot of people have elevated Lester Roloff to that status. Yeah, absolutely. You can see, if you just do some basic search, you can see the history of who he was. And I want to make a plug here for the We Are One podcast. They have done some extensive research an entire season on Lester Roloff and Preacher Boys as well. They've covered this extensively. They've had some interviews of ladies and some guys who have come that were a part of those homes. And we've got an interview next week with a guy who was under Lester Roloff, actually ran one of the homes shortly after he had passed away. And it was one of the men's homes and one of the, I think, the boys' homes. They had men, women, boys, and girls' homes. So four different ones. And he gave some pretty good insights. Jason Tackett's his name. And so that'll be next week as we discuss that a little bit. As we move on, we're going to talk about the man here, the King James Warrior, we're calling him. This guy is known as Mr. Peter Ruckman. Mr. Peter Ruckman. Man, we're talking about controversial. We're talking about conspiracy. Ruckman was brilliant. He had a brilliant mind, wrote books, but he was so divisive. Man, he was a pastor, an author, a founder of Pensacola Bible Institute. This is not Pensacola Christian College. Not affiliated with it one bit, but oftentimes gets confused with that. And so Ruckman, yeah, he was a crazy figure. We're going to talk about it here in a minute. Yeah, Ruckman, the only thing I know as far about, is like first like watching Peter Ruckman is all the racist clips I've seen from YouTube. Yeah. Like literally like blatant, open racism. Very easy to find on YouTube, this stuff. Seen it with my own eyes, heard it with my own ears. So there's absolutely no doubting that. He's most known for his militant King James only position. And he didn't just say King James was the best translation. He taught that it was an inspired translation. I get this, corrected the Greek and Hebrew. And when you hear, we still hear preachers today parrot this, this, so this ignorant statement that just has no, no basis in reality and fact. And you feel so bad for a preacher that, that, that parrots this line. It's so incredibly, pardon my language, stupid. Yeah, no, I agree a hundred percent. And this is, this is called Ruckmanism and you'll hear it today. All you got to do is listen to a couple of bad preacher clips and you'll hear some guys that'll say that the King James corrects the Hebrew and the Greek. And it's, yeah, his followers are called Ruckmanites. You'll, you'll hear and you can encounter some Ruckmanites. I've got a whole group of Ruckmanites here close by where I'm at over in Rockwell, North Carolina. They've got a picture of, of Peter Ruckman. When you walk into the sanctuary, a massive portrait. That's a huge, huge thing of, of just being able to, to lift up that man. And this is the Ruckmanites. They'll reject any pastor or teacher who uses a different translation. Even in private study. You can go back and listen to the Nathan Gravatt episode where he had that debate with James Canup or Jim, or Mitch, Mitch Canup and a different Canup, Mitch Canup where he, and Mitch Canup would have been a Ruckmanite. And one big, these big things, I didn't put this in our notes. One of the big things about Ruckman is they would always, if you are watching online or you're watching a teacher and they've got a whiteboard or a blackboard, a chalkboard behind them, that's a big sign that that's probably a Ruckmanite because that's how Peter Ruckman taught. He taught with the blackboard behind him and a piece of chalk, and that's how he would preach and teach. And a lot of these people began to adopt the harsh tone that he had as well. Exactly. Here's another tale. If you hear somebody talk about the law of first mentions, that's a big point. You might be a Ruckmanite if we could do a whole book of Jeff Foxworthy jokes. Hey, I have a binder right here on my shelf. Biblical interpretations and hermeneutics. First chapter, law of first mentions that I was taught by college. Yes. So listen, this guy, he's very abrasive. He had a combative writing style. He referred to Christian leaders who disagree with him using nicknames and mockery. He called them Alexandrian apostates and Bible correctors. And this guy, in my opinion, just embodied the worst possible attributes of the IFB. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and Brett, his commentaries and books are still in circulation today. I was at a bookstore just the other day, and I saw his commentaries were still there. People were still using them. His influence runs deep, especially in churches that view the intellectual or theological nuance as a threat where they say, oh, we can't handle this. We've got to, this is a threat to what we believe. So, yeah. Exactly. And this was a guy who weaponized the Bible and taught others to weaponize the Bible. He taught people to argue before they learn to understand, to just take these false statements as gospel because he said them. And it weaponized the Bible in a horrible way and just did a lot of damage. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things about Ruckman that I didn't know was he wasn't a big named guy in our college, but we had a guy, his name was Buddy Blunkall. You may have heard that name. And to the best of my knowledge, he was a big Ruckmanite, a big follower of Ruckman and taught a lot of his stuff. You can look at his teaching. Love Brother Buddy. Great friend and great teacher. He's going to be with the Lord now. Well, Buddy, I was at a church in Idaho and we played a church called Treasure Valley Baptist Church and Treasure Valley Baptist Church. They, I went upstairs into a room and they had this massive room with graphics and weird things on the wall. And they were Ruckman's images that had blown up and put on the wall, almost like wallpaper. And they were huge Ruckmanite church. Came to find out Buddy Blunkall preached at that church every year, which was further proof that he was a Ruckman and followed the teaching of Ruckman. But Ruckman had some crazy theories and some conspiracy theories. I just pulled up just a couple. He taught that UFOs were connected to demonic activity. He taught that the U.S. government was hiding truths about aliens. And he even suggested that the Roman Catholics behind everything from all the world wars to the assassinations. And so those are just a couple. He, he, he would misinterpret scripture often. The one specifically is in the Old Testament where it says that the, the, the, the scroll was floating through the air and he takes that as a UFO. I may be getting that a little wrong, but just a crazy, crazy theory. And he was one of those guys where he would just go with it. Next up. You know, we've got a UFO coming in our solar system right now. Oh, I've been watching it. Yeah. Yeah. I've been hearing about it. Here it comes, man. Here. The rapture's coming. That's right. Next up. We've got the preacher's preacher. This is Tom Malone. Tom Malone. Probably a little more or less known today. He was big in, in my time. I knew of him. I heard a lot about him, but in his time, he was one of those giants figures. He pastored Emmanuel Baptist church in Patonic, Michigan. He founded the Midwestern Baptist college, which has since closed its doors. The church has closed its doors and the college operate on a small non-existent scale up in the North Midwestern area. And it's sad to see, because when you begin to look through this college and this church, they were doing some huge things. And in 2014, they officially sold all their properties and, and closed the doors officially to the church. You know, the first experience I ever had with Tom Malone was going to house Anderson and moving into the Malone dorm. And that's the first time I'd ever heard the name. And, uh, you know, they talked about him being a cowboy preacher and things like that. But Malone had a deep burden for revival. He was a preacher's preacher. He was biblical, passionate and grounded. His sermons focused heavily on salvation, repentance, and holy living. Yeah. Yeah. He trained hundreds of pastors who will lead churches all across the country. Uh, but like Lee Robertson, uh, he helped build the machine of the organization. One that measured spirituality by the success of numbers. And, uh, oftentimes when we begin to put those, those things together there, it's a means to an end in multiple worlds. And at the very end, I'm going to quote something by, by JC and Mark Millione that, uh, we had received after the episode with JC. And I think it's going to shed some light on, on even Malone and Lee Robertson on how things go. Okay. Uh, what, what's different with Malone is that you sense the real depth of sincerity. He wasn't theatrical. He wasn't a cult of personality. He wanted men to preach the word faithfully and love their people. Yeah. And the culture that he helped shaped still lean toward conformity, very strict views on clothing, on music, on dating, on entertainment. Um, even if it wasn't militant, the movement became that way in time. Uh, we always see this generation begin to go further and further in to this path. Uh, Brett, Carl Hatch, the sole winner with the stopwatch. I think you've got more stories of Carl Hatch than I do. Uh, I think he was big in house Anderson side. So, so why don't you jump in and give us our last figure of the day? You know, Carl Hatch, I probably know more about of the, of all of these. I actually, I was thinking back and I had forgot to tell you this, but I actually sat in an iron skillet in, uh, Sherryville, Indiana and sat and had a meal at the same table with Carl Hatch. And it was years and years and years ago. And then when I came to, when I came to Bethel and started going to tri-state, I stayed in the Carl Hatch dorm and Carl Hatch would come to Bethel every year and preach a revival. And, uh, so I've been around Carl Hatch a lot, but Carl Hatch is one of those guys in, in the IFB world. Um, if you, if you always heard stories like Carl Hatch led five people to Christ in the gas station bathroom, or he won his cab driver to the Lord in 30 seconds. And Carl Hatch is definitely on the list of people who've witnessed to Elvis. Um, a lot of IFB preachers say Jack house, said he witnessed to Elvis. Carl Hatch is one of those guys. They will also claim he witnessed to Elvis. And I'll, I'll, I'll tell you this one story before we move on. Um, I had, uh, one of my professors at tri-state, he tells this story where he took Carl Hatch to, uh, you know, to a restaurant and Carl Hatch is very, you know, he'll talk to people, talk to waitresses. He witnessed witnesses to everybody. Uh, but there was this one instance where the waitress called him honey. Or babe or something like that. And Carl stopped right there and said, no one calls me honey, but my wife. And so whenever it came time for my professor to order food, he just ordered coffee because he didn't want the waitress to spit in his food. And so it was, uh, it was kind of humorous, but you know, Carl Hatch, he would just witness to everybody. And of course, you know, lead, lead, quote them, lead everybody to the Lord and never see them again. Right. Well, let me give you another story. I found this, uh, as we were doing some research, this came out a couple of days ago with the whole Cracker Barrel incidents. That's been going on all the controversy with that loved your graphics that you put out as well. Uh, uh, uh, uh, Brett about that, but this is a story, uh, in 1970 evangelist, Carl Hatch met up with a guy named Danny Wood Evans. Uh, Danny Wood Evans was an entrepreneur in America and, uh, he founded the great Cracker Barrel, a Southern Baptist, I'm sorry, a Southern themed restaurant. Uh, and you may have wondered if you've ever been in the old Cracker Barrel, the new one that's going to work. They may not have this anymore. Uh, but they played Christian music and they didn't serve alcohol. And you may wonder why did they always have Christian music going on? Why didn't they serve alcohol? The answer was simple. Mr. Evans accepted Jesus as his Lord and savior. Dr. Carl Hatch personally led him to Christ. Dr. Hatch was one of the greatest men. Uh, this was, I'm just reading this Timothy Palmer that had the pleasure of knowing yes, the same Carl Hatch that led Elvis to Christ. I'm glad to have the years to enjoy this restaurant before the world seems to have ruined it as it does all things. Mr. Evans will have not allowed this mess that his namesake is on. Pray for America that it doesn't continue to go down. The foundations are destroyed by the woke madness. As Paul Harvey used to say, now, you know, the rest of the story. Uh, so Carl Hatch, that's crazy. Carl Hatch had some influence in the great Cracker Barrel. Um, but he may be a legend, but Carl Hatch was also known for his aggressive, relentless soul winning. As you mentioned, he'd walk up to complete seniors and jump right into a gospel presentation. Exactly. His methods were pop popularized and training programs across, across the country. IFP churches would host Carl Hatch soul winning seminars, and he was just seen as the gold standard. Yeah. Now the downside, Brett, and I was part of this for years. You were as well. His model encouraged quality, quantity over quality, get the decision, get the prayer, get the number discipleship, throw it out the door. We don't need that mess. Uh, long-term we don't need investment in one another. It's number name. If you get a name, great. If not, we got another number. You got another card. You can throw in to say you got another decision made. Uh, but we're never going to disciple that person. Uh, and we're just going to give them some false assurance of pray this prayer. One, two, three, believe after me, easy believism that comes from it. It's almost like they were giving the Holy spirit, the job of discipling. So I did the hard part. Holy spirit. I led them to the Lord. Now they really got saved. They'll find their way to church and, and you'll take care of them now. Holy spirit. But you know, when we're called to disciple them, um, he represents a form of ministry that emphasized results over relationship. They, you know, it brought in big numbers, but didn't always have strong believers. And I think a lot of it was Carl hatch. Let me tell you from the experience that I've been around and talk to him. I really enjoyed being around Carl hatch. He was funny. He had that, that, that gruff voice that he would do. He thought he'd be hunched over. Um, he was always fun to be around, but it's almost like he had this reputation of being a numbers guy and he had to do whatever he had to do to keep those numbers up. Wherever he went, he had to, you know, go through the spiel with somebody so he could get those numbers. And it, like you said that the numbers became more important than the actual discipleship of the person. Yeah. And, you know, really to be fair, hatch was very sincere in his love for souls. Uh, but when the church turned his stories into templates, it began to lose the sight of the nuance of evangelism just became a formula, uh, not a lifestyle. The, the one that was taught to me, uh, was David wood and his evangelistic training. And, uh, he, he got a lot of his stuff from Carl hatch as well. Uh, but he would have you, uh, bow your head and they would bow their head and you would grab their shoulder. I mean, it was, this is how it was. He would teach us, grab their shoulder. And then, uh, in the moment of you grabbing their shoulder, put your hand out and tell them if they want to accept Jesus to reach out and to grab your hand, this emotionalism that brought in, uh, their sincerity to it, but it was this time of, uh, how can we get this mysticism around and we're sort of manipulating the Holy spirit, uh, versus just teaching and preaching and letting the Holy spirit work in their lives. Right. It's almost like, you, you know, you, you know, when I worked as a telemarketer, they would give me a script and say, you know, do this, this, this. And if they say this, this is how you get them back on track. This is how you get them back. You know, and you just, it's just a script and you know, and not, not every soul winning experience is cookie cutter, you know? So, you know, what, let's ask the question about all these four guys. What, what legacy did they leave? What did all four have in common? Well, they were all bold. They all believed in the authority of scripture and they all left a mark, some helpful and some harmful. Yeah. And each of them, Brett, they, uh, contributed to a culture of spiritual pressure, uh, unhealthy separation and really the unchecked authority, uh, which is what leads to oftentimes the sin that happens in ministry. Even they had well-intentioned, uh, they, they helped shape the movement that sometimes prioritized image over integrity. Uh, we've got to protect the man. We've got to protect the institution at all costs, uh, throw integrity out the window. Exactly. And listen, if, if you grew up in the world of independent fundamental baptism, uh, independent fundamentalism, if you grew up in that world, chances are you've heard these names quoted, if not seeing these preachers with your own eyes, you've heard their names quoted from pulpits, written into textbooks, uh, their images framed on church walls. And, you know, it's okay to look back on gratitude. If you have fond memories or if they did something that was worth gratitude, but there's also room to look back with discernment. Yeah. I want to end today's episode by sort of reading, um, this from JC. He had sent it to me and you. And, uh, he says that Scott McCurdy was the associate pastor under David Bowler at Howland Park Baptist church and David, uh, was the president of TTU. The demise of TTU happened when a Liberty guy showed up called Danny Lovett. He showed up and he ran the place into the ground. Uh, there is something that you might want to make note of a lot of these Baptist Christian schools. If you look, there's a pattern that when the school starts and they start going to the athletics, they start dropping off. It's almost like they don't care about missing, uh, the mission and all they care about is the money. And so they learn their last ditch effort is athletics. Uh, Brian Collins in Dayton, Tennessee has been doing some thriving Christian school work. They're now going down this world, true McConnell, Tennessee temple, and a lot of others, uh, that he can't think of their name as well. He said, one that is doing it right is a school that J Frank Norris actually started. Now I did fact check that. I do not believe that J Frank Norris started Bible Baptist church by was college. It was a spawn of the Bible Baptist fellowship. And he was the one that started the Bible Baptist fellowship. And so the college started out of his movement, but to the best of my knowledge, I can't see that he started that, but he was influential in the school as well. And spoke there often, uh, there in Springfield, Missouri. Now they have changed their name to mission university. Um, and he said, as he quotes by the, by the, the professor there in charge, Mr. Mark Millione, he said that I quote, I will not take the athletic route that most Christian schools have taken. Um, because when you take that route, inevitably you begin to failure in your mission. Um, now I believe a lot of these colleges, they take the route of Liberty. Uh, Liberty's got a D one program. They're doing, they're thriving. They're doing some great things. Uh, but to the best of my knowledge, Liberty didn't start out with athletics. They started out with the Bible. The college began to grow and call athletics began to be an afterthought. A lot of these colleges champion included when they began. I mean, it was the very first year they started athletics. They had to have the athletic program to bring the students in. And now they began to have athletics and the athletics is more important than sometimes the education. Exactly. Well, you know, thanks for listening to the fundamental footprints. If this episode resonated with you or challenge you, share it with a friend and, and just, and remember asking the hard questions is, is not rebellion. It's actually maturity. And until then, just keep seeking truth, walking in grace and holding faith fast to the faith that's greater than any movement. Absolutely. And until next time to God, be the glory. Great things. He has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning. Has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast.tletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletle

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