183. The Bearded Episode - Special Guest JC Groves

Welcome back to the 4 Freedom Podcast. What a great day it is to have served the Lord and what a great time it is in podcast world, in podcast land. And it has been a whirlwind of the last couple of weeks, recording, re-recording, doing other various things. And we are excited about what we've got going on today with the episode that will be coming out here in just a little bit as we get to through some of our banter and some of our beginning talks. But we are excited about what we are going to be talking about with JC here later. And excited about his insight and timing and thoughts on fundamentalism and his side of it under Lee Robertson and the TTU there. Brett, how are things going in your life, in your world, here in the last week of August? How's things going, my friend? Man, things are going good. I'll tell you what I'm excited about. I'm excited about for some fall weather. We're supposed to get some fall weather this week. Get down to the highs in the early 80s and then with lows in the 60s. And then, of course, we're down here in Mississippi. The heat will definitely come back before fall comes here to stay. But, man, things are going good. We're busy. We're working. We're doing things in the ministry. And I'll tell you, our church, we have had visitors every Sunday since vacation Bible school. And we've had to add seats in the choir because people are joining the choir. And we have just been having a great time at Rocky Point Baptist Church. We've got a crusade coming up in our county. And, you know, I'm in charge of that. I don't know how they tricked me into that, but I'm in charge of getting all that, coordinating all the churches. And it's been busy. It's been a lot. But it's also been an experience I wouldn't give anything for. And we've got Alex McFarlane coming in September, the 21st through the 24th, into our county. And, man, we've just got so many irons in the fire trying to get this together. But life and ministry and being a pastor, and I told somebody the other day, I think it was the young adults in my small group. I said, look, if I won the lottery and they paid me $100 million, I would still come to work every day because I love being a pastor. I love being in the ministry. And I love you, too, James. Hey, I love you, too, Big Brett. I love it. Yeah, it's been great. I'm the same way. I love it. This morning I got here and doing some sermon prep, and it's been exciting and lots of good things. We've got a family that's been visiting for the last couple of weeks that's supposed to be joining this Sunday. They gave me some information on joining, just some basic information about their family. So, yeah, things are good. Things are going well in my world, and it has been a great time. School just officially started back for our county, so we've got sports and games starting back. And my kids have started back school, so it's been a breath of fresh air just to be able to get back to some normalized scheduling. The crazy part is now sports get thrown in that mix and the volleyball games and all the crazy things that come with that. But, yeah, things have been good on our area, and, man, we're excited about Israel coming up. We don't want you to forget about that. If you would like to go with us, come with us in January 30th to February 7th. It's going to be a wonderful time. Get your deposit in, get your spot reserved, and we can work with you on what that looks like as far as payments-wise. They're listed there, but what a great trip it's going to be. A great time to be able to experience the Holy Land, to be able to see the Bible in front of you and how it comes to life right there in front of your eyes. And I know it's going to be a great time for me and Brett to be able to lead this trip, and we'd love for you to go with us. If you've got questions about safety, regards of how that's going to look, shoot us a text, an email, call us, message us on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, and we can answer some of those questions for you. But we'd love for you to go with us and experience the Holy Land with me, Brett. And I think Marcus is going to be on that trip as well with some of his guys, and it's going to be a wonderful time. Amen, brother. Yes, do not forget about Israel. The closer it gets, I get more and more excited about it, and I'm trying to talk to people. We've got a limited number of spots, and Israel is something that I'm excited to go back for. It's open. It's safe. It's ready, and I am looking forward to that probably a lot more than I have in the past. It's just getting more real the closer it gets. But I'll tell you what, James. I have really enjoyed this series that we've been in, and not only me. A lot of our audience has enjoyed this series. We've gotten a lot of comments. We've gotten a lot of direct messages. We've gotten a lot of things that have been said to us, a lot of attaboys, and I love the episodes. And I'm really happy that we're in this. We're getting ready to shift gears here and catch another gear. But this series has been well-received from what I've seen. Yeah. Yeah, it actually has been. Yeah, we've been talking about it the first of the year, and now it's going into the second part of the year. It looks like it's going to hopefully finish out by the end of the year, but it may go into the next season as well. So we've been excited about people reaching out and wanting to share their story. And if that's you, if you want to share your story, if you've got a time where you were in one of these ministries or even one of the ministries we talk about in the next couple of weeks, we'd love for you to reach out and say, Hey, I want to share my story. I want to share what my experience was. You see, me and Brett, we weren't actually at all these places. And our thing is, is we want to give some historical evidence on some things that we can research and find out. But if we don't have a firsthand experience, we're not going to talk like we have a firsthand experience. And so that's where you guys come in to come on and share your experience like we have today with JC and some others in the past that have shared. And so we want you to have a part of that and come on and share your story as well. Absolutely. And I'll tell you, we've got today, we've got, you know, I'm not a Calvinist, but I love me some John Calvin Groves. And so I'm looking forward to talking to JC today. All right, let's jump into it. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory justified, released. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Let grace begin. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. All right, well, we're excited about having Mr. J.C. Groves here with us, talking through his time at Tennessee Temple University when the Lee Robertson, the great late Lee Robertson was there. And J.C., welcome to the show. You've told us your story in the past, and so we don't want to rehash a lot of that. We want to jump right into your time at Tennessee Temple. Why did you decide to go to Tennessee Temple? What drew you there over all the other colleges that were out there? Well, fellas, let me first thank you for having me back on. It's good to be here on the For Freedom podcast. Big fan, and listen to every episode. That's a fact. So Tennessee Temple, I love Tennessee Temple. Man, you know, my papaw, when I was growing up, my papaw was good friends with Bob Jones. You know, obviously he wanted me to go there. I didn't want to go to Bob Jones just because I was trying to rebel a little bit. Plus, I grew up around Tennessee Temple. We moved from Indianapolis where my dad was going to an offshoot of Hiles Anderson called Heritage Baptist College in Indianapolis. And we moved here in 87 to Chattanooga so he could finish his schooling at Tennessee Temple. And I just, I grew up going to the basketball games. I grew up, you know, Kevin Woodruff, who was the librarian, remembers me like, you know, six, seven years old, hiding under the table in the library while these college students are studying. And dad's in there trying to write papers. And I'm hiding under a table and he's giving me tootsie rolls. And like, I just remember Tennessee Temple. It was where I wanted to go. I ended up going to Pensacola for a couple of weeks. We all know that story. We won't hash that one out again, but left him, left Pensacola, went back to Tennessee Temple. And honestly, it was, it was a no brainer after that. There was a moment in my life where I was trying to get on the baseball team at Florida State. Had a couple of cousins that played down there. I was like, this is where I want to go. But realized real quickly, a homeschool baseball player is not good enough to get a scholarship at Florida State. And so I ended up at Tennessee Temple in the summer of 2000 after spending some time at Word of Life down in Florida, or excuse me, up in New York. And then Tennessee Temple is where it's at. So there was no other choice. It was DTU all the way. You know, I'll tell you that I remember when I was going to Hal's Anderson, one of the highlights of my experience there was getting to hear Lee Robertson preach. Yeah. And it was really, really cool to hear him preach. I remember one time they got up and they gave him a digital Bible. He just shook his head. He was not having that digital Bible, man. But I remember him getting up. He always had his three points, read your Bible, pray, go to church. Yeah. That was just the kind of guy he was. And what I didn't know at the time is while I'm sitting in there listening to Lee Robertson preach, you're the one that drove in there. Yeah. And I never knew that about me, that you were his personal driver. And so I got to ask you, what was that like driving him around? What are your favorite stories, memories, what sticks out to you? Well, there was a group of us, about five of us that got to drive him around. I actually shouldn't have been one of those, but I left in 2003-ish, no, 2002 and moved to Yakutville, North Carolina for a little bit and then came home and I spent a year. I didn't re-enroll in school and I worked in admissions. And so as a student slash admissions worker, they were like, Groves, you're just traveling around speaking at schools. Will you drive Dr. Robertson around? So I got in that rotation and man, it was almost like picking up Moses or somebody, you know what I mean? Like the door open and I was expecting angels to, but he sat down and here's the thing I loved about Lee Robertson. He never forgot a name. Never. A former student, my dad, he said, now, now who's your son? Who's your dad? I said, oh, John Groves. He's like, oh, John Groves. I remember. And, you know, I mean, just never forgot a name. It was, it was really awesome just to, to be able, you know, he died in 2007. So I was right there towards the end of his life and just, we didn't really have too many conversations, but he just talked and he would remember things as we'd drive around, go eat breakfast at Wally's, which was his favorite place, taking him to preach it. How's Anderson's things like that. It was just a great experience. And I'm so thankful for that opportunity. Yeah. One of the, you know, as we are in this world of independent fundamental Baptist, we've left so long ago, uh, as, as we leave and I'll sit down with guys that were in the can't meet movement. And we're going to be talking about that in a couple of months here as, as we close this season down. But one of the things I hear often is, well, when they're in the pulpit, they're one way, but once you get them behind doors and you get them out by the back behind there, they're ripping all the church members and they're talking about how they're this way, that way. Was that ever a time with Lee Rob? Was he the same in the car as he was in the pulpit as it was in his office? Can you share a little bit? I have a quote that I still say to this day, be the same personally, publicly, and privately. And that was something I learned from Dr. Lee Roberson. He said that all the time. He would tell us that in chapel, he would tell us that. I remember a preacher boys class, uh, my freshman year, we're sitting in here in, in, uh, Lee Roberson center. And there's probably 30, 40 of us. And he said, well, boys be the same personally, publicly, privately, you know, and he had his points, you know, he always alliterated well. And that was how he was. If we were at Wally's eating, if we were picking up dry cleaners, if we were at his haircut appointments, if we were traveling to a school for him to preach, he was the same person in the pulpit as he was in the car. So you got to imagine everything that you're having a conversation. It's like a sermon from Dr. Robertson sitting in the car, but you know, years later, just a few, uh, months ago, uh, his granddaughter and her husband started attending my church here. And she said the same thing about her grandfather. Like he's the same person, no matter where you go. And that is one of the stories that you hear about anybody that had anything to do with Lee Robertson. He was the same person. Well, now I have a little connection to Tennessee temple because my pastor grew up Tennessee temple and my youth pastor, my pastor and youth master growing up, they both attended Tennessee temple and me having went to house Anderson. I'm curious about what did a day in the life of a Tennessee temple student look like? Like, well, how would you describe the spiritual atmosphere? What was it like to be there? Oh man. You know, for the first few years that we were there, Dr. Robertson was alive. And I think a lot of the, the culture started changing, um, after he passed away. This is one thing I want to go back. And one of the things that I want to highlight real quick about that last question. One of the things that I loved about Dr. Robertson, um, picking him up and dropping him off. And this story just, just entered my brain. Um, one of the things that we had in his office at Highland park Baptist church, he had this blue carpet and all of us drivers, we got to go in and see the room, bro. I thought I was walking into the Holy of Holies. I was like, where am I at here? You know what I mean? I was just waiting for angels to sing, but I remember walking into his office at Highland park, blue carpet. He had a big map of Chattanooga on the wall. Um, a lot of little pins where all the missionaries were all over the world, but in the corner of that office, the carpet was just worn out and it caught my eye. There was a, uh, I believe if I can remember correctly, there was a, a full armored soldier over there, you know, put on the full armor of God. And then this, this carpet and I asked him, I said, Dr. Robertson, what, what's up with your carpet over there? And come to find out that is where he prayed every day. Like he literally had a spot that he would kneel down and pray. And that that's one of the highlights that I remember of his life is like, that's years. That's not just like something that just started happening, but that was one of the areas. And he, he always would say, you got to find you a place to pray. You got to kneel in prayer, you know, not, but I remember that. And that, that happened when nobody was in the office. That happened behind the scenes that happened when Highland park built that building hundreds of years ago, whatever, however long ago it was. So that's one of the things that just kind of re he was the same personally, publicly and privately for Tennessee temple. Um, when, when Dr. Robertson was alive, there was a, I mean, it was an independent fundamental Baptist school. Um, you know, we, we, we did the crazy things. I mean, we had the rules like everybody else. I mean, I got in trouble, uh, you know, the sideburns were below the knot of my ear at one time. And I still can't find that verse. Um, you know, I played Jesus in the Chattanooga passion play and I had to wear a badge around that said, Jesus beard badge. And I did not wear that beard badge one day, even though I'd been Jesus for four years in a row, I didn't wear that badge into the cafeteria. And I got demerits two weeks before Easter. I'm like, come on y'all, you know, I'm playing Jesus in the passion play. Obviously Jesus wasn't fat bald and you know, me now he looked different. I looked like whatever Jesus would look like. That's awkward. But, uh, you know, Tennessee temple was, uh, it had its crazy rules, you know, I mean, curfews and all this stuff. I remember one of the craziest things we did, and I've talked about this on the RFP hundreds of times, but, uh, we had track day, take it to the streets and we would tie tracks to balloons and let them go. And one day the wind was blowing and literally almost every track or balloon got stuck in the, uh, power lines right up front. And the power went off and we're like, ah, nobody's getting saved today. But we would seriously, this is one of the craziest things we would write. We had to write the address and our name on the back of tracks. And the person whose track was found the furthest away won this big prize and stuff. So I would always mail mine to my aunt and uncle in Africa or over on the other side. And then we'd send it in. I won like five years in a row, all the way in California, JC grows, man. How did your balloon make it to California? I think they got suspicious when my aunt and uncle in Africa realized that the balloon made it all the way to Uganda, um, has missionaries there. So I don't think I want any more after that, but you know, Tennessee temple looking back on it. I loved it. I had the time of my life. There was crazy, stupid rules. I mean, we went to chapel three times a week. I don't know how many times y'all went at house or five times y'all went every day. Hey baby. Every day. Oh man. We were three to thrive. We were Monday. You were every day too. We were Monday, Wednesday, Friday. That's when we were. And, uh, it was, it was fun. I mean, you know, I, I got to sing a lot, so I was leading not worship. I was singing and it was fun. I enjoyed it. I, you know, there's, there's, there's always crazy stories, but I was also student body vice president for three years in a row. So I wasn't the president. I just got in trouble all the time. That's all I did. That champion. And we had five days, I think now it's like two or three days. They've scaled that back. One is because it's like, dude, we, we're finding like, we're just pulling people out of nowhere just to come and preach. That's a lot of preachers. It is a lot. And you know, back then they were flying in guys and yeah. Crazy. We also had South wide. Oh yeah. Yeah. So mouth wide as we called it. Um, as we think through the college time, before we transition into leaving the IFB and the journey there, um, one of the things that me and John and me and Brent often talk about is our actual training experience. Um, for us at champion, I think that the, the love for people was trained in us to have this natural love and serving attitude. Uh, but the education was lacking. Um, so in your time, while you were at Tennessee temple, were there strengths that you can look back and then maybe where did they fall short in the training side of it? As far as an educational Institute. Sure. You know, I went in as a music major. That was my thoughts. I traveled singing Southern gospel before Tennessee temple. And so I was like, I'm going to go into music major. Well, quickly in the first semester, I realized I can't sing opera, nor do I play the piano and music majors there. It was like six hours of voice practice, four hours of piano practice a week. I was like, forget this. So I switched my major to political science. I'm still trying to play baseball. I went on as a scholarship to play baseball there. And so I didn't really do the school thing the first couple of years. And then sophomore year, I come back from North Carolina, he called me to preach. And so I switched my major, went into pastoral studies. And I had a professor by the name of Dr. Jerry Hall. He's down in Dothan, Alabama now. And what I'm telling you, one of the most profound lessons that I've ever gotten, and I've talked about this multiple times, he, he, he brought all of us in. And here we are ready to preach. You know, you remember what it's like when you're called, you're ready to grab hell by the tail and stick it in your pocket. I can't remember the saying. Anyhow, uh, we, uh, we go out to the LRC full suits, full ties, big Bibles, ready to go. He said, come on, fellas, we're going to go somewhere. And we walked down to the dumpster behind the cafeteria or shovels and rakes and brooms. He said, we're going to clean this today. We're in our best Sunday best. Like we're in our best suits. We got our Bibles and we're sweeping up nasty food, smelly food. We get back. We're all hot and sweaty. He said, what'd y'all learn? We're like, uh, it's hot. He's like pastoring pastoring. You think it's going to be one way, but you're going to find out there's a lot of other things. Preaching is this much of the big thing. And that was one of the most profound lessons that, you know, honestly, I got from that class because the rest of it was just preacher boys preaching and it was horrible. Um, but you know, I, I think on the, the, for my major pastoral major, um, you know, a lot of it was surface level. Um, I remember, you know, homiletics and hermeneutics, uh, was taught by the same person. Uh, we get into hermeneutics and you know, he's deducting points cause you have a tie on that's a little too long, but he's got a Looney Tunes tie. That's touching his kneecaps. We're like, what are we doing here? You know, um, there was not a lot of depth when it came to knowledge and come to find out it was a lot of guys that had no pastoral experience that were teaching some of these classes. So they're teaching you how to pastor, but they had no pastoral experience. It was just somebody that was filling a role there. Um, in all honesty, Temple was, was, it was accredited. It was good. Um, I just think at some point it, it had to go beyond surface level and that was what Temple was. It was really surface level. And a lot of us, our training happened after we left and really started diving deep into it. Yeah, I can agree with that. My time at champions, the same way. Um, you know, we didn't realize the surface level teaching at the time. Um, but like I said, the, the, the ability to serve and the teaching of how to serve and how to be a pastor was definitely there. And, you know, flip side, I thought these guys that come out of Southeastern and Southern and they're like, I just want to study all day. But when they, they're put in the room with a hurting person, yeah, no clue. I don't know what to do right now. They're there. They didn't teach me this in the books and there's no book to tell me. And so what I rather one or the other, it's hard to say. Um, because yeah, I love the education side, but being able to be able to be able to be able is, is so vital in the ministry and being able to serve is massive. So it's a lot of, go ahead, go ahead. I think there's a, there's a lot of head knowledge, but no common sense. And it was, you know, I don't know how much head knowledge there was. Like there was a lot of Bible being taught, but no application, you know, no, you know, I left there and started while I was still a student, student pastoring. And I was like, man, they're, they're not teaching me anything with how to pastor. I took not one class that helped me counsel somebody, not one class that helped me really put rubber to road and run. You know, it was all just more this surface level. It was a mile wide and an inch deep kind of thing. It was like, Hey, it looked good. And really what I realized, a lot of the classes were just training to look like the dudes that were coming and preaching at chapel, how to grow a big school, how to grow a big church, how to, you know, and it was always this bigger is better. So it was like how to do this and this, well, you gotta, you gotta look this part. You know what I mean? Herman Newt's class wasn't really about how to preach. It was what we had on, you know, and it was, it was just weird thinking about it. There was a guy, one of our professors, he was actually, um, Jack houses. Grandson-in-law, I believe it was John Horton's his name in Malvern, Arkansas. And so it was 30 minutes away from the college and he was one of our professors. He would walk in Monday morning and he'd go, all right, guys, it was pastoral counseling or whatever. And he'd say, this happened yesterday at my church. This is what was going on. Uh, how do you respond to this situation? And it's like, what? Like, yeah, he's like, yeah, this is how, how do you think you should respond? We sort of walked through it, but it was just that practical. This is how we're going to do things. And I mean, I love John. He's one of the great, great, one of my favorite professors that we have at all time. Brett, go ahead. I'll tell you that at, you know, Howes Anderson, you know, Jack Howes famously didn't believe in hermeneutics. So we didn't have a hermeneutics class and we didn't know how to interpret the Bible. And we only had homiletics, but he didn't like that. So he called it preaching class and I had it with Jack Scott. And the only thing I got from it was how to strut, how to write an outline on a paper, but I was never taught how to study for a message. I came out of Tri-State and Howes Anderson, not knowing anything about how to preach. And so I can definitely sympathize with, uh, with what you're saying. Yeah. I will say the one story though, before we move on, I do remember that there was one time where Lee Robertson had his briefcase stolen with all his sermons in it. Do you remember this? I vaguely do remember that. It was a big thing at Howes Anderson and he got his briefcase stolen and whatnot. You being his driver, I didn't know if you knew anything about that. I think that was before my time. So transitioning away from that, we want to go into now your, your ministry journey. We want to talk about you leaving the IFV and your departure from it. And so our question to you is, was this kind of a, a slow unraveling? Was there a defining moment or had it been building up over time? And there was a straw that, that broke the camel's back. What did that look like for you? Yeah, I wished I could say there was a straw that broke the camel's back. I have one story that we've, we've actually talked about on the podcast and I called the guy out and I'm still waiting on my $2,500 in crisp $100 bills. By the way, found the tape. Um, but I think that would be the, and I'll tell you here in a second, but really looking back, I think 16, 17 years old being in youth groups and listening to my youth pastor preach messages that made no sense, but always ended up at hell. And, you know, we wanted to go play this new volleyball court outside that we raised money for and build. And he would always say, literally, we're not playing volleyball until people are broken on this altar. And at 16, 17 years old, we're back there playing paper, rock, scissors to see who's going to go down and cry, fake cry, kind of yawn to try to get tears up. And I remember 16 years old, I drove to youth groups. It was my very first time driving to youth groups. And I'm at this altar cause I wanted to go play volleyball and eat little Caesars pizza. And I'm literally yawning, trying to work up tears in my eyes just so it looked like I did business. And I'm sitting there and I asked myself, what am I actually doing? Like what, what is the point of being here right now? I know I'm waiting until the certain point. Everybody that goes to the altar knows that at a certain point you all stand up, even though we don't talk to each other. It's just magic. Everybody stands up at the same time, hugs and goes back. And I remember asking myself, what, what is actually happening? What is the point of this? And it was then that the questions started happening. And there's really a guy named Ronnie Brown, good friend of mine. He, he, he has gone back on, um, y'all know Ronnie. He went to Israel with us. He has gone back to temple Baptist and has pulled all of our sermons, uh, the services from like the early nineties to mid two thousands. And there's a point as I'm watching some of these where I can see the change starting happening in me. I'm up in the choir loft and I'm starting to just not question. I wasn't rebellious. I wasn't like, you know, looking at, at all of this from a, uh, RFP angle, if you will, but I could tell something was different. And then when I got to Tennessee temple, just seeing the crazy rules and a lot of those things started changing. And I really don't think it was until 2003, 2004, when I became a youth pastor for the first time at an independent fundamental Baptist church working in it, that I really saw the behind the scenes and how legalism really functioned in that church. Of course, the pastor I worked for two months after I got there was fired for embezzlement. And I saw the behind the scenes of an IFP church for the first time. And so my journey was not this one defining moment. However, there was a one defining moment with brother Phil kid that, that really helped just kind of seal the deal. And I knew then, okay, we're done. Like things are changing from here on out. But my journey was a slow progress out, just starting to pay attention, starting to realize things are off. That's not in the Bible. That that's that dude's idea that he's trying to make a verse fit. And it was just this slow progress out. I would say probably around 2006, I walked away completely. Um, I met my wife and I was working at that independent fundamental Baptist church. We started dating and I told her, I said, I'm, I'm done. I'm not raising a family in this kind of environment. And we were even talking about getting married then. And so we left and I joined a, a church that was an SBC church plant. Um, and oh, you want to talk about a whole different world. Like, I mean, I went from like two different worlds here as a youth pastor, youth pastoring from an independent fundamental Baptist church to a SBC church plant church. It was like two different worlds, but I kind of walked away. And then for the next, however many years it was, it was just this like, okay, I'm, I'm glad I left that. And then we started the podcast. It was like, I jumped right back in the middle of all of that garbage, you know, and, and bringing back a lot of that stuff. So Brett, to answer your question, there wasn't one defining moment. And I think there was a defining like evening that really helped me really like, okay, I'm done. I'm walking away from this. And for those that don't know and have not heard, that was brother Phil kid preaching at faith Baptist Bible camp in Ressaca, Georgia. And I had taken a youth, a youth leader that had asked a girl who I'd been trying to get into youth group. She was 15, 16 years old, pregnant, um, very big pregnant. I had tried to get her to youth groups. She finally came, had a youth leader that told her to leave. She was a bad influence on the other teenagers. I was like, what are you doing? That girl never came back to youth group. She never came back to church. So I took this youth leader, me and him wore tank top shorts and flip flops and went to faith Baptist Bible camp in Ressaca, Georgia. And we walked in and brother Phil kid got up and he literally was preaching on hell. So high. He said these words, I preached a whore right out of church. She was in the house of God in a pair of pants. And I preached that whore right out of church. And I looked at the guy that I brought and I said, do you know why I brought you here? He's like, yeah, I do. I said, do you feel like you made that 15 year old girl feel at youth groups the other night? He said, yes. I said, don't ever treat anybody like that. We stood up to leave. And that's where brother kid called us a good, uh, adjective there. And I wheeled around and said, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. And we took off out of there. And, uh, I got to confront him a couple of years later, but I would say that was like my defining moment of walking away, but it was a long progress from about 16, just starting to see behind it. But bro, I was in a thick of it. 16, 17, 18 years old. I'm singing at camp meetings. I'm doing all the temple stuff. And it was all really just kind of fake. If you think about it, I also didn't get saved until I was 22 years old. So I was fake as a $3 bill all the way through it, that part right there out and send it to Cody's orange. Cause apparently you're not saved and trying to figure that one out. Um, all the fruit inspector. That's right. The good fruit inspector. Um, as we leave the IFB and as we left, this is a question that I like to ask. And I like to retrospectively think about as well, because oftentimes guys will say, oh, they're just left their heritage. They left their, their, their, whatever with, when we think of leaving, it's not that we have burned it down and we're, we're, you're whatever. There are some things that we can appreciate. And I know you guys on the RFP did a whole episode on things that we love and things that we still cherish. I want to ask one question in two different ways. I want to ask it that what's the one thing that you appreciate the most about your IFB background? And what's the one thing that you wish you could unlearn that you learned? Hmm. That's a good question. I think the one thing that I, I, I appreciate the most is just the attention to scripture memorization. I mean, I remember, I memorized so much scripture growing up in Awana, Cubby, Sparks, Pals, Chums, Pioneers. That's the old school Awana. Like, I mean, getting those things, the Timothy awards, the excellence awards, all those, um, but memorizing scripture. And now in my brain, it's all King James. So if I go to quote it, man, it's coming out and spat and spit and they and thou, like I'm, I'm memorizing it there, but that is the most important thing. My kids now, I'm like, guys, if y'all only had the scripture memorization that we had, I'm trying to get them to memorize verses and how that was driven into our brains. And I'm thankful for that because you know, that that's what gives you hope in the dark. You get it in the light. You know, you don't have to see hope to have hope. We got it memorized, you know? And, and that, that, that's probably the biggest thing that I'm thankful for. Uh, the thing that has stuck with me, um, is, is, and this is going to be so broad. You're going to be like vomit, but is this like bent towards legalism? And you know, the, honestly, that's why we call the podcast, the recovering fundamentalist podcast, because it's innately in us. My, my go-to at times is legalism to, to question validity of somebody's story, uh, to, to doubt when I hear something that's positive to, to look at somebody in the way that they're doing that. And I'm like, hold up, that's not how the Bible. So, and then I'm like, wait a second, that's legalism, you know? And I think my, and I know that's so broad and trashy to give you an answer like that, but it's this, and that's why we called it the recovering fundamentalist podcast, because we're always going to have this bent towards legalism. And when I see a church service, when I hear something, my first go-to is, is legalism because it's in me. It's the thing that was driven in us. And then I have to stop collaborating and listen. And I'm like, okay, hold up. Why, why did I just go there? Let's pause. Is this Bible? And then I look at it in a different lens. Thankfully today, it's a lot less than what it was 20 years ago. But I think if there's one thing that has held on, that would be, that would be it. I know that for me personally, when I walked away, there were some doctrinal things that were big issues that I had been taught that just weren't right. There were doctrines that like the Baptist bride and other things like that were just ridiculous. There were, there were other things like some of my eschatology that I dropped, re-examined. And so I want to ask you, were there specific doctrinal shifts that help you move away from that world? Yeah, I'm not that deep. I mean, to be honest with you, I don't think there was, I, I, I never got into arguments. I wasn't, you know, post-Prid meeting off. Like, I'm like, Jesus wins, you know, and that's always been my answer. And it got me in a lot of trouble because I mean, we're, we're millennial return of Jesus. Amen. And I'm like, Hey, Jesus wins. I don't know. Um, you know, and so I never really got into those kind of arguments, numerology, um, you know, eschatology, all of those things. It was not something that I really sat around and had those conversations with. Um, so I don't think there were specific doctrinal shifts. I, the thing that I've harped on the most, if there, I don't even know if it's a doctrinal position, but would be the King James version only ism. Uh, I mean, it's idolatry, you know, and I, I hit on that one. Um, but as far as doctrinal stuff, there's, I've always been a loose cannon. You know, I've, I've always just like, I'm, I'm going to call stuff out. I'm like, that's kind of dumb. If you think about it, that's why I stayed in trouble a lot of times too. That's right. So you were connected to Dr. Robertson and, uh, as you left and, and being with him for many years driving and spending time with him, uh, part of your leaving was sort of leaving that heritage as well from what you had. Yeah. And what was the hardest part about leaving? You know, honestly, it didn't. Um, it was actually at his funeral where, uh, because of my role getting to drive him around, uh, I got to sit up with the IFB elite, if you will. And I remember sitting on that row, uh, second row, third row on the left-hand side at Highland Park Baptist church, right behind some very influential, uh, independent fundamental Baptist pastors that were taking shifts being on the stage. Um, you know, this guy would turn around and be like, Hey, you're stupider for sitting behind me. And I remember him sitting there. And at the end of this funeral, he said, this is the death of fundamentalism. And I remember hearing that. And I was like, what are we talking about here? This is a great man, but it's not the death of fundamentalism. It may be the death of his brand of fundamentalism, but it's not the death of fundamentalism. And honestly, I'm thankful for that opportunity to drive him those last three or four years of his life, because it was, it was that opportunity to see he's really not this like cult leader. He was a good man, but it was, it was for me just an opportunity to say, how do we bring the freshness, the life, the realness, the love, and the passion for Jesus that he brought to this and their brand, their style of fundamentalism that is dying? How do we bring life to that? And that's where, you know, I talked about it on our last episode where I prayed, God, I want to do something. And, you know, who would have thought the podcast would be born? And that would be kind of the tool that God used for a season for us to do there. But I don't think my relationship with him really helped or hurt me leaving. If you will. Well, I'll tell you what, we want to transition. Now we want to talk about hope church because brother hope church is killing it in North Georgia. And just so excited. I remember looking on your, on your social media and seeing that barn when y'all started out in that barn and then seeing where you are right now. But we want to give you an opportunity to tell us about hope church. What's the, what's the heart? What's the mission behind it? Yeah. Hope church is a family following the way of Jesus. We live by faith. We're known by love and we strive to be a voice of hope in the community around us. And that's more than just some vinyl letters we put up on the wall. It's more than just who we are as a gathering. Hope church started here in Ringgold, Georgia, coming up on three years. It's crazy. It's already been almost three years ago. Now, I honestly didn't want to do it. I was college pastor down in Savannah, Georgia area, Statesboro, and moving home was what we wanted to do. I believe God's will is practical, not mystical. And so I was like, Hey, you know, I hate South Georgia. I'm just going to be honest. It's too hot and there's way too many gnats. And there's a big difference in South Georgia and North Georgia people. We're just North Georgia people. That's, that's just how it is. We're red decks. And, you know, moving home was the right thing to do. My calendar was really full. I had a lot of speaking engagements. And so we said, let's go home and be around family. And we'll just find us a church and I'll travel in the podcast and we'll do that. Well, we get back here and I spent probably a good three months, you know, hitting a church and then going to a coffee shop. And I'm realizing the coffee shops around here are packed on Sundays and just having these conversations with people. Why aren't you in church? Like, you know, why are you here? Not there. And they're like, this is our community. And I was like, okay, intentional community. And then the conversations led to, are you going to start a church? And I was like, no, that's, that's literally the last thing I want to do was to start a church. I've never really seen myself as a lead pastor. I've always, you know, for the first 20 plus years, student pastor, college pastor, campus pastor, but we prayed about it and said, okay, let's just put it out there. So we threw it out on social media. Hey, everybody, we're going to start a church. We're going to gather for the first time Halloween 2022. If you're unchurched, if you're looking for a church, come and check us out. We had 74 people show up the first night at a barn on Halloween. Our kids were digging in some dirt. I don't really know where they were at. And I was like, this is crazy. We, we sang some songs and, uh, I, I preached a message and I was like, y'all want to do this next week? And they said, yes. And so the next Sunday we came back at 7 PM and we had 124 adults show up and about 15 kids. And our kids literally this time there was a rodeo arena next to us. They were chasing a baby calf around that rodeo arena. The entire time I was like, that's the best childcare we've ever had in our life right there. Talk about kids ministry. Um, we, we left that Sunday and I was like, okay, we can't meet in the barn anymore. So I drove through the Chickamauga battlefield, which is a civil war historic place, came out on the other side and there was 120 year old building that I noticed only had a few cars. And I saw a guy walking at the door. I didn't know who this guy was. I've just learned not to say somebody's no for him. So I pulled up and said, Hey guys, how y'all doing? They said, good. I said, listen, this is a crazy, crazy thing. I've got two questions for you. One will be easy. The other one, I hope it doesn't make you mad. He said, what's up? I said, would, would y'all be willing to rent your building to a new church plant that is just starting out? We've got, we're meeting in a barn, but we've outgrown it. He's like, yeah, dude, we don't do anything on Sunday nights. So great. He's like, what's your second question? I said, well, I can't help but notice. And I mean, no offense, but y'all, you know, there's only a handful of people here. Would y'all just want to merge in with us? And we just kind of take over on Sunday mornings and y'all just become part of what we're doing and we'll run from there. And he said, interesting. We just had a meeting about selling this building. They were running about eight to 15 people. And a long story short, uh, met with them on black Friday of 2022 day after Thanksgiving. They said, what's your vision? I was like, man, listen, I don't know. We're doing this church plant completely backwards. Don't tell anybody, but the thing is, I just want to see people in Catoosa County prosper. That that's my hope. I feel like God has taken us to Salt Lake city. He brought us back to Catoosa County. We went to Statesboro, Georgia. He's brought us back to Catoosa County. And I just feel like Nehemiah in a way he's serving as the King's cup bearer in Sushan, but his heart was in Jerusalem because the gates were torn down. The walls were destroyed. And this is Catoosa County is, is here. And, uh, my heart has always been here. So long story short, we picked up as a five week old church, we picked up a $4,500 a month rent plus play in electric and water. Never missed a payment. Never asked for a, uh, like a, a buffer on that. That's just God's faithfulness and kindness and outgrew that building quickly. We were in it about a year pushing three services. And then the current building that we're in now, uh, we haven't even been in this building a year. It's been awesome. We've already kind of outgrown it. And now the contractors that want to up our lease. And so we're, we're waving the white flag of surrender. We, we could be out of this building by December. And we're like, all right, God, what's next? I need to give old lock a call and see how they did the tent thing. Cause that may be where we're at. Sawdust on the floor. Amen. But it's going great. I mean, God is it. I never thought I'd pastor a church, much less plant a church. It's been difficult. It's been amazing. Um, the pay sucks, but it's great because, you know, we're, we're learning as we go. Um, we just baptized last Sunday. We baptized our 81st person, um, in two and a half years as a church. That's awesome. Um, we don't send those numbers out or post them or anything. I was like, maybe I could get my name in a magazine or a plaque on the wall or something, but you know, we're, we're unaffiliated. We're non-denominational. We're no network or any of that stuff. And so it's, I'm kind of independent fundamental Baptist again, if you think about it, man, it's, it's, it's awesome. I'm absolutely loving it. Yeah. So what's been your approach? That's been maybe different than what was funneled into you. I know you've got Spider-Man there behind you for those that aren't watching. Are you the friendly neighborhood JC grows at Hope church trying to do things, but what's been the difference? Like we were told one way, this is how you reach people preach the King games three to thrive. Now you're doing things that are completely different. What's been your approach to that? And how have you modeled that? In all honesty, taking it back from my car rides with Lee Robertson. And if you think about it, the thing I say all the time is be the same personally, publicly, privately. I've said that so many times here. We're just real. We wanted to do an intentional push for community. One of the things that we say is intentional community. We went from our first building. We had 600 feet of lobby space. That's like eight people in your pack. And so community never happened. It was also an old movie theater. There was literally a slant that was so steep. We had a wheelchair. The brakes gave way in her electric wheelchair one Easter and she starts rolling. I was like, hold up. Somebody put the brakes on her. That it gives new meaning to Holy roller. So there was just no way for community to happen. We move into this building. We now have 6,000 square feet of community space. And I'm not joking. We have to tell people to leave on Sunday because they're here an hour, hour and a half, two hours after service, hanging out, sitting in there. And so we wanted to create this lobby with the idea of community. We've got soft seating. We've got tables. We've got coffee areas. And that has been incredible. It's intentional community. We're actually, crazy enough, we're going back to a Wednesday night Bible study. We start Sunday school, y'all. We're full circle. We're not doing that, by the way. But it's just been this whole idea of just creating a space that people can come. And we don't use slogans. We don't use churchy words like no perfect people allowed or come as you are. We just, we open the door. We welcome them. And it's genuine. And people are buying into that. And it's not like we're trying to sell them. There's no bait and switch. We preach Jesus. And it's crazy because I've been part of churches that have the purple lights and the hazer and all that stuff. Nothing against it. We just, we don't have the money, money to do it. So we turn on the lights and we go, you know, and it's just been awesome. And we're finding folks are digging into the word. There's a hunger to read the Bible. This is something that's really cool. I realize every time I get up, I say, hey, take your Bibles and open up too. And I'll tell my passage of scripture. And I realized that a lot of people didn't have a Bible. And that's 2025. You know, a lot of people are on their phones or their iPads, but there's just something, amen, about turning pages and hearing the pages turn. So we went out and bought 150 of these new living translation, which is the version I love, by the way, of these filament Bible editions, which it's a basic Bible. But if you hold your phone over it, it will open up a plethora of apps and things like that. And so we bought 150 of these and sold 150 Bibles in eight minutes. And now on Sundays, it's crazy. I'll get up and say, hey, take your Bibles. And I literally see half of our congregation like turning in their pages. It's been great. We're a young church. A lot of people learning about Jesus for the first time. We also have a lot of pastors. I have probably six pastors right now that are either out of ministry or transitioning or burnout. And so you've got this like weird dynamic. We're preaching to, you know, pontificate on isoteric ethereus to the point these guys can get it. But also I had a guy walk up to me that's been saved a year. And he's like, dude, I read about these three boys that got thrown into a fire, man. I'm like, this is such a weird world we're living in, you know, but it's awesome. I'm loving every second of it. God's blessing. We're just, we don't know what our next steps are. And so we're just praying and believing and trusting. And hey, listen, it's God's church. He'll do it. He's doing a great job with it. All three of ours. We just got to steward it well. And so that's what we're trying to do. Amen. So JC, you've entered into this new season of your ministry. ministry and our question is, we're curious, what's been like the most refreshing part? Like, man, it's like a breath of fresh air in this new season of ministry. But then what's the other thing on the other end of the spectrum that's like been like the most challenging, like so challenging it kind of surprised you? Yeah, I think me personally, not getting into the weeds of knowing how to do ministry and not being able to buy ministry because I've worked at some big churches that have big budgets. I mean, I was a campus pastor of a multi-campus church that had major dollars. And so ministry was bought and it wasn't necessarily taught. It was just bought. If we wanted to do it, we bought it. We did it. Then we come to a church plan and we ain't got no money, y'all. And so it's kind of like, okay, we've got to cast vision. I have a full staff, all volunteer. You want to talk about having to not just cast vision, but keep vision fresh, keep them encouraged to keep pressing on. I mean, a full volunteer staff, that's people doing a job that a paid $40,000 to $50,000 person would do. And they're doing it with excellence. There's something about the buy-in that comes with that. That's been incredible there. You know, keeping a church, we've had great growth and that's good. We're excited about that. But with that comes this expectation that you're established. And then when you get behind the scenes, you realize, my goodness, we are a two and a half, three-year-old church. We don't have the opportunities to do missions yet. We're still trying to keep the lights on. I just started getting paid in July. So that's two years of no payment. That's rough. When you've got six kids and trying to work six other jobs of Uber and Uber Eats and all this stuff. So there's the sexy side of it. But then you see the other side and you're like, man, it's difficult. But when I look at the difficult things, a lot of that is more personal. A lot of that is breaking down this idea of how to do church and just what does it mean to jump in with community base? And so that's kind of been the thing. Plus, the other side is we're young. There's a lot of new Christians. There's a lot of people, because of my podcast, that are coming here broken, beaten, crushed, bruised, hating church in all regards. Legalism has played a role in their life. So there's this weird balance of trying to help people understand the Bible for the first time, but also helping people fall back in love with Jesus and the God of the Bible, not three initials on the front of the Bible. And so it's like this interesting dynamic that we've got going on here. And it's a tension to manage, but it's a great tension. And I wouldn't want to manage any other tension, if that makes sense. Love it. Well, let's go through our last section here. If you've stuck with us this long, hopefully you have, we'll do a little rapid fire, a couple of questions for you. You've made one statement continually this entire episode of be the same personally, publicly, and privately that stuck with you. So we can't use that one to answer this if you wrote that. But what's a phrase or something that you have said or heard that you continually find yourself using today, even if it's ironically that you continue to say it? Oh my goodness. I bite my tongue every time I say it. Lord, just lead, guide, and direct us. Amen. Oh, why did I say that? Last Sunday, I prayed for a hedge of protection around us. I was like, oh, wait a second. What is that? And I had one of our, one of our guys that did not grow up independent fundamental Baptist. He was like, what is a hedge of protection? And I was like, don't worry about it. It's just what we say here. But lead, guide, and direct, that's the same thing. I heard, I heard a comedian, John Rupp. He said, I'm from Hickory. He said the birthplace of NASCAR. He said, NASCAR, National Association of Stock Car Automobile Racing. Stock car, automobile. It's the same thing. It's like playing in the NFFFL, football, football, football league. Lead, guide, direct. It's the same thing. But that's one of my sayings. Love it. So what's a book, podcast, or teacher that helped reshape your thinking after leaving? Oh, man. One of my favorite books ever, of course, is The Greatest Awakening. That's a great book that I would highly recommend you. And I cannot remember the author's name. Do y'all remember it? Chuck Swindoll. Chuck Swindoll. Yeah. Great book. I've read that book multiple times. Listened to it on audio. Just referenced it in a sermon. A few weeks ago. Great book there. There is a book by Lance Witt called Replenish that has radically helped me in many, many days of my life. Post IFB, as a pastor. It's just refreshing the soul. Leading from the overflow. Those two books have been some of the best help that I've had outside of scripture. Sure. I think. Did you ask people or just books and podcasts? Book, podcast, teacher. Teacher. I got a man by the name of Billy Wood. He pastors in near Atlanta, Georgia. One Baptist church. Billy has been a mentor of mine for a very long time. He just tells it like it is. Billy is still independent fundamental Baptist. Great dude. But he loves Jesus. And he tells it straight. And while I'm walking through this whole idea of the podcast six, seven years ago, walking away from legalism. You know, he's been the one that has really helped me not just remember the good, the positive, but also has challenged me and asked me hard questions. I have tried to surround myself with not yes men, but with guys that will definitely give me pushback. Billy Wood, definitely one of the guys that has really helped me a lot. So those two books and Billy. Love it. All right. Last question. And you can close with whatever you want to say here as well. You can go back to, Brett, you got one more thing? Yeah, I got one more thing. All right. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. So real quick, I'm going to do either or. All right. So you tell me which one that you like better than the other. All right. KJV or new KJV? King James, baby. All right. King James or ESV? King James. All right. KJV or NIV? King James. All right. KJV or NLT? Baby NLT all the way. NLT or CSB? NLT. NLT or new American? NLT. All right. NLT or the message? Hmm. I'm just kidding. NLT. All right. That's all I got. Go ahead. I switched to the new living translation. So one of the first things that I did, this is crazy. But in 2001, I left word of life, came to Tennessee temple. And I started reading. I was given a new living translation when I was at word of life. Even though they were King James down there. And y'all, I'm telling you, the Bible started coming to life in ways that I had never. Passages I had read, scriptures I had read. And the new living translation was just popping out of the page at me. And to the point where I preached in chapel my sophomore year of college, and I read from the new living translation. But I copied it out and taped it in my King James Version Bible. If you look through, and I've got the Bible on my shelf behind me, my King James Version Bible, I would take scripture and open it up. And there's pages of the new living translation taped inside of my King James Version Bible. And nobody paid attention. Nobody recognized the difference, but they understood it. And I was like, I've used the new living translation. That's what I preach from, what I study from, what I read new living translations, my version, all the way. My wife was the same way when I got her an ESV for the first time. She said she wanted a Bible that our pastor was preaching out so she could follow along really easily and really well. And she said, I started reading it, and I just started bawling. I could understand it. And for the first time, I knew what the Bible was saying. And it was one of those really cool moments as well. Brett took you to an eye doctor just now. This one or that one? This one or that one? Yeah, he did. That's what I felt like when I go to the doctor every time. All right, last question. Threw the message in there. My goodness. Yeah, he did. If you could go back to Young JC, 1990s, 2000. You're at TTU. You're sitting there. You're absorbing all that's been fed into you. What would you tell? What's that one advice that you would say to Young JC at that time? If I could go back and tell Young JC, because I learned this later on in life, but I wish I would have learned it earlier, is live from acceptance, not for acceptance. My whole life spent from 16 to about 22 was living for the acceptance of others, the approval of others, the applause. Around 22, 23, I really, there was a shift in my life. I was walking away from legalism completely, finally. That was after that whole thing that we just talked about with the kid. And it was learning to live from who God had created me to be and not the applause, the approval, the fraternity. I started, I wasn't part of the preacher boys group in our church anymore. I wasn't wearing the suits and ties. I wasn't carrying the King James Bible. I started this pull away from this world, if you will, that I had been in my whole life. And learning to live from acceptance, not for acceptance, it radically changed my life. And if 16-year-old JC could have gotten a hold of what I got a hold of when I was about 23, I just wonder where I'd be today. There would be a lot of different decisions that would have been made because I made a lot of those decisions based off of acceptance from the point of moving to North Carolina, hello, to coming back, to first job, to school. And so live from acceptance, not for acceptance. Amen. And, you know, I want to say as we all kind of say our last words here, about to sign off here in just a minute, I'd like to say, JC, from a listener of the Recovering Fundamentals podcast, I know the podcast just came to a close. And I would just like to say a big thank you. You didn't have to come back into this world, but you did. And in doing so, you helped a lot of people, including myself. I was transitioning out of the IFB at the time when I ran across your, you know, your $2,500 Fresh Clean Vills episode. And it really, I got a hold of it and it really helped me. We talked about the island that we're on and that's what I felt like. I felt like I was pastoring out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. And it was a community. It was a family that had experiences that I had went through and knew the language that I was speaking and kind of helped guide me into where I'm at today. And I'm just very thankful for the podcast, you and Brian and Nathan and just the whole experience, the meetups, everything. It made a big difference and impact on my life. And I speak for all your listeners when I say this. Just thank you all for investing in us. Yeah. Absolutely. And then, James, do you have something to say? Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate the support you've given us, allowing us to be part of the network when it was a thing. And the fun ups and downs and crazy drama that that brought. It was a great time. And looking forward to what we've got going on. And this next stage you got coming up, I'm extremely looking forward to it. Yeah. Follow the way. I was looking forward to hearing that and been a big supporter of that as well. However, we can help. It's great. I'm thankful for the For Freedom podcast, you know, even all the way back with John. And, you know, now that you got him off here and finally got a good host with Brett. You know, I'm just kidding. I'm thankful. I mean, John couldn't grow a beard. That's it. Bless his heart. No, y'all have done a great job. And, you know, I love, as the old IFB says, you've picked up the mantle and are running well with it, you know. And, hey, I will gladly hand the heat and all that trash that people love to give over to y'all. But, man, RFP was a great run. 200 plus episodes. We had some extras in there. You know, those podcast episodes will be out there for the rest of time. We're thankful for that. Love, you know, that Brian, Nathan, and I got to be a voice that helped a lot of people find encouragement and hope. And their voice, you know, for freedom. You know, all the other podcasts that were part of that network for a while we ran in tandem. And everything in life, there's a season. And I'm excited to see the new season as your podcast continues to take off as the Following the Way podcast launches in January of 2026. And, man, thanks for having me on today, guys. It's always an honor to be on the For Freedom podcast. Go buy some cigars. Amen. That's right. Well, until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Great things. I found my new name. I found that good grace. I found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance. I found my best friend. I found my forgiveness. I found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom podcast. For Freedomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkom

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