173. Fundamental Footprints - The Joseph Oakes Interview - Testimony from BJU

I found my freedom in you I found a joy I can't lose And thank God it's true You wrapped your arms around me And heaven broke through From the moment you found me I found my freedom in you Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Safer and Brad Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. So glad you're with us today. We're so thankful to be with you. It is our goal to just come to you and have conversations and open dialogue about the freedom that we have in Christ. And we are so thankful to be here. You know, it's being on this podcast. It means a lot to me. And we've had some of you reach out to us over the past couple of weeks concerning the subject that we're talking about, the Footprints Fundamentalism series. And we're so thankful that you're enjoying it, that you're getting some from it. Our goal isn't just to bash. We want to get somebody's experience, good and bad. But we are thankful that you're here with us. James, tell us how things are going in your neck of the woods. Let's go. Man, things are great. We are finishing up school. My kids finished on Tuesday. And we're going, we went yesterday to get my son's passport. He's going to be going down to Nicaragua with us when we go down in September, October, whenever that is. And looking forward to that, looking forward to the excitement of what that comes with it. And man, we're gearing up for summertime. We've got, I'm on the board of directors for the North Carolina State Convention. And so we just had our board of directors meeting at Oak Island in eastern North Carolina on the coast. And had a great time there with about 80 men and women that were just enjoying each other's fellowship. Great time of talking. I did create a little bit of a firestorm. I made a motion as a board of directors to change something out of the ordinary. You've been to conventions with me. I don't talk in rooms like that. I just let people deal with it. But that was one thing that I just didn't like in the policy. And I mean, it was like a 45 minute conversation, Brett. It was crazy. And so I just was like, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean for this to happen. Like, no, no, it's good for the input and talk. And so we had a good time with that. And I'm a little fatigued. You know, I was in meetings all day. And then I drove out Monday morning, meeting Monday night. That was up to about 1130, hanging out with some guys. And then got up early, meetings, hit the road right after lunch, got home, went to baseball games. And so I really haven't recovered from just the driving and the mental capacity of all that. So I'm a little sluggish today. I'm thankful that we started our summer break for our small group. So we don't have service tonight when we're recording this on Wednesday. And so, yeah, things are things are going good. Just hitting the road, ready, ready for big Dallas. Man, it's coming up. We'll be there in just a couple of weeks. I'll be there on the second at my sister's house. And so, man, we're excited about getting 14 days away from ministry and just a time of rest, relaxation, convention work. And it's going to be great. We've had a pretty busy season of life, too. We've got a crusade coming up in our county. Alex McFarlane from American Family Radio is going to preach a four-day-long crusade in our county. And it's kind of laid on me to organize it. I'm the evangelism director for our local association. And so we've been gathering pastors and getting churches together, getting that planned. Every month it gets closer. We're going to have it in September. So we've been planning on that. And then we have a community day coming up where we're going to the local Dollar General store. We're going to give out free hamburgers and just kind of serve our community. And people in my church are really excited about that. We're looking forward to it. But just like you, we've got some downtime coming up this Memorial Day weekend. I've got a camp on the Bogochitta River. And I say that five times fast. And so we are going to Bogochitta. And we're going to do some swimming, some fishing. We're going to come back to the church for a few days. And they're going to turn right around and go on to Dallas. And so we are looking forward to getting away and enjoying that. And let's see. We've got Dallas coming up. We don't have G3 anymore. That's. Brett, I'm afraid if I said that word Bogochitta, if I said that more than one time in a row, I would begin cussing. And so I don't know how you said that multiple times because that was incredible. Yeah. Bogochitta. No Bogochitta. Bogochitta. But, yeah, we've raised around that river. But my dad's got a camp down there. It's now mine. And so we are looking forward to getting away and enjoying some of that time. Let's see. We've got Dallas. And then we've got Israel. Don't forget about Israel. It's still there. We still want to bring you to Israel. Check out the website and go with us. The last January 1st, February 2025. It'll be a great experience. Yeah. We've got Dallas. Speaking of Dallas, we're going to be meeting up while we're there. If you're in the area, let us know. We're going to have some people over at our house. We're also going to maybe hang out at a lounge and enjoy some company. And so we're going to have a supply of our cigars with us. I think we're going to have close to 40 or 50 cigars with us. And so if you're interested in picking up some while we're there, come see me or Brett. We'll have them. And so we're really excited about that and excited about some things with that adventure that's going to be coming at the end of the summer. We are going to, we're really close to rolling out some great things. And so excited about that opportunity. And then Brett, this is, this is new. I just found out yesterday. We haven't even had time to talk about it, but there's going to be a conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee in September since G3 got canceled that we're going to go to. And I'll be there at least. It's just about 20 minutes, 30 minutes from John's house. So I'm going to be lodging with John and we're going to set up our cigars there in Tullahoma. And we're going to be at the conference, but also be promoting that adventure and be able to sell to those who are interested there locally. So we're excited about that and what we've got going on. Amen. I'm ready to go and I'll look into it. That's pretty cool. And look, before we get into our interview in just a second, I do want to say, listen, guys, I know our summer break is right around the corner, but we're not stopping with these fundamental footprints. We've got big plans. We've got big things coming. We've got interviews that are going to shock you. We've got, we've got ahold of some people that are like, what? I can't believe they got this guy to interview. And so we've got some things coming down the pike. Even after the summer break, we're going to come back. We're going to hit the ground running with this thing. And we're looking forward to what we've got coming down the pike. Yeah. We were planning to, you know, just hit this real briefly and be done by the summer. And the way that things have rolled out with interviews and other things, we're going to just sort of keep going with some interviews right now. And then when we come back from our break, our summer break, we're going to roll out some, we may Brett, we may call it the, the bald man interviews. That may be, maybe it's a little hint there to some guys we've got coming on. Be thinking of some bald preachers, some bald guys that are leading in the independent world, but also in the recovering world and looking forward to some great things. Some big time interviews that we've got coming up. So yeah, be careful criticizing them. They'll get the sheep bears after you. Love it. Well, we are excited about what we've got going today. Brett, why don't we jump right into our interview today? Let's go. Well, we are excited about having Joseph Oaks here today for our interview today. He is a graduate and an expertise, you could say, at Bob Jones University. And we're excited to have him on. Joseph, welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us just a little bit about yourself, your background, where you're from, and what you're doing now. Yeah. So thanks again for having me on today. My name is Joseph Oaks. I am originally from Eastern North Carolina, Atlanta. I attended Bob Jones from 2006 to 2010. I graduated there in 2010. Then after that, I went to NC State for my master's and PhD. Since then, I've been working here at Virginia Tech. Right now, I'm the director of an off-campus agricultural station. Virginia Tech has 11 ag research stations. I'm around the state. And I'm up here in Appahannock, Virginia, about an hour east of Richmond. So, yeah. So that's something about me. I can get more into things later as we go on. What year did you graduate from NC State? I got my master's in 2012 and my PhD in 2015. Gotcha. Gotcha. I have a couple guys from the church that went to the state. So, Stephen Cowell. I don't know if you'd know that name or not. But, yeah. In agriculture as well. So, yes. Cool. Yeah. Well, Joseph, we want to talk a little bit about your time in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement. We want to know how you first got involved with it. What initially attracted you to it? Yeah. So, I'll back up some. My parents started attending an Independent Baptist church when I was five or six in Greenville, North Carolina. I started going to the Christian school there when I was in the garden. And at that time, both of my parents had been raised Methodist and they had been attending a Methodist church. Or they had gone there their whole lives. But before I was born, there was some things they just didn't see eye to eye with anymore. My dad had gotten saved a couple weeks before I was born. And that started to have some questions in his mind about things that the Methodist church was teaching, things of that nature. Well, anyway, long story short, the Methodist church, they went to quit having Sunday school in the summer. And that was like their ticket or their thing saying, OK, we have a new child. We want them to be in church and Sunday school, things of that nature. So that's when they started attending the church where I was going to school at. Now, it was an Independent Baptist church and they made no apologies for that. But I'll say it's not like a lot of IFP churches that you would hear about on either your podcast or the RFP or something like that. They preached the word. They were not focused on externals, things of that nature. You know, women in the church, in the school were pants. Thanks. So it's not like that they were really hardcore about, you know, those external things. So I know I didn't ever really have a bad experience there as some folks I would have at other places. And I'm very thankful for that. My pastor, he preached the word. You know, he preached the expository preaching. And then he retired when I was, I think it's 2010, 2011. He retired. That was after I graduated from Bob Jones. And then a new pastor, Amen. And he's kind of made some more changes, I would say, at that church. A lot of the music has changed, which has upset some folks, things of that nature. My mom told me about a family that said the day they brought all the drums, they walked out, things of that nature. So, you know, they're still independent. They still preached the word, but they've made a lot of changes and have praise, music, drums, and things like that. So that's long story short, kind of my experience and how I was introduced to the independent Baptist church. Yeah, a lot of people we talk to, that is, it's very similar. You know, they're sort of born into it or their family was sort of born into it. So when we ask that question, sometimes it's, I was later on in life, you know, Brett's story as a teenager. Yeah, they were going to a liberal church. And so he was the only one in his family that sort of went to the independent church down the road because they were preaching truth and they were right. And I was a bus kid. And so I was the only one in my family that went there. Yeah. So I think it's interesting to ask that because it gives us a perspective of, you know, is this part of your whole life? Did you choose this? Where is it at? But then you said you went to Bob Jones and it sort of fits in with where we're at. We're talking about our fundamental footprints right now. And so we want us to just to sort of explore before you went to NC State and you got your master's and doctorate there. What was your experience like at Bob Jones University? And give us the years you were there, who was in charge while you were there. Yeah. So I was there from 2006 to 2010. Stephen Jones was president when I was there. I think he had been there a couple of years. They had they just made the transition from Bob Jones, the third to Stephen Jones, Bob Jones, the third. I was still there as chancellor. He was very much involved. I would say at least once or twice a week. He would preach chapel, things of that nature. So he was still there. You would see him a lot. But Stephen Jones was the president at that time. So, yeah. And so basically talking about my experiences there. I would say overall it was very, very good. I got a great education there, which very well prepared me to go to NC State to get my master's and PhD. I tell people that the classes, the undergrad classes there were tougher than the graduate level courses I took at NC State. And Bob Jones had just recently become a graded, I think, the year or two before I got there. So I didn't have any trouble or anything like that, you know, going to grad school. One thing I think is important to point out is that no matter what your major was and my major was biology and my minor was in business. You were required to take a Bible course every semester. So I remember. So I remember. Excuse me. I remember. I think I was either a sophomore. I don't remember what year, but I took a hermeneutics class. And that was really the first time I heard a lot about that. And I remember the professor talked about exegesis and eisegesis. And once I heard that, I guess the scales kind of fell off my eyes. You know, from there on out, I always looked at sermons differently. You know, whether a pastor was preaching expositionally through the word or he was trying to read in his own opinion to it. So that's something that I learned in a hermeneutics class at Bob Jones that that stuck up with me through this day. You know, I think the biblical worldview is very important that they have there, you know, especially taking science classes. That's very key. Most folks at that age, they're very. They can be easily swayed, things of that nature in their faith and their belief system. So, you know, if they were to go to a secular school, then with someone teaching evolution, then their faith might be swayed. So I think that was very important. The science classes there were all top notch. Most of the teachers that taught the science courses there had worked in their field before they came to Bob Jones so that they had had a career in what they had were teaching. Most of them, I know they took a pay cut to come teach at Bob Jones. And so I think that's very commitmentable. Most all the teachers I had were good Christian folks. They were dedicated, dedicated Christians. They served in their church, things of that nature. So I can say from the faculty perspective, like the teaching faculty, the science faculty, folks like that, I never had a problem. I never had a bad experience or anything. One thing, another thing I wrote down just about the classes there, I think is key is that everyone is required to take at least two or two or three speech classes while they're there. And I think that's very important. You know, when I went to Bob Jones, I mean, I had a huge fear of public speaking. I stuttered quite a bit. I still do from time to time, but I don't care about it now. But, you know, I learned I remember I had a class there my junior year. I had to give a 30 minute talk. And if like the start of the year that scared me to death. But by the time I got to it, it was no big deal. And and now I give talks like that in my job all the time. So, you know, you know, to wrap this first part up, I think from an educational side, I think Bob Jones is top notch or it was then. I know. I don't really know exactly what's going on there now. I'll talk about that later. But from an educational side, when I was there, it was top top notch. Love it. One of the things, you know, my wife's school, they have recently moved over to the Bob Jones education school. And my kids, my wife, they love it. They think it's great. Yeah. Very deep, very educational, very astute in the way they do it. And it just shows the quality of the education for you as getting your undergrad there, but then going to NC State and them accepting all those credits, get your master's, get your Ph.D. level. So that's that's huge as far as the education side of it. While you were there, could you describe the church culture and leadership style and sort of what that was while you were there? Yeah. Yeah. So it was stated and emphasized several times that they were non-denominational. They made that clear. Although most folks that taught there and most of the admin, I would say, were independent Baptist. There were a lot of Bible churches in that area that folks went to several independent Baptist churches. So that's kind of what mostly was taught and what most folks were. I would say it was kind of a different situation than most Christian colleges. As you know, they don't have a church there. But when I was there, they would have a Sunday morning service. I don't think they do that now. But when I was there, they did. It was very formal. I think very high church. Oregon hymns, vibrato, music, things like that. It was very high church, very formal. So that was what was required for all undergraduate students unless you work in a church somewhere like as a Sunday school teacher or help with children's church or bus or something like that. So to be frank, I didn't care for their Sunday morning service. It was just too formal for my style. Most time the preaching was great, but I just didn't care for the formality of the service. So I don't remember what year I started, but I know I know my last two years I did. And I think part of my third year or my first year. But I worked at a local church. I served there. I helped with their children's church and things like that. So that kind of got me out of not having to go to the Sunday morning service there, which I think improved my experience somewhat. So I was able to go to a local church and be involved there and go Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, things of that nature. So I would say most students there, well, I would say about half of them probably went to that Sunday morning service. And then the other half had a church that they served at and went to it other times throughout Sunday nights, things like that. It was not required for students to go to Sunday night or Wednesday night service off campus. But they did ask you each month if you did or not. I don't know why, since it wasn't, since it wasn't, I'm required. But anyway, so, so that that's kind of the, the, the church culture there. I'm, I'm with that answers are your question. I can go into more detail and things, but I say the leadership style and I can go into now some of the leadership, the leadership style and rules, things of that nature, if you want. The leadership style was very focused on external standards, external conformity, how we portray ourselves to the public, things of that nature, which, which to a certain extent is fine, in my opinion. At some point, you know, what you're going to get when you go over there. But where I saw it, where I saw an issue with is when they tried to tie it to holy, living, godliness, things like that. You know, it's great that we all want to have these, this great portrayal to our community. But just because you're following rules don't mean you're right with God, things of that nature. So, so when it comes to the rules, they were very strict on the freshmen and sophomores. Everyone there could have cars. But if you're a freshman or sophomore, you could not take your car off campus unless you were going to work at a church, as I said, or as I said earlier. So that, that, that, that's the only way if you were a freshman or sophomore that, that you could use your car. If not, you had to ride with someone who was an upperclassman. So they kept your cars locked away almost if you were a freshman or sophomore. Once you became a junior or senior, that opened up, those freedoms opened up quite a bit. You were able to go off campus. Now, if it was before seven o'clock, then you didn't have to make a pass or anything like that. But after seven o'clock, you would have to create a pass. And all that was done online and they had guys that worked at the, the, the devs who worked for the dean of students. And they were basically approve it or not. But, you know, are y'all guys, I mean, you had to tell them where you were, you were going, things like that, you know, shopping, out to eat, you know, going to a ball game or something. Or, yeah, whatever. The thing I always did was be as vague as possible. So there's never a question. You wouldn't really get in trouble there. You know, you're going shopping and then doing several other things. Then you just say, I'm going shopping and out to eat. And, you know, you might be going four or five hours or something like that. So, um, I would say, um, you know, when I was there, there were a lot of folks who were all about other rules. They were called a boge. That's what it was called. You know, folks that you knew might snitch on your things like that. Um, I wasn't like that. You know, I tried to keep my head low. I mean, I didn't always obey all the rules, but I didn't ever really get in trouble there. I guess I knew that. I just knew how to keep my head low, things like that. Um, but overall, I mean, if somebody is not used to that, those sets of rules, I think it was a shock to them. But for most folks that grew up in a Christian home with rules and standard standards, I didn't think it was that bad. Um, looking back on it now, I was like, yeah, they probably treated, you know, folks 18 to 20, 22, like children, children. But, uh, you know, um, I think some of that has changed now, but, um, I'm just trying to look through some notes I had written down. Yeah. Yeah. While you say that, I was listening to a podcast just the other day and, uh, they had made the statement that, uh, a lot of the higher education learning, this was nothing to do with public school or any, or. Right. Uh, has really, it has coddled the maturity of men and women because it just keeps us in the adolescent state even longer. Yeah. I believe poor people and people need to go for certain reasons. Um, but it has turned into this, uh, we're going to take all the responsibility away from you and we're going to keep you in that dependent adolescent state and not be a contributing member to society longer of life. Exactly. And that, that, uh, just on a couple of other things I wanted to mention, um, they, they did have an approved list of churches in the area that you could go, go to. And the more and more I think about that, I'm like, well, once you get out of college, you're not going to have anybody telling you where you can go to church. It's up for you and your wife or your family to make that choice where you're going to go to church. So why not go ahead and get into that habit while you're in college? I mean, I know why they would do it to protect, you know, folks from learning false teaching, I guess, false doctrine at other churches. But, you know, once you're out, you're not going to have nobody tell you to go to this church or you can't go to that church. So, um, I think that part is kind of unnecessary. Another, another thing they did that I think it had good intentions, but they would require everyone to go to class, which I think is great. But that doesn't help someone out for when they get out of school. I mean, when you're out of school, there's nobody going to be telling you, hey, you go to work today. I mean, if you don't go to your job, you'll get fired, you know. And so that's another way where you're 18 to 22 years old, you're out of the home, you should be taking some responsibility at that point. You know, if you go to class, then you do good. If you don't, then you don't learn, you fail. You know, that's just kind of how I view things. So, um, you know, and I had a professor say one time, he said, you, you, you will be thankful that we made you go to class because most schools don't. And I'm like, yeah, I know that. But if you don't go, you'll fail and you're ultimately paying out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of go. So if you fail enough classes, you will eventually learn that you need to be, to be there. Yeah. Right. At some point you got to learn self-responsibility. Exactly. I relate to you a little bit on the church Sunday morning deal because at First Baptist Hammond, I wasn't too keen on that Sunday morning service. So I got into children's church to get out of it. Yeah. So I definitely can relate a little bit, but I'm sitting here listening to you talk. And this question kind of comes up in my mind. When you were in that environment, did you, were you convinced by it or did you see it and like, uh, something's not right? It's not right here. how much of that actually shaped your view of ministry and the gospel and how much of it were your eyes open to? It was like, ah, that didn't seem right to me. Yeah, I don't think I was necessarily shaped by it. I think you could pretty much tell who was real and who wasn't, you know, who was actually there to, you know, from the faculty standpoint, who was there to serve the Lord through their teaching at Bob-Bob Jones. And then there were some folks that you knew were not, were fake. You know what I'm saying? I think that that was very obvious. So I don't think it shaped my view of the God gospel one way or the other. You know, like I said, I, you know, when you go, you more or less know what the rules are. You sign the handbook that you're going to obey the rules. So, I mean, at that point, it's on you. I mean, you know, you can kind of go along with them while you're there, even though you don't agree with some things. But as far as how it shaped my view of the gospel, I don't think it did one way or the other. I would say most Bible faculty there from everything I either took from the Bible classes I took or for when they preached in chapel, they were all great. You know, and I can touch more on this later. I don't know if you know this, but Bob Jones is not King James only. And that's probably a sticking point for most folks in the IFB. You know, I don't know what they do now. When I was there, they would preach in chapel and church services from the King James. But when, you know, in it, but most students there, I did not use the King James in class that they would have, you know, ESB, New American Standard, New King James, things like that. So that was pretty much expected. Most of the churches that faculty and staff went to are not all King James only. So that was kind of eye-opening me. I mean, I knew it was like that, but the church I grew up in was King James only. And I remember someone said, well, they're not King James. You're going to a liberal school. I was like, well, they're not very liberal. I mean, I guess in that sense, I don't know if they are, but as far as the fundamentals of the faith and things of that nature, that they were very straight. So, you know, and I don't, I mean, for me now, that's not a big deal one way or the other. I mean, what I view it as, I received a great education there. And if they're King James or not, at that point, it didn't matter to me. Okay. Well, you didn't leave Bob Jones. You graduated. And so what we want to talk about now is your shift away from the IFB movement. Was there like a specific turning point or gradual shift? What kind of made you step away from the IFB? And also after that, tell us what was the hardest part of leaving? Yeah. Before I do that, can I jump back into a couple things about Bob Jones? All right, quick, if you can edit that part out. There were a couple things on the rules aspect I wanted to touch on. So when I was first started, there was, you wear shirt and tie, khaki pants to class and girls wear skirts, things of that nature. Even going off campus, you would have to wear khaki pants, collar shirt, things of that nature. And girls, of course, have to wear skirts and dresses. So when I was there, that rule changed as far as going off campus, guys can wear jeans off campus, girls can wear pants. So I think that's changed more since then. But one funny thing I wanted to share. The first couple of years there, you couldn't even wear shorts outside of your dorm. But most folks would to go either to take out the trash or go outside to talk on the phone or something like that. So one night I went outside to talk on the phone. I had my gym shorts on. I was sitting on a bench outside the front door. And one guy came out. He's like, hey, man. He's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Hey, you know you can't wear short shorts outside, don't you? I was like, yeah, I know. I'm just out here on the phone. He's like, oh, well, you can't do that. You're breaking the rules. I'm like, okay, whatever. And so like five minutes later, the dorm supervisor pokes his head out. He's like, hey, man, I don't care. But somebody said that you were wearing shorts out here. So if you don't mind, next time just change. So he was cool about it. But, you know, what was funny that next year, they actually changed that rule. So guys couldn't wear shorts outside. I'm around their dorms. So I take credit as for getting that rule changed. But anyway. I have one question. I heard a rumor years ago. It may have been Bob Jones. It may have been B. I can't remember. But was Bob Jones the one that had men and women sidewalks? No. No. Yeah. I have heard that, too. I think that was a joke at one time. But, no, when I was there, no, they didn't. Okay. But, anyway. Do you have anything else to add before we jump into the. No, I don't think. I mean, one other thing. Well, a couple of things I'll add. If you want to include this, it's great. If not, that's fine. When I first. And this kind of explains how you could see who was fake and who wasn't. When I was first there, there was a rule. No facial hair on students, faculty, staff. You know, anything like that. Well, I don't know if it was my sophomore or junior year. But they had a play where Stephen Jones, the president. I was in the play. You know, Bob Jones is real big into fine arts plays. You know, productions, things of that nature. So, they had a play where he would. He had to grow a beard. For the. For that part of the play. And it was a whole or deal. You know, you know. We're just doing this for the play. But, you know, as far as. As folks being allowed to do that. I always still don't condone that. Things like. It's just for being his play. So. But. The students there. And I signed the petition. We created a petition for. Dr. Stephen Jones to keep his facial hair. So, he did. After the play, he kept it. And then. The next year. They made a rule. That. Faculty, staff. And. Grad students could grow facial hair. But undergrads couldn't. So, I mean. At that point. Every guy. You know. Every. Grad student. Dorm supervisor. Things like. I mean. They all let their beard grow. But what. What always struck me. Was the ones that would. That grew their beards out. It seems like. They were the ones. Who were the most. Strict on undergrads. As to shaving. I'm like. That's so fake. You know. Rules for thee. But not. Or rules for me. But not. For the. And that's always stuck with me. I like. I know to this day. Guys that grew their beards out. But they were the most strict. On making sure that other. Folks. Kept their. Their. Beard shape. Sir. Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you. I wasn't allowed to grow a beard. Until I was 31 years old. And. I've had a beard. Every day. Since then. Yeah. So. So. So I definitely can. It's just. It's an environment. That they. Create. With that legalism. And. They kind of. You know. Constructed that. Yeah. Well. Let's get back to. Yeah. To learn about that. No. It's okay. Yeah. Just talk to us about. You know. You stepping away from the IFB. And what was kind of the turning point there. Yeah. So. I think you asked. And. You know. Was it. Abrupt. Or. Or was it. Gradual. I would say. For me. It's being. Grad. Grad. Grad. Gradual. And I mean. I. I wouldn't say. I've totally. Stepped away from me. Of course. The. The hardcore. IFB. The externals. All of that. You know. I've. Stepped away from. But. In. My. Mind. And it started. When I was in. College. But. You know. When you're growing up. You hear. A lot of stuff. Preached. That you know. Is not in the Bible. But you. Just kind of. Don't think. And. You don't think about it. As a child. But. You know. As you get older. You become more mature. You. You learn. Things. You. You start to. Examine that more. And I'd say. That's what I've. Done a lot. The last. 15 years. Or so. You know. Try to. I mean. It sounds. Clicé. But. Try to make my faith. And practice. What's in the Bible. I will not. What some. Man is decided. Of what he thinks. It says. In the Bible. And that's kind of. Been. My whole. What's kind of. Caused me to. Turn. Turn. Turn. Turn. Turn. Away from. Some of that. Hardcore. I have to be. As I said. Before. The church. I go to now. Is. I'm independent. Baptist. But. My pastors. Said. You know. We're not. You know. Independent. Fundamental. Mental. Baptist. Or anything. Like that. You know. I go to. Do a great church. Up here. In Virginia. You know. We have. Folks. That wear suits. Folks. That wear shorts. You know. And it's. It's all. In between. You know. We have. Women. Women. Who wear. Dread. Dresses. Folks. Who wear jeans. And it's. You know. It doesn't. Matter. You know. If you. Serve. Or if you're not serving. You know. It's not. Not a big deal. At my church. And I think that's. Key. Because. You know. Through this. IFB movement. There's been a lot of focus. On. External. Urnals. What you wear. Well. What you do. Things. That are just not in. Scripture. That you can't find. Anywhere. And you bring in. A new. Christian. To a church. And they hear some guy. Ranting. Raving. About something. That's not in the Bible. Then that's. Really going to. Make them. Be like. Well. Why. Should I even. Come here at all. And. So. I don't say. You know. Just to. Wrap it up. I mean. It was a gradual shift. And it was just that. Only. I guess. Not being hardcore. About something. That's not. In the Bible. So. Mainly focusing on. What's in the Bible. You know. The same thing. With the. The King James thing. You know. Yes. Folks prefer. One or the other. And we can discuss. That all day long. But. If. If you can't. Go to the Bible. And specifically. Tell me. One way. Or the other. Then. You know. It's not. Well. Was there like. A hard part. Of stepping away. Did you. Get any blowback. Or pushback. From anybody. For it. No. I don't think so. No. I mean. I have. There hasn't really. Been a hard part. You know. I have seen. Are the things. That. Well. The things. It's hard for me. To see. Is. We went. A church. Like. My home church. Back in. In. North Carolina. They. Changed their music. Some. You know. They have drums. They sing praise songs. They have a. World. Worship team. Things of that nature. You know. To see folks leave. Over that. When the. Preaching. Hasn't changed. I think. For me. That's the. Hardest part. And the saddest thing. To leave over. Something like that. When the. Preaching. Has not changed. I mean. The pastor. Still the same. He's still. Preaching the word. And. The only thing. That's changing. I mean. I know folks. Have their. Music styles. That they prefer. Things of that nature. And that's fine. But. I think it's sad. That. That. There's so much work. That the church. Needs to be doing. Externally. You know. Winning folks to Christ. Things of that nature. That. We're fighting over. Whether. There's a. A drum set in church. Or it's a. Praise song. Or something. Like that. Gotcha. Well. One last question. Before we conclude. With any final thoughts. You may have. I get this phone call. Once a week. If not. More than that. But. But guys will call me. I had a guy from Virginia. Actually called me. Just a couple weeks ago. And he. He said. I'm looking for. A healthy church. I'm looking for. Something that. That is not what I was raised in. I'm starting to question. Some of those core beliefs. That we have. Yeah. The drums. Things like that. What advice would you give. To someone that's looking for that. And. How would you. Sort of help. Some. Been going through that process. Yes. So. What I would say. And. What I. Try to do. Is. Focus on. What's being preached. From the. The pulpit. You know. Is the pastor. Preaching. Verse by verse. Or is he just getting up. And reading a verse. And. You know. Going off on. A. Rang. Rang. Rang. A rang. Rang. Rang. For an hour. You know. What's the pastor's spirit like. How does he. Treat the folks there. In the church. You know. You know. The main thing. I think. Is what's being preached. And is it from the Bible. You know. How. Do the. The. Programs. At the church. Fit into your. Family needs. I've got a wife. And three. Three kids. Eight. Five. And three. You know. Our church. Has a great. Kids. Pro. Pro. Program. You. You. Youth group. Children's church. Things of that nature. You know. Are. Are. They. Are. The needs. Of my children. Being met. Through their. Children's church. Youth group. Things of that nature. You know. What's being taught. To. To. To. To. To. To. To. To. You know. Are. There. Kids. There. You know. Where. I live. In rural. Of Virginia. Here. There's. A lot. Of. Churches. That. Don't. Have. A lot. Of. Young. People. I mean. It's. Just. An older. Population. Here. So. A lot. Of. The churches. That you. Visit. Here. You know. Every. Are. Everyone. There. Almost. Over. 60. And. That's. Great. But. If. You've. Got. A young. Family. Then. That might. Not. Be the. The best. Place. For. You. You know. Right. Now. We drive. About. 40. And. It's. Two. Two. Two. Church. Just. Just. Because. Of. Where. Where. We. We. Live. So. I. Think. It's. Just. Key. To. Focus. On. What. The pastor. Is. Preaching. You know. If. You. Prefer. A. Music. Music. Style. King James. Or. Not. You know. That's. Fine. I guess. But. You know. I've. Kind of. Moved. Beyond. That. I mean. You know. I think. It's. Was. Being. Preached. Is. It. From. The. Bible. Are. Your. Kids. And. Are. Your. Family's. Needs. Being. Met. There. And. Then. How. Can. You. Serve. How. Can. You. Get. Get. Get. Involved. And. Serve. Thanks. Man. I appreciate it. Well. Any. Closing. Thoughts. For. You. Anything. That. That. You. May. Want. To. Share. With. Our. Listeners. Or. Things. That. You. May. Have. Brett. Maybe. You've. Got. A. Question. For. As. Well. That. Yeah. He said. Something. No. I'm. Just. Wanting. Just. Would. You. Have. Any. Closing. Thoughts. Or. Anything. You'd. Like. To. You. Like. To. Say. Before. We. Sign. Off. Yeah. I'll. Just. Say. I mean. As. You. Can. Tell. From. My. Interview. Here. I mean. My. Experience. There. At. Bob. Jones. I. Was. Great. I. Know. That's. Not. The. Case. For. Everyone. I'm. Sure. You'll. Talk. To. Folks. Who. I. Did. Not. Have. A. Good. Experience. There. You. Know. I've. Heard. Of. Some. Very. Bad. Things. That. Have. Gone. On. There. Over. The. Years. On. I. Personally. Did. Not. Witness. That. I've. Never. Seen. Anything. Like. That. In. My. Four. Years. There. So. I. Can't. Speak. To. Do. Do. That. I. Know. There. Was. An. Issue. I. Guess. In. The. The. Late. Nine. Nineties. Early. Two. Thousand. About. I'm. Interracial. Dating. And Bob. Jones. When. I. Was. There. That. Was. Not. A. That. Was. Not. An. Issue. There. Was. Plenty. Of. Interracial. Dating. Going. Going. On. And. That. That. That. Was. No. Problem. I. I. Sure. It. Was. I. I'm sure it was before I was there, but my time there, no. So, like I said, I mean, I had a great experience there. I recognize that may not be the case for everyone. And if there is someone there that had some bad problem or some bad issues there or some negative experiences, you know, I feel full for them. And I hope that they can get that. I hope that they can achieve out of the help that they need through and through and through that. You know, and just one thing I'll mention before we wrap up, there's been a lot of among some of the BJU alumni. I'm on a couple of Facebook groups of alumni. And there's been a lot of concern in recent years, I think in 2014. So four years after I left Steve Pettit, he became the president. And he was there from 2014 to 2022. And in my opinion, I mean, I didn't. I mean, I don't have any direct connections to the college during that time. But in my opinion, he did a great job. And he kind of removed more of the external conformity rules. He removed the church list, you know, the list of approved churches and things like that. And he received a lot of pushback from that from the board of trustees. And he was he was forced out in 2023. And I think that's sad because he he was making some very, very, very, very good changes and strides there at the school. And since he's been forced out in 23, that they've had three presidents since then. And there's been actually just yesterday, they named a new president. So as far as that goes, I don't know what direction he plans to take to school. But I know the school is in some financial trouble from things. Things I've heard that the attendance is starting to to go down some. So, you know, I don't know what the future is, but I just hope that. They can stay in business to make to keep providing folks a quality Christian education. Most Christian colleges, as you're aware of, don't offer things like business, accounting, science, things of that nature, you know, to go out and to do a secular type jobs. So I think it's great to have a place that can provide that course of study from a Christian worldview. Love it. Well, thank you, Joseph, for coming on today. Yeah, sure. Share your testimony with us. It's great. We enjoyed it. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. A lot of times people question and will say, you know, you are just doing this just to bash people or just to bash a college. But, you know, it is also good just to be able to hear the good experiences. You know, I had a great experience while I was at my college. Yeah. Looking back, there were some things that I would do different. Yep. Exactly. But it is great to have that and to hear that. And so thank you for coming on. Yeah, for sure. As we close out, we are looking forward to the future of the podcast and the other interviews we've got coming up. And so until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning. Has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast.tletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletle

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