77. RFP Crossover Event with the Youth and Culture Podcast - How Can the Youth Affect the Culture?

I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. Those that criticize this kind of preaching, they don't like authority! If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got... Hey, if you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. And it'd be surprised. Son, don't go to sleep while I'm talking. Hey, hey, hey, don't you lay your head back. I'm important. I'm somebody. I love you. You know I love you. Have I convinced you I love you? You better nod your head yes, are you? Come on, put it right there. Stay awake and you listen to me. I still believe if you have cold day and healthy, I get my balance with a woman. I'm a preacher. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP network that seeks to bring freedom in Christ from the spiritual abuse of legalism. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. But I think bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome, everybody, to the For Freedom Podcast. And we're rocking and rolling on our sort of series that we're going through with interviewing different hosts of the Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast Network. And you got to hear last time the ladies from the Growing Grace. We had a wonderful time with that podcast. James, who we got today? John, well, we are excited. We've got two things coming up before we jump into this great interview. We've got the meetup coming up. That's why we're doing this series of crossover events to promote that. And so we've got that coming up November 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Hope you can be there. Me and John will be there. Unfortunately, our guys from Youth and Culture, their schedule is not going to allow them to be there. But they're still willing to come and talk to us today. And then we've got the Israel trip that I'm going to in January. And so you're going to, I think, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. So we'll be there together. Can't wait. And I'm excited about that. John just got back from the SING conference. No. No. The Biblical Counseling Conference. Biblical Counseling Conference. John, tell us about how that was briefly with your endeavors there. Oh, it was fantastic. Fantastic. We had a wonderful time. Got a lot of good stuff in the breakout sessions, which is why you go. Like, unlike most conferences, the plenaries are like, eh, take it or leave it. But it's the breakout sessions where the good stuff happens. But this one was different. The breakout, the plenary sessions were fantastic. They talked about the decay of human dignity in different areas between disabilities, partiality or racism, and male and female gender roles, and then also end of life and euthanasia issues. It was all fantastic having a biblical perspective from it. So it was a wonderful time. A lot of free stuff. Some brought back. A lot of books. Awesome. Awesome. Well, we are excited today about our crossover event with youth and culture. What kind of shallow person do you want to become? Recovering from fundamentalism or something. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. If there's such a word, you're stupider now. Don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and we'll all flub up together. Guys, how are you guys doing today? David here and Ryan. Ryan from North Carolina and David from Virginia. Welcome to the show. Give us an introduction of who you are and how you guys came together. Sure. I see. I see. David. David's pointed at me for those of you who cannot see from the airways. So I guess I'll go first. Again, I'm Ryan Sebastian. A little bit about myself. I'm a youth pastor in Morganton, North Carolina, which is the wet side of the state. I've been here for my current church for a little over a year. Before that, I was doing ministry in Lumberton, North Carolina, which is on the east side of the state. I was there for almost eight years doing ministry there. I had no plans of leaving, but God, of course, has different plans. And where I'm at today, loving it. Also, I do a lot of things, some things with Lifeway. I do on Youth Ministry Booster, which is their youth pastor network arm of Lifeway. I do a lot of what's called soul care or pastor counseling to pastors there. Also lead a, have led mastermind groups through that. And just living a life doing ministry. I have, of course, married and have two kids. My oldest is 10, almost 11. And my youngest is 7, about to be 8 here in the next in December, in this December. So my kids are wide and open in family life and doing ministry together. Loving it. And, of course, looking forward to see where God has next for us in ministry. Yeah. And I'm David Pinkham. I'm the youth pastor up in Prince George, Virginia. I've been at my church for about five years. I started full-time out in Roanoke, Virginia, after I went to school at Liberty. And I got married to my wife 11 years ago. And we now have seven children, ages 10 to 10 months. So that's a fun little gap we have there. There are twins, for those of you who are just freaking out right now doing the math. But it's been a wild ride for the last 11 years, just seeing how the Lord has been working. I'm also of the opinion that God's plans are very much more interesting than ours. And I'm actually in the middle of a transition point with my church and Word of Life. We have been through the training and the approval process. So my wife and I are technically officially Word of Life missionaries. And we will be transitioning eventually from my church as the youth pastor back to being a regular old church member. And then being a missionary to the eastern and northern part of Virginia. So I get to serve churches all over the place on the eastern half of Virginia. And it was pointed out to me the other day that that's where all the blue spots are. So it's going to be interesting. But the Lord has been moving. We're currently in the... What's the old version of saying I'm in the deputation phase right now. So that's what we're doing. And the church has allowed me to stay on full time so I can keep feeding my kids. Which is... I'm very thankful for that. But I'm looking forward to the conversation today and just talking with you guys. Yeah. You've got seven kids. So you meet the minimum criteria to be a missionary. You've got to make sure you've got plenty of kids for that. Total with us four here, we've got 16 kids represented between the four of us. I mean, we've got a small church just between us four. And that's crazy. But seven, you've got two, Ryan. I've got three. John has four. So, yeah, me and John are done having kids. I don't know about you guys. Yes. Done. 100%. Yes. Yep. So, all right. Well, let's... How did you guys meet? Okay, you're from North Carolina, from Lumberton, or where you were at for eight years. David, you were up in Virginia. Word of Life, Southern Baptist. How did this connection happen? So, actually, we're both from North Carolina, but we never met. We actually met because we both were students at Liberty University, and we were both serving in the youth ministry at the same church. And I think we just met in a youth leaders meeting, probably. And then, eventually, we both got put in positions of more of an administrative role in different rooms because they had to split their youth group up into different rooms because of the number of kids and the size of the rooms we had. And so, it was like middle school, then 9th and 10th, then 11th and 12th. And I think Ryan was the admin for the 11th and 12th grade room? Well, 9th and 10th were two years, and then one year I was 11th and 12th. All right. So, they probably moved you to 11th and 12th and then put me and Emily in for 9th and 10th that last year. And then we both started looking for full-time youth pastor positions at the same time. So, we would swap churches. Like, if he went and interviewed and they were like, nah, he would give me the church and vice versa. And I think we, did we find churches around the same time or did you get, I think you got to yours first. It was, if I remember correctly, it was around the same time. I think we were both in the process, in the interview process, pretty in-depthly at both churches around the same time. I think I, my church maybe moved a little bit more quicker than yours. And so, I was able to get out, move a little bit before you, but it was about the, it was about the exact same time. Yeah. And the, one of the funny parts of that is that was at our first churches. So, I was at mine for three and a half years. He was at his for seven. And the church I'm at now, Ryan actually interviewed at, at one point. That is true. Yeah. So, I interviewed and they, and, and surprisingly, they said no. So humble. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So, we've been, I mean, we've been friends for years and we stayed connected over the years. And then, I forgot, when did you start the podcast? Because I wasn't there at the beginning. Yeah. I started it May, 2009. Oh, 2019. Sorry. Okay. May, 2019 is when I, when I started. Yeah. Gotcha. Great. And then he, he interviewed me for one of the episodes. And then, I don't know when you asked me to co-host, but the timing was impeccable. Our first episode we recorded together, we recorded it on like a Monday or a Tuesday, scheduled it to be released that Friday. And that was the week of the shutdowns. Wow. That's very similar to ours in it. Really? So, really what you're saying is you guys started the shutdowns or? We've been trendsetters for years, man. It's conspiracy theory. Hey, there's one for you. That's right. Youth and Culture did it. So, today, you guys run Youth and Culture and awesome to be a part of you guys with the network and some other things that you've got going on. Listened to several episodes and enjoyed your guys' content. So, today, we're taking Youth and Culture and we're taking a play on those words and we're talking about how can the youth affect the culture. And so, maybe this is more geared toward student pastors or even students and just sort of talk through this, but what is the goal? You've been, you've had your podcast around for a while. What do you see the goal of your podcast? What's your clientele? What do you see coming out of this endeavor with the podcast? Well, I can just share of how I got started and we're kind of involved in tune. I'll let David kind of speak into it, too. But, originally, when I started the podcast back in 2019, it was out of, essentially, it was because the county that we were in had 300-plus churches, cross denominations. All of them were bivocational youth pastors, except I think about five or six, which is insane to think about. And so, there was no way of really connecting and networking together. So, I was trying to think of something that can provide training and equipping pastors in our county. For the longest time, I kept thinking, I love listening to podcasts. And so, podcasts kept coming to my mind to start one. I kept saying, no. I didn't feel like I was talented or good enough to start one. And finally, I just said, forget it. I'm just going to start it. If it crashes and burns, it crashes and burns. So, I started first episode back in May 2019. Starting small, and then, of course, God, not thinking it wasn't going as big as it did. God had different plans and took it and ran with it. I've been able to talk to people and interact with people I've never in a million years thought I would have an opportunity to have a conversation with. And then, so, back in late 2019, I interviewed a, his name is Jody Livingston. He's part of the Longer Hall Youth Ministry podcast. And one thing I do is always ask, what do you recommend me doing to improve as a podcast host, as having a podcast? And one thing he said, the one thing that would have helped me tremendously is having a co-host, having someone to bounce back and forth things with, someone to interact, someone to help you as you're planning. And I said, that's a great idea. That's something I've been thinking about for a while. And so, I spent some time thinking about it and thinking about who I'd ask. And Dave is one of the first people that I thought of. First of all, we've been friends for years. And second of all, we have very similar views theologically and biblically and ministry-wise. We have the same kind of similar philosophies. Also, me and him, we just bounce off each other very easily. As far as talking back and forth, we're both ADD. I haven't been diagnosed yet. Me neither. But I'm pretty sure I'm ADD. So, we're both ADD. We're both... I think that's a prerequisite for any youth pastors to be ADD. Well, I have been called extra. And I was... I don't know what happened, but they were like, dude, you're so extra. And I was like, well, you can't be extroverted without being extra. So... Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So, anyway, so I asked David. Of course, David spent some time praying about it. And then... Pretty sure I said no first. You did say no first. And then I told you to pray about it. And then through the prayer and talking to his wife, he said yes. And again, our first episode was right before COVID hit. First episode will be released not long after that is when everything shut down. And before then, as a podcast, we're doing very well. But the podcast exploded in a lot of ways for us during COVID. And I really think part of that is because of just me and David, our interaction, our chemistry that we have in our podcast. I think that a lot of it had to do with it. Because, again, nobody wants to listen just me talk. I'm boring. So I knew that going in. But anyway, so that's kind of how Let Us Meeting Story Podcast. And the purpose of it evolved. It evolved originally to help youth pastors in my area. That as we were growing as a podcast, it evolved to where the goal is essentially is to help youth pastors and youth leaders be effective in their ministry. But by also talking about topics that most youth, either youth conferences or youth, specifically youth podcasts, kind of stray away from. I'm not saying we don't talk about things that other people do. It's just we try to hit topics that most people don't are afraid of either diving into. We talked about one, interviewing about pornography and sexual addiction and lining up that with pastors. And that's something that I haven't heard in a youth pastor, at least popular youth pastor podcasts and even conferences for that matter. So we try to hit topics that most people don't for engaging youth culture, engaging youth ministry culture to better equip and better train youth pastors. Yeah. And one of the things that kind of got me excited about joining was when I was in Roanoke, there was a group of youth pastors. We'd get together every month for lunch and we would eat for an hour and then talk shop for an hour. And usually one of them brought a devotional to do and share with the guys just to encourage one another. And there was a lot of camaraderie and it was easy to get together and even plan events with each other's youth groups and just kind of work together as the church in Roanoke and not just our each individual churches. And then when I got out to where I'm at now, which is for some people in the middle of nowhere, it's not quite there. It's on the edge of it, but it's really hard to find other youth pastors to network with and to just have a buddy in the area you can have lunch with and just detox with each other. Or one of you is having a rough week of ministry and so you tell the other one what's going on and he can encourage you, bring you back down to reality if you're just being a whiny baby, you know, that kind of stuff. And so not having that and not having that ability to just bounce stuff off of people, I think that's one of the things that I've appreciated about having this podcast is that even for me as a youth pastor, I go back and I listen to the episodes because I listen to what our guests say and the input that they have. And it's helped me feel more connected to the mind of the, you know, the average youth pastor these days and figure out, you know, what is it that they're dealing with. The constant shift of our culture has been insanely quick. And I mean, when we were students at Liberty, they told us the youth culture changes every five years. I'm pretty sure it's now every five seconds, but we can thank TikTok for that. Uh, but we have, you know, it's the, maybe COVID contributed to this, but the isolation that we're all feeling, um, and some are actually dealing with, especially for the rural youth pastor, um, it can be pretty daunting. And so having that lifeline there, uh, we want to be able to do that for guys. And I've been amazed at the reception because you know how you look at the backend and you can see which episodes are the most popular. Um, our episode about lying about Santa is like in the top five still. And I don't understand why, but it is. And it's not all about Santa, but we just ran to Santa. Yes. I kind of parked there for a little too long. Um, but I mean, we're, you know, we want to help. Um, we don't, I don't think either one of us claim to be experts in the field. Um, but I try to live the mantra. My dad told me when I graduated from high school, get plugged into a local church and stay teachable. And, uh, yeah, that'll take you further than most of the other advice the world has to offer. That's great. And, uh, I've enjoyed, like I said, listening to you guys and, and gleaning from it. And, and even in that same sense of what you said, for me, it's a youth pastor. Um, in Idaho, we did, uh, we just sort of formulated a, a, a gathering of youth pastors. It turned into like 10 or 12. And those are some of my most grateful memories of just guys getting together, having lunch. And here now, um, we meet every Thursday with our youth pastors and our association. I had no idea what an association was, uh, but that's what we were doing in Idaho. And I come here and I realized, man, the guys are already doing this. And so it has been a breath of fresh air to be able to do things with other churches, to not have to be in competition with other churches, um, and just see kids grow, see kids come to know Jesus. Um, and so that's been a blessing for me as a youth pastor. And so I appreciate what you guys are doing. Uh, one thing I don't appreciate is when we, uh, did the RFP sabbatical time. And we had the greatest episode ever. And you guys come on with John Cooper. What kind of mess is that? We were ready. We had this, we, we, we knew this was going to be the best of the four of the guys that we fill in for. And then I get the notification. Yeah. We just interviewed John Cooper. But what kind of mess? Well, like to just let you know, that wasn't a new interview. That was an older interview. Uh, that we had on our podcast that, um, uh, cause I, I told, I told JC and them, I was like, look, look, I ain't got time, uh, to do. This summer was insane. Yes. For both of us. We, we don't, we don't, we tell, we have the summers off. Like we don't do interviews like for us and, uh, recording editing. I don't do any of that. I do interview people to create a backlog, but that that's easy. That's an hour of my time. When, but do an editing plus an interview. That's another story. So, you know, all, but basically, so that was an old, old episode. I told JC, JC said, I said, here goes a bunch. You can choose from what do you want? He was like, Oh, John Cooper. Let's do that one. I was like, okay. So I just sent him that one to, uh, play on, on their podcast. But, and then we have another one from, uh, from John Cooper that's gonna be releasing soon. That again is an older one, but I have not released it on our podcast. I actually did it for another, uh, uh, another podcast, uh, about a year, year or two ago. So we're releasing an ours, but nice. Yeah. And see, that's one of the things that amazes me about Ryan. He has like this superpower where he can get people that people know on the podcast. And interview them. And I'm like, how in the world did you get in touch with John Cooper, Sean McDowell, or, you know, like, how do you find these people? And you, and I'm over here, like, I got a buddy from college. We can interview. It's, we're good. It's called, it's called learning how to email well, and knowing how to do a lot of research. Those, those two combine this spot, what helps a lot. And the bigger podcast, and here's a side note, just bigger podcast gets, and the more, uh, authors you interview, um, the more connection you make with publicists. So I get a lot of, a lot of publishers pitching, pitching authors to me, uh, more than anything. Yeah. Um, but that's pretty cool. But we, we now have partnerships with a bunch of different publishing companies, uh, that's kind of developed over the years. That's great. John, let's, let's go to number four. Let's skip number three. Let's jump number four for the sake of time. And I'll, just because I like the way the conversation's going. Yeah. Um, let's just go there. How can young, a young person keep biblical principles and values, but still be in the culture? I don't know about you guys, but do you, do you see, it seems like the activist culture is, is insane in the past several years. Um, do you feel like that there's, have you seen young people sort of getting involved in that and, you know, how do they, how do they wrestle with, with being a Christian, having biblical principles, but yet still having this desired, I mean, it's like the in crowd is to, you know, be on fire and protest the next thing that's in the news. Um, yeah, David, I'll start this and I'll let you kind of hash it out too. But, um, man, to answer this question, you can't really pinpoint a direct answer to this question because like, cause when you talk about youth culture and you talk about students, it's every part of the country is a different culture. It's a different, almost a different vibe of youth culture to a point. Now they're more connected. So you see more unity, like unity in the culture at large because of things like a smartphone being, uh, being well-connected, well-informed. Well, I wouldn't say well-informed because a lot of things that they get is bogus crap. That's overly informed. Yeah. But, uh, so there's more unity, but at the same time, there's a lot of differences based on where you're at. You're going to see a little more activism, um, in parts like California, um, and then you would maybe say like rural Virginia. Uh, you'll see, so it is a little bit different in that sense, but, uh, when you answer the question of, uh, can a young person keep biblical principles and values, but still be, be in the culture, the answer is, is obviously yes. Um, but how a student does that, um, again, I'm, I'm going to back up a little bit and say how you create this of keeping biblical principles with being active in culture comes back to us as the church and even further back as parents, actually discipling kids. Um, there, there is a big, uh, a big divide in, again, we're starting to see it a little bit more now. We're starting to activate, uh, act on it and make changes culturally in church culture now. Um, but the last, I would say because youth ministry, youth ministry in itself, it's a pretty much a new phenomenon. Okay. It's only in church culture. It's only, you see it more coming out in the forties, um, a little bit with thing organizations like, like young life and some others, but you really started seeing it come out more in the sixties during the Jesus movement. And when you hit the seventies, it just ran, um, and then became a massive norm in the eighties. So it, so when you, when you look at youth ministry itself, it's a fairly new when it comes to, to typically youth ministry. But what we've noticed in youth ministry is that, uh, each generation keeps, becomes more biblically illiterate, um, also more unreached. And when we use a term on reach, uh, means unchurched, uh, have no avenue in the church or don't even know what, who Jesus is. So we're, we're, we're seeing that more and more culturally. So what, because of that, um, you're seeing more activism, I would say in a negative light from, from church youth culture, from students in the church, you're seeing more of that because they are ignorant to biblical truth. They haven't been discipled by their own, their parents, the church. Um, that's when there was a big movement right now, which I'm excited about, which I'm, uh, to see is there's a big movement, uh, to equipping training and equipping parents and discipling with their kids because they are the primary discipler. Uh, the parents spend more time with their, with their kids. Uh, we, and then the church, me as a youth pastor, I spend a fraction of their week each week with them. They are massively with their parents. So you see, so again, to answer this question, it's not really an answer to it, but I say a good starting point, uh, in church culture at least is to make sure we prioritize discipleship, because there has been a discipleship deficit in our American culture. Um, and we see that, and when it comes to research, we're seeing generationally each year, each generation gets worse and worse, biblical literacy, um, and also, um, just being unreached. So I think it starts there, um, with parents and church prioritizing discipleship, number one. Uh, number two, when, when, and I would say when it comes to kids, um, just basically, uh, if they're, if they are being discipled, they are having in the home, there are all that, but it comes to engaging culture. You can engage culture fine, but engage it in what's going on. Uh, but also do it, um, uh, first Peter three, I believe it's three 15 when it comes to being ready to, uh, give the hope within you, but do it with love and respect and engaging culture that way is the only way that you're going to see a shift because the only thing that can change culture is the gospel. And that's period. It's politics can't, uh, activism can't is, is just the gospel. But approaching culture with the gospel, approaching it with truth and love and respect and really seeing people, the pastor's sin, seeing people the way God does and loving them in that way. But standing up for truth is the only way you're going to see culture shift is through the gospel and that lens. And we've seen, uh, a rise also in the culture. Even you referenced the forties. Um, uh, there's been a huge rise in a group of people in our country that refer to themselves. Well, they don't refer to themselves like this, but the researchers do called religious nuns N O N E S back in the forties. It was like 5% of the population had no religious affiliation. Uh, as of research from, I think 2015, uh, it was like 23%. And if you just look at the millennials, it was over a third. So the, the discipleship part that Ryan's talking about, a lot of what the church's job is going to be is to equip the parents because they're trying to figure out how to disciple their kids, having never been discipled themselves. Um, we have parents of kids in the youth group and in the children's ministries now that don't know what they're doing because no one ever taught them how or taught them terribly. And, um, so they're having to deal with their own generational trauma there. Um, and, uh, even, uh, even just like within the last, uh, probably a couple of weeks to a couple of months, I've seen a rise in dads basically going, um, I don't think I'm doing this right. I need help. And I think that's been a shift because when I was a teenager, I think the attitude was kind of from the parents to the youth pastor was like, here, fix my kid. And now the conversations I've had with parents have been more on the level of, can you help? Uh, not like do it for me, fix the problem, but it's more like, can you help me? I don't, I don't really know. And it amazes me because I still have that mentality of like, Oh, I'm younger than you. How am I going to help? You know, but then I have to remember I was put here for a reason. So helping disciple the dads, um, and, and we know there's research from all over secular, not secular, it doesn't matter. The research is almost a hundred percent agreement that fatherhood is a huge litmus test for, uh, kids and their growth, uh, whether spiritual or just keeping them out of jail, you know, that kind of thing. Um, one of the things that I've tried to encourage our students to do, uh, specifically within my youth group. And then when I talk with other guys, um, when you, when you actually engage the culture, it's not just don't have like a consumption attitude. Cause that's what most of is being thrown at the students is. Um, I, I can't stand most social media because people don't realize this, but Facebook is the only social media platform. That's actually social. Everything else is consumption driven. Um, you can get a sore thumb muscle cause you're just flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, flick, and, and you're just constantly consuming on Facebook. You can do that too, but there's groups you can get in groups with like-minded people and you can share stuff. I'm in several, I think we're in like what, five or six different youth pastor groups on Facebook. And some of those are more entertaining than others. Um, I'll leave that there. Uh, I'm in a couple of like wood carving groups on Facebook and small woodworking shops. Uh, and I see guys make cool stuff all the time and you see them encourage each other. I'm in a couple of dad groups. And so that part's a little more social, but when, when, one of the things I've, I've seen happen online, whether it's in the comment sections or people posting videos is that as soon as something happens or something is said, everybody has an opinion on it. And, and it's, it's not the, I want to learn more curiosity. It's not the asking the question why respectfully. It's just, I have something to say about that. And this is my thoughts. And if you tell me I'm wrong, then how dare you judge me? And we we've come at culture almost more, um, not like violent, but we've come at culture more accusatorily, if that's a word, um, instead of being inquisitive and asking like, why? Like I've encouraged our students. If you watch a movie, ask why they're doing certain things, uh, have the conversation, talk to parents, like have them, you know, go watch a popular movie with your kids and then engage them in conversation about some of the stuff they saw on the screen that bothered them or stuff that came up conceptually that you think is necessary to talk about and engage in the conversation in a respectful and gentle way and not just start with the, well, you're wrong, idiot. Now let's fix your life. That's not going to help. It's, it's coming at it with a spirit of gentleness. Um, because I do think it's still possible to disagree respectfully with people. Um, and I've had a few people in my life that don't believe anything close to what I believe. And the only reason they'll listen is because I've been nice to them when most other people just take their Bible out and whack them in the head. Not literally, but that that's kind of the principle. And, and we're working with a group of people, uh, which I think youth ministry is the greatest ministry in the church anyway, because it's just the frontline stuff, but you're working with an age group and it doesn't matter what generation it is, whether it's millennials, Gen Z, alpha boomers. When, when you're between the ages of 12 and 19, or, you know, bleed out a few years, either way, you're working with an age group that is extremely passionate. Sometimes they display that as apathy, which I think is just, um, passion misdirected, but they're, they're, they're very passionate about something and helping them learn how to channel that energy into something productive rather than destructive and learn how to not just not like suppress, but control their emotions so that they can think through things while still allowing the emotions to happen, but not dictate their life is one of the things that I think is going to help them as they look at things, not just with an inquisitive mentality and not just with a questioning mentality, but does a, uh, does this line up with scripture mentality when they have a conversation at school with a friend and their friend goes, well, you know, it's true for you, but not for me. Well, there's a biblical thought process behind why that's terrible, uh, as a worldview. Um, the, the whole objective truth issue with students, I don't think our, our students think about that stuff on a regular basis. They're not sitting in class wondering, you know, what is objective truth, a thing, or is subjective truth, a thing. No, they're thinking about what YouTube video they want to watch next. Cause the teacher's boring and they're apparently allowed to have their laptops open in school. So, you know, there, there's all of this stuff that's distracting them, um, but helping them learn one, the discipleship part is not just like, we, we don't have to be vague about that. Um, get them in the work. Just go listen to like two episodes ago in ours. All right. Uh, get them in the word, get them memorizing it, get them praying, uh, and then having gospel conversations and not just like witnessing to other people, but talking about the gospel and talking about biblical principle and asking questions about what the Bible says and having, having, uh, having the why conversation. I don't know why in the nineties and the early two thousands, when we were in youth ministry, people shied away from the why question. Cause they thought doubting was a bad thing. Um, I, this Sunday night, I told my students doubt all you want, but chase the question and get the answer. Don't just sit there and wallow in your doubt. Find the answer. If you're not sure, go find the answer. If you don't know how to find the answer, ask somebody for help, but don't just sit there and do nothing and wallow in your doubt because it'll get depressing and it'll get hopeless because you're not willing to do the hard work of finding it out. And we have to model what that hard work looks like for our students. And David, you're going to get me on a rant. I'm just like, absolutely. The social media stuff, like I could go on for the next, just absolutely. But you know, you guys, in fact, Dave, Paul Tripp is actually putting out a book because of it called something about reactivity. And he's like writing on how the gospel can help us when we, the way we react on social media. I was like, first I'm like, really, we need a book about how to interact as Christians on social media. We need a book about everything. I guess we need a book. I guess we need a book, but Paul Tripp, it's going to be phenomenal. Yeah. You know, the funny thing about Paul Tripp is it's the same book. It's every, every one of his books is the exact same book. It's just, just a different theme. Doesn't he say that? Yeah. He's, he actually said that in his latest book I'm reading right now, Do You Believe? And I was like, man, he actually, he recognizes it. He said the quiet part out loud. Yeah. If you want, if you want us to get us a rant on, about social media, just listen to, don't lie. What's the name of that podcast? Speak Truth, Don't Lie. Yeah. Speak Truth, Don't Lie. Listen to that episode and you'll see a little rant. I talk about an issue that I had on Facebook with a youth pastor group. I had a friend the other day that posted something about religious lies that have traumatized us. And I read through them and about half of them were biblically accurate truths, but they were mixed in with a bunch of stuff that I've heard Christians pedal. It's not true. And it is damaging. And so I commented, cause it's a friend I had from high school and I commented and I was like, Hey, you know, I just want you to know that I agree that some of the stuff on this list is really damaging and hurtful, but some of this stuff is actually true. So if you would like to have a conversation about, I'd be more than happy to do that. Just not on social media because it's not an appropriate place for that. And she responded very respectfully. And she's like, I'm not really in a place where I can handle something like that. But if we do see each other again someday, I'd be happy to sit down and talk to you. And so we went back and forth a little bit and, and somebody commented at the bottom was like, this is the most respectful disagreement I've ever heard on social media in my life. Yeah. But, you know, going back to what you guys were saying, I spent many years in youth ministry ministry and, um, and still as a lead pastor, we, we have a, a youth night, uh, where we just do church for the, for the kids. And, um, I've been sort of doing the, the older teens, young adults. And my philosophy sort of changed because not only is youth ministry a relatively new concept, the adolescent teenager is a fairly new concept to human history. And if you look, if you're going biblically, they didn't have any room for that. There's no aspect for it as well. So my philosophy has come to this, like whenever I'm speaking to young people, I want to call them to grow up. I want to call them to maturity because I mean, you think about even the, the celebration of the bar mitzvah, right? What was the bar mitzvah? It was, yes, it was the transition celebration after puberty from a kid to become an adult, to be a man. And other cultures have a similar type of celebration because of that, but it's been changed so much over our culture. And, you know, I'm not advocating for, you know, 13 and 14 year olds to go out and get married. That's not what I'm saying, but I think that we need to call them to more maturity in their thinking and in their behaving. Yeah. Let's just look back. Okay. 1800s and before, okay. There were kids going to college at 13, 14, 15 during that time period. So yeah, I totally agree that, that man, we, not even that far back you're, you're in Morganton, right? Yeah. My grandparents from McDowell County. Yeah. Right. In Marion. Okay. My grandfather and my grandmother got married at 15 and 16 years old and started a family right after that. My wife's grandmother went to college, graduated with a teaching degree, came back and taught. And in her contract, she was not allowed to disclose her age because she was younger than some of her senior high school students. My goodness. Yeah. It's a, it's a new construct that we put in, in, in culture. Um, I don't agree with, but at the same time, it's so ingrained now, um, in our culture, in our parents and church culture, uh, working around that can be difficult in a sense of getting parents to understand, Hey, your kid is, do you don't have to treat your kid like a kid? And what about you can start treating like an adult? Yeah. But isn't that the funny thing about youth ministry? I mean, if you're doing it right, really youth ministry is parent ministry. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Yeah. And then that's the thing. So one of the things our culture has lost, and I think part of it has to do with the Judeo Christian basis that our country got started in. And I'm not, I'm fuzzy on some of the history here. So feel free to fact check me, but we we've kind of lost the rite of passage thing that might be because we looked at and thought, Oh, that's pagan it's out. So it could have been a knee jerk reaction, but we don't have those. We don't, the rites of passage that we have now as an American culture are kind of garbage. Like, uh, you're 16. So you get a license or a homecoming or prom. Give me a break. Um, the rite of passage in my church, uh, and this is my fault and no one knows about it cause I don't talk about it, but the rite of passage in my church is the annual parent meeting where I tell the parents, this is the plan for the year. Your kids in youth group. Now, um, they're not a child. I'm not going to treat them like a child. We're going to cover some pretty deep stuff. So if they still think Santa's real, tell them cause I'm gonna, uh, I take the gloves off. Um, when we cover stuff that's like on the deeper end of like the sexuality issues, I usually give the parents a heads up, but, um, I've never had to go so deep that I have, that I feel the need to ask for permission. I only ever give them a heads up. Like this is coming. The permission part is whether or not you let your kid come to youth group that night. Um, and we're going to hit that in January. Cause there's a whole module we're going through about identity and God's designed for men. God's designed for women. God's designed for marriage. And it's going to punch culture right in the face because, uh, shock, you know, spoiler alert, uh, the Bible hadn't changed. So we already know what the answer is to that. Yeah. Going on a little bit of what, uh, David said to, uh, on my parents, meaning it'd be in the year, I have a piece of paper that says what your students need to know. Um, of course we has LGBTQs on their pornography's on there. Uh, so I got a list of things, but on that list is Christmas. And as I'm not describing what I'm talking about, but I tell the parents that there is a reason why this is here. Uh, just like when you look at a warning sign on a product that's there because someone sued, uh, the company. Don't swallow the batteries. So this is there because I've had this issue with the parents in the past. Yep. Um, so I've said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you guys really telling me that you've had 13 year olds come to youth group who still believe Santa Claus is real? You're Ryan, you want to, you want to do your story or mine? I can do it short. My church right now is still believe that Santa Claus is real. And I know, no. Yeah. Okay. So I'll say this real quick. Okay. Okay. Those of you who are listening will go back and listen to, uh, speak truth. Don't lie. Cause I go into this in way detail. Um, but yeah, so I had, I had an issue where I was basically in a small group setting with the guys. I were talking about Christmas and I mentioned Santa Claus wasn't real and I got parents angry at me. I got called from parents. Uh, one of them was 13 years old. Um, a couple of them were 12. Um, so it's multiple parents. I wasn't just one. It was multiple parents calling me. Uh, and that was, that was the first time. And at that point I've been in ministry full time or, or, or lay leader or part-time for about 10, about a decade at that point. Never dealt with that before. Uh, have the same conversations every year when we go around Christmas time. Um, but yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was a difficult, interesting conversation, but that, that one instant after that, every year after that, it's when I start having a sheet of what your students need to know. Yeah. I'll, I'll give you a quick teaser on mine though. The issue with the Santa for mine, uh, I had a dad wait for an entire year and messaged me on Christmas Eve to ream me out about it in order to expressly ruin my Christmas that year. So if you want the whole story, go listen. Yeah. So we, we, we, we, we've done, it didn't work. I had a great Christmas and, and, and that is, that is a sad thing. So John, he's, he's got some things going on with his church. So we've got to close this up. Great conversation. Uh, you know, biblical principles, values, it lies with the parents. They've got a disciple. They've got to, they've got to train their kids the right way. We have, like you said, a fraction of the amount of time. Um, this morning we, we do a donuts and devotion every morning with our, uh, middle school. And so we do each week, we do eight, seven, six. This week was six graders and we had like 80, some teenagers there. It was a great time. Um, but one of the local youth pastors, he spoke on this verse and it came to my mind. And I think it fit well with the last question, practical ways for our youth to affect the culture. Uh, and in the verse was Matthew 5, 13, whereas you, you are the salt of the earth. If the salt is lost its savior, how can it be any of effect be salty that, that, that thought. Uh, so how can a teenager be salt in a world that is full of destruction, full of, uh, anti-God, anti-everything? How can they be a salt? How can they be something that is providing savor, something that's providing change, something that's providing healing, uh, different aspects of what salt does? Uh, so what are some practical ways that teenagers can do that in the culture that they live in today? Well, the starting point for this entire conversation of, of, of affecting youth, uh, like their peers, um, ultimately starts with them developing a relationship with God, them actually spending time with him, making him priority, being, being, letting the gospel and his word transform the hearts, transform the minds, transform who they, who they are. Um, so I think it starts there. So you had to have a starting point and that would be the starting point. I, uh, again, and again, there's very few, I would say, and it's sad for me to say, say as a student pastor, it very few kids are actually doing that and doing that well, um, because there is an epidemic with, uh, parent discipleship. Um, but that, that's the starting goal there. Um, now what kinds of practical ways, man, you can, there's, to me, the most practical way for youth to affect their culture and that kind of back goes back to what we discussed and what I said earlier, um, man, just love on people, uh, and love them for who they are, have a lens, have a lens, have a lens of seeing people the way God sees them. Um, one thing that, that is in our culture and, and David kind of spoken to this a little bit when we're talking about social media, uh, is that we, we have an, an accusational type of mindset when we look at people, whether it's LGBTQ, this old transgender, which is, which is hard for us as pastors to navigate right now, navigate well, but seeing people in a very condemning way and almost instead of, instead of, uh, loving them, not necessarily loving, uh, looking past their sin, you still need to address and speak truth, but you speak truth and love and respect and loving them who they are, building relationships with them. Um, and I, and that is the number one way that, uh, youth or anybody for that matter is going to be able to affect culture. Uh, cause this is, let's just be, this is be honest and transparent. The church has a negative reputation, um, in our culture, uh, when it comes to interacting with people like LGBTQ. Uh, we have a very negative, uh, negative view. If you go to someone who is in that, uh, in that realm, in that lifestyle, uh, nine out of 10 times, we ask them the question, what do you think about the church? Uh, it's always going to be negative. Um, because a lot of these, a lot of them have had negative experiences with people who claim to be believers in Christ. Um, so I would say that that's the first and foremost is, is to love them, uh, love them well. And, uh, through the relational building relationships, uh, that point, uh, having gospel conversations leading to Christ. Cause the fact is you have to live out Christ in front of culture, uh, in order for culture to change culture and to make an effect in culture. Your feet have to match your mouth and you have to make sure your mouth is right. Um, uh, the, the thing that you hit on Ryan, uh, about getting in the word, uh, that it's the word that's going to transform you. Um, you made me think of Romans 12, one and two. Um, and, and it's impossible to pour from an empty cup. So if you're going to try to affect culture with nothing, um, with no tools in your belt, then you're not going to, you're going to get tossed to and fro like a wave of the sea. Um, like James talks about. So, uh, but I do think it's a little bit sad that one of the best pieces of advice we can give you on how youth can affect their culture is that it's become an evangelistic strategy to be nice. Yeah. Um, we've gotten to that point now where we have to tell Christians be nice about it. Uh, there's a difference between being right and being obnoxiously right. Um, if you're right and you convey it, well, somebody may not like it, but they can potentially acknowledge it. But if you're just a giant turd the whole time, then they're not going to listen. Even if you have convincing beyond convincing evidence, not, not beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you are, if you are absolutely 100% verifiably correct, they don't care. If you're a jerk, they're not going to listen. And so getting to that point where you are showing them the love of Christ, like you mentioned with the LGBTQ community, ask questions, get to know them. They're still human beings made in the image of God. They're just sinners like you are. And their favorite sin is more public right now than yours is. So you both need forgiveness, treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve as a human being. And then as you build that relationship, hopefully you can build the relational equity to start telling them a little bit more uncomfortable truth, um, yet truth nonetheless. And, and looking, the other practical thing I would say is, is show, but also teach the youth how to serve other people because we often think of serving somehow that's also gotten relegated to Sundays, just like worship. Um, worship is not Sunday morning for an hour. Serving is not Sunday morning for an hour or an hour and a half. Cause you know, the volunteers have to get there early. Uh, it's, it's more than just showing up and saying hi to people and passing out bulletins and teaching a Sunday school class. Um, uh, modeling for students that using the phrase I've done my time, someone else can do it is actually, uh, probably more of a sinful attitude than a bad idea. Uh, in the church, um, I've had people that I've asked about considering serving somewhere and they were like, well, I've done my time. I'm like, are you dead? Cause if you're not, you haven't done your time. Also, this isn't a prison. This is, um, the family of God where life eternal gets preached about. So why have you done your time? Uh, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. Sorry. I'm ranting now. Uh, um, but I think it's okay. Back to what I said earlier, helping them figure out how to kindly engage in disagreement. And that can take a while, but we can also tell them that it can take a while. We're allowed to say that. Love it. I think we're going to change the title of the episode to love people and don't be a giant turd. Loving well and living well, loving well and living well, because I think that there's some aspects to say we need to love them and be like them and, and that kind of thing. That's, that's, that's, that's taking one imbalance the other. And then the other ones is like, we need to look differently from the world. And then they end up being self-righteous jerks. And the idea is God wants you to look like Christ, which means like you said, be like Christ in front of them, but love them. I mean, you're to be different. You are to live differently. Yeah. But a lot of that living differently has nothing to do with the way you look on your outer body. It's, it's the way that you treat people. It's the fruit of the spirit, right? All those inner qualities that flow out from the spirit, love, joy, peace, long suffering. You know, they don't see that whenever you're ranting against the way that they live. Yep. You know, they didn't see the fruit of the spirit. They see a self-righteous jerk. Yeah. And there's a good chance that if they know you're a Christian and a part of a church, they already know how you view them as far as the sin is concerned. Now that's not to say some people do actually believe that what they're doing is fine and that there's nothing wrong with it. But I think that's a rare instance, but if they know you're part of a church, there's a good chance they know what your theological view is. And you can get to that. But every conversation you have does not have to be a three-point sermon, gospel presentation, and an invitation while we sing just as I am. That's not how you build relational equity with people. That's how you do a crusade, but that's not how you reach people. And it's okay to take it slowly. Jesus didn't go running after people and preaching the gospel every single time he opened his mouth. He lived differently, about as differently as he can, you know, because he's God, so he doesn't live like us. But he looked at the crowds with compassion, not haughty judgment, knowing that he was the only one there righteous enough to judge. He still chose to treat them with compassion, knowing that, I think Jesus knew that if he was a giant turd, nobody would listen. A perfect example of that is the woman, is John 4, woman at the well, where he never compromised truth and he loved her. You know, that's a perfect example of dealing with the unsaved. And he told some harsh truth in that conversation, too. Absolutely. Absolutely. And one more important aspect is you need to wear hoodies like David's got on right now. Yeah, I can't see what it says, but it is all seven Hobbit meals from Lord of the Rings. Breakfast, seven breakfast, 11 Z, second breakfast, 11 Z's, luncheon, afternoon tea, dinner, supper. See, this is the difference between a Lord of the Rings fan and a not Lord of the Rings fan. His microphone's covering up. I just saw NC's and I knew exactly what it was. My man. I'm a huge Lord of the Rings nerd. There is so much Christian allegory in that story. And the irony is Tolkien hated allegory. And he never intended for it to be. Hey, every good epic comes from scripture. That's all I'm going to say. Right. That's right. All right. Hey, it's great having you guys on here. And I have thoroughly enjoyed this. And don't be a giant turd. That's the takeaway. Amen. Thank you guys for having us. Absolutely. Thanks, Ryan. Thanks, David. Thank you. Yes. And until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFPNetwork.org. To find more podcasts like this one, resources and meetups to encourage you on your journey. Thank you.

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