46. The Clayton & Kelly Peeples Story

I do not mean to be mean, I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. But you know, there's something about that, well, when you get a spiritual man, so when you separate the King James, I have a way that you're like, man, basically, I don't have a great tribulation to the man of Baptist church. I still believe if you have gold a day in hell before I get my talents from a woman, I'm a preacher. The young preachers have two love of God getting pulled off in the Calvinist, and I'll fight it, I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over it, I'll get personal with you. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP Network. That seeks to bring freedom in Christ. From the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of the Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Well, welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. It's exciting to have everyone here and everyone back with us. We have had a great response with our tattoos episode last week. If you didn't get a chance to listen to that, go listen. Go give us a check out. And it's been great to be able to reconnect back with John since we've had our summer sabbatical. And we've got two big things coming up, John. One is this Saturday, a couple of days from now. I'm going to hear Nathan Cravat and Cody Zorn do a little King James only debate here in close to my town. And I'm going to plan on meeting up with a couple of people down there. They got seats saved for me. It's going to be a blast to be down there. Hopefully, I'll be able to hang out with Nathan a little bit, maybe take him to some of our local spots where we grew up at. And then, John, what's coming up in just a couple of weeks? We are going to be in Bourbon, Missouri for the RFP meetup. And we are super excited about that. So we're counting down the days to where we're heading there. James is flying into Kansas City, and I'm supposed to get there and pick him up. So let's just pray I don't have any car trouble. James is stranded in Missouri at the airport. And then, yeah, we'll be there having a blast. So looking forward to that and enjoying all that and recording an episode live out there. So it's going to be a pretty great time. Yeah, I can't wait. And hopefully, you'll meet us and you'll be able to come out there with us. We do have some merch. John is repping one right now. And I'm repping a For Freedom mug that I purchased off of our TeePublic. So if you want to get some merch from us, go over there. It'll be a great time. John, what's our episode today? What we got lined up for us today? Yeah, you know what? Um, ever since the RFP started, one of the things that was emphasized was, and I remember JC even saying this at the beginning days, was like the power of a story. The power of a story. And it is so true because someone's testimony or someone's story is so helpful. And we've seen that not just on the RFP, but in other podcasts as well. Um, I think the church split just did a couple and the RFWP just did one. And, uh, there's so much that not only we can be encouraged by the story, but also learn. And so, uh, we've been doing sort of a series through interviewing other podcast hosts. And this is not necessarily another podcast host, but this is part of the RFP family. What kind of shallow person do you want to become? Recovering from fundamentalism or something. They're everywhere. And I think to myself, well, you were just stupid to begin with. And if there's such a word, you're stupider now. Uh, don't get flubbed up like us. And all you flubbed up people, you come and all flub up together. And, uh, so we got Clayton and Kelly Peebles on today. And, uh, we're going to hear their story and talk about, uh, sort of their journey, uh, from, uh, fundamentalist legalism over to, uh, where God has brought them now. So we're excited about that. I do want to preface before we bring them on, introduce them that, that, uh, technology is one of those things that can make you almost forget you're a Christian. So, uh, we've had some struggles with that. So I apologize if the audio quality is not what it's been at this point. I'm just praying so hard that we don't lose this audio recording at the end that we have it when it's all said and done. But, uh, with that out of the way, uh, Clayton and Kelly guys, thank you so much for being on. Welcome to the for freedom podcast. Thank you for having me. Yes, sir. Clayton and Kelly are from there in Florida. And, uh, and I'm swear James, I don't know if you, I know our, our listeners can't see this, but I swear, I think Clayton is like the, uh, the, the twin of Nathan Cravat here. Yeah. He's also in that. He may be listening, uh, sort of resembles a cold crown over, uh, if you know, cold crown over any of our listeners who's listening. Um, he's got, if Cole had a bigger beard, he's got the same square face that, that, uh, cold crowners got. And, uh, it's pretty great. I love it. Yeah. So are you related to Clayton or, uh, to Nathan Cravat in any way? Well, you know, I am adopted for real. So maybe in the past time, I don't know. We may be onto something, James. There we go. That's awesome. Well, Clayton, how about you and Kelly, tell us a little bit about your beginnings and, you know, where, uh, sort of your introduction into, uh, the fundamentalist world and sort of how things, uh, went for you guys in that environment. Okay. Well, do you want to go first? Cause my story is really long. Okay. So I'm a talker, but so I grew up in a Christian home. My parents, obviously they took me to church and everything and, you know, growing up younger, obviously I was always in, uh, IFB church. Didn't really matter to me when I was younger and I was saved at the age of five. And actually we were talking earlier, uh, John, about how small of a church we go to now, like my wife's grandpa baptized me. Right. So it's that small of an area and that small of a thing going on. And so, you know, we went to another church when I grew up and like I told you, I became a teenager. The church I went to was, I say bigger because we had like 400 people, which seemed big to me, you know, but when we were growing, um, they went through a few youth pastors and finally they got a youth pastor. And like I told you, when we talked on the phone, he was from Hiles Anderson. Right. Which didn't mean anything to me at 12 years old. I didn't even know what that was. I only knew of one college and that was Pensacola only because if anybody grew up homeschooling or anything, they can mail you like thousands of more literature than you can throw away. Right. So I knew about that. And then I knew about one of the college then was Hiles Anderson. Right. And I'll call it, I'll just say the name. It's fine. So anyways, but so growing up, it was okay. But, and my parents obviously were a big, and involved a lot with helping find a youth pastor. And they asked him a question and they said, how strict are you? And he said, I'm way stricter than you'll ever be, which again, didn't mean anything to me at 12. I didn't know what that meant. You know? So, and then soon, and like I told John, I talked to him on the phone, I think a few weeks ago. And I told him, I was like, it really didn't, that didn't mean anything to me in the beginning because when you grew up, when I grew up in it and didn't know no better, and I was never really a question asked in the beginning, I just kind of went along with it. Right. And up until I was a senior in high school is when I really started asking questions that I would kind of get in trouble for asking about stuff, you know? And what really opened my eyes was when I was a senior in high school, I was homeschooled. So I didn't, you know, I didn't really do any school. No, I'm just kidding. But when I was homeschooled, I got all my work done in like two hours. So I just played sports. And then after that, I ended up working at the church because my youth pastor became the pastor. And I'll go back to some other stuff there. And he had me raise money to go to youth conference. All right. And I said, well, I guess this will be cool. And after raising all the money, man, one week there was enough. And it literally opened my eyes to a bunch of stuff. And I started seeing all sorts of crazy stuff, man. When I went up there and, you know, and what's crazy, it was 08 when I went up there for youth conference. And I got to see like the people worship was a big thing that I really saw. Right. It was odd. Like just, you know, I guess you clap for people, but clap for people when they come in, you know, and awkwardly enough, I, you know, I literally got to shake Jack Scott's hand. It's not a proud moment, but I'm just saying like, literally, my youth pastor was so ingrained in that. He took us there. It was bus route and all that stuff. But I started really seeing it, you know, when he, some poor camera guy messed up and he like called him out and degraded him in front of 10,000 teenagers. And I'm like, well, man, you know, poor guy, he's probably volunteering up there. And I started seeing all that stuff. Then all of a sudden I started thinking all this stuff I heard in high school, all these sermons, calling people, all sorts of stuff, kicking over pulpits, throwing stuff, hearing sermons about pants and jeans and shorts. And it just, man, it really started getting me wondering, right? So like I told you, I only heard about two colleges, right? Was Hiles Anderson and Pensacola. And I didn't really want to go to either. I don't have nothing against Pensacola. I just wanted to go somewhere close. So there was a college in Tampa and I'll just say the name, it was called Florida Baptist College, right? And I went there for the, I went there for two years, two and a half years. Okay. The first two years were awesome. I really did enjoy it. Right. The pastor that was there, I think I told John that he actually did practical classes with us. He took us to funeral homes, showed us how to help people pick out stuff and all that, which is awesome. But then, then when he retired, he left, they had a new guy come in and man, it was just hyper, hyper IFB. Like I, I would get in trouble all the time for asking questions. What about this? What about that? You know, what about this? And I did have one where I really did get in trouble. We had a practical class and these two girls were talking about pants and how they were offensive. So I just raised my hand and said, if I came in my sister's jeans the next day, they would probably all know they were girls pants. You know? And then I really got pulled aside for that one. So then I knew I was not going to get anywhere by asking questions. Right. So what was, what was the, what was said to you? Like, what was like, they're like, you're just causing problems. You really need to stop Clayton. That's enough. I said, well, it's true. If I squeezed into my sister's size zero pants, everybody would know because they brought up the verse. Don't wear what pertains unto a man and a woman. And I was like, and I raised my hand and I saw the guy just shake his head when I rose my hand because I was with that. Dude, it was, I got pulled aside many times. Sure. You don't need to be asking that. I said, well, nobody else, everybody else is thinking it. You know, I'll ask. So yeah, it was, you know, holding the office for that 20 years old. And I got taken to the principal's office, you know, so, but after, so with all that going on, I had to do an internship. Right. So when I did my internship, I actually had a church that I kind of wanted to do it at. Right. Which was fine. So I got lined up and actually the pastor that came to be the head of the college, it was the church he came from. Okay. So I said, oh, well, I'm sure they'll approve that. So I lined it up and I did get in trouble for that as well. I didn't get to tell you, John, but I got in trouble for lining up my internship because they wanted to pick where I went. Now I was living at home during all this time as well. Right. Because I had so much going on with ministry and bus route and all. So I had to do my internship and small world, my, not, not my wife's grandpa, but another pastor I grew up with was the pastor that came back from Alabama to be the pastor over in Bushnell. Right. Where I was going to be youth director. So I said, oh, okay. Well, I know him. He's pretty good guy. You know? So I went over there and for like the first three months, it was my internship. And then they called me as youth director, you know, and I volunteered and I'm sure. And from what I heard from your guy's story, volunteering as I did everything, right? Like all of it. Yeah. Yeah. We never aired this episode because we lost half the audio to it, but we did an interview with the preacher's kid, John podcast, John Groves and his, his, his co-host, Elav Levins. And, uh, we're going to try to record something new with them, but he mentioned this, he said, and I loved the way he said, he said, yeah, when you're a preacher's kid or you're growing up IFB, you get voluntold. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Man. Yeah. When I went over there, you know, I helped with the bus route, which was fine. I enjoyed it. Taught junior church, taught teen class. And of course, with the internship, they want you to lead music and all that stuff, which is fine, you know, but, and then take them to camp on top of working, you know, which again, I never asked to be paid. That's fine. I just enjoyed doing it, but it was a lot, you know, and first two years were awesome, bro. Like we were reaching kids. I actually got to where I coached at South Sumter high school and I got to be involved in it's, it's basically FCA. I don't know if they have that. Yeah. Fellowship of Christian athletes. And that dude, I got to, like, I had the basketball team would come to the church and all, it was great. And then all of a sudden they had this other guy come in and wouldn't, you know, where he was from. He was from Hiles. And I'm like, oh boy, this is, this is like a repeat of high school all over again. And it was, man, it. It got, it got bad. Like it just, it was all the time. It was fine. And then it was, I would get pulled aside saying, you need to tell the girls to cover their chest up. You need to tell them to wear higher shirts. You need to tell them not to come in pants, you know? And it was, I talked to John a little bit about this all the time. Right. And I started asking, well, why, well, why, why, why, you know? And then we were part of this group of youth rallies. Right. And the weird part, and you can ask my wife about these youth rallies is they do it all during the school year. And then they like, they just don't even do it during the summer. So they just do it for like a few months during the school year. And I got pulled aside by my pastor at the time. And he's like, you know, our youth group is the most liberal youth group in this group. I said, well, according to who, you know, I, who's saying that? He's like, well, they just are. You just, just know they are. We need to be more classy and all this stuff. I'm like, wow. So it turned into, you know, I hate to say a fight, but it really kind of was for the kids, you know? And like I told John, I stayed there four years and probably the last year I stayed was for the kids. And from what I've heard from, from your guys' testimony, it's kind of had the same thing. I, I probably should have left earlier, you know? And to be honest, me and the pastor left on good terms, but I know after I had left, they went through like five other associate pastors and then the pastor retired and that was it. So, you know, it went really well. It just, and with all that going on, I started really questioning things and asking because like I told John, I replicated everything I heard in youth group for the first three months and it was awful. It did not work. Teaching all the lessons I heard was not good for mostly public school kids. Cause I grew up with a bunch of Christian school kids that really didn't have a choice whether they went or not. So I started trying to teach that way to public school kids and it did not work, you know? So I found I had to just change my style of teaching to these kids, you know, they didn't want to hear stories. They just wanted to get straight to the point and tell them what I'm trying to tell them, you know? And, and I even, and a few other things I don't want to, I could ramble on for hours about this. Right. But a few other things was, is when I started being with the kids at fellowship of Christian athletes, I had shirts made like polo shirts. Right. And I started wearing those because I figured, you know, the kids are going to talk to me more than if I walk in there. I'm not trying to call other religions looking like a Mormon. I'm not trying to be mean, but you know, wear a white shirt and a black tie and walk in either look like a CPS agent or a Mormon. So, you know, so I started wearing that and I got pulled, I got in big trouble for that. You know, we're trying to set a good example for the kids and you're walking in and t-shirt with this. Okay. So you got, you got in trouble just because it was a polo. Yeah. And it wasn't a nice button up shirt and everything. And, oh yeah. Yeah. It had the church name. Oh, I got. So then, and I got told you, remember I had some people donate money to make t-shirts for the teens. So I let the teens pick them out. I said, I'm no designer. So I took one of the kids. I said, you pick them out. I got in trouble for that. You shouldn't have bought those shirts. You know, why did you let them pick that gaudy logo out? I said, you know, it was at the verse on there and everything. Oh yeah. No big trouble for that. I got pulled aside. And then one other time we had a meeting where we, we would like, and Bushnell is a very small town. When I say small town, I mean like small town. Right. So they had like this, this big parade for the, you know, for fall festival parade. And it was like a big thing. So we would pass out waters and tracks, you know, and look, man, the way I see it, they know our church has given out waters. So people would come every year to that. And all of a sudden they said, we're not going to do waters no more. We're doing these surveys. I said, oh, okay. And of course we know where the surveys led. That's fine. But he kind of wanted people to like follow people around, you know, here, just follow the survey. I'll walk with you. And my big mouth, I said, well, that's not going to work. It's really not going to work. It's going to be a bad idea. And I really didn't get invited to staff meetings after that. I just kind of got told what was going on. I'm serious. You know, and I don't want to say all of it wasn't awful, right? We've got to reach a lot of teens and got to make a difference through God in their lives. But it just, every week I was having a sit down with him and we were talking and he was really pressuring me on things. You need to teach about dress code. You need to teach about this. You don't need to have so many games and youth group. And it was just, it was every single week and it got tiring, you know? I mean, to be honest, it gets aggravating after a while arguing over and over and over, you know? And I think probably the big one is he was out of town one time and they asked an associate past the other associate to speak last minute, which was fine. So I said, here's what I'll do. I'll just do teen class in big church, big church. I'm really ISB if I call it big church. Yes, you are. Come on. Love it. Yeah. So I said, I'll just do teen class in big church. Right. And I did the same thing. I had the slides, I had the songs and everything. And I got, I got big pulled aside for that. You know? Well, I heard there was just a bunch of games and only like a 20 minute sermon and you're focusing on, oh, it was just, and like I told John, I got in trouble for buying pizza for the kids every week. Me and him talked on the phone and it was why. That's the only reason they were coming in. Yeah. He said, that's the only reason they're coming in. I said, well, if one gets saved, is it worth a thousand? I don't know. Well, that's the point, you know? And I said, well, so we kind of talked and I decided, you know, I'll just, you know, I gave him a month and then I, you know, I went, uh, I go now with my wife and we go to, uh, and this was all before we were married, by the way. I think my wife would have beat someone up if she would have known all this. Cause I, I kept it inside, man. I didn't really tell my parents, you know, I was living at home and working and stuff, but I didn't tell them. I didn't tell nobody. I just kind of internalized it. And eventually I couldn't hold it no more. And I let it slip to my dad one time, you know, and he's like, what, you know? And I'm like, I got it, you know? So that's kind of, you said this was an internship. Did the internship eventually lead into the same church that you were? Is that what it was? Yes. Yeah. Cause after three months, he's like, well, do you just want to stay? I said, well, sure. I, you know, I enjoy what I'm doing. I've already built up relationship with these kids. So, but in the midst of all that, like I told you, me and this other youth pastor, we would just talk and ask and start to wonder, why is it that we do this? Why is it that we do this? Why is it this? And, you know, I just always wondered what decisions we made and why we made them, you know? And then when I, then what really made me start to realize how little I studied in the past for lessons, right? Cause I, you know, I could, man, I've heard, I'm sure probably not as many IFB sermons as you guys have, but man, I can come up with all sorts of topics to talk about, you know, but when I really started studying it and figuring out, then you start looking and finding verses, you're like, oh, that's a pretty shallow subject for me to teach. Cause I know nothing about that, you know? And like, you feel bad for the stuff I said in the beginning. Cause I'm like, well, I had no basis for that. I just kind of said what was told to me and what I'd heard at conferences and stuff. And that made me really start studying and seeing what really matters. And I found out that a lot of it is just fluff. I don't know what better way to put it is just fluff and people holler an amen. And then what, you know? So, and then, and like I said, and that made me, that also made me start asking what's the big deal with KGB only stuff, you know? Now we go to a church now that is KGB only. And like I told John, I, we, we, we love our pastor. Cause he doesn't, he doesn't purposely beat up on stuff like that, you know, for no reason. He doesn't get up there and just rant. He teaches the Bible, which we really enjoy, you know? And it's just, but I started asking, wonder why it's KGB only. And of course you can imagine when I started asking, if I ever asked something like that, oh man, they started really looking at you weird. Like, whoa, why are you asking that? You know, you should just understand that it's, you know, and I hate to say I got in trouble, but I really did, man. I'm telling you, I didn't, in the beginning, like I told John on the phone from, I learned, I did learn a lot from my youth pastor. I'm not trying to say everything was bad, you know, through God, I learned stuff, but I also met a lot of people and I got to preach at a lot of places because of that. And that all goes away when you start talking and asking and questioning things and all that. And that's, so. It makes, it's interesting because this is the, your testimony is really, if somebody has listened to the latest 26 letters podcast episode, it was about questions. It was Q for questions. And it was like really just sort of pointing out this problem that we have with allowing questions. And they really dove into the subject of what is questions and what is being divisive, you know, and questioning and that type of thing, which they did a great job at. But James made this statement several episodes ago when I, before he even was actually the host. And it, to me, it goes along the line because if you're actually teaching people, teaching demands questions, right? Because if you're, if you're learning something, that process of learning has your mind start. Well, that, that new concept or that new truth will bring up questions for you to be able to clarify what it is. But indoctrination refuses to entertain questions. And James said like many, many episodes ago, he said, we weren't, he was telling him his story. He says, we weren't taught we were indoctrinated. And so whenever you were in, whenever you have indoctrination going on, questions aren't allowed. When teaching is happening, questions are invited. And I think that your testimony is like fits perfectly with that, with all of that that's been happening lately. Me and Kelly, you know, if, if we fill in to teach the teams, or even when I taught at Providence, I would always ask you, I would always ask, but talk back during the lesson. I want to know what you guys think. Question now, you know, cause I was taught you just sit there and listen, you know, get, get beat up during the lesson and just go on. You want to know what's funny? My first year as a youth pastor actually was not in an IFB church. I went to a Southern Baptist church and, and, and I thought like, I ended up going back into the IFB because of the strange scenario. I didn't really know what I believed anyways, but I was sort of, I had, I identified with what you were saying because I was, grew up, went to a Christian school, went to a Bible college that was all Christian school students. And then my first youth pastor is, I've got about 30 public school kids. And so I'm sitting there thinking, what am I going to teach them that is actually relevant that they want to hear? And I had no idea where to go with it. And so I just said, all right, well, let me ask them. So I had them come in and I gave them all pens and paper and I said, all right, I want you all to write down at least two, two questions and two questions of why we've always done something, what you've always heard was either right or wrong, something that you're concerned about that is relevant to you about church, about life, about Christianity. And just right. And so I had them all come in. I had, I had at least 30 questions, but I had several questions like over and over and over again. So the most common question that I got from teenagers that are going through the public school is what's wrong with drinking, you know, because of peer pressure in high school. The second most popular question I got was if marijuana, and this was the way it was one, one of it was, was, was phrased for me, if, if marijuana comes from the ground, then why is it wrong to use it? You know, because these kids are getting tempted at school and this is the, where their pressure is. And it gave me opportunities to cover, like do my own digging and cover, like we spent several months going through those questions and they were engaged. So check this out. A year later, I go to the Christian school and I'm at a different ministry, the IFB ministry with a bunch of Christian school kids. And I'm not knocking them. I'm just, it just connected with me with what you were saying, this sort of little piece. And I was like, well, let me try the same thing because that was so beneficial there. It was, I got nothing. Really? They had no idea what to ask. Yeah. Because the biggest thing that they were having problems with is, is, you know, bullying because they didn't know how to treat each other. I mean, it was, they really didn't have any, any, hardly any questions whatsoever because they, you know, that, that environment is never giving you the opportunity to think. But they knew how to treat each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They had questions. It was just a matter of what questions am I allowed to ask? Oh, that's good. It comes back to bite me in the butt if I ask this question. Yeah. Well, Kelly, why don't you tell us, take a minute and tell us a little bit about your background. Okay. I'm not, I don't have quite as much experience in the toxic IFB realm as my husband does. I was born into the IFB church. My dad was military. We were in, he was in the Navy. So we did travel a lot, been all over the world. So, but no matter where we moved, my parents made sure to put us in a good church. And I, as far as I can remember, I can say they were all good churches. However, when I got into college, that's when my kind of eyes, I would say my eyes were open. I went to Pensacola for my freshman year. And I think that is where I would say I was kind of just shocked because I went from a very small Christian school. I was one of three, my graduating class is the only girl in my graduating class to a college where I was one of maybe five or 6,000 students. I felt like I was drowning. I was lonely. I was depressed. I was not doing well academically, which was new for me. And the rules, the rules were, oh, it was overwhelming. I don't know how anybody could remember the rules. And no matter where you did, every time you turned around, you were doing something wrong. I mean, some, just to name a few women were not allowed to walk around with wet hair because that would give men inappropriate thoughts. You could not wear Christian shirts that were not sold from their bookstore. They had, I mean, even if I wore a t-shirt that had a verse on it, it wasn't from their bookstore. So it was wrong. So I've been saying this because I know that this was a big deal. So if you come in like wearing a Bob Jones t-shirt, that would be. I say that because I know Bob Jones was like the hated enemy there. You'd be on the train straight downtown, buddy. You'd just be out of there. That's funny. But yeah, that's just kind of where I just, I started to just be like, I think it was kind of just frustrating for me because I was like, okay, hold on. I'm an adult now. Am I wrong? I'm 18. I graduated high school. I'm now learning how to be an adult. I'm learning how to build up to a career. And yet I'm being, I'm still being treated like a child. And at the same time, I'm like, however, I feel ignorant to certain things because I wasn't trained. And this is when my eyes are starting to be open where like, I couldn't answer questions. If somebody came to me off the street and asked me, well, why do you believe this? I honestly wouldn't be able to answer. And that could be just as much my fault as it is those who trained me. I could have learned myself, but that's when I started to realize, I don't think I was trained as well as I could have been. And then combating that, like I said, with the rules, not feeling like I'm being treated like an adult. I just, after my year at PCC, I was like, I'm done. I don't want to come back. I don't feel welcome here. And that, again, that may be because the campus was so large. It's not necessarily like when I went to my little high school where the teachers were also friends and church members that I went with. So after a year at PCC, I was just like, I'm going to go home. And I have no intention of going back to school. But my parents told me and they insisted that I do have to have a college degree, especially if I want to get married. So I said, okay. That was a prerequisite to get married is having a four-year college degree. Yeah. I didn't know if you knew that women and out there ladies. Oh, yeah. Make sure you get to where you missed on the MRS degree completely. And it's actually better if it's an elementary education. Oh, yeah. Amen. Amen. So I went home and I was like, okay, maybe I'll just do kind of like online schooling. And my brother mentioned that he was going to go crown, tour crown. So I was like, okay, I'll go along. You know, I don't really think I'll go, but, you know, I'll just go along for the trip. I mean, we're going to Tennessee. So I went along and I'm going to try and say this as nicely as I can. When they gave us a little bit of a tour in Pastor Sexton's office, that was the one and only time I ever saw Pastor Sexton's office. They kind of like gave you what little bits of freedom you would have. At PCC, you were forbidden from having any social media. So they like to, you know, drop that in. Like you can have social media, you can use your phone, you can have headphones. And so all these little bits of freedom, I'm like, wait a second, I get treated like an adult here. So they caught me. That was a good trap. They caught me. And I signed up. I was like, absolutely, I can do this. I can suffer three years here. I suffered for three years. I'll just put it that way. I enjoyed most of my classes. I did not enjoy the church. And that's just me personally. Again, I think it may have been with the, I was used to a small church. So I felt again, like I was drowning in an auditorium full of people who just didn't care that I was there. I was not one of the family. If anything, I was seen as a nursery worker. And that's just kind of how I felt in that environment. And again, the rules. I just, I felt like I was being treated like a child. And I wanted to be taught. What am I going to do when you hand me that degree? What am I going to do next? How am I going to find a church if I don't go back home? How am I going to learn how to teach children, if I'm going to be in education, the basics of the Bible? And like I said, most of my classes I enjoyed. I do feel like a lot of my education courses, I didn't agree with the teachers on some of their methods. And so I didn't feel like I was getting the education I deserved. So this whole time, I'm struggling with everything I understood and didn't know. And to throw it in, I started to doubt my salvation. I was struggling. I had been saved at the age of, I'm going to guess, five or six. I don't remember exactly. I do remember it was through my grandpa. He led me to the Lord. It was in his bedroom. My grandpa at that time was my pastor. And so I knew when and who. I just didn't remember. I mean, I knew where and who. I just couldn't remember the when. But that was kind of, I knew that's when I got saved. But I will say I doubted. I doubted for years. And even every once in a while, I say the devil still tries to get me. He still tries to make me doubt, especially now with everything we're going through with. Are we going to leave this? Because we technically still do attend a Baptist church. Where will we go next? What will we do? Because if we do ever leave our church, it's not going to be easy. Because that's the church I've pretty much been raised in. I've been going there for over 20 years. My grandfather was the pastor. My youth pastor is now the pastor. All of my family, all of his family attends there. That's where we were married. That's where my children were dedicated to the Lord. It's not going to be an easy departure. But, you know, the Lord is really working in our hearts about what do we want for our children. I don't want my children raised in the toxic environment that we were put in. I don't want my children to feel like they have to dress a certain way to please anybody in the church. I don't want them to feel like they are limited to a certain hymn book because that's what's expected of them. I want my children to have that understanding. It's more about the relationship with Jesus Christ than the religion that they're in. I think I had that moment that sparked the fire that I wanted to focus more on my relationship with Jesus Christ than the religion that I was in when I worked as a counselor for a summer camp. I worked two years for a camp up in Indiana. And that first summer, it was like a light bulb went off. And I was just like, I need to be focusing more on my relationship with Jesus Christ than I do my concern with whether or not I'm staying within the confinements of the religion that I was raised in. And so from there, I kind of I started looking into getting answers to those questions that I had. And just recently is when I came across Sam and David's podcast because I went to college with them. So I knew them. And so my sister said, hey, have you heard Sam and David are doing this podcast? And so I said, no, and I'm interested. So I started listening to it. And I think I listened to every single episode they had available in one day. And that's when it kind of like started rolling. And I started I found the other podcast and I started listening to all those episodes. And for the first time, I felt like I could take a breath and be like, I'm not alone. There's other people who are experiencing what we are experiencing. And they're feeling like we need these answers. This isn't enough. We're not going to be silent anymore. We're not going to let past generations ridicule us because we have questions. And I kindly felt that that village that we needed. So I'm kind of starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I'm so thankful for it. Yeah, no, that was great. That was great. And the interesting thing that you said was about your children. And it got me to thinking, you know, that is a big deal. I think it's a big deal for all of us that are raising kids. Because if you really think about how some of these things that were ingrained in us, they don't die quick deaths. You know, it's hard to let go of some of these things that affect you. And I preached, we're recording this on a Sunday. I just got through preaching a message at our church on what the Bible says about self-image. And this has quite a bit of an effect of how you think of, you know, what are people going to think of me? The guilt. Yeah, with all of these aspects of, you know, like you said, what hymn book am I using? How am I dressing? How am I looking? And these are all categories that are just like toxic to your sanctification, your spiritual growth. And so is that a big deal that you are concerned about? Any of us are concerned about our children being exposed to that? I think yes. I think it's a huge deal. So, you know, Kelly, you just was able to mention a little bit about, you know, her coming that. Clayton, why don't you talk a little bit about, unless James has something he wanted to add, but why don't you talk a little bit about sort of you finding out about the RFP community and that kind of thing of how that's helped you all? So I, so when Kelly told me about the 26 letters podcast, we went, we went on vacation last. This past February. This past February. And she's like, we need to listen to some of the RFP network. And dude, like, so what the funny part is when she heard the intro, she's like, I've never heard that stuff. I said, I grew up here in that garbage, like all the time. Right. Like I heard, man, one time I remember my youth pastor taught in big church. Right. Okay. So he taught in big church one day and he had me in the back play. Now that's what I call Christian music VCR tape because I ran the sound and it was Avalon. Right. So, you know, so I played it and he's like, oh, that guy's a queer. And literally I remember it. And I'm like, you know, so it was the same stuff. And then I started listening to it. And then a big one for me, I'll be honest, was covering the KJV stuff was a really big one. And I enjoyed the RFP one. And I listened to your guys one. And I was like, I literally was made to read the Trail of Blood and Stinking College. And I was told that it was like, that's it. It's gospel truth, baby. Yeah. But anytime you ask, they're like, oh, just read it. You just know it's true. And then I'm like, well, wait, wait, wait, time out. You know? And I remember my dad growing up always had this question and nobody could ever answer. My dad was a decent grown up. He always said, if the King James Version is the only version, then I guess the Spanish people are out of luck because the Spanish KJV Bible is not the same. And then I'll tell you, if you thought I got in trouble at college before, when I found out about the italicized words, it was over, buddy. I started asking all the time. And they're like, that's enough, Clayton. I said, well, what's a jot or a tittle? Is it an italicized word? I guess that's not, you know. So I just started asking. But, dude, the RFP network group was really a good one just to hear. And you know what's crazy is, like I was telling my wife, one thing that was big for me, and I grew up listening. I'm sure you've heard of Dr. Therese Kidd, right? I grew up listening to him because he came to a church in our county. I heard him every year, buddy. We went. And when I heard him get on there and talk, and he even saw the deranged stuff in there, you know. Now, obviously, I see differently than he does on a lot of things. But it was just, I was like, wow. Even he sees things differently than I thought, you know, or than I was brought up. And I started just, and then I know she also went to college with Will from the church split. And I started listening to a lot of his stuff, which I really, really enjoyed, man. And he goes really, really deep into theology on it, you know, with getting in there. And I've just listened to that. And then it just started making me ask, you know. And I'll tell you one thing. And like when we were on our way back from Tennessee, we were asking about Bible versions, right? And I don't think Kelly might be asking. If not, she'll beat me up later. You can edit it out. But she's like, is it wrong of me to read the NASB? The CSB. The CSB. I said, I think so. Why would it be wrong? And like I told John, you feel guilty even opening another version because you act like you're just going to fight. You're going to get smoke, buddy. You're just opening it. And I said, well, no, I've been reading the ESV. And like I read through the Gospels in the ESV. And it's the first time like you actually get a lot out of it reading it, you know, because it's easier to read. And just that just kind of started making you wonder, you know, well, you know. But the podcast was a big help for me to know because I like hearing both sides. I don't just like hearing one side or the other side. I want to hear both sides. And they brought both sides out, you know, and I enjoyed. And then I got heard about your guys' podcast when you hosted the RFP. And then I really enjoyed the history of the IFP. It was so interesting to me. So I've heard all those names. I've heard those names praised until everything, you know. And then you start hearing stories and you're like, come on. And then it really hit home when you started covering the Miles Anderson stuff because literally I had Jack Scott's dating book, man. Like that was given to me by my youth pastor, you know. And I'm like, with a purpose. Absolutely. Yeah. Me and my wife went through that too when we were in college. How many ways to say I love you without actually saying it? You know, and it's just crazy that we're the. And I never really had that experience. I honestly didn't know about Miles Anderson until I met him. I mean, I mean, I've heard it, but I didn't know about Miles Anderson until I met him. Um, whereas, you know, growing up every year, my pastor's wife would take us to a purity conference. And that's where I think I probably got that toxic purity culture was because of how they just instill in you all these awful things that you do and how you're taught, how you're taught. It just, it affects me even to this day. I have to stop myself and say, no, that's not, it's not okay that you were taught that. Um, and it's just, yeah, it's like you said, I'm almost, I have to rewire my brain because everything that I was taught and the guilt, I don't know if the guilt will ever go away. I don't know if I'll ever be able to completely teach myself to think a different way. Um, but yeah, you're right. I had to just kind of have to rewire and teach and those things that I was taught just like, I think it's Eric, Eric Spresinski. I think he's the one that said it, uh, kicking at those floorboards and seeing what sticks and what doesn't and just, you know, what's real and what's not. Do you guys think that going through this sort of process has brought you guys closer together as a couple, you know, being able to get on the same page, articulating some of these things that you really have categories for before? I think so because man, like growing up, you just, man, I even saw like, you know, well, you just do your ministry together and brother, that'll bring you closer to God. You know, do your duty ministry, ministry and money or start with them. I'm just kidding. But, you know, like just work yourself to death in the church and your, your marriage will just work out. And I think one example, my parents never did that. You know, now they had, they're involved in the business and stuff, but I always remember them taking us, taking time for us, taking time, you know, and. We, we do a lot of ministries in our church, but we eventually had to draw a line and say, you know, we do, we do quite a bit. We both work sound room. We both do junior church. I help in the nursery. He does security. We used to do bus ministry, but my brother-in-law and my sister have taken that over. And I kind of had to just, we had to draw a line and say, you know, we could do more. We could do a lot of other ministries, but we also have to focus on our marriage and our family and kind of had to get over that whole guilt of, well, we're also not doing these other ministries. And just remind ourselves, well, you know, our family should be most important. Our marriage should be most important. And if we're doing every ministry the church offers and not focusing on that, then what's it for? Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to somebody this week and they were talking about all these things that their church is doing. And I pastor like a church of 50 people. And, you know, I have all these, like, I would love to start this ministry, this ministry, this ministry, but it doesn't happen. And I said, we can't do it. I said, one of the things that helped me was I heard somebody say this statement that God's advancement of his kingdom is not dependent on you. Mm-hmm. He can accomplish it with or without you. And because you're not doing, you're not working 90 hours a week in the ministry, it doesn't mean his kingdom is going to come crashing to a stop because of it. And something else that I did have to, I had to get over, I'll say, whenever I went over to be youth director is numbers. Numbers were a big one, buddy. Like, we did this one where we're going to knock 5,000 doors, see 1,000 people saved. And it's like, we did that in a year, I guess. But then I would worry, well, I only got 10 kids here tonight. Well, it don't matter. I can have one kid, you know, and that was a big one that I had to really get over, the numbers. It's an easy thing to fall in, man, you know, because that's all they would talk about in youth. I was like, wow, I got 50 in the youth group. I'm like, oh, okay, you know. But it's just, it's like a comparison game you end up in, you know, if you're not careful, stuff like that. I didn't mean to get off subject, but I do feel it's definitely brought us closer. And. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. No, yeah, you're good. I just had a couple of questions. John is still on some of my questions right now. I write as you talk. And so I write down things. And John, you know, he just, he's thinking like we are, which is good. So are you guys still on staff now? Or you said you stepped, you're at your wife's church or where y'all grew up at? Is that. Yeah. Yeah. That's where we're at now. And we just, we're not really on staff. We just volunteer. So we just, I just teach junior church. And, and then, like I say, my wife does the sound and the security scheduling and stuff. So we just kind of volunteer right now. Just. Gotcha. So you said you've struggled a little bit as far as trying to, I'm going to use the term stepping away from the IFB. Not, not quite left it, but stepping away. And, and what has been the biggest, as far as takeaway for you guys? I know we've sort of shared our story as far as studying and looking through things. But what would be the one big takeaway that you would say, you know, this is really, once I've heard this or saw this, you know, that's where I really said, man, I've got to start stepping away. Honestly, I think for me, it would have to be seeing the hypocrisy. I know it's going to happen in any religion. But I don't know if it's just me because of my eyes were open when I started listening to Eric's podcast. But you kind of see what gets swept under the rug. And while over here, we're also talking about the evil in Hollywood and the world and how evil they are. But we're just going to not talk about what's going on back here. And it just seems like, I don't know, maybe that's a little bit of the hypocrisy you see, but as well as the hypocrisy of do what I say, not what I do. And so I kind of think that's what's made me start to realize I want to step back and start focusing again on my relationship and not the religion because it just became too much of I want to appease people. I want to, you know, earn those crowns and jewels. And I just if that's my focus, then if I'm worried more about the things I'm doing on this earth to earn those crowns and jewels, it's not as much as I want to do it, not because I'm told to do it. Yeah. As I listen to Ben Shapiro almost every day, and he uses the statement, rules for thee, but not for me. And I think that is so many times. And even on the latest RFP with the church split with Will, he made that statement when he was going through the rule books. You know, it's okay for the president of the college to have social media, Bill Reeves, but you can't have social media. It's against the rules because you're not. There's a cult in our town called the 12 tribes. They run what's called the Yellow Deli. And when you join this cult, you have to give up all technology, driving, everything. And it's a commune. It's a you live off the land. You live off each other. There's a community meal. You don't even make your own meal. But one of the things that's interesting is you can't have a cell phone. But as you grow in your religion, as they can trust you more, then you can get a cell phone. And so the leader of this cult has like a jet and cell phone, all these things that you can't have because you're not spiritual enough, but I can have. So, Clayton, what about you? What do you think would be your biggest takeaway as you've with because you've been on staff through all this. So so for your side of it, it's been a little bit different than Kelly's. And I can hear that in your testimony. Yeah. What do you say? You know, not recently going back. What really made me seriously question a lot of things and start really start studying is when I when I graduated high school, you know, and I'm sure we've all heard the lessons on the church up the road is just a party church, whatever. Right. So I heard that. And so I had the opportunity to go to a youth rally of sorts and they had a worship band there. Right. And of course, my mind, I'm like, oh, great. Here we go. And also I started listening to music. I said, well, dad gone. That's really good words. You know, that's great music. And then that led me on to doing a really question and asking. But really what really pushed it was at the end when I was over there on staff at that church. When the focus became on what these kids are wearing, not who's there, because it got brought up to me that we need to bring core kids on Wednesday night and we can do outreach on Sundays. And. Most of the outreach kids that I would pick up from the public school, you know, we pick up like 15, 20 kids in the public school. I mean, I'm just going to call it like I see it. They weren't good white church kids. I'm, you know, I'm not trying to be like that, but it's what it was. And. But they were great kids and I just wanted to learn and it got brought. Well, you know, I'm afraid my kids are going to get influenced wrong on my daughter. And I said, well, that's when it really it really opened my eyes. And that's when it kind of I said, this is insane. You know, the whole goal is to win anybody. I don't care who comes to church, you know, and I'd rather. They wanted that picture perfect. Yeah. The look. How it appeared. Yeah. And my statement was always I'd rather be at church and pants and at home in a skirt. You know, it doesn't matter to me. I, you know, so I know it's a petty thing. That's really what kind of made me start looking and thinking and studying. Why are we doing what we're doing? Because the whole goal is to win others to Christ, not to change them. You know, so. They wanted their kids to be around. Everybody looked like Jesus with the white skin and the blue eyes and the long hair. And the neatly trimmed beard that all of his disciples were Middle Eastern. Yeah. But Jesus, he was that white white face guy. So no beard. Remember, because I got in trouble for that. And I'll tell you one more story because I go on. When I was when I graduated high school, I started to grow a beard. And when I at my church growing up for my youth pastor who was from Hiles, they they did this. They like mimic the Hiles service. They had this old guy that would read the scripture before my youth pastor is now a pastor preacher. So that guy was out and it turned into me reading the scripture. So I started to grow goatees like you grow goatee. You can't sit on the platform. I said, OK. They had a deacons meeting and I kid you not. And they they said, what do you think about Clayton's facial hair? Is it OK if he sits on the platform? I said, well, I just don't want to sit up there. That's how it's going to be. You know, so I literally got told not sit on the platform because I grew a goatee. So, yeah, I just. That's good. John, what other questions do you have? I'll have one other thing at the very end. No, I think I think that sounds I think that a lot's been said and I think that from both of them is, you know, stuff has been shared that I think will definitely be helpful and encouraging to to somebody listening to this. I mean, interesting enough, God has brought both of you guys on your journey together, but given you very different experiences in that same realm. That is just it was just really fascinating listening to how your two stories came together at the end. So that was I thank you guys for being on today and taking the time to do this. Absolutely. We're glad to do it, man. And like I say, if it can help even one person to realize it's not wrong to question, it's not wrong to ask, you know, you're not going to get in trouble or sent to the office for asking. Just ask, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah. So so where can our listeners, if they want to get a hold of you or you guys on social media in any way? And then any closing comments that you want to give before we close the showdown? Yeah, I'm on Facebook. I'm not giving my phone. I get enough calls for work. I'm not brave as one of you gave out your phone number on the podcast. James. Yeah, that's right. I don't care. People can call me, whatever. My phone number's everywhere. James says, no, James is like the jokes on him. I don't even go pick up my phone. Yeah. No, believe it or not, I do pick up my phone for every. If I'm by my phone, I pick it up for every single call, whether it's a telemarketer or not. I pick it up. So if you're from California and you want to call me, by all means, go back and find the episode by number. Give me a call. Shoot me a text. But I do respond or pick up for every person. So nice. But no, I mean, we appreciate you guys having us. And like I say, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it has brought us definitely closer to talk more about not just, you know, you're going to wear that. Or is it okay if I wear this or just stupid stuff like that. Actual biblical things and verses and in-depth talk. That's, that's, that's what's done a lot of that for us. That's great. James, you got any final comments? And I'm just glad you guys came on the show and I was willing to share your story. I know we've got a couple that were, have reached out to me that we're going to try to hit up at the meetup and try to get some of your testimonies, little quick 10 minute things. And I'm going to bring some recording stuff. And so I appreciate you guys taking your time out of your schedule to come on here. It'll be beneficial. I know, Will, it's helped me out just as I've been writing down stuff that you guys said. It's very, very beneficial. And so I do appreciate that. But John? Yeah. Thanks everybody for listening today. Thank you, Clayton and Kelly, for taking time to be on here. And, and we want to remind you guys to, if you haven't booked, it's a time's getting close. Head on to RFPNetwork.org and sign up for the meetup in Bourbon, Missouri. And you can also check out the other podcasts. Some of those that were mentioned today in this episode and, and check out that. And we thank you so much for listening and taking the time to hear this great story from this couple here, Clayton and Kelly. And I guess that's it for today. Until next time, to God. Not the pastor. Be the glory. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFPNetwork.org. To find more podcasts like this one, resources, and meetups to encourage you on your journey. Thank you. Thank you.

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