15. Repentance in Abusers: An Interview w/ Ben Marshall

This is the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now, here's your host, John Holyfield. Hey guys, welcome to For Freedom Podcast. This is your host, John Holyfield, and I'm excited about today's episode. I'm going to be wrapping up a little series that I've been doing on the nature of abuse. This does not mean that we're going to be finished with talking about that subject, but just wanted to do a series of episodes introducing the subject and talking about some important themes. And in today's episode, I get the chance to interview Ben Marshall on the subject of repentance and abuse or repentance in pedophilia. Ben Marshall just finished his, we talk about it in the episode, in the interview, that he just finished his doctoral thesis on the gospel and pedophilia. And Ben Marshall is the lead counseling pastor at Canyon Hills Community Church in Bothell, Washington. He has his master's degree from Master's University. He's a certified ACBC counselor, also a fellow with the ACBC. The ACBC is the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. And Ben is also, more importantly, Ben has also been married for 22 years to his wife, Corey. They have seven kids ranging from ages 19 to 1. And he's a devoted family man. And he has done some fascinating work in this area of abuse. Now, I do want to set this up. This is, we are going to deal with the sensitive topic of sexual abuse and pedophilia. And so just a trigger warning there. I do understand that this is a sensitive topic because a lot of people have opinions about these things. And some of the things that we talk about, I just want to preface. And this is the nature of this podcast. My goal in this podcast is to give a biblical perspective on all of the topics that we deal with in the podcast. So that's where we're coming from. We're not coming from an area of, well, we hate this segment of society or this. No, our standard is the Bible. And the Bible is sufficient for all areas of life. And so with the Bible being our guide, we address this topic as I interview Ben Marshall. So I hope this subject or this interview is helpful to you. I would be interested to let and let me know your thoughts on it after you listen to it. But without any further delay, here is the interview with biblical counselor Ben Marshall. All right, guys, I'm so excited to be here with the For Freedom podcast and having Ben Marshall on the podcast today. I gave a little bit about Ben in the intro. But Ben, I'm super excited that you've come on here today and excited to learn about this very sort of not talked about topic that is becoming increasingly important. How are you doing today, Ben? Doing good. Doing good. Yeah, thanks for having me on. We're out here near Seattle. So we've got the fires and the smoke that are accompanying all of that. So, but kind of getting used to it. And that's okay. Yeah. Things are going well. Thanks. I think in the intro, I'm going to mention about your current thesis that you just finished, which is going to be a little bit about what we're talking about today as far as the topic goes, which is the gospel and pedophilia. And so you have some news on that that you're excited about today. Why don't you tell everybody why you're a little bit lighter on your load today. Yes. Yeah. So literally about 15 minutes before you hit the record button, I submitted my final copy to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. So, and I will defend that on September 30th. And then the, I guess I've officially run through the finish line tape on that. But yeah, the, all of the wait is done. It's gone. And so, yeah, feeling a little lighter today. That's great. That's awesome. And I can't wait till it's made available and I can download it, read it and learn from it. Uh, the podcast, uh, we do examine, um, the independent fundamental Baptist movement, the abuses in there, but even, even in large point, a lot of the abuses within the church of the independent fundamental Baptist movement are similar abuses that happen in the church abroad that, you know, the, the, the, the church as a whole. And, uh, but specifically I've been doing a series on abuse and, uh, defining abuse. And then talking, did an interview with Eric Skorzynski of the preacher voice podcast on his work with abuse. But I wanted to come to a point where I've spent time talking about help for victims or survivors, but I wanted to deal with this of actually talking about the abuser or the pedophile. And the reason for that is because, um, in the independent fundamental Baptist movement, you've seen situations, we've seen situations such as, you know, in the eighties, the Dave Hile situation where he was having sexual relationships with teenagers and his youth group. And then, you know, it was swept under the rug. He was sent off to another church and more and more things like that have happened. You have the, and, uh, about five years ago, the Cameron G. Vanelli case where he's a president at a Bible college, things come out, they try to move him. Um, he finally ends up getting arrested for it, going on trial, being convicted, and then getting six months. And then after he's released goes to Florida to help start another Bible college. And here recently, Eric Skorzynski has done work on his about detailing a couple of other situations that are come out where you had a guy who was a youth pastor in California had, uh, more than one victim. Whenever the news came out, he was dismissed. And then while the investigation is going on, immediately moved out of California to Tennessee at another church. So I think that this is a relevant topic on how we look at those that have committed this type of sin. And so for that reason, we'll get into the first topic, Ben. I'd like to hear when we use the word pedophilia or pedophile. I think a lot of people just immediately go to, ooh, that's disgusting, that's wicked, that's horrible about, you know, an adult with a prepubescent child. How really, though, do we define those terms? Yeah. So, um, in, in thinking through that, and I think it's wise because, you know, you've got the word pedophilia, which describes a certain kind of situation. And then you've got a pedophile, which kind of lends more to identity. Um, and, and so, you know, I'm, uh, as a biblical counselor, I'm, I'm, I push back on identity terms like alcoholic versus struggles with alcohol or adulterer versus somebody who struggles with adultery. Like those, those kinds of things. I, I struggle to slap a title on somebody. So, but in, in, in kind of peering through this, you've got pedophilia, which in, in simple terms, it's going to be somebody who's attracted to a prepubescent child. Um, now I'm not going to get into all the, like psychology, the DSM, uh, and all of its different formats. They, they break it out into different, like if it's this age group to this age group, it's, it's this kind of, um, philia if it's, it, so, but basically, um, for the purposes of this podcast, what we're talking about pedophilia is going to be somebody who's attracted to a prepubescent child. Um, there, there is a term for those who are attracted to teenagers. Um, we don't have to go into that, but that's what, what pedophile or that's what pedophilia is. And so then pedophile would be somebody who falls underneath that category. And one, I think good distinction is distinguishing between somebody who's attracted to a prepubescent child and somebody who's a sex offender. Um, they don't always overlap. And that in, in my, uh, thesis, I kind of highlight that in, in one point, um, sexual attraction isn't always the motive behind a sex offender. Um, so that, that, that means that all sex offenders are necessarily pedophiles and not all pedophiles are, or those who struggle with pedophilia aren't always sex offenders. Meaning they don't act on it. Um, I don't know if that makes sense or if you need me to clarify that anymore, but, um, that's how I would define pedophilia. Okay. Now, obviously this is something that has a broad scope. Whenever you're talking about any sin, uh, can be one that affects the church, whether it's even those that work in vocational ministry or even people that, uh, would attend a church. So when we talk about that in biblical categories, we use the word, uh, rewards such as repentance. So if we were working with somebody in this, and this may be getting into, uh, you could probably talk about why you decided to do your, your thesis on this subject. What would be, how does the nonsense sort of break these, these decks to together? How does the secular world or non-Christian perspective, non-biblical perspective, look at how a, uh, sexual abuser or pedophile could repent or change and how would we look at that biblically? Absolutely. Yeah. So, and I'm going to set the stage for my answers there by talking about kind of what I call the cannonball into the deep end of counseling. I had just gotten my undergrad degree, my, my BA in psychology. Uh, I think I had it for like two or three months. I had been ordained for two weeks and in Washington state, that's a pretty big deal. Um, I, we don't have to get into that, but the fact that it was an ordained pastor added, added some attention to the scenario. I'm about ready to, to, to explain, but I was getting ready to go speak at youth group. Um, and, and every time I tell this story, I can kind of hop back in my mind. I can see all of my students there. Dad pulled me into a cry room and he said, I've been molesting my daughter for seven years. I need help. And in all of my, you know, kind of pretend moments in my head where some, where, where I found out somebody was a pedophile, I had never anticipated a moment like that where somebody said, I need help. They, I always envisioned, I got caught that, you know, I'm, I'm looking at jail time, this, that, like all kinds of consequential things were facing them, which is why they might come to me and ask for help. But I had never anticipated a moment where somebody would come to me, had never told a single person and they said, I need help. Um, and, and so that now I, I, we don't have time to go into how I responded to that and how many nights of sleep I lost and all that kind of stuff. But, um, all that to say, that's what prompted me to write the thesis that I wrote. Um, and so in, in kind of answering your, your questions in order, how does the secular world respond, um, to abusers, to, to this guy? Hey, you know, I, I knew how the secular world was going to respond to this guy. Um, the, the moment they found out there was going to be a whole lot of criminal stuff, which there should have been. I, I, I think that's the, the one, if I have a fear about this thesis going public in any way, shape or form, it's going to be, does that Ben Marshall think those guys shouldn't face some kind of criminal charges? Does he, does he think they're no way, not at all. Um, the, the damage that is done to children when pedophiles act on their pedophilia or act on, on their desires and in their lusts is incalculable. Um, I, I, as a counselor, uh, I have worked on the other side, um, and, and it is devastating. It's, it's horrific and it's just, it's grievous. So I, I don't want anybody to think I'm writing this paper, trying to diminish the, you know, consequences of, of somebody acting on sinful lust and sinful desire. So that's, that's not it. But, um, when, when he told me that I instantly thought, this is what you're going to face. I, I know this, I know that this is what you're going to face. You're going to face jail time. You're going to face secular therapies that are not bent on helping you change more into a Christ-like person. Um, there, because at the end of the day, secular therapy does not believe a pedophile can change. Um, and, and so I think there's my, there's my bottom line answer is that's what the secular world says. Now they, they've kind of doubled down on that with the DSM-5 where they've said it's pedophilia. It's an orientation. Um, now we can talk about, they also, there, there still is room for a disorder in the DSM-5. And just for all of your, your listeners, if you're like, what is DSM? It's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It's what psychologists and psychiatrists and therapists use for their diagnostic codes. It's the psychology Bible. I was just going to say for, for lack of a better phrase, it's the Bible that psychologists use. Um, and so in, in there, you know, they, they, they leave room for a disorder, but here's the, the new tweak. It's only a disorder if the one experiencing the pedophilic attractions does not want to experience those attractions. Right? So that's where it becomes a disorder. It's not a disorder if the person is actually okay with their pedophilic attractions. That still is criminal if they act on those. That's that the DSM is not trying to, to say, so it shouldn't be criminal at all. They, they haven't said that. Um, but it's not a disorder. It's not a disorder like it was a disorder in the previous DSM versions. Um, now it's just an, an orientation. And so with that said that, I mean, they, they've doubled down on their belief that pedophiles simply cannot change. So therefore the goal isn't to change them. The goal is to manage them, to oversee them, to protect other people from them. Um, which is why when you have pedophilic sex offenders, the, the, the parole officers and all of the mandates that are over them are super stringent. Uh, when, when I work with a pedophilic sex offender, the hoops, that person has to jump through. And I'm saying that in a good way. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Um, but the hoops they have to jump through are very high. Uh, and we've set those standards high as a church, but the, the parole officer usually sets them even higher. So, uh, in my thesis, I, I've written out kind of the, uh, the outline of what a sex offender has to agree to if they want to attend our church. Before you move on to the biblical category, would you say based on, cause if they, if they don't believe that's a sex offender can change or a pedophile can change, uh, do you think that's why we're seeing sort of more, it's sort of like the, they're, they're giving a little bit of dosage that they're trying the, the testing, the waters a little bit of putting it out there that now this should be accepted as a sexual orientation? Uh, I want to, I, I, I don't think so. Um, it, it, it could be that I, I don't sit in those circles and, and, and listen to those conversations. What I see, um, just from a, a, a sexual revolution trend is this, this kind of is the, the last domino to fall in order to say, um, I was going to say with integrity, that's not really the word I'm looking for with consistency in any ways with consistency, um, where you can believe and be attracted. You can believe whatever you want about sex. You can be attracted to whoever you want regarding sex. And nobody has a right to tell you that's wrong, right? Pedophilia stands in the way of that ultimate, what I call the, the golden cow of, of sexual liberation. Um, right now there is one group of people that according to our culture, um, they can't be attracted to whoever they want to. They can't do whatever they want because it seriously injures children. Um, if they want to be consistent with that sexual liberation, this is the one that they have to get rid of. Is that their motivation? Well, it seems to fit with everything else that I've seen regarding what used to be disorders and wrong is now not only okay, but it's actually celebrated. So I don't know if that was confusing what I just said. That was, I thought that you nailed it. Um, yeah, I think, and that's what we're seeing. Yeah. That's what we're seeing. And, uh, and, you know, I think it's just amazing how fast it's happening. Oh, I, I was just talking with somebody about that the other day. What used to take decades and years is literally only taking months to change. I mean, I think it was just last week, Governor Newsom from California wrote into law something that, that seriously impacted this, this issue of, of pedophilia. Um, and I'll let your listeners go Google that. Um, it's all over the place, but you know, it, it, it's just everything. Well, here, I'll throw this out. The principal of my kid's school, when he heard what I was writing on, he's like, Ben, I'm glad you're writing on that, but there is no way this is ever going to be a mainstream. Okay. Thing. Well, that, that was two years ago. And it was just a few months ago. He looked at me, he goes, Ben, I can't believe what I'm seeing. Like what I said to you, uh, I now think, yeah, you need to be writing on this because it's, it's happening. Um, and I said, yeah, and it's scary how fast it's happening. Yeah. So Ben, with that, as you know, what we're facing today, how as Christians, if we believe in the sufficiency of scripture, we believe that the Bible is God's word. How then should we look at those that have abused in this way? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, to, to be fair, um, I think there are two categories of people that we need to, or two categories to, to think about. There's one category of people who have, have the, uh, desire, you know, there, there's temptations there and they haven't acted on them, which means there's probably been no criminal, like they, they haven't done, they haven't gone through the court system. They might not have had any kind of secular therapy. Um, but they are, they're scared out of their mind to even say or tell somebody, Hey, I think I might have this kind of attraction, um, because I mean, what's somebody going to do with that? Um, right. So there's, there's that kind of a person. And then there's the pedophile who has acted on, um, on their desires. And, and so, um, we probably could spend an hour on each one of those. So you tell me when I need to hit the pause button on one and move on to the other. Um, but I would say, you know, for, for the one who has the desire or their, um, I'll even say temptation. Churches need to come alongside, uh, with counseling. That's one of the things that I highlight in my thesis. There's churches have to embrace counseling because at least when I say embrace counseling, I'm talking about biblical counseling. Um, the, the other option is secular counseling. Um, there's no integrated form of counseling, no Christian psychology, no anything that's, that's touching this. Um, it's all secular forms of therapy and what they'll be introduced to is stuff that should horrify anybody. Um, and I don't need to go into all of the different techniques. Um, cause I, I don't know who's going to be listening to this and I want you to have to put a PG 13 or, uh, uh, any kind of an R rating on this, but it, it does not fit, uh, with a lot of scripture, which talks about us not thinking about, um, sexual things. I'm thinking of Ephesians chapter five, where Paul says, stay away from these kinds of things. Um, and anyway, um, so there's, the church needs to be able to come alongside struggling, those who struggle with pedophilic attraction and help them repent. Um, they, they need to help them see both the desires and the temptations as stemming from a sinful heart. Um, and that's, that's not well received. And just to, to be honest with you, um, when I, when I'm talking with somebody and they say, whoa, are you telling me my temptations are sinful? Like, wasn't Jesus tempted as we are yet without sin? How can temptations be sinful? And, and, and what I want to say is they're, they're springing from a sinful heart. That's what needs to be repented of. And so a church needs to really understand, you know, process of repentance. What is putting off, what is putting on, what is heart idolatry, all of those kinds of things and spend some time with somebody, um, you know, who, who is struggling in this way now. Well, let me hit the pause button. Yeah. I have a question there before you move on to the person who has offended him while we're still talking about somebody who just has desires, which I agree with you. I think that it's very rare that you'd find out because, you know, they'd be scared to death, but on the, on the occasion you talked about, you know, how we would work with them, but would you, would you counsel any safety measures that we, you know, we should put into place knowing that? Absolutely. Um, you know, I, the, um, the protection of children needs to be held high and sexual sin in particular, I'm, I'm, I'm going to pull this out, you know, sexual sin in particular. Um, it's, it's deceptive both to, um, are you still with me? You kind of frozen on my screen. Yeah, we're good. We're good. Okay. It's recording the audio. That's the main thing. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. So, you know, sexual sin overall tends to be very, very deceptive. Um, meaning rare is the guy who's come into my office and said, here's all of my sin, all of my sexual sin. Here it is. Usually. And I think I got this from, uh, John street. Don't know if you know who Dr. John street is, but he, he said, sexual sin usually comes out like a, like, like a, like a rose, right. Or an onion. It's going to come out layers at a time because people don't know if they can trust you with, I'm like at the center core of all of this is pretty disgusting. I don't know how you're going to respond if I just throw it all out there to you. So with that said, right. I do think safety measures need to be put in place, whether it's a pedophile or whether it's, um, you know, some other kind of sex offender for, for that matter. I don't think you should put it, you know, an adult sex offender in positions of power and influence, uh, without a whole lot of other things in place. Um, and I realized some people listening might go, I don't think you should ever do that. Um, well, uh, you know, I, I can't say never, but I do think there needs to be some, some safety measures put in place just because of the damage that sexual sin does. So I don't, uh, I, I, I think I'm affirming there. You should safety measures be put in place. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, and, and specifically speaking, like you're not going to work with kids. Um, there are lots of ministries in the church that need service. Pick one, just not with minors, not with anybody under 18. Um, yeah. Okay. So what about, uh, what about those that, uh, for instance, well, I mean, basically anybody that has committed the act, of course, there's going to be legal ramifications. So, you know, there may be, I'm, I'm assuming that there, you know, the church could take some, some role in helping there, but most of the time, any type of ministry would be taking place after they're either released from prison or, or whatsoever. Yeah. What, how, what would we do then? Like, what would we do with those who are released from prison and they're coming to church? Well, I mean, in the context of, uh, how do we look at that as far as repentance? Um, I just want to make sure I'm answering your question clearly. So what would the repentance process look like for those who have gone to prison and have come out into the church? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So I, I think, I mean, so there, there's going to be some, some parole stipulations. Most likely I'll speak from the state of Washington. Normally when, um, uh, uh, um, pedophilic sex offender wants to come to our church, I have to sit down with his parole officer and him and the parole officer mandates that he tell me what his crimes were. Right. So that's, that, that's usually the first step so that he is not snowing me on why he was convicted. Um, and then, so then the parole officer sets up stipulations. This is when he can be there. This is when he can't be there. When he is there, somebody with full knowledge of what his crimes were needs to oversee him the entire time. Um, now we have things set up. We, we have a whole agreement that somebody has to sign for our church. They will, there's a designated, not, we don't have like a, a pedophilic parking spot. Um, that's that, that's not it. We're not about shaming anybody or guilting anybody, but they do have to tell me this is where I'm going to park when I come to church. This is the entrance I'm going to come in. And we call it a trusted Christian friend. We hook them up with somebody who isn't grossed out by their sin. Um, but does is, is for their own protection, watching them while they're here. Um, and there there's, you know, I, I know basically where they're going to sit in the church service and all of those kinds of things. So that's, those are safety measures that we set up. Um, and there's, there's more, if you want, I can send you our contract. Um, so that way, if you have any podcast listeners who would like to get ahold of that, they, you can pass that along if you want. Yeah, I think that would be great for churches as well. Yeah, absolutely. If, if, if churches could adopt it, I'm, I'm reading Deepak Raju's, um, uh, book right now and trying to adopt some of those things. But, um, yeah, yeah. So then that's, that's just to attend church. But then I, I think if, if a church is really, if they want to invest in helping someone repent and change, there has to be, whether you want to call it biblical counseling or whether they want to call it intense discipleship, some one-on-one kind of work where you're helping them examine their heart. Um, so somebody who understands how the heart works. And when I talk about the heart, uh, talking about the spiritual heart, not the physical heart. Um, you know, but the, the mind, the will, the emotions, all of those kinds of things need to be unpacked, um, and examined. And then what, you know, so there's, there's the, uh, you're, you're working towards the put off. And that's, this kind of touches on another one. What's the difference between worldly sorrow and godly sorrow? Um, what that, that's what we're shooting for other, like what Paul in Ephesians chapter four calls the put ons. I, I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Um, otherwise you just end up with, you know, a box checker who's deceiving himself and others around him. Um, so I, I, I feel like I've ebbed and flowed. Don't know if I need to clarify things, if I need to talk to some more things. No, I, I, I, this, this sort of is pinpointing some, some questions I have. So what, what would be some attitudes or even, so say that you're, I know it's, it's hard to, and we say we don't judge the heart, but it's, it's hard to, you know, determine whether somebody's repented to where you, you want them around even, even, you know, around the church people as well. Um, but what are things that we look for in repentance with some type of sexual sin like this? So I think initially what I'm looking for is more of a, a humble, teachable heart attitude that says, I will do what you ask me to do. Um, nothing's off the table. And I'm, I'm, I pulled that, um, pulled that concept anyways. Um, Desiring God wrote an article and I'm not going to be able to recall it with, with, uh, accuracy, but it's something along the lines of how, how a repentant person should respond or something like that. If, if you Google desiring God is repentance real or something like that, the article pops up and there's, there's three distinctions in there about, um, somebody who truly is repentant and, and all of them have to do with attitudes towards leadership and authority. Um, and so for the, the, the person who comes in, um, just to, to kind of give some, some real examples here for, for the, the, um, pedophile who comes in and says, you know what? I've been dealing with this long enough. When are you guys going to quit holding this over my head? That would be a flag for me of, whoa, whoa, whoa. Um, you now have just entered into a much longer kind of process of us looking at your heart here. Um, and, and I, I have had guys, you know, they, they seem very, very, uh, repentant and, and compliant at the beginning. And then after a couple months of, of just kind of weekly meeting with me and, and sticking into the, the things that we've asked them to do, they're like, yeah, how much longer do I have to do this? Yeah. This, this really doesn't fit with my game plan. Yeah. See, that's where I see, let's see this, this coming up because I see whenever you see people whether it's staff members in church or people within the church that commit to sin, you know, the, the, the, the new, it comes out. There's how people know about it. There's immediately this type of, you know, what people will see as a repentant sorrow, you know, and then of course there's going to be legal ramifications, but during that process, it's, you know, I hear so many times right away, either the pastor or somebody close to them, well, they're repentant. They've, you know, they've confessed and they, they, you know, they've, they've prayed, they've talked to God. In fact, I talked to one person that, um, was, it was, it was a pedophilic situation and it's about two months after it happened, he's awaiting trial, tells me that, you know, Hey, I've repented. I'm in God's eyes. I'm good. I'm right. And then he says, but I want to go back to church until my trial. But the pastor told me it wouldn't be wise for me to go back to church because people would have issues. And he's mad at the church people. Yeah. My own brother. And I've, I'll say this because I've actually mentioned this, this, this, what he said here on the podcast, he spends a year in jail. Then the trial happens. Then he gets sentenced after being in prison. So he's been in, he's been behind bars two years. Then I go, I was able to go visit him. And he, he gives me this question. He says, he says, do you think I should still be in prison? And I'm like, what do you mean? Well, I mean, I'm right in God's eyes. I'm good in God's eyes. Do you think I should still be behind bars? You know, and it seems like there's this sort of quick, okay, I, I've, I feel horrible about what I did. I repented. I'm good to go. Right. Is, is that true repentance? Yeah. I, I, I mean, I would venture to say no. I, I, I don't want to say that there can't be moments of frustration where like, oh, that like they're just, they're, they're wrapping their minds around the consequences. Of their sin are going to linger for a long time. Right. So I, but if they're pushing and pushing and pushing, yeah. And, and even like trying to find sympathy for their, their consequences, you know, I, I have a hard time believing someone is repentant when they say things like I've done enough time now. I, I've, I've paid enough for, for this. Like, okay. If, if God believed that, guess what? But you would not be behind bars, but a sovereign God has orchestrated things in such a way that this is where you're at. And, and you can be content with where you're at, or you can say, no, this is, this is too much. This is more than what I deserve to have. Um, if, if God thought that you wouldn't be where you are. Um, so, you know, I, I struggle when to believe somebody is repentant when they start talking like that. Now, one other thing I'll throw out there, cause when I'm working with guys and I call them on stuff like that over and over and over, they, they quickly learn Ben's not going to put up with this. Um, so I got to change my vocab. So I'll be talking to other people that they bump into. Um, how, how is, how's this person kind of presenting themselves to you or God will providentially have people come to me like, Hey, you know what? I was talking to so-and-so the other day and I, it was really weird. Uh, it was odd. Um, and, and here's how this conversation went like, okay, that's what I needed to hear. Cause he'll put on a show in front of me, but the heart will come out somewhere. Um, and, and usually it's when we're not on guard and, and we let that guard down, whether, you know, peer pressure, fear of man, whatever we, we let that guard down and boop, there's the heart. And then somebody brings that information to me. Uh, then I can work with him. So I don't know if that's helpful. And that's really, yeah, I was listening to Jim Neuhauser the other day and he was talking he, he gave this and it just really helped me understand this idea. He said, imagine like he said, repentance with somebody that's committed sexual sin. Uh, and you know, it's sort of like melting a big block of ice. He said, it's like, it takes time and there's got to be it. It layers come off and layers come off and layers come off. Yeah. Because, and he mentioned this, he said, because if somebody has been committing that sexual sin for a long period of time, then all that time where they were hiding it, they've hardened their heart. And immediately the exposure of that does not remove all of that, that shell and that, that crust that's, that's built up over that time. It doesn't just happen like that. And I thought that was, that was helpful for me to understand that. Um, yeah. Okay. Okay. So, uh, I, let me ask this, you, you might, I don't know if you'll laugh or not, but this should be, I'm, I know you're probably going to think this is a no brainer just because I've seen this happen within the IFB so many times where guys are just put back in the ministry. Somebody who, whether it's pedophilia or just sexual sin or with, with, with a young person, should they be in vocational ministry again? Yeah. So, you know, I, I probably will have many of my peers, maybe, maybe I'm just imagining this. They, they might disagree with me. I don't think so. Yeah. I, I think that the, the role of the, the pastor shepherd is a high role. There's a high calling there. It's not a better than anybody else role. It's just, this is the calling here. And there have been so many pastors who have either abused that or fallen or whatever that, you know, when, when I tell somebody I'm a pastor, it, there's, there's nothing special about that. Um, there, at least the people that I bump into, there's almost like a cynicism there. Like, okay, so what are you hiding then? Um, and, and so I, I think there are lots of roles that people can play who have fallen into sexual sin. And since we're talking about pedophilia, I think there's lots of different spots in church where somebody can serve, they can minister. I don't think they're qualified for the role of pastor. Um, uh, oh, and I'll throw in their elder, um, elder or pastor, depending on somebody's take on that. Okay. That's just me. And we did talk, we did talk a little bit about, and you mentioned, uh, some things that you even talked about your, you guys' policy for, for having somebody that's, you know, maybe even on the other side of registered sex offender coming to church. Um, but maybe you mentioned this or not, or maybe I missed it. Do you, do you think, do you think about families in your church, families with children, you know, if something were to, I know you put policies and stuff, but if something were to happen, should they know, you know, where is the line between privacy of the person? Have they forfeited that privacy? Or, I mean, if something were to, were to happen, even though you put so many guardrails up, you know, I can just imagine the, the vitriol from parents say, you knew this, we didn't know this, you, you get what I'm saying? I totally do. Yeah. Um, and, and so the, the question is, should we inform people when we have a sex offender? Um, yeah, that's, that's tough. I mean, I, I, I have seven kids myself, um, you know, and, and most of my kids right now are minors. Um, I, I'm actually not a fan and I, here's where I kind of default, um, in Washington state anyways, level two and three sex offenders are always put on a registry, um, that anybody can look up and find, um, not all level one, um, are, are put on a public registry. Now all levels one, two, and three, and just cause people might be listening, might, might wonder it level one. Um, basically you have that, um, and, and that says probably won't reoffend level two is we're not sure if they'll reoffend level three is there's a high likelihood that they're going to reoffend. Um, so that in, in Washington state, that's pretty much how it breaks out. Um, and, and so I do think that where you got a public registry that people can go and look at, um, we don't need to make that necessarily public. Meaning we have to all of a sudden tell our membership or those who are attending the church, Hey, just FYI, we've got so-and-so who's attending our church and this is what he's done. Um, I think that can, can, um, foster a lot of fear where there doesn't have to be fear. Now, one thing that we do have in place here, that's another mitigating factor. And I'll, I'll just say that it's a mitigating factor. It doesn't stop absolutely everything from happening, but we do have a security team here. That's a quite a large security team. And there's a lot, there's like FBI agents on there and there's, there's local law enforcement on there. Um, and they do know they, they are told that. And then because, um, of our own protocol, as well as most, uh, parole officers around here, you know, there will be a handful of people at the church who do know what that, that person is here, what they have done. And, and, and things are very limited for them as far as what they can do, but where somebody is really repentant, I have found they absolutely are compliant with all of that. And it's not just a forced thing, but there is an attitude of the heart that says, I'm not even looking to try and get into all that. I just want to come worship God, or I just, you know, with, with the body of Christ. So whatever you would like me to do, I will do that. Um, and, and sometimes they even come with more stringent, um, you know, protocols on themselves than what I'm asking or what the parole officer is asking. And some, I've had one even say, I'll, I'll just sit out in the parking lot and listen online. They, they just want to be around the body of Christ. And at least for that particular person, that was a genuine, um, desire on that person's part to just be around the body of Christ. So, um, what I think my, my thing though, that, that I would go after there is whatever we ask them to do, if there's a heart attitude that says, I'll do it. And, and I will willingly comply with joy, whatever you ask me to do. That usually is indicative of their, a, I'm going to put this in quotes, but a safer person to allow to worship with us. If that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we started off with you talking about secular psychology and, and even the, you know, their treatments, not, not believing that they can change. And I know that this has pretty much been understood as we've gone through the different subjects and questions, but you know, about repentance and stuff. But I think the, the end of the day, biblically, we believe, I believe, I'm seeing that you believe the gospel can change somebody. Absolutely. If the gospel can't change a pedophile really, truly, genuinely, we're kind of wasting our time from, from my perspective. Um, the, the gospel has to be able to not only speak into the darkest issues, but bring people out of those dark issues as well. And I, I believe it does. I've seen it, um, you know, truly genuinely take place. I mentioned the, the dad who told me he'd been molesting his daughter for seven years. You know, I, by the time I left that church, he was playing the trumpet up on stage with a couple other people, um, had no desire at all to work with, with teens, um, children, anything like that. And he was very, very, um, he, he was compliant, but what's the word I'm looking for? He, he was just, he, he was satisfied with what he was allowed to do. And he was happy about that. Um, it wasn't, it wasn't like he wanted to get back. Like, I just want my life to be normal again. Um, or I just want to get back to the place it was before all of this came out. That was not his attitude at all in any way, shape or form. So I I've seen gospel transformation take place. And I think it, it absolutely can. It's a new countenance. It's a new disposition. Um, and it's a contentment too, with, I will, I will have consequences because of my sin that other people simply won't have. And that's okay. Um, one day when I am in heaven with my savior and with my brothers and sisters, this won't be my reality until then, this is my reality and I'm okay with that. Yeah. So. Yeah. And, and I, I think that also, uh, if you didn't understand this from what Ben said and what I've said, not only do we believe that, but we also believe that because it's not just, oh, the gospel can't change. Then just preach and let the people, whatever. No, you, you harmless as dumb, but shrewd as serpents. Yeah. We have to be wise and careful safety. We have to, you know, we have to. Yep. Especially because children who have been entrusted to us to care for and watch over and protect and care for them. They're at the, they're like the bullseye target for somebody who is a, you know, struggling with, with pedophilia or who is a pedophile. Um, and so I think we need to take that very, very seriously. Just like, you know, women who are coming out of abusive situations. Um, I, I want to watch over and protect and care for them. And so we're going to take the necessary steps to do that. Yeah. But I do think we, we need to hold out hope, which is, I'll finish my sentence here. Um, hold out hope that the gospel truly can save and truly can change in this life, which is absolutely different than what the secular world would say. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to, before we finish, I want to transition. We've talked a lot about the abuser. Um, Eric Skorzynski does the preacher boys podcast. I told him that I was going to be interviewing you and he asked him if he had any ideas. He sent this question, a couple of questions over and I've, I've used some of them, but I wanted to use this question, give him credit for it because I want to transition lastly back to survivors or victims. And in the case of a situation where you have a child, maybe even a teenager. A child that is sexually assaulted within the church. Uh, just one, and you, you're from a context right now where you're in a larger ministry and, you know, I'm in a smaller church here in Tennessee to where, you know, I don't know if we'd have a resident council. I mean, I'm, I'm working towards certification. I don't know if I'd be like, okay, we're going to send you to the church counselor, but you're in the, in many churches around the country or in context where if this happens, they have church counselors on staff. So you get your take on should the sexual assault victim, uh, seek counseling, counseling from within the church or would it be wise for them to find a third party? Yeah. Yeah. And just so that I don't, um, answer a question in, in such a way that somebody could go in a wrong direction. Um, is this question meaning they have been sexually assaulted? It's been reported already and now they just need counseling to deal with, with the sexual sin that was committed against them? Or is this, are, are, are you talking about like at the very beginning, it just, maybe a young woman comes in and says, you know, explain some kind of a sexual assault. What then? Is that the, like at what point? I think, I think, you know, okay, the process would, you know, the, the revelation of it, then there's mandatory reporting and that takes place. All right. So then what does the church do with the, after that, what does the church do with the, with the survivor, with the victim? Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, in, in that context, it, I do think, um, the church would be the best place for that person to receive counseling, um, where they're going to look at sovereignty of God. They're going to, I mean, cause that that's got to be there, especially in the life of, of, of, of a believer. God, where were you when this happened? Yeah. Um, what, what might be some of your purposes in allowing this to happen? And a secular counselor is not going to touch on that. And if you don't touch on stuff like that, that is just a gaping hole in the, the life of somebody who's been assaulted that they, they have to wrestle with that at some point. And now I, it doesn't mean they have to right then and there. Um, but a secular counselor just isn't going to talk about that. Um, so I, I, I do think that for somebody in, in cases where it's already been reported, the criminal sides of things have, I, you know, somebody has been arrested, all of that kind of stuff. And now the assault victim is simply, when I say simply, please don't, I'm not saying this is a simple thing. Um, but they're, they're wanting help. I think if the church can provide it, the church absolutely should provide it. Um, and walk beside that person as long as they, they, they need to there. And, and that more and more books are coming out. Matter of fact, I've got it sitting on my desk. Um, Mez McConnell wrote a book. I think it recently came out called the creaking on the stairs, finding faith in God through childhood abuse and, um, excellent from my perspective. Excellent book. Um, and it's, it, he, he ebbs and flows between his own story regarding abuse. And then, you know, how would, how would scripture inform minister to comfort and, and even confront on some level, all of, all of what the abused victim needs to, to think about and deal with. Um, so there are a reason why I mentioned it, there, there, there are more and more excellent resources that are coming out. Um, now I hit the pause button real quick. I remember in, in some of my earlier years of youth ministry, hearing pastors say things to young women in particular, well, you know what, if you hadn't dressed like that, he wouldn't have done that. And if, if somebody is in a church like that, no, I don't think that would be helpful. I think that could actually be more damaging when the victim is actually blamed for the sin that was done against them. Um, so I'm, I'm just trying to put my mind, like who all might listen to this podcast. Yeah. Um, and if somebody is in a church where the abused person is going to be blamed for their own abuse, for, for their abuse, no, I would say, look for a, a biblical counselor in your area. Um, you know, talk to, talk to somebody who can, can point you in the right direction. And help. Yeah. And, and I know this has been hit several times through this, but I believe this, I affirm this and I know Ben does as being a fellow with the ACBC is that there, there is a difference between secular or integrated Christian counseling and biblical counseling. And the main difference is the sufficiency of scripture. And I set up this podcast from the get go, being upfront that I am approaching these subjects and I believe in the sufficiency of scripture. The Bible is sufficient for us today. And so if you're listening to this and you're, you're have more questions, your emotions are getting a little testy because you, you say, well, I've, uh, therapies helped me or you're, you're curious. I would encourage you to go to biblical counseling.com and, uh, on there, if, if you're looking for somebody to talk, talk to about any of these things, um, you can go and there's a find a counselor tab, just type in your zip code and they, you know, you can find a counselor close to you. Yeah. And the, the nice thing, you know, what, one of the pluses of COVID is a lot of counselors have gotten used to counsel via zoom or some of their online platform. So you don't even have to live super close. You can, you know, and that might even be a little bit more safe. I don't know. Um, you know, from a, from an abused person's perspective to actually, I mean, counselors start saying something I don't like and I'm online. I can just turn the computer off. Um, so it might even be safer that, that way, but, uh, there, there's a lot there, there are many more options available to people to find biblical counseling than what there used to be. So, all right. Well, thank Ben. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're crazy and, uh, and your, your, your research and your wisdom in this subject, uh, I think will help others. And I've been, I've learned from it. So I appreciate the time that you've spent. Do you have anything else that you'd like to close with? No, I mean, I, I could keep talking and talking and talking, you know, I, I just turned that in. So there's an excitement there around that it's, it's done and all this information in my head, but, um, distilling all that down to what's, what's practically helpful to, to people. Um, I, I think my, my heartbeat is there, there are lots of people who have been labeled pedophiles. And if you listen to their stories, usually there's a lot of suffering in their, their history and they need to work through some of that stuff too. And so I want people to have appropriate compassion for that suffering. And I also want churches to be radically, not, not radically, that might be a strong word, but protective, um, for their flocks. But above all of that, highlight the gospel where it's dark, the gospel shines the brightest. And, and so these are some of the darkest kinds of situations and, and the gospel, it, I just let it do its work. You don't have to be uber persuasive. Just let the gospel do its work and, and love, love people who are sitting in front of you. So I keep going and going and going. I'll shut up. Awesome. Yeah. No, then if you don't mind, I've been, I took a page out of Curtis Solomon's book and, uh, I've, I've developed whenever I have guests, I'm going to start doing this, uh, that called, I call it the speed round. And I got seven, uh, seven quick questions to ask you if you don't mind doing this and then we'll be done. Uh, speed round. So here it goes. I got seven, seven questions for you. Number one, what is your favorite movie? Um, Willy Wonka, the original one. Gene Wilder. The Gene Wilder. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What is your favorite food? Oh, my, my favorite food. Yeah. Um, pizza, pizza, any type of pizza, any kind of pizza. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, I, so I, I did go to Italy at one point. So if I have my choice, it's from some of those little pizza places out in the country. Um, that wood fired and all that stuff, but yeah. Awesome. Awesome. All right. So what's your favorite sports team? Seattle Seahawks. Oh, Seahawks. Russell Wilson. There you go. Yep. Russell Wilson. Yep. Yep. All right. What is the last book you finished? Oh, that's, that's not. Fair. Cause I just did this, um, last book that I finished. Oh, man. So I have this one staring at me here. Um, I, I can't think of one that I just finished. I'd have to go look at my Kindle. Um, it, it would be, it's the one by David Pallison, um, dealing with sexual sin. Um, it's thin. Oh, it came out like two or three years ago, maybe even four. Oh, I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. Yeah. I've got everything by David Pallison in my Amazon cart, but I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. It's, um, oh, yeah. Ask me the next one. I'll come back to that. Okay. I'll have the name of it. All right. And, uh, let's see, what is your favorite Bible story? My favorite Bible story? Yeah. Oh, man. Um, I, I, I think my favorite Bible story is the Joseph and his brothers. The last guy I interviewed, he said the exact same thing. And our topic was forgiveness and bitterness. So he said, yeah, Joseph and his brothers. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What is your favorite snack? Ooh, my favorite snack. My wife and I pre COVID or right when COVID started, we started this new eating thing. Um, so I haven't had my favorite snack in quite a while. Um, I would say probably nachos, not either nachos or like the soft pretzels that you can dip into cheese. One of those. Okay. Awesome. And then lastly, what is your favorite activity to do with your family? Um, I would say camping that we, we got into that. I just, uh, got off of a two month sabbatical and we did, uh, so we have a 20 man tent and we found a 20 man tent and, uh, did some, some camping and just had a blast. So that's my, one of my new favorite activities with the whole fam. Awesome. I'll tell you what, I'm going to look up that David Pallison book and I'm going to put it in the show notes. And then I'll also, I'm going to put the Mez McConnell. I have not read the Mez McConnell book, but I'm going to get it. I'm going to put that in the show notes as well for anybody who'd like to check that out. But, uh, Ben, thank you again so much for your time. Absolutely. And, uh, and everybody, uh, please, uh, share the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, share it, uh, give it a rating on Apple podcasts and, um, uh, you can follow the podcast on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and until next time to God, not the pastor be the glory. Thank you. Thank you.

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