16. "Aren't you just bitter?" - An Interview w/ Nathan Cravatt

This is the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now, here's your host, John Holyfield. Hey guys, and welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host, John Holyfield, and I am super excited about today's episode. Today, I get a chance to sit down and talk and chat and interview Nathan Cravat of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. And we had a wonderful time, and I wanted to talk to Nathan about the podcast that they do and the impact of the Recovering Fundamentalist, but also something that I've received criticism of. I know that Eric Skorzynski has received criticism of. I know that those guys at the Recovering Fundamentalist have received this criticism. And basically, anybody who either leaves the IFB or decides to speak out of things that are wrong in the IFB after they leave tend to get this same criticism as well. And that is, are you bitter? Or you just sound bitter? So today, we sit down and we discuss this idea of bitterness and biblically address what bitterness is and the fact of, are we bitter for speaking out on the things that we're talking about? Nathan Cravat is the pastor of Hope Church in Trenton, Georgia. Along with J.C. Groves and Brian Edwards, he also hosts the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. And most importantly, he is a devoted husband and father, a husband to Carrie and father to four kids. Well, a couple of them are adults now, but one son and three daughters, which he is absolutely, if you follow him on social media, you know that he absolutely loves his family and enjoys spending time with them. But we had a wonderful time and I hope that this episode is helpful for you. So without any further delay, here is the conversation and interview with Nathan Cravat of the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. Guys, I'm excited to have Nathan Cravat with us from the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. The Recovering Fundamentalist podcast has meant a lot to me and been one of the reasons why it has given me the burden, the encouragement to sort of start for freedom here and go forward with some of the things that we're doing with this ministry. And so I'm excited about Nathan coming on and we're going to talk about an interesting topic. Nathan, how are you doing, man? Doing good, John. Thank you so much for having me on, man. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. So you guys started in January, January, right? Well, actually you had an episode in December, right? We had two preview episodes in December. In the January 1st, we released our first real episode. And as I say, the rest is history. Yeah. The Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. I remember where I was when I found out about it. I just found Eric's podcast, the Preacher Voice podcast. Okay. Telling my wife about it. She was sort of like, okay, okay. Are you thinking about doing something like that? And she's like all nervous. We're sitting there on the bed talking about it. And she's scrolling. She said, well, look, somebody else has got something going on. Somebody just shared this on Facebook. And so I looked at it and said, what is that? And immediately I was like, let's do it. And the first thing, right, is the intro. And the intro, I was like, this is awesome. Yeah, man. Thank you so much. That intro was definitely a home run. We had some help on that, man. Cowboy Kyle nailed it. JC and I had a chance to help with it. But man, that's definitely the hook that gets people in. Yeah. I was sending it to guys that I know that are still in the IFB that wouldn't like your podcast at all. But I was like, hey, I know you're not going to listen to this, but listen to the intro and tell me it's not awesome. Yeah. I've had the same experience. And you'd be surprised how many people that listen that are still deeply entrenched in legalism or still in the IFB world yet are more balanced. I wouldn't necessarily call them legalists. But they're not really fans. But I think it's sort of a guilty pleasure for them. They can't not listen. And some of them listen to be haters. And some of them listen and secretly message us and say, hey, man, we're with you on 90% of the stuff. Many of them can't go with us on the KJV issue. And they want us to know, you know, I'm not going there. But I do agree with you on a lot of things. But I don't think you have to leave the IFB. We think we can fight for change from within. And I would concede that God has called some people to do that. Right. Right. Of course. All right. So nine months. You guys have been you, JC, Brian have been doing this for nine months. I talked with Eric Skorzynski about the impact of the Preacher Boys podcast. What about the impact of the Recovering Fundamentalists? Obviously, it has had an impact. Yeah, it is. It has actually just blown all of our minds as to how many people we are reaching, how many people it is resonating with. And there are so many people that have been hurt. In the church world. In what we would call legalism. An independent fundamental Baptist movement. Because it's such a diverse movement. And that really opens itself up to abuse. And I would say that all denominations would deal with that. But man, we've received a great reception. We also have people that fight against us. And we definitely have our haters. They're out there. And we've kind of embraced that a little bit. Because, I mean, hey, anytime you try to do something positive, there's going to be people that push against it. And honestly, our podcast is aimed at people that have walked away from God, from the church, from Christ, from their faith. And we really want to pull them back in. But we also want to challenge the insiders to either fight for change from within or to walk away from it if they're part of the corrupted section. But yeah, man, we've seen just the downloads, the number of downloads, the number of listens. Our biggest episode right now is getting ready, I would say, later on today to cross over the 13,000 download threshold for one episode, which just blows our mind. Someone told us when we started, if you have 100 downloads your first year, call it a success. That's a great start. And so we went into it thinking, hey, we may have 100 listeners this year. And just had no idea. But we just want to give God all the glory for that, because we are trying to point people back to him and trying to encourage people, help people, but also challenge the status quo of legalism. And man, our listeners are really the reason that we've been able to reach as many people as we have, because we put it out there, but they've been sharing it and social media has just lit up. So yeah, man, excited about the platform that God has given us. And we definitely want to be faithful with that. Yeah. And you know, I can say that it's, it's, I've benefited from it. If I, if I was to think one episode, I know you guys are up to 26 and you've done some different episodes in between. But I always think back to the Craig, when Brian got to interview his dad. Oh man, Craig Edwards, that is awesome. Yeah. It was just such a, such a very good insight from a perspective of someone that was traveling around in evangelism, someone who was in, you know, a lot of involved with a lot of that stuff and just sort of his heart coming at it about a father and son. I just, I really always, I go back to the episode and I think, man, that, that really impacted me. But what if a skeptic was to say, okay, Nathan, how have you, are people really getting helped? What would you say to that? I would say yes, because we get emails, messages on social media, text messages every single day. I would say between anywhere from 25 to a hundred daily. I mean, I'm constantly answering as many as humanly possible. And we kind of spread it out between us, but we've had testimonies of people that have forgiven their abusers, people who had come back from being an atheist to returning to the faith. We've had so many people ask us about healthy churches. They hadn't been to church in a decade or 12 years. And they want to know if we know of a good church in their area. We've had people in tears, call us, message us, and just tell us that we've approached this from an area of not bashing anybody within the movement. Now we do have humor and we will give it back a little bit when people call us names and call us out, which happens all the time. But we definitely don't try to bash people. And we've had people say, hey, your spirit is very appealing and compelling. And just the stories of the people that we have talked to, including people that totally disagree with us. But they say, we appreciate how you're approaching this. And it is causing us to have some deep conversations within the movement. Yeah, I think even in that area. Now, I don't have any type of goal or purpose to engage. I think one of the interesting things about you guys is that you engage with the other side and are open invitation to have them on. That's not really my forte. That's not where I'm going with and my purpose. But one of the things that's helped me is just the compassion, the love of Christ that you extend. Let me say this, the grace that you extend to those that I just want to, you know, sometimes get them out of here. But you guys, and it sort of kept me, caused me to step back and say, you know what, the way they handled it was right. Well, it's a fine line to walk because we do want to challenge. We do want to push. But we also want to extend grace. And a dear, dear mentor of mine, Pastor Tom Gillum, told me one time, he said, you can't change anybody's camp or anybody's circle or anybody's religious preference except through revelation. God has to show it to them. And he said, God can use you guys if you will be winsome. He'll use you guys if you will extend grace to others, to people with whom you disagree. And that's really stuck with me. And that's one of the reasons we stick so closely with scripture. But I want to say something to you because you mentioned your podcast and I am honored to be on. And I am a fan. I've been listening. And man, you absolutely beat us to the punch when it came to church history. And by the way, you're doing a great job with that. I'm enjoying those episodes, actually re-listening because church history is one of my things I love and just dive deep into that. But since day one, actually before day one, on our wish list, I was like, we've got to do church history. As a matter of fact, I think we need to do it first because none of the rest of this makes sense if people don't understand where we came from. And we're going to get there. And I think your episodes have helped me kind of think of which direction I wanted to go because I don't want to repeat exactly what you've done. But man, you've done a great job and I'm enjoying your podcast and I think God's going to use it in great ways. Well, I appreciate that. I really do. Yeah, I really have not been able to get into the crux of what I wanted to cover because, like you said, I felt like I needed to set that up to talk about where the movement is, where has it been? That's just how my mind operates. Plus, a lot of that was sort of an outlet. I'm working on the book and the first chapters of the book is the history of the movement. And I was like, okay, I need an outlet for this. So I just wanted to start that. But one of my main purposes is really being able to get into the details and the nitty-gritty where you guys cover. But I think that the platform and the way that your podcast works doesn't give you necessarily the time to get into the translational differences or that kind of thing. So my goal and my focus is to be able to answer some of those questions where you've impacted them and then say, okay, I have this question, this question, this question. And I found out social media and Facebook and message boards really aren't the greatest place to answer really lengthy questions like that. So I was like, maybe I can do that in an hour episode or a five-episode series of just breaking it down. But one of the things that I have experienced in doing this even before I got started with speaking out on some of the things with the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement and I asked you and you said you've heard it too, is the objection to people that would say something or have come out that they're just bitter. Common expressions are, aren't you just bitter? Those that are speaking out against the Independent Baptist are just bitter. I detect, and I hear this so many times, when somebody listens to somebody's story, they say, I just detect bitterness in their story. First of all, have you heard that? Do you identify with that? And then we'll get into talking a little bit about that subject. We have definitely heard that. And I will agree that there are a lot of people, possibly the majority of people that are approaching this topic that are coming from an area that feels like bitterness and very well may qualify as bitterness. One of the talking points we had early on, even discussing starting this podcast early last year, was JC and I talking about every former fundamentalist or every recovering fundamentalist or ex-fundie podcast or whatever that you find out there is usually an atheistic position or someone who has totally walked away from the faith or they've landed on an extreme liberal, what I would consider an extreme liberal side where you really don't believe in the truths of Scripture. Scripture, you just think it's, you know, kind of metaphors and things like that, but not really a gospel-centered Christian faith. And so we really wanted to approach it from a different place. And we have received this accusation specifically from some people and even people pretty close to us that disagree with us. And you and I talked about that. But without going into a lot of detail, I always just smile and look at them and say, you haven't listened to very much of the podcast, have you? Because if you listen to our podcast, we get accusations from ex-fundamentalists, recovering fundamentalists all the time that say, you guys are too nice. You give them too much credit. You should have gone after this. Why didn't you press in? Why didn't you make them answer this question? And we just say, hey, we want to have healthy dialogue. We've been healed. We want to help find healing for other people. We want to challenge people on the inside. But we don't think that means we have to be hateful. And there are people on the inside of the movement and legalism that take what we do as hateful. And I have received some incredible backlash personally against it. But I would say in answer to that, our podcast wasn't started to address people on the inside. We do want to challenge a little bit, but that's such a small part of what we do. We really want to reach people that have been deeply hurt, affected by abuse, and that are really on the outside or questioning their faith or have walked away from God, church, their religion. And we want to challenge them that just because someone abuses what faith is supposed to be doesn't mean that that makes faith bad. That, yes, people are always going to abuse a good thing, but Christ has never let me down. Christ has never hurt me or failed me. He is everything he claims to be, and he is absolutely a healer. And so we call people back to him, not back to religion. Right, right. So what is bitterness is a real thing, though. So what is bitterness biblically? How would you define that? Okay, when I think about bitterness, and we could go to a lot of scriptures, and I definitely want to do that and get to that, but I think bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Yeah. And the Bible tells us in Proverbs 14, 10, that the heart knows its own bitterness and no stranger shares its joy. Everyone knows this struggle. Everyone knows the struggle of bitterness because at some point we've all been hurt. And I believe that bitterness left alone, bitterness that is not dealt with, or I would say, I'm sorry, hurt left alone, hurt that is not dealt with or abuse that's not dealt with and healed. It can turn into bitterness. And another thing I think about with bitterness is that bitterness rests within ourselves, but it's always aimed without. It's always aimed at others. It's directed against others because you really don't get bitter against yourself. I mean, think about it. We can have shame. We can have guilt. We can even dip into self-loathing. I think about the Grinch that stole Christmas, the self-loathing that he talks about. And that's taken to this huge extreme, but we've all probably experienced some of that. But bitterness is always directed against somebody else. And another thing about bitterness is it always requires a wrong or a perceived wrong against yourself. And so a hurt or abuse that is left undealt with or that is fostered and that is coddled within us and fed definitely turns into a bitterness. And I think if you had to define it, I've looked up the definitions, but if I had to define it myself without doing that, I would just say a refusal to forgive. Okay. Okay. And the Bible in Hebrews 12 talks about that being, it commands us to cast it out. And I think the reason is because this goes along with what you're saying. It is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's poisonous. It kills you from the inside. Yeah. Yeah. I heard a quote one time and I'm sure you've heard this, but they said being bitter is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah. Or the other person to be hurt. We, we damage ourselves more than we damage other people. Yeah. And I, I like what you, you brought up too, because I think a lot of times when we approach the subject of bitterness or accuse someone of being bitter, we quickly dismiss the fact. Which is what you brought up was that there, the reason the bitterness is there is because there has been hurt done. Yeah. And I think the best way to reach someone who has become bitter is to also acknowledge the hurt. Yeah. That's, that's a very important part of this step because a lot of people don't realize the depth of their wound and how deep their scars and wounds really are. And if there's no healing, it can quickly go from a hurt to deep bitterness, which drives us to some dark places. And I want to back up just, just a little bit and go back to the question about bitterness. I don't believe our podcast as the recovering fundamentalist podcast. I don't think it's coming from a bitter position because God has brought deep healing in all three of our lives. But I would say this, all three of us are very familiar with bitterness. There were some seasons in my life where I was deeply bitter, where I didn't realize how hurt I was, where I didn't realize that the root of bitterness had taken, set in deep roots as Hebrews chapter 12, verse 15 says. And that, that root of bitterness was in me and it was driving me away from people. But I would say even since God has provided a lot of healing before the podcast, which led up to starting the podcast the way that we are. But even since the podcast, man, hearing other people, Dave Young, for example, Phil Kidd, for example, who are still very vastly different from where I'm at in, in a, in the church world as a pastor methods and, and even theologies. And yet I've come to respect these men in ways that, you know, I wouldn't even have wanted to have a conversation with them or even had anything nice to say about them. So I know about bitterness and I agree with you that anytime we want to talk about the definition of bitterness, we need to go to scripture and scripture definitely talks about that. And bitterness, thinking about a root of bitterness is something that goes deep. It's something that, that actually leads to some other things happening in our life. It doesn't stay alone. It eventually bears fruit. Right. And so that would bring to the next question then, because if somebody is accusing, whether it's you guys, whether it's me or whether it's listeners of bitterness, it's sort of like, I think about it this way, you know, John wrote the gospel of first John of, you know, the, you got the five evidences of believer. You asked the question, how do you know somebody is a believer? Well, he gives you fruit of the believer. So if you accuse somebody of bitterness, what is the fruit of bitterness or what is the result of bitterness? So if somebody is accusing you and, and the gut and JC and Brian of you guys are just saying this stuff because you're bitter or your audience is just bitter. On the outside, there is a little bit of a way that you can tell whether that's an accurate assessment or not because of what is the result. So what is the result of, or the fruit of being bitter? Well, according to scripture, the fruit of being bitter is, as I've already quoted the verse in Proverbs 14, 10, is that there's the removal of joy in our lives. Joyless living, an inability to enjoy things in life because you're constantly focused on what's been done to you. And I mentioned earlier about a refusal to forgive. I think that's something that just is, is so key to bitterness. You cannot feed bitterness or foster bitterness while also forgiving someone. It's this holding onto something and bitterness, this whole picture of the root of bitterness, which eventually leads to the fruit. It's this word picture that we can all associate with because it takes time for something to grow. It takes time for something to bear fruit. I'm not a farmer, but I did have a little bit of experience with gardens and things when I was a child. And I know you don't throw the watermelon seeds in the ground, cover it up one day and go back out the next day and have this awesome watermelon. No, it takes time. And it takes, you've got to weed the garden. You've got to keep the animals out of the garden. There's so much work that goes into that, which is why I'm not a farmer and a gardener. But there, there's so much, it takes time for it to grow. And this, this root of bitterness, I think one of the aspects of it, yeah, it does steal your joy. But I think it also leads to a victim mentality because you have to experience a wrong or at least a perceived wrong to, for this root of bitterness to be planted, the seed that will take root and that will, will grow. And the victim mentality is something that I believe I held onto and fostered for years. And it's something that led me to some pretty dark places. And God had to point that out in my life. He had to bring some truth into my life and confront me in my sin. Because while it's not a sin to be hurt, it's not a sin to experience abuse, it is a sin to hold onto that and to refuse to forgive somebody. So this whole victim mentality, I think, is key because as long as you're feeling like you have been wronged, you're never focusing on the wrong that you have actually done to other people. Because there's no such thing as a neutral human or a sinless human. Yes, we've all been hurt at some level, but we've also hurt other people. And as long as I'm holding on to this bitterness, I'm refusing to acknowledge that, you know, I'm flawed too. My parents that hurt me at some point or a pastor that hurt me at some point or an abuser that subjected me to something that wasn't right or wasn't fair for a young child. I can hold onto those things and focus on what they did to me. But part of the fruit of that is refusing to acknowledge my own sin and the fact that I have also hurt others. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that if somebody's listening to this, I think I want to point out this doesn't mean that you or I are dismissing what has happened. But understanding that more damage can be done by letting what happened to you hold back forgiveness and letting bitterness take place in your heart. Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because one of the most powerful words I've ever heard or read on forgiveness was in a sermon that I heard John Piper deliver. And I also found it later in one of his books. And I don't know which book it was right now, but it would be pretty easy to find. And he deals with the issue of refusing to forgive someone, especially when there's been deep hurt or deep abuse. He said that our pushback and our refusal to forgive comes from a place of feeling like if we forgive someone, they're released from being liable or culpable for what they did. But he made the point that forgiving someone is not releasing them. It's releasing them to God's justice because God is just. God is righteous. No sin will not be dealt with. All sin at some level will be dealt with. And this is scary because I also have a lot of sin. I have a lot of things that require God's wrath and God's righteous judgment against me. And when I think about forgiving someone for something horrible that they've done to me, what I'm doing is refusing to punish them myself because I'm not the judge. I'm not the righteous judge. God is. But I'm releasing them to God's justice. And when I do that, John, one of two things is going to happen. One, they will hear the gospel and through the sacrifice of Christ shedding his blood on the cross for their sins, they will be forgiven. Or number two, they will refuse that forgiveness, resist the gospel, and they will ultimately have to pay the price for their own sin. So God can do a better job of punishing someone than I can. And honestly, releasing them from me being the judge is a thing that releases me, but it doesn't necessarily release them because they're still accountable before God. The Bible says every one of us will give an account of himself before God. And I think as long as we're focusing on other people's sins, we're not dealing with our own. And once we acknowledge that God's forgiveness is available to us, because, man, I've caused deep hurt in people. I shudder to think about this, but I would say it's possible. I don't know of anybody particularly, but I would say it's possible that there's someone out there that has walked away from church because of how I represented Christ. And I know there are people out there that I was rude to, I was hateful to, either in school. I mean, think back to elementary, middle school, high school, how you treated people. And, man, I can think back to wounds and scars that I still have from my days in middle school, horrible things that people did or said to me that I carry with me. And I'm wondering how many people out there I have harmed that I maybe have forgotten about, or I just didn't think it was a big deal. Not even to mention the people close to me, like my children or my wife or my parents or my brother and sister, people that come to my church that I'm called to shepherd that I have hurt because I'm a sinner. I'm sinful. And so, yeah, I think part of the fruit of that is focusing on other people. We lose our joy when we're so bitter against someone that we can't receive forgiveness because Jesus did say that if you refuse to forgive your brother, then your Father in Heaven will refuse to forgive you. And I'm not sure. I totally understand every aspect of that verse because I do believe that God does forgive us ultimately of our sin. But there are areas we can hold unforgiveness, and I believe God's going to hold us accountable for that in our lives. Yeah, one of the things you said, I preached a message at our church a couple of weeks ago, and one of the things you said reminded me of a quote, so I was trying to bring it up real quick. I think it's either Chuck Swindoll or John MacArthur. I forgot to write it down. But I know I was studying after those guys when I was preparing this, but it said when we come to hard things in this life and trials in this life, we can become bitter because we think that somehow God has shortchanged us, that He doesn't really care about us, that He's not good. And I think that you sort of hit on that, you know, our perspective of, you know, we were the ones done wrong. Yes, there's abuse. Yes, there's people that prey on others, and people are done wrong. But, you know, when you think about the sovereignty of God and the fact that He has ordained these things and that, you know, you think about the life of Job, you think about the life of Paul, you think about, you know, all of these servants of God, all of these people throughout the Bible that were, let's use our word today, they were abused. And in that, they point us to biblical help for getting through that. Yeah, that's a great point. And I don't ever want to be guilty of minimizing someone's pain. Exactly. I don't want to minimize someone's abuse and skip over the healing process and say you need to release everybody immediately. I don't think forgiveness is something that's just 100% within your power. I can't work that up within myself. Yes, I can obey God when He commands me to forgive, and I can try to exercise that. But ultimately, forgiveness is a gift of the Spirit. It's given to us. The ability to forgive somebody comes from God Himself because that is one of His attributes. He is a merciful, long-suffering, forgiving, patient God. And I don't want to minimize this healing process because it took me years to get to where I'm at. I don't want to look at someone or even speak unintentionally through this podcast to someone out there that I don't know who may be less than a year out of the abuse. Or maybe they've never really heard any gospel truth that helps them deal with that or they haven't received counseling, and it's still so raw. I would say, yes, there is a process of grieving the loss, grieving the betrayal, the hurt, but ultimately forgiveness, and this is a gospel message, forgiveness is available. And if someone is thinking there's absolutely no way I could ever forgive that person, I would challenge you not by shortchanging your abuse or the pain that you've experienced, but I would challenge you by the grace of God and by who God is in His nature and in His person that the gospel is way more powerful than we give it credit for. The things I've released people for, even areas of forgiving myself, which is kind of tracking off into a whole other line of thought, but even forgiving myself, releasing the self-loathing, the guilt, the hatred of self for things that I've done to other people and things that I'm deeply ashamed of, allowing the gospel to cleanse that and acknowledge that I have to receive the forgiveness that Christ purchased on the cross for me. And I would argue, John, that the single most Christ-like thing we can do is extend grace to someone who has hurt or abused us. And think about this, when you extend grace, you're imaging Christ in your daily life and before the world, for God's glory, in a way that displays the gospel like nothing else does, because it's impossible to extend grace to someone without a wrong being done to you. Think about it. You can't show someone grace until they've offended you, until they've done you wrong. So the most Christ-like thing we can do is forgive and extend someone grace, but a lot of times we short-circuit that process because as soon as someone does us wrong, we write them off. We walk away from them. We get as far away from them as we can when God did the exact opposite for us. He took the offense, and he stayed, and he waited on us, and he reasoned with us. He extended grace and forgave us. And that's just, it's something that we're called as Christians to do. And I would say this is something that has to be started by the power of the Holy Spirit in us, because I wasn't capable of doing that before Christ awakened me, before he regenerated me, before he justified me, before salvation happened in my life. That wasn't something I was able to work up in and of myself. Right. I totally agree. We sort of hit the cure. Yeah, I think so. We skipped, and we went straight to the number four, but I think that this is appropriate now to talk about this. So going back to the context of what you do and JC and Brian and y'all's podcast and what Eric even does with his podcast, and this is where the heart of the criticism, I think, lies. Does telling your story or speaking out against the wrong that's been done to you equal bitterness? No, I don't believe it does. And, you know, we can, again, go back to Scripture. And you and I talked about Ephesians chapter 5. And he deals with this, and this goes back to what I was talking about with the John Piper quote of releasing people to God's justice. He says, And we think about, as these verses go on, discerning what is pleasing to the Lord, taking no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead exposing them. This has probably been the biggest pushback, and I heard it yesterday about our podcast. It is that there's so many things you could do a podcast on that could help people, on the gospel. You could do a podcast on, you know, just going through books in the Bible, expositing Scripture. And I agree 100%. I wish there was no abuse in the world, and we could just focus on that. But God calls different people to different things, and people that need healing so that they can grow need to deal with these issues. So when we talk about not taking part in the works of darkness but exposing them, this area of legalism is a very, very serious sin against God. And it's a sin against the gospel of Jesus Christ, because it stands and exists in the face of what true grace is. It exalts man as I can achieve my salvation myself, or I can maintain my salvation myself. And it totally dishonors what grace is all about, why Christ had to suffer so deeply. And even I think about Jude, where he talks about contending earnestly for the faith. And I'm getting back old King James language, but earnestly contending for the faith. This means to fight. It means to go to war. It means to do violence against those who would attack the faith. We're standing in defense of the truths of the gospel. So when we shine the light, man, when we shine the light of the gospel, and he talks about this in Ephesians 5, that it exposes the works of darkness. And we call people to be awakened. So when a pastor is standing in a legalistic church, and he reads a Bible verse, and from that one Bible verse that he could almost pick at random from any page in scripture, is read, and then he proceeds to talk about clothing, about what you eat, what you drink, places that you go, the types of music you listen to, what kind of, you know, interior your church building has, what kind of lights you can use, just all these areas of Christian liberty. And the main focus is on versions of the Bible, and other expressions of legalism. I think it dishonors the gospel, because we're speaking man's word, we're speaking man's opinions, we're speaking traditions. Traditions, instead of digging into the gospel, and exposing that shining the light of the gospel, the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, that shines in the darkness of people's hearts, even Christians, and exposes our sin. This is a constant process of repentance, that is going on in the life of a Christian. And I think we're short-circuiting the gospel work, that the Holy Spirit has to do in someone's heart. I'm not called as a pastor to be the Holy Spirit for my people. I'm not called to do his work. I share the word of God. I plead with them. I'm passionate about truths of scripture, but I don't think speaking out against sin, which legalism is sin, that is dealt with very clearly and openly. Jesus talked about people exalting their traditions over the scripture. That's what you and I are both dealing with in this ministry that God has called us to in our podcasts. And Paul dealt with it. Jesus dealt with it. It was dealt with in the Old Testament, the New Testament. And God calls us, the majority of Paul's 12 or 13 books, whichever you feel about Hebrews, Paul calls us to stand up for sound doctrine, or to earnestly contend for the faith. The majority of what he's talking about in those books is dealing with exposing false teachers, resisting false teachers, and standing up for sound doctrine. Doctrine matters. And when people get it wrong, it needs to be called out. I know that's a really long answer. I'm sorry, but it's something I'm passionate about. No, I think that was, that's actually really cool that you went, I wasn't even thinking in that direction, but I thought that it matched perfectly because when you think about people, I think this is, and this is the crux of the problem. Whenever you talk about somebody talking about where they were wronged, and then automatically equating that as bitterness, I think that is a form of, of, of branching outside of scripture itself. You're, you're, you're attaching your own legalism of what you, your standard of what should or should not be done onto somebody telling their story. Yeah. And I think that for, you know, that false understanding of bitterness really is why I didn't say anything for six, seven years. You know, I left in 2013 and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't bitter. Yeah. And so I felt, you know, I don't need to talk about this openly or publicly because that's proof that I'm bitter. I'm not bitter. And there's nothing wrong with me. And you know, the interesting thing is, is that, and maybe, and I know you guys have found this, but when you finally cross that line and you actually begin to speak openly, how many people reach out and say it's, it was the opposite. It wasn't that you came across bitter. It's they were helped. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's evident that God's healing process has taken place in our lives. And I'll say by listening to your podcast, it's evident in your life that God's healing process has taken place. But it's been my experience that people in my world, in my sphere, people very close to me, they were okay. They didn't agree with me, but they were okay. As long as I walked away, as long as I went and followed where I felt like the Lord was leading me, but there was this unspoken. And even at times spoken, I would say resistance that you just don't need to speak out against it. Like you said. And as soon as I did start speaking out against it, boy, they have some major, major, major issues with me. Simply sharing my story. There are things I never thought I would share in my story. Some dark chapters in my story, things I'm embarrassed about things that expose my own deep sinfulness, but God has set me free to the extent that I'm not ashamed. Sure. I'm ashamed of my sin, but I'm not ashamed of who I am in Christ, that I am a redeemed, justified, born again, center that has been given a new identity. And Paul certainly was not shy about sharing his testimony. I mean, he was a murderer. He was, he, he stood at Stephen's, uh, murder. And approved. And would have done the same thing at Christ. We don't know where he was when Christ was being crucified, but we know which side he aligned with. Yeah. The Sanhedrin. He was on the side of Christ's murderers. So yeah, Paul certainly wasn't shy about speaking out. Again, the interesting thing about Paul too, is that it just clicked. Whenever you said that was not only was he not shy about telling a story, but he wasn't shy about telling what his theological position was before he was converted to Christ. You know, he would, he was not shy about saying I was one of the ones that, you know, studied under Gamaliel. And, and I knew all, I kept every rule and all this stuff basically saying I was the legalist. Yeah. He had the pedigree, man. He was a professional legalist and he was the, the best and the greatest of the legalist as he would have said. But man, just, just thinking about my experience in this and the freedom of sharing your story. Yeah. People are going to say you're bitter because you're in a different place than I am, but I'm not coming at it from the direction of bitterness. I'm, I'm coming at it from the direction of Christ has healed me. Christ has nourished my soul with bread from heaven, which Jesus said, I'm the bread that's come down from heaven. He, he has given me hope and peace where there was a, there was emptiness and there was chaos and there was anger and there was bitterness. And I want to share that with as many people as possible. And the thing I want to say to people that, that think I'm bitter or accuse me of that is, you know, you were fine as long as I wasn't saying anything publicly about this. I've felt these things and believed to these things, which honestly, God looks at the heart, but the belief level, the mind level, the emotional level. And, and at the heart level, I've believed in, been living out these things and practicing these things and been out of the IFB world for decades, over two decades, two and a half decades. And they never seemed to mind. We had great fellowship. Everything seemed fine until I began to speak out, not against them personally. I think I've been overly generous toward people still in the IFB world. And I don't understand why a lot of them are there. I don't understand a lot of glossing over the abuse and the things that have happened or even associating with, with a name that is so attached with abuse in our culture, which it is. Type it into the internet. You'll see. You'll see. And I know all branches of denominations in Christianity have certain people that speak out against them, but man, I, I don't feel like what I'm doing is coming from a position of bitterness because I'm, I'm praying for people that are at a polar opposite position than I'm at. And, and I want to see my real heart and the real heart of the covering fundamentalist podcast is I want to see people healed and helped. And I want to see them ultimately walking behind their shepherd, Jesus, who is the one that leads his sheep and his people. Yeah. You know, when I, the, the, the second question was what is the, the fruit of bitterness? And so that, you know, we said it was a lack of joy, joyless living. It was from the inside that comes out and affects other relationships. The reason why I was wanting to talk about that was because I think the evidence is whenever you listen to the recovering fundamentalist podcast, you listen to you guys. That's not the case. I mean, you guys are not just a bunch of, it's not three angry guys just yelling all the time. Um, it, you know, it, you guys are having fun. Yeah. It might be three crazy guys saying some crazy stuff from time to time. And, and I think all of us, you just never know what's going to come out of our mouths, but man, we've had one-on-one conversations with people after podcasts rubbed them the wrong way. And I've spent hours on the phone with people, close to people and people that I didn't even know trying to explain to them. I love you. Even though we disagree, I love you. And, uh, I'm not trying to slam you or, you know, group you in. And this is the, the most common accusation is that we broad brush the IFB. And I tell them, I'm not trying to broad brush or group you in. I know there's a, I know there's an I in IFB. I know it's supposed to be independent, but there's such a commonality. There's such a, uh, a strong resemblance among the traditions, which I would even say, I'm not a person who says traditions are wrong. Traditions can be beautiful, but when you exalt tradition over scripture or even give more airtime in the pulpit to tradition rather than scripture, that's, that's dishonoring to God and to people because people can't grow in that environment. That's just commending, uh, behavior modification to them. And I would say 80, 70, 80% of what I encountered in IFB pulpits and churches was behavior modification being preached or conformance to exterior standards. And dude, I got good at that for a while, but it never changed my heart. Right. I needed a savior. I needed someone to, to, uh, do something in me that I couldn't do for myself. Yeah. I think that if anybody is, um, you know, wants to use that argument, they need to listen to the field kid episode, because I really think that he blows the, the whole independent aspect to smithereens. I mean, he basically just says, yeah, let's, let me tell you how independent they are. And he just, he pulled the veil back. Yeah, he did front as an insider. I know he took Baptist off his sign, but he's still independent Baptist. Very practically. And he even said in a sermon clip that I think I played in the intro on the second episode, which was awesome. He, uh, he said, we haven't changed anything. And, and really they haven't, they just took a name off of a sign and he still preaches the same way. Right. But he has distanced himself. He's trying to, from this movement. And I do know that he is trying, we've had a lot of one-on-one conversations and I do know he's trying to go a different direction, but he, he still has a lot of things in common. But, uh, but that being said, there's a lot of people within the movement that are trying to live differently, that still have the name independent fundamental Baptist on their sign. And they still use the King James version. Yet they love people. Yeah. They are trying to help those that have been abused. And I think. If we can skip back forward, I know I jumped around and man, that's one of my pet peeves. It drives me crazy. When me, Brian and JC do that, I have this really good outline for the podcast. And then one of us just blows it up. So I apologize, John, but if we can jump back forward to the cure for bitterness, bitterness, number four, um, you had mentioned Isaiah 38, 17. He says, behold, it was for my welfare that I had great bitterness, but in love, love that in love, you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction for you have cast all my sins behind your back. So thinking about the cure, uh, for bitterness, which is hatred that has the chance to grow and develop and anger that has a chance to, to take group and, and become toxic, toxic and poisonous in our lives. Um, love God's, love can set us free from that. And we can be people that turn around and show love to those who have harmed us. There was a girl on Twitter and I didn't get her permission. So I won't use her name, but I believe it was two days ago. She said, and I believe I like this. If anybody wants to dig for it, I think you can probably find it. She said, my mind is absolutely being blown today. And my world is being rocked by the fact of the gospel that teaches me, that God loves my abusers as much as he loves me. And that he wants to extend grace to my abusers as much as he has extended grace to me. And man, I just melted into tears because dude, this girl has been abused deeply, deeply by people very closely related to her that should never, ever harm or abuse a child. And yet she, as a teenager can look back and say, God's grace is for, has, has brought me healing from bitterness and forgiveness. And she's extending that forgiveness and grace to others yet. Admitting the struggle that she's in that, you know, one day she may be posting something like that. The next day, man, she's really struggling with why did this happen? How could they do this? How could, you know, so it's, it is a process. It is a journey. It's healing. So God commends love, kindness. I think about the fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. And again, I'm jumping back into self-control into the old King James. That's what I memorized. Almost all the scripture and all the scripture. And as a child and as a, as an eight year old boy, I could quote more scripture than most independent fundamental Baptist pastors. So I have a lot of King James and I love the King James. I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with the only position, but I do love that version. And it is a version of scripture and it's, it's deeply ingrained and I'll never totally walk away from it because you know, when I'm an old man and senile and start talking crazy, I guarantee you King James version is going to come out because it's so deep in my heart. But when you think about the fruits of the spirit, man, that's, that's what God gives us as he takes away that sin that he died for. He fills us up with himself. And those are all basically attributes of him that begin to permeate our lives. And I think when it all boils down, John, it's a gospel issue, bitterness, forgiveness. This is a gospel issue. And if someone is listening and I believe they will be, bitterness needs to be dealt with because as long as bitterness is growing in your heart, we are not acknowledging our own sinfulness. And I already mentioned that, but I wanted to come back to it again because this is a gospel issue. And I believe the cure is first of all, we have to acknowledge our sinfulness. And once we realize the depth of our own sin and depravity, which goes deeper than any of us realize or want to admit, then we have to kind of go a little bit easier on people who have offended us because we've done as bad or worse, I believe to others. And secondly, we need to receive God's forgiveness until you can receive God's forgiveness and be forgiven of the horrible things that you've done in your life. The things that separated you from God, not to mention being born as a sinner and being born in, in this identity that is predisposed to sin. And we love sin and we run to sin. And when we receive God's forgiveness, it opens this whole new capacity within us to extend forgiveness to others. So I would say the cure for bitterness, and this isn't a one-time process. It's a daily process that we have to acknowledge our sinfulness, receive God's forgiveness for that, and then do the same thing he did to us for other people, extend that same forgiveness to them. Yeah. You know, as a biblical counselor in training, I'm not there yet, but I've been working on it for a couple of years. One of the things you hear all the time with people that are struggling with things is the put off, put on, you know, the Bible, especially in Ephesians four and five, put this off, put on the, Paul instructs us to stop a sinful behavior, stop a wrong behavior and put on a new behavior. And in four 31 and 32, he says, put off bitterness, put off anger, put off wrath, put off malice. And then in the next verses, he tells us what to put on there, which is what you said, love, kindness, tender heartedness, forgiveness. But I think you hit this earlier and it's the key. The interesting thing is I think of a chapter four, verse 30 of Ephesians. He's, he says before he goes into that list, do not grieve the Holy spirit. Yeah. And then he explains this, meaning this, that bitterness, anger, wrath, malice, that stuff grieves the Holy spirit. Yeah. Don't do that. Instead, put on love, kindness, forgiveness. All of these character traits are Christ. I mean, you said it, this is, can you be any more Christ-like when you forgive? I mean, that is, that is, and, and I don't want to say, you know, come across like I'm saying that we're, we're little gods, that kind of heresy, but you know, these are divine characteristics. And when he gets later on in Ephesians five, for a few verses down, he tells us to do these things, we must be filled with the spirit. Yeah. And I think that's the key to understand that you yield yourself to the Holy spirit and your life to enact the truth of God's word. And that is where the help. Are you familiar with David Pallison? I've heard that name, but I'm, I'm not connecting the dots. He's a, he was, he died, I think last year, two years ago. He's a biblical counselor. He's wrote some fantastic works. And I, I, I shared this on a previous episode, but I just think it fits for what we've been talking about. It's, it's a booklet that he wrote on sexual assault. And he said this forgiveness does not mean that what happened to you was okay or can be excused. Forgiveness does not mean that what happened to you was a small, unimportant thing. Forgiveness does not mean you will forget what happened to you. And forgiveness does not mean you shouldn't seek to have the perpetrator justly punished by the law and put where he cannot harm others. But forgiveness says what happened was wrong, destructive, cruel, and inexcusable. But you are choosing to not take personal vengeance. Wow. That's awesome. That's what, that's what it is. It's saying, you know what, this bitterness that is, is really wrenching my soul and making me an angry person. You know, the interesting thing about the, the, how bitterness takes over a person is, it tends to ruin other relationships that you don't have any problems with. Yeah. Because you, it starts to take over your, your person, your, your, uh, countenance and the way that you interact with other people. Yeah. Bitterness is something that starts on the inside. It's internal, but it doesn't stay there. It manifests itself in so many different ways. I believe it can manifest itself emotionally, relationally. I even believe bitterness and scientifically, this can be proven can manifest itself physically. There are physical manifestations of holding this poison of this bitterness and refusal to forgive in. And I, I think about the story of Naomi in the old Testament and Ruth. Yes. And the thing about Naomi is she had been done wrong. If you really dig into the story by the people closest to her, who were supposed to love her and lead her, her husband. And, uh, even her sons who went a very destructive direction. When, when, uh, famine came into the land of Israel, instead of staying and waiting on God, they did something they were commanded not to do. And that was leave and go to the land of Moab and go to the enemies of God's people and to try to find salvation there. So they turned the found wives. They were not. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They, they, that one sin led to another. And when Naomi returns sunless and husbandless to the land, she is a bitter, uh, uh, empty shell of the person she was when she left. And she said, don't call me Naomi, call me Mara because I am bitter. And yet we see God who is a redeemer who be sets out. This begins this process in her life of redeeming her story to the point that she is included in the line of Christ. And that is the ultimate redeemer. And that's the ultimate story of redemption. And this woman who was just so deep in sin and bitterness, a lot of which wasn't her own fault, but she was responding to something that had been done to her. A wife in those days didn't have a whole lot of choice where she went, what she did. It was, you do what you're told. Yeah. And as she was exposed to this negative direction, she became this horribly bitter person that affected everybody around her. And yet through the grace of this pagan girl, Ruth, who chose to cling and love her mother-in-law and to go with her. And then ultimately through her great, great, great, great, great way down the line, grandchild, the son of David, Jesus Christ, her story is given ultimate significance. And that bitterness is removed. And we see a story of love and redemption in her life. Oh man, that's, that's awesome. That is, that is so good. You know what? I don't normally do this. Maybe I should start doing it, but Nathan, would you mind, you know, praying for someone that may be listening to this, that is either struggled with this or struggling with this. And just, we can wrap this up with, with maybe a prayer of dedication. Yeah, I would be honored to do that. So thank you, John, for having me on and for, for asking me to do that. So let's, let's pray. Father God, we come to you. Just acknowledging the power of the gospel. that as we talk through these difficult issues of bitterness and dealing with deep hurts and abuse, that you are the God who has provided healing. You are the great physician. You're the God who sees our deepest wounds and hurts and scars. And you have made provision to, to bring us healing. So Lord, I thank you for the power of the gospel. It is the power of God to salvation to everyone who believes. And Lord, I thank you that through Jesus Christ, you have provided exactly what the human condition needs. You have provided for our salvation, but also for our healing and also for our growth in the gospel. And Lord, I ask that the power of the Holy Spirit would just breathe into people's lives right now, wherever they are. Lord, if they are separated from God by their sin, I pray that the Holy Spirit would breathe into their life and open their spiritual eyes to see their sin, to see their need of Jesus as their savior, and to call them to repentance. God, if there are Christians who are still struggling with some deep wounds in their lives, open wounds that haven't had a chance to heal, Lord, I pray that the healing power of the gospel through the Holy Spirit would provide healing for their lives as they receive your forgiveness, forgiveness as they receive your grace, that they would in turn supernaturally, not in and of themselves, but supernaturally through the power of the Holy Spirit, extend that forgiveness and grace to other people so that their story can join in with the gospel story, the same way that Naomi and Ruth's story joined in the gospel story, and they can begin to extend grace and love and forgiveness and healing to others. And Lord, I do ask you for that healing because I know there are listeners who have deep wounds, deep scars emotionally, physically, and Lord, I don't ever want to minimize that because you didn't minimize our sin. You dealt with our sin on the cross. You dealt with our abuse of others and the abuse that had been done to us. So Lord, I just ask you to provide healing. Lord, I pray that the bitterness would be uprooted and that it would be replaced with love, joy, peace, and Lord, patience for those who wrong us, that we would be able to extend grace and show kindness to those who have refused to show it to us. And Lord, that the gospel would be spread and that our suffering wouldn't be wasted. God, God, I thank you that my suffering in my life has been used to help other people and those who are struggling in the audience today. Lord, I pray that they would just open themselves up to healing so that their wounds and their hurt and their suffering could be used to bring you glory and for their own good and for the good of other people. And Lord, I thank you for this special time today on this podcast. And I do pray that many people would experience freedom through what they hear today. And it's in the powerful name of Jesus. I pray and ask all these things. Amen. Amen. Ethan, thank you so much, man. I want to throw one more thing at you. If you got one more minute, if you got a minute, this is going to be the speed round. I call it. I may start doing this when I have guests on because I think it'd be fun. So for fans of the recovering fundamentalist podcast, they may be interested in some of this. So I've got seven, seven questions. Your favorites. So get to put your, to get to thinking here for a second. So here we go. The speed round. Favorite movie. Favorite movie. Oh, it's legends of the fall. People make fun of me for that, but it's just something about the relationships. It's something about the, the hunters, the war, the being at sea. I love the movie legends of the fall. Favorite sports team. Favorite sports team. I would have to say UNC Tar Heels. What? Basketball. Yes. I'm a, I'm a Florida state Seminole football fan, but when it comes to basketball, I've been a UNC Tar Heel since I was a kid. Oh man. That is a say one more reason. Well, we're, we're brothers here. This, I knew we were bros, man. Absolutely. I've been a Tar Heel since I was born. I'm from North Carolina originally. So that's awesome. Okay. Favorite food. Favorite food. I would have to say seafood and probably lobster. Lobster. Yes. Favorite snack. Favorite snack. Wow. Everything I eat is my favorite. Ask anybody that knows me. What I'm eating right now is my favorite meal. Brian Edwards makes fun of me all the time for this. But if I had to say favorite snack, I honestly can't even do it. I have no idea. I like so many things. So if anybody wanted to send you a snack, just whatever would be great. Honestly. Yeah, man. I'm trying to think of something. Okay. My go-to in the gas station is peanut M&Ms or almond M&Ms. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Favorite Bible story. Favorite Bible story would be obviously other than Jesus, because that's my favorite Bible story. But my favorite other Bible story, because he's in a category of his own, would be Joseph, who is a type of Jesus. And I deal with, I connect with his oppression and abuse that, instead of turning into bitterness, turned into love for his brothers. Awesome. Awesome. All right. Most recent book you've finished? Most recent book I have finished. Oh, my goodness. I'm probably reading 12 books right now. So I would say most recent that I have finished would be Biblical Eldership. And I would highly recommend it to anybody. Is that the Nine Mark series? It may be, but it is, I can't remember the author. Look it up. Biblical Eldership. Okay. And I can't remember the author right now. Sorry. I'm going blank. If that's the little blue book. Not the one I had. It was a, it was a bigger book. Okay. All right. I was going to say, if it's a Nine Mark series, I've read that one. Okay. And last one. Here we go. Favorite thing to do with your family. Favorite thing to do with my family right now, because it changes a lot would be rafting. We've done two rafting trips the last two years. And it was like two or three hours going down a very calm river because I've got young children. And man, it was, there, there are some rapids and there's some kind of scary times, but yeah, love rafting, love being outside. And just, it's, it's amazing. Awesome. Nathan, thanks so much. Listen, I don't deserve you coming on here and, and, and talking about this. I've been helped some of the insights that you brought out. I'll be thinking about the rest of the day. So thank you so much for, for making the time to come on the for freedom podcast. And any last words you want to say, John, I'm honored that you would have me on and to your listeners. You have really good taste. John is doing a great job and starting a podcast is not something that's easy, but man, you're doing a great job and keep on going with what you're doing. And a very honored that you would have me on today. I'm a fan. Um, if I have my Bible here, if you were with me, I would ask you to sign it. Oh my goodness. That's a little RFP inside joke. Oh my goodness. Okay, guys, that wraps it up for today. Uh, share the podcast, uh, give it a, give it a rating if you can. And, um, you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and, uh, and Instagram. And until next time to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Oh, Oh, Thank you.

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