14. Confronting Abuse: An Interview with Eric Skwarczynski

This is the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now, here's your host, John Holyfield. Hey everybody, welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host, John Holyfield, and I'm excited about today's episode. I'm just going to introduce it real quick and then we'll get into the interview. Thank you. But around February of this year, I was scrolling through Facebook and saw that a former classmate from Bible College, Stephanie Kittleson, when I knew her, Stephanie Helms in college, had posted on Facebook that she had done an interview about her time in the IFB. And I thought, well, that's interesting. Somebody is interested in doing something like that in a podcast. So I immediately clicked on the link, listened to the episode, and I thought I was just, I was fascinated. And then found out that this guy had, Eric Skorzynski, had developed an entire podcast of listening to abusive stories within the independent fundamental Baptist movement. And I was riveted. So I immediately started to listen to every single episode that he had done thus far. And I thought, you know what, now is the time to tell my story. I'm not bitter. It's been seven years since I had left. And so I said, you know what, this is the time. So I reached out to him. And then the following week, we scheduled a time. And he interviewed me on my time in the IFB. And after that, you know, I thought that that would be it. But it's sort of the burden kept growing and growing in my heart that I wanted to do something to speak out on this as well and do so from my perspective as a pastor, as an elder, as somebody that can, you know, provide biblical theology to combat some of the teachings that I think are wrong in the IFB. So we started, I started the For Freedom podcast in June and got some other things in the works as well. And now we come to a moment where I'm able to interview Eric. And so this is an interview on confronting abuse. So I get a chance to interview Eric Skorzynski, the host of the Preacher Boys podcast. He also is the host of the Good Story podcast. And so he does a lot of work. He has thepreacherboysdoc.com and is working on a documentary on the abuse within the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement. But more importantly, Eric is also the husband to Tara and the father to an energetic little girl named Piper. And he's a family guy. And so we had a wonderful time and just talked about some subjects. Got a chance to get Eric's perspective on a lot of the, on what he's doing and the work he's doing and the nature of abuse and those kinds of things. As so many times he is on the other end and not doing as much talking and listening. Give him a chance to open up and talk about some things. So I hope you enjoy this. Here's the interview with Preacher Boys podcast host Eric Skorzynski. Okay. Okay. And I'm here with Eric Skorzynski. Eric, how are you doing, man? It's good to have you on. Pretty good. I just started working out again, so I'm super sore. But other than that, doing pretty good. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Hey, this is a huge monumental occasion for me because a lot of what I'm doing with my podcast and trying to get biblical counseling certification to branch that into a bigger ministry really was awakened by your podcast, the Preacher Boys podcast. And then you allowed me to come on and share my story. And then I just knew that God was putting a burden on my heart to do something as well to people with similar experiences. So I really, doing a episode series for the For Freedom podcast on abuse, I really wanted to have you on because you have spurred a movement within the independent fundamental Baptist world confronting the abuse. And I think if I title this episode, it's going to be confronting abuse because that's basically what you've done. Before we get into a couple of the questions that I have for you, I wanted to just mention this because I think it's worth mentioning. You started the podcast in January and the impact of the Preacher Boys podcast in these last nine months. I think that the podcast has grown very popular as far as the podcast rankings and those kinds of things. I think you have some stats on that. Yeah, I mean, so it's been in and out of different charts. Like it was top 40 or 50 true crime among all shows through Chartable, which is one of the most respected podcast ranking sites. I haven't cracked into Apple's top charts yet, but I'm sure it'll get there at some point. I've, you know, it's hit 260,000 downloads, which is just crazy. And the site's gotten, I mean, yeah, almost well over 50,000 visits to the website. 99,963 page views. Like it's, it's been pretty, it's, it's just been wild. Like it's, it's, it's something that I, you know, this kind of kicked off with me going out to my car when the GVNLE situation happened and just recording a 10 minute rant, you know, and I'm not the person that goes out and does that about everything. Like I've never done that before. And even like right after I did it and posted it, I was like, was that dumb? Should I have not done that? Cause I always hate seeing people's videos, like in their car responding to stuff, but it really was it for me, it was a boiling point of, I need to talk about this. Like at this point, if anything else happens, I feel like I need to at least have done my part to say something. And, you know, when the podcast took off the way it did, like I did not expect it to, I know everyone says that, but I truly did not expect it to be hitting, you know, in five years, 260,000 downloads. Like I thought it would be my friend's family and a few other people and it's just exploded. And I don't know where to put credit for that. Cause it's just, it's, it's wild. Well, I wanted to bring that part of it up because I think that, I think because people don't realize how much of a familiarity or a connection that people that have, have left the movement or been involved in any type of abuse within a church feels. And it's, it's sort of, and this was the next point was the, the discussion board, a sense of community. I mean, the discussion board's gone through some growing pains, but I mean, well over a thousand members. Yeah. I mean, look, it's, it's, it's one of those weird things with the show. And I was telling someone this a little while back, I was saying, it's kind of bittersweet when you see how many people it resonates with on, on the upside. Like every milestone that feels like it should be in any other podcast, you'd be like, oh, wow. Like we're hitting crazy numbers, you know, there is some of that. But then on the other side, it's sad that so many people relate to the heavy topics we're talking about on the show. And I think where I see that most clearly is through the discussion group that we have. And yeah, it's been through growing pains and, and there's, you know, there's people in there who've just left the church, who, there's people who are still in the church, who are trying to make sense of this. There's, there's a very wide group of people in that. And by, by design, like I wanted it to be a place where literally anybody could go. And for the most part, I think it's been successful in that. Like sometimes I'm even like, oh, it's gotten too negative in certain parts and, you know, got to remind people here, like what it's about. But for the most part, like it's been a very encouraging place, people able to share, like, you know, what's affected them, what's impacted them. And, you know, one thing I just see in every single thread is no matter what someone experienced someone mentions, there's 20, 30, 40 people that are all sharing the same experience. And so it's, it's been a good spot for people to connect, communicate. Kate, obviously this is a heavy subject. So, you know, sometimes people let the worst part of them's out and, you know, get into a fight here and there. But for the most part, it's been a lot of encouragement and it's cool seeing a thousand plus people just supporting survivors of abuse and, and sharing those experiences with each other. Yeah. And I think, you know, we talked about before we started recording about maybe the, how maybe the impact of the podcast has affected investigations starting because there are new investigations that are going on with situations within the independent fundamental baddest movement and sexual abuse. Also, I think the most meaningful impact has been, you know, people getting help, survivors getting help. And I think even in the discussion board, I mean, you're what, 60 something episodes in? Yeah, like 65 or something like that. And probably 90, 95% of that is testimonials, stories, people telling their story of abuse. But you talk about a message board with, there's so many more stories of people that haven't been heard on the podcast. And I think that the whole idea about this thing is, is people in some way or another have been receiving help. Right. Yeah. And I mean, and I just want to say that I mentioned this at the beginning too, like there's, there's a lot of people who've been having big impacts in areas that I haven't. And, and most of the people have gotten help from the show is from me connecting them with someone who, you know, has experienced dealing with trauma, with legal counsel, things like that. And so I definitely don't want to, I definitely don't want to take credit for all of the good work that's been done. You know, I've, a lot of people that have been hugely instrumental. And I mean, even way longer since I've been doing this, you know, Joy Rider with Out of the Shadows has been doing amazing work and like, you know, helping. I mean, I don't know how many girls like get comfortable sharing their story. You know, I've got Amanda Householder with Circle of Hope, a crazy amount of good work there. Jerry Manzo. You know, say again? Jerry Massey. Yeah. Jerry Massey has been doing, I mean, Jerry Massey was like kind of the OG of doing this kind of work. Right. And so there's all those people and, and yeah, and, and nothing that I've been able to do would not be possible without them. And at the end of the day, you know, I know we talked a little bit about Hopewell and things like that. Like at the end of the day, like it takes Survivor's One to come forward and, you know, them sharing their story. But yeah, it's been amazing. And I know people, I know people look at the show and the podcast and, and, you know, see 60 episodes, but that's a fraction of people I get to talk to every week and communicate with. And it really is, I, I don't know. It's hard to communicate like just how many contacts I get every single week. Like there was one week where someone was like one of my friends was kind of harassing me about responding to a message. And I was like, I had stopped because I'm petty. And I counted up like all of my Twitter messages, Facebook messages, emails. And I was like, man, I was like, it's Wednesday. And I was like, I've already gotten like 19 Facebook messages from 19 different people. Like just reaching out about different cases, different, different issues and needing help and things like that. And I'm getting, I mean, I've gotten thousands of messages like from doing this show. And some of the coolest stories are stuff that I can't even share because it's stuff where I've been able to connect someone with like a good lawyer. I've been able to connect people with, you know, someone like Amanda who, you know, is doing amazing work with exposing like reform schools and things like that. And there's even like, I had a private investigator reach out to me just two days ago that said, hey, I've been investigating this organization. And I came across your YouTube video and I have questions for you. And I was able to connect them with two or three people that I knew could help them. And so there's a lot of cool stuff on the show, but there's also like there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that have reached out that have like shared heartbreaking stories. And, you know, I've been able to at least be there to, you know, listen at the very least and at the best been able to connect them with someone who can actually help. So that's it. Yeah. And I'm thankful for it. And I think this this can lead into the next question, because I think sometimes people misunderstand can misunderstand the podcast. Right. And I've heard people from a range of responses. Oh, he's he's just bitter. Why is he trying to attack the church as if the independent, no badness is the church? Right. Different, different responses. So and I know you've stated this before, even on your own podcast, but for just one more time, what is your mission and your purpose in the podcast? Well, I mean, the mission in short is to shed light on abuse, physical, mental and sexual within the independent Baptist movement. And I think people hear that. And the biggest questions I get are, you know, either why do you hate Christianity in general? And, you know, I'm quick to say to have you listen to podcasts because I'm definitely a Christian. But the other is why narrow in like why have such a narrow focus. And I get tons of messages. Why don't you focus on the Catholic Church? Why don't you focus on public schools? Why don't you focus on, you know, fill in the blank with any organization that they perceive has a greater, lesser form of abuse? And I mean, just first of all, the the it's not a contest of who has the most what organization has the most abuse. I do think that with how small the independent Baptist movement is, the amount of abuse is shocking. And I think statistically, I think it's it's it's on par with any abusive organization you can think of. But I think on the flip side of that, too, the reason I'm dialed into this movement is because I grew up in this movement. I know this movement. And, you know, I often ask people, I'm like, would you expect a, you know, Catholic, a former Catholic to do an episode about Baptist abuse? It wouldn't make sense. You're going to start with your experiences and that's all I can do. And also, there just hasn't been a lot of work done in this area. Like, I know there's been people have done a lot of great work, but there hasn't been a consistent hammering away and keeping this in the public eye, the way that there has been for the Catholic Church or for any of these other religious organizations. And then just on the on the question of bitterness, I said this on one of the shows, but, you know, I'm not I'm not bitter in the sense of I want every IFB church indiscriminately to be shut down and all that kind of thing. That's not my heart at all. I am angry that this is something that hasn't been addressed in a meaningful way. It's been it's been addressed by people like Jerry Massey and things like that, but it hasn't been addressed by in-house leadership in a very consistent way. And so I would just say, I mean, at the end of the day, there's only so much I can do to say I'm not bitter. I mean, I think my actions speak louder than words in this area. I had two pastors this last either last week or last two weeks that reached out and said, hey, I don't like your podcast. They straight up said, I don't like your podcast. I'm not a fan of yours. I don't like how you address certain things, but do you have any resources you'd recommend to to help prevent abuse within our churches? And I just respond. Thanks for being honest. And, you know, mail off some resources that would be helpful to them or send them links to things that would be useful. But I think when they reach out, they perceive that I'm some kind of, you know, vindictive, angry, you know, if they have IFB in their name, you know, I'm going to be mad at them. But I have a lot of respect and sincere respect for the guys that have reached out and said, hey, we don't know what to do in this area. Can you help? And usually my answer is no, but I know a couple of resources that will or there's someone I know that could talk to you about this. Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't, the bitterness thing comes up frequently. I don't know how else to address it aside from like, I feel like if people listen to the show, they'd probably not come away with that. Um, but also most of the pastors that reached out, I just try to get them on the phone. Uh, same with church members or, um, I talked to the college student for about an hour. Like, um, you know, if I said, someone's upset about what I'm doing, I like to just get on the phone and just like, Hey, I'm a real person. Let's talk about it and kind of go from there. Um, but yeah, I don't, I don't know how else to address that aside from, um, you know, I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not here to see, um, every IFB church shut down. And there's, I know that there's, you know, in on accounts or other sites that have been out that have tried to do that, but I'm not, that's not been a goal of mine whatsoever. Okay. Well, you sort of, you sort of in that answered the third question I had about how do you respond when somebody says the IFB is not the only group that had sexual abuse or why single out the IFB? So for that reason, I want to throw, I just, I just thought of another question. Yes. Due to, I want to play devil's advocate here because the independent fundamental Baptist movement boasts of itself of being independent. So it's not like a, they wouldn't say that they're high art, hierarchical, uh, denomination like the Catholics or even, you know, the way they characterize the Southern Baptist convention. So you think of, you know, with the sexual abuse scandals, there had to be a response from the Pope, right? There had to be some type of, um, uh, response from many of the leadership in the, in the Roman Catholic church. I think, uh, was it a year ago or two years ago when the Houston Chronicle came out about the Southern Baptist, uh, abuse scandals and Al Mohler actually on his podcast, the briefing spent an entire episode. And it shocked me because it shocked me because I'm used to just whenever people talk about this, we don't gossip. That's air quotes. We don't gossip. We stay quiet about it. And here is Al Mohler on his briefing podcast, addressing the article and not going on the defensive. He actually in that podcast episode, I'll try to see if I can find it and link it. He actually talks about how judgment has come to the door. I think that was the title of his article of the Southern Baptist convention. And he ends by basically saying, we've got to do better. And so with that being said, should abuse be addressed by IFB leadership? If there's independent, if they're independent, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah. And I think it's a tricky thing to explain to someone who's outside of it, but I think anyone who's been within that movement knows it's not independent. There's a, there's a definite structure. Um, you know, I was thinking about literally this morning, you know, these churches say they're independent, but they hire exclusively from one Bible college. Or they say that they're independent, but they specifically have a certain circuit of preachers that come in. And, you know, again, are there, um, I had someone that reached out that said, Hey, my dad started a church on the side of a road in a back country of this area, truly independent. He just happened to be Baptist. Um, I said, yeah, I'm not talking about him again. And I always direct people like, Hey, listen to the show, um, and hear what I have to say. But when it comes to the IFB and leadership speaking out, I see them do it for a ton of other issues. And I, and I see, I see them come together on bus ministry topics on, um, you know, they have soul winning conferences, they have leadership conferences, all these things. We're very certain, you know, uh, they're political conferences and everybody there is from a certain, that independent Baptist denomination. They all go to this area. They all are, you would think that they're a convention. You, they, they all go together. You don't see anyone from outside the independent Baptist world coming to these conventions or to these conferences. And so I guess my, my thing is if they can take the time to unify and address, you know, new taxes on diesel buses or things like that, why can't they come together and address abuse in the church? Um, this is not to say that every pastor is responsible for what happens in every other pastor's church. But it is disingenuous to say that there is true independence in that movement. Um, you know, I, I just listened to the recovering fundamentals podcast with, uh, with Phil Kidd. Um, I'm still not a Phil Kidd fan. I haven't converted to be a fan of Phil Kidd, but. You know, if you just listen to the way that he described his time being part of the independent Baptist movement, it was a huge, like. There was a structure to what you were supposed to do, what you weren't supposed to do there. And even though there's not a Pope or a president or a fill in the blank of the movement, there are definite leaders that control large portions. For me, growing up in the West coast, it was Paul Chappell and Jack Treber. It was which side are you on of that group? Uh, for Indiana, Jack Hiles. Um, and again, it's sure they may not have the title, but if Paul Chappell decides to do, you know, for people leading worship on the stage and as a worship team, there were a lot of pastors who were against that before he said it was okay. And so there's definite, again, like I said, if you're within the movement and you're saying it's not, you know, no one's affiliated, we're all independent. Like you're just being disingenuous. Like, I don't know, I don't know how to address it aside from when you're in it. You know, I grew up as a staff kid in an IFB church. I saw the people that come in there. There was a, there was a very definitive kind of ranking of who's who and, you know, who goes where and where do we hire from? And that kind of thing. So. Yeah. I think the most glaring thing, and I know this gets, you know, the Jack Scott situation gets brought up and it's because it was the most recent and it was the biggest, most high profile. Yeah. I remember in February of 2012, I went to a marriage retreat at Clarence Sexton's. Jack Scott was the featured speaker. Okay. June, July is whenever he's arrested. Following February, we go back to said marriage retreat at Clarence Sexton's. Not a word is said. The, it is, I specifically looked for because they have their, you know, their tables with all the books and all the stuff. And they have the CDs you can buy of every previous marriage conference since they started it. And I went over there specifically and looked for the previous years. Of course, it wasn't on there. I mean, it was just like completely hush. You totally forget. It's like erase from your memory memory that Jack Scott was here last year. Like he never existed in the IFB world. We're just going to wipe that clean. Right. Instead of, you know, I had him at my church a few months before he was, most likely he was in sin when he was preaching here. Let's address this. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's, that kind of goes into the, you know, the argument I always hear is, you know, talking about abuse makes the church look bad. Like if we, if we call out like, oh, this just happened. And we, we kind of report on the, the times where someone missteps or a leader falls or, but my thing is when you try to make things just disappear, especially now in the internet age where nothing disappears, you know, all it takes is for someone to look up a name. You know, look up, fill in the blank. And, you know, that's when it looks bad. Cause that's when it looks like there was a coverup. If you can see a statement, like if Quentin Sexton got up and said, you know, we just wanted to address this. You know, one of the speakers we had unbeknownst to us was, you know, basically praying on a teenage girl from his church. I would have a lot more respect for that. And I don't think that makes the church look bad. I think that makes the church look like it's doing what it's supposed to do, which is to call out wrongdoing and sin. I mean, so, but I mean, in the network, I just remember this as you said this, but one of the things that pushed me to start the podcast was when the Cameron Giovinelli situation happened. And there was literally a pastor from the church letterhead sending out to all of his pastoral friends, you know, a letter saying, Hey, let's raise support to help pay the legal fees of Giovinelli. And it's like, again, if you could become unified enough to, to pay legal fees for a, a self-confessed pedophile, like why can't you come together and say, Hey, what can we do to improve our church nurseries? Like what process can we go through to make sure our place is safer than what it is? So it just, to me, of all the conferences held about soul winning and about, you know, dress standards and youth conferences that we see every year held with, you know, 2000, 3000 kids bussing in. It seems like we could put a little bit more effort into talking about this issue. I totally agree. I totally agree. I want to move on to move back to number two that I, that I had. And so this is more of a personal question. And I've, I've heard, you know, different testimonials of, from you, from different episodes you've done on the podcast. So I'm interested to see how specifically you would ask this. So why you obviously are passionate about this. All right. Right. If you've listened to your podcast at any time or even listened so far to the interview thus far, you're obviously passionate about this. You've put in the time, the effort. I'm guessing your own money into, into, you know, going forward with this effort. Right. Where does that passion come from? Why, why this subject? Why are you passionate about this? So I'll give a, just a condensed version, but I mean, what, so I, I mean, I grew up in the movement. I was a staff kid. I, I spent seven days a week for the first 18 years of my life, like on a campus of an IP church and school. You know, and I was, things were great. Like I had a, you know, all my friends are from there. I still am connected with a lot of people there. Um, you know, I had a good relationship. I mean, with my youth pastor, I was at, like, I was, I laughed because I had so much like shame about, you know, being like this wicked, you know, kid. And it was like, I, I was like the epitome of like, oh, I'm a good Christian boy. You know, whatever we think of from that kind of perspective. And, you know, I mean, I was, I was the kid who was like, literally like Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Saturday, soul winning. I was going to my youth pastor's house Saturdays to, you know, just hang out. Like I just hung out with my youth pastor and like, we'd, you know, make pizza and, you know, talk and all that stuff. And, you know, I, I, I was not just a bitter rebellious kid. Like I, I was not. Um, so basically what happened was when I was in, uh, the summer after 11th grade, um, basically Jesse rule was sent to, to our school. And, um, for those not familiar with the story, I mean, you can, it's one Google search away, but basically he, uh, came to our church suddenly started volunteering in our sixth grade Sunday school was leading music. And, um, you know, I knew Jesse from previous stuff with like basketball tournaments and stuff. And so I texted one of the guys on his team and was like, Hey, are you going to miss your youth pastor and coach that just left after all these years? And he's like, no, he didn't say goodbye to us. Like we're not, you know, we're kind of upset. And so I Googled to see if the church had said something or if his staff page was moved or, and the first day it popped up was an article, you know, saying that he had a physical relationship. Relationship with a babysitter who was like 16, I think at the time, 15, he was 30. Um, and so for me, it was like, one, it burst my bubble of like, Oh, this is my safe religious zone. We're like, nothing bad happens here. Like sure. The Catholics, we hear about them all the time. Pastors talk about that or hear the public school system or, you know, fill in the blank. So first it just made me go like, Oh, this happens in IFB churches. Like I'd never even thought about it. Um, but then it, two things happen. One, I spent the majority of the rest of that year and that summer trying to get someone to listen to me about like this, not being good. And, um, you know, I, my youth pastor to even my, even my parents at the time, um, to everybody, everywhere. I was like, this guy just came here suddenly and we're not going to say anything about it. And eventually he got pulled from like leading music for a while, um, and teaching Sunday school. And I just kept pushing. I was like, we need to tell the church about this. Like, not because he did something at our church, but I just kept saying, I was like, it doesn't make sense to not say anything or to let people know we're a church. We have a Christian school. I'm like, I feel like parents would want to know this and just nobody would like, take it seriously. Nobody would listen. Um, and eventually he, um, was back up on stage singing. Like, no, my thing was he got sent here. He didn't say why he was here and he just kind of got away from what he did and just relocated. And so eventually ended up back on the platform. Like if you tune into a live stream of the church, now he introduces every single sermon. He's still front and center. Um, you know, and it, for me, it was a lot of me just trying to get people to wake up like, Hey, this is bad. Like I know I'm an 11th grader or going into 12th grade, but like, it's common sense. This is not smart. Um, and then, uh, the next thing that happened out of that is because nobody would listen. I started becoming a little bit isolated. So my youth pastor cut off contact with me for the most part, like I wasn't going to his house anymore. He was telling me I was bitter. Um, you know, that relationship kind of got severed over this. Um, you know, other people were starting to get upset. Um, it hurt my relationship with my dad for, for quite a good period. I mean, we were still, we've always been the type, like we always go to bed, say, I love you and all that stuff. But it definitely fractured that relationship quite a bit because I just was like, how do you not see this as an issue? Um, but as I became isolated, I started looking into these cases of abuse in the IFB and, you know, I started seeing names of people I recognized. Like, here's a speaker that I recognize. Here's, you know, I read, I fired God by Jocelyn Zichterman. I was like, oh, I recognize Jeff Call's name. He came to our church and spoke all the time. Um, and I just, I just kept going through, um, David Gibbs, like David Gibbs was like a favorite speaker when we would go to conferences. And I was like, wait, he was involved with this and with that. And, oh, my pastor's pastor, they always mentioned in his sermons is Jack Hiles and, you know, and Jack Hiles did what? And it just kind of like, it quickly made me question the safety of where I was at, um, which I think it should have. And it just made me wonder, like, why is my pastor like lovingly quoting Jack Hiles when Jack Hiles was like not a upright moral man? You know, why, why, why are we having David Gibson when he defended pedophiles at fundraisers to pay for their legal fees? You know, it's, it's, and so when I left, when I finally left, um, my senior year, I was bitter. Um, and I, I was really upset because, you know, I felt like my, I didn't know who to trust. I didn't have all of my connections and leaders that I looked up to had kind of just failed me in a lot of areas. And, you know, my youth pastor, I looked to is like basically like a second dad. I mean, he cut off ties over this. So I was bitter. I had bottled this up for a year and a half and, you know, tried to get someone to hear me. Um, but over the, over the period of the next couple of years, like it switched from just being, it switched from being bitterness. Like I don't feel, I truly don't feel bitter now. I truly don't feel, but I do feel passionate that same way about like, listen to me. Like there is a, there is a problem here and nobody's listening. No, everybody's acting like everything's fine, but it's not. And, and I think once you see, and I think that's what's happening with the podcast, people are seeing the veil get lifted a little bit and they're saying like, oh, it's also that church. And it's also this conference speaker. I loved it's also this camp speaker that I loved. And, and again, do I think that we need to be bitter toward the movement as a whole? Definitely not. I don't think so. But do we need to ask really hard questions about like, why has this been allowed for so long? Yes. I think that does need to happen. Um, and so I guess my passion is that same thing that was like 11th grade, me feeling helpless saying, Hey, there's, there's a wolf among lambs kind of thing to steal Stacy, Stacy Shiflett's book title. Uh, you know, there's a, there's a wolf here and nobody's taking it seriously. And so the passion for me is just let's show it for what it is. Let's have an honest conversation about it. And let's fix the thing, the things that are allowing this to keep happening over and over and over again. Uh, I said that was a short answer, but I guess I lied. Do you think, and I applaud you because at a young age you did that. It, it, I, I did not, I failed in that aspect because as a college student drinking the Kool-Aid, if you, if you will, you know, was involved. Well, I wasn't involved. I was, you know, just a couple of people removed from knowing about a situation between a staff member and a teenager. And here we are, me and a couple of other guys sitting there talking about, you know, somebody should say something. Somebody should say something. And the whole reason why we don't is because we feel like we're going to get in trouble and look like we're going to be on the wrong side of a staff member. We want to look good in their eyes and they're going to be mad at us for gossiping. Right. Well, eventually somebody says something to somebody and that person goes to a staff member. The guy's fired and moved out quietly. Like the church has never given an explanation whatsoever. He's just gone. And one of the other guys that was in the group that we were trying to found out about it, that we were trying to get to say something, you know, he had his face ripped off by another staff member. And the phrase that was used was, you're gossiping, ruin this man's life. Never mind the fact that that guy came to the ministry because he was writing love notes to a teenager there and the pastor had to do something with him. So he called the pastor of the church that I was at in Arkansas and said, you know, hey, can you take this guy? And they took him. And then eventually he went into another ministry after he left there. Now, I would like to see something done about that. But the girl that was involved has never, you know, come forward. And I totally, you know, that's her situation. But, you know, I look back at this. I was telling a friend of mine the other day, I said, there's not a week that goes by where I don't think about that situation. Yeah. And think about why was that not, like you said, you know, here you are a teenager trying to get people to listen because this should be a no brainer. Yeah. Well, and it really did. It's when that happened. And again, it was so it was such a weird period of my life because up to that point, I was working the bus route. I was like singing choir. I was like I was I was wearing my, you know, rocking my suit to church. Like I was I was doing everything above and beyond. I was going I was going door knocking more than just Saturday. Like I was going I was doing a ton of stuff, mowing lawns like I was, you know, I was I was doing anything that needed to happen. And so it was weird seeing that this was the issue that turned everyone on me, you know, and it became, oh, you're bitter. You're just a bitter this and that was like, I've never been the bitter kid. Like I talked to my dad about it just recently. And I was like, I was like, isn't it weird? We never had a stage of life where like we had to slam the door like I hate you, dad kind of phase of our relationship. I was like it never we never had that kind of time. And I said, I can't honestly think of any. I've told my wife this to I was like, I can't think of a time I've ever had like a legitimate argument with my dad over like, you know, where we've been like raised our voices, like maybe where he's raised his voice at me a few times, which I probably needed. But but it's like when it came to this topic, you know, it was like people were so blind to it being an issue. And there was actually one of the things that like sticks with me. And I actually have when I started the podcast, I had a bunch of friends reach out from school that were like, remember that time when and it was I was at school. And, you know, I saw Jesse on the property and he was like doing he was doing like repairs or something during school hours. And I like left my classroom and went to my dad's office, which was on the far end of the auditorium. And I literally like shut his door. And again, I don't even I don't feel bad about this happening. But at the time, it was like I was so mad. And I literally just started yelling. I was like, why don't you guys see this as a problem? And the thing I said in that conversation, which was like the only time I've ever had a conversation like that with my dad. And the conversation with my youth pastor was you guys are supposed to keep us safe. And I don't feel like you can do that. And that was that's the thing that just when I see cover ups, when I see people try to slip things out quietly, when they all you're doing is sending a message to people, to teenagers in your church, to anybody in your church is we cannot keep you safe. Like we're here to make sure that we keep our ministry like offerings coming in the same. We're here to make sure that we don't have liability. We're here to make sure A, B and C, but our priority is not your safety. And especially when you're a teenager and like you're kind of reliant on the safety that your parents and your church provides. That's a scary place to be. And so, you know, yeah, it's it's it was it was weird. It was it was just a weird period of time. And I don't fault you know, I look back at the situation like there's a lot of things I could have done differently and like how I could have reported it and things like that. But it's it's just a weird when you see it happen the first time. It's a weird thing to try to figure out, especially when you're a teenager, even like you said, even a college student. You know, I think most college students and IFB churches are high schoolers in average high schools. I mean, the amount of the amount of. Programming you've done to just accept how things are is pretty insane. Yeah. Yeah. I can talk a lot. This is why I have a podcast. Before before I move on to the next thing, just to add a curiosity. OK, so this guy came to your your church when you were a teenager. He came from his dad's church, I'm guessing, Tim rules. Yeah. Yeah. From Tim's church. Yeah. Was there ever a police investigation? Yeah. So so what happened was so Jesse Jesse's wife found and I I won't say this because I don't want to. I don't want to give away someone that I know, but someone that I know was at the actual tournament where this happened. And I don't know if they'd like me sharing the name on the show. But anyway, they just told me just a week or two ago. They're like, I was at the game where he was confronted by his wife. And so basically what happened was she found texts on his phone between him and their babysitter. And basically went, pulled the girl and him out to the hallway of the game. And like Jesse, long story short, Jesse didn't come back to the game to finish coaching. And anyway, within like a I mean, a night or two, Jesse's dad like basically called my my pastor at the church and said, hey, me and my son have ministry differences and I think he'd be better off like serving a different church. Do you have any, you know, would it be good for him to attend there? This based on the story of my pastor, which I don't have reason to doubt based on when he told me and everything. But anyway, so he told him like, hey, you know, I think it'd be good for him to come down there, serve at a different church for a while. And so within a few days after that, I mean, he was there, the the warrant was served from the police to the old property. Someone explained it to me, but like there was some legal loop around he was trying to do with like moving to a different area. So the warrant couldn't get to him and all that stuff. But anyway, yeah, he did. There did not be an investigation. He did plead guilty. He did. He got like a couple, I mean, a few months of community service. And I don't I don't remember now. It's been a while since I've looked at this case specifically. I don't remember if he had to register as a sex defender or not, but I know he was on probation for five years. And I believe one of the one of the restrictions of probation was that he wasn't supposed to be at a school or like within. It's kind of like sex offender guidelines, because I remember there was something that they had done where I was like, he's not even supposed to be here. But anyway, yeah, there was police. He did plead guilty. And yeah, all that information was available. Like I shared the article with my pastor, with my youth pastor. And it for whatever reason, he's still he's still there today introducing services. So there's no words, Eric. There's no words. OK, so let's move on. This is this has been about the series that I've been doing of episodes has been about abuse. OK, so your podcast confronts abuse by giving a voice to the abuse. And so I don't know. Maybe you could talk about sort of what you were thinking when you started to where Eric is now. But what have you learned from nine months of interviewing abuse victims? Or let me say it this way, abuse survivors. Yeah. I mean, there's been a there's been a lot of things. I would say the most consistent things come to mind first. One, I think most people think that nobody's going to listen to them, which, again, I think people might expect that answer. But most people don't expect that anyone's going to listen or they are so they feel that the majority of people who listen will be against them. And and honestly, like coming out of some of these churches like that might be true. The majority of people, you know, might be against you within your church over this, unfortunately. But the cool thing is now, like I tell people, I'm like, there's literally thousands of people that follow my page that are ready to support anybody that comes forward. And I've seen people like, hey, reach out to me if you need to talk, if you need this. And so I love that now there's a community of people where I can say, hey, there's at least, you know, a thousand people on a Facebook group that are willing to like, you know, talk to you and make sure you're good and everything. So that's one thing. The second thing and the hardest thing about the show is like there's a lot of people that reach out with stories who aren't ready to share yet. And and I'll just preface this with saying, like, some people, it's not the right time. And and I've talked to trauma specialists and things who say like, hey, maybe the right first step isn't doing a podcast or sharing their story in that format. I've had others that have, you know, I had someone that came on my show because they're their therapist said that it would be good for them to do. So but the one thing I will say is a lot of people don't come forward until they know that someone else is being affected. And I want to share this because not to guilt anybody who hasn't shared their story yet, but I like sharing this because I think most people don't think about this way. So I have some people that have reached out who've said, oh, you know, I was I was molested or I was abused or, you know, fill in the blank with one of the topics we cover. But then they'll say, I just want to put it behind me and move on. It affected me. You know, it's a it's me overcoming this now. And, you know, what I just always encourage people is like, statistically, the odds of you being the only victim of that person, the only person who's been hurt by this person is very, very, very low. So I had Dr. Kelly Palfey on probably 20 episodes ago now, and she she works alongside the I think she was actually on the Royal Canadian Mountain Police, but she worked in Canada with the police there in a huge investigation of this pedophile ring. And the people she interviewed on average had 150 victims each. And when I read that, I was like, I mean, that's I don't I can't even I was like, I can't even think of 150 people to name like I like that's a crazy number. And I see that stat in all kinds of situations, like people who have one or two victims usually have a lot more. And we just saw this with Hopewell. Once someone came forward, there was another one and another one and another one. And so I guess the other thing I've learned is just that people need to say I don't nobody owes anybody anything with their story. But I just hope that the people who think that they're sharing the story won't help anybody. That's just not true. I've seen it time and again, where, you know, even if it's not the same abuser, someone sharing their story will lead to four or five people reaching out to me and say, hey, I'm ready to share my story or hey, I'm ready to talk to this lawyer, this police officer or this fill in the blank. And so because there can be nuances or similarities. Right. Speak to someone. Right. Exactly. And so, yeah, so the first thing I would say is just that, you know, people are ready to hear you. Number two, I would just say that there are there is merit in sharing your story. You're not I think some people believe like, oh, I'll sound bitter or I'll sound like this. So, yeah, I would just say that's the other thing I've learned is like a lot of people just think there's not going to be value value in sharing. I think that's that's the best thing we can do is to share our stories and encourage other people. And then I would say, like, the last thing I've seen is that there seems to be. There seems to be a very misguided view of how much power your pastor actually holds. And I've had people that reach out who say, you know, I would love to, you know, I've had people I'd love to talk to the police. But, you know, I know my pastor is going to deny it or, you know, I know the police aren't going to investigate it. And it's like, no, they're going to investigate it. And your pastor might deny it, but they're going to look at the evidence around it. And it's just funny, there's a lot of people, I think, who I may find it's not the right word. It's just it's just interesting that so many people are so scared of the quote unquote man of God in the church and buy into the lie that he's above the law in some way. And that's been that's been something I've been surprised by a lot of people saying is like, oh, I'd love to come forward. But my pastor would deny it. And, you know, or especially with teenage victims, like, oh, I just figured the police will come and they'll ask the pastor and he'll send them away. Like I've had like two or three guests that have said, I thought my pastor would send the police away if they came. And it's like, no, he can't do that. Like, I know he builds himself up like he could do all of that, but that's not within his his grasp. So, yeah. So that's like the three biggest things. It's just like I feel like people either feel like they can't share their story, like it won't have power or that like if they do, it's going to somehow backfire on them in some some way. And all of those things have been proven even in the course of the show not to be true. So do you do you have a message or do you have something that you'd like to say to because I think some of the some of my audience, I think, are some that are in vocational ministry. Do you have anything that you'd like to to say to those that are working in vocational ministry concerning this area based on, you know, the experience and what you in the last nine months, what you've learned and gathered that would be helpful going forward? Yeah, I mean, the number one thing is just don't assume that, you know, how to handle these situations. And, you know, the I again, I and I never ended up going to Bible college, but I know plenty of people who have. And I've talked with a lot of people in ministry. And I can just say with certainty, Bible college doesn't prepare you or seminary doesn't prepare you to handle situations like this. And look, here's here's the reality of it. If you put 100 to 200 people in a room, you know, for years and years and years, there's going to be some bad people that slip in. And and that's that's not the fault of you. That's not the fault of your staff. It's just a reality of the world that we live in. When it becomes your responsibility is when you're not taking the time to, one, prepare safeguards to keep those people from actually harming anybody. And when you do get one of these cases on your desk and someone says, hey, this happened, that's when you choose to become either an ally of the victim or the abuser. And so what I would say to pastors is, one, educate yourself. That doesn't mean like just I think most pastors focused on like, oh, how am I going to counsel somebody who's been through this or how am I going to, you know, which is part of it. But do some basic research. The book right now I'm reading called, oh, shoot, I'm going to blank on it. It's from Deepak Raju. It is called On Guard. Yeah, there you go. Perfect. Yeah, On Guard. That book is an excellent, excellent resource. I just sent that to a pastor just the other day who asked me some questions. It's very practical. It even gets into like how to lay out a nursery in a safe way, check in and check out systems, things like that. You know, and then also do some research from, you know, ANC Salter's book, Predators, like, you know, how to identify this stuff. You know, just resources that will help you both to understand like the security side and then also like how to help survivors and create safe spaces there. And then just the other thing I would say is when a case comes across your desk, do not, just don't handle these situations in-house. You are, you know, you have a vocation that is from God and there are also, law enforcement is a vocation ordained by God and it's been put there for a reason. And so regardless of what anyone says, like, if it's a child or anyone under 18, like call the police immediately. Like it shouldn't be, oh, here's our response team or here's our team of deacons or no, the first call should be to the police. And as a pastor, let your people know that they have the permission to call 911. They have the permission to call the police department. You know, there shouldn't be a situation where, hey, if abuse happens, go to this elder in the church, call the police, then go to the elder. And then just on the last part of that is when you're trying to help victims of abuse, you know, try to get them set up with a legitimate trauma counselor who's outside the church, who doesn't have a personal connection, someone who they can talk really openly with. You may not, most pastors probably aren't equipped to handle a trauma survivor. You can still speak, you know, biblical truth and, and walk their, you know, them and their families through things, but try to find someone who's a third party, who specializes in this, who can help them. And then the very, very last thing I'll say is just listen to people who come to you. Like don't, before you know the facts, you don't know the facts. So, so make sure when someone comes forward to you and says, hey, something happened, that needs to be a moment. You don't question their, you know, don't question their integrity. Don't question, you know, did they quote unquote ask for it? You know, where, what were they wearing? Like get on the phone with the police, get people who know how to identify this stuff and sit down then and start looking at the information in front of you. You know, the, I wrote a blog article a while back called, they don't look like monsters. And the truth is that the people who are doing this stuff, who have gotten away with several victims, they got by for a reason. It's because no one suspects them. So don't just take your experience. Don't take your, you know, oh, he's a good volunteer and let that overweigh what a teen girl is saying to you or what a child is saying to you or a man in the church is telling you. You need to really just understand that these people slip by and you're not, again, all I can keep saying is you're not prepared to handle this. And I know that because I'm not, I'm not the person to handle identifying these situations. And the more research I do, the more freaked out it makes me sometimes at how hard it is to spot this stuff. But yeah, I mean, just listen to people and don't cover stuff up. I think that would sum up everything I just said. I echo that a thousand percent. And I think that one of the reasons, one of the things we see or have seen in the IFB movement, which is garnered, you know, why you're doing what you're doing is because you talk, you mentioned get educated, educate yourself. And while we see what we see is because there is no education or there is a miseducation because I think more, hear the phrase more is caught than taught. And I'm telling you, in a lot of these institutions, a lot of these Bible colleges, they're not talking about this in the classroom, but they're seeing these young preachers that are going through there are seeing how leadership handles some of these situations. And so when it happens that they're years later, they say, in fact, I'll say this. I was in some of my research on the history of the IFB movement. I came across some writings of Jack Hiles on a book he called he wrote called Justice. And he basically taught how to move some. I mean, what he taught in that book is basically the handbook for moving people out quietly. I mean, it was so in that way, it was almost formally taught. But I could have picked up that same idea of seeing how it was handled at the place that I was at. And that's how you do it in ministry. And I think that's a problem. And you have to educate yourself. I'm reading one for our church right now as one of the elders at our church, becoming a church that cares well for the abused. And it's a conglomerate of different people, law enforcement, attorneys. Rachel DeHollander is a contributor into this book. And Chris Moles. And one of the guys on there, I think his name is Mike Edmondson, talked about, you know, whenever if you rolled up to your church and you see the windows busted out and you walked in and you noticed that the sound equipment's gone, what's your first call? It's to the police, right? When you notice that illegal activity has just happened, your first response is to the police. But for some reason, when it comes to the illegal activity of sexual abuse, that has not been the first reaction of the church as a whole. And I think, why has that not been? Right. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, and I guess you proved me wrong with talking about the book, which I need to check out. But with Jack Hiles, I was going to say, like, Hiles Anderson doesn't formally teach how to move around abusers from church to church. But look how many churches have copied the exact same mode of operation that Hiles did moving people around. And yeah, that's right. It's caught, not taught. It's, oh, well, that's what he did. And a lot of these guys call these guys and ask, what would you do? Like, send them off, get them out of your church, do this. And so, yeah, just educate yourself and make sure you educate yourself from a good source. You know, someone who does have experience with this and knows how to address these situations. And in this day and age, ministry workers have no excuse not to be educated because we have a wealth of resources coming out that are already out to do that. And I am so thrilled with your work. I appreciate what you're doing. I think you're doing, listen, I'll say this openly. I think that what you're doing with the Preacher Voice podcast and the subsequent different outworkings of that is, I think it's biblical work. I really do. I think it's Ephesians 4 work, you know, exposing the unfruitful works of darkness. And so I pray for that. I pray for those that are in the IFP movement that they would, you know, they would change. And, you know, I know that we say that there are some good ones out there. I pray that there is change and there is change for the good there. And so I appreciate you taking the time to come on here and talk about those things. I think it's been awesome. I think it's been helpful. Hey, any update on the documentary? So, I mean, COVID's kind of killed it. I tentatively, I'm still, 2021 is still the goal. I don't know that the, my goal is to launch it like the first like few months of January, of first few months of January, first few months of 2021. It'll still be 2021. It'll probably just be more summer at the rate I'm looking at now. I have, my goal is to have quite a bit of shooting done like over the next two months. And then the editing is going to be what takes a long time. But yeah, 2021 for sure still is the goal. It's probably just going to move from like a spring to summer thing. I'm just going to work a little harder on the edit to get it faster. But, you know, it all depends on COVID right now. It really depends on when things start to really open up. But you're in California, so that's a slow process. Well, I'm in, well, I'm in Nevada now, actually. Oh, you're in Nevada. But actually a good chunk of interviews are in California. And I'm just, okay, whatever about, you know, the COVID. So I don't know. I just always, maybe it's because I am from liberal California, but I'm like, do I risk it? Do I risk it? I don't know. So I don't know. But we'll see. You know, the podcast has kind of taken a life of its own too. And I'm, you know, basically putting out an audio documentary every week. So, but yeah, once I can, once I'm able to really shoot the way I need to with the doc, it should be summer 2021. So like this time next year, I'm hoping it'll be all set to go. But yeah, we'll see. I'm kind of waiting for updates too to see where we can get moving. Awesome. Again, thank you for coming on and thank you for the spending time today. Yeah, for sure. All right, guys, that wraps up today. And well, I did forget one thing. Where can, if by some chance, somebody that's listening to my podcast does not follow you already, where can they follow your podcast or your output of information? Yeah, I mean, the number one place is just my website. It's Preacher Boys Doc. It's Preacher Boys, D-O-C.com. Um, that's like the place you can find resources I just mentioned. Um, you know, both for churches and for survivors. And I'm working to really flesh that out a little bit more. Um, you can find blog articles. You can find the podcast there. You can visit the abuser database, uh, which kind of lists out a bunch of churches and things there. Um, and then everywhere on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, it's at Preacher Boys, D-O-C. So at Preacher Boys Doc. Um, that's the next best place in YouTube as well. If you just type in Preacher Boys, uh, it'll pop up. Um, definitely go over there because I've got a lot of thumbs downs on, uh, on YouTube. So definitely head over there and drop a subscribe and a like here and there. So. All right, guys, that, uh, wraps it up for today. Um, again, you can, uh, follow the podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Uh, give us a like, give us a share. And, uh, until next time to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thank you. Thank you.

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