127. Freedom In The Church - Bible Colleges

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Saferick and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast today. So glad you're back with us. We are in our series, Freedom in the Church, and I have just really been enjoying every single week. We enjoy your comments, too, on social media. We enjoy your comments, your likes, your shares, your subscriptions, the suggestions that you give us every week. We read each and every comment that you post to social media. So we really appreciate all the support that our audience has given us. But we have just been in a great time, great season of life. This is we've got Easter coming up this coming Sunday. Great day. We had Palm Sunday this past Sunday. Great day in the house of God. We have Lord's Supper at our church and a good time was spent together together and just a great time in church and things going on. James, what's going on in your neck of the woods? Yeah, we had Palm Sunday as well. Great time there. We just finished our core values. So I spent 12, 13 weeks talking through the core values of the church. There's four of those core values that we've implemented and just some great response in our church. And then we sort of ended that with a Sunday night celebration. You may remember the Hips family from the meetup at Asheville. They're at Nathan's church that led us in worship. I had them come in and they led, they came in and man, they knocked the roof off the house. They brought the walls down. It was incredible. They sang, we worshiped, man. It was a great time. We had a great house full, about 80 or 90 people here, which was fantastic for our church. And we just worshiped. We did contemporary. We did Southern gospel. We did bluegrass. They did acapella. I mean, everything you can think of genre wise, old hymns, it was there. And if there wasn't a song that you didn't know or was familiar with, then you just don't know music. And so that was a great time we had. Then we ended that night with a family fellowship with food and gorged ourself and hung out and laughed and had such a great time. So Sunday, Palm Sunday was fantastic for us. One of those highlight days. It was one of those days, Brett, was a great service, a great atmosphere. Uh, but I felt you may have been like with, with me on this. And if not, you're, you know, I'm just probably out there on an island by myself. Um, but you ever preach one of those messages and it just sort of feels like you just fell flat a little bit. Like it, maybe the points didn't drive home the way you thought they were going to, or the crowd wasn't quite into it. I just told my wife, I said, it felt like the atmosphere was just a little different on Sunday. And I said, it may have just been me. Um, but, but I finished and I had more comments and response after that message than I've had probably in a long time. I actually had a message from one of our deacon's wives that, I mean, pretty much had me in tears, just thanking me and, and thanking me for the message and the series and the challenges that I've given over the last couple of weeks and how I've challenged her and her family. And then sort of the part that, that just really hit me was the, she said, you know, you are an answer to a prayer from our family. We've prayed for someone like you to lead our church. And I mean, I just, I broke down like Allie because she got, she put me and I both in the message. And I was like, man, I'm just, I'm humbled because this morning I sort of fell flat. Like I didn't feel like this was even the right thing. And then all of a sudden people were reaching out and it was just sort of the Holy spirit and the Lord just saying, I'm taking care of it. It doesn't matter where you're saying and what you're doing. Let me take care of it. And man, it was just a great time, great time of fellowship, great time of worship and looking forward to what the Lord has planned for us on Easter Sunday, sunrise service. We're doing communion to finish out the service on Easter. So that'll be the last thing we do on Easter Sunday is communion as a church. So I'm really excited about that. Well, you know, we had, I've definitely felt like that. I almost felt that a little bit, you know, this. This past Sunday, Sunday before I had a missionary come in and I let her give a report. We cut some songs and I let her give a report. And while it was good and, you know, we've supported her for a long time, it did cut into my message a little bit. I had to cut it a little short. So this Sunday I was determined, look, I'm just going to I'm just going to preach. I'm not going to worry about length. And then the song service ran long and I'm like, I'm still preaching. And then we've got Lord's Supper after that. Right. And so, you know, it was 1235 when we finally dismissed, which is a rare thing for us. I like to cut it, keep it close to 12. But at the same time, it was such a beautiful service. People didn't care about the time. You know, when the Holy Spirit gets a hold of a service, nobody's looking at the clock. Amen. You know, and that, you know, I definitely had the same response that you were having that, you know, I thought I had missed the mark just a little bit. But people were saying that it was just what they needed. And so I like like I said, you like to have the Lord's Supper. And that's what I like about our autonomous churches, because there's no set way to do it. You have your Lord's Supper on Easter and I have my Lord's Supper on Palm Sunday. And so, you know, there's no right or wrong way to do it. Bible just commands us to do it. And so I'm I'm thankful for that. Had a great Sunday this past Sunday. Looking forward to what we have this coming Sunday. Yeah. Well, talk about looking forward, Brett. We're 11 days from the rapture happening. 11 days. 11 days. I don't know if you've been counting down. I have been. It's been fantastic. Just knowing the Lord's coming back in 11 days. Those of you who don't know, April 8th is the day of the return of the Lord. There's going to be a solar eclipse that crosses each other seven years apart. Seven years apart. Seven. For all you numerics out there. Uh, the first solar eclipse seven years ago went through seven towns of mercy, repentance. I can't remember the name of it. Um, and so they were all seven towns named the same and, uh, crossed over. I think it was in Kentucky somewhere. Uh, but it was a full solar eclipse. And now we're going through another solar eclipse seven years later. And it's going through the town of. Nineveh. Nineveh. Seven. They're going to be seven, seven cities named Nineveh. There's an eighth city in Canada named Nineveh. There's going to go over. But of course, you know, the Bible only talks about America. America. And the Bible doesn't talk about no Canada. That's the evil top hat of America. Come on. But the Bible only talks about America. So we're not going to worry about that eighth Nineveh up in Canada. We're only worried about the seven Ninevehs, uh, that it's going to pass over in the U.S. Not to mention there's one particular town in Indiana that it's going to pass over. Let's go, baby. Do you know the name of that town? The Rapture town. Rapture, Indiana. And look, if this isn't enough evidence for you to know that the, that, that the, that the Harpazo, the Rapture is about to take place. James, this, this solar eclipse, it's going to pass over the arc. Like your wood ain't wet, baby. If you're, if this don't get you excited, your wood's wet, baby. I mean, that's just all it is. I mean, this should be answers in Genesis. We're talking about answers in Revelation, baby. I mean, Brett, let's take a step further. Jesus wrote seven letters to the seven churches. Come on. He had seven last statements on the cross. How can you deny it? It's going through the seven towns of Nineveh. I mean, I mean, really, really, if we think about it, this is the end. This is the day the Lord comes back. I mean, there's no sign that shall be given to you is the sign of Jonah. The sign of Jonah and Nineveh. I mean, and the stars there. That's what Jesus really meant. Not the three days. He's talking about the seven cities in Nineveh. That is exactly what it is. And so hopefully you're ready. Hopefully you're, you're getting ready for this. And if you haven't been getting your theology on your Facebook reels and TikTok, you need to be getting back there. Okay. Don't get it from church. No. JC said that the other day. He's wrong. You need to get your theology from Facebook reels, TikTok, Instagram. That's where our theology should be grounded at. First and foremost, I've dusted off my show for my show, my show far. I mean, we're ready, baby. We're in this. We're in it to win it, baby. I'm going to be jumping up and then it's going to, they're going to get me off the ground and I ain't going to hit the ground. But yeah, I've been to rapture practice. Half jump, half of your half inch vertical, man. Well, you're going to be up in the air and then boom, it's going to be gone. So we're ready, baby. So hopefully you can tell we're in a little bit of a fun bantering state. And today is a great day. And hopefully you are, Brent, you know, I'm not going to say nothing's going to happen that day. The rapture can happen today. Rapture can happen after this episode's released. And, you know, no problem whatsoever. And so whatever happens there, I'm great with it. The only thing is, you know, there are some unique things. There are some fun things to look at. But at the end, it doesn't matter what we decide. It's all going to be what the Lord decides. That's right. No one knows the day or the hour when the Lord's going to come back. So we look for his return, but we don't set dates. Yeah. The only, I would say the only thing is take away the Jonah and Nineveh and stuff. The Bible says, as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be. Then the son of man returns. And it's passing over the ark. And it's passing over the ark, baby. Come on. I mean, you can't get better than that. Sorry. I had to. I was going more serious of how bad America is right now and how bad the world is. And he threw in the ark again. He went back sarcastic, baby. Love it. Oh, man. It's been good. It's been great. It hits you. Yeah. So, well, we've got, we've been mentioning this last couple of weeks. And so we'll just briefly hit this before we get into our episode. We've got our meetup in Indiana. Hopefully you'll come and meet with us. We've got our Catoosa meetup in Georgia with our For the Sake of the Gospel meetup. One of my favorite conferences. Brett, that weekend is one of my busiest weekends because it's the Catoosa meetup, the RFP meetup. And then it's Sunday. I come back. And then Monday and Tuesday. And Wednesday is the, or Sunday night, Monday and Tuesday is our North Carolina State Convention, the Baptist Convention for North Carolina. Oh, man. So it's like five days back to back to back. I mean, it's just going, going, going. I see. I'm going to take the, I'm going to go to the RFP conference. And then I'm going to take a week vacation afterwards. Going up to the ark to see it not there. A non-existent ark. Exactly. Yeah. And then we've got our Israel trip coming up in March. And so we hope you'll join us in that. Brett, we're in the church, baby. And we're talking about the church. We're talking about freedom in the church. We've had some great interviews. We've got more better interviews coming up. We've got interviews with a discipleship evangelist that is at the Mississippi Convention. We've got an interview with Marcus Merritt. We've got a couple other things lined up. But what are we talking about today in the church? Today we're going to be discussing colleges and seminaries. You know, there are some schools of thought out there that say the church prepares people for the ministry. That you don't need colleges. You don't need seminaries. You don't need things like that. But then there's another school of thought that those things are necessary. But colleges can be abused. And, you know, it's one thing to go for education. It's another thing just to go for status, to go for letters after your name. And so where do we find a balance with seminary and Bible college training? And so that's kind of the subject we're going to talk about today. And I'm just kind of kind of open it up. Give you just kind of my testimony about how I was called to go into the ministry and go to college. And it all started for me at 13 years old when I went to my first youth conference ever. And it was the youth conference at First Baptist Church Hammond, Indiana. Amen. And so I'm there with my youth group for the first time. And I hear the infamous message, America, America, as preached by Jack Skopp. And he comes out in a burlap sack suit, shows an abortion video. It's really hard to watch. And then through that process, I surrendered to the ministry at that point. I do believe that my calling was genuine, that I was genuinely called, had a calling on my life. And I had felt before then, really, even though I wasn't ready to admit it, that a calling on my life to go into the ministry. Now, of course, they had a college. And so I'm like, I'm going back to that college, to the same church that I surrendered to preach at, to go to their college. And one opponent that I had was my dad. My dad did not want me to go way off to that college. So he was the only sane man in your family? He was. But at the time, at the time, I thought he was, you know, the devil, you know, like the devil. Satan's trying to keep me down. He offered me everything. He was going to buy me a four-wheeler, buy me a car, do all this stuff to keep me from going to that cult college all the way up in Chicago. He wanted me, actually. Brett, if you go to New Orleans, you know, go to New Orleans Seminary. That's where you need to go. But I didn't listen to him, and I went to college. And I was— Well, you actually did listen to him. It just took you like 20 years to listen to him. Took me a while. Yeah. But I did listen to him, definitely. But really, I was considering Halse Anderson. I was considering Windsor Hills. I was considering Crown. I was considering PCC. But they had that devil accreditation. And so accreditation was the devil. And so we don't want none of that. We don't want the government controlling our Bible education. And so I had to go to an unaccredited college. And I decided to go to Halse Anderson. And I went to Halse Anderson. And we're going to get into more details about, you know, about our experiences, positive and negative, the Bible college that we went to in just a minute. But, you know, I went to college to get prepared. I wanted to be in the ministry. I went to be—to learn how to be a pastor because that's what I was called to do. And I wanted to be prepared for the ministry. And that is why I ended up going to college. And then, you know, like I said, in just a minute, we'll get into some pros and cons of that. James, why don't you tell us a little bit about your experience with college? All right. So I went to public school my whole life. Junior year of high school, I wanted to go to a Christian school. And the Lord had called me into ministry. And Christian education is what I needed. And so it was a good Christian school down the road. And my buddy there, John, had graduated from there. And a couple of other friends were going there. And so I went to my dad and said, hey, Dad, I want to go to this Christian school. I work a job. I'm going to pay for it myself. And this is my dad said. He said, why don't you save your money? I need you to help out taking your brother to school. My brother's two years younger than me. He said, save your money and put it toward Bible college. And I said, man, I really want to go now. But that's really good advice as well. Education is free. Let me just continue that. So I did continue there and finished out public education. And I had three colleges I was looking at. I was looking at West Coast. I was looking at Champion Bible College, Christian College now, Baptist College. And a church up in the northeastern part. I think it was like Veritas or something like that. I can't remember the name of it. It wasn't Solid Rock. They hadn't started a college yet. And began looking at those. My mom and dad sat down with me. My dad laid out all these options. He said, you can go to the Air Force. They'll pay for your education. You can be a chaplain in the Air Force. He said, you can go to Piedmont Baptist College, which was a local college here in North Carolina. He said, you can go. And he began laying out all these things. And my mom's like, nope, he's not going to military. Nope, he's not going here. Like, my mom was like this bulldog. And I said, guys, I said, let me. I'm going out to Arkansas to see my friends. And let me just look at the college. I may look at it and be like, nope, I don't want to go there. Got there, relatively new college, nice dormitories. Stayed in the dorm one night, I think. And met some good friends. And began to meet some of the administration. Of course, I hung out with Brother Eric that week. And got to hear him. And just seeing what was going on there. Had some friends there. Had some connections. Felt that that was the direction that I needed to go. And so I came back and told my parents that's where I was going to go. Cost to go there was relatively inexpensive. I think it was my first semester was $600 a month. That was room and board and tuition for a year. So whatever that comes out to be, you know, $7,200 or something for the year. And so it wasn't that bad of a college education-wise. And so I did that. I think it went up a little bit in my later years. But it didn't go up too much. And so I could relatively afford it by working and paying for that. And so I graduated debt-free. And I was really just excited about being there in college. One of the things that often gets asked, and I just had an interview. So hopefully I don't mix up all my thoughts. But I had an interview this past week with the We Are One podcast. And I shared my full story. But one of the things that gets asked, Brett, is were you fully understanding of everything that was going to be expected of you when you went to Bible college? You know, the rules, regulations, a lot of people sort of rebel when they go to Bible college. And part of that's because they are forced to go. Their mom and dad make them go. It's not their choice. And so they're going whether they like it or not. What was your perception when you went and you got into Bible college? And how did that make you reluctant or apprehensive or excited about the rules and regulations? Well, you know, I'm kind of the same way. When I signed up to go to Bible college, I knew what I was signing up for. Like I didn't come in to regret the rules. I didn't come in. These, you know, these are for those who don't know, these are independent fundamental Baptist colleges we're talking about. So, I mean, I had already been wearing ties every day. I had already been doing all that stuff, keeping my hair high and tight, you know, not, you know, not listening to, you know, different music and stuff like that. And so when I was first there, you know, I was like down the line, you know, I know what I'm signing up for. I'm here. I don't mind the rules. Now, I will admit, as time progressed, the rules wore on me. And I did start going to the movies, which you weren't allowed to do and things like that. Wicked as hell. I know. I know. How are you even faster right now? You went to the movies? Exactly. Bless God. I mean, turn my art and my ordination back in. Need to. But, man, we went to, I went to the movies and stuff. And so, but for the most part, we, you know, kept all the rules. So, you know, when it comes to that, you know, I kind of knew what I was getting into and knew what I was signing up for. Same here. I said, I've told this to many people. They sent me the rule book when they, I was accepted into college. Before I ever made my first payment, I read the entire rule book. I knew what I was expecting. Like, kids came in and they were mad. They were upset that they're making us do all these things. I'm like, dude, did you guys not read the rule book? And I guess from the other side of it is maybe they were forced to go. Maybe their parents made them go. And they were having to acclimate to something they didn't sign up for. Me, I signed up for it. Like, this was something I wanted to do. This is something that I knew God wanted for me. And so I went and just was heading first to it. And Champion wasn't as legalistic on some things. They were a little more lax. And especially now they're, I mean, they wear shorts and T-shirts and beards to school. Like, it's crazy. But then at the time it was a little different. And there was a shirt and tie and a suit coat every day before we had to go to class. And how to keep our sideburns cut and hair a certain way. And they did hair checks and white glove room checks. Like, they did all those things. And, you know, it is what it is. And didn't mind it, whatever. But out of that, there are some cons and there are some pros. Let's begin talking through some of the positives that have came out of college. Going to Bible college and going to these education learning centers. And then we'll talk through sort of our take at the very end. And so I'll start, Brett. The pros for me were the life that God had for me and the wife that God had for me there. I met my wife at Champion. My wife was reached through the ministry of Erica Pacey. She got saved on the bus route and was reached through the bus ministry. And her whole family began to come to church through the bus ministry. And she started going to the Christian school in fourth grade. And was way behind her education. And they helped her get her education where she needed to be. And which spurred her on to become a teacher. And then went to Champion to become a teacher. And that's where her life got changed. Because she met this wonderful redheaded guy who was going to change her world forever. And so it's more of a pro for her that she got to meet me than it was for me to meet her. But again, I'm tongue in cheek there. But great time. Loved it. And would not have the life I had today if I didn't go to Champion. If I didn't go to the college there. The friends that I've made, Brett. Me and John, of course, our relationship grew. And others that we made. Some friends that have become friends after college. That we went to college with and didn't have a great relationship. I'm thinking of one that's particular that did not like him in college. And then three years later when we're in Idaho, two years later in Idaho, we brought him on on staff as a children's pastor. And I'm like, man, I don't know if I like this guy coming and working with us. But, man, our friendship grew out of that. And, of course, that all started out of Champion. And so a lot of great things. And I could go on and on about the fun times that we had and the memories that were made. Brett, what are some good, fun pro cons about the Bible College experience that you had? Okay. I've got a list of pros here. And I did not pencil in wife because you mentioned yours. I was already going to talk about her. So that's something we're going to have. But, of course, first of all, just like you, my wife that I met at Tri-State. Tri-State, the church at Tri-State is Bethel. And Emily grew up at Bethel. And so I met her while there. You know, we dated after a while and got married there. And I just, like you, I just can't imagine what my wife, what my life would be like without my wife. And she is just perfect for me. She was made for me. We're just a perfect match. She fills in my gaps. You know, the things that I'm deficient in, she makes up for it. There's only a few of them, but she does feel me. Yeah, exactly. And they're not many. Yeah. Another thing is, you know, the friends that I made in college. They're still my friends today. I can call them today and they'll be there for me. These are friends that I've had a lot of friends leave me because of legalism, because I turned my back on legalism. But many friends are still right there with me. And like I have friends today that close college friends that will be there tomorrow. One good friend that I made in actually out, not in college, but out of college was Josh Westmoreland. He's a Hope Church pastor. And me and Josh, Josh grew up at Bethel. And in college, we were not friends. We were acquaintances. We were nice to each other, but we were not friends. And then when we both came out of college, we both got on staff at the same church. And there it was like we became best friends. It's like, you know, you know, getting buddies with somebody in the trenches of war. And so that's what it was like. So Josh is a lifelong friend of mine. And we made all these connections. I made a connection with Matt Dudley through Tri-State. And so the friends that I have, that's definitely a pro. Now, I've really thought about this. What are some positive things that I can say about my IFB Bible College experience? I think forcing me to go out and knock doors every week to talk to people, you know, that really brought me out of my shell. I was an introvert going into college, and it really forced me to learn how to be extroverted, how to come out, how to be outgoing, to kind of draw out my pride, get it done. I mean, from visiting these bus routes, you know, we joke about the bus routes, and we joke about Goldfish Sunday. But in all actuality, while I was in it, I was enjoying it. I was having a good time with these kids, bringing them to church, doing these crazy things. So I do enjoy that. Some other things that I thought were pros was at Howes Anderson, the hermeneutics class had some good points. I won't go as far as to say it was all good, but it had some good points. In fact, I took my hermeneutics class under Jack Scott. Jack Scott was my hermeneutics teacher. And to be honest, I still outline my messages today how Jack Scott taught me to do it because it's functionally good. And so I still do that today. But, you know, I think the location that Howes Anderson was at was basically in Chicago. Tri-State was in Memphis. And me being a Mississippi country boy coming to the big city was good for me. Give me a little culture. Get me out of my comfort zone. I think it was good for me to get lost in Gary, Indiana one night with a buddy of mine is where, you know, leaving First Baptist. You know, who cares if it's the murder capital of the world? You know, it's you know, it was good for me. It was good experience. Or as we say in the South, it was good experience. And it was good for me to go pass out tracks downtown Memphis. And one other thing that I thought was a pro is I took an evangelistic song leading class at Tri-State from one of my professors named Robert Fletcher. He's one of my favorite professors. He's he's a pastor in a Baptist church today. I respect that man so much. Now, we're probably not on the same page right now. I don't agree with a lot of what he does and he doesn't agree with a lot of what I do. But, man, I respect that man. And I remember he taught me evangelistic song leading. Little did I know the first decade of my ministry, I was going to be a song leader. And I used what he taught me in that class a lot. It was the most practical, functional class I ever took in Bible college. And those are some positives that I did take away from my experience. Yeah, one of the things you said that that I probably should have said as well was the the practical level of of learning firsthand how to do ministry. One of the things under Brother Eric while we were there was and I was going to tell you this later, but it came to my mind now again, was just the the way I got to see Brother Eric cast vision bigger than any vision I've ever seen in my life. Oftentimes we get in our little shell of the world and we don't see what massive vision can hold. And that was one of the things that Eric did that that propelled me into ministry in a in a massive way to be able to have this really, really big vision. All right, Brett. So we've looked at the pros of Bible college. What are some cons of Bible college? What are that of our experience? Not in general, but of our experience, what are some of the cons? I'll let you take off on this one first. So one of my first cons from my IFB Bible college experience is both colleges, which, you know, Tri-State was a mini Howes Anderson. But you got Tri-State and Howes Anderson, both of these colleges that I went to. The college students were farm system for the church ministries. Like my education took a backseat to the ministries of First Baptist Church. You know, Dr. Howes, I used to hear him say all the time because I was there right before he passed away. In fact, his last semester there was my first semester and my first Sunday being promoted as a bus captain was the weekend he passed away. But, you know, he would always used to say, I will not use my people to build my work, but I will use my work to build my people. And that is the biggest lie I ever heard in my life. That was totally, totally not true. I've explained on here how, you know, in my testimony that I was expected to give my college tuition money to pay the city back, my city Baptist kids, bus kids school bill instead of my own tuition and lose all my credits because I couldn't pay. I passed my classes, but I didn't have the money to pay. I was expected to do that as a sacrifice and it was okay. And my division leader let me do it. The college let me do it because it was expected of me. Another con that I have is the education was just horrible. It was, you know, Howes Anderson was worse than Tri-State, but it was all preference driven. I mean, I'm taking English classes geared to teach you how to explain to people why the King James English is the best version of English and why it's the better version than all the other versions. And that was the purpose of the English class was to promote the King James Bible because it was English was at its peak at 1611. And the these and the thousand, the vines are better than the you because, you know, and all that stuff. And it's just and the church building classes regurgitated the house church manual didn't give you any practical engine, you know, information, some hands on stuff. And it was just it was really, really the education was definitely not up to par. In my pro column, I talked about how the hermeneutics class had some good points, but the hermeneutics class, you know, they may have taught me how to outline a message, but didn't teach me how to study for a message at all. I came out of Howes Anderson and Tri-State preaching some of the stupidest things that I've ever preached. You know, I look back on some of the things I used to preach and I just cringe at some of the messages that I used to preach. You know, I wasn't taught how to break down a passage. I wasn't taught to look it up in the original language. I wasn't taught to read commentaries. I literally thought you read a verse and then whatever God puts in your mind is what you're supposed to preach. And so I remember one time I got up and I broke down Psalms 119 and I used every word that the that that chapter has for the Bible. And I kind of drew it out on a big board, kind of like I was diagramming a sentence. And it was it was awful. It was awful. It was the most cringiest thing I can remember. People were looking when I would turn to look at the board. They were looking at each other's like, what is he talking about? It was so dumb. I had no clue what I was doing fresh out of college. I had no clue what exhibition, expositional preaching was. I have no clue what contextual preaching was. Both colleges. This is my last one. Both colleges have the, you know, one, two, three, pray after me mentality. I left Bible college, walked away from both these Bible college, walked away with my degree with no clue how to do discipleship. I had no I didn't know how to disciple anybody. I thought discipling was getting them to pray a prayer, going to Goodwill, buying them a shirt and a tie and tell them to come to church and let's go knock on doors. That's the extent of the of the discipleship. You know, pass out as many tracks as you can. Preach topical messages. Just that make your echo chamber stand up and say, man, that's all that I was taught to do at Bible college. And I could go on and on. But for sake of time, I'm going to stop there. Yeah. And I will echo for me, the cons for me were the lack of education. Again, the quality of education. Since I've been out, I've had to really watch seminars and watch other classes and things online. And at the time, man, I thought, yeah, at the time I thought, man, this is the the premier education. And then I got out in the real world in ministry. And I'm like, they didn't teach me for any of this, like practical stuff. Yeah, I knew how to handle. But it was the education side that I was just so lacking. And I wish that that seventy two hundred dollars a year would have purchased a better education that now I've had to pay for through IBCD, ACBC certification and other certificates that that I pursued on. And really, the greatest education that we ever got was our doctorate from the RFP. And absolutely. Yeah. So looking at all those things, that that was one of the biggest cons for me. The other one, and I mentioned this on the other podcast I did, and so I don't want to rehash too much of it, was that Bible college became my faith. Living and breathing ministry every day, living and breathing Bible college every day was my faith. And so coming out of Bible college, I didn't really have any. And I talk to guys all the time that will say, I just regurgitated everything that I was told. When I got up and preached, I just regurgitated a message or thoughts that I'd heard my whole life. It wasn't anything that was original to me or even biblical. It was just what the professor had told me was true. And so I got up and I preached that as truth, even though I never studied one moment of that in my life. And for me, coming out of that and coming out of our first ministry and beginning to dive deep that those two years when I was out of ministry was the years that I grew so much because I began to develop my thought for why I believed it. Because it was what I was studying. It wasn't what someone was just telling me. It was someone was having a seminar or a debate. And then I was studying that for myself. And I was reading books and I was reading commentaries and going through these thoughts for myself. And it became to where Bible college was a crutch. Yeah, I've got my degree. I went to Bible college. I've got the stamp. And so now I'm ready for ministry. And it was the misconception that that's not what ministry is about. It's not about having that degree or that stamp. But it's about heart and it's about knowing what we know and why we know it. So those are some of the pros and cons we had. And as we're looking through, we just wanted to get you a sort of a background of where we were at as we jump into this next portion of the podcast today of Bible colleges in the church. Are they needed? Are they not needed? Why should we have them? Why should we not have them? Brett, you want me to start? Do you want to start? You can start. All right. Bible colleges in the church. Do we need them? When I was in high school, we'll back up here. When I was in high school and I knew I was going to go into ministry, we had to got a new pastor. And I sat down with him in his office and I said, I believe that the door is opening for me to go to Bible college. And he looked at me and he said, James, if you go to Bible college, you're going to be out of God's will. I mean, 18 year old kid. What what do you what do you expect? You're this is your pastor. Like, I'm going to be out of God's will. Like, OK, tell me what God's will is then. And so I looked at him and I said, pastor, what should I do? He said, well, sometimes you just need someone in your life to close those doors. And I know you said the doors are opening and you need to walk through those doors. But I'm here to tell you that door is closing and I'm going to close that door because you need to stay here and you need to study under me. Because biblically, you should be studying under your pastor. You shouldn't go off and listen to some Bible college. You should study under me. Work your job. Work where you're at. Let me be your trainer. Let me be your Paul. Let me be your educator and I'll train you in the ministry. And looking back, I knew what he meant. He I was active. I was teaching. I was doing some things in the youth. Then he wanted free labor. He wanted someone to do all those things and continue to do those things instead of replacing me with someone else. He wanted to train me to continue to do those things. Is this the same pastor with the shorts and the painting? Yes. Yes. Same pastor. And I said, well, pastor, I'm not going to mention his name, but I said, pastor, I appreciate that. I said, it's great advice. I said, let me let me go and pray about it. And ultimately, I knew that that was not what God wanted for me. And so I went to Bible college. So do I think Bible college is needed? Yes. Do I think the Bible colleges are needed that we went to? Maybe for someone. All right. It was great for me. It was a great learning experience. It was a great moment. Um, but man, all of a sudden you, uh, leave. And that was part of the thing was we left Arkansas. We were in Arkansas. We both had a degree in Arkansas. My wife had a unaccredited degree. It was a teaching degree in Arkansas in the state of Arkansas. It was an accredited degree. She can teach at any school in Arkansas because it met the qualifications of Arkansas college in the higher level institutions. The moment she leaves Arkansas, it's just a piece of paper. She can't get a job unless it's a Christian school. And so that was sort of our dilemma when we got into some of those things, even a Christian school like where we're at right now. Part of her education wasn't really accepted. And she's having to take continuing education classes in order to continue to be able to teach there because they're an accredited Christian school that is a higher education. So, so some of those things are, are they needed? Yes. I think they're needed at a different level. I think they're needed at accredited levels. I think they're needed at levels that are going to give the proper education that's going to educate the pastors and leaders of churches and give them the quality education they need. That's going to teach them at that standard. And, you know, you can find these at Liberty and Penscola and Luther Rice and New Orleans and Southeastern and Southern. The list goes on and on. But none of those were even a list of options when I was a teenager. Yeah. And that's the problem, I think, is we're so much digging a small hole and we're not telling people about the options that are out there that are going to give them the quality education they can need and use. And not just because that these are the colleges that are my friends go to. So. What we need is we need leadership for somebody who's wanting to go into the ministry is we need leadership. To care about that person's ministry and not be selfish and want to hold because that's what's what's hindering a lot of people like even your story. Like my pastor, he he, you know, wanted me to go to Bible college because he went to Bible college. But then when I was getting ready to graduate, he said, look, it's God's will for you to come back and work for me. And so that he said, if you don't get a full time offer, which a lot of people didn't. He said, you need to come back and work for me at my church. And he wanted me back in that spot doing what I was doing as a teenager where he didn't have to worry about that position and just keep me there forever. And so that was kind of his deal with that. But, you know, we I wish we would have had somebody in our lives to kind of care about our ministry and what we needed and gives us all the information. Do we need the churches need colleges and seminaries? You know, I think absolutely. Yes, the church can train. But, you know, for somebody that's going into the ministry, you need to go somewhere where not only can you get the information, but where you can also get a different view where you can be outside your box. You can be outside your comfort zone. I think we see plenty of evidence in in the scripture about people who are trained. And Paul was under Gamaliel and, you know, the apostles, they they went to college at the Jesus University. It only took them three and a half years to get a four year degree and to anyway. But yeah, obviously, I think colleges and seminaries are a good thing. Now, I would like to take just a second and talk to our listeners about my current educational journey. It was maybe a couple of years ago. You know, I have this my my my Bible college degree, but I wanted to get my master's and not just to have the paper, but to have the education that goes along with it. You know, to have that level of education, because I knew I needed more than what I had gotten. I know that the current degree, you know, a lot of what I learned in the ministry, I learned from actually being in the ministry boots on the ground. You know, I watch YouTube videos. I watch videos of the master's seminary on YouTube. And, you know, a lot of my experience was, you know, make you know, was, you know, making mistakes and then correcting that mistake and moving forward. So a lot of my experience is, you know, experiential experiential experience. But one day I was like, I want to be I want to have a master's degree. And so but with my unaccredited degree, there's no way I could do that. Well, then I found out about a program at Trinity Baptist College in Jacksonville, Florida. And what they do is you go to them. You say that you want to, you know, go after get a bachelor's degree, accredited degree. And they will look at all of your you know, they have a program, interdisciplinary program. Well, they'll look at your transcripts from all these other colleges, IFB unaccredited colleges, and they'll sift through those credits and your grades. And, you know, accept the ones that go towards the degree. And what was all said and done, they accepted all of my credits from House Anderson and all of my credits from Tri-State. They accepted all those credits. And their minimum requirement is 32 credits. They said, OK, you come take 32 credits with me, with us, and then we'll give you an interdisciplinary bachelor's degree, fully accredited, four-year bachelor. And so that's what I did. I got financial assistance with this. James, this program only cost me about $125 a month. And it took me one, two, three, it took me about a year and a half, when that's working through a summer. And, you know, I wasn't full, full-time. I was doing, you know, at the most three, maybe four classes at a time. But I worked through it, and I'm graduating. I got finished this past December. I'm graduating next month. I'm graduating in May. You know, I'm driving down to Jacksonville. I'm going to walk across the platform, get that bachelor. And then I'm already, you know, I'm already enrolled to begin my master's program at New Orleans this coming August. I'm going for my MDiv, my Master's of Divinity. And I don't know if I'll go for my doctorate or not. I might just stop at the master's, and we'll just see what happens. Now, one of the cool things that New Orleans has, that New Orleans, if you are pastoring a church of 150 people or less, they have a scholarship called the CASCII program, the CASCII scholarship, the CASCII program. And through the CASCII scholarship, if you pastor a church 150 or less, they will pay 100% for your schooling. And so I'm getting my master's completely free. You know, so I say this to anybody out there that, A, wants to have an accredited degree, but you don't want to go through another four years of college. This is an option for you. You can go to, I'm sure there are other places, other colleges that have programs like this. But I know for a fact Trinity does. I did it all online. I'm up here in Mississippi. Trinity's down in Jacksonville. You can do this all online. You can get an accredited bachelor degree, and you can have that accreditation. And then for a pastor out there that wants to pursue their master's and you have an IFB college degree, you can do that and then go to somewhere like New Orleans that has this CASCII program, do it all online, and it'd be 100% paid for. And so these are all options. So just because you have that degree, you don't want to go through another four years of college, but you want an accredited degree so you can further your career or, you know, further your goals or get the education that you want to get that you didn't get the first time, there are options available. And I'm living proof that you can do this. So I definitely wanted to make this information available to anybody who wants it because this is a situation that I was in that I know other people are in. That's fantastic. I love it. Love that option. And, Brett, I don't know if this was your case. This was not my case until I sort of got into Bible college and began listening to other people. But oftentimes I would hear a pastor say, every young person in my church needs to go to Bible college. Was that the thought for you guys? Yeah, we said the same thing. Yes. That's the part. Even if it's just for a year. Yeah, go get your certificate. That's what I'm not for. I'm not for every single person. I mean, some people may know that they're going to be a doctor or a lawyer. Why would they go and be at a Bible college for a year, two, three, four years if they're not going to be able to use that in their actual field of what they're going to be in? And so that's where it's using discretion. It's using discernment. If you know what you're going to do with your life, if you know where you're going to be at, don't waste your time going somewhere. I would not say that I wasted my time going to champion. I believe God had me there for a purpose. I believe God showed me things that I wouldn't have seen elsewhere because I was going to be in the ministry. It's a different animal. And so, you know, you can go to a regular college and take a Bible class. You can take New Testament, Old Testament survey at a regular state college. Yeah. And there's options like Liberty. There's options like Pensacola that offer some of these higher education, you know, bachelor's, master's, doctorate programs that are going to offer some of these things. And I'm not promoting any of those, but it's being wise with where you're at and knowing what your desire, your will for God is of your life. Now, I will say in the state of Mississippi, the Southern Baptist Convention has three schools. They are Blue Mountain, which is in the north, North Mississippi, and the Mississippi College, which is in Clinton near Jackson. And then you've got William Carey, which is down in Hattiesburg. These are the three Southern Baptist schools in Mississippi. And for me, you know, my oldest son is 16. You know, soon he's going to be graduating high school. We're going to be sending him off to college. And, you know, we could send him to a state school. I personally, this is personally, this is just me. I feel more comfortable because he was homeschooled his whole life. We've homeschooled our kids. I feel more comfortable with him going to, you know, a Baptist school. So those are the three schools that we're going to be looking at as it gets close to him graduating. I like Mississippi College because right now they have a scholarship where if you live in the state of Mississippi, you get to go to college for free. The only thing you have to pay for is room and board. And it's the closest college to us. But I also don't want to rule out Blue Mountain and William Carey if, you know, if we can get some good scholarships from there as well. Because these are all three good schools. I definitely want him. So I'm sure your state has options like this. But for our state, these are the three Southern Baptist, you know, colleges for the Mississippi Baptist Convention Board. And those are the ones we're looking at for our kids. Yeah, that's cool. We've got two of those in North Carolina. It's the Fruitland Baptist Bible Institute, which is a two-year associate's degree level. And then we've got Southeastern there over in Winston. No, I'm sorry, Raleigh-Durham area. And that is the two that we have. And so and they've just partnered together to where you can take adjunct classes at Fruitland and get your four-year degree. And you can also take satellite campus classes at Fruitland to get your two-year degree there. Yeah. And another thing I forgot to mention, when I say these are Southern Baptist colleges, I'm not saying they're all ministry colleges. At each one of them, you can go for ministry. But they have they're accredited and they have other you can go for nursing. My son, Colin, he wants to be in computers. He wants to be a computer engineer. And so they've got a computer engineering program at Mississippi College, which is what he wants to go for. So, yes, just because these are no Southern Baptist colleges doesn't mean it's all ministry. You know, they have regular professions there. My youngest son, he wants to be a preacher. He wants to be a pastor. But my older one, he wants to go into computers. And I'm all for him doing that. Love it. Well, I hope this has helped you today. I believe that higher education is a good thing. I don't think it's an end-all be-all. Me personally, I don't think that you have to have this higher education in order to be successful in life. A high school diploma. Man, there's some of the richest people in the world have simply a high school diploma. Some of them are high school dropouts with a GED. What we're saying is there's not a one-size-fits-all when it comes to your higher education. I have very little, if any, desire to go past my bachelor's degree. Where some guys, they live for that master's and doctor. They live for education. And that's just not where I'm at. And so it's understanding that and not allowing someone else to dictate sort of where you're at in your life. And it's just understanding who you are and how God's designed you. And not repeating the same mistakes that we've made in the past. It's allowing us to have freedom in that area. Absolutely. And I just want to end by saying, look, you know, if you are, if you do want to further your education, and look, there's nothing wrong with that. And, you know, I think that if you're in a situation like we were in, you've got this piece of paper from an IFP college that holds no weight because it's not accredited. There are options for you. You don't have to throw it away. You don't have to start over from square one. There are avenues that you can take to get accreditation and move forward with your education if that's your desire. But just like you said, James, it's not the end-all, be-all thing. It's not something we have to have. But if you want it and you're feeling led to, there are options available. Absolutely. Love it. And, hey, one thing, you know, with the onset of YouTube and people recording things, one beautiful thing is you can go and you can listen and actually observe a lot of these classes before you ever take them. You can go to Master Seminary and watch most of their courses. I've watched so many courses, dude. I take them courses. I put them on double speed and I just listen to them, man. Well, and that's the great thing about it is you can take a class or listen, basically all of that class for a little bit and be like, hey, man, this isn't for me. Like, I don't want to go into this. I want to – this is not appealing to me. And so it helps you before you even get to that, understand what God has designed you for. So thank you for listening today. I know we went a little longer today, but Bible college for us, it was a long part of our life. It was a part of our life that was – you know, it spent a lot of our time, our effort, our money, and that may have been your same story. And that doesn't have to be the end of that story. We can continue on and we don't have to continue to harbor on those things. We can seek forgiveness and restoration and move forward and grow from those experiences and help others not experience the same things we experience. And so that's why we're talking today. We hope you've enjoyed it. And if you have any questions, always feel free to reach out to us and let us know. And, again, we'd love to see you in Indianapolis coming up here real soon. And so, Brett, until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. We'll see you in the next one. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. For Freedom Podcast.

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