128. Freedom In The Church - Bible Colleges with Dr Marcus Merritt

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Saferick and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. We are so great to be in the series of what we're at right now. And we've got an interview lined up today with Dr. Marcus Merritt, Ph.D., Doctor of Ministry. I think there's like 15 other titles that I'm probably forgetting that we're going to interview with him. Yeah, yeah, so many letters there. And so we're going to interview with him a little later. But before we get started, Brett, we had a wonderful Easter Sunday. And I hope you had a great Easter Sunday. And a lot of things went on this past weekend. We had our egg hunt. We had our sunrise service. We had all those things that we went through, which were really, really cool. First time here at this church. And so I'm seeing sort of some of the things that are a little different. They do a sunrise service here. And I've done a sunrise service at my former church. But the sunrise service here they do in the graveyard. And so that was really cool. That's something that people do here. Like I've asked people because I've done sunrise services before. But I'm like, they do it when they've done it in the past. They do it in the graveyard. And I know that's tradition. But man, it's so weird. It is. I'd never heard that before. Yeah. So seeing the sun come up right over my shoulder and then being there in the graveyard. That was a pretty, pretty neat experience. But yeah, that was the first time we've done that for me. They're used to doing that there. My former church, we did it inside. And the youth would put on like an Easter drama as a sunrise service. And so I would always do the message for Easter sunrise service. And then our youth would do the opening part of that. So this is a little different this year, but exciting to see that done. So how was your guys' Easter? Man, we had our breakfast at 830 and everything went well. We got stuffed in full. We have a really strong Sunday school at our church. A lot of people attend Sunday school. But traditionally on Easter, we drop our Sunday school and we have our main service. Instead of having it at 11, we have it at 10, you know, so people can go get their roasts and whatnot ready. And I joke around with my people and I say, look, even though we're having, you know, main service at 10, you know, I'm still preaching at 12. That's the time I got. So, you know, just because we start earlier doesn't mean we're getting out any earlier. Yes. Yeah, I told that. We didn't come here to go home. Yeah, I told that to one of our deacons. I think it was Christmas or it was Christmas service. We moved back early because it was Christmas Eve. And I made the statement. And I said, well, I said, Claude Jr. told me that I need to be done by 12 o'clock. And it's 1030 right now. So buckle in, guys. We got an hour and a half. You could just see the eyes like, oh, is he serious? You know, what's going on here? But, yeah, that's I tell them all the time. I said, I get to go to a 12 and I'll be out by 12. Don't worry. Exactly. Love it. But overall, man, we had a great Easter Sunday. It was just great. It's my favorite time of year to just focus in. I tell them I tell everybody, you know, we should always focus in on the resurrection and the cross. But this is just a special time that we set aside to really focus in on it. And a lot of people came to church, hadn't been in a while. And it was just a great Sunday. We had a great time. That's great. That's great. Well, we've got Indiana coming up, man. And I can't wait. It's right around the corner, man. We're in April. And we are just ready to go. And we are just right around the corner from that. And being able to go to the convention, we were able to talk with Marcus. He's going to be there. We're going to try to do some live recordings with him in person. And hopefully we'll be able to see some other friends there in June and be able to have some other meetups as well. And if you're planning on being there, let us know. We'd love to meet up with you. And then, Brett, what's up next? On that, I've had several people say, man, I'm going to be there. Hey, listen, if you're coming to Indianapolis, please look us up. Let us know. James, maybe we should have a booth for Freedom Podcast Booth. You know how expensive it is to get a booth at the convention? I do not. But listen, this podcast makes us so much money, that's not going to be a problem. Absolutely. We're rolling in the dough over here with our podcast. Absolutely. I mean, Patreon is banging out over there. Our merch sales, Brett, are out of the world. I mean, we're millions of dollars a week in merch. I mean, seriously, dude. This hoodie that I wear every day, it's always a new one. It's like I want to throw it away. Put on a new one because we sell so many of them. That's right. The next thing we have on our calendar is Catoosa. We have For the Sake of the Gospel Conference in Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia. I would have never been able to pronounce that. That's why he calls it Hope Church Catoosa. Yeah. But we're going to be at Hope Church Catoosa at JC's church and come to the Force of the Sake of the Gospel Conference. It's going to be a bigger deal this year than it's ever been before. JC is going to do it right. And we're going to be there at his church. And it's going to be a great time. Great time to recharge. Great time to refresh. And, you know, just get along with some, you know, some fellow recovering fundamentalists as yourselves and fellow fans of the For Freedom podcast. And we would love to meet you and be there with you. JC's, you know, we're going to be there that weekend. Sunday, me and James is going to start a bus route at JC's church. Goldfish Sunday. Swallowing it home. And we're going to get JC to swallow that goldfish. Yep. Always chase. We're actually going to put the goldfish on his head and it's going to jump off of his bald head and into his mouth. Exactly. Exactly. When I swallowed the goldfish, I always chased it with a Mountain Dew. It was the only way I could. Not pickle juice? Otherwise it'd swim back up my throat. Not pickle juice? No, not pickle juice. I had to get the Mountain Dew. But we've got the For the Sake of the Gospel conference. And then next year, James, tell us about it. I'm so excited. Israel is coming up, man. I can't wait. It's so good. We talk about it every week. We're going to take a series when we come back from the summer and spend four to six weeks just talking about Israel. Having some friends that went with us to Israel talk about their experience. We're going to talk about our experience. And, man, we're just so excited about going and allowing you to be able to partner with us and going with us. And so we would love for you to join us. That's the first, second week in March of 2025. And so a little less than a year away. And we would love, absolutely love, most affordable trip you'll go on to Israel, $5,000. And that's all in, everything, total cost of everything. So we'd love for you to join us with that and join our group that's growing every day. And we still have some spots left for you to join us on that. This past Sunday, man, I had two people in church say, two guys come up and say, look, we want to go put us down. And so I had two more spots filled. And listen, me and James have got some insider info. I mean, this info is so insider that if the government knew about it, they'd put us in jail. That's how much of an inside information this is. We are insider trading right now with this information. Our Israel trip is more a reality now than it has been this whole time. I know there's things going over there. We understand that. But, you know, there are tours. We have it on good authority that there are tours on the ground right now in Israel. They're safe, safer now than it's ever been. And this trip is a reality. It is going to happen. Love it. Love it. Can't wait. And what also is going to happen is an amazing interview that we have lined up with the doctor, Marcus Merritt, who met us in Israel, who was there in Atlanta. We got to meet up with him. I actually, Brett, got to park with him. And we sort of met together there in Atlanta for the first time there. Got to really meet up and get to know him on our journey. And then really the reason why Brett and me are on this podcast together is because of the For Freedom, not the For Freedom, the RFP leading that trip to Israel and putting us into a closer connection and being able to spend that time there in Israel. And I remember walking there on the Sea of Galilee and I said, Brett, we got to do this trip together again. And then we planned the trip together before I even come on the podcast. Yeah. And our brotherhood just began to grow together and love for one another, began to talk and know that we had mutual friends. Gingers unite. Absolutely. The love it, man. And so Brett is part of that, for me, part of that brotherhood that came out of going to Israel. And it was really all because of Marcus putting that trip together for the RFP. And so the brotherhood and the friendships that you'll get, the sisterhood that you'll get from going on that trip will be a friendship that you'll forever have and moments that you'll always have together. And so hopefully you'll come with us. But that leads us right into Marcus's interview. And we'll be talking about that. But, Brett, right before we get started, what's your thought on that? But before we throw to the interview, can we consider Marcus a doctor if he doesn't have an honorary RFP doctorate yet? I thought he did. Does he have one? I thought he did. Well, if he does, that's the only reason why we can have an honorary doctor. Yeah. He'll add those letters to the end of his name. Yes. Absolutely. RFP at the end. All right. Well, without further ado, here is the interview with Marcus Merritt. All righty. Today on the podcast, we've got Dr. Marcus Merritt with us over at Luther Rice Seminary, good friend of ours. Brother Marcus, how are you doing today? I'm doing well, Brett. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast today. Love you and James. And I was delighted when you invited me to join. It's great, man. I thank you for being able to come on today. And we're recording this the week of the Holy Week. And so we're having spring break next week, so I'll be out of town. And we're sort of recording a little bit of a head. But me and Brett met with Marcus when we went to Israel. And, man, our hearts bonded and just was able to experience the Holy Lands together. And so, man, we are excited about having you come on. We're doing the In the Church series. And me and Brett have really enjoyed this, this first part of the year that we've done. And we've talked through different issues of worship. We've talked through different issues of structure. And we had Brian Edwards come on, abuse in the church. But the question, and we talked about this last week, was college and seminaries in the church. And so we'll get into that in a minute. But, Marcus, for the sake of our listeners, will you introduce yourself? Tell us sort of your ministry, your marriage, your life, the things that sort of make you Dr. Marcus Marriage. Well, I will try not to bore the audience too much. But I was called into ministry about the time that I got married. It would have been 1984. In fact, I told my wife when I proposed to her that I felt like God was calling me to be, and the ministry was calling me to be a preacher. And, you know, if she was going to marry me, was she okay with that? And she said, yes, of course. And then later on, she acknowledged that she said, I did not think you were serious. I could not picture you behind the pulpit preaching. I just thought that was something that you said. But she's been very, very supportive all these years. And I, for about 10 years, was just a preacher in my church. And in 1994, I was called to pastor the Antioch Baptist Church in Cedartown. My home church ordained me at that point. And then in 2000, I took a church in Alabama, the Macedonia Baptist Church in Renburn, Alabama. Both those churches were Southern Baptist churches. The church I came out of had been Southern Baptist, but went independent Baptist. And so technically, I came out of an IFB church, although we would classify it as IFB light. But just my home church and the two churches I pastored, nothing but great experiences. I have no bad stories or anything like that. Just wonderful people. I've been back to both churches preaching funerals and homecomings over the years and just love those people dearly. While I was at my second church, things were going great. We were always led the association in baptisms, and we were the largest church in the association with all the accolades and all that great stuff. Not that any of that matters, but just to kind of give you context. And Dr. Sammy Gilbreth with the Alabama Baptist Convention called me one day out of the blue and asked me if I would join the evangelism staff at the Alabama Convention. And I said, well, I don't even know what that would be. What would that be like? And so he invited me down to Montgomery, and we just felt God calling us to that. So we resigned the pastoral ministry there in Renburn and went to the Alabama Convention. And three years later, the Georgia Convention called and said, would you come to Georgia and serve on the evangelism staff at Georgia? Both of these came to me out of the blue. I didn't apply for them. I didn't position myself for them. I didn't know either job existed until I got the phone call. And so we went to Georgia, and we served there. And my last role at Georgia, I served as the director of church minister relations for the 3,600 churches that make up the Georgia Baptist Convention. And that was just, I felt like the greatest ministry of our career, of our ministries, was serving in that capacity. And in 2020, we took the early retirement and left the Georgia Baptist Mission Board, but didn't really know what I would do. And I was teaching as an adjunct professor at Luther Rice. And they called me while I was in that period of working out my last days as a director of church minister relations with the Georgia Convention. And they said, hey, we're looking for somebody to come full time at Luther Rice. And we know you know a lot of people. Could you recommend somebody to me? I said, well, as a matter of fact, I know a guy. Right, right. And so that was me. And I've been here full time since January 1, 2021, in the role of, I wasn't hired in this role, but I'm now, I serve as the director of the doctorate ministry program. I love the path that got me here, as twisting and turning as it was, and all the different ways that God has allowed me to serve in his ministry in the different capacities. And I'm just honored to be sitting here today recounting all of that, all of God's goodness with you. Love it. One of the things that I love that JC says all the time is the power of someone's story. And we've had many people come on and share their story of going through abuse or whatever situation it may be. But even in our story of ministry and God leading us from one place to another and seeing his ultimate plan work out when we don't even understand it. Right. But we look back and we say, man, that was only God that could have allowed that to happen. That's right. When I was called to the ministry where I'm at now, the lady sat down with me just a couple of weeks ago. We had lunch with her, and she said we narrowed it down to three candidates. And she said, your resume was not, she said it was one of those ones we got, but I had not, it was like a sample resume. And we were talking about it, but she said, I thought that you had told us no, that you weren't interested. And she said, when we divvied up the three resumes for someone to call your resume got put in one of those folders. And so when one of the ladies called me back and said, you were interested, she said, his name's not even on the list. Why did you call him? And they just began sort of laughing, like, well, I don't know, but he's interested. So they began exploring and praying. And then a couple months later, they called me and asked me to come be their pastor. So seeing some of those things and the details that God works out behind the scenes is fantastic to see. And so thanks for that. Brett, let's ask, go ahead and go to the next thought, or Brett, give you some response to that as well. So, Marcus, let me just start out by saying that you've been become such a good friend of mine in the ministry. The time we shared in Israel, that's a bond that was created that, you know, when I take future groups to Israel, Marcus Mayer is going to be he's going to be my guide. And the patience that you show people who lag behind is legendary. Ben, I didn't say it. But, you know, I know I know personally, you know, we're talking about going from, you know, the pastorate into, you know, a different chapter in the ministry can be an emotional thing. I remember when I was at my last church, I mean, there was a part of me that really, really wanted to go. But then there was another part of me that was just like it was tearing my heart out to go into this other chapter. I really didn't want to go anywhere. So so I know you kind of talked about it, you know, broadly, but kind of in a narrower sense. What what did it feel like or what kind of process did you go through from leaving the pastorate to become an educator? Was it well, what was that transition like? Well, it it was it was an emotional transition to start with. And here we said all these years later and and I know I'm giving myself a compliment that I don't deserve when I say this, but I still think of myself as having a pastor's heart. And it's unfair for me to say that because I don't carry the burden that a pastor carries. But I still have that heart in my chest beating in my chest, the heart of a pastor. And that's kind of I feel like that's in my DNA. I've tried to over the years. I've done 12. We call them transitional pastorates. Think in terms of an interim. And again, it's not the same. Let me just underscore that it's not the same. But these interims, transitional pastorates, and I'm in one right now, they average between 12 and 18 months that I'm there. So it's a long way around to answer your question is that you never get it out of your system. You're always doing something to feed that that pastoral calling that God has put you into. I don't think serving the state convention. As a matter of fact, when I was with the Alabama convention, I served concurrently with the North American Mission Board. So I was serving NAM and the Alabama convention at the same time. But I don't think that the Georgia convention, Luther rise. I don't think any of it fully satisfies that pastoral itch that you have. And even doing these transitional pastorates don't fully satisfy. So unless God is calling you into something else, I don't think you'll ever be satisfied if you're a pastor. I feel like in my life, God has called me into the pastorate. And then God called me into these other ministries that allowed me to still kind of have my foot in that world a little bit, but yet not be a pastor. So I would be miserable if I didn't feel like God called me to be where I am today. I preach literally. I'll have one to two Sundays a year off. I mean, that's it. I'm in the pulpit every week. So I feel like I'm still in the world, but I'm not a pastor. And you guys, if you tried to do this without a calling, you'd be miserable. You'd be like, hey, I'm cheating here. God's called me to be a pastor. So you know what I mean. You know, God calls us in. God calls us out. God moves us around. While I'm still in ministry, I'm not in pastoral ministry, but I teach pastoral ministry. So if that makes sense. It's a rambling answer, but it's the best I can do. It's God that has moved us around and God's put me where I'm at. I still feel like I'm a pastor, even though I'm technically not. But that's where my heart is. Amen. Amen. It's a good word. Love that. Love that. And as we continue this thought of seminaries, one of the things in the question that gets asked often is, should the church be the local training ground? Or should we send men and women off to seminary and college? You know, when I went into ministry, one of the things my pastor sat down with me and hindsight, I know why he did this. He didn't. I was a worker. I was someone who was teaching. He didn't want to lose someone and potentially never come back because I was going into ministry. But he said, the best thing for you to do, son, is stay right here and serve under me. I'll be your teacher. I'll be your trainer. That's what biblically, that's what you should do. And I said, well, I said, I knew that I was going to go to Bible college. I knew God was calling me into ministry. I knew I wouldn't get the training that I needed while I was in that church. And so part of me was guilty. You know, am I disobey my pastor? Am I doing what I shouldn't do? Am I doing the wrong thing by going to college? And so where does seminaries, and we're going to do an episode in a couple of weeks about parachurch ministries, and I would say seminaries would be a parachurch ministry. But where does that fit into the local church and how does that fit into the local church? Several different ways. You know, 2 Timothy 2.2, you have the quintessential discipleship paradigm there. Paul discipling Timothy, who's discipling faithful men, who's discipling others. And that certainly is a local church didactic teaching ministry. And really, that's what seminary is. It's just discipleship. It's teaching people the truths and the doctrines of God. Back in the Old Testament, you know, you can locate the school of the prophets in the Old Testament. You can find those scriptures relating. So there was some type of formalized training going on there. Now, the New Testament, we know there were rabbis like Gamaliel and people like Paul, who was Saul of Tarshish, left Tarshish and was sent to Jerusalem to be schooled under Gamaliel. And then 1st, 2nd centuries, 3rd centuries, the monasteries, you know, where monks studied and wrote and copied the scriptures and were trained. And all of that's going on along with people being trained at the local church level as we get into the New Testament times, 1st, 2nd centuries. So I don't think it's either or. I think it's both and. I think there are men and women in various ministries, obviously, who will be called to more formalized training, who would be called to go away, as it were, to more formalized training. As Saul left Tarshish and went to Jerusalem to be formally trained under Gamaliel. And so there's pastors that will be formally called, you know, to either move and go off to school somewhere or to do it online or whatever. And then there's others that won't be called to that type of formalized training that will be taught under a pastor that whose ministry will look something different. For example, you know, Peter. Peter's training was under Jesus. I mean, that's the greatest teacher there ever was. You can't get no better than that. That's right. And Peter, there being trained under Jesus, the first half of the book of Acts, Peter's leading the way. By the way, on those southern steps where we stood and sang, where Peter stood and preached on the day of Pentecost, on those same southern steps is where rabbis taught their students. No doubt, Jesus taught Peter on those southern steps. Yeah. And being trained, you know, locally there by Jesus, he led the way the first half of the book of Acts. Then the second half of the book of Acts, a man who certainly did not have a better teacher than Jesus, but I'm just, I'm going formal versus informal. A man who had a formal recognized trainer teaching education, a man who would have had what we would call a PhD in our modern times. A man named Paul led the second half of the book of Acts. Which man's better? Well, neither is better. Both men had an important part in church history. Peter, the first half. Paul, the second half. And I think that's a great picture of some men have this formal training. Other men, they've been with Jesus. We take note that these men have been with Jesus and they have their own ministries. And you can even look at the great pastors and evangelists of modern times. Some had formal training. Some didn't. So I don't think it's either or. I think it's both and. Some men are called and trained locally. Some men are called to go away to more formalized training. That's the best I can do with that. So I was kind of taught kind of the same way that James was taught. Man, you don't need your diploma. I'll be here. I'll equip you. The Holy Spirit will be your teacher. But then, you know, at the minimum, our pastors, especially my pastor, would say, don't go to those cemeteries. They're full of dead people. You don't need letters after your name. You don't need no fancy accredited degree. But I've come to know now at this stage that the knowledge that I have gained just from going back to an accredited Bible college. I start seminary this coming August. But just going back to accredited Bible college and getting that knowledge and taking some of the classes that I would take in a seminary has just, in my opinion, has been priceless, especially if you're going to go in and preach the word. Now, segwaying into our next question, I've looked for churches before. I've searched for churches. I've sent my resume out. I put my resume on job boards in several different states. So I've been through this process. And there are churches out there that, man, as long as, you know, at least you got a Bible degree or Bible college degree, they'll talk to you. But then there are other churches that, man, if you don't have at least a master's, they're not even going to look at your resume. And that's been my experience. So I'd like to ask, to be in the ministry, does a degree need to be held in today's society? Wow, Brett, that's a great question. And I'll give you a, for instance, I have a friend, I won't call his name, I don't want to embarrass him, but he's pastor of a First Baptist Church, a large, prominent First Baptist Church in Georgia. And he has a high school diploma, but the man is an avid reader. He's one of the greatest preachers you'll ever hear. He kind of came up IFB, but he's, you know, a solid Southern Baptist now and preaches in all the different preaching conferences. And but he has no formal education. And he's told me himself that there are churches that, you know, in the past have, like, expressed interest in him and then find out he has no formal education. And they're just, you know, he's anathema to them. They don't want anything to do with him. Is it necessary is the question. Obviously, it's not necessary. It is very helpful. And I think there's a ditch on either end of that. We all know people who have accredited degrees, accredited real degrees that have no business in pastoral ministry. There are horrible preachers or terrible leaders, and they just really shouldn't be where they're at. And they have no track record of God's blessing or breathing on their ministry in any way. And so just thinking, well, this degree is going to get me where I need to go. I think I think I think we can say it. I think you're you enrolled in New Orleans. That's where my doctorate is from is from the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. And there was a time if you had a doctorate from New Orleans, man, I mean, that just wrote the ticket for you. It's not the case anymore. It may open a door, but you got to prove that God's blessed your ministry for that for you to continue on with that. And education, I think it prepares us, doesn't qualify us. It prepares us for ministry. The Holy Spirit has got to call us. There's got to be a call. And I tell my students this all the time. When times get tough, you're not going back to that degree and saying, well, this is why I'm going to continue on because I got this diploma hanging on my wall. It's not going to do it. It doesn't qualify you. The Holy Spirit of God calls you. He qualifies you. And when times get tough and when those deacons turn on you and when the church is it's that calling that we go back to. So that's what's necessary. We must be called by God. God equips those he calls. Now, what the seminary does, what the education does, as you say, it prepares us for ministry. In some ways, you could argue that it equips us. While we know the Holy Spirit's the ultimate equipper, it does give us the ability to have the information to put together good sermons and no background and no history and no hermeneutics to the scriptures. But it's so it's not necessary. But, oh, how helpful it is and how much you're able to go deeper into the scriptures. The more education, the deeper you're able to take it. And that's one of the reasons I think Paul is is the prominent person in the second half of the book of Acts is because he did have that education. He was able to link all of that Old Testament imagery and all of the Old Testament practices and tie that into the New Testament because of this deep theological training that he had. And so I think what we do is we set ourselves up by having the more education that we have. We set ourselves up to be used by God in a greater capacity. But it doesn't equip us. It doesn't call us. It just helps us further our ministry and perhaps get our foot in the door somewhere that otherwise we would not have had that ability. You said one thing, deacons turning on you. I don't understand. Yeah, it's something I read about in a while. Yeah. Well, and this isn't even part of our thoughts, but I've got a pastor friend of mine. He has a heart for churches. He's he's loves pastors. He loves networking. And he has been in the ministry for 30 plus years. He's got a two year degree from Fruitland. Mm hmm. And he he said, man, if I could say this would be the job that I want to finish the rest of my life would be like a D. O. M. A. M. A. A. A. A. I see one of those positions come open and I look at the, the recommendations or the qualifications to be in that position. He said, every single one of them is either a master or doctorate level. Yeah. He said, how am I ever going to get to that point? He said, I'm 30 years in the ministry. I don't have time to go back to college. He said, but yet that's their qualification. And I don't know if it's churches and these associations are sort of pigeonholing their, you know, they want a pastor that's 30 with 45 years of experience and a doctorate degree. I don't like, I don't understand why churches at some point are having this, you know, they want a guy that's led, but then they have, and I'm not saying that qualifications and I may butcher my question that shouldn't be there, but I think oftentimes we get so caught up on, like Brett said, the letters on the back of the name and we don't, we, we isolate ourselves from men that maybe just have a bachelor's degree like myself and I'm working on an associate's degree. Yeah. Even an associate's degree, you know, and, and they've, they've, they've done their, their, their well-qualified, they've, they've proven themselves in the ministry, but because they don't have their specific degree, now they're not even ready for that ministry, even though, man, they would take care of a ministry and they would take care of an association well, but because they don't have those, those letters behind their name, then all of a sudden society looks at them in a different way. And I don't know if it's because the, the church has taken on this CEO corporate role where, you know, you have to have a certain degree to be a CEO and, and we've sort of taken that model and we've turned it into the church. So I don't, I don't have the answer. Maybe you do, but. Well, I will tell you this, during my, my tenure at the Georgia Baptist Mission Board, I went in, as I mentioned, in evangelism, but in 2012, I transitioned into the office of, of church minister relations. And one of the things that we did in that office that I served in from 2012 to 2020 is that we trained pastor search committees. Now, you know, churches are autonomous. It's not like I went in there. I mean, when invited in by the church, I would go in and train their pastor search committee. And that was James. One of the very things that we talked about was yes, it's okay for you to have like a wish list. You know, this is what we want in a pastor. And I think you should have some, something that you're aiming at. But I said that very thing. I said, but understand there's a difference between saying we would like for our pastor to have some seminary training at an accredited institution. That's great to have that. But I said, you need to take it case by case because there may be somebody out there, just like you said, we want someone with a master of divinity degree. And back in the day, that was 90 hours with nine hours Hebrew and nine hours Greek. But that was a weighty, weighty degree. It's okay to say we want a pastor with an accredited MDiv degree. But I said, make it word it ideally. Yeah. Because there may be someone just like the guy you described, just like that person that is called by God, equipped by God, had a little different path. Hey, I didn't come out of high school, go into college, get a four-year degree, come out of college with a four-year degree and go into a seminary working on my master's. I didn't do that. You guys probably didn't do that either. Some of us have a little different path. And so you need to follow the Holy Spirit. It's okay to say, this is what we're looking for. But mainly what we're looking for is God's man. Yeah. The man that God's got his hand on. I'd rather have God's man with an associate's degree than to have not God's man with a PhD. And we both agree on that. But the other side of that is sometimes we pit one against the other and say, if you got a PhD, you couldn't be a godly man. Oh, yes, you can. We all know those godly called men, equipped men that have the higher education as well. So just say ideally, but don't rule out the man that doesn't have that. Yeah. One of the things that when I came to this church six months ago and they were talking to me, they had made the statement. They said, well, you know, our, because I'd never even seen the job description. They called me. I didn't, you know, I'd never even looked at it. And so they said, what's your education? And I said, well, I've got a bachelor's degree from an uncredited Bible college in Arkansas. And I said, so I don't know where that fits in with you guys. I said, but I've got 12 years of experience behind my belt. And I said, I'm pursuing a degree, not a degree, but a certification in counseling through ACBC. I said, it's the same program. If you went to Southern and went through Southern, it's the same program. It's pretty much like maybe a thousand dollars total that I'm going to call them will pay for. I said, but it would be an equivalent of a master's degree. And they said, okay. I said, are you finished with that? I said, no, not yet. I still, still in the process of it. They said, okay, well that would, that would meet our qualifications. You know, you're going to have, you're in pursuit of what's equivalent to be a master's degree. I said, now don't get me wrong guys. I said, I won't have a master's degree. I said, so if someone ever says that, I'm not going to have that. I said, I'll have a certification in counseling and I'll have certification to ACBC and IBCD to be a Christian biblical counselor. And so that was sort of, you know, their thing is that we went through that was just trying to figure out the nuts and bolts because we both matched up well. And so they're trying to figure out. And so there was flexibility there. And I like what you said, use it as a recommendation, not a stern point. Right. I do want to say very quickly that when I was pursuing churches, and sending out my resumes and looking, um, of course I didn't meet the master's requirements, but, uh, you know, I have a four year bachelor degree from an unaccredited college and no church ever said that wasn't good enough. Um, you know, so I don't want to, you know, people out there that maybe have a degree from an IFB college like me, that's unaccredited that, you know, it gets discouraged. I never had one church look at my bachelor and say, Oh, is this accredited? Or is this not accredited? Um, you know, they, uh, four years of training was, was good enough for them. Now I did need to take extra steps to get my master's, which is what I did. Um, this may, I graduate from, uh, uh, Trinity Baptist college in Jacksonville with an accredited bachelor. But, um, as far as looking for churches and things like that, uh, the, the degree I had, uh, was sufficient. So I say that just to not, uh, there might be somebody out there that is looking for a church that just has, you know, a four year bachelor from an unaccredited college. I don't want them to get discouraged. You know, there are churches out there that the fact that you went there, you spent that time, you train that time is, is good enough for them. And Brett, I'll follow up on that and say that the same is true with our school. You know, Luther Rice, we have a SACS accreditation, which is the highest accreditation. You can have the same, this a new Orleans or Southern seminary or Dallas theological, you know, all of these, uh, we have that highest level of accreditation as they do. But if someone applies, and I know this for a fact, cause some of my students do, if someone applies to our school and they have a degree from an IFB school, an unaccredited IFB school. Now I'm not saying it's automatic, but there is a process and we often do take those credits. So it's not like, you know, that person wasted their time. I'm sure they learned something in, in, in their education. There's no doubt about that. And there's, there's no doubt that churches recognize it to your point, Brett, and that even other schools can recognize it. I don't, Dr. Steve Prey. And by the way, isn't that a great name to have working at a seminary? Dr. Steve Prey is our registrar. And, and he's the one that goes through all those credit things and tells what can be accepted, what can't be accepted. But I know for a fact that some of these schools, we do accept their credits. So I'm with you, Brett. I want to encourage anybody, if you're thinking you got an undergraduate degree or an associate's degree, and you'd like an accredited degree from a Luther Rice, by all means apply. I mean, there's no telling what could happen. Good. What good things might happen from that. Yeah. One of the things about my wife was, um, when we got our degree in Arkansas, where her degree is in teaching and it's an accredited degree in Arkansas. But when you leave the state of Arkansas, it's just a piece of paper. And so we were finding all of our teaching ministries that she was in, except the most recent one she's at right now, Statesville Christian School. And, uh, they're an accredited degree through ACSI. They've got, you know, they're very high standard of education. And she told them, she said, I don't have an accredited degree. I've never taken my practices. Like I've got 12 years of teaching experience, but I don't have, you know, an accredited degree. They said, we'll handle all that. We like what you've got. We'll accept all those things. And so when it came time to begin to get her certified through ACSI, they said, Hey, can we get your transcripts of the classes that you took in that college? And so I got the transcript, sent it to them. And they said, uh, it says here that you took adolescent psychology. Did you take that class? And my wife said, yeah, I took it, passed it with an A. They said, that's fine. That's all. That's the only thing that ACSI required for her to take with her to degree. They said, because so often colleges don't require or have the kids take that class. And it wasn't until I think our senior year, that class was offered. And so she took it. And because she took it, it allowed her degree to be recognized as an accredited degree through that accreditation program. I mean, it was something so simple that we wouldn't have known unless we got that job. And so there, there's so many different things, like you guys are saying, that it's simply just asking questions, not just taking this face value and beginning this process of, of making these sometimes, uh, you know, I've be guys that have left the left some of these colleges that have what they say is just a piece of paper. Uh, but it's, it is showing that there was a interest in formal education, whether the education was great or not, there was an interest there and you were dedicated to finish that four years. Um, and that means more, I think than, than the, the, the bachelor's degree or master's degree sometimes. Um, so looking to the future, um, of colleges and seminaries, where do you see this going? Um, you know, I've, I've talked to a friend of mine just this last week, I had lunch with him and, uh, he got his doctor from New Orleans Theological Seminary as well. And, uh, he was in Alabama, he was in Georgia. They had an adjunct, um, campus there in Georgia with New Orleans. And, uh, he was able to take some seated classes there in Georgia and be in New Orleans on campus. And one of the things he said was that was so appealing to New Orleans was that he had this ability where he didn't have to uproot his family, go to New Orleans, and he could still have seat hours. He could still be in that same community of, of, of believers. And now with, uh, the online programs and in-person larger, smaller, what do you see the future of colleges and seminaries? Well, I mean, we've got, I mean, you can basically audit most of master seminaries classes online on YouTube because they've uploaded everything there. I mean, if I want to take a class, I could sit in my computer and I could take the next year and just watch a couple of courses. And John has done that. He he's audited the class where he'll just watch the classes. He's not writing the papers. He's not reading the books. He's just getting the education. And so where do we see this, this formal education in the future going? Do you, do you have, have y'all had this talk at Luther Rice? Uh, what's, what's the, the future of that? Well, that's a great, great question. And, uh, the answer is, is a varied as a people you speak to, but I think I have the right answer. So let me give it to you. Uh, first of all, I have, uh, I have three great learning institutes, uh, institutions on my resume. All three are very, very different schools. Um, Luther Rice, uh, my undergraduate, uh, Luther Rice is, as I mentioned a moment ago, uh, largely, we are like the second career choice for a lot of people, people that are called to ministry later on in life. Uh, also, uh, Beeson Divinity School at Samford University, uh, which is a very small divinity school on the campus of a college, uh, Samford University. So Beeson is, uh, the divinity school, the, the seminary on the campus of the college. Uh, they only have 300 students and people come from all over the world to, uh, live in Birmingham and go to this seminary. The only reason I got in was because of someone I knew. Trust me, it had nothing to do with my grades or my undergraduate degree. Trust me. I got in despite that, not because of that. Now, do they limit that to 300 or is that? Oh, it limited to 300. Yep. Okay. I was wondering, cause you said, yeah, just a question. Literally I was in class, uh, when I was working on my MDM, I was in class with a lady from Russia who moved from Russia to Birmingham. Uh, and she was brilliant, just absolutely brilliant. And so people came from all over the world. And my, one of my professors was, was an Anglican from, uh, from, uh, England. Uh, he, he has PhD from Oxford. I mean, it was just a huge egghead school. Um, so anyway, so that's, that's second. And then the third is New Orleans that I mentioned, my DM in, uh, New Orleans. Uh, so I think the, the schools like, like Beeson that are so niche and small and have tons of money, I think they're going to keep doing what they're doing, which is only, I, I don't think they do anything online and I know they don't have any like external campuses, but I think they'll always be there. And I think they're going to just, until Jesus comes, I think they'll be there. And that's wonderful. No, you know, no complaints with that. Um, schools like, uh, New Orleans that has the campus in New Orleans. And when I did my DM in, I did not have to go and live in New Orleans, but I did have to go back a number of times and do the week long modules on campus. But New Orleans also has the flexibility to have the satellite centers like the one they have at Johnson Ferry. They have one in Birmingham. My friend, uh, Tima Knight has taught, uh, for many years at the Birmingham extension. And so I think schools like, uh, New Orleans that have the flexibility to have a campus and also to have the satellites, I think they're going to be around for a long time because they're flexible and they're, they're, they haven't changed the quality of their education. They're still a very, it's all these, they're very conservative in their theology. And so I think there's always going to be a need for New Orleans as they continue to morph and change. Uh, Luther Rice, we have certainly gone through much more metamorphosis than the other two schools that I've, I've been to, uh, Luther Rice started in 1962 because the Southern Baptist schools have gotten so liberal. Thank God they're not liberal anymore, but at the time they were, and it was on campus only in Jacksonville, Florida. Then they kind of morphed into this quote unquote correspondence school. And that's sort of where Luther Rice got its bad reputation for a number of years. Oh, that's just a non-accredited, it was, it was a non-accredited correspondence school, call it what it is, or was. Uh, thankfully, uh, the school moved to, uh, Atlanta, Lithonia, where our current location is in the nineties and continued for a while, you know, with their, the correspondence and not being accredited, uh, somewhere along the line, they got TRACS, T-R-A-C-S accreditation, which was a step in the right direction. And then they got ABHE, uh, accreditation, which is another step in the right direction. They dropped all the correspondence stuff and it was on campus. When I went, when I did my undergraduate degree at Luther Rice, I came to campus and I sat in classrooms and I was taught by professors and we had ABHE and TRACS accreditation and it was quality. I've sat in classrooms at Luther Rice, at Beeson and at New Orleans. I'm telling you, it was quality at undergraduate education. And then Luther Rice became pioneers in distance education. In the past, they did it through correspondence, which was not a great, but it was the best they could do. But they became pioneers in distance education online. Uh, our delivery system had in the past was Blackboard. Now it's Moodle. Well, you'll, a student will go on that week, watch, uh, recorded lecture. We'll have quizzes and, and then there'll be live interactions that student will have with the professor, professor and the other students, kind of like a zoom thing. Um, is it the same as a classroom? Probably not, but it's harder. There's more work. And so, uh, it's, that's the future, James. I think, I think for a Beeson, the future is just on campus with quality, you know, these highbrow educators, uh, New Orleans is, is big, but it's flexible. Uh, they're doing some great things. And I love my, my, my friends at New Orleans and, and for us, uh, we, we offer both on campus and online. The majority of our students are online. That's what they choose. Uh, we have students all over the world. Uh, I I'm the director of the doctor of ministry program. I have a student in Lebanon and he's going to be on campus in June and he's going to be preaching at my church. I invite him to stand in my pulpit. He's going to be preaching there. I have students in Africa, but the majority of my students are in Georgia and Alabama, just right around the South. And so that's the future that I see. It's, it's quality accredited education that people can access online. Just like you said, now, if I can, if you let me say one more thing about what does the future look like, uh, then I'll, I'll be quiet. And then the, one of the exciting things that I'm, that I love about the future of education is we're offering these little bite-sized accredited, uh, certificates that people can take. So if you have no education at all, you can do an undergraduate certificate, a certificate on the undergraduate level. For example, uh, if you take biblical studies, here's a guy he's in, he's in Mississippi, Brett. He has no education, but he wants to further himself. He can apply to Luther Rice, get accepted, and, uh, he can take a certificate in biblical studies, three classes, Old Testament survey. So he gets the big picture of the Old Testament, New Testament survey. He gets the big picture of the New Testament, and hermeneutics. And so what three great classes to take. And once he takes those three classes, he can actually come to Atlanta in May and graduate with a cap and gale. And that's how much we value these accredited certificates. He can then be done and he can hang his certificate on the wall in his office, or he can roll those nine hours into a full undergraduate degree. I think that's a wonderful thing for pastors to do or anybody on staff. We also have those available on the graduate level. I think this is the future. I think this is where we're headed. So here's the guy's got, he's got, uh, an undergraduate degree. Maybe he did 20 years ago. He's got it from whatever Bible college or whatever college period, whatever university he got it from, uh, under, he can take things like Greek. He can take three semesters of Greek, or he can take three semesters of Hebrew, get a certificate, come to Atlanta, graduate, uh, leadership. We have a certificate in church revitalization. How cool is that? So they can take these three classes, get a certificate to hang on their wall frame, come to graduation, and you don't have to obligate yourself for two years, three years, four years, whatever a typical degree program is. Uh, we have them in apologetics, biblical counseling, you mentioned a moment ago, uh, just all kinds of, of pastoral ministry, uh, theology. Uh, these are all great, um, ways for someone to either get started in education or to, to, to further their education and not obligate themselves for a huge amount of money and a huge amount of time. And so I, I see that as the future online quality accredited and offering these little bite-sized, uh, courses where you can, uh, where you can excel and you can receive expertise in a niche area. So Brett, before you ask your last question, um, and we'll wrap this up, how you get that certificate in biblical counseling or leadership or church revitalization, what, what does that exactly look like? Or how does that, um, I guess, how does that, you've got a master's degree, you've got a bachelor's degree, like, how does that actually, would it be like a, um, specialization in church about, I mean, how, how would that be listed or someone convey that? Cause you say a certificate. Yeah. How, how would you see even per lesson? I think, I think, I think the word specialization is a good word. Uh, if you've got a, uh, let's say you've got an undergraduate degree from wherever, uh, whatever, uh, uh, Bible college or college that you have. So you, you, you have a BA, you have a college degree, an undergraduate degree, but you also have these nine hours in Greek. So you can say, Hey, I've got an undergraduate degree, but I also have nine hours on the master's level in Greek, or I've got nine hours on the master's level. I have a, I have a certificate on the master's level in leadership. So a specialization, if you will, in leadership. And then you could, like I say, you can just let that stand alone, or you can roll that into a full master's degree and, you know, get either a, uh, a master of arts degree or a master of divinity degree. You know, um, it's really cool talking about this. I'm a full-time pastor going after, you know, my start my master's. And if it wasn't online, I wouldn't be able to do it. You know, I live three and a half hours away from the seminary and just with time and money, it just would not be feasible. So the fact that Luther Rice offers things like that is really, really cool. Uh, Marcus, I got, I'm gonna hit you with one last question, not in our show notes. So prepare yourself. All right. Um, there's a lot of churches today without pastors, um, in our County alone here in Mississippi, we have 32 churches, 10 of them don't have pastors. I've heard several, you know, higher ups in other schools and seminaries say that we don't have enough people in the schools to fill those positions in these churches. Like they're, we're going to have, for instance, have a lot of pastors retire, a lot of pastors go out of the ministry and we don't have enough people in this, in, in schools coming up in the ranks to fill these positions. And my question to you is, is that your experience? And if it is, what, if anything, can we do about it? Definitely is my experience. Uh, my last years, uh, with the mission board serving as director of church ministry relations for the Georgia Baptist mission board, which is the Georgia Baptist convention. Um, we just did, you know, rule of thumb was always about 10%. So if there's 3,600, just Southern Baptist church, not counting the IFB church is not counting the non-denominational or, or whatever, just Southern Baptist churches at a 3,600, about 360 was the rule of thumb would not have a pastor. Now, the last year that I was with the mission board was 2020. So you remember what was going on in 2020 with COVID and everything. The best estimate that we got that year was about 400 churches in Georgia did not have a pastor. Now the churches that pay $150,000 a year that have a big staff, you know, they're going to find a pastor. Let's face it. They're going to have all the applicants they need, but it's the smaller churches, especially the bivocational churches. We have like 1,450 bivocational churches in Georgia. That's really where there's a need. A man who is called by God to be a pastor does not really have a problem finding a place to preach and whether he's going to just allow himself, his name to be put out as pulpit supply as an interim or as a full-time or as a pastor, a senior pastor. There's plenty of opportunities for a person. There's always more need than there are people available. That's just, that's been my experience. That's, that's anecdotal. I've got no evidence to back that up. That's just my experience. And it is true that in most of the people in seminary, aren't people getting an education because they want to come out of seminary and be a pastor. In our school, at Luther Rice, most of my students are already pastors. They're not looking for a job. It's not like, hey, we're going to graduate 100 people in May and there's 100 guys available. No, they're already pastors. If I graduate, if we graduate 100 people in May, maybe four of them are going to be looking for a pastorate somewhere. If we graduate 100 people, some of those are ladies that are like, you know, writers or Sunday school teachers or missionaries or whatever. So it's not like all of these schools after May and have all of these people out there flooding the market, trying to find a job. That's just not the case. Of 3,600, and I used to make this statement. We have 3,600 churches in Georgia, but we don't have 3,600 pastors. We really don't. And so if you're called by God, equipped by the Holy Spirit, then, and you're not preaching anywhere, I don't know what the deal is, buddy. I don't know what to tell you because there's plenty of places to preach. There's plenty of churches that are looking. It may not be a church that's full-time. It may be a church that pays, you know, $600 a month. You may have to move somewhere, but there are plenty of churches out there looking for pastors that have God's touch on them. Yeah. And, you know, I think, I think there's like 4,600 churches in North Carolina Baptist and Southern Baptist. And I think the last I heard was like 20, 25% or without pastors, which is incredible. And then one of the things that was even mentioned, I think, in our last convention was if there's that many churches without pastors, why would I go to the NC Baptist job board? There's not that many churches listed. And then it goes back to, well, it's not our job to list churches that are without pastors. It's that church and that association to help facilitate those things. And so, you know, it's, again, churches working in cooperation to help the cause of Christ and ultimately for the gospel sake. And so, man, I love what you guys are doing. I learned some stuff today, even about Luther Rice and love that certificate program. It piqued my interest a little bit. And hopefully you guys will, listening, if you have any questions, you can reach out to Dr. Marcus Merritt. And I like using the doctor because it makes him sound really, really official. And so we're excited about having, about him coming on here today. And any closing thoughts, Brett or Marcus, before we shut the show down? I have some closing thoughts and you didn't ask me what I'm really excited about. I'm really excited about us being able to go back to Israel very soon. Amen. And I know this is not about Israel, but I take students and pastors. Yes. And we're looking, we're going to have you back soon. We're going to have you back soon after the summer break to talk about Israel. And man, we could, ooh, we could make a three hour episode. I love talking about Israel. Let's do it. Yes. Yes. Love it. But thank you so much for being with us today. I have learned, I've learned a lot too, reflected on a lot. And I, you know, this is going to be a good resource, good content for somebody curious about this, who's looking into further their education, who's got questions about it. Really, really good stuff. So I think that just about covers it, James. Love it. Well, thank you, Marcus, again for coming on. And until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. I found my new name, found that good grace, found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance, found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast, or whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast.

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