126. Freedom In The Church - Services and Structure with Brian Edwards

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Saferick and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. I'm excited to be back with you today. We've got an awesome, awesome interview lined up here in just a little bit with Brian Edwards, and we're excited about having him come on. You may have heard of him before. He's one of the three hosts of the Recovering Fundamentals podcast. We're part of the network, and he's going to come on and share some history of Hope Church and where he's been at in ministry. Again, we're in our In the Church series talking through services and structure last week, and so this week we're going to get an expert interview from him to talk about the service and structures that they've went through. as someone who was an IFB pastor and has come out of that and went through that, and so we're really excited about having him come on. But before then, Brett, how are you doing? How was your Sunday, and how are things going in your area, in your neck of the woods? Listen, we had an excellent Sunday. We had one of our missionaries come in from Papua New Guinea, and she's a medical missionary, and she's presented to our people and gave us a great report. She did a great job. And then I'm wrapping up my series on the Baptist distinctives. This past Sunday was two offices. We talked about pastors and deacons. And then afterwards, we had a baptism. And it's such a great time when you have a baptism in church. And the guy that we baptized is just someone who's growing. He's being discipled. He's learning. This small group format that we have had, that we've started in our church, we've got rid of Sunday night and started small groups. And it is just reaping rewards and benefits, and people are being discipled, and people are growing and learning. And just to hear Taylor was the guy that we baptized, and just to hear him talk about, you know, he's learned the significance of baptism and why it's important and why it needs to be in the church and that it's a public profession and all this stuff that he's picked up just from the preaching from small group, asking questions. It's just discipling, man. That's what this thing is all about. And I'm seeing it definitely in our church. It's starting to reap rewards. And I'm just excited about the ministry, man. But I'll tell you what I'm sick of. I'm sick of the cold weather. Is it cold up there? Dude, it got a cold snap. I had shorts on, and I was ready to go. And I don't check the weather, man. I just get up and go. And so when shorts come out, I just leave shorts on. And I left Monday out of the house, and we had football practice that day. And, dude, I was cold. I was like, dude, this is getting chilly out here. So the last two days, I've had to break my pants back out. I'm upset at that. You know, I want it to be cold. But then once it gets warm, I want it to stay warm. I don't want to go back and forth and cause these problems. And so I hate having to break the pants back out. And then you got – so I'm like the same way. I got the shorts, but then I also have the hoodie. And so I'm resistant to go back to the pants. So I wear the hoodie, and then I look like, you know, I'm winter up top and summer on the bottom. Right, right. But I am totally sick of the cold weather. But one thing that this time of year does bring, and I want to get your opinion on this, it's crawfish season. Do they have the crawfish up there where you're at? Do they have the crawfish bulls? No, man. We don't have that. We have Brunswick stews, and that's about it. We have some chicken stew. That's about all we got up here. We don't have any crawfish. Have you had crawfish? The crawdads – oh, man. I lived in Arkansas for four years. You know how many crawdads I sucked the heads off of? It was awesome. Oh, yeah. So that was – love it. Love it. I'm going to have to find me a crawfish bull soon because the season is February through June. So I'm going to have to find me a boil, get me some – I used to just eat the corn, the potatoes, all the fixings in there. But then I had a buddy of mine at his senior graduation party beg me to try the crawfish, and I haven't looked back since. Love it. Yeah, some guys from Louisiana, from your neck of the woods, introduced me to it in Arkansas. It was my junior year of college, and my junior and senior year, man, I couldn't get enough of the crawfish and crawdads. It was awesome. So, yeah. Well, Brett, we've got a couple of things. Again, we've been mentioning – we'll briefly hit that before we get into our meeting with Brian. But we've got our meetup in Indiana that we're going to be doing. I just got off of an interview with a lady from – it's called the We Are One podcast, a brand-new podcast coming out. She's interviewing some guys and ladies on their Bible college days in the IFB. And so I shared my story. But she's in Indianapolis. She's in Indiana. She talked about meeting up with us while we come up there for the convention. And so if you're in that area, let us know. We'll have some time where we'll be renting a house and hanging out, and we'd love to have you be a part of that with us. Next up, Brett, what will we have coming up after that? For the sake of the Gospel Conference, this year is going to be in Catoosa, Hope Church Catoosa, at JC's Church right outside of Chattanooga. And so we've already got our vacation set around there. So we're going to be there. Other podcasts hopefully will be there. And we're going to – if you want to come to the sake of the Gospel Conference, we encourage you to do that. You're going to have a great time. We have a great time every year. It's such an opportunity just for us to get to know people that are on this island with us of ex-fundies. And we have a whole community around us. And we can tell people about our experiences. And they look at us like a calf looking at a new gate. But when you get around people that have been where you are and know what you went through and they've climbed their way out of the legalism just like you did, it's just something entirely different. It's a great time. It's a great time for refresh, for restart, for encouragement. And I have been encouraged every year that I've been. I've been to JC's Church several times. I am really, really looking forward to the For the Sake of the Gospel Conference this year. And then what we got next? We have Israel coming up one year from now. And, man, we're excited about going back to Israel, leading our trip. Shabbat Shalom. And we can't wait. Yes, Shabbat Shalom. We can't wait to be back there. Got a great group of people that are signed up to go. There's still room for you to sign up if you want to go with us. And we hope you'll go with us. And when we come back from our summer break, we're going to be talking about Israel. We're going to have some interviews with some different people. Try to line up some interviews with people there in Israel now and talk through some things that are going on. And I know it's a hot topic right now with the war over there. And we definitely want to make sure you're safe. But we are excited about going. Several tours have opened back up. And I know several people that are going. And so you don't want to miss that. Brad, I want to mention one last thing. We had a guest on a couple of months back, back in January, Shannon Makagina. And she's in Uganda now. And she's over there serving. And she is trying to raise $1,000 to get her work visa to be able to stay there in Uganda for at least up to three years. She'll be able to travel around and be able to be there and be around that. And so if you have, I'll try to put this in the link as well. But she's raised a couple of dollars already so far. And is just trying to get money to get that work visa there. So if you would like to help out in that, please go and support her. She shared this several times over the last couple of months, over the last couple of weeks, about being able to try to raise that money. So if you can help out at all, we want to push that forward and try to help her out as much as we possibly can. Absolutely. Shannon's great. I like what she's doing down there. We've been supporting Shannon. And so anything we can do to help her in her ministry, she's got a great testimony. We've interviewed her here. Anything that we can do to help her in her ministry, I would more than happy to do. That's right. Let's do it. So without further ado, let's jump into our interview with Brian at this time. Let's do it. All righty. So great to have Sir Brian here with us today. Thank you for being with us on the podcast. And great to have you here. How you been doing today? Doing fantastic. I actually just had the chance to go and have lunch with my 20-year-old daughter. And guys, I've got to be honest. To see what God's doing in her heart and life right now, the spiritual growth that's taking place, the text conversations we're having. And then today to have a conversation with her about how the Holy Spirit is teaching her to understand that the peace of Christ is not peace in circumstances. It's peace in spite of the circumstances. To have that conversation with her, I'm pretty much on cloud nine right now because not only is she daddy's baby, but also to have the chance to hear her talk that out. I just realized in spite of my looks and my lack of hair and my age and my aches and pains, I am one blessed individual. So for that, I'm extraordinarily grateful. Are you still adjusting to the empty nest life? I've come to the conclusion I can't adjust. So I was talking to my dad recently about God's will. And this was what I said to him. God's will is God's will regardless. But the Bible never said you had to love it. So I know that they have to grow up. That's the natural flow of life. But nobody said I had to love it. And so I've just come to the conclusion. I'm just going to live in perpetual hatred of my babies being out of my house. I love it. I love it. You know, I've got three. Brett's got two. And mine are younger. So I'm still enjoying that. I've got a three-year-old turning three tomorrow. And so I'm excited about that. But, you know, life is so busy. And I try to often, me and my wife, my wife is really good about telling me, James, slow down. Take time just to hang out with the kids. And not, I'm the one that, it's always looking, you know, four years, my son will be driving. I'm looking to the future. She's like, no, no, no, let's back up a little bit. Let's enjoy the moment where we're at now. And so it's been good. I know I'm trying to slow down. My oldest is 16. So in two years, he can legally leave me and go off to college. And I'm not looking forward to that. But, yeah, you just got to stop and enjoy it and don't rush through it, you know? Well, you know, I think you guys will be surprised by how quiet the house suddenly gets. And if I can give both of you some advice, you know, I've been a pastor now for about 33 years. I know we're going to get into that journey today in this conversation, so I won't jump ahead. But have had this incredible privilege of pastoring a congregation that, by the grace of God, has flourished beyond anything that I would have ever imagined. Guys, I sacrificed so much of my wife and my children on the altar of ministry. And almost all of the people that I sacrificed that for in the moment, living under what I thought was the urgent, most all of those people have walked away. And so this is what I frequently say. At the end of life, when you're on your deathbed, there will only be a few people around that bed who are weeping because they can't imagine living without you in their life. Live the best of your life for those people. I didn't do that well. So love your kids well. I know we've already jumped into the deep end of the pool right here at the very beginning. But make sure that Dr. Adrian Rogers taught me something. Right before Dr. Rogers died, he sought out a few guys from across the country that he believed showed promise in ministry. I was privileged to be one of those guys. And he brought us in for several days and just spent time with us and poured into us. And I'll never forget the day that I confessed to him in front of a group of guys. I'm not taking care of my wife well. I'm not taking care of my family well. And I'm failing at this. And I stood there in tears. And Dr. Adrian Rogers looked at me and he said, stop. Stop doing that is what he was saying. He had that deep, intimidating voice. But I'll never forget. This is what he said. He said, Brian, do you believe the church is the bride of Christ? Well, when you're talking to Adrian Rogers, you don't take anything for granted. So I thought the right answer is yes. So I said, yes, I believe the church is the bride of Christ. And then he looked at me and he said this. So do you think Jesus is incapable of taking care of his bride and needs your help? And then he said, you let Jesus care for his bride and you care for your bride and your family. And I've struggled to do that well. But make sure that you guys cherish the moments because I'm living proof now. They go by much quicker than you wish they had. Such a good word. Such a good word. Good stuff. Well, we're going to get started into our that was our pre-interview. And that was all free, as the good old Baptist pastors used to say. But we're going to get started today. And we brought the professional on today to talk about ministry and the evolution of ministry. So Brian has been in ministry, I think he said, 30 something years, which is incredible legacy for us to look to as well. But Brian, when we get started with how you got started in ministry, what was this draw for you to come into ministry and sort of share your story on that side of it? So, you know, I'd always said growing up the son of a Baptist pastor evangelist, I'd always said that I never wanted to be in ministry. You guys have to realize I grew up in the home of an evangelist where my dad preached 50 weeks a year, 20 some different states. He would take one week off around Christmas and then one week off in the summer. For me growing up, the church represented what took my dad away. You know, there wasn't another woman or there wasn't a hobby or an addiction that my dad was living for. But so much demand was placed on his time. And then when we traveled with him, there was so much of the be seen but not heard. And although you were in a crowd of people around a crowd of people, I think there was a certain degree of loneliness or a certain feeling of not really having access to your parent. You know, my dad's busy right now. The people are talking to him. The pastors are talking to him. That's the adults table. You know, you very much were aware of those things. And so growing up, I didn't want to be in ministry. Growing up, I'd also experienced the difficulty of growing up in the glass house that's constantly observed by people who are among the church. I didn't think that highly of people who professed Christianity because of the conversations I had seen, the treatment that I had viewed. And then the conversations that I'd heard, because let's just be honest, the evangelist would show up to town and the pastor suddenly backs up a tandem dump truck load of everything that he's been dealing with and wrestling with and fighting with. And so as a kid, I'm hearing those conversations thinking, man, these church people are ruthless. You know, they're they're just short of werewolves and vampires. So I didn't want to be in ministry at all. As a teenager, I lived through a real season of rebellion, had to go to multiple different schools. I was either living for the attention of my dad or I was living in rebellion against the church and mom and dad's faith. It may have been a combination of all of those. I lived in rebellion for a good while, broke my mom and dad's heart. My dad one day was waiting on the swing out in front of our little house there in North Carolina. I pulled into the driveway about the time I should be getting home from school. I was going to yet another school. It was a really large public high school. And. I was walking down the hill, my dad sitting on the swing and he said, hey, Brian, come over here and sit down with me for a little bit. So I walked over, we sat down on the swing together and. We talked for just a minute or two about nothing. And then my dad said, how was school today? I'd school, you know, school, school. My dad looked at me, said, Brian, you're a liar. The school called today. And you've skipped the last 18 days of school. I'd skipped 18 days in a row. Um, that's quite an accomplishment, fellas. To some degree, I might be a little proud of that, but. For the sake of a Christian podcast, I feel so bad about it. I'm even convicted to this day. Um, but. You know, just. Just at that moment, there was just kind of a brick wall there. And my thought in that moment was my dad's going to get raging mad. Um, he's going to go to the switch tree and cut off a stick this time. And. You know, let's take another weapon. Let's. I can, I can deal with this. My dad's going to be angry. But instead, my dad started crying. I saw a big old tear start flowing down his face. And this is what he said. He said, Brian, um, you may betray me. You may betray your family. You may go against. All that we believe. All that we've stood for. You may, you may ruin our family name. Brian, you may go to the very bottom, but when you get there. Look beside of you. And I'm going to be right there with you. Man, guys, that melted my heart. And it began a journey of the Holy Spirit softening my heart. Um, I really realized in that moment, I think better than I ever had the love that God had for me. My dad had demonstrated that well in that moment. Um, so God changed my life. Um, I still didn't want to be in ministry, but for the first time really ever, my heart was inclined toward him. My dad was up preaching one night in North Carolina at a revival. Um, I just wept uncontrollably. That night, as clearly as I'm talking to you guys right now, I knew, Brian, I have set you apart for the gospel work. But I mean, I really didn't trust myself. Um, and so I stood up that night in front of the congregation. This was what I said, fellas. I believe God's calling me to preach. Uh, so I'm going to start preaching. And if he tells me to stop and he's not calling me, then I'll quit. That was as honest as I, I could be. And so now that's been about 35 years ago and I've given him a thousand reasons to, but for some reason in grace, he hasn't told me to quit. And that's where the journey started. Then, uh, you know, I started preaching some, uh, you know, people would be gracious to me because my dad was Craig Edwards. I think let's have brother Craig's son come over on a Sunday night during a holiday. Well, I need a vacation day. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get him over on Sunday night. And when, when, you know, it's going to be the smallest possible crowd, he can only do so much damage. Um, I went to preach my first sermon guys. I'll never forget. I had pages and pages and pages of notes. And I said, there's no way I'm ever going to be able to get through this in one service and prayer and all, uh, I think it was about 10 minutes and I was sitting down thinking, what just happened? I don't even know what I said. And I'm looking at these people and it was obvious. They didn't know what I just said. Um, but you know, God was really faithful and gracious. And, and so that's where the journey started for me, um, a porch swing. My dad demonstrating the love of God to me by loving me in spite of my sin, the Holy Spirit using that to arrest my heart. And then me coming to an understanding of the greatest purpose in life is the purpose and the cause of Jesus Christ. And a life dedicated to that is a life dedicated to what matters most. Amen. Amen. You know, no, and I'll, I'll tell you right now, no church ministry or church model has personally impressed me more than hope church. I'm blown away by your structure, by the support that you have for other pastors in the hope church network. I'm impressed by the family that you've created. I feel like, you know, those pastors, they've got support. They don't feel like they're out there alone. I think that hope churches fostered a great atmosphere for, for church growth, discipleship and church planting. Now, when it comes to church planting, sometimes we hear things like all the time, like we've got plenty of churches out there. There's one on every corner. Let's fill them before we start new ones, help the churches that are struggling first. We hear this in opposition to church planting. So I want to ask you why plant a church? So if you don't mind, I'll, I'll take the long way around. Um, if that's okay. So I planted at that point in time, blessed hope Baptist church with six people. Um, we were trying to survive. We were in an upstairs office room. Our first month's rent was going to be $400. The only reason we rented that place was because it was cheap. It was dirty. Um, the air conditioning didn't work. I tell this Brett and people don't believe me in the summer, the length of our service was determined by the thermostat. We had an older gentleman who would watch the thermostat. And when it got to 80 degrees inside, no matter if you were at the first of the sermon, the middle of the sermon in the middle of John three 16, when he gave you the alert that it was 80 degrees service was over and, um, you know, you just couldn't take it anymore. 80 degrees was everybody's limit. And even that was probably beyond the limit, but. You know, started with six people, incredibly humble beginning. Uh, after a couple of years, we were able to rent a small church building, only 50% of our congregation after voting 100% to go only 50% went, uh, we had a financial collapse, not that we really had any finances at all, but we had a financial collapse. Um, it was during that season that I really believed that the right thing to do was throw in the towel. Uh, my dad was encouraging me to throw in the towel. Brian, you can quit now and no one's even going to know about this. The church is so small. This will not be a blemish on your future. That's what every voice I trusted was saying with the exception of the voice of the Holy spirit. So, um, even when, you know, I would show up for a church gathering and there would only be my wife and I, and I would cry my way home, cry myself to sleep at night. There was a driving force inside of me that I believed I was exactly where God wanted me to be doing what God wanted me to do. Uh, finally, uh, only by a miracle of God, um, things started gaining traction guys. We, we grew from about 20 people to about 500 people. So quickly that I, I don't even know what to accredit that to. I used to have guys ask me, so how did it happen? How did you do that? And I would say, um, it was God. You wouldn't believe how many pastors have looked at me as if to say, what else? He knows if God wasn't, that's not the right answer. There has to be a formula. There wasn't. Um, it was God proving that he works through weakness and ignorance. And I was a great opportunity with regard to weakness and ignorance because I was both of those. Um, but God, God grew the church. And then we went through our transition period. When the new Testament wrecked me, we went through the transition period. I think we'll talk more about that later. And we were finally seeking to be a new Testament church. I was reading and studying through the new Testament. Now, guys, when I tell you this, this makes me look really dumb, but I have to tell you this, you know, fundamentalism thrives on ignorance and it's ignorance by isolation. So I've been isolated from everything and everybody else. And so I'm studying through the new Testament and I'll never forget the night I took my Bible and I ran in to my wife and I said, Oh, my word, I have just found something in the Bible. That's going to be revolutionary. This is incredible. Like I'm basically jumping up and down, you know, all inch and a half of my vertical leap. And I say to her, this is amazing. What is it? When you read the new Testament, healthy churches give birth to other churches. This is incredible. There's like a mother church. And then there's all these babies that are commissioned out of this mother. This is amazing. And, and I remember, I remember telling my wife, a few other guys, if I can get this in the book formula, this is going to blow up. Well, then I finally went to Lifeway and realized there are about 500 books ahead of mine. And it was called church planting. I was going to write a book, healthy churches, giving birth to other churches, which would have took a really long cover just to get the title there, but healthy churches, giving birth to churches. And so we were a church at that point in time of a few hundred. And the more I studied it in the new Testament, man, the more the Holy spirit stoked that fire in my heart. This is, this is my calling. This, this is why God's called me into ministry. Um, so came before the church and I said, I believe there'll be a time when we give birth to other churches. I believe God has this for our future. And we tried, I hired a great young guy by the name of Randall Waller, who is a hope church pastor. Even now, um, Randall had a great education. He has his master's in church planting way more knowledgeable, um, than I was and likely am, but we tried to plant a church and it failed. And, um, that's when we realized you have to have the DNA. You have to have the substance, you have to have the resources so that you're actually planting. You know, mutts are really good at making babies. Nobody really knows what they are. Um, you know, it's better in a controlled environment. We didn't have that controlled environment. And so that began a process, Brett, of 14 years now of developing incredible paperwork, incredible structure that has driven us again and again and again to the New Testament. Because we initially, and even today, set in place the rule that we're not following anyone's church model. We're only going to pursue living deeper and deeper and deeper into the New Testament. So we would search through the New Testament and allow that to shape our identity, our actions, our investments. And, and we planted Hope Church Halifax. We had about 25 people driving from that area here to Danville. Uh, Randall Waller that I just mentioned went and planted that congregation. That congregation in that little small town is now a congregation of an average of about 250 people. So many people have been baptized there. So we saw the benefit in planting. Now, if you want to know the real reason we started planting the multiplication of churches, I've had a heavy burden for New England. Uh, the fact that Christianity has been virtually non-existent in New England. Thankfully, there are some good churches there now that we see growing, which is an incredible thing. But I knew that we couldn't impact New England on our own. So the multiplication of churches was initially, and even to some degree still is, about the prayer and the hope of impacting, uh, the gospel volume in the New England states. Um, so planting because the gospel has to be spread. Planting because churches are constantly dying. Planting now because more churches than ever in American history are dying. Uh, planting because we're told to go and make disciples. God's plan A is the local church, and there is no plan B. Planting because communities are still to be reached. Lives are still to be impacted. Planting because it allows pastors to live in close brotherhood, actually experiencing closeness on a level that very few people ever experience. Planting because missional dollars are increased. Planting because the more churches we plant that are gospel-centered, gospel-saturated, the louder the volume of the gospel grows. So I can go on and on and on, but there, there are a multitude of reasons for planting. And there are a lot of things in my life I regret, but I will not close my eyes in death having regretted this journey of living for the only thing Jesus died to save, and that's the church. Man, that's so good. And, uh, you know, I've appreciated the conversation so far and what you guys, what Brian, you, and, and Hope Church has meant to me and the support you guys have thrown my way. Uh, man, it's been great over this last little bit. Getting to know Jason a little bit and him and Stephanie coming down. Uh, man, we still text often and it's been great, uh, to connect with him. And of course, Nathan and, and some of the other guys that are part of Hope Church. Um, but as you, you, let's back up just a little bit. You began talking through, uh, your story a little bit of, of planting Hope Church, Blessed Hope Baptist at first. Was your dad's church in Mount Airy also Blessed Hope Baptist? It was for a little while, you know, that a lot of guys, when my dad started transitioning out of what he had been a part of, you know, my dad was steeped in fundamentalism. Uh, one of the most famous independent Baptist evangelist in the nation. Yeah. Um, my dad eventually partnered with us, uh, when we were Blessed Hope. Uh, it wasn't Blessed Hope Baptist. It was just Blessed Hope. We dropped the Baptist before we dropped the Blessed. By the way, a lot of people ask why we dropped the Blessed. I wish there was some deep spiritual reason. Yeah. Have you guys ever heard the real reason? I have. Yeah. Have you heard it, Brett? I have not. So, so people would, would say Blessed Hope because unless you were brought up in a church culture, you didn't know you were supposed to add the ED. Yeah. And so people would call up and they would say, is this Blessed Hope? Or people would ask, are you the pastor of Blessed Hope? And so finally, one day I said, if one more person says blessed, that's it. We're done with it. And sure enough, uh, there was an insurance company or, or some company that called and they left a voicemail on the office answering machine. And is this Blessed Hope? And when I heard it, I said, that's it. Everybody knows the word hope. That's the most powerful word in the name. Um, and so hope church it is. And, uh, but, but so my dad, yes, partnered with us, by the way, that was an accusation that sadly, a lot of pastors who had called themselves, my dad's friends brought against him. He loves his son more than he loves the Bible or more than he loves the Lord more than he loves his heritage. Um, no, we just, we're learning to love truth more than traditionalism. And there's a lot of people who didn't like that. Yeah. Well, I, uh, the reason I asked was I'd went to your dad's church when it was Blessed Hope, Blessed Hope Church. And then I knew that you had Blessed Hope Church and, and, uh, up in, um, uh, Danville. And so I didn't know if it was a plant out of his church or how that worked. That, that was just a personal question for me. Uh, but over the years, there's been an evolution of Hope Church. There's, as we've talked about, um, can you sort of talk through the, we're talking about style and structure and, and what that looks like, but sort of talk through how that change has happened, how you went from Blessed Hope Baptist to Blessed Hope Church. to Hope Church and, and what that looked like, you know, as you talk about the New Testament and getting closer to the New Testament church. So how did that style and that evolution happen? And then the follow-up will be, of course, resistance happened. So, so how do we deal with all those things? And then Brett's got something at the very end. So, um, so guys, I was a pastor. The best way I know to describe this, I was holding someone else's baby. Mm-hmm. I was basically preaching the concepts, sermons, verses, illustrations, and stories that had been passed down to me. I knew all of the right talking points. Remember, I'd had a front row seat to every great camp meeting in the country. Mm-hmm. So I had heard the best of the best. I knew how to make people cry. I knew how to get people excited, knew how to, um, get people down to the altar, you know, and there's even a certain talent. And there's one guy who's a pastor evangelist who possesses this talent incredibly well on the weeks that you failed to study. Um, you know, you can always have a great testimony meeting and leave saying the big preacher preached. Mm-hmm. Um, I knew those things. That was familiar to me. I started reading the New Testament, um, because I'd heard a challenge. And the challenge was, how would you see the Bible if no one had ever influenced you with regard to how to see the Bible? What would you believe about the Bible if all you had was a Bible? Well, that really found a place in my heart. And so I thought, man, let me just, let me start working through the New Testament as if I, I don't know anything. Guys, as I started working through the New Testament, I came to the realization. I don't know anything. I wasn't reading it as if I didn't know anything. I really didn't know anything. Yeah. So I start reading through the New Testament and I start to realize I don't sound like this. I don't look like this. Where are some of these things I've been preaching? And why haven't I been preaching these things that are clearly in the New Testament? So the New Testament started wrecking my world. And I've never felt more unqualified in all of my life. I've been attempting to lead people. I'm not even really leading them anywhere other than hopefully we can have a great Sunday morning service, leave saying there was a good crowd and we had a great time. I'm not really leading anyone anywhere because I need to be led. So as I'm studying through the New Testament, I start to make notes. I start to see things that directly oppose my worldview, my ideology, my approach to church, to preaching. Well, guys, at that point in time, my calendar was full. I was preaching revivals. It's financially beneficial for me, for my family. No one ever asked me, have you fasted and prayed? No one ever asked me, are you living a holy life? No one ever asked me, do you battle with pornography or lust or cursing or greed? No one ever asked me any of those things. Oh, I preached out of a King James Bible. I wore a suit. I drove up in a Lincoln. Everything was good. No one ever thought to dig any deeper into my personal life. But I started reading the New Testament, guys, and it was so revolutionary for me. I wondered how I called myself a Bible believer, and I really didn't know what I was believing. So I started studying the New Testament. I started writing things down that directly contradict what I've always believed, what I've always preached. I'm thinking, because it's the Bible, everybody will be excited about it. As I start sharing it, I start, man, I'm getting cancellation after cancellation. It's obvious word spreading. I'm starting to be called now a radical, a compromiser. My dad even came to me, and my dad and I have always been best friends, and we would get into arguments. And then I would quote scripture back to my dad. Well, you know my dad, I think, has about the whole Bible memorized, English, Greek, and Hebrew. He basically knows the whole thing. And my dad would get frustrated because he didn't have a verse. And I'll never forget one night, I looked at my dad and I said, it sucks when you don't have a verse, doesn't it? I've been there. And so what happened was, it got to the point that I couldn't ignore this. There wasn't a detour around it. So one day there's probably 600 people in our auditorium, and I stood up and in tears shared with everyone the journey that I'd been on. And this was what I said, before I die, I want to be a part of a biblical New Testament church. I don't even really know what that looks like, but I have to start moving in that direction. And there are going to be some of you who are not going to make this journey. But this is a matter of conviction. I have to do it. I didn't know when I said that we were going to lose about 300 people over the next three years. And that's when it really tests your fortitude and your conviction. By the way, getting up and screaming a sermon so that all of your echo chamber can stand and cheer you on, that's not the test of conviction. The test of conviction is when your biggest givers come and stand in your face and say, you're ruining this church. I'm leaving and I'm taking my giving with me. Conviction is when they're telling you that and you grip your Bible a little more tightly and you say, I'm doing what I'm doing because this is what God's leading me to do. If you have to leave, then you have to leave. That's conviction. I repeated that again and again and again. By the grace of God, we grew through that season. Lost 300 people and grew. Don't ask me the formula for that either. But that was the start of the journey. I hope I talked that out well enough so that it's followable. I live that in real time. By the way, guys, one of the reasons I care for pastors now and try to help pastors is through that season when all of my friends turned their backs on me. And I was completely alone. This is something I don't talk about very often. But I'm fairly certain I had a nervous breakdown. I felt like a failure. Felt like I'd made everyone in my life angry that everyone was disappointed with me. I didn't have anyone to turn to. Nobody agreed with me. I had clear text, chapter, verse to point to. It didn't matter. No one still agreed. And I just felt like a massive failure. I've now destroyed what God built. And, guys, I really had a nervous breakdown. And that's why when we began this journey of church planting, I said, I want God to allow Hope Church to rescue other like-minded guys out of fundamentalism. And I want to make sure, by the grace of God, that how I felt and what I endured, they never have to endure. Love that. One of the things, and we've talked over the last couple of weeks, we had Bob Coughlin come on and talk through worship and what that means and looks like. One of the things that I love about Hope Church, as me and you have talked over the last years or so, is every single Hope Church is different. Everyone has their own unique identity. It's not that Brian made, developed Hope Church Danville and said, okay, we're going to plant Hope Church Danville in 14 other locations. It's we're going to help revitalize or replant a church. And it's going to take on the DNA that's in that area already. It's that type of style and structure that has been so unique, that's different so often than these other church planting organizations that have come in and said, okay, we're going to, you're going to emulate. But we are. And that's the thing that I have loved and seen. And as I've talked to some of these other guys that have been so impactful, I think that has done so well. Thank you. The reason that's true, again, remember, we're modeling after the New Testament. Yeah. We're not modeling after anyone's model. That's what you see in the New Testament. Even the Apostle Paul, there were churches who supported and churches who didn't. They were still addressed as churches. Yeah. But apparently there was local leadership. And I mean, I know we can argue over that was right. That was wrong. They had promised, you know, but there was local leadership there. And so there has to be local contextualization. You know, what you guys have to realize is this. Truth is truth regardless of where it is. If you can't preach a sermon in America and then go to the Philippines and preach that same sermon, then there's an issue. Because the same biblical standards that are true in America are true in the Philippines. They're true in Africa. Truth is truth regardless. And so we're built on principles. So, for example, we are really, really, really picky about the music we sing. It has to be gospel-centered. It has to be to Jesus about Jesus, to God about God. Like, we're very strict. But you can sing that in a bluegrass style. You can sing that in a southern gospel style. You can find that in hymns. You can find that in modern worship. It's not stylistic. It's music based on a set of principles. So even if you go to a Hope Church and the music sounds different, well, the thing that will be true is it'll be gospel-saturated, to Jesus about Jesus, to God about God. That means we can sing, my Jesus, I love thee. But we don't sing, I'll fly away. It's just a principle that governs that. The other thing I would say, James, we do all share the same DNA. But even that DNA has local contextualization, and it's appropriated by local leadership. So, for example, Denise and I have been married this year. Can you believe this guy's going to be 35 years? Wow. I've aged in dog years, and she's barely aged at all. Something's not fair here. But we have three daughters. All three of our daughters look different. All three of our daughters have different personalities, different interests. Now, if you take them to a lab and you study their DNA, it's the exact same DNA. They grew up in the exact same house, but they're different. And so we believe there are a lot of planting networks, which we are not. We're a family. We're a planting family. That's a whole separate episode if you guys ever want to have that conversation. But because we're a family, the kids look different. And they emphasize different things. We believe a lot of churches operate like a corporation. Our desire is to operate like a church. So if this were McDonald's, you'd wear the same uniform. You would use the same wrappers, the same techniques, the same everything. But we're not that. We are a family of churches. And the family of God in different places looks very different and has different needs. For example, what I'm preaching right now may not be where your congregations are. So the last thing you need is a video of me with a prescribed sermon up on a screen. No, there needs to be somebody who lives with their finger on the pulse of that congregation who is led by the Holy Spirit to preach truth that correlates with where that congregation is at that time. So, yeah, we're all the same family, but some of us have freckles and some don't. And we have different color hair and then some of us have no hair at all. I mean, we're all the same family, but we look different. Brian, this last question is not on our list, but it goes off of a conversation me and you had a while back. If someone came to you and if you had to say what was the one thing you do well at Hope Church, what would you say that one thing is? Well, you know, Brett, I think that would likely change over time. It would be hard to narrow that down to one thing. But our heartbeat is to make disciples. That takes on multiple facets and shapes and emphasis. But at the heart of everything we're doing and we're working on right now, discipleship is at the heart of all of that. I think, Brett, we have been confronted with this question as a community of pastors, a family of pastors living together. If we aren't making disciples, can we take the New Testament and actually say that we're a church? We can say we're a religious organization. But can we say that we are a church? And so whether it's being a church that emphasizes care ministry, which we do. It's a church that emphasizes church planting. And we do. A church that emphasizes preaching the word. The word itself, not about it, not around it, it. And we do. I think the heart of all of that. Is our desire to be a disciple making. Church family. And, you know, everyone ought to be in two places at once. Discipling someone and being discipled by someone. I think that is perpetuity in the Christian life. That's truly at the heart of what we want to accomplish. And then in addition to that, we love our family well. That is one thing that I see that God has really done through these local hope churches. Is that we love our family incredibly well. That's so great. I love it. I love everything that you've said today. I'm for Hope Church. I'm for you guys. And I'm for the gospel. I'm for churches being planted. And, man, I just told Brett before you got on. I just got done with a discipleship meeting that me and a young guy had. And having another one tomorrow. And it's just, it's so vital for us to be investing in others. You look at the life of Jesus. You saw he constantly was pouring out into other people. While he allowed the Holy Spirit to pour back into him as he got away. And, you know, it's just the model that we should be following. I love it. And I share something with you real quick on that. Yeah. Do we have one second? We got as much time as you want, man. Let me tell you something I grabbed hold of recently. I was talking about discipleship with some of our disciple makers. And, you know, Jesus, the greatest discipler of all times, took 12 unlikely candidates, you know, minus Judas, including Paul. He took 12 unlikely candidates and changed the world. I mean, think about that. I've been to preach in Africa where they didn't know the name Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or, you know, anyone else like that. They knew the name of Jesus. You can't deny the effectiveness of what Jesus did through those men. I realized something over the last few months as we're in this discipleship making journey. To be a truly effective discipler, you have to be willing to give the compliment of flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father, which is in heaven. You have to be willing to give the compliments. But you also have to be the guy who's willing to say, get behind me, Satan. And I think a lot of times as a disciple maker, you just want to, you know, in the words of Tiny Tim, you want to just always tip toe through the tulips and you want to have all these beautiful conversations. But to be a true disciple maker, you've got to be willing to boldly call people out on their sin and in those areas where growth is required. That's a difficult place to be in. You know, you've got to be willing to look at Peter while he's asking what's going to happen to John the Baptist. I mean, what's going to happen to John the Apostle? You have to be willing to say to him, that's none of your business. But now for you, one day people are going to lead you where you don't want to go. You know, you're going to be martyred and you're going to suffer. Don't worry about John. That's my business. That's not yours. Those discipleship conversations are difficult. Yeah. And it has to have a relationship before that can happen, too. You've got to be able to have that equity of relationship to be able to say you're wrong. And I'm telling you this because I love you that you're wrong. And that's the difference that we often don't have. We want to just get up and say they're wrong without ever investing in having that relationship. Do you guys know Malcolm Carter? I don't. No. So Malcolm is one of my closest friends. Malcolm pastors a church in Alabama. Man, they probably have like 3,000 a weekend. But Malcolm's just as country as they come. We've been friends for years and I really trust him. And I tell everybody else, you have to have this in your life. So I've been a pastor for 30 some years. And, you know, God has put me in places and situations and opportunities that I would have never imagined, by the way, which is a testament to his grace. But you've got to have this person in your life. A little while back, I was struggling with something. And Malcolm's one of those people that I go to. So I went to Malcolm and he heard me. He listened. And then when I got finished sharing, he said, Brian, why are you being an idiot? And so I said, come on, man, that's rough. He said, well, you're being an idiot. This is why. And he finished the conversation. And after he pushed back on me, I said, man, I'm being an idiot. You've got to have that person in your life. And you're right. That comes through relational equity. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, man, thanks so much for coming today and talking through this. I had a wonderful time. If anything, me and Brett have enjoyed it. If no one else likes it, it's been great for us. And we have so much enjoyed talking with you and thank you for your time. Well, we thank you guys so much. I know, James, God has you in a brand new pastoral role. We celebrate that. Jason thoroughly enjoyed coming and being there with that church family. And so we celebrate the opportunity that God's given you. Brett is, I think, an adopted Hope Church guy. I don't think he realizes he's one of us, but we've kind of, he's representing us in the South. But, you know, thank you guys so much for letting me be a part. And, you know, I'm just genuine and authentic. And so I hope something I've said has been a help. And if not, the good thing is podcast comes with the fast forward feature. And people are welcome to use that. Definitely. I love it. I love it. Well, until next time, guys, to God. Not the pastor. Be the glory. Be sweet. I found my new name. I found that good grace. I found that healing. And the tears fell down my face. When I found my beginning. That has no ending. I found that second chance. I found my best friend. I found my forgiveness. I found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. I will find myrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrewrew

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