66. Signing the RFP SOF & How Should We Respond to Conflict

welcome back welcome back to the for freedom podcast grief you took forever i didn't know if i was gonna jump in or not well it was i would just wait i don't know what i was waiting for i mean come on you never told me well it's done messed up now oh my goodness well this is the for freedom podcast uh the podcast where we don't get it will you be quiet over there the podcast where we uh attempt to apply galatians 5 1 to those that have struggled and have been uh experienced spiritual abuse within the church um james we let me say this we are a podcast that is a part of the rfp network and good grief james come on the rfp network what the heck is going on i don't know john what do you think is going on i don't know it's it's gotten it's gotten crazy over the past week very much so we uh we had a statement of faith that came out and uh john did you sign that um yeah i think so okay i did too is that what we signed i thought we signed something else that was what we signed in blood for marriage or something okay uh yeah so we we signed the statement of faith and uh you know it was a it was a pretty well written statement i know that the rfp guys put a lot of time and effort into it and uh just trying to bring some common ground um i think that even craig edwards did a conference one time called common ground uh and i enjoyed listening to some things there and some things that the the guys that were there had to say and i think that we can find common ground uh when we work together we're not always going to agree on everything me and john you've heard us before we don't agree on everything even on this podcast and uh you're not going to always fully agree on everything but there is some common basic beliefs that we need to work with and i think that's sort of what the the statement of faith was saying and so uh i think the guys have done well explaining that over the last couple of episodes they've done so well james pretty much covered the episode before we even ran the intro you asked me about it john i'm sorry i'm sorry let's let's hit that intro i do not mean to be mean i do mean to be mad you obey your pastor if you ain't got the king james you ain't got hey you don't have a king james you don't have a bible but you know there's something about that local new guest that independent from middle cell when he said really can't get it but i don't believe it and my man makes you pray i don't have a great tribulation to the man of the Baptist church i still believe it'd be a cold day in hell before i get my talents from a woman i'm a preacher young preachers that do love god get pulled off in the calvinists and i'll fight it i'll fight it i'll fight you in the parking lot over and i'll get personal with you when you got dressed today you dressed deity this is the for freedom podcast a podcast that is part of the rfp network that seeks to bring freedom in christ from the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental baptist movement now here are your hosts john hollyfield and james sayford and so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from scripture the problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in scripture it is a part of the scripture but the defining principle in scripture is love and now i'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive but what i'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching i don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things bitterness is different from hurt i would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness all right guys well this is what we wanted to do today we wanted to drop this episode and quite honestly i don't really care for doing this type of thing because um in the whole grand scheme episodes when people catch up with this it's sort of like a current event thing that none of this stuff is going to matter you know six months from now or a year from now and you know they may come through this episode and say what is all of this about i mean honestly um it's just something that's going on now we don't really like to do that but i think that it's important because of some things that we've seen in people's responses um to to address uh this and quite honestly we're going to attempt to maybe give some help towards uh halfway through uh that would make this episode worthwhile to listen to even if it's like way past all of this and none of this stuff really is matters or you have no idea what's going on but let me start off by saying this um i started the podcast in june of 2020 and uh i started years yeah yeah i started this podcast and um thought it was an avenue that i could go down um and i decided to uh i don't know i had a burden that i wanted to speak into the world of those that have come out of legalism within the same realm that i came out of in the independent fundamental baptist movement and i i don't know i i thought that uh i could be i could add something to the conversation uh you know the preacher boys had just started i did an interview on there early early on and then the rfp had started i'd heard some things of them but i thought maybe i could go in a little bit more detail than what they were doing so i started it and that was the plan and i you know did some things and so if you listen to the early episodes it's just me but quite honestly james was right there along with me uh from the very first from the very start i mean getting it uploaded the very first time we spent what two or three hours at your church yeah trying to figure the dad blame thing out yeah that was that was a very interesting day i remember i remember that day very vividly because john was not disclosing everything that he had done to make the podcast and there was one image that was not allowing us to even move forward because we couldn't find that image because john uploaded the wrong size image it was a very frustrating day to say the least yeah but i remember it i remember it yeah and uh and so as time went on and james was james you know honestly was it was about the only friend um that i had that was supportive of what i was doing that let me say this the only friend i had that knew what i was doing and was supportive of it and uh was always had my back uh with it and you know uh he had shared some things about his story so i wanted him to come on and then i was like you know what you know what let's make this thing better let's have you join as a co-host and monumental day and it's been 10 times better ever since it has been 10 times better ever since and james has added so much to it not only did he help us get it going online with his technological expertise he uh the graphic that we have right now he he put together as well and uh he's done a lot of things there so me and james sort of had a plan to go in and we have changed the the purpose of the podcast over time you know we got to doing this and we found that there were people that handled theology uh better and uh so we were like well maybe that's not the direction we go and i was finishing up my certification in biblical counseling james just started his and we we had the thought maybe we could bring biblical counseling to the conversation of those that have left spiritually abusive churches so that's sort of the the goal that we're working at right now but i think it was it was february of 2021 that uh jc reached out to me and said hey has anybody talked to you anybody he was talking about nathan or brian have they reached out to you about joining the rfp network and i was like no he said oh i thought they had okay never mind hey would you like to join the rfp network and i was like okay and i said let me uh let me let me shoot james a message and so i asked james and james was like oh yeah that sounds cool so then um nathan got in touch with me and he said uh let's go out to eat so we went and ate at champi's in chattanooga and uh you know what nathan said i asked him i was like you know what does this involve and he said basically we want you guys to do what you're doing and uh and do that he said we just want to sort of um help each other and join us he said you know and that was just sort of the thing we we have listened to what you're doing and we we like what you're saying and uh you know we want you to come join us and we want to provide this is what he said we want to provide those that are listening with content and material that can help them and their walk with christ as much as we can so he said whereas we do one podcast a week they can have you know you guys in that week and they can have some of the others that can help them and strengthen their walk with god he said you guys are taking it down this avenue and we're doing this and we have some others that are taking it down this avenue and that's what we wanted to do and i said okay that was the invitation yeah we were invited to the podcast though i think the the biggest thing that even me and you both had shared was you asked him the question as far as the celebrity pastor and the celebrity share that as well i know we've shared before in the past but share again your thought there john well i told him i said my main my only hang up is the moment this becomes a celebrity pastor culture you know in a celebrity culture we're out i said i don't i have no i have no toleration for that i don't like it i don't i won't be about it and he told me he said i'm with you and he said one of the ways that we think we can combat that is what we talked what he called meetups and i was like what the heck is a meetup made no sense to me he tried to explain it to me and i was like okay well maybe and dude when we went to the meetup in missouri yeah he was right i mean it was not a celebrity culture i mean really the three guys weren't the main part of the thing i mean it was the people it was the stories of everybody that was the main attraction of everything i mean they really didn't do a whole lot they orchestrated a a question and answer part of it and they interviewed people but other than that they really didn't do anything in front of everybody you know we did our our episode in front of everybody the rfwp did their episode in front of it but they weren't they just it was not a celebrity culture and it was so refreshing so we we were in you know i i i knew that i had a camaraderie with nathan already and we had some very um a lot of things in common and a lot of things theologically in common and um had many conversations about that and so uh so here we come to this week with this statement of faith and so james has already given some explanation about the statement of faith was announced on their episode and then they sent a message to all of us saying here's the statement of faith and read it and sign it and they told us you have i think when did we get it james was it monday last week monday night so we got it on a monday night and they said you have till friday to sign it yeah well and it was it was even given as monday is hey look over this let us know if there's any revisions spelling errors things that may need to be addressed right and then we we commented through that i didn't comment john i don't know if you did or not uh but i didn't but i had a conversation with nathan about one of the issues that you had with and brought it up with him and he had a he gave a good explanation about you know your concern on on part of the statement of faith and and there were some some we all had errors yeah we all had feedback in it and and and nathan i think the next day tuesday put out a revised version of the statement of faith that fixed some of those sort of redundancies and errors said this is it you know sign it and quite honestly the statement of faith is on their website they have an entire episode where they read through the thing there it is you have it and james and i read through it and i asked james i said do you have any problem with it and you said no nothing nothing nothing that's going to cause me to separate and apostatize from the guys you know yeah i didn't have any problem with it i mean it did yeah i would it would i and this is something i want to say i think and i think we're about to say the same thing i think we both wanted it maybe even be a little stronger on some areas it is exactly what i was going to say if i was doing this if i was doing this it would be a whole lot more narrow yeah yeah a whole lot more narrow these guys are a whole lot more open-armed than me and you would be yeah i mean quite honestly and so there i didn't have a problem with anything that was in there and so we both signed it and we're in the rfp and everybody else has been hearing everything that's been going on now james and i uh i say the jc brian and nathan have released uh an rfp extra where they explain all this stuff with this conflict that's happened online and um james and i have no desire to give commentary on the conflict or to talk about why one side is better than the other or anything like that that's not what the purpose of this is um i think um i think the church split guys are going to release an episode giving their side of the story to you know okay what we wanted to do is this there are some in the community and james has shared some of these things with me because i'm i've gotten off social media i may say something about that at the end uh there are some in the community that were hurt by the fact that this conflict happened so publicly and some of the information that just caused confusion and they didn't know how to they didn't know what to think about it and some of them their specific individual stories happened with conflict like this and so to see what was going on really brought up a lot of bad emotions and bad feelings of what had happened in their past and so it it bothered james and i want to talk to you that's what we want to talk about we want to talk about this and can i say this i just want to say you know we're sorry that this happened and that it may be that hurt was relived because of this situation um but maybe if you if you listen and stick with us we can offer something to you from god's word that might uh bring some comfort and some understanding when it comes to the area of conflict yeah well and even to even to say that john we live and we're going to address this here in just a minute we live in a fallen broken world we live in a world that's full of sin and i love how the the growing grace podcast said to i was listening to episode today and one of them had said my mind can't imagine living in a sin-free environment because all i've ever known as sin and so dealing with sin dealing with broken people conflict is going to happen inevitably no matter what because we're sinful because we're prideful because we're you feel in the blank of the sin and so conflict happens and so because conflict happens we need to address how can we respond to conflict how can we from a biblical worldview from using scripture take conflict and approach it in the right way and we're going to use some information from ken sandy's peacemaker book and we'll give some of his his thoughts at the end uh but but john why i know i sort of went into a little bit but why does conflict even happen uh you have an answer written down here why does that why does that happen and this is something that i think will okay is it safe to say that when when conflict when you're in the middle conflict things seem complicated i mean even looking at the situation that's happened to other social media the past couple of days there's so much confusion and things seem so complicated and you feel like you're trying to untangle uh uh you know messed up ball of yarn that just seems untanglable if that's a word we'll make it a word john yeah and i think that the best way to help you navigate being in a conflict or observing some conflict that just makes you uncomfortable um is to simplify things let's let's try to make it a lot more simpler when we think about why the conflict is happening quite simply it is happening because we are all sinners and let me explain what i'm talking about there within the rfp community you have sinners within the rfp network you have sinners in fact i don't think we're gonna get tossed out for saying this but brian edwards jc groves and nathan cravat are all sinners yeah and dare i say brian bode and will hess are sinners but in case anybody try to think that we're sitting ourselves on a pedestal james safert and john hollyfield are sinners amen and james very much so what happens when you take a group of sinners and you put them in a room together they make a bunch of mistakes yes conflict is going to happen can i say this about this guys this is probably not the last conflict that's going to arise within the rfp network because we have sinners among us and we are sinners and i dare say for everyone listening to you to to us right now whoever listens to this podcast i want to ask you this do you have a conflict free life i mean really do you because i think the answer to that is probably no we all experience conflict we all have conflict in our lives because of sin can i tell you something else too let's go to the bible probably some a person that many people have expressed as being one of the greatest christians ever the apostle paul the apostle paul experienced conflict with other good brothers in christ i mean there's a story in the book of acts where they were getting ready to go on a missionary journey and paul's number one buddy his james safert or maybe his john hollyfield you know you know james is paul i'll be barnabas uh uh his his his his best buddy barnabas wanted to bring along who many uh commentators believe was probably his nephew a guy by the name of john mark along on the missionary journey and paul said no because they had gone on a missionary journey with john mark before and john mark got homesick and he went home and abandoned them and paul couldn't let that go and so it says that the contention was so strong that they parted ways they divided they had can we say this a church split oh my they parted ways and so what happened was is barnabas ended up going with john mark and paul grabbed a new guy named silas well john interject do you you think there was some maybe contention and conflict between paul and barnabas yeah the text actually says that yeah well it says that that there was contention the contention was so sharp yeah and the great thing about even that and i'm sure you're going to get to it is we see even later in scripture where there's reconciliation well we see indications that lead us to believe that there was reconciliation because when paul's in prison and he writes to timothy he tells them to bring him things that he needs and one of the things he tells them to bring is john mark for he is profitable for my ministry in other words his opinion of john mark changed probably because of the testimony of barnabas yeah and and quite honestly what we see there is we see that conflict is gonna happen all right so i guess what we want to sort of cover now is how can we respond to conflict yeah and as we think through that everything we do as a christian everything that we do as a person as a believer should try to bring honor and glory to god i think one of the things that jim newheiser said to my counseling is ask yourself is what you're doing right now glorifying god or honoring god if it's not then you probably need to change some things because as a christian as a believer everything in our life should be to honor god when we look at the life of jesus he says i must be about my father's business i must be honoring god i have to do these things in order to honor god and so how can we honor god we're going to lay out four basic principles for you as we go through this the first is this for sake of time we probably need to rush this a little bit john we're taking our time um is the first is we can trust god proverbs 3 simply lays out trust in the lord with all your heart and lean out onto your own understanding do not rely on yourself we talked just a minute ago how we're sinners if we rely on self we're going to make mistakes if we rely on glorifying self we're going to make mistakes we've got to trust in the lord acknowledge him and he will direct our paths do not be wise in your own eyes fear the lord and depart from evil i like that those those words in the first part of verse seven do not be wise in your own eyes because then you find yourself in the middle of a conflict i want you to ask yourself that question self-reflect am i being wise in my own eyes uh the next thing is you can trust god you can obey god listen we have we have his word to lay out what it is that he expresses for us to do and we can still do that in the middle of conflict number three you can imitate god ephesians 5 1 and 2 therefore be imitators of god as beloved children walk in strife no walk in love as christ loved us and gave himself for us as a fragrant offering and a sacrifice to god yeah the fourth thing is we can acknowledge god uh philippians 2 13 for god is the one working in you both to will and to do his good pleasure god is there he's working in us uh one of the things in gently and lowly that i just read this morning god if he was physically here could give us a hug but his spirit gives us a hug that's so much greater than a physical hug because his spirit lives within us and he's working in us and we acknowledge that the spirit of god is working in us we're able to use the spirit to be able to work to do his good will through everything that we do even in a conflict the spirit of the lord is able to work things through his good and for his glory now james this as we transition to sort of where we want to finish up at um does god expect or the bible expect us to that every conflict and everything is going to end in peace no no but we have instruction from romans 12 18 that says if it is possible as much as it depends on you live peaceably with all men what is that what is that saying to us number one we get this this idea from it that there are going to be times and situations where even if you were striving for peace it still is probably not going to happen it may not happen but the command is is that how you where you find yourself in the conflict you let it be said that as much as in you you try to seek peace you try to be for peace all right jesus in the high priestly prayer in john 17 praying to god before he was arrested said i do not pray for these alone but also for those who will believe in me through their word he's talking about us there that they may be they may all be one as you father are in me and i in you may they also be one in us that the world may believe that you have sent me i've given them the glory which you gave me that they may be one even as we are one i in them and you and me and that they may be perfect in unity and that the world may know that you have sent me and i've loved them as you have loved me you know there's a reason why he wants us as believers even though he knows and we know we're going to have conflict that we strive for peace and he also says the same thing to the disciples in john 13 john james can you read john 13 yeah john 13 and i i use this statement almost weekly with our teenagers and with our young adults as i teach them a new commandment i give unto you that you love one another even as i have loved you that you also love one another and this is the key statement and i think it's so true in our life if we can grab a hold of this and run with it i believe that we will change the world by this all men will know that you are my disciple if you have love one for another not contention not hatred not bitterness not resentment not anger but love one for another it's hard to have love for one another in a fallen broken world as we started this talk out with we live in that fallen broken world and it's going to be hard to live peaceably with all men but jesus again says here if you do that if you can love one another that's how people are going to know that you're one of my disciples because you can love one another that you can bear sitting in a room with someone else that you have a disagreement with and still show love toward them it's a tough thing it's been tough for me it's been tough for some things in my life right now but god is still good he's still on the throne and we are able to show love one toward another and james before we finish that was that was that was a great word on that about the disciples and we are disciples as well but before we finish let's um i want to talk directly to those that are listening for those that find themselves in the conflict and we want to ask you these questions ken sandy writes these questions in his book the peacemaker and i just found them oh so good for myself and my soul and convicting at the same time and i think these are questions that we want to want you to ask yourself as you find yourself either in conflict or observing a conflict and so james just go this tag team these one at a time i'll start with the first one and you go to the next one all right the first question we want you to ask yourself as it pertains to the conflict you find yourself in have you made peace with god by accepting him as your personal lord and savior and king you know john this is another good point when we think of that i know most of our listeners probably profess to know jesus but you're not only going to have conflict with people who are christians you at times are going to have conflict with people who are unbelievers and it may be an opportunity that lord has allowed that conflict to happen for you to be able to share the gospel with them for you to be able to make reconciliation and them ask that question why are you doing this man we're having we're in the middle of a fight and you're worried about reconciling with me and making things right and they're going to begin to provoke the questions into us and say what is different about you and we're going to be able at that moment to share the lord jesus christ with them through a conflict through a time that we're struggled with and be able to share the lord with them so number two as we go forward are you at peace with other people if not if there is someone that you're not at peace with from whom are you estranged from and then why are you estranged from them begin to ask yourself okay who do i have conflict with who do i have a quarrel with who do i have someone that is a problem with and then begin to ask the question why is it that i am having these problems why is it that i am struggling with this and begin to get to the root of it to be able to solve it next one is are you expecting the kind of internal peace experience experiencing sorry are you experiencing the the kind of internal peace that you desire and if not why yeah number four has the peace and unity of the christian community been disrupted by your dispute and then the question you need to ask is how how has it been disrupted by your actions or the actions of you and someone else read that again james number four read number four again how has the peace and unity of a christian or the christian community that you're in been disrupted by your dispute number five what effect might this conflict have on the reputation of christ is it what is more important is your reputation more important than the reputation of christ number six number six is there someone who might have something against you now we're thinking even not only about ourself but a bit about other people around us what have you done to be reconciled do you believe that you are free to worship god or do you need to make another effort to restore unity with that person read that again do you believe that you are free to worship god the bible says that we should never even go into a remembrance time of communion where we've got all with a brother there was recently in my life where something that i had said and done hurt someone and i didn't even realize it and one of our deacons came to me and told me that and so i had to make reconciliation and i told him i said i need to do this because i can't observe communion knowing that i didn't even realize that i'd heard him until this person had told me and so now i am having to make reconciliation so that i can even observe communion with brothers and sisters in christ and so do you believe that you're free to worship god if you believe you're free to worship god with someone has all against you or you have all against them that's between you and lord but how can we make another effort to maybe restore unity why and how might satan be aggravating this dispute maybe a question that you probably couldn't specifically answer but maybe something you need to think about yeah have you been striving earnestly to resolve this dispute or giving only partial effort to make peace are you doing everything you can possibly is what it's saying here to live peaceably with all men are you doing everything you can to resolve this dispute yeah next one is have you remembered the forgiveness that you have in christ and drawn on his grace to resolve this dispute have you been working in your own wisdom and strength who will you depend on from to depend on from this point on and then james the last one the last one we're going to read a passage of scripture here says in ephesians chapter 4 verses 29 through 32 let no corrupt talk or communication come out of your mouth but only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion that it might give grace to those who hear and do not grieve the holy spirit by whom we are sealed into the day of redemption let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put from you along with malice be kind one to another tenderhearted forgiving one another as god in christ has forgiven you and so our thought here is are you thinking speaking or even acting in a way that might grieve the holy spirit are our actions grieving how the holy spirit interacts with our family with our friends with our community my wife tells me all the time she says james stop provoking your kids to wrath as husbands you can't do that as as fathers you can't do that but my nature i do that at times and my wife is there to correct me my wife sees that she helps me out is the holy spirit correcting you when you begin to grieve the community of god it or our acting our thinking our speaking are we so in tune with the holy spirit that we feel that conviction that we know i mean i just did something wrong that's good guys listen in the middle of all this conflict that was going on in the network and james and i you know the guys sort of laid out a lot of the details of everything and the information behind the scenes information about what was going on in the rfp extra episode but can i tell you something just honestly my emotions got stirred up a little bit and uh there was this one question that kept sort of focusing me and centering me from doing something or saying something that was probably end up regretting or starting more stirring more conflict and that was this how can i glorify god in this situation how can i glorify god in this situation and i'm gonna i'm gonna say this and we're we're we're finished but as everything has has done what is done james and i sit right here knowing what we know and we are still in the rfp network and we are still in good relationship good friendship and still support the guys of the recovering fundamentalist podcast yeah well and and right right when you say that john a lot of people think that the church split is the only one that is done with the network there's a couple other podcasts that have decided we're just gonna go do a different thing we still friends with all of them we still are in good community relationship we've been talking to will we've been talking to these other ones uh that we had a relationship with and if if one of them left and we didn't really talk with it's a different story but we are still in agreement for christ's sake through all of this and uh let me also say this thing and maybe john you maybe won't have one other thing to say as we get done but no one asked us to do this episode no no no one said i'm glad you thought that i never would have thought about that but yeah this was totally our idea yeah no one said hey you guys go on there let's rally behind the troops let's let's let's circle the bandwagons no we we thought this is literally when i sent john a couple of messages i sent i screenshotted one uh that a comment was made something about i left the independent fundamental baptist movement because this is conflict happened and this is what happened and i feel like i'm back in it again and i said john we probably need to talk about this yep and so we're addressing this not necessarily because people got their butt hurts in one way or another okay but we're addressing this is how can we take this situation and honor god through it and so that's sort of our talk and and john i think you've stirred in me some strong language so let me give some language i wasn't going to but you got it stirred in me can i say this as far as this conflict with the rfp network is concerned we don't give a flying flip about what the church split or the rfp are doing about it our concern is those within the community that had feelings stirred up and were hurt by witnessing what was going on and a lot of confusion that's where our concern was and that's what we wanted to address yeah and i think that's what we try to do today in a nice biblical way giving some hope giving some help giving some ways that people can take some tangible scripture and maybe dwell on a verse maybe take romans 12 18 and just meditate on it for the next couple of days romans 12 18 is a verse man if at all possible yeah it may be a different maybe it may be ephesians maybe you just read through the book of ephesians for the next couple of days and we're just trying to give you some some ways that when conflict happens you have tools in your tool belt to be able to go at that conflict in the best possible way well enough with this mess next time uh next thursday we're excited to drop uh a web episode that's been long in the making uh and it is raw and uncut it is it is mine and james wives joining us and we're going to talk about the subject of leaving legalism together how or maybe maybe uh explain it explaining it this way you know whenever you're a couple and you're making an exit and maybe the two of you aren't on the same page or how do you grow together through that that experience in that process so i love the conversation we had we had a we had a blast doing it and um i think you'll enjoy listening to it there's a lot of laughter yeah very much so well i think that's all we're going to do today uh james thank you guys for listening to the for freedom podcast and and all the you know the the support you've given us up through these 66 episodes and uh we still got some things down the pipe plan to come so we're uh for the foreseeable future we're not going anywhere and we're going to continue to try to help you point you to the bible and to the scripture and god's word for the struggles that you're going through so until next time to god not the pastor be the glory thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast to find more content like this please visit rfp network.org to find more podcasts like this one resources and meetups to encourage you on your 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