65. Loving Messy People: An Interview with Scott Mehl

I do not mean to be mean, I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. But you know, there's something about that local new guest, that independent from Minnesota, he said, we're in a king gang, I have a week of, you're like, man, he's a pre-tribulation, I'm a Baptist church. I still believe, if you have gold a day in hell before I get my talents from a woman, I'm a preacher. The young preachers that do love God get pulled off in the Calvinist, and I'll fight it, I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over it, I'll get personal with it. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP Network. That seeks to bring freedom in Christ. From the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of the Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome back everybody to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host today, John Holyfield. Big James is not with us today. We are recording this at a time that he couldn't make it. He's coaching football actually at this time right now. But this is the podcast where we try to bring the message of Galatians 5.1 to those that's been affected by spiritual abuse. And so I am excited about today's episode. I know it's been a little bit, not our normal schedule of having episodes regularly dropping. But today we have Scott Mell on the podcast. And let me just say a bit about Scott Mell. Scott is a pastor in California, West L.A. at Cornerstone Church. He does work with teaching and preaching at the church and also biblical counseling. And Scott recently wrote a book called Loving Messy People. And that's going to be sort of what we talk about a little bit today. But Scott, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming on. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, John. It's a privilege. Yes, sir. Sure. I gave just sort of a rundown a little bit. But could you tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit more personal, your ministry, even your family? You've got four kids and your wife. If you could just tell us a little bit about you. Yeah, yeah. So I've been pastoring here in Los Angeles, on the west side of Los Angeles, for 16 years now. I was first a church plant and then merged together with a 100-year-old Baptist church, which that's kind of its own story. But the Lord is super gracious and love the church. It's just such a privilege to get to be a part of the church here in L.A. I've been married for almost 19 years now, and we have four kids. They're – what are they now? Almost 16, 14, 11, and almost 10. So we got our hands full, but love it. Love it. As I was mentioning to you earlier, I'm actually enjoying the teenage years more than we – more than maybe I anticipated. But, I mean, at this point, they're all, like, self-sufficient. It's a beautiful thing. You don't have to buckle any in car seats. Man, I'm months away from one of them being able to drive themselves. After driving all over this city, I am, like, so ready. He's like, yeah, should I get my license? I'm like, no, no, no, you don't have a choice, son. But, yeah, so my emphasis in ministry is overseeing and facilitating leadership development and overseeing our staff. And pastors here and biblical counseling as well. It's kind of been my passion in heart. Really, it was actually church planting that got me into biblical counseling. And I think so I love – because I was like, wait, seminary taught me how to preach, and it taught me how to study the word. But when it came to the complexity of people, I felt kind of ill-equipped. But – and in biblical counseling, I just found the riches of Scripture applied to the complexities of people's lives in a way that was really – it was just really, really powerful. And so it's – I love training people for counseling, but even more – so I love training people just in the church to care for, counsel, minister to one another. And it's kind of where this has all come out of. It's where it's – what the book was born out of as well. Yeah. So are you a – you're a member, a certified member, but are you a fellow? I am. I'm a fellow with the Association for Certified Biblical Counselors. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. And so that means you also work with Supervision Stage as well. I do. I do. Yeah, yeah. And actually, for me – I mean, people may not be familiar with the ACBC certification process, but there's like a learning process, and then there's like, you know, exams and stuff like that. But then at the end is supervised counseling where you get feedback. Somebody actually gives you feedback for the personal and interpersonal ministry you're doing. And for me, that was the best part of the entire process. Like it was like the gold. Like being able to get individual feedback on, you know, the passages, what I was saying, what I was doing. I mean, it's like getting feedback on any public preaching or teaching or anything like that. It was so, so formative for me. And so now I get to provide that kind of supervision to others that are going through the certification process. And it's a huge – yeah, huge privilege. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, let's jump in and talk about this. This sort of goes along with what we were just talking about, the counseling thing. You wrote the book, Loving Messy People. It came out two years ago? Yep. Yeah, two years ago. I guess this is the question whenever you're talking to anybody about a work that they produce. Why? Why the concept? And then maybe explain a little bit of what the title even means, Loving Messy People. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this was really born out of a desire to equip and train the people in our church, in our local church, to care for and minister to one another. Particularly our small group leaders, recognizing that our small group leaders in a lot of ways – like the vast majority of the ministry, at least in our local church, that's where it happens. It happens in small groups. It doesn't happen in a pastor's office. It happens in living rooms. It happens in coffee shops. It happens in parks, right? It happens just kind of all over the place as people care for and minister to one another in their lives. And we want to equip the church more and more for that one another ministry that the New Testament repeatedly calls all of us as Christians to. I think the problem that we all face, though, is that as soon as we enter into another person's life, even carrying the word of God and equipped with the word of God, we realize that usually the situations in their life are pretty messy. The reality is life isn't simple. The reality is the problems people face aren't simple or neat or ordered. There's not like – somebody says, oh, I struggle with this, and you turn to the chapter and verse, you quote them a verse, and then everything's done. It doesn't work like that, right? We are complicated people, and our problems are complicated. They're oftentimes really multifaceted. And so the word that I think a lot of people use to describe that complication in our world is just messy. People are messy. Our problems are messy. And the reality is that as we are called to care for one another, what we're called to is to step into that mess, to step into the reality of it. And I think that it's the messiness of that that oftentimes scares people off from caring for one another. They oftentimes feel like, oh, wait, no, it's too complicated. Like, I can't – I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. I don't know where to start. But I think that most Christians, the vast majority of Christians, are far more equipped to be used by God in the messes, in the lives of the people around them than they even realize. And so a part of this was both written – a part of Loving Messy People was written in order to help them recognize that calling, help them recognize how equipped they already were with the gospel, with the biblical truth that they know to help and care for and walk with people. And then also just to give them kind of a practical framework for what that looks like. How do we care for one another? And so that's kind of where the structure of the book came from. And so I don't know if you want me to go into – how detailed do you want me to go into that? Well, no, that sounds great. So it's like – I think this is something that a lot of people may be coming out of a legalistic or spiritual abusive sort of church culture and coming into something like that. I mean, really finding a way of like how discipleship works, how discipleship looks, how to even like go about it. I mean, really, I can remember reading a Nine Marks book on discipleship like eight or nine years ago and thinking, I love this. This is it right here. How do I do this? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And it's like you see – you can see it, you know, sometimes in works where it's like, okay, that's what this church should be. Yes. Yes, that makes sense. That clicks. How do we do it? Yeah. So, I mean, that's where we tried to write Loving Messy People in a way that gives you some things to hang your hat on. See, the problem is, though, when we ask how do we do it, what we all really want is a script. We want like, okay, just tell me the verses. Tell me about it. Like, let me read the script. But life doesn't work like that. It's too messy for that. And actually, I think ministry isn't – there's no script. There's no like, you know, set of ten questions you always ask and you do it. But there are these guiding principles that give us a vision for what that looks like. And really, those principles flow out of the gospel, out of the gospel grace, out of what Christ has done for us and how that is reflected into the lives of those around us. And so, you know, I always start with – we say, how do we do that? How do we care for one another? It starts with love. And we start by loving the people God's placed in our lives and he's called us to minister to. And I think sometimes people hear that and they're like, oh, well, of course. Like, of course it's love. Like, we all know that. Like, love – it goes without saying. But like, what do we really do? But I think the problem is that too often it does go without saying. And we don't recognize that the call to genuinely love one another encompasses all that we are called to do. And so if we don't start there, we end up kind of devolving into some form of legalism, right? If we don't start there, we end up devolving into just a list of rules or a list of steps or a script that we're to follow. But what God calls us to is to remember how loved, how beloved we are from him, to rest in that love, to recognize that we're not – we can't on our own change anybody, but are simply called to reflect the love that he has shown to us, to those around us. And so as that love pours out of us, it manifests in a number of different ways. And the four kind of categories I use in the book are love manifests in knowing, in serving, in speaking, and in what I call gospeling. And the love begins with knowing because we can't know how to minister to somebody unless we first take time to listen to them, to ask questions, to not just view somebody as a project or a problem to solve, but as a person whose struggles are multifaceted and complex. And so we have to listen to truly understand them, to get to know them, right? God loves us in uniquely personal and deeply personal ways. And if we're going to manifest that love to others, we have to know the person. So it starts with a lot of listening, a lot of asking questions, a lot of seeking to know the person. And then from there, as we know the person and ask questions, we consider... The linchpin to me of the whole process of caring for and ministering to people is really, as a result of that knowing, we then consider what's most needed at a particular moment. And this is where we don't want to have to use wisdom. Again, we just want the right answer. I think that's the legalist in all of our hearts, right? That just says, just give me the right answer and just tell me what to do. But God says, no, I want you to love them. I want you to listen. And then I want you to use wisdom. I want you to seek me for wisdom. James 1 gives us an incredible promise that if anyone lacks wisdom, we should ask God and he gives it. There's a proverb about how a blessing, a man who rises early in the morning in order to bless his neighbor, will be counted as a cursing. Well, when is a blessing counted as a cursing? Well, a blessing is counted as a cursing when it's delivered at 2 a.m., right? You could tell me... Right, I mean, John, you could tell me how much you enjoy my book. And on this podcast, I feel really blessed by that. I'm super encouraged by that. I'm super thankful for that. But if you showed up outside of my bedroom window at 2 a.m. to make that same announcement, those same words that right here blessed me would be counted as a cursing. Right? Yeah, I think I've found that in marriage. Like whenever I have a thought dawns at me at 9.30 and I say, oh, honey, you got to know this. She's like, what? What? Not now. Yeah. Don't even know it now. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But I think it shows us that the right truth at the wrong time is the wrong truth. It doesn't make it untrue. It's still true, but that doesn't mean it's actually what needs to be said. See, Scott, that goes against our fundamentalist mindset of thinking. It does. It does. Because I think that we – the problem is I think we have too low of a bar. When Ephesians calls us to speak the truth in love. Right. Right? We stop before the in love part and we're like, hey, as long as I think of something true and I say it, then I did what I should do because I spoke truth. But we're not simply called to speak truth. We're called to speak truth in love. David Powelson called Counselor, Interpersonal Ministry, he called it wise love in action. And it's that wisdom part. It's the wise love put into practice in our lives with one another. It requires us to say, okay, no, no. Just having something true to say isn't a high enough bar for it to actually come out. I need to have something true to say and then I need to consider, but of the things I could say, of all the true – because there's a lot of true things I could say. The Bible is filled with true things I could say. The Bible is also filled with all sorts of instructions about things I could do. But of all the things I could say and of all the things I could do, wisdom asks, what's most needed now? What's most needed in this moment? So that what I say or what I do won't be counted as a cursing because it's not at the right time, but can actually be received as the love it's intended to be. And so I think that love starts with knowing and considering what's most needed. And then it manifests itself in serving, right? And it does manifest itself in practical areas. I think sometimes when we think about interpersonal ministry, we usually just think about talking, right? Things I can say. But of the one another commands in the New Testament, at least as many of them are acts of service, not just words spoken. And so we care for one another by outdoing one another and showing honor, by bearing one another's burdens, by asking ourselves, okay, how – In light of love, knowing your struggle, how can I serve you? How can I pray for you? How can I share what God's given to me with you? How can I bear your burdens? How can I forgive you if you wronged me? How can I serve you practically? And then – but our love goes beyond just service into words. We speak truth as well, right? We speak – but I think – I would actually be curious. I wish we were kind of in like a classroom setting here. I would love to ask all of your listeners what comes to mind when they think speaking the truth in love. Like if you're going to speak the truth to somebody, what form does that take? Because I'm afraid that what hits most of our minds almost exclusively is correction, right? If I'm going to speak the truth, if I'm going to speak the truth in love, that means that's basically a euphemism for correcting you. It's basically code for telling you something you've done wrong. Now, a part of truth is correcting one another, but a part of truth is also affirming one another. A part of truth is recognizing where God's working in someone's life and saying, look, that's God working. I think of the encouragements that Paul gives the Thessalonians where he tells them, you know, just as you are doing, just as you're showing brotherly love to one another, I just want to encourage you to do so more and more. He wasn't correcting them. He wasn't instructing them to do anything different. He was just telling them what you're doing. I want you to continue to do that. And so we speak truth by correcting. We speak truth by affirming. We speak truth by just giving people hope, reminding them of gospel hope. But I think most fundamentally and most importantly as Christians is the discipline of giving one another gospel hope and reminding one another of the gospel. Far too often we stop short of this where we say, look, I gave you some, maybe even affirmation. I gave you some correction from, and I used scripture. So I fulfilled my role. I'm doing biblical counseling. I use the Bible and it is, but, but at its core, what we are seeking to do in speaking the truth to one another in love is helping one another grow into the image of Christ. That's what Ephesians 4 talks about, right? It talks about growing together. We speak the truth in love so that we mature together, growing up into full maturity, into the image of Christ. And if we want to help one another become more like Christ, we don't do that by simply telling people what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong. We don't do it by simply giving them the rules. We don't simply do it by giving them a script. We're not saved by works and we can't be transformed by works, right? This is great Galatians, like first Galatians, who's bewitched you, right? Having begun in the spirit, are you now going to be perfected by the flesh, right? Like it doesn't work like that. That's not how God works. Just as we are saved by grace through faith, we are also transformed by grace through faith. And so what people who are struggling with anything, with suffering, with sin, what people need most is to be reminded of the gospel. If they're suffering and hurting, they need to be reminded of the gospel, the gospel truth that Christ came to redeem their suffering, that he promises to redeem their suffering, that he gives them a hope beyond their suffering and eternity. And hope for their sin. And when someone, when we recognize that someone's fallen into sin, when they have fallen into sin, we meet them not with, first with rules and instructions, although the instructions will come, but we meet them with reminders of the magnitude of the grace of God. Yeah. Because when we realize that we have fallen, we realize we have what we have done wrong, God meets us there and reminds us that his grace, even when our sin is deeper and worse than we ever thought possible, God meets us in those moments and tells us that his grace is also greater than we ever imagined. That Romans 8, that there's no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. Yeah. Right? And every one of us as Christians desperately needs those reminders. And the reason that is, is because as we are reminded of gospel truth, that inspires our worship of God and obedience and trust flow naturally from that. They don't have to be contrived. They don't have to be controlled because they flow naturally. And they, they lead us to ask the question, Lord, I, I love you so much. Your grace is so amazing. How do you, how can I follow you? What do you want for my life? And that's when the instructions come in because it gives us practical steps that say, as you desire to please God, here's what that looks like. As your life is lived out as a living sacrifice, holy, holy and acceptable to God, as it says in Romans 12. Yeah. And that's good. I like that you made the point there. And I had questions, but this is 10 times better. This is a 10 times better direction of what we're going. But I, you said that part about, it leads us to worship and obedience. I was actually with someone last week and just struggling, struggling because of, because of this past with this must, this legalistic mindset for years and years grown up in this. And so just struggling with sort of counseling that we've been doing this far of just condemning and the self-condemning of just not getting it each week. And so I was, I was trying to get the gospel applied to it, going from Romans 7, 14 to Romans 8 and saying, there's therefore now no condemnation and explaining that. And the response was, how is that not just cheap grace then? And I'm like, it's not. And what you said right there, I thought was such a great thing because yes, God gives us that, but that, that is gifted to us. So then we responded, worship and obedience going forward. That, that's, that's excellent. The one thing you said also that I thought was maybe something that we could come back to was I think a lot of times when people approach ministry with helping someone, what I've seen it done in the past is that you're approaching this person because they're a problem. Like they, they just come in to the church, they've gotten saved and now we've got to get them all fixed up. Yeah. Right. And approaching it, but that, that, that it, wouldn't you say that it's also part of this, this idea of loving messy people and recognizing that we're, we're messy too. Exactly. And what we could, because what we are is we are messy people called to love and care for messy people. You know, I, one of the ways I think about it is I, I think that's too, all too often we approach people as if we in God. God are like on one side of the equation and the person we're ministering to is on the other. Right. And so we, and so like, we, like we stand, like we're with God and we're like, Hey, God and I've been talking and we agree. You've got a problem. Right. Right. Right. And God and I need to have a conversation with you. And here's the things you're doing wrong. And here's the, but that's not the picture that's painted anywhere in scripture. Right. God alone is holy and we are all broken jars of clay. And so the reality is actually we, we are standing with our brother or sister as a fellow messy person who has our own problems and our own struggles. As a co-labor, even if they're struggling particularly bad right now, we're standing with them and coming before God, the Holy One. And inviting them to, with us, be in awe again of the magnitude of his holiness and the magnitude of his grace. Like, isn't God amazing that he has grace upon sufferers and sinners like us? And I think when we do that, come alongside people that way, it, it changes our posture. It changes the way we talk about it. Yes. It changes the content even of, of, of what we say, because, um, we don't stand self-righteously with God. We stand with them as brothers and sisters in Christ, both who are only righteous because of what Jesus has done, not because of what we've done. Um, and seeking to, to, to, to revel in and be continually be transformed by his grace. That's great. Well, I think I'm going to skip over. I was going to ask about, I think we've covered enough about, uh, you know, I was going to ask about the, the contradiction between legalism and doing this. I thought, I think we, we got some good stuff in there. Do you think you could maybe give an example of maybe how this plays out? Um, um, you know, I, I, I listened to one of your, uh, a session that you had done about depression and you had a couple of opening things that I thought was great. So I, I, I put in the notes, this is some inside baseball for everybody. I put in the notes, maybe specifically depression because your, your lesson that I'd listened to, I can't remember the title of it now, even, even off the top of my head, but it was just so, so good. I don't know if you're a little bit with talking about that, but could you sort of see how that, that, as we work, let's say we have an example, uh, a situation, somebody saying, all right, well, I'm, I'm ministering to somebody right now. So, so how would this work? I know we would say, well, we'll go get the book and read it, but what would be something that we could give it? So, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think, so, so, so somebody comes to, if somebody were to come to me and say, you know, I, um, I'm just really struggling with depression. Right. Um, I think there's a temptation to say, oh, oh man, like that's a big deal. And cause it is a big deal. Right. And there's a temptation to be overwhelmed by it and say, oh, I, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. Like I see the problem is John, if, if somebody came to me today, if somebody came to me right after this podcast and say, yeah, I'm struggling with depression. Problem is I wouldn't know what to say. Like with all of my training, with, with all, like I wrote this digging book on it. Like I, I, I don't know what to say. And the reason I don't know what to say is because I haven't listened long enough. Oh, that's good. Asked enough questions to actually know what to say. Yeah. And so if somebody came to me and said, I, I struggle with depression. I mean, I think it starts by simply asking, man, I, like I am first of all, giving hope and, and, and conveying compassion. I am so sorry about that. Like, I just can't even imagine how hard that is. And then just like asking questions so you can understand what, what's going on. I think it starts by saying what, first of all, like, what do you, the word depression is a huge umbrella term. Yeah. What, what do you mean by that? Right. What, what do you, what do you fill that word with? Like, what's that experience like for you? Like, can you, can you describe it? Can you, um, when, when does it happen? You know, you know, is it ongoing and continual or does it go up and down? Is it like coming and going, you know, and just seeking to, to learn and, and to listen. And as you do, um, as you listen, as you ask questions, um, I think about thinking, even just thinking, you can start by just thinking in the categories of suffering and sin. Right. Okay. Starting with suffering, like what, in what ways is this person suffering? Right. How has their situation or their circumstance or their job or, or their family or, or their, something going on in their physical body? Like how is that contributing to this experience and, and causing, or maybe contributing to brain fog or, or making things tired or, or, you know, how, how are they suffering? And how then does scripture speak about suffering? What hope does scripture give us regarding suffering? I think, I think of Romans five, we've been talking about Romans. So let's just stick in Romans, right? Like you think about Romans five and, and the, the promise that suffering produces, um, endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. Like this, this is a message of gospel hope. It comes, flows right out of an explanation of what the gospel is. And he says, in light of the gospel, God redeems, he promises to redeem our suffering. Um, so how can we offer hope in the midst of that? But then also in what ways is that maybe selfishness or self-focus, um, contributing as well? And how can we bring the grace of God to bear reminders of the grace of God in that? Now, at the same time, we don't run there and say, okay, like, let me, you know, get a list, but through a lot of question asking, we're going to be, as we are listening, we're simply going to be asking the question. Okay. What, what's most needed right now? You know, is this like just super severe and acute? And what's needed is some, some, some help and some protection because they're, they're thinking very seriously about hurting themselves. Um, you know, and so who, who can we call a, uh, counselor, a pastor, the hospital to get you to utilize resources to make sure that they're safe. Right. Right. Or is this not a, as, as acute in that way, but it's kind of a, a long running, just, just brain fog that somebody's struggling with and trying to figure out, you know, how can you ask questions to figure out what, what is contributing? What's a part of that? And then piece by piece, moment by moment, just bringing the truth of the gospel, uh, the truth of scripture to bear and remembering all along that you are, it's not, you can't transform them. You can't fix this problem. You can't even make them more like Jesus, but God has placed you in their life to be a part of the incredible and glorious and mysterious and miraculous work that he is doing. And they're like, so how can you love them, um, and care for them and walk with them through that? So I don't know if that's, if that's specific enough for what you're asking, but I think that's what comes to mind. I like the idea of just going back to the, just the simple concept of listening. You know, it is Proverbs 18, 13, right? You know, we have to listen. I like the way Adams translates it as somebody that doesn't listen has done a stupid and disgraceful thing. If they answer a matter before they hear it, that's how he translates that verse. But, you know, I think that that's something that is, is maybe, I don't know if you can, if, if the concept of listening carries with this or maybe to add a word to it. But yeah. Hearing listening. Because I think maybe sometimes we can hear things, but like either comes across as disinterested or we're just hearing them to be able to give them what they need as far as this verse or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so good. Well, I was, I've tend to, I don't know if it was, I, I, I depended on this or fell back on this because that was so green with counseling and like, okay, well, I need to get everything. So I can go and research this and find out what to say. Just to say, I'm giving all my secrets away, I guess. But, but I, I'm just about to finish up with a counselee and we, we went almost 22 sessions. And this was something that we both were going back and forth, struggling like, okay, where's the issue at? And we're now at that place where it's like, all right, this is, this is graduation time. And he, he told me the other day, uh, last week, he said, he said, can I tell you something? He had been to a psychologist. He had been to someone that, that prescribed a medication and, um, two different ones. And, um, he said, my wife and I knew there was a difference right away. He said, you listened to us for the first time in three years. We felt like somebody was listening to us. And I was like, oh, well, thanks. So it really is real. I did not realize that that was such a big deal. It's so, it's so huge. And it's, and I mean, it can be transformative in its own, right. I'm in a number of different ways, but I, I think because it's a manifestation of genuine love, right? I think when you, I think it's that caring listening that you're talking about, right? It's, it's listening in love. It's listening because you actually care about the person. You're not, you're not just listening for facts. You're not just trying to like put it into, you know, the computer and spit out the right Bible verse. Like you're, you're listening because you actually care about the person. And that is all too rare. And, and especially when you have the love of Christ and you're listening in a reflection of that kind of genuine love. It is, it is so powerful. I, I mean, I'm afraid that most of us, I mean, like, like you said, I think most of us, when we think we're listening, what we're actually doing is just waiting. We're like waiting for them to stop talking so that we can say the thing that the thought that came to our mind. But listening to actually get to know somebody because we love them is, is, is something totally different. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, for someone, somebody may be listening to this and they say, okay, this is good stuff, but I'm not actually like a pastor or something like that. You know, I'm not going to go get like counseling certification training, um, even though I think you should. Um, but even, even, I think that right there is something that you can, you can effectively be Christ to someone. You can be Christ-like to someone that's in your, in your sphere, in your realm. That's, that's a part of your discipleship to them. Um, and, and I think people will be surprised that if they take time to genuinely listen, uh, they'll be surprised at how often they, they actually do have something truthful and rich and transformative to say eventually. Yeah. Right. Uh, to offer as well, but, but it starts there for sure. There's one more aspect before we close up, Scott, I wanted to dive into, because I think that there may be somebody, uh, that may be listening to, that says, you know what? I was, I was in church. My church experience was, you know, my life was messy, but I was sort of rejected because of the messiness. Or, and, you know, there may be extenuating circumstances, there may be all kinds of stuff, but what would, what would you say to them as saying, you know, I remember, I'm thinking about a guy right now who, you know, he, he is still in church. He's, he's, he's a pastor, but he was, he was told he, you know, he had to grow a beard or leave the church or, or, or, or shave his beard or leave the church because he wanted to grow a beard. You know, it's silly things like that. And, you know, for somebody, some people that, that would, that would just like, why, what's, what's the big deal? But I guess what I'm asking is like, what would be something that, you know, we're talking about this concept of loving messy people. Somebody says, I'm one of those messy people, but you know what? I was, I was turned away. And what would you say to them? That's, that's such a good question. It's such a hard question. I, I would start by saying, I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Like I, the, the, the pain of being rejected or hurt or dismissed. By the church is, does just, it cuts uniquely deep. Yeah. And I, my, first of all, my, my heart just breaks. And I would just say, I'm so sorry that that's been your experience. I, um, unfortunately people are messy and so is the church. Mm-hmm. And all the church is, is a group of people. And, and that means that there's, and there, there are, and there's ones that are messy and, and there's ones that are abusive. And so I don't want to just kind of like paint everything like, oh, it's just all a card. Like, I guess I would say this. I, I think that in that sense, in those places where you've been hurt by the church like that. And if you've been hurt by some people in the church or hurt by the church, I think, I guess one step would be to seek reconciliation and, and as a means of growth for you and for, uh, whoever you were hurt by. Um, that, that's not always possible and, and, and it's not always wise to recognize that there is a, um, there are situations where there isn't repentance, right? And, and if, if there isn't repentance from whoever you were hurt by, then you, you can't be reconciled, right? Like, so I guess where there's an openness to repentance, I think that it, it, it, it's worth seeking to, to learn from and grow from one another. Because I, I mean, I know as a pastor, there's people I've wronged in my church and need their grace and have had to, had to ask for forgiveness, right? For things I said, or for ways I, you know, spoke to someone or things like that. I, I, I, I'm a messy pastor too. And so I'm, I'm thankful for the grace that, that doesn't show me, people have shown me, um, where there's not like that kind of openness to repentance. Um, I, I think that it is wise then to, to look for a, uh, to, to, to not feel constrained to that kind of corner of the, the, the large big C church. Where, um, that kind of hurt or being dealt with that way is, is perpetuated and unrepentant. Um, but I would also encourage them to not give up on the big C church. Yeah. And to recognize that there, there is a lot of, this is Christ's body. I think there's a temptation to, if I've been, uh, when I'm hurt by the little C church, I'm tempted to give up on the big C church. I'm tempted to give up on kind of the whole body of Christ, but there are all sorts of, um, healthy manifestations and growing manifestations of, of God's body in healthy local churches. Um, all over the place that, uh, the reality is we, we need as Christians, we, we need to be, we need one another. We need to be a part of the church. Absolutely. And so I, I, I would, both my heart would break for you and I would ask you just to invite you to, to not give up on the big C church, even if it's not wise to stay in the specific local church that, that you're in. So I, that's also my input or counsel in that would be different case to case in situations. Right. It's a hard question to ask without knowing all the details. But I, but I appreciate it, but I, but I appreciate it. Cause I think it's, it's important for us to think about that in this context. Yeah. Man, I, I don't know if somebody, um, I don't know specifically if somebody was helped by this, but I think, I think that there was a lot of good encouragement. Given and I don't, I don't do this always. Maybe I should, but I just, I feel like this would be a good place to do this on the podcast today is Scott. Would you, would you sort of close our time together with, with maybe a word of prayer? Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to. Lord God, we, uh, we come before you together, recognizing and confessing our, our finiteness, our limited limitations, Lord. And, um, I'm confronted with even the finiteness of my own words. Lord, I pray God that the, the things that are of you, the things that are true, Father, that we have shared and said today, Father, that they would stick in people's minds. They would draw people to you, that, that we would be forgotten, that John would be forgotten, that I would be forgotten. And that you would be remembered, that you would be glorified. Um, the things, Lord, that are, that are not of you, that are, are not helpful, Father, we pray that they would be forgotten easily too. But more than anything, Lord, I pray for those listening, that, um, you would work in their hearts to remind them and show them the depth and magnitude of your grace and your love and your kindness in Christ. And as you do, Father, that you would draw them, that you would draw all of us, uh, deeper into you and transform our lives, our hearts from the inside out. Um, we need you, Lord. We are desperate for you, for you to work in and through us, God. And I pray that, um, yeah, this, this, this, this time would just be one more small, um, piece that you would use to equip and inspire all of us in that, that calling to, to love one another, to care for another, and to be, to be your hands and feet in one another's lives. So we thank you and we praise you, Lord, in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Scott. Thank you so much for, for being on, joining us, sharing some of the things that God's worked in your life with other people. And, uh, I appreciate your willingness to do that. Come on, uh, this podunk podcast from a guy in Tennessee. Thank you, John. I really appreciate it, man. It's such a privilege. Yes, sir. And, uh, thanks everybody for listening today. And, uh, we hope that you'll, uh, subscribe to the podcast, uh, leave a rating and review. And until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFPNetwork.org. To find more podcasts like this one, resources, and meetups to encourage you on your journey. 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