57. Help! I Get Panic Attacks: An Interview with Lucy Ann Moll

I do not mean to be mean, I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. But you know, there's something about that local new guest, that independent from the middle, so we're going to separate the King James, I don't believe that you've got a lot of damn things, you've got a lot of damn things, you've got a lot of great tribulations, I'm going to have a Baptist church. I still believe, if you have gold a day in hell before I get my talents on a woman, I'm a preacher. The young preachers have two love of God, get pulled off in the Calvinist, and I'll fight it, I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over there, I'll get personal with you. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP Network. That seeks to bring freedom in Christ. From the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of the Scripture, but the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome back everyone to the For Freedom Podcast. We are excited to be back with you. We had a hiccup last week and so we were unable to bring you an episode last week. But we are really excited about our episode this week. Before we introduce our guest, John, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? How is life in Tennessee? Yeah, doing great. Doing great. Yeah, it's just busy. I mean, basically the reason we didn't get one is because we were just so busy with everything. We couldn't get any material prepared for it. So we just didn't have anything last week. But we are excited about today. Before we bring our guest on, we have, you know, still got that big announcement, Black Friday. We're looking towards the Black Friday. Black Friday. It's coming. We're in November now. And so the countdown is on for the big announcement. So I hope you're ready for that. And I hope our listeners are excited about it. I know we are. I know we're excited about getting more details out about that. And so look forward to that coming up from the RFP guys. Yeah. So one of the things that we've actually had some authors on here lately from the Shepherds Press series. And we had Christine Chappell who wrote, Help, I've Been Diagnosed with a Mental Disorder. We just interviewed Jim Neuheiser with Help, I Need a Church. And so I've been actually trying to get Miss Lucy here on for a while now. And so I'm very excited about today. But we have Dr. Lucy Ann Mole who wrote, Help, I Have Panic Attacks and that book there. So Lucy, thank you so much for being with us today. Oh, it's my pleasure to be with you guys. You guys have such a nice way of speaking to each other. It's very encouraging. So I really appreciate it. Well, thank you. Well, before we get into that, the first question we're going to ask you is why did you write the book? Before we get into that, can you just sort of tell everybody sort of a little bit about yourself and your ministry and what you do? Right. So I'm a full-time biblical counselor and I started biblical counseling online way before coronavirus, before people started doing that. In 2008, I began online. Now I'm full-time online. You know, like everybody I meet and I've met with people in six out of seven continents. I'm missing Antarctica. But I've got all the other continents. It'd be tough to find one there. I'm thinking it's going to be scientists who probably need it for sure. Just imagine Antarctica at night. I mean, in the, you know, parts of the seasons as well as, you know, like what I'm going to do, counsel penguin. I mean, like that's not going to exactly happen. But, or tourism, there's a lot of tourism, like fishing, fishing goes on that. But I'm like, what are they going to be in their fishing boat? And they're going to need counseling? Yeah. I don't think so. But, but yeah, I've been, I've been, I only counsel in English though. But, but yeah, and I've been doing that since 08. I, I'm on staff with biblical counseling center based in greater Chicago. I'm talking to you from Alabama. That's where I am. I'm just South. If I drive 10 minutes North, I am in Tennessee. That's how close I am to the border. So yeah, I specialize in the area of anxiety, particularly in the area of panic attacks. Right now I'm working on a course that will be online. It's not going to come out for a few months on panic attacks. And I, I had a, you know, coaching groups I've had online through zoom, you know, regarding panic attacks. And of course I've written that mini book, you know, help. I get panic attacks. And, but I also counsel other subjects as well, but it is maybe because we'll get into this, but maybe it's because I have had panic attacks and I've had victory over panic attacks as part of the reason why I wrote the book, but, but yeah, that's the thing with biblical counseling. We, we, we, we are trying to try to be a breadth of, of all the subjects, but, uh, you know, James has just started his training. And so like, that's one of the things you get, you gotta be ready for what comes at you. But, uh, yeah, definitely there are some that have specializations and, and so you wrote this book, how long it's been a few years now since, since you actually wrote the book. It, it was, uh, it came out in 2019. It's this book right here. Right. Okay. Maybe he wants to see it. And that's, that's the book, you know, help. I get panic attacks. Yeah. And so, uh, I, you know, like the, the person who's the editor for this, this series, you know, he asked me if there was a topic, if there's any topic I didn't want to write about, what would it be? And that would be the topic because there's so many people who get panic attacks and during all the shutdowns and everything like that, it increase anxiety increase. And, you know, at the heart of panic attacks is I would say, um, runaway worry. It is worry. If you think about worry, like, like, so what, you know, I'm worried about, you know, paying my electric bill, which is a big deal, but, but panic attacks, you know, why, why would some people, why would some people would it manifest as panic attacks? So, so that, that's, um, you know, that, that was when, um, the editor contacted me, that was what I focused on because I, like I said, it had been something I had experienced probably, I probably had my first panic attack when I was 18, but then it was just the one standalone panic attack. And it was like, okay, that's that. And didn't have one, but then I was around age 27. I was in my late twenties. And then that started panic attack after panic attack. And I, in my world began to close down because my mother had had panic attacks. When I had one, I knew what was happening, but for a lot of people, they don't know that. And that's why for many people, why they end up going to the ER, they think they're having a heart attack. And of course, if somebody is thinking like they need medical attention, of course, you know, see your doctor, but, but, uh, I knew what it was, but that just because I knew what it was, wasn't like you just flip a switch and like, totally, this is what you do. One, two, three, easy. It's, um, it, it's something that takes, you know, turning to God, you know, looking at his word, especially in regard to worry, because again, anxious thinking is what is at the heart of panic attacks. But I'm sure we'll talk about this in a second, but it shows up as a physio. Part of it is a physiological response to that anxious thinking. And that's where you start getting the rapid heartbeat, the shallow breathing for some people that they might have numbness in the fingers and toes. Not everybody gets that, um, uh, um, the sensation of lump in throat, dizziness, where you might feel like you're weak in the knees. So it's, it, like we are embodied souls. So we're not only souls, you know, God in his wisdom gave us bodies. So we're embodied souls, but sometimes what's coming together here is the entwining of both the body and the spirit. So what's going on in our spirit, the anxious thinking for some people, it's a minority of people, but for some people it shows up as panic attacks and, you know, it's frightening. It's scary. If you've ever had one, probably some of your listeners have had them. It, it seems like there's no hope. There's no way out, especially when they're, they're recurring. And so a lot of times when people start counseling with me, they're not like me when I was 18 and had one panic attack. They're the people who are, where it's recurring and they're looking for God's answers to that. And that's what I helped them with. Yeah. I remember thinking as I was younger, like I hear the term and I'm like, what is that? What's wrong? That's, that's a figment of their imagination. And then when I actually looked into some of this and started, you know, doing counseling, training and stuff and read the definition of it, I was like, I've had one of those. I think I've, I've experienced that. And, and so, yeah, and I, I, I, I like, you sort of explained a little bit about what one was and James, if you have a question, just interrupt me, but what one was, but is there any, I think, is there any nuance to it as well? As far as like how some people may want, you know, view anxiety or a panic attack or, you know, the difference between that? Well, think of a panic attack as an extreme fear experience. Okay. So it's fear, it's extreme and you experience it. So extreme fear experience. You don't have the terminology panic attack is not in the Bible. The word fear is in there. Terror is in there. You know, that word is in the Bible. So what's happening, what's going on is that with a panic attack, the way God made our bodies. So it's good, you know, the way God made our bodies, our autonomic nervous system. We have the, I mean, a little bit in science here. There's the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system. And so when we sense danger, the fight, flight, freeze response, you know, kicks into gear. So there's a danger. The danger can be real. The danger can be imaginary. Okay. I'm not saying that panic attacks are imaginary. I don't mean that at all. I mean, the danger can be imaginary. So like, if you can't punch the bad guy or run from the grizzly bear, what do you do? You know, you become, what do you do? You're, because your body, the God given way to punch the bad guy or run from the grizzly bear, certain things are happening in your system, which would be increased heart rate, which would be dilated pupils, increased respiration and onward. You know, the blood is going from the extremities, you know, toward the core. That's what's happening. So you can fight, fight, freeze. You know, so you can do that. So with panic attacks, you know, think of it for a second here. Think of like, like you say in your kitchen, you have a toaster and let's say you're, you're gonna, you're gonna, you know, toast some bread and you want to, you want to have toast for the morning. Well, the toast starts burning. And so, you know, you have fire alarms. And so your farm alarm in your kitchen starts going off. Do you need to attend to it? Well, yeah, there's toast that's burning, but, but a fire alarm is meant, it's highly sensitive. It's meant to catch a fire. Your, your house isn't really burning down. What you got is burnt toast, but your body, you're, you're at the moment, the mind, the brain will do, the brain will go ahead and turn on all of that. And some people, not every, this doesn't again happen to everybody. And some people turns on and then they start, you know, basically even having a sense of doom, perhaps maybe they even have a, think like they want to die without being suicidal because they want to flee from their panic attack. So it is not, like I said, the fire alarm goes off as God means it to go off, but the person is not distinguishing between burnt toast and the house being on fire. And that, that is what's going on here. And so like in Philippians 4, 8, and I'm just going to quote just a very small part of that, of that scripture verse, whatever's true, think about such things. So what's true? Is it burnt toast or is my fire, is the house on fire? With panic attacks, what happens oftentimes is we start getting that first physiological symptom. And I'll even ask people like, what is your first physiological symptom? You know, for some people it's increased heart rate. For someone else, they feel like their chest, it feels like an elephant's, you know, sitting on their chest. For, for someone else it's, you know, they feel like their throat's closing up. It differs for different people. Someone else they might, dizziness is a common one. They start feeling lightheaded. So when they start getting that, that physiological response to the anxious thinking, then, then begin to tell yourself, this is discomfort. It is not danger. God is with me. I am safe. Again, speaking truth, speaking truth to what's going on as opposed to like, ah, you know, it's, it's, my house is on fire, my house is on fire, and it's burnt toast. So that, that's part of, you know, that's part of what's going on in all of this. But the physiological response is correct. What's going wrong here is the anxious thinking. Yeah. That's, and, and then, you know, we have throughout the Bible, you know, like, you know, and well, again, back to Philippians, again, Philippians 4, 6, it begins with do not be anxious. You know, it says that, but, you know, like, you know, when I work with people like, yeah, easier said than done. Well, of course it's easier to say than to do. Like, that's where we go into it of like, um, uh, second, uh, Corinthians 10, 5, you know, take captive every thought from the obedience of Christ and begin to, you know, identify your thoughts, reject, identify anxious thoughts, thoughts, reject anxious thoughts, replace anxious thoughts, you know, with the word of God and with right thinking. And, um, that, that's kind of, I mean, I'm making it sound so easy. It was that easy. You know, people were like, they've been talking to me. Right. Let's get out of it. And I think it's also good to point out, like when, when somebody's going through that, I like what you said about the part where, when there's not someone to hit and there's not something to run away from. Um, I think for someone who's, who's experiencing that, there can be a lot of frustration and just like, oh, why does this keep happening? And not really, I mean, in your experience with, with working with people like this, is it, is there like issues with why does this happen? Like not knowing why they're experiencing necessarily the panic attacks or the unknown reason and, and that play part of it, if you, I don't know, sometimes my questions don't make sense. No, no, no, no. It's a good question. I think, I think part of it is a lot of people think it's completely like they have some sort of physical condition, a physical malady of some sort. And so then that's where people might go to doctor, to doctor, to doctor, trying to figure it out, like in, in the, um, in the, the mini book, you know, help I get panic attacks. I read about that. I write about, you know, someone named Joe and Joe, he had facial pressure. That was his first panic symptom. Um, he had that. So, and, and he wasn't sure what it was. Um, he had the fear he knew is totally afraid. And he started, he started interfering with his work, which is very, very common. It starts interfering with your life, especially if it's recurring panic attacks. And then, um, and then, so he saw ear, nose, throat guy, you know, he, you know, saw his primary care. I think he was wondering if he had allergies. And so he went to many doctors, but then it came out like, okay, all those tests were negative. And so it had to be related somehow to stress. And then, you know, he talked with a doctor and then it was determined that he got the, you know, like, yeah, what's going on with you is panic attacks. So a lot of times people think it's purely physical. Um, and, and, and there's nothing wrong, obviously with, with going to the doctor and checking it out. Um, but it turns out, like I said, um, at the heart of panic attacks is anxious thinking. And just real quick, um, for some people, uh, some people with, I'm going to make this sound like too simple. It's more nuanced than this. Like some people, their panic attacks come from a phobia. Think of somebody they're afraid of riding elevators, for example. So if they get an elevator, they start having panic attacks, or maybe they had their first panic attack in an elevator. So now they're pairing, it's supposed to Pavlov dogs, you know, go back to that whole, um, experiment that was done. I think in the early 1900s, hundreds, they're pairing elevators with panic attacks. So the solution then is to avoid elevators, avoid elevators. I avoid panic attacks. Now, I guess if somebody has a life where they don't have to be in elevators and lots of us never have to be in an elevator, that's not such a horrible thing. You know, that does that one little part of their life, but what, what if their, what if their job is on the 20th floor of a building? Well, now that's a problem. I mean, that's a real problem. They're going to be walking up and down all those, you know, 20 flights. But, but more often, um, um, when I, when I talk to people, it's more like, uh, it shows up in driving, uh, grocery shopping, um, social situations, um, things like that. So one, you know, one, again, the three things, uh, phobias like being afraid of spiders or bees or thunderstorms or elevators or flying, or you just, you know, just think of all the phobias to social situations is feeling very uncomfortable being in think of all the social situations, which obviously would include church. Um, that would be, you know, you know, restaurants, uh, movie theaters, just where there's a whole bunch of people congregated. And then the third one, I just call it fear of fear. And that's where, that's where people, when they meet with me, usually they're at that point of fear of fear, which they're afraid of their greatest fear is having a panic attack. So it's not even so much afraid of the elevator or the restaurant. Um, they're afraid of having another panic attack. So let me start having, when they're fearing having another panic attack that can start encompassing much more of life than just, than just a couple of things. It's, it becomes more, um, all encompassing them. Yeah. It's debilitating too. John, if you're, if you're okay with me saying a couple of things, John, I know you've carried the conversation so far. Sorry. Um, I get, I get interested. I'm like, Oh, I know. I know. I do too. I do too. But I don't want to overstep you. Um, so my question, I've got a thought here. Um, I've never had a panic attack and I know other people have, I know of people that have, um, I've talked to people that have, I've got friends that, um, have experienced the fear and the flight and all that, all the things that go along with it. Uh, but the first time I actually physically saw it because even this thought of panic attacks and fear isn't portrayed in movies. It's not something that people even want to address in a movie theater in a, in a style of film. It's not, it doesn't bring money in. So they don't talk about it. Um, but the first time I saw it was recently, um, Apple just put out a show and it's not the best show, but I like it. It's called Ted Lasso and he has several panic attacks and on the show and they show him dealing with them and really turning in and separating from what's going on. And eventually he does go to a psychologist and sees a therapist and works through some, some issues. Uh, but that was the first time I had seen that actually happen and seen, um, even portrayed what a panic attack is. And it was really intriguing because, uh, it really showed the, uh, how the mind works, how the body works. Um, so, so what are some things really going into this next question of how can we offer help? How can we offer hope from the Bible, um, to say, you know, I know you suffer with panic attacks. Here's some quick solutions and some helps and some hope for you. Well, that's a big question. So there's a few different things. Like first off, um, some people are more likely to get panic attacks than other people. So we'll start there. Okay. People who grew up in fearful homes, fearful situations. So preparation is always wise. So if you know, like your listeners, if you know, you're the kind of person who's more likely to be fearful, um, or maybe you just have the kind of personality from the get go. Like you just happen to be like, even at age, you know, like your mom or dad told you like, oh yeah, you were the kind of kid always shrunk back. Unlike your brother who was like the always going out there and doing everything. So maybe some people have just a more, uh, their makeup. They just tend to have a more fearful makeup just to begin with, as opposed to a bold person who's out there doing everything. Like be aware of kind of how God made you, you know, Psalm 139. You're fearfully, wonderfully made all your works wonderful. And then also if you grew up in a fearful home life, um, or different traumas happened, which might not be that you're, you could have had amazing parents and amazing home life, but there were certain things that just happened along the way that were fearful, different kinds of traumas that could be so many different things. Um, then already be in the word of God already be in prayer desire. You know, like it says in Colossians two, six, just as you received Jesus Christ, the Lord. So walk in him. So do those things that would be in accordance with a lifestyle of bent toward Christian living. And I don't mean like Christian doing, I mean, more like being like no Jesus, you know, like that. I mean, no Jesus. I don't, of course, salvation. Know him as your Lord and savior. Of course that, you know, that's a working of the Holy spirit in you that calls people to himself, but also, um, you know, be in the word. Those are things like, if you want to think of it as things that a person can do, like before panic attack, in addition to things like, like I was working with one person. Um, he lives in, uh, Paraguay, um, originally from South Africa. So I, I only, like I said, only counsel in English. So we could do it all in English. Um, part of what we did was cut out his caffeine. Now that didn't make all those panic attacks go away. It didn't, but it lessened them for sure. Lessened the intensity and frequency. So then that part of that is in addition to knowing, you know, kind of like your makeup and being in the word of God, but also be aware of how you're treating your body. You know, like when you are doing things like getting good rest, because insomnia can play into panic attacks when you're eating. It doesn't be a perfect nutrition, but good nutrition, good water intake, getting exercise and so forth. All of that helps to lessen, minimize panic attacks. So that's, that's kind of the preparation part of it. Also during a panic attack, it's how you speak to yourself in, um, Psalm 42 verse five, which is also in verse 11. Um, the Psalmist says, um, why are you cast down on my soul? Why are you in turmoil within me? So he asks the question, then he gives himself the answer, which is hope in God. So his, his view where he's looking, his focus is not on his circumstances. If you read that whole Psalm, a lot of bad things are happening in that Psalm. It'd make anybody anxious. Um, but he's telling himself what to do. He's telling himself to hope in God. And so he's, he's instructing himself where to look. Don't look at what's going on. Look, look to God. And you can see both in, um, Matthew 6 and in, uh, Luke 12, there's those, uh, parts in there that talk about, you know, like, like look to look, look at the birds, look at the, you know, the flowers in the field. Does not God provide for the birds? Does not God provide for the, for the, the flowers in the field? And it's in the answer of course is yes, he does. So why do you worry? Why do you worry about tomorrow? Tomorrow worry about self. Now that goes, again, keep circling back to that anxious thinking that's at the heart of panic attacks. And so then how do we handle that? And it's a lot of it is self-talk and I don't want to make that sound all psychological. How about no scripture to a degree, or at least have it written like on, on, um, post-it notes and put it on, you know, around your house. Be aware of what God's word says about anxiety, about fear. Even in some ways, more importantly than that would be the character of God, because you can only truly trust in a God whom, you know, as he reveals himself in scripture or else you're not really turning to the true God. If you have some sort of like messed up notion of him being like an ogre, you know, like a taskmaster, taskmaster in the sky is going to like, you know, hurt you or something like that, but know the one true God. And then after a panic attack would be like, don't look upon it. Cause so easy for us, if we get another panic attack after we've had some victory over them is to think like, okay, that was a waste of time. This is hopeless. It's so easy to give up, you know, cause it is like you said, James, it is so, uh, debilitating. It is so scary. It's terrifying. It truly is terrifying. Um, we don't want to have another one, but not to let the setback derail you because God is always there and the Holy spirit is always guiding you and helping you. So yeah, just like anything else in life, you could have a setback. Think of something else that someone might have a setback with. Like maybe they used to drop F-bombs. They stopped doing that. And now they let one out like, oh no, I'm horrible. You know, like, like, you know, my life is over now. I mean, that's probably not the best analogy, but it, or comparison, but it would be similar to that. It's like, if you have another panic attack, it's not the end of the world. You can, you can remember who God is. You can, you know, continue to entrust yourself. It's basically those two parts. Entrust yourself to God. And at the same time, I call them micro actions. Take micro actions where you're not avoiding, but rather engaging. That's probably the thing that keeps panic attacks. People hate this when I say this. So people who are listening, don't hate me, you know, just, just take it. Probably the worst thing you could do with a panic attack is to completely avoid the situation. But that doesn't mean you also don't jump into it. Like, like do a cannonball into your fear either. You, you re-engage wisely, which is why it's micro actions. When I work with people on it, of how, at the same time, entrusting yourself to God, knowing that he's in control, that when that, you know, we start noticing the heart beating fast and you're like thinking, oh no, no, I'm gonna get another. That's the kind of thing that people, the bad self to people do is like, oh no, no, it's gonna be another, you know, like, ah, it's gonna be another panic attack, which it could be. It could go down that path. But then as you kind of like, um, you train yourself to do this, um, as you take that step back and you, you, you let yourself instead let the word of God inform you like, yes, this is uncomfortable. Like having, noticing that my heart's beating really fast is uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable. This is, you know, discomfort. It is not danger. God is with me. I am safe already. You know, people I talked to already, they start noticing their anxiety levels going down. The reason why is because they're taking that micro action of engaging as opposed to avoiding and they're looking to God at the same time. So those are, that's a really long answer, James, to your, to your, to your question, but hopefully it's, it's helpful. Yeah, that's, that's great. And I appreciate it. And I think a lot of people can get help from that because, um, they're, they're able to realize what is going on and identify the root problem of it. And let's start and try to peel away the onion almost to figure out why I'm having these, these attacks. And, uh, by God's grace, we're able to do that. So, yeah. When you talk about root problem, it goes deeper than that too. Yeah. Um, as all things do, you know, it goes deeper than that is what am I valuing? Um, and for some people like, say there are people pleaser. Like when I had my first panic attack, that's what played into it. I was very concerned about my, I was working at a magazine at the time. I was very concerned about my boss's opinion of me. And I was replaying as I was driving on, you know, the expressway on the way home. And I'm replaying in my mind, you know, what had happened at the office. And as I'm hitting this one point place in the expressway kind of splits, either go that way to the left or that way to the right. And as I came upon that, my heart's, you know, I was, I had the anxious thinking. I was replaying in my mind what was happening, what had happened earlier in the office. And that's what I'm thinking on. That's what I'm dwelling on. So I'm dwelling, instead of dwelling on what is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, praiseworthy. I'm dwelling on the opposite of what went wrong. And what does she think of me? And dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, all of that. That's what I'm dwelling on. And so I had the anxious thinking and then my heart started being faster. And then I started, you know, I'm gripping on my steering wheel, you know, like, like a death grip. And I'm doing that same time, you know, like perspiration is just flowing down off my face. That's happening as well as, you know, I started noticing it felt like my knees felt like super wobbly. And then in a few other things were going on, I remember, you know, getting off the ramp, you know, at my exit, I remember thinking to myself as going off the, going on the ramp to, you know, off my exit, you know, like there's grass in the middle there. And I said to myself, this is going to sound insane. And just so you guys, and your listeners are going to sound insane. If you have experienced pain attacks, you guys might get it. At least you'll have mercy on others. Hopefully when you learn of them, I started saying to myself, drive into the ditch, Lucy, drive into the ditch. I was not suicidal. I did not want to die, but it was like, that's how, that's how my, it's almost like some, something outside myself took over my brain. I'm not going all demonic here. I don't mean it like that. It's again, it goes into anxious thinking, but that was the, that was the solution. The short, very short, extremely short-term solution was driving to the ditch because then I don't have to be driving on the, on the highway or the ramp anymore. But then, you know, it, it came, you know, on that day, you know, as I got off the highway, you know, it improved and my heart started beating slower, you know, things like that. I started feeling better. But like I said earlier, I knew from, since my mother had panic attacks, I knew what was, what was going on since I had that, but at the root cause of, of it was somebody else's opinion of me. That's what was deeper than, you know, like some of the root causes could be, you know, peace, comfort, reputation, others' opinions, on and on and on. And so that then is what, like, what goes deeper than the anxious thinking, what was below that? And that was her opinion. But there wasn't. One of you asked me like a really, really good question of like, okay, what can we do about it? But if, you know, woulda, coulda, shoulda, if I could have addressed that earlier, then I probably would have never had the panic attack in the first place. But that kind of gets me to, you know, like I did this whole, you know, I did this whole series of online coaching for people. And it's like, is it sinful? Are panic attacks sinful? And that's a deep question. Like, are they, I mean, are they, I mean, I really, I really wrestled with that. And I came up to a conclusion. I haven't really, really seen anybody write on this very much, or how about a little bit, but in my opinion, incomplete. The way that the body responds, the autonomic nervous system responding just how God meant it to do, you know, to either, you know, punch the bad guy or run from the grizzly bear is responding exactly how God intended. So that is not simple. Right. It's the anxious thinking. It's the anxious thinking that's sinful. So, so if I, if I have a panic attack, that's not necessarily the attack itself. When I say the attack itself, I'm talking about the increased heart rate, all the physiological parts of it. That part isn't sinful. My body's doing exactly what it was meant to do. But again, I'm interpreting it as a house fire, not as burnt toast when the fire alarm goes off. And so that is where my interpretation needs to change. And I'm allowing myself to fall into that anxious thinking. And that, that, that then is what it can change. I can, I'm not going to change the way that my body responds because the way God made our bodies, but I can change my anxious thinking. And that's what we've worked up, worked on in biblical concept. Right. And, and this is, you know, we're, we're trying to be like encouraging to someone. If you're listening, this is, we're meaning this to be encouraging. I want people to understand this is by no means. Lucy, when you, when you working with people, this is not a one, one session and you're done and they've got it late. Right. This is something that you're, you, it takes time to work through these things to get to where, where you talk to at the beginning of saying that you've healed past this affecting your, your life on an, on a, on a, you know, recurring basis. So, you know, I just want to say that to them. Like, we're not saying, Hey, you know, take what Lucy, write what Lucy wrote down today. And like, you know, that, that's your problem. If you're still experiencing it, something wrong with you. Now, this is, this is something that we, we are taking very seriously. And we believe that it is not something that's just corrected as well, just like that, because these are habits that we, we form mental habits that we formed that, that have to then be broken down and corrected. Exactly. Just as anxious thinking becomes a habit of anxious thinking, then, then the solution then is to unlearn the habit of anxious thinking as we look to God's word and, and even his church and how then do we unlearn that habit that would be if you're in a church that helps you do that. Not all churches do that. Right. Right. And this is, you know, we're, we're, we're pushing against our time, but real quickly, we want to cover this last sort of question and issue because we, we, you know, a lot of those that are, that are listening, you know, their, their avenue may be spiritual abuse. And so we in biblical counseling are saying, let's, let's, you know, we understand the importance of scripture in their life. We understand the importance of even the church as a means of grace to grow closer to Christ. But if that is the situation where they're interpreting that that's when the panic attack is causing and it's, it's causing friction between them. Like, I know I need to go here, but I don't, like you were saying, they're anticipating that panic attack. What is maybe something that you could encourage somebody or say to them that might be helpful for them today? Well, most importantly is God is faithful and there is hope. That's the most important thing. And, and there is, there is, there is, you know, biblical solution to panic attacks. There is a victory over them. There can be that said, okay, I'm going to use an analogy, which would be kind of similar, though it's very different. Think of, think of somebody has, has migraines. Like, you know, they go to the doctor, they might get medication, maybe medication doesn't work for them, but it's something that they deal with, but they could have, in fact, they could, could get to a place where they have no or very few migraines because of other lifestyle changes they've made as well. So it's similar with panic attacks. You know, you can get to a place where you have no or very few of them. And then the solution is, is like I mentioned, is, is, you know, dealing with the anxious thinking. And in the, in a church, then I like this concept of, you know, trust a Christian friend. You're having a trusted Christian friend. You know, I'm talking about a same gender friend, you know, guys with guys, you know, gals with gals. That you could actually, you know, share your heart with the other person. The other person can listen. And it's, it's like shy of biblical counseling, but you are heard, you can share what's going on. And if they're a trusted Christian friend, then they can help point you in the right direction and they can help you with, with what you're dealing with. Sometimes even like a positive response would, would be the person listening and not discounting. Like you must really be looney tunes here. You know, I don't understand. That's irrational. Anybody who's suffered panic attacks, like, yeah, it's totally irrational. I understand that. You know, let's say somebody has like fear of flying and they get panic attacks whenever they start thinking about going to the airport or jumping on a flight and anything like along those lines. They'll, they'll agree. They'll go. I understand. Of all the different modes of, of, of, of traveling. Yes. Flying is the safest. Nonetheless, I still have panic attacks and, but just having that trusted Christian friend to be able to share that with and have them hear you without them negating. Well, that doesn't make any sense or like, you must, you must like, you must be crazy or, or that's such an insane sort of thing. Rather, you want the other person that you're speaking with to listen and to encourage you and to just really hear. Sometimes the, the best biblical counseling is somebody listening, you know, as opposed to prescribing these like easy solutions or something like that. It's like, I like to joke about, you know, like, you know, take two Bible verses and call me in the morning. And biblical counseling is nothing like that. Biblical counseling is regarding, you know, giving hope and understanding the person and then talking to the person, you know, who, who's in front of you and then helping, helping that person and helping them with like the panic attacks, understanding that, you know, the, you know, fight, fight, freeze response is part of the autonomic nervous system. And now we, what we need to do is we need to, you know, learn how to speak differently to ourselves instead of letting the anxious thinking go crazy. And then we have another panic attack. There definitely is a way out of panic attacks. There's definitely victory over them for sure. And it's through entrusting ourselves to God at the same time, taking micro action. Yeah. And we want to, we want to, I think a good first step would be, you know, picking up Lucy's book, um, help. I get panic attacks. And we're going to link that in a show notes, uh, from Amazon and I've read it. And I think it is a, uh, very, very valuable resource. And, uh, you know, go to the biblical counseling.com or biblical counseling, coalition.com and, and search for a counselor in your area. And so that can, that can help you work that. James, do you have anything that you'd like to close with? You know, this was super helpful for me. Um, a lot of things that are going on in our family right now with my, my family, that this is going to be a lot of practical stuff that I'm going to be able to use and to help others. Um, so personally, this was a great conversation. Um, and if it just helped me, then, you know, it was worth the show. Uh, but I hope it's going to help someone else out. And, uh, I'm sure Lucy, you're available to talk to anyone. Uh, if you want to give your email or any way to contact them, uh, the people that can contact you, that's fine, but, um, definitely get her book. Definitely read that. Uh, it's been, been a great to be able to talk with you today. Yeah, it was, it was great getting to know both of you too, you know, John and James and my email, somebody, the easiest way to contact me is to go to my, um, not my email on my website, Lucy and mall.com. And then, and then there's a, you know, there's a, just hit the contact tab and go ahead and send me a, um, send me a message and I'll get back to you. Um, I don't want to leave again, you know, uh, everyone with, with hope that, that there is a victory over panic attacks. It's not, it's not, it's not something you have to live with for the rest of your life. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll, we'll, we'll link the website and the show notes as well. And, uh, we, we forgot to announce one thing at the beginning, uh, and that is something that is coming within the network and that is the podcast on the power of a story. And, uh, so we want to, uh, if you are looking for more podcasts, it's sort of like what, uh, James and I, uh, do here, then, uh, you can go to the RFP network.org and, um, and check that out. And, uh, James, I believe that's, uh, you know, what's the, what's the thing that we do at the end of the, um, uh, well, no, like, uh, share, subscribe, all that stuff. You know, I always mess that up anyways. Um, until next time to God, not the pastor be the glory. Thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFP network.org to find more podcasts like this one resources and meetups to encourage you on your journey. Oh, Oh, Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh

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