56. Help! I Need a Church: An Interview with Dr. Jim Newheiser

Welcome back, everybody, to the For Freedom podcast, where we seek to spread freedom in Christ for those that have been through spiritual abuse and legalism. And we are glad to be back today. We've got an exciting show episode for you, but good to have my main man, James. Here, how are you doing today, James? I'm doing well. Good to be with you today. Good to be able to record. You know, sometimes we take this for granted, being able to talk into a microphone and have our conversations aired all across the world. But we do appreciate our listeners. We do appreciate the good feedback that we've gotten. And, John, there's two big announcements that we want to start out with. We're just going to give a brief intro, and then we're going to jump right into our episode for today. First announcement is, I don't know if you've seen on the family page, but there is a new podcast coming out. So they'll be starting in January. Some have asked what this is. It's called The Power of a Story. And the RFP guys are putting it together. And basically what it's going to be is you are going to be able to record your story and in a 15, 20 minute block and send it to them. And then they'll put it out on the podcast platform. So it's a way where we've done a lot of stories on our podcast. I know the RFP guys and the RFWP and the 26 letters, John and Eli and the church split, they have all done stories before. And we've seen a lot of great things from that. And so the guys have put together this idea to start allowing you to be able to record your story and send it to them. And then we'll put it up there just so others can hear a way to express what's going on in your life. And so I'm really excited about that. I hope that you will be a part of that. Yeah, that's it. I think that's going to be a great addition to the network, the RFP network, the power of a story. And I totally agree with it. I think that there's definitely we've seen the proof is in the pudding and that help can be found in the stories. There's another announcement, James. Yeah. Big announcement here. And this big announcement will be coming at the end of November. That's all I can tell you. You can't tell. I think that's all I can tell, John. It's a network announcement. It's not just for the for freedom people, but it's a network. RFP network wide announcement. This is something big coming. Yeah. So how big is it? Is it like, oh, hey, everybody's going to find that. I'll be like, you guys built that up or is it going to be like, oh, this is really cool. Or is like, holy cow, this is big. I'm going to say monumental. What? It's going to be huge. Bigger than holy cow. This is big. Bigger than holy cow. This is going to be big, like huge, huge. It's going to be huge. Silent H huge. It's going to be the biggest announcement of all announcements. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. Wonderful. So, yeah, we're looking forward. We can't say anything. I won't say anything. Be silenced for good. So we do know we're excited. We're looking forward to it, but we can't wait for you guys to find out. And we have to listen to the main guys. Yeah. Find out. I mean, I don't even know when we can actually. I guess they'll be unveiling. No, I know. Yes. Sorry. My brain's not working. The last Thursday or Friday of November. Black Friday. Black Friday. We are unveiling this announcement. And so technically our podcast comes out on Thursday. So we could break the ice before everybody else. Oh, we should do that. We could do that. But I don't know. We'll pray about it and see what happens. We might get in trouble for that, shouldn't we? Maybe. We'll pray about it, though. Maybe get kicked out of the network. But we are excited about that. And hopefully you'll join in to that. And John? Yeah, we're excited about today's conversation. This is something James and I have both been looking forward to. One of those sort of interviews where we're like, hey, let's just throw some of these things out there and see if one of them sticks. And so we're excited that Dr. Jim Neuheiser was kind enough to come on with us. So without any further delay, let's bring Jim on and get to this conversation. I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. You obey your pastor. If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got, hey, you don't have a King James. You don't have a Bible. I still believe there'd be a cold day in hell before I get my challenge from a woman. I'm a preacher. The young preachers that do love God getting pulled off in the Calvinist. And I'll fight it. I'll fight it. I'll fight you in the parking lot over it. I'll get personal with you. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP network. That seeks to bring freedom in Christ. From the spiritual abuse of legalism in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Now here are your hosts, John Hollifield and James Sacred. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of the Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. Bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. We are so excited and thankful to have Dr. Jim Neuheiser with us today. And before I turn it over to Dr. Neuheiser, let me just sort of give a rundown. He's probably the most prestigious person we've ever had on our podcast. But he has served in the pastorate for many years. His current position is he's the director of the Christian Counseling Program and associate professor of Christian Counseling and Pastoral Theology at RTS in Charlotte, North Carolina. He also serves as the director of the Institute for Biblical Counseling and the Discipleship, IBCD. He is a current board member for the BCC, the Biblical Counseling Coalition, and the ACBC Association of Biblical Counselors, Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. And he is the author of several books up to, I think I counted around 15. And we're going to talk about one of those today. And then most importantly, he is a child of God and married to his wife, Caroline, for many years, and they have three adult children. Dr. Neuheiser, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really glad to be with you guys, and I'm excited about the topic you've picked. Yes, sir. I told James, I said, this is sort of like finally getting to talk to our professor, to our teacher, because we have been watching you and listening to your classes and gleaning from you. So now we actually get to pick your brain a little bit. Well, I'm humbled that anybody listens to my stuff, and I think it's even more amazing if they actually look at me. Now, all cards on the table, I do listen mostly to the podcast, just because it's easier to digest as I'm driving. But I have watched you a couple of times on the video online. But it is. The observation videos where you're watching the live counseling, I think there's so much going on in terms of body language of the counselor and the counselor. That's probably worth watching. But the rest of my stuff, I probably look better on audio. I haven't gotten to that point, but I am enjoying the IBCD training that I'm getting so far. I'm about halfway through the first level, and I've learned a lot. I've shared and digested a lot with my wife, and it's been a blessing to hear that. And like John said, it is pretty cool to be sitting in front of your teacher. And I was at the conference in Charlotte, and so I went to one of your breakouts that I was able to be a part of. And so it was a blessing to be there. Thank you. Yeah, man. So, John, go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say this. Before we get started in the questions, we're going to talk about a mini book that Dr. Neuhezer wrote called Help by Need a Church. And part of the Lifeline mini book series from Shepherds Press. Before we get into that, though, really quick, one of the things that we've wanted to do, James and I have wanted to do, as far as like re-switching our podcast or even refocusing our direction with the podcast, is really to sort of promote biblical counseling. And Dr. Neuhezer, if you don't mind, would you like, would you mind giving sort of like a two minutes, three minutes on sort of like how you came to biblical counseling and sort of where, why you believe it's necessary or important? Sure. I'd be happy if you called me Jim. And I tell my, yeah, at school that I'm Dr. Neuhezer in the classroom because that's the rules of the seminary and everywhere else I'm Jim. So I guess my journey in biblical counseling to summarize would be when I was in college at Baylor University in the 70s, a psychology student told me that some guy had written a book very critical of psychology, saying the Bible is what's needed and the psychology was really against the Bible in many ways. And that was referring to Competent to Counsel by Jay Adams. And I remember thinking, well, that sounds like a good idea, but you've got plenty to read when you're in college without adding other books. And then in 1981, I wound up in Saudi Arabia. And I actually had kind of a year where I had a lot of time to read with my work there for an oil company. And I read Competent to Counsel in Christian Counselor's Manual. I became convinced both of the false view of who we are, why we exist, what's wrong with us and how to fix us that's in psychology and the correct view that's in the Bible and also the sufficiency of scripture. We're all counselors in one sense, Romans 15, 14. You know, Paul says, concerning you, the whole church, you're full of goodness, full of knowledge, able to admonish one another. Yet in 1982, when I would have been 23 years old, I was made the pastor in kind of a battlefield promotion of an underground church of about 30 nationalities, 200 people. And suddenly people were coming to me left and right for counsel. And so back then, there weren't hundreds of many books or there were a handful of pamphlets by Jay Adams and a handful of books by Jay Adams and Wayne Mack. I had what there was and just thought to use the scriptures to help people. When we got kicked out of Saudi Arabia, I went to Westminster Seminary in California. At that time, Jay Adams was there. And George Sipioni was really my mentor in biblical counseling who was close to Jay. And both of them passed away in the last couple of years. And so I got that background. George asked me to start counseling after I graduated with what was then CCEF West and is now IBCD. And when George moved away, he put me in charge. That's the rapid version. My primary work was as a pastor of a local church in the San Diego area for 26 years. While I was part-time helping with the counseling ministry, I also had the privilege of teaching counseling now and then at Masters University. And then finally, several years ago, one of my former interns, who's now the president of RTS Charlotte, recruited me to come and help lead their biblical counseling program to equip future church leaders to use the scriptures to help people with their spiritual problems. That's, that's, that's, that's, well, that is one, one quick thing, just sort of, I've been for the past year and a half, I've been going through and finding any of the old conferences or legacy series that I can. And I have to say that one of my favorites to listen to when I come across a track that has George Sipioni, I'm like, oh, yes. I just enjoy listening to him. His style and it's just like his remarks just like make me laugh. Yeah. He's one of the most dear, humble, Christ-like men I've ever known. And was a great mentor to me. He was really mentored by Jay. I've got a picture in my front hall, eight by 10 of me with the two of them from a few years ago when we were all together. So, yeah. And there are a lot of his talks and a few of Jay's talks on the IDCD website. We hope to be adding more. That's, that's awesome. James, do you have anything to say before we jump into the subject? Well, for another episode, if we can get Jim back on, we have, we have met with what John, we'd say about 60 people in the RFP network that are interested in becoming certified biblical counselors. And so John is, he's finished his up and I'm in the process of doing mine. And so if you guys are listening to this and have information, want to know more information, what is the website that you are currently at and the organizations you're at that where people can go to find more about how to become that through where you're at? Right. So ibcb.org. And ibcb. And ibcb. Is one of many training centers that are affiliated with the association of certified biblical counselors. And so we have training available online that would take you through the process of being ACBC certified. There are some people, many people actually, who for the ACBC is a bit much for them. And so ibcb has also certificates of care and discipleship that aren't quite as extensive and rigorous as ACBC, or sometimes it could be kind of a stepping stone to get you there. So that's also available on the website and there's should be explanation on there. There are a lot of free audios. You can subscribe and have access to videos, which includes watching what counseling looks like in recordings. So thanks for the plug. Yeah. It's the ibcb.org. All right. And so if you guys are interested in that, go to it. I'm currently going through the IBCD and it's been a blessing to me, even as a pastor, to get some great information and be able to apply it in my teaching and in my everyday life, talking with people, discipling people. And so it's been a blessing. But today we're going to be talking about help. I need a church and the booklet that you put together for that. And so as we get started, our first question is we want to talk through is why is church attendance and membership important to Christian growth? We know in Hebrews, it says not to forsake the assembling together. But when you went through this book and as we're speaking to people, we have a page on the RFP network, if you're not a part of it, the family page. And so go and join that if you're not. But almost weekly, we get this question that someone asks, how can I trust a church with abuse, with legalism, with spiritual abuse, with pastors who are overbearing? Can I even trust going to a church? What would be your response of why church attendance is important or membership is important? I think it would help to know the background of actually how I wrote the booklet. And that is when I did counseling for the community, in addition to my local church through IBCD for many years and supervised others who were counseling. And one thing I learned was that if you help to counsel these solve a particular problem of a marriage issue or fear or depression or whatever, you work them through a problem, a conflict, that if they weren't in a good church, usually they were coming back with the same problem or a similar problem. And there was no more important aspect, no more important factor in someone really being able to be successful in working through an issue than having a great local church where they would be shepherded, where they could serve. And really fulfilling, like you said, in Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, also Hebrews 13, 17, how we need those who keep watch over our souls. And I also would say that for many of the people who came in, probably one of their biggest problems was the lack of a connection to a local church. They would come for Christian counseling or biblical counseling. Actually, one reason they would often come is because they didn't think they had anybody they could go to in their local church or their local church didn't really shepherd people. And so I was often in the position of advising people, even if they weren't church members, or occasionally they said, I realize the church I'm in isn't doing what the Bible says it should do. So how could I find a better church? And so I wrote the booklet. The first part is just why church is important. There are also some people who have an idea that I don't need church. I just, you know, just Jesus and me. And there's so much in the scripture, how we desperately need one another and a mark of a real Christian is someone who loves the brethren and is using his gifts to serve. And, you know, how we need each other, how we need accountability. We need under shepherds. But then also I had a criteria for choosing a church. Another thing I realized meeting with people is so often they would go to a church and immediately evaluate it based upon what instruments were on the stage, what kind of music they sang, what kind of coffee they served or whatever. And I tried to distinguish between secondary matters and primary matters. You know, certain programs a church has or musical style are not nearly as important as biblically qualified shepherds, the faithful preaching of the word, a gospel centeredness. And so I came up with 10, I call it instead of nine marks, 10 marks of a solid biblical church, not to direct all my counselees to say you have to come to our church. And actually, I kind of didn't want that for various reasons. And, you know, I mean, just it could direct you to many of the good churches around that are fundamentally meeting these criteria. And I think, anyway, so I mean, that's how the booklet came into being. There's so much about why church is necessary. But I think one thing that's come up with COVID in the last year and a half is I think we've learned that gathering is essential. Yes. That you can't experience what the Bible describes, the fellowship of the saints and even fully participate in the means of grace on a screen. In Romans 1, I think it's interesting where Paul says to the Romans, he says, I'm eager to come preach the gospel to you. Well, he gave them the book of Romans. That's a really great thing. Best media yet. He didn't have Zoom, but he had, you know, he wrote this letter. He gave them the gospel, but there was no substitute for a face-to-face encounter. He writes in so many of his letters, you know, greeted each other with a holy kiss. And so there's a need to be a part of a community. And to be giving to that community, not just financially, but personally with your gifts and to loving and being loved. And even the face-to-face exposure to the proclamation of the word. I mean, you can read a Spurgeon sermon or you can listen to whoever your hero is online. But the face-to-face encounter, like Paul wanted to have with the Romans, is so important. And so it is essential. There are many people we would have who would, I mean, various situations. Some would be involved, kind of, they would go to church, but never commit, never join. They'd bounce from church to church and sometimes skip altogether. There were some churches in our area that really had no membership at all. And they hardly knew who was coming. I guess they probably knew who was giving. But there wasn't real shepherding going on. And I think, as germane to your concern in the podcast, there are some people who had had really bad experiences in the past with church. And so it was kind of like somebody who went through a horrible dating relationship and says, I'm just going to be single for the rest of my life. That they wonder, is there any church where I will be cared for? You know, they've either been domineering, abusive, bullying leaders, and they're tempted to give up on church altogether. And part of what I would argue personally and in the booklet is that there are faithful churches. None is perfect. There are faithful churches with faithful shepherds that are proclaiming the gospel. And sometimes you have to look around, but they're out there. But also here are criteria. And some people make choices unwisely upon secondary matters instead of looking for what the Bible says is most important. Yeah. You sort of touched on this a little bit ago in your answer. And you talk about this, I think, in the second chapter or something. And I'm not trying to get you to give the book away because I want to put this link in the show notes so people can go get it. But you talk a little bit about, like, what are some of the wrong directions? I don't know if pitfalls is the right word to use, but wrong directions people can make in searching for a church. I think this is good wisdom because, you know, before you start going out and looking for a church, it's good to know what you should be looking for. Right. And so first you're saying negatively. I've already mentioned that, you know, I like a certain musical style in worship. And. I insist upon it being biblically sound, but there may be music that would not be my favorite, but it's still biblically sound. And I might be better off if the church fits the biblical criteria for what really matters, going to a place where the music isn't exactly what I love, because it's not the most important thing. I hear some people looking for a church where they have programs that are important to them. And so they've got to have a certain kind of youth program or certain kind of kids program or whatever categories find yourself fitting into. I'm not opposed to those programs. I would just say it's secondary or tertiary. That the Bible doesn't command that you have an Awana program or a big youth group. And so I'm not even saying it's not a factor at all. I would just say that it comes way below other things. I've seen people leave what I think is a really solid church, you know, that really meets the biblical criteria for a church, which is horribly weak in their preaching and their theology. But they happen to have the program that kids like. And I think that would be unwise and in the long run, spiritually detrimental. Sometimes it's age group where I want lots of families with kids my age. And, you know, someone who is pastoring a small to medium sized church for many years and frustrating because you'd get a couple of families. And a certain age group where you had a gap. And then they leave because they wanted more families like them. I thought, well, if you just stay, we might attract some more and fill in that gap. So those are a few of the factors that, you know, sometimes it's how funny the pastor is. Other factors that are maybe just based upon certain feelings they have. Rather than looking seriously at what the Bible says. And then when trouble occurs later, whatever the trouble may be, when they're not being fed to the word or the other issues going on or when they have a counseling emergency and they realize there's no one in the church who can be there to help guide them through their problems. Those can be some of the consequences of an unwise choice in terms of choosing a church. Do you think, this may be getting into the weeds of opinion. And so if you don't want to answer this, fine. But do you think that maybe the church as a whole, maybe the evangelical church culture has done that to itself? Sure. I mean, yeah, we create mega churches and mega stars. I mean, I don't think there's a biblical limitation on how big your church should be. But I think that it's not just the seeker sensitive, ultra compromising mega church. It can even be, there's a lot of consumerism in many churches where, and then people look upon churches, consumers rather than. Committing, I imagine if you look at previous generations, people hung in there longer. Although sometimes, that's again, that's one thing I address in the booklet is how do you know where to leave? Sometimes I talked to someone this past week that was in a church where his theology shifted in a more reformed direction in a church that was not reformed. He said they were wonderful people, but if he were to stay, he would make, you know, might cause them problems. And so how do you know when you need to go? And a lot of it is a bit subjective. There's not an exact at this point. I mean, so maybe it's just clear. Yeah, you need to go find something else. But there are lots of subjective challenges in terms of how important you make different factors. A common thing I find that people face is, okay, I've got a church that's a half mile from my house. That's maybe a six out of 10 in my criteria. And there's one 40 minutes away. That's a nine out of 10. And what do I do? And there are strong arguments to be made on both sides that you can probably, it's easier to invite your neighbors to a church that they can get to in five or 10 minutes instead of driving an hour to get there. So, yeah, it's complicated sometimes. Yeah, I went through this process back six years ago when we left Idaho and came back to North Carolina. And I was searching for a church. And in chapter four, you talk about hard questions to ask when choosing the church and specifically number two about extra biblical preferences. And it was extremely hard for me and my wife. You know, we were on staff at a church and now we're just coming as lay people and that transition. And we probably, I mean, in a couple of month period, we went to 15, 10 to 15 different churches. Just, okay, is this going to be good for us? Is this not going to be good for us? And we would go home and we would talk about it. We would pray about it. Eventually, we landed at a great church in Kannapolis that really helped us grow and allow us some healing during our time of growing. But how should we view these in the realm of importance when it comes to deciding on a church family to join? How do we really understand which one is primary, secondary, tertiary when it comes to this? I mean, you know, I would rather speak positively where, I mean, you know, Paul says in Galatians 1, if someone's preaching to the gospel is anathema. And so, is this a church which is faithfully proclaiming the word? 2 Timothy 4, preach the word in season and out of season. I have a very strong preference for a normal diet of consecutive expository preaching. But there are other ways of preaching the word faithfully. Spurgeon didn't do that. And if he was down the road, I might go hear him. But generally speaking, is the word being faithfully proclaimed? I think also a gospel-centeredness, which would be not only in the preaching, but in the whole approach. I think I'd say in the book, just like if you walk into the kitchen when somebody's been baking bread and it smells like bread, then you want to come into a church and it smells like the gospel. That it's a place, I mean, and I'm not saying you don't take obedience seriously, but this is a place where the gospel permeates everything they do. It's a place of grace. And you see in the New Testament, like in the book of Galatians, when they slipped into legalism and Colossians, there are warnings about that. And so is this a place where there's a balance between the expectations to obey God, but also a place full of grace in that we are standing before God is solely based upon the accomplishment of Christ, having a righteousness not of our own achieved by keeping somebody's rules, but the righteousness that has come from God through faith in Christ, Philippians 3.9. I think a huge factor would be elders who really shepherd the sheep. First Peter 5 in an act, you know, shepherd the flock of God. They keep watch over your souls. Hebrews 13.17, you think of the negative of the Ezekiel 34 of the false shepherds who viewed the church as their own personal possession and were eating the sheep instead of feeding the sheep and caring for the sheep. And so my personal conviction would be, one would be that in the New Testament, it seems there's a plurality of elders rather than there being a concentration of power in one person. Like in Acts 14.23, they appointed elders, plural, in every church. And I think there's a real danger when a church becomes a monument to a man and he becomes too central and too important. Yesterday, I actually preached at chapel at RTS from John 3, where John the Baptist is saying, he must increase, I must decrease. That the friend of the bridegroom, his joy is bringing the groom and the bride together. And Calvin has a lovely section on that where he talks about how there's some ministers who would steal the bride for themselves. And, you know, the church becomes about the senior pastor and loyalty to him rather than loyalty to Christ. So you're looking for a place where Christ is exalted. And then since you've talked about biblical counseling, you know, I, as a pastor and elder in a church for decades now, tremble when I read Ezekiel 34, the judgment upon shepherds who were neglecting the sheep. I take seriously Hebrews 13.17. One day I will give account to God that you want to be in a church where the shepherds are aware of all the sheep. And there are different ways churches do that. Like in our church, we've divided the flock among five elders and each of us is responsible. You know, you should be able to ask the one who's overseeing that part of the flock, how is each of those families doing? And it's a church where if someone is in trouble, you know, be it spiritual trouble, there's been adultery, there's been abuse, there's been conflict, there's been bereavement. You know, that they're not just trying to build a big organization with lots of nickels and noses, but they're caring for the sheep in a biblical way. You want worship, which is about Christ. It's a God-centered worship, not a man-centered worship. And so all these factors, positively, that's what to look for. And then some of the things people look for, think, well, that building is kind of crummy looking. You know, the church I was in in Escondido, California, we've got a, we would now be like a 60, 70-year-old building that used to be owned by the Salvation Army. It was not a beautiful building. But hopefully we were preaching a beautiful gospel and had beautiful people who loved the Lord there. That would be the beauty of the church, not. And I remember having people visit saying, well, your building's ugly. And I don't disagree. But that's not what's the big factor biblically. Yeah, you go through there. I don't remember what chapter it is, but you actually, I've used this probably the most, have most of my highlights in this section where I think that's what you were just talking about, the 10 questions to sort of guide of what to look for. And I think this is one of the things that I did love about the book. And for those that's listening and says, well, I already know this guy teaches at Reformed Theological Seminary. He must be, you know, a Calvinist. I'm not going to get this book because he's probably going to tell me to go find the Reformed Church. And I think one of the great things about the book is you really put it in a way to say, listen, I'm not saying that you have to find exactly what I like. But you need to find out where you are and what's important to you and ask these questions on what is serious to you. But here's one of the things that I have found with sort of the ones, the group that James and I are talking to, is that when we get to asking those questions, like you were just saying, is the Bible faithfully preached week after week? I mean, that's very key. But somebody would then come back to me and say, how do I know if the Bible is being preached week after week? You know, after being 10 years in a place where I just got this guy's opinion every Sunday, I don't know where I'm at. I don't know if there's a quick answer to that, but what would you say to something like that? Yeah. I mean, you raised a couple of things. But, you know, I remember when the Lord saved me and I got into a church, which was actually back in the 70s, doing consecutive expository preaching. I remember early on, even in my mid to late teens, hearing certain men speak. And as I had my Bible open, it was like they were shedding light on what was kind of blurry and it made it clear to me. And so it wasn't like, wow, this guy must be brilliant because I have no idea where he just got that. If I knew Greek and Hebrew, I could see that in the Bible. But instead it was, yes, that guy's, that's obviously what it means. I didn't understand that before. But now that's what a good teacher does, preacher does. It's like he's bringing out the meaning of the passage where like a Berean, I'm looking at the text and saying, yes, that is what that passage is saying. That's what God is saying to me and even going beyond that. And here's what I need to believe, how I need to think, what I need to do based upon what the Bible says. And here's how it all ties into redemption. Not just isolated bits, but the big story of the Bible is redemption, which we live out sometimes, you know, the implication of our redemption through obedience. But I'm looking for those things. I mean, I actually have, when I teach a preaching class, I have four things I look for in a sermon that I'm teaching my students. I can rattle through those, that one would be a faithful exposition of the text in that it, you know, I'm looking, I'm hearing what he says, and that's what's in there. Another would be that it points to the gospel. J. Adams made a statement, you should never preach a sermon in a Christian church that would be acceptable in the synagogue, or I would say a Roman Catholic church, that Jesus in 24, it says he went through the entire Old Testament and showed how it points to him. And I don't think the only content of a sermon should be redemption, but every sermon should be pointing back how it relates to the gospel, which is the central theme of scripture, along with expounding the text, then you want to be grounded in good theology, you know, in the context of redemption, but also theologically. And in the booklet, I realized they're going to, you know, like we differ. Some people are going to be more reformed or less reformed. Some people are going to be in eschatology in different places. But as to what you believe the Bible teaches, and hopefully on the central things, we could agree, Trinity, justification, by faith, we're saved by grace alone, by faith alone, by faith alone, by faith alone, by faith alone. The Bible alone is our authority, the glory of God alone, that you see that permeating it. And then the last would be that the Bible is actually applied, that it's not just a lesson intellectually, but Paul said that the scripture has been given for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training, and righteousness, that how is my life changed by what I hear? And so preaching that does those things, I actually use the analogy like it's a stool, and there are four legs. And if you chop one leg off, it's going to be unbalanced. And so expounding the word, explaining the word, pointing to Christ, grounded in sound theology, faithful application that comes from the word would be among the criteria. And I would also say that a faithful pastor who's an ordinary pastor may do more good for your soul than the dazzling person who is funny and attracts thousands of people. Most of the people whom God is using are the faithful pastors in ordinary churches. And part of it also gets back to the shepherding is that you can be in the megachurch, you're never going to get to know the celebrity pastor. But there needs, I think part of the connection in shepherding is you're connected to your elders, where there are, it could be the preaching pastor, it could be the other elders, where there's a relationship between the shepherds and the sheep. So it's not just a preaching performance. And a megachurch and a large church, a well-organized one can divide the sheep among the elders so the shepherding takes place, but it can be more difficult. Somehow the shepherding needs to take place along with the preaching of the word. Yeah, that's excellent. Last question we're going to ask you, and we know you're a busy man, we don't want to take too much of your time. But if someone were listening today and had been significantly hurt in the church, specifically through sexual or spiritual abuse or even legalism and just the oppressive legalist that can happen in church, what would be some practical wisdom, sort of some first steps that you would give them to get back involved in church? How could they get back into that point? Yeah, I've mentioned Ezekiel 34. I really feel like I have to turn there in response to a question like that, because the Lord is prophesying against the false shepherds of Israel. I want to make it clear that you've spoken generally. So I'm not trying to say this particular church is guilty of this or that. But I will also say that I've counseled cases and overseen counseling cases where you have a girl who, when she was 16, had a pastor or a youth pastor molest her sexually in a church that claimed to be faithful. And when she tried to expose it, it was covered up. And they were more concerned about protecting the image of the institution than they were protecting her. And, you know, this is, I think, what the Lord is talking about when he's complaining. They were scattered for lack of a shepherd. They became food for every beast in the field and were scattered. And there are cases where people have been hurt, where the institution or the leader has been protected and the sheep have not been protected. There are cases where there have been leaders who have said, you've clothed yourself on the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. And they've used it as a platform to, for their own glory and even their own wealth and not for the glory of Christ. So people have been so badly hurt. But then the Lord says, behold, I myself will search for my sheep and seek them out. And he even declares that he would send faithful shepherds. That I will deliver my flock. I will set over them one shepherd, my servant David. He will feed them. He will feed them himself. He will be their shepherd. And so just because there are pastors in church cultures which have failed to adequately emphasize the gospel, they've strained at gnats and swallowed camels. You know, they've admonished you or disciplined you over one issue while they themselves were doing worse things. You know, people have been burned. People have been hurt. You know, gossip and all the different things that go on. And so God has sent his son as the true and faithful shepherd. And he has not, you know, he's given his life for his sheep instead of eating his sheep. But he's also, there are faithful shepherds he has appointed. Paul tells the Ephesian elders in Acts that the Holy Spirit has appointed them as shepherds of the flock. And he admonishes them to shepherd the flock of God faithfully. Peter calls upon us as under shepherds, under the chief shepherd to care for the flock. And so there are faithful shepherds who preach the word, who love the sheep, who care for God's people. And the fact that there have been false shepherds, it goes back to the Old Testament with the false shepherds of Israel. It goes to the Pharisees in Jesus' day. But there is a true shepherd, ultimately, who is Christ. And he has appointed true shepherds. Now, I'll add that whatever church you go to, it's still going to be imperfect and disappointing sometimes. You know, there's still going to be sinners there. And the leaders are not going to be perfect. But I think as Jesus came not to be served, but to serve and to give himself as a ransom for many, that he has raised up shepherds who are Christ-like servants, infallible, weak men as we are. And this is part of the biblical standards of eldership, that they, you know, that they have to be above reproach and not love money and not pugnacious and that their families be in order. And, you know, all these matters that are vital. There are many churches where the pastor pretends to be that way and there's kind of a secret underbelly of a life that he's hiding that is inconsistent with that. But there are faithful men. I know many, many faithful men. I've worked with faithful men. I want to be a faithful man. And so there is hope and that Jesus, who is your shepherd, wants you to be in a church where his faithful under shepherds will care for you. And the point is not to give up on church. The point is to find a church with biblical shepherds who preach the word, who care for the sheep, who are humble. That's where the worship is not about performance. It's not about the pastor or the musicians. That it's about Christ. Lots of people say it's about Christ, but it really is about Christ. And, again, with some humility, you know, leaders who admit when they're wrong, leaders who care well for the flock. And so, and I used the analogy earlier that just because you had an abusive boyfriend doesn't mean there's not a man who would make a good husband someday. And just because you were in an abusive church doesn't mean there's not a faithful church where you can find joy. And I'll state personally, as I've been a pastor for many years, that we've often had people come who have been horribly burned. And it's almost like if you adopted a pet, a dog that had been beaten by the previous owner. And when you came walking towards it, it would kind of shrink back like, oh, no, what's he going to do to me? And I've had people who would come to us and they'd been burned before. And instead of joining in a month or two months, they might come for a year because they really want to know, can I really trust you? You know, am I going to think you're okay? And then three or four months in or a year in something horrible is going to happen and I'm going to regret ever having walked in the door. So I think we ought to be very, you know, as leaders, we ought to be very patient just to say, we really want either our church or some other faithful church to become a home for you. And we understand you've been hurt. We want to let you get to know us. And then, you know, part of the reason I wrote the booklet is I would I want to help people choose a church not based upon the impressive personality of some important human leader, but a church which faithfully exalts Christ and represents Christ. That's that was great. I think that lasts a little bit. I mean, that was I could I'm already I got people in my mind already that I know that that just that helped. That was that was really good. Thank you, Jim, so much for being with us. James, you got any any closing comments? Man, I'm just glad that you were here with us. We'd love to have you on again to talk through some more things. And I'm only about an hour away from Charlotte. So if you ever want to get lunch together, I'd love to meet up one time. If you could make some time for me. John comes in every once in a while. Maybe we can all get together sometime. It'd be great. Yeah, well, send me an email and set it up. I tell my students, by the way, I don't want to necessarily the podcast to call me for lunch. Personally. Yeah, sorry. But I'm a good responder and not a great initiator. And so if you say I want to come and hang out and talk about this, I'd be willing to do that. But again, I don't really need a thousand lunch invitations. Yeah, that's great. Just for me and John. Great. Let's do it. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jeff, for being with us today. And we appreciate it. We pray that this is helpful for some. And I know it's going to be beneficial for many. And I think that's all we got today. James, until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Amen. Amen. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFPNetwork.org. To find more podcasts like this one, resources and meetups to encourage you on your journey. Thank you. Thank you.

Auto-generated transcript · 8,249 words. May contain errors.