190. Alex Macfarland: Apologetics, Legalism, and Charlie Kirk

Welcome back to the 4 Freedom Podcast. Brett, it feels like it's been a couple of weeks since we've recorded and been together on the podcast with the interview with Eric that's come out over the last couple of days. That has been great and been a great engagement. People coming together and enjoying that and listening to that. But it's put a pause on me and you recording because of that content that we had recorded a while back. And excited to be able to get back here together. You excited about the episode today. We'll get to that in just a minute. But your crusade has ended and things are back to somewhat normal life. How is the life of Brett Martin doing? Man, things are going good. I am excited about the episode today. Like you said, a lot of people, you're right about the engagement from Erica Pacey. A lot of people say, man, I heard him when I was at house or I went to his college or I went to his church and I was saw him transition out. And so a lot of people know about Erica Pacey and are really interested to hear the rest of his story. But as far as our crusade, man, things were great. I mean, this was over a year of planning every single month. You know, just doing this and lining up the bands and the audio video stuff and written the equipment and getting the chairs and getting the venue. And we had our hiccups. The day we decided to go in and start getting the thing ready, the city decided they were going to remodel and repaint. And we were like, we've had this venue rented for a year. Why did you come in here two weeks before we were going to get started? And that put us the day before getting the thing ready. And we let the audio guy come in and put tape down all of his wires. And then they came in the auditorium to scrape and paint and they pulled up every single wire he taped down. He had to come in the Sunday morning of the crusade and take down all his wires again. But, man, it was a great response. The first that auditorium holds 450, just the chairs in it. Of course, we added chairs to it. And I would say the first three nights we had anywhere from four to five hundred on the property. But the last night, the youth night on Wednesday night, man, we had we probably had seven or eight hundred in the building because we had three overflow rooms. All three overflow rooms were full. We had the auditorium packed out with seats down front, folding chairs down the aisles, people standing in the back. It was a great response. It was a great revival. So we had 17 saved and it was just that the bands, we did great and it was good worship. Alex McFarlane did a great job preaching. And, man, it was just I couldn't have asked for a better turnout. That's awesome. And, you know, he's shorter than I than I imagined. I've heard him many times, but I just expected to be taller when I saw like pictures of him. He was like this little short little gremlin almost looking guy. He's a short guy. Yeah, I wasn't expecting him to be that short. So, yeah, that's great to hear. Praise the Lord for those decisions and just the contacts that you guys have made and be able to sort those out to the churches in those areas. And hopefully we'll see some some great move of the Lord right now. And so it's been a good thing. If you haven't went and checked out our newest product for our For Freedom Cigar line, we have added a coffee and soap bundle on our website there at 69 Cigars. And it's a great time to be able to support some mission organization. This is helping church planters in Nicaragua through the purchase of the coffee and then a new church, a new startup of soap there in Tennessee. And just a great lineup for you as holidays are coming up looking for good gift ideas. This is a great way to support our ministry, but also have a great gift and high quality things for your family. And so we'd love for you to go and check that out. We're excited about that and what the Lord is doing through that ministry and the opportunity that we have. Brett, got a couple of things coming up in a couple of weeks, man. It's right around the corner. Israel, tell us a little bit about the Israel trip. Well, I'll tell you what, if you want to go on the Israel trip, the door's still open. The window's still open, but it's not going to be open very much longer. You really need to get on top of things. The dates for our Israel trip is January 30th through February 7th, 2026. And you go to go-yael.com forward slash trips forward slash 5509 hyphen Jan hyphen 2026 forward slash. If you get all that. But that is the website. It's also going to be on the link. It's going to be on our website and in the show notes. But check it out. I think the password is J-A-N-26 is the password. But, man, we are going all over the nation of Israel. It is going to be a great opportunity for you to come see the Holy Land. Trips are the tours are there now. It's safe. It's open. It's ready. We're going to land in Tel Aviv. And then we're going to go to Tiberias and stay a couple nights. We might stay a night in Nazareth. We're going to stay in Jerusalem. You're going to see all kind of sites from Caesarea Philippi to Caesarea Maritime to standing on the Temple Mount, standing on the Mount of Olives, looking down in the Kidron Valley, walking into the empty tomb of Jesus, floating in the Dead Sea. You're going to see all. And listen, James, we're going to some places that me and you haven't been before. These are going to be new places for us. We said, look, here are some things that we want to go to. And I'm excited about seeing things we haven't been to yet. And it's going to be a great opportunity. Jump on it now. Now's the time to check it out if you want to go. Absolutely. It's going to be a great time. We want you to go. I was actually we did an ordination this last week and the guy was asking me about it. And I told him, I said, when I say the Bible comes from black and white to full color, I said it just it's one of those. Not it's not an understatement. It truly is. You read your Bible different. You interact with scripture different. And it's a life changing event. So hopefully you can mark your calendars and go with us January 30th to February 7th. And it'll be a great time. Brett, you have a special guest this past Sunday at your church who joined you in your service this past week. We had Nathan, his testimony and things were, man, it was it was great. It was awesome. Hearing him speak after what he went through, man, the Holy Spirit got a hold of the service. There were people there in the service. It was a packed house. These people had prayed for Nathan and they got to hear him speak and hear him talk about his journey and what he's been through. Man, it was a tremendous blessing. We had a singing group Sunday morning. And man, I just just just time to just hang out with Nathan and catch up with him and just, you know, have him sit on my back porch. And let's just talk about the Bible and talk about what the Lord's done and the miracle that's that has been in his life. And then drive him to the drive him to the airport the next morning. It was just a great time. That's awesome. Glad you got to do that. And the guy we ordained was actually one of the guys that Nathan had discipled for many years at the Hope Church Asheville. And now he started a church there in Morganton, Nebo area called Immersion Church. And so Michael was able to be a part of that. We ordained him and just a great time we have there hanging out with some of his church members and handing out a couple of good four freedom sticks. And so it was a great time there. But today, Brett, you did an interview. This is a solo interview. It's your first, I think your first solo interview that you did. The time with just our schedules, we weren't able to get together and do it. And so you just pulled out a microphone and said, hey, Alex, let's let's do a quick interview together. And you talk through apologetics. You talk through legalism. And then you got to be able to talk through the conversation with Charlie Kirk and be able to talk through what that was like with Alex's interaction with Charlie Kirk. Fresh on sort of what had happened. Your crusade was right around just a couple of weeks ago when the Charlie Kirk incident happened. And we haven't recorded really in person since then. And we'll probably hear in the next week or so do something about that. Just, you know, times have settled down. Things are moved on a little bit just to be able to talk through the impact that Charlie Kirk has had on our life and just be able to talk through a little bit of that. But excited about the interview today. Anything you want to say before we jump into the interview? I just want to say, you know, it was such a privilege to meet Alex, to be with him for a week, to talk to him. And with his schedule, you're always on Alex time. I mean, he's got that radio show that he's got to do at the same time every day. And so that's one of the reasons why me and you couldn't get together on interviewing him. But, man, his mind is just sharp as a tack. The way he just brings up stuff from that Rolodex in his head, it just amazes me. I wish I could do that. But it was a great conversation. And I'm excited to share it with you all. Absolutely. Well, we hope you enjoy this interview with Brett and Alex. And we hope you enjoy the content. And as always, if you like it, share it. And leave us a rating and review. And we'll jump right into it today. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Let grace begin. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. All right, Alex, thanks for being with us today. Thank you for taking out of your schedule. I know we're in the middle of a crusade right now. But if you could just give our audience just a little bit of background on who you are and what it is that you do. Well, thank you, Brett. It's great to be with you. And thank you for being willing to record me. And I want to say a big thank you for working hard on the crusade. I think you are the crusade director, aren't you? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah. It's been great. We're here in Carthage, Mississippi. I've got a longtime friend here, Stephen Evans at First Baptist. And when we began to pray about this and plan about this, I was just very humbled. A lot of churches have come together. I know you're a big part of that. And people are coming out and hearing the gospel and responding. But, Brett, I grew up in North Carolina. I told the kids over at Sebastopol School today that I went to summer school to graduate high school rather than get up and give a speech. And that is true. When I went to my 25th high school reunion, seriously, because in Greensboro, we've been in the paper right many times. We've done youth events and rented the Coliseum. So I go to my 25th high school reunion, and people know that I became an evangelist and apologetics. And they were like, who are you and what have you done with Alex McFarlane? I'll never forget a guy who knew me from high school. I was very shy. He said, what happened to you? And I said, well, Jesus happened to me. And so we do apologetics. I've, you know, preaching, publishing events, camps. But when I was 21, I found Christ, and I'm not over it yet. Amen. Amen. Well, you know, anyone that has spent any amount of time with you knows your heart, knows you have a heart for apologetics. I heard you say in Sebastopol that you've written 21 books. And the books, they're from 100 Bible and Answer Questions, 10 Most Common Objections to Christianity. You mentioned one about Revelations last night, which I can't wait to get my hands on. But so with that in mind, I want to ask you, what do you see is the biggest apologetics challenge facing believers today? Wow. Well, thanks for devoting some time to this. I really think that the biggest apologetics issue is some variant of what's called the problem of evil or the problem of pain and suffering. It's like, okay, if God loves me, then why am I hurting? If God is so good, why is my life a wreck? Why is there, you know, cancer, violence, assassinations like Charlie Kirk? The world seems irreparably broken. Why? If God could fix it, why doesn't God fix it? That is called the problem of evil, the problem of pain and suffering. Now, I think Christianity has a very fully orbed answer to that. In fact, really only the biblical worldview actually can answer it. But, Brett, in interviewing literally hundreds of people, the Ten Most Common Objections book was based on interviews with about 200 college students. Then I did a follow-up book called The God You Thought You Knew, exposing ten common myths about Christianity. 21 questions your kids will ask about God. I've interviewed a lot of people going through spiritual struggles, and I really do think that's the number one issue, the problem of pain. Amen. You know, apologetics is kind of everywhere right now. Past couple days, we've mentioned a lot about Frank Turek because he was at Charlie Kirk's funeral, which, by the way, just completely knocked it out of the park, sharing the gospel. When he mentioned that Charlie's not in heaven because he sacrificed himself for Jesus, but it's because, you know, his Savior sacrificed himself for Charlie Kirk. I thought that was great. Frank Turek is another apologetics guy that I follow, I listen to you, Stuart Connectely, these guys. My next question is, how can the average church member be equipped to defend their faith in everyday conversations? Oh, great question. And listen, I commend you. I have so much respect for you, Brett, being a worldviewish pastor, and we need that. And you're a shepherd of a flock, and you preach the Word so faithfully, and you bring in apologetics, which is the evidence. And let me just—I want to get to your question, but let me just say apologetics is not apologizing. It's not saying, oh, I'm sorry, you know, please like me anyway, I'm a Christian, no. But like in verses like 1 Peter 3.15, it says, be ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks a reason for the hope that you have. So when the word apologia, it means a defense. In other words, if somebody says, well, how do we know God is real? Or how do we know that the Bible is true? Or how do we know Jesus really rose from the dead? Or why is there pain and suffering? Is not God going to fix this broken world? Apologetics is giving an answer on why we should believe in Jesus. Now, for me, Brett, I was a college student. I got saved at age 21. I knew my buddies were lost. And I just began to read my Bible, and I was in my own awkward way. It was pretty clunky and not pretty. But I was trying to get my buddies saved. They were lost. And they had some questions, so I went to a Christian bookstore. I'd never been to a Christian bookstore that I recall. And I asked the guy, I said, hey, are there any books on how to answer really hard questions? Okay, I could have bought heresy, and I would not have known the difference. I mean, I knew nothing. But in The Sovereignty of God, the man handed me two books, and I bought these books. More Than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell and Evidence That Demands a Verdict. And I began to read, and what just kind of really gripped me, I'm 21. I've been a Christian less than a week, actually. But there's all this evidence. Oh, my goodness. History, archaeology, the manuscripts of the Bible have been preserved. Some of the most brilliant people throughout history have looked at the evidence and become Christ followers. So, folks, what I would say to Brett's question, you can get into being a defender of the faith, first of all, by knowing God's Word and reading the Bible. And you must, if you're going to be a representative for the gospel, and we're all called to do this, first of all, you need to make sure that you are saved. I joined the church when I was 13. Filled out a card. That's what the man in Sunday school told me to do. I joined the church when I was 13. I found Jesus when I was 21. Christianity goes a lot better when you're a Christian. I found that out, you know. Suddenly, the Bible was really interesting. And so, number one, folks, make sure that there's been that moment when you put your faith in Jesus and we're saved. Then read the Bible. I love to recommend that people read the Gospel of Mark. It's very short, just 16 chapters. I mean, you could literally read the Gospel of Mark in 30 to 45 minutes. Read the Gospel of John, 21 chapters. But then, I'll tell you another really good one is the book of Colossians. Colossians is a New Testament book, four little chapters. I mean, you literally could read Colossians in 15 minutes. And it is so power-packed with truth about the Lord Jesus. And I really think the first step to becoming—do this, folks—present, explain, defend. You could present the Gospel. You could explain the Gospel. And if need be, even defend the Gospel. Step one is to really be very familiar with the Bible itself. Now, there's a lot more of books and authors that I want to speak of. But, Brett, don't you agree? Step one to being a thriving disciple is that you've got to be in the Word. Absolutely. You definitely have to have a love for the Word of God. You've got to be in the Word of God because faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Now, it's interesting that we're talking about this, and I was just out in my truck listening to your and Stephen's program in the parking lot, and today was Apologetics Day. You're answering questions. I thought that was really neat. I want to tell you a little bit about our podcast. Our podcast is called the For Freedom Podcast, and it exists to bring the message of Galatians 5.1 to those in the body of Christ who've been trapped in legalism. Me and my co-host, we have a fundamentalist background, and so we address a lot of abuse and things like that. We want to expose legalism. We want to encourage people to grow in God's grace. And, you know, for freedom, Christ has set us free. So my question is, in our culture today, there's a word that's thrown around, and it's this word freedom. It gets used in many different ways. And from a biblical standpoint, how would you define true freedom? Great question. Great question. And let me say, I believe legalism has probably driven away more people from church than all the philosophers combined, really. And I believe in discipleship and holiness and living for Jesus, but not legalism, because legalism is performance-based. And really, the church where I got saved back in North Carolina, although I didn't know the word, Brett, but it tended toward legalism. You know, and, you know, when they knew that I had the Beach Boys on my cassette player in my car, the pastor gave me a talking to. But I was praying about things. And it sounds so harmless now, oh my goodness. But it was the late 80s. I was a brand-new believer. And I'm very compliant, very respectful of authority. But at the same time, I really prayed about it. And I knew that some of the great art, literature, and music, I could acknowledge the beauty in Norman Rockwell's paintings. I could acknowledge the artistry in the writings of Shakespeare. And it wasn't necessarily Christian, but it did come from a worldview that honored truth and beauty. And let me just say this for a moment, and then I want to get to, you know, talking about how our freedom works in Christ. One of the great things about the Church is, really from the Middle Ages up through the Reformation, and certainly colonial America, that the Church was the oasis of learning, scholarship, and the arts. In fact, all right, if you've ever seen on a stage, folks, what's called a proscenium arch. There's like a rounded arch above the stage. And then there's, you know, the stage comes out a foot beyond that arch. That came out of the Church because in the Middle Ages were what were called morality plays. And they weren't just about morals, but they were Bible stories. Joseph and his brothers in the coat of many colors, the story of Esther in the Old Testament, the story of Ruth and Boaz. And it was in the Church that really, because not everybody could even read, but in the Middle Ages, and really prior to that, the theater emerged as a place to act out Bible stories and to tell non-readers about Bible stories. And they were called morality plays. And so the Church was an enclave of the arts. And, oh my goodness, classical music. Bach, you know, would write, S-D-G, Solo Deo Gloria, for the glory of God alone. All of the great classical music. Here's one that will blow people's minds. Canon in D by Johann Pachelbel. Pachelbel's Canon. I guarantee every wedding you've done, or almost, they play Canon in D. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Do you know what that was? That was a one-time piece to play while they took up offering. Pachelbel was a chorister at a church. He was a choir director. He wrote a throwaway, one-and-done instrumental, just to play while they took up offering one Sunday. Isn't it amazing? By the way, 25 years ago, when we entered the 21st century, there was a big thing in, I actually think it might have been Wired magazine, but it was like the hundred most important pieces of art, literature, and music of the last thousand years. Canon in D was listed as one of the most culturally significant pieces of music of the last thousand years. And it was actually, at the time of its composition, not viewed as anything all that special, and yet it's one of the most cherished pieces of music the world over. Handel's Messiah, the Hallelujah Chorus, the sealing of the Sistine Chapel, Michelangelo's David, Pilgrim's Progress. All right, what am I saying here? The church was the oasis of truth, goodness, and beauty, the arts. The church absolutely was the enclave of learning and literacy. In colonial America, now I'm going to get to the question of legalism here in a minute, but I've got to say something, folks. In colonial America, all the schools came out of the church. Now, there was a law called the Old Deluder Satan Law. Now, you say, what does that mean? Okay, there was a law that children must be taught to read. Why? So they could read the Bible and thus escape the clutches of that Old Deluder Satan. Now, why has the church for 20 centuries been at the forefront of literacy, literacy, learning, the arts, charity, benevolence, hospitals. If you look at America, and I could talk about the rest of the world, all over, everything east of the Mississippi, public school systems around 1900 were basically wagon routes to the churches. churches. For instance, in my home state of North Carolina, the North Carolina public school system 125 years ago were the church schools that were teaching black and white, farm kids, all the children, teaching them to read. Why? So they could know their creator, Jesus Christ. Now, I went off on that rabbit trail, Brett, because we in the church don't want to make the mistake of squelching the life of the mind and learning. And I know we're not supposed to look at or imbibe ungodly stuff. Of course, there's plenty of filth on the internet. We're not supposed to go there. There's music that is just dehumanizing. But, really, when the world became increasingly dark in the Middle Ages, the light of learning and truth was found in the church as we read God's word. And I think it's got to be that way again. Look, salvation is putting your faith in Jesus. But really, there is the life of the disciple. And we Christians are, we are to be the conscience of the culture. And I really also think, frankly, we are the, not only the heart and the redemption of the culture, but we are the intellect of the culture as well. It's happened before, it can happen again. And I think the church must be calling people to truth and to the stewardship of the mind. Amen. Amen. I agree with you. I'd like to shift gears for just a minute here because as I told my church a couple Sundays ago that something has happened in our country that has kind of fundamentally changed things for Christians. And that is the assassination and the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk. And I know that just recently you had a speaking engagement with him just a few weeks before he passed. And so, how did you first come to know Charlie personally, professionally? Can you walk us through how your paths cross and what your first impressions were of him? Well, thanks. He was a great brother in the Lord and yes, he was a friend and a colleague. I began to hear, I don't know, nine, ten years ago about this thing, Turning Point USA. And, you know, I'm a conservative politically. I'm a Christian. But I care about America and I'm a real constitutionalist. And, you know, I really, one of the things I teach about in my political science classes, I've taught at a number of universities and been adjunct at places like Liberty University, North Greenville University, Karis Bible College, a number of schools where I've taught. I care about the Constitution. Charlie Kirk used to say this and I thoroughly agree. The first, most important thing in life is to tell people about Jesus. The second, most important thing in life is to keep it legal that we can do the first, most important thing. So, I care about America. And nine years ago, I guess, I began to hear about this organization that was Christian and conservative, TPUSA, Turning Point. And then, in November of 21, I got a call and Charlie wanted me to speak at East Tennessee State University in Kingsport, Tennessee, which I said, sure. And he said, give a talk about the Constitution, which I was happy to do. And he said, hey, I've got to warn you, there might be some protesters. I said, no worries, we've had that before and so I know how to, I think I know how to be a gentleman and do that. And then just over the last really five years, I mean, his stock has just gone vertical. We spoke in the summer of 24 for the teenagers whose parents were delegates at the RNC convention. The Republican convention was in Milwaukee and for two days, Charlie Kirk and I taught Biblical Worldview. And I'll tell you what impressed me because I was with him a lot. I mean, he was a political animal and he knew his knowledge of economics, the Constitution, just, he was highly, highly informed and conversant on so many topics. But, as we were in front of 275 teenagers, it was all about discipleship. And he was as good as any youth pastor I was ever with. And I was like, wow, man, this guy is for real. And he talked about on Friday night, cut off the phone, be with wife and family and don't cut that phone back again on until Sunday night or Monday morning. And I mean, he really, really meant that. In fact, Charlie would reprimand me. He said, you're on the phone too much. And it was convicting. This was a man that was utterly 1,000% committed to Jesus, committed to his spouse and family. And so, we began to book him for 2025. And it's funny, he came, we did a series called Conversations That Matter. And I'm just very grateful. We do seven youth camps a year, 1,200 kids, conferences. First Baptist Carthage is one of our supporting churches. churches. I'm really kind of a missionary. I'm one of their missionaries. But in the speaker series, I asked Charlie if he would come. He and I spoke at an event in October of last fall. We're backstage for a couple of hours. We pray together. And I said, please, may I have one day of your calendar in 2025? And he said, yes. He said, if Donald Trump wins, things are going to get really busy for me. He said, so call me on January 1st. I said, okay. So January 1st at 1230 p.m., I called him. And here's the kind of man he was. First of all, we said, okay, Saturday night, October 23rd. Then he said, well, how about Friday night, October 22nd? And he said, look, I've got to be home for my daughter's third birthday. How about Thursday night, August 21? I said, deal. We had people come from 17 states. And it was great. Charlie spoke. We did over an hour of Q&A. The funny thing, Brett, though, not funny, but just ironic. There were some protesters and we had 24 policemen on site. All right, I rented the largest venue in the Myrtle Beach area. Myrtle Beach is like Branson, Missouri. There are all these theaters. And we've had in Dinesh D'Souza and Frank Turek and E.W. Jackson and we've had in Gary Chapman who wrote The Five Love Languages, Lauren Green of Fox News, a lot of speakers, Jenna Ellis. I rented this theater. Our event was August 21. As early as June, people were calling, protesting, saying, Charlie Kirk is hateful, Charlie Kirk is a bigot. And the Alabama Theater called me. They were like, hey, we've rented you the theater in August. Who in the world is this guy? People are calling, threatening our... So we had, by the way, after Charlie was shot, we submitted our security cam footage to the FBI. People were from 17 states and yes, there were a couple of people that came from Utah. We gave our footage to the FBI. I don't know. Anyway, so Charlie comes. It was great. It was fantastic. He spoke. It was very inspiring. We love America. America is a gift from God. He got multiple standing ovations. But it was interesting. During the Q&A, Charlie said, look, we've got to defend our nation, pastors, parents, young people. If somebody shoots me and kills me or shoots Alex, that's just an occupational hazard. As a Christian, Christ laid down his life for us. We lay down our life for the gospel. And if something happens to me, we cannot be silent. Little did we know, none of us could have known, that about 13 to 14 days later, exactly what he alluded to happened to him. Brett, I'll tell you this. I'll throw it back to you. I was going on AFR Radio and Bert Harper and I were going on exploring the Word and I got news that Charlie had been shot. We opened the show with prayer and I got a text from a friend of the president, a friend of mine back in North Carolina who's pretty big in the Republican Party. And on Fox News it said he is in critical but stable condition. And I guess they didn't want to go live with this until they had notified his wife, but about 15 minutes before it was on the national airwaves, we had a text from the White House that Charlie Kirk had passed. And I'm on live radio and trying not to cry. And I was just thinking, two and a half weeks ago, I was with this guy all day. I mean, we prayed together. We shared the gospel with teenagers together. And, you know, there's this old saying, it goes way back in church history, that every believer at a moment's notice should be ready to preach, pray, or die. God forbid, heaven forbid, somebody could walk in your sanctuary, heaven forbid, somebody could walk in First Baptist Carthage, somebody could walk. one of our events, we had a bomb threat one time, had to evacuate the building. So we're living in a world where every Christian, I don't want to be morbid or anything, but the witness of the gospel, it is costly, and that cost just might be our lives. You know, when you think about Charlie and what he's done and what he did while he was here, there's a large shift of young conservatives growing in number, and a lot of that has to do with Charlie and his reach and what he was doing. And so I want to ask you, how do you see the role of Christian leaders, pastors, apologists in the wake of Charlie's passing? How should they engage culture, politics, true-seeking that honors the example that he put forth? Great, great question. And we should, I mean, you said he's a martyr. I thoroughly agree. He really is. And I just think that we need, for one thing, people are spiritually hungry, people are afraid, people are fearful. Let me give you two little vignettes. Our summer camps that we've done for 27 years now that have just grown and grown and grown. Just to tell you, if young people are spiritually hungry, the last camp we did was in August in upstate New Jersey, right on the New Jersey-New York line. It's a camp we've rented twice now called Shiloh Christian Camp can sleep 130. And we do all the fun camp stuff. We, you know, hike and roast marshmallows, but it's biblical worldview. Our camps, Brett, are, you know, pretty deep discipleship. So they called and they said, we have 20 teens. We said, we're full. And they said, well, can we bring tents? We'll sleep in tents. And I was like, let me ask. All right. So we were at 130 capacity and we had 20 more teens and their youth leaders that were willing to come. They didn't get in cabins or dorms. They slept in tents outdoors. It was August. It was okay. But I mean, kids are hungry. And so I think we need to maximize on that. But the other thing is this, though, that, yeah, it shows that the only tool in the toolkit of the angry, unbelieving world is really violence. I do think we have to pray and pray for the Holy Spirit to restrain evil. But the answer is really, and we have to be in it for the long haul, is that more and more people get converted to Christianity. By the way, let me say this. Even Richard Dawkins, he's an atheist, and he and I have emailed back and forth 20 years ago. I was trying to get him to debate a Christian. Richard Dawkins is certainly no friend of Christianity necessarily. But about a year ago, suddenly, the panic button went off in Great Britain that's becoming more and more Islamic. And he said it was Easter morning, and he said, now this is one of the world's preeminent atheists, and even Richard Dawkins said, I was used to hearing the church bells on Easter morning. And he said, it's Easter morning, and no one is going to church, but I'm hearing the squawk of the minarets of the Islamic five times a day called prayer. And he realized, he said, in the empty space created by the abandonment of Christianity, it's not just neutral, it's not just some sort of neutral secularism. What's come into that has become vicious, deadly secularism and vicious, oppressive Islam. Now, in the vacuum created by the retreat of Christianity, we've got drug overdoses and violence and suicide, the hopelessness of a life without any meaning or purpose or foundation. Secularism is cultural suicide. Or then, you've got the other extreme, the iron fist of Sharia law. And suddenly, last Easter, Richard Dawkins, arch-atheist, is saying, please, Christianity, come back. Because the two options, the two abyss before Britain in the aftermath of Christianity, either the iron fist of communism and secularism, the iron sword of Sharia, maybe Christianity that was a restraining force, maybe Christianity wasn't so bad either. But I've got to tell you this, we're in Georgia at one of our camps June of this year, Brett, and we share the gospel, we talk about biblical worldview, we do Q&A. And sometimes, the open forum Q&As can last two hours. It's really a blast. So all these high school seniors, I'm sitting on a stage with a couple of my colleagues, colleagues, 100 kids come forward, and it's free time. You can go play ping pong, go eat ice cream, free time. And yet, you know, three-fourths of the camp wants to come and hang around. And this girl raised her hand. She goes, I said, yes, do you have a question? She goes, I'm afraid. And I said, afraid of what? She goes, I don't know, just I'm afraid. And like, I'm watching all these kids kind of nod in agreement. I said, how many, you're like anxious, you're just kind of like paranoid. It was like, all these kids. Now, what am I saying? Well, the Bible says perfect love casts out fear. But I will say on the, yeah, 30 and younger, middle schoolers that are just very alert to young adults, there's just this fear. They can't quite put their finger on it. Well, but they somehow instinctively understand that we're a culture that's lost its way. Now, we, the church, we can tell people about the solid foundation and the security that we have in Christ. but there is just this fear about life. The other thing is this, and this is encouraging. Guess what the number one question that we get from young men is? And we can thank Charlie for part of this. And, and Brett, I was a youth pastor for 11 years. I've been doing all this apologetics for 25 or 7 years. I've gotten all kind of questions. Where did the Bible come from? If God made everything who made God? You know, guess what question we're getting? How can I find a good wife? All, summer of 24, all through the summer of 25, and we keep volumes of data. We have surveys of more than a quarter million teens in the last quarter century. Okay. boys, teenagers, high schoolers, young 20-somethings. I got this question two days ago. I was here with Stephen Evans and a young man on our website. They're like, they, they, they somehow want the family that they never had growing up. They, they know a godly woman is a good thing. the number one question in the last 12 months that we're getting from males is, how, what do I look for in a wife and how can I find a wife? Now, I'm very blessed. I have a wife named Angie. We've been married for 36 years. And I talk a lot about Angie and a guy, I was at one of our camps and he, he was a counselor and he was a college student. He said, how did you find Angie and how did you all succeed? And I don't mean to get us off track, but my point is in churches and in our discipleship and pastors, I think we need to affirm and champion marriage. Whoso findeth a wife finds a good thing. And I tell these guys, look, the second greatest gift God will ever give you, second only to salvation, the second greatest gift God ever gives a Christian man is a godly wife. And I think we need to affirm the ethic of family. Jordan Peterson, the Canadian psychologist, he says, you want to save the Western world and fulfill the Great Commission? Get married, stay married, have babies, raise your kids to love Christ. And, by the way, I've got an article in my laptop from Psychology Today. It is not a preacher. It's not a Christian magazine. University of Southern California at Santa Barbara. Volumes of data says, if you get married, get married, stay married. You're more likely to be emotionally happy, more likely to be financially successful, less likely to ever get hooked on substances, less likely to ever get robbed. Oddly enough, get married, stay married, less likely to ever be in a car accident. I mean, it's just crazy. And this article says, and this was a 10-year study of thousands of people, and it says, marriage conveys, this is a verbatim quote, marriage conveys a host of societal good on us, and at least 10 years longer of life. So, here's the thing, and that's, James Dobson or any of us would amen this, but psychology today is saying, if you want to thrive as a human, probably be more financially successful, and over the long pull, be healthier, outlive your counterparts by 10 years or more, the secret is marriage and family. Amen, brother, I agree with you. And you know, when you were talking about Richard Dawkins, this is the thought that popped in my head. You've got the most preeminent atheist in the world today, the man that wrote the book called The God Delusion. He comes on national TV, claims to be cultural Christian, because even he sees that Christianity is the salt and light of the earth. And so, I always thought that's a great testimony. Well, Alex, I've got one final question for you, is that we live in divided and difficult times. So how can the church and the Christian community support that next generation of leaders that are coming up in the mold of what Charlie sought to build? Wow, great question. I love history, I love the church, I really do. I've been so blessed, Brett, to, I give God the glory, but we've had an interesting journey, like 2,200 churches in 27 years. You know, it's been, and I jokingly, I tell people, I've been in churches where they sleep in the pews, I've been in churches where they jump over the pews, it's all good. But listen to this, I was up in Michigan, and I love cars, I'm a real car guy, so I was near Detroit, or Dearborn, Michigan, so I thought, I'm going to take my rental car and try to find out where Ford Motors is, and I did, and there's factories. Okay, I was turning this corner, and there's like this glass display, and there's a Ford Thunderbird, and some old Mustangs, and there's a GT40, and a Shelby Cobra, so in this like glass showcase at this particular corner were some of the classics, and there was a museum. But then you drive past the factory where they create the new models, and there's in, I mean, it takes half hour to drive past it, takes one second to drive past the showroom where they showcase the classics, and then to drive past the ones where they go and create the new cars, factories for endless miles. Now, here's my point. Clearly, their resources and energy are invested in creating the new models. In the church, we've got that upside down. I mean, I've been in churches with two and three million dollar annual budgets, and the youth are in one corner of the basement with a part-time youth pastor and zero budget. I love my elders, but church, we got to do like Ford, at least in this regard. Thank God for the Christians that have been around for decades. I respect that all day long. But we got to put our resources in reaching the lost and the young people. And you need to hire the best staff members and volunteers to be in your youth ministry, children's ministry. For one thing, I love Ken Ham. He's a longtime friend. He's got a curriculum called the seven C's of creation. And it can start in the nursery. And folks, I've got to tell you, if you think that giving a Bible to your graduating seniors the first Sunday of June, and they're on their way out the door, half these seniors haven't even been in church in two years, and they come on graduation Sunday, and they march in in their cap and gown, and you give them a NIV study Bible, look, that's not enough. And I want to challenge the churches, teach the Word of God, teach biblical worldview, and set the bar of discipleship higher, not lower. By the way, participation is a privilege, not a right. If you're going to take the kids to Fuge or our camp, there needs to be some standards they meet up to. And youth group is not just pizza, paintball, and Pepsi. I mean, it is, you are entering a relationship with almighty God. And, yeah, I love the simple Bible stories, but we have to be straight with our kids. And I'll say this, I'll throw it back to you, Brett. We stretch our youth in a lot of ways, athletically, academically, go out for the team, National Honor Society. I don't think we stretch them spiritually enough. We water it down. Kids are smart. Read the Bible. Have them read. Teach them leadership. Delegate. Have them call Sunday School to order. And delegate responsibilities. And also, we do Christian clubs after school. But I think we have to understand that our job as adult Christians is to be passing that baton to the next Christians. Book Frank Turk to come to your city. Book me. Book Lucas Miles. Book Sean McDowell. There's some Jenna Ellis. She's brilliant. She's an incredible worldview speaker. But in your weekly rhythm of church life, and certainly throughout the calendar year, Christian camp in the summer. But let's do our utmost so that graduation from high school is not graduation away from God. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Well, I'll tell you, I have enjoyed our time together this week. We've got a crusade. In fact, we're about to go over and do our last night of the crusade. And I remember when it kind of worked. We've been planning this crusade for over a year, and it kind of fell to me to be in charge of it and over it when I have never actually been to a crusade before. This is my first one, but I have... You've done well. Well, I haven't... I wouldn't give anything for it. I've enjoyed meeting you, being with you, and with that said, I think me and you have one last crusade meeting to get to. Yeah, and time fleets away. This is such a blessing. I appreciate you, Brett, and it's great to be your friend, and I'm very honored to be on your podcast. Amen. Well, for everyone else, we'll see you guys later. Remember, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. I found my new name, found that good grace, found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance, found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom podcast. For Freedomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkomkom

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