189. The Eric Capaci Interview - Part 2

Welcome back to this week's episode of Eric Capace's interview. This is part two of what we have going on with our interview this week. We thank you for listening. We thank you for all those who have shared our last episode, shared the videos that we've been sharing, the clips that we've been sharing. This interview has been an interview that me and Brett thought up a couple years ago and we're excited about finally coming through with it now. And it has been one of these monumental episodes for us. Just being able to get my former pastor on here, college president, and be able to get his words on his transitioning from the IFB. Last week we looked at just his foundational part of his upbringing, where he was at, the founding of Champion. Again, today's interview is really looking for the future and seeing what he has been a part of over these last couple of years. And the future of the vision that God's given him there in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Also, there's college as well. And so we want to share this today. Again, if you haven't got our experience box, please go by our website. Check that out. You get one of each of our cigars, a coffee, bag of coffee, and a bar of soap. And this is all custom. It's all handmade. And so we are excited about being able to partner with a couple of different companies. Our soap company is a brand new company in Tennessee who just started up. Angela, who just started putting some great soap together. Some of the best soap I've ever used. And we're partnering with United Christian Missions with our experience box. And they're providing the coffee for it. And every box that you buy is going, proceeds of that are going to help plant churches and strengthen churches in Nicaragua. Right now they've planted about nine churches and looking to continue to educate and provide training for those pastors. And even in the future, plant more churches. And so we are excited about partnering with that endeavor to be able to see some proceeds go to specifically help those organizations and that organization there. And so we hope you go and check that out. Small way to help support the podcast, but also support some great ministries in that endeavor. As always, you can go by and check out my recent book that I put out, From Brokenness to Freedom. I've got an interview on that coming out in just a couple of days with the Dead Men Walking podcast, as well as with the We Are One podcast. Both of them are going to be interviewing me on that book. And so we're really excited about that. And I think it'll be a help and an encouragement to those who have been in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and have left. And you're processing through feelings, emotions, stress. This will be a great resource for you during this time. So we hope you enjoy that. Again, this is part two of Eric Capace's episode. And so we hope you enjoy it today. We hope you enjoy what it is that Eric has to say about the future of his ministry and where he's at there. And looking forward to next week as we come to you. And we talk to you about West Coast Baptist Bible College, Paul Chapel out there in California. And we continue looking through the future of fundamentalism and what that looks like and what that's going to go through. And as always, if you ever have any questions or comments, feel free to reach out to us. Maybe you have your own story that you want to share about your time in the IFB. We want to give you that platform to be able to share with those that can be encouraged by your story. And so by all means, reach out to us, shoot us a direct message. And we look forward to partnering with you in the future. And we thank you for that. We hope you enjoyed part two of Dr. Eric Capace's interview. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. For freedom, he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified, released. Let grace begin. For freedom, he set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Saifert and Brett Martin. Eric, as we transition to these next questions, before we get to the next question, I'd like to bring up something. I think we have a mutual friend. And I'm sorry if I'm cutting in and out. No, I can hear you. I grew up in Open North Baptist Church in Macomb, Mississippi. And my bus captain for a while was a man by the name of Mark Cantrell. And so I think you know Mark. Legend. He's a legend. I tell you what, I went to camp with this guy. He hit me. He hit me with a pillow. We were pillow fighting. He hit me so hard, he almost took my head off. I never swung another pillow at him. But I love Brother Mark. I love his heart. And so I couldn't be on here with you and not mention him. Thank you. He's still a faithful member. Great guy. He's still a deacon in our church. Praise the Lord. Amen. Well, this next question you alluded to earlier, but, you know, when you, your ministry took a significant turn when you left the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement. And we want to give you an opportunity to speak into that. Was it decisive, clean? Was it gradual? Just talk us through how that was for you. Okay, you did cut off at the very end when you said we took a significant turn. Was it, could you say that again? Was it? You took a significant turn away from the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement. Right. Just want you to talk us through that. Yeah, so. Or was it a decisive process? Thank you. No, it was everything but decisive in a way that it was quick. And it was, I like to put it this way, because this is what I used to hear many times when I would hear an Independent Baptist preacher preach. If you don't like it, the door swings both ways. You know, I'd hear that a lot. I never understood it, because I honestly didn't want to have a church with that kind of an attitude. Because to me, it's, you know, I don't want the door to swing both ways. How do you build a church if the door's swinging both ways? I want it to swing in. I realize people are going to leave, but I don't want it to be on account of my, you know, insensitivity. So I realized this. I had, and I'm going to be hard on myself for a second, because I think I need to be, because it helps me to say it. I got myself into this mess. I mean, you made your bed, Eric. You got to lay in it. You got to, this is, you took the church this far. You grew to 1,500 people with a bus ministry, hellfire brimstone, having Tony Hudson in church. And I'm not picking on Brother Tony. I mean, he's just one of many. But Eric, you're going to have to get out of this. And for you to just turn your back on all of this and just say it was all wrong. And, you know, bless God, we're going to run over here to, you know, to this other side. We're going to let the extremism of fundamentalism now become the extremism of, etc., whether it's contemporary or whatever. So I realized that is not a good method. See, I'm convinced that methodology is incredibly important. How you do something is important. It's like how we talk. The tone in which we say something, we could be right in everything we're saying. But if our tone is wrong, then nobody's going to hear what we're saying. And if they do hear, they're going to want to do the exact opposite because we're not saying it in a way that can be received. And that goes for a husband and wife and a pastor and member, a friend. And so, Brett, I took it very slow. I mean, when I got back from New York and from Brooklyn Tab and this whole transition started, it was about a year, about five years, excuse me, from start to finish. In that five-year period, it included transitioning our music. And it started with Southern Gospel. I mean, I'd always like Southern Gospel, but when we had the Ball Brothers in, I lost about, you know, 10 meetings and 10 friends. And this is just a Southern Gospel. We're not talking about, you know, and then casting crowns. And that, to me, casting crowns is, I mean, that's not, you know, it's not Lecrae. You know what I mean? Come on. You know, I mean, my kid loved Lecrae, you know. I had conversations with our church members. I had hundreds and thousands of conversations. The price you have to pay. Jesus said that you got to count the cost. I mean, if it doesn't cost you something, then it's probably not worth doing. But secondly, if you're not going to be willing to pay the price, then don't do it. Just don't change. And so I knew I was going to lose a lot going in. And we did. It was a slow leak. It went from $1,500 down to $750. And then we went in our Christian school from 150 kids to 50. And our college went from $300 to $30. So we basically, I was 30 days away from foreclosure and all of this. I mean, literally at a bank. I mean, not because of mishandling money, not because I was, you know, a liberal. Or it was because we were transitioning a fundamental, independent Baptist church. This is, and I'm pretty open with my brethren who say, how did you do it? I said, look, if you're not ready to get 30 days away from foreclosure, I'm not saying you'll get there. But for me, it was almost the death of my ministry. I remember our deacons called me in and said, preacher, if we lose it all, we'll just go get us an acre somewhere out in Malvern or Glenwood or Mount Otten. And we'll try to start again. You know, we were that. We really thought it was over. So this transition, even though I did it with compassion, it's still, nobody was mad at me, though. This is the beautiful thing because people were leaving, but they weren't mad. Like they would leave the church. I remember one guy, we had just quit the Sunday night service. So he brought his family in, him, his wife, and their three kids. They ended up going to Gospel Light in Malvern when they left us. And they came and they said, preacher, the straw that broke the camel's back for us was Sunday night. They said, we just, and she said, my dad's a preacher. And if he, if he, if he, it's funny because she said it like this. I'll never forget it. He said, if he knew that we were not going to church on Sunday night, he'd roll over in his grave. And I thought, sister, you just told me he was lost because if he saved, he's not in the grave. But I didn't say that, you know. But she said he would roll over in his grave. I just can't imagine that my dad would be so disappointed in me. And I said, look, I get it. I said, you probably need to leave. I understand. I just want you to know that I love you. And I want you to, I'm not doing this because I, I don't care about you. I'm just doing this because this is what Jesus is calling me to do. And they said, we respect you. We love you. We're not angry with you. And they left. And this was dozens of families, dozens, just for different reasons. And so after the smoke cleared and the dust settled, we had, we had a church, but it was a broken church, a church that was on fumes. I mean, I didn't take a salary for six months. We were, my dad wrote me a check. I'll never forget it. He said, at that time I was making $40,000 a year, you know. And he said, Eric, what do you, what do you, what do you need to make it? My dad's Catholic. He knew, he knew what I was going through. And I said, well, dad, I, I told the deacons, I'm not going to take a check for six months just so we can somehow make it. And I don't even know if we're going to make it. He said, I'll write you a check for $20,000 for six months so you can at least pay your bills. And so my Catholic dad stepped in and, and helped my family survive six months without pay. And then, and then we still slowly started rebounding. And, and, and man, it's just been, it went basically from here to here. And now we've just climbed back up. And again, it's all been God's grace. So it was a slow move. It wasn't, I don't look, I think anything that's done in haste. And I think scripture teaches this is usually going to lead, whether it's anger, whether it's words, whether it's money that we spend in haste with all of that is going to usually end with regret. I have no regrets about the way that I transitioned. I have no regrets about leaving fundamentalism and becoming, because we did not do it with, with, in a way that was uncaring or unthoughtful. We really, we really took it serious. And I heard a lot of people. Remember Raz Pittman? Yeah. So I took, I took Raz out to lunch because Raz and Esther were going to leave the church. They were sixties. They were in their sixties. They said, we just can't handle the music preacher. We can't do it. Sorry. We love you. It's just too loud. And I said, look, I know it is. I apologize. I don't, I don't always like it and I'm working on it. We're trying to get the sound right. And, but Raz, Esther, I love you and I need you. And I said, I just, I can't imagine going to church without you. I said, but I get it. If you think you need to leave, I understand. But I said, I just want you to know that your grandkids go to a church like ours in Florida. All of your children are not in an independent Baptist church. I said, so please know that, you know, I really do believe that, that there's something you're missing. If you leave, there's something you're going to regret. Would you at least give me six more months and just, just pray through this thing. And they said, okay, we will. So they stayed six more months and they're here today. Raz is 82. His wife has dementia. I'm still their pastor. That's been 10 years. And I'm going to get to bury him one day if I don't die first. And I, and in fact, I told him that at lunch, I said, Raz, who's going to bury you? Who knows you? Like I know you, who's going to preach your funeral. Like I could, he's like, yeah, you got a point there. He goes, I hate it. I'm sick. I think he must've been like 72 at the time. I said 60, he's probably 72 because he's 82 now, you know, stories like that. I've got a thousand like that. That's great. I love it. And as we think through that, when you left the independent fundamental Baptist and I came to champion or gospel light in 2020, because it was during COVID, you, you moved teen rev from Gatlinburg. You came when? 2020. 2020, you moved teen, teen revolution from Gatlinburg to hot springs. And I brought, like, we were just shut down. No one was doing anything. And I said, we're just going to go do something. And I had like 20 teenagers show up during COVID and it was awesome. We stayed in the dorms. Um, so I began to see, man, you got a black wall, you got lights, you got a drums. Like I was just blown away. Like what's going on here. So your transition and we haven't taught, we'd be and you've had these talks. I've talked with Mark and other guys, um, there. Well, what was, what was the reason you went to the SBC? That's sort of the, the, the transition we're going to look at here. I mean, there's the Presbyterians, um, the, their, their era on, um, um, baby baptism, uh, Pano baptism. Uh, there's some other, uh, theological things that are different. There's some other good denominations out there. What was it about the SBC? Was it a theological issue? Was it a practical issue? What prompted you to go that way? It probably started with Adrian Rogers just cause I was so moved by his teachings, his message, his disposition. And I started following and I went to his funeral in 2000. If I'm not mistaken, it was 2000. Hmm. Well, I may be wrong. I don't want, I want to say it was 2004 that I went to his funeral. And I remember, uh, no, it was after that. Cause 2005 is when we started champion. So it must've been 2014. I don't remember, but anyway, I apologize for not knowing that exact date, but I went to his funeral and, uh, and heard, they, they played a video about the history of Adrian Rogers. And a lot of it had to do with his stand for conservatism within the Southern Baptist convention. And I'm sure you've heard that story. If you've been to Southern Baptist, you, you know, there was a, uh, kind of an awakening in the SBC movement that was brought on by, by conservatives like Adrian Rogers. So I began to become attractive to his leadership, which introduced me to the Southern Baptist world. And so for, uh, probably the last five years that I was independent Baptist, I was already fellowshipping with, with, with Southern Baptist pastors. It would be, I didn't know anything other than being an independent Baptist other than Adrian Rogers. So I got introduced to it. And then I went up to, uh, Rogers and, and, and again, and talk to, uh, talk to Ronnie. And I said, Ronnie, and he really helped me. I mean, we have Starbucks, never forget it. I'll never forget. He spent six hours with six. And this was the future president of the SBC. And he wasn't the president yet, but he ended up, I said, Ronnie, well, do you think it would be wise for me to become an SBC? He said, Eric, let me tell you five reasons why five reasons. And he gave me five reasons why, and they were all powerful reasons. I mean, Ronnie always has five, always five, always five. He had a five plan vision for 20, 25. Like he had, whenever he would talk at SBC, it was always five. Like Mark Devers, always nine. He's always five. These guys just have their numbers. They got their numbers. And one of those reasons was the networking. He said, Eric, look, the networking is invaluable. Look, we don't have, we don't, we don't require a look at your financials. We don't care about your properties. We don't ask to see your bylaws. You've just got to sign the Baptist faith and message and you get 45,000 friends the day you sign. You know, that was what he was telling me, you know. And I'm like, really? So you guys don't like own our church property? Somebody said, if you become a Southern Baptist, that the SBC convention owns. He goes, Eric, I've heard that a million times. He goes, I don't know, of course, all my independent Baptist friends don't be. You know, it's like signing your life away to become a Southern Baptist, you know. I didn't sign one thing. I just sent 100 bucks into the, to the cooperative program, you know, for a year. And now, of course, we give thousands. But, so, here's what I did. And you'll appreciate this. Again, here's my, Brett, here's my not decisive way of doing things, more, more massaging things. So I said, I told our elders, we're going to go on a six-month journey with the Southern Baptist Convention. Six months. And we're going to make a decision as a church after six months. And I announced it to the church that, I said, we were already an elder-led church by this time. This was 2018. So I said, we're going to go on a six-month journey beginning with a trip, all of our elders, to Little Rock to meet with, with Sonny. Oh, my goodness. Got the fattest last name. And all of the leadership there. He was the executive director. Sonny Tucker. Sonny Tucker. Sonny Tucker. So we get to Little Rock. They give us three or four hours. They take us to lunch. Take care of us. Answer every question we've got. And I said, okay, boys, we're on our, are you guys good so far? Yeah, I think we should take the next step. I said, okay. So I called Little Rock. I said, can you send me a guy down that will teach six consecutive weeks in our church on what it means to be a part of the Southern Baptist Mansion? So he would drive down. And I would not do it inside the church building because I didn't think that many people would come. And I was right. I mean, nobody really cared. I was just, I mean, most people in our church by now weren't independent fundamental Baptists. But there were some. And I wanted to care for those 50 or 60 that were left that were, had heard that to be an SBC member was to just completely, you know, deny your faith. So that guy came down. I can't remember his name. He's still a part of it. He's awesome. And then, and then we started going through the Baptist Faith and Message. And it was great. So at six months, I had Sonny Tucker come and preach on a Sunday morning. And we voted. Now, we were packed by then. Church was packed. And get this. This is pretty impressive, actually. After six months of teaching, training, informing, everything, we voted on a Sunday morning after Sonny's message. One hundred percent to become an SBC church. Not one negative vote. Nobody left. No independent. Mark was with me all the way, you know. So long story short, that's how we did it. It was a process. It began with a conversation with Ronnie Floyd. It led to six months of learning about the SBC and then a vote on a Sunday morning. So, man, I talked to the Arkansas Baptist Foundation this morning, the president of the foundation, about it. Because we just took over another campus on Park Avenue. And they had some money in an account that they're going to send to us. And I was just talking with him and telling him how we're doing. And I tell you, I am so blessed to be in the SBC. And not because it has no problems or controversies. But I love it because of the overwhelming unity that you sense amongst at least most SBC churches, especially in Arkansas. But I do believe even nationwide, missions brings us together. And, you know, with all of our issues and problems, you can still get 10,000 delegates every year in a building to at least say we're not all alike. But we all agree that the gospel is number one. So, yeah, I'm sure if you had made a vote to say, hey, we're going to paint the back of the wall of the church black, it wouldn't have got 100%. No, no, no, that would not have gotten it. And that did not get 100%. Yes, we're not going to get 100% on that. But, yeah, it's great. The question is what kind of opposition or consequences, if any, did you face during your transition to the SBC, either in your church or personally? Yeah, I would say the consequences that I faced for the most part were outside of the church. Missionaries, you know, anybody that we supported that was independent Baptist, literally, they would call us and say, we don't want your money anymore because you're an SBC church. Those were consequences. And I lost some friends over that. And, again, I understood. I never, I honestly have never tried to argue my way or out of those kinds of, to me, people have to figure things out. And, you know, I'm not, if they ask me a question, I'll answer it. But if they call me and say, you're an SBC church, we don't want your money anymore. You know, it's dirty money to us. I'm like, okay, that's the way you feel. I'm sorry. You know, they're not asking me how I feel or if we are. They're just, so that would happen. I lost meetings. Now, you got to realize with me and preaching out, you know, I was a, I used to preach out 50, 60 times a year. Of course, I was losing my family. When I say that, I don't mean literally on the brink of divorce. And I just mean I wasn't home enough for that to be sustained over a period of time. I would have lost my family. I'm convinced of it. You know, it was unhealthy for me to do what I was doing. But when I got to where I was managing my traveling much better and traveling a couple of times a month, that went down to probably one time a month. I lost quite a few churches that were still having me in when we became a Southern Baptist church. So I would say this to you, Brett. The consequences were it was for some, for some, it would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. But locally, zero. No opposition locally. No opposition within the church. No opposition in the college because we had already lost everything by then. I mean, it was, I had already reached a point where I'm on an island. And I've got these SBC friends around town, but I'm not an SBC church. And again, I'm not an SBC church by conviction. That's not why I'm an SBC church. I'm an SBC church because of the fellowship and the networking and the missions. And it's just a great tool. It's like being a part of the chamber of commerce. I mean, whatever. I mean, it's, it's, it's not, there's nothing in writing that, that makes me, uh, that creates this loyal, we don't, we don't tell people in our town, gospelite, a Southern Baptist church. You know, we don't do that. We're gospelite. You know, somebody asks me, are you a Southern Baptist church? The answer is yes. But it's not like we advertise that as some label that we're proud of. It's no, we're, we're just proud to, to be Christ followers. That's it. So anyway, I, I'll leave that answer like that. Yeah. You're not, you're probably not gaining too many members by just saying we're Southern Baptist church. No. It helps them understand that they are familiar with Baptist, the Baptist faith and message. That's what we affirm. Okay. You affirm these things. We can fellowship. Uh, yeah, I love it. Love it. It's a great thing. It gives me a convention with these churches that put Southern Baptist church in their name. Yeah. No, I don't get it either. It doesn't make it that that's, that's strange. That is strange to me. But again, in their defense, you know, that was a long time ago and, and it's tough to change once you've got it in there. Cause you've got money involved. You've got deacons and highfalutin. We've experienced that, you know, in some of these campuses that we've started. So, yeah. So as, as many people have, have left the IFB, myself, Brett, John, list goes on and on of people that we can talk to. And we can say that they've wrestled with, we like to use the term disillusionment. Uh, the, the, the glass wall that was in front of us finally broke. We saw what was behind it. The doubts began to come in. What advice would you give to those that are considering leaving, but they feel stuck? Yeah. Oh, identities wrapped up in it. They're, they're preaching their brothers. They're all the, everything they've ever known is in it. They feel stuck, but they know they don't belong. They know this isn't right. They know that the, the legalism is tearing their families apart. They know that this is something that is detrimental to their, their family, their church and everything, but they feel like there's no way out of it. How would you counsel someone in that? Yeah. So you're talking about an independent Baptist that feels there's no way out. Uh, yeah. Boy, I meet them all the time. Um, and I counsel them all the time. There's obviously different. I say it like this, not to make an, not to make an excuse, but just to get a lot of people. Give one answer. There's different levels of answer. I give, you know, but, uh, to give a balanced one versus an extreme. Um, you know, I, I respect the fact that for some it is, well, I wish I could mention the name right now. Cause it would help so much, but I don't think I need to. Um, I don't think it would be helpful, especially since this is a podcast, but I'm thinking of one dear friend of mine that comes here often. And he comes, he loves me. We're tight. He comes to the church. He has family in the church. So he comes here, but he has a very high profile father and it's independent Baptist. And he's told me, so I don't think I could ever do it. He said, but Eric, um, there's things, the reasons why I would like to do it. And I've said, look, brother, here's the thing. You know, you've got to be, if you're not, the answer is not becoming a Southern Baptist. The answer is being free. It's being free. It's being free to follow Jesus. The way God has led you to follow Jesus. Now, if that is in this, to the Southern Baptist church convention, you need to do it, but it doesn't sound like it needs to be in your situation. If it would create division, if it would have caused your kids not to have a grandfather or a grandmother, I advise you against that. Yeah, that I didn't pay that price at all. I mean, I lost friends, but I lose family. If you're going to lose family, then what I encourage you to do is follow Jesus and, and, and realize that there are going to be conversations that you're going to have to have with, with, with your family. That certain things, for instance, one on the King James issue, this particular guy said, I, I've learned that I can, I can talk to my dad about that issue. You know, so I've usually, I guess my counsel to, to people who are in desperate situations that were, that would result in separation from their family. I, I don't, okay. I'm thinking of another guy that has, this guy actually, I will say this. He does work for, for a high profile college independent Baptist pastor. His, he, he, he's totally lines up with where you and I would be James, but he married a wife who does not, she, she, she cannot see it his way. She, she loves him. She, she's okay with him being okay with things that she's not okay with. But she, she, she told him, she says, I don't think I could ever attend a church other than this one. And I told him, I said, look, I don't think I would, for the sake of just standing up for what you believe in, leave your wife or lose your family. I believe I would just keep on living and loving and serving Jesus and having conversations, healthy, hard conversations with your family that will lead to prayerfully a change in heart. So, I guess it's, it's, it's a tough question, James, because there's so many conversations I'm having right now with guys. I mean, like dozens with different situations. And my prayer is that one day they would be set free completely, but it's difficult. It's difficult sometimes. I mean, like for me, I'm a Roman Catholic. I mean, you know, my Catholic family didn't understand why I was an independent fundamental Baptist. So, it was like, they looked at my changes as, man, we're glad your wife can finally wear pants and, you know, you can finally take your tie off on something. They were happy for me. But for some, it might mean, it might mean you don't have a, you don't have a father. You don't have a mother. You don't have, you know, so I get it. It's, there's different levels, but I think it all boils down to this. It's communication, conversations, and a willingness to, to just be honest, but not to be hateful and arrogant, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, I think the other side of that question that I want to ask is, let's say someone's no longer stuck. They feel like that they can take that step. They can take that move into the right direction that is more balanced for their family, for their ministry, for what God's called them to do to follow their convictions. What are some steps that you would recommend practically or even spiritually that they should take? How do, how do they navigate through that? Or we're, we're in this area and we're wanting to move away. How does that look? Yeah, that's great. So, I think what I've always said is a principle that I've lived by now for a long time, and that is live in the tension. And let me explain what I mean by that. When we are willing to live in the tension of grace and truth, grace and truth, live in that tension. Understand that it's, it's never, it's never right to be just all grace. It's never helpful and healthy to be all truth. But when we're willing to blend those two, to live in that tension, in our ministries, in our, with our families, raising our kids, that requires, that requires a willingness, a desire. Look, I don't want, I still appreciate my independent Baptist heritage. My, all five of my kids, I've got one special needs, but I'll still say five. All, all of them would say, you know, dad's never, we've never had dad, dad really curse his past or talk negative about people on either side or, you know, or, or, or, or, or, or worship a Southern Baptist leader. I live in the tension because I know that we're all centers, that there's things on both sides of the script that are going to be, that are difficult. And we could, we could, we could give reasons why we are not this or not that. But when we live in the tension, meaning it's, it's, it's not easy, meaning there's difficult conversations, meaning that at the end of the day, it requires a lot of time to be balanced. It just does. It requires a lot of effort to be, it'd be a lot easier just to throw up my hands and say, you know what, I'm not going to do. But I love the fact that we have a large staff here, but I, I, I tell them all the time, guys, we, we can't treat our preferences like they're, they're the only way or they're the best way. We have to understand that the reason why we still sing a hymn or two around here, it has nothing to do with the fact that, you know, we want to be old fashioned. It has something to do with, there are people who appreciate that. They appreciate that. They, they, let's respect each other. Let's love each other. Let's care for one another enough to where we're willing to, to have a give and take relationship. And so, um, anyway, that, that would be my answer is, is don't run in any direction. Stay in the middle of, of, of stay in the balance and in the tension of grace and truth when it comes to building a church, building a staff, raising children, stay in that tension. Eric, you've, you've walked us through the past and it's been a great journey here in your experiences, but I want to talk about the present right now. And I want to know what excites you most about what God is doing at gospel light and champion Christian right now. Like, what are you most excited about today? Oh yeah, I can tell you right now we have, I mentioned earlier that the, the, the revival that I was in as a faith Baptist church in Canoga Park, California, that, that youth revival that I was a part of. I mentioned, I don't know that I've ever been since that day in something that was so fascinating until now, there is something going on right now. It's like, it's like, it almost feels as if the prayers that I have prayed for over 30 years for God to send revival to hot springs and, and, and to help champion become a global college. I'm beginning to see seeds of that coming to pass. So Brett, to answer your question, I'll start with the college and then I'll say something about the church and the school. So the college real quick, we have a James, it looks like that this year we'll have 800 students at champion Christian college. We had 160 last year from 160 to 800. How? Well, our own campus environment will be about 200. Our online will be about 600. And how that's happened is we have partnered with a dual language track for Brazilians. And so we are, we are right now admitting and accepting applications to hundreds of Brazilian students that are coming to take theology classes from champion. And it has exploded our budget, our finances, our hiring process, our facilities, because God has, I remember I read Jerry Falwell's biography. And Jerry Falwell was at a place where he was, his college was going bankrupt. You can read it. If you've not read his biography, it's fascinating. I love it. And, and, and he, he fasted, prayed for 40 days. And God sent a guy by the name of A.L. Williams to, to write a check for a hundred thousand dollars, I mean, excuse me, a hundred million dollars. And it revolutionized on the 40th day of Jerry Falwell's fast, the future of, and to this day, you, you hear people speak about that 40 day fast and the miracle check that, that totally revolutionized the future of Liberty University. For which I'm a graduate. I would say for us, it's probably this dual language track. This has opened up millions of dollars that we would have never, never had in our budget. And so we're, we're, we're on a journey right now at the college where we are seeing things come to pass because of provision. And it's not, these are all theological students. And they've been on 110 of them were on our campus two weeks ago. It was just, it's fascinating. So I'm really excited about champion, the growth, the, the, the, the fact that we're not just now a, a local, you know, campus with kids in a dormitory, but now we're kids all over the world and all over the United States. Christian school. Our, our governor is Sarah Sanders, formerly Sarah Huckabee, incredible governor, very, very Christian. And she has, she has finally been able to pass school choice through all of our legislation here in Arkansas, which means now you can attend gospel like Christian school through what's called resources from the learns act. The learns act is what she is providing every, every student and family in the state of Arkansas with monies to attend the school of your choice. And so we have now a waiting list, a mile long of young people and families that are trying to get their kids in the gospel like Christian school. It is unbelievable how that's changed. We finally are able to be competitive in our salaries. I mean, literally my son 10 years ago made $14,000 to teach in our Christian school. And this was the independent Baptist way. I mean, you know, this is just, we don't pay much and guess what? You don't get much, but we are now able to compete with public schools and what we can pay our teachers. And it's revolutionized how the hiring process, the quality of teacher, still Christian, obviously, but it's been, it's been incredible church. So three years ago, I became burdened about SBC churches in Arkansas that are empty. I went to the state convention and I heard a guy get up and say of the, of the 1,479 Southern Baptist churches, he said, I think he said 1,200 or maybe it was 1,100. It was over a thousand churches or a hundred or less. But then he said something astounding. He said something like 500 or 600 have less than 20. And so I thought, wow, what, what, how are they making it? Well, they're not, you know, they're, they're, we had. We have, I think a dozen in the, in Garland County. So I began to do some research in Garland County as to who these churches were and, and why were they, why were they settling for 10, 20 people? And how big are these auditoriums? So God opened the door for us to have a conversation with Antioch Baptist Church on Sunshine Road, an auditorium that seats 250 and they had eight people. And so God allowed us to develop a relationship. And we created a model that introduced them to what it would look like to replant their church, make it a campus of gospel light, but not lose the heritage of Antioch. Because this is what we have found when we pulled the church, even though it was just eight people, they all said, we know we're dying. We know that if we stay Antioch Baptist Church, the way it is, it's going to close its doors. But we, we don't want Antioch to lose Antioch. And if we become gospel light, then where, where does that leave Antioch? And we said, well, let's talk about that. How can we figure that out? And so we began to create ways that Antioch can still live within the life of being a replant. For instance, we named our coffee shop over there, Antioch roast. You know, we kept the sign on the church that says Antioch Baptist Church founded. So we did a name change. They deeded their property to our church. It had on Easter Sunday this year, 179 people. It's exploding on Sunshine Road. It's a campus of our church. But we created a model that said, it's not our way or the highway. There's got to be a way that we can, we can, we can merge these two. So we did. And then a year ago, Park Place Baptist Church was a much bigger transition. 750 seat auditorium, Bill Clinton. It was his childhood home, sang in the choir. Historically, Park Place has a huge, a huge reputation in the state of Arkansas. But it was down to 20 people. Took the pastor out a year ago, had a great conversation with him. But I could tell, no go. So I just kept calling about every month. Hey, pastor, I love you. How can we help? Found out, you know, they couldn't, they didn't have enough money to mow their lawn. Started mowing their lawn. Started caring for them, loving them, meeting his needs, finding ways we could help him personally. 75 years old. So finally, about four months ago, he said, Eric, look, you know, we're about out of money. And we're having to make a decision as to what to do. And it looks like our only option is to have a conversation with you. So I told him, look, this is the model. This is what we can do. How can, he said, but I don't want Park Place. I don't think our people would ever agree to do it without Park Place in the name. And so I went back to our elders. I said, look, let's talk. So we decided on Gospelite at Park Place because it's on a street called Park Avenue. So it made sense. So they voted a month ago to merge their congregation with ours. So that added a fourth campus because we've got our Spanish campus as well. So I am so excited because I feel like we've got some momentum here that, and I had about five years ago, I felt like not an epiphany, but I felt as if God said, Eric, you know, I know I didn't let you pastor in a large city, but I'm going to give you 10 campuses in Garland County. So we're on our fourth campus. I'm praying for six more. And we're asking God to give us these empty churches. They're, they're debt free. You know, this was a $3 million. The other, I think Sunshine Road was a million and a half dollar campus, beautiful campus, fellowship halls and gymnasiums and parking lots. It's just fascinating. And so we're excited, man. I, I am so excited because I, I think that I'm onto something. That's what I want to have a meeting with the head of the SBC in the state to say, is there, and I know James, you've experienced some of this, you know, in your, in your, but is there a way that we can have conversations with churches that it takes a while to transition, but that there is not a my way or the highway attitude. It's more of a, how can we keep the heritage of your church, but transition into a new culture. And it takes, it takes a lot of massaging without, without dishonesty and deception, a lot of massaging and conversations, but it's, so we are now one church on four campuses. We're back up to averaging close to 1300 a Sunday. And it's, it's been, it's been amazing. So I feel like I'm back, you know, size wise, we're about what we were at our peak as an independent Baptist. Just, we're just having to do it a different way. No bus ministry, just campuses, you know, it's a distant difference, a different method, same gospel. So. Yeah. Two things that I want to interject is we've got a guy in our North Carolina convention. His name is Mark Gray. I can get you his contact. And he is over what we call legacy churches in North Carolina, churches that have a huge legacy that are, have been there for many, many years in their community, but they're dying and they don't know how to change. And so, um, they come in, he comes in as a consultant and says, Hey, there's another church over here, a gospel light or a pleasant grove that'll come in and help replant your church. And one fun thing that they've done is they've taken like two, like a corner of like the, a hallway and they've done like part place and all the history. And they'll put pictures at the corner divide. The other way is the new church that's taken over and that is replanting it. So it's, it's a vision of where we were at, but where we're going. And so all the people that were there and the people get to come get to see Bill Clinton came here. All these people came here, but yet there's an advantage to go forward and you're not abandoning that legacy that they did. That's it. The money that was given. Um, so that's a cool, I love to talk to him. Yeah. He's a great guy. I have lunch with him, uh, probably every once every six months, just hanging out, talking. Um, and then number two, I had something else I was going to say. Um, I can't remember now. No, it'll come back to me. Um, number two, but let me ask you this. If you could, I sort of like to do this thought experiment every once in a while, even with me and Allie, we'll do this and we'll sort of go back and we'll think about, uh, some of our past, some of our old self. And the question is, is if you could go back to 20 year old, Eric, just left house, you're at Canoga park, California. You're about to plant gospel light and hot springs. You're just now coming into ministry. You're transitioning. What would you say to that 20 year old Eric? You know, I've always, I've always known that as I've, as I've grown the area of my life that I wished I would have been, I wish I wish I would have done better in. If you're referring to what would I change or what would I say to that person? It would be this listen. I don't think I was a good listener when I was younger. I think I was, I was moving so fast that I wasn't really listening, uh, to the voices that were speaking into my life. And I, I, I think I missed out on a lot of input and in wisdom because I was such a strong personality, such a mover and a shaker, such a salesman, if you will, which was all good things. I mean, things that benefited me in ministry, but I think I've learned to listen, to stop, to, to, to listen to what someone has to say and not respond. Just pray, listen. I feel like if I would have done more of that from 20 to 30, that I would be in a better place than I am right now. And I, and I know that my journey did not include that trait. Okay. It was lacking that, but you asked the question. So I'm answering it. And I think without, without any question, um, and it's great advice. It really is, I I've had the chance to tell all my kids this, you know, and I hope they won't, I don't think they've made, they're making that, that same deficiency is, is to listen, listen to the, the advice, the wisdom, the contrast, the opposite, the same, listen to all of it. Let it, let it, let it influence your life in ways that are going to be positive and also ways that are going to, that are going to be able to keep you, you know, from making mistakes. So I think the 20 year old Eric should have been a much better listener. I think I just, I moved so fast, James, that I think I, I could have probably made the transition, uh, into who I am today, age 30, instead of at age, you know, 45 or 50, if I would have listened, you know? Yeah. The other thing came to me, uh, one class that I took from you that I've never forgotten. And it was right before Brett gives his last question and we'd be done, uh, was by concentric circles of concerns. Yeah. Any principles are few methods may change, but principles never do. And when you, when you were talking about earlier about steps that you would take, you know, changing some methodology and helping churches go that way. It reminded me of that because methods are many, we can do things, bus routes. We can do Sunday school. We can do small groups. We can do home groups. We can do whatever you want. There are going to be tons of methods. As long as the principal, what did Jack house say, uh, keep the main thing, the main thing, right. We got to continue to keep the main thing, the main thing, the gospel as the gospel. Right. Amen. Love it. Well, Eric, uh, just a little context to this last question. We want to give you an opportunity to speak directly to our listeners. Now, before I give you that opportunity, I want to read you just a little bit of our mission statement. The mission statement of the podcast is the for freedom podcast exists to bring the message of Galatians five, one to those in the body of Christ that have been trapped in the legalism of the IFB. It's our goal to expose legalism, help those who have been abused, encourage them in God's grace. Now that's our listener base. And I want to give you an opportunity to give them a final thought, give them some encouragement. We've got listeners who are still in the IFB who are transitioning out, who are out now and, and looking for something. And I just want you to give you one last opportunity to give them some encouragement. Well, thank you, man. I, I will, I'm honored to be able to do that. And, and again, as I answered this last question, thank the both of you. I think you've done a great job with this interview. I've enjoyed it. I, I've, I feel as if I've benefited myself that I've not just given answers, but that I have also received, you know, the, the, the way you've asked the answers and cultivated this conversation has encouraged me that there are some young men like yourselves, man, that are, that are really standing in the gap and, and this, there's a bright future for the, for the work of God as we move forward. And so thank you guys for this. It's been amazing. As I, as I think about your question, Brad, and your listener base and how you framed the mission and response to this answer, you know, there's, there's always things that I look back on. And I would say this to every listener that things that, that maybe a bad memory or a situation that I could choose, uh, to continue to, to, to pick at, or to refer back to, or to live in, or to complain about, or to, uh, even I'll say it, you know, to gossip about, you know, cause that's, that's, that's something I feel like is, is happens oftentimes when we get together and, and we, we sort of rehash the past and there's a lot of mistakes that have been made by, by people that we love and people that we, we respected people that we followed. I get all that. And, but what has helped me to shape my attitude and my vision and my, my, uh, my positivity, if you will, if you know, my optimism about ministry is that I don't look back. I feel like that there is a principle in scripture that is often taught by Paul, by Jesus. And of course it was taught by Paul. He got it from Jesus. No man putting his hand to the plow and looking back. Paul said, I, I, I, he talked about, he presses towards the mark for the pride. I think what I would say to your listeners is as independent Baptist, yes, we have a past and we can look back at that and see so much garbage and trash and problems and issues. And, but, and, and, and, and prayerfully there's also some good things we can see. Okay. But I think if we live our lives with a, I'm going to follow Jesus forward. I'm going to follow him forward. I'm not going back and rehashing and re talking and remembering and re I'm going to look forward. Yes. I, I've got some things that I regret or some things, some people that I particularly don't really care to have listened to another sermon. They preach, you know, I've got that too, by the way, everybody. But I feel as if, if we would have an attitude of, of, of, of scripture, that is, we're looking forward to the coming of Christ. We're looking forward to the next soul that saved. We're looking forward to the next great book. That's going to be written. We're looking forward to the next, you know, sermon we're, we're going to hear all that to say, I think that would help all of us to kind of, as I see it, one of the negatives that I see in some podcasts and some, and, and, and some of the issues that people seem to have is that they can't seem to let go of that because it's kind of become part of their identity versus recognizing that don't allow the past to become your identity. Allow what God is doing now, what he's work, you know, the work he's doing now in your life. So, um, for me, that's helped me a lot, you know, I love it. We put it on the podcast like this. Everyone comes to a fork in the road and they either choose to live in the bitterness and the hate, or they choose to live in grace and comfort that God gives us. Yeah. We, when we go through the route of bitterness, we live in the cycle of that. And so it's that fork in the road moment. Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? And, uh, it's a great thing. Eric, thanks. Yeah. And by no means on that right there, just to know, I'm not dismissing. Missing the hurt, the pain. I get it. Yeah. I don't, I don't want anybody to think that at all. It's not like I'm being over positive because sometimes I can be, I get it. I mean, sometimes, you know, I could be overoptimistic, but I am saying that very carefully and gingerly and lovingly just saying what you just said, James, that fork is a very important moment in all of our lives. You've been there, Brett, you've been there. I've been there. All right. I'm sorry. You can close it out. You're great, man. Thanks for coming on. We appreciate all you've done, uh, even for me and my family and Eric, uh, Brett and his life. And, uh, uh, appreciate you've been a friend, uh, in many different times that I've had. Thank you. And, uh, I always appreciate those texts and calls we, we have together. And so until next time to God, be the glory. Yes, sir. Great things. He is. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning. Has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. Found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast.tletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletletle

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