124. Freedom In The Church - Dress Attire

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Seyfried and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. It is a blessing to be back in the hot seat, to be back in the hot chair with my man Brett and recording today. And man, these last couple of episodes have been fantastic for me. Man, who'd have thought we would have been able to interview Bob Coughlin. Man, I just thoroughly enjoyed that conversation with him. And the conversation is coming up in the future. We've got Marcus Merrick coming on. We've got Brian Edwards coming on. We've got a couple other guys that we're trying to work on to get in here. And we are excited about the next couple of weeks and months of this season of the podcast. We're talking through in the church. But Brett, how are you doing? How's your family doing? Good to be able to see you again. And we've got some future things coming up as well. We had such a good response from the last episode with Bob Coughlin. And I just want to say before we move forward that, you know, I enjoyed that thoroughly. So glad we got a chance to talk to him. Brought so much to the table. It gave us a lot to think about. But, man, life has just been good. You know, things are busy here. And we're getting geared up. We've got some mission trips in our church coming up. And then on that side, and then on the other side, the kids have been busy. And we've had beta club meetings and shooting sports meetings and, you know, teen activity meetings and all this stuff. So busy, busy season of life. But I would much rather be busy than sit at the house, you know, at least doing stuff. Just went to an evangelism training last night at the local First Baptist Church in our county. Don Lomb. He's the evangelism director for Mississippi Baptist Convention Board for the state of Mississippi. And he came and did some evangelism training last night. Took note, took note after note after note, page after page. Got a lot of good stuff that we can apply to our church and our community. Looking forward to implementing that. But, man, life's been good. Ministry's been good. And I've got no complaints. Love it. Yeah. And I'll echo what you said. I've loved the feedback from the last couple of episodes and continue to reach out to us on our social media platforms. If you go back to episode 30 or 40 or something, I've got my cell phone number on there. You're welcome to reach out to me via that way. And it's been great. I actually had a – I'm supposed to be having an interview, a talk with a lady of a podcast that just recently started. She's been able to share her story a little bit on there and looking at people that have been out of our world, out of the IFB, to be able to come on and talk about where they're at and what they've went through. So excited about that. And then, Brett, I didn't even tell you this. I had a guy that called me, and he is starting a podcast. And he just said, hey, can you give me some help, some advice on how we can do a podcast? Like how – not me and him, but how him and some friends are going to do a podcast and just some basic things. And this Friday coming up, man, tomorrow when this thing comes out, I'm going to be at a local high school in the area, West Wilkes High. And they're having me come in and do a seminar on podcasts and podcasting, how to get a podcast started, how to begin the process of all that. So, man, I'm just excited. Originally, it was going to be public speaking as a pastor. How do you get up and do public speaking? And then it sort of morphed into, hey, why don't you come and do – because it's called a who, world of opportunities. And so they bring in people from all different shapes and sizes and areas of expertise. And so apparently I'm an expertise in podcasting. I don't know how that is. But I'm going to come in and bring in all my recording equipment. And so it's going to be a great time in the community of just being able to share. For me, it's going to be an opportunity for me to share the gospel with these kids, how we are able to share the gospel through the microwaves, radio waves, whatever you want to call podcasting these days, internet waves. I don't know. And so it's going to be great. I'm looking forward to it. Very cool. Very cool. I lost a battle against a slushie last night. Oh. So I have a root canal and a crown scheduled for tomorrow, which, yay. Amen. And then last night I decided, you know what, I've been doing really good on the diet that I've been on, and I thought I'd treat myself. So I got me, went to Sonic and got me a slush with nerds. And so I'm chomping on those nerds. Oh, no. And then when I get done with the drink, I look up and half my tooth is broken off of the tooth that I'm supposed to get a root canal on. So I'm glad that's scheduled tomorrow. Wow. But that's cool about, you know, podcasting. I mean, you are the expert podcaster, and I think that's great. But that is a good opportunity. You know, you think about the culture and this generation, you know, they eat stuff like that up. Oh, yeah. And it's just a great opportunity for you. So that's really good. Well, I heard a stat this morning, Brett, as I was driving around listening to one of my favorite podcasts that you got me hooked on. But they made a statement that said in the world of podcasting and in the world of Patreon, Patreon is a company that you can register with and have exclusive things for your podcast and everything. I think they said there's over 250,000 Patreon accounts. Wow. That's on Patreon. That's a quarter of a million organizations that are saying, hey, we're doing a thing and we want you to be a part of it. And can you give in this this way or that way? And so the world of podcasting is huge. And so we just have a little sliver of just being able to share hope and help for the gospel and through Galatians 5, 1, where we are able to give hope and help and freedom through the gospel because Christ has set us free. Amen. So what we got going on? We got a couple of things coming up June. We've got some things in November. We've got some things in March of next year. What's going on, man? All right. The next thing we have on our agenda is the going to the National Southern Baptist Convention. And that's going to be in Indianapolis this year. And we're going to be close enough to the Holy Land to go pay homage and burn incense at the mausoleum of Jack Hiles and offer up an El Amigo burrito. Shout out to my fellow Highlanders. But no, seriously, we're going to be there at the Southern Baptist Convention. And we're going to rent a house and record an episode, hopefully be able to record an episode with our wives and want to get them on there and look excited, excited about that and ready to get that done. And then after the Southern Baptist Convention, we have, I think we've got Catoosa, right? Yeah, Catoosa in November and looking forward to the RFP meetup, being able to meet more and more of the family and be able to hang out with some of those ones that were in Asheville and some of those ones that were in even Danville. And, you know, every single one has been different, different people, different groups of people, may have just met new people, people that I've seen their names, but didn't really know who they were. And so that's one of the cool things about our meetups that we do is just being able to be around like-minded brothers and sisters and be able to share our stories with each other. And so I'm looking forward to that. Seeing the pictures behind you as I'm sitting here, decorating my office and pulling out some of those things. Man, I'm just so excited about being able to be back in the Holy Lands, be back where Jesus walked. Man, just giving that talk and that presentation again and just sort of reignited some of those memories that I had, reignited some questions that was asked to me, and I was able to talk through some things. Man, it was just an awesome, awesome time. Man, just think about it. If it wasn't for, you know, unmitigating circumstances and the war and such, we would be in Israel right now. I thought about this Sunday morning as I was preaching. It's like, we would be in Israel right this very second. So, yeah, it does give me a little, you know, a motivation. I'm excited about next year. I think the next trip we've got planned a year from now is going to be even better than the one that we planned for this year. Yeah. And I think I've already had more interest in it. People are chomping to get back as soon as they're able, as soon as they open tourism back up in the country. People are chomping at the bit to get back. And so can't wait for that. But I do need to address one thing before we move forward, and that is we did have an issue with one of our episodes. We've had some criticism. We've had some pushback. And it is something that, you know, we do need to address. And I want to publicly come on here and address it. We got some pushback because we like, because we mentioned casting crowns. We got some pushback because of, because we mentioned Creed. Three doors down, man. Come on now. I mean, they just, they just don't understand what good music is. They don't, man. I was, after that episode, we recorded it, Brett, on the way home. I've got a 25-minute ride on the way home. I listened to Creed and Three Doors Down the entire way home. Like, it was, I was reminiscing of being back in my teenage high school years of rocking out to Three Doors Down and Kryptonite and Let Me Be Myself. Oh, man, it was, it was, I was, I was a great time. Yeah, I was, I was watching. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. Well, good stuff. Good stuff. So we, is that everything we've got coming up? I think so, yeah. We've got some, those things coming up and got some great interviews lined up for the future, but we'll let you guys be on the edge of that a little bit. So, Brett, what's, what are we talking about today? Give us the intro. We are in, we are still in our series, In the Church. And the subject we're going to be dealing with today is clothing, is dress in the church. And this is an area that, you know, especially for me, for so many years, I was taught wrong. I was, I was taught the wrong thing. And I was taught that you had to dress a certain way and you had to honor God in a certain way. And if you didn't wear these clothes to church, you know, God wouldn't approve of you and God wouldn't love you. And you didn't measure up and you didn't tick off the rules. And there were so many things, rules we had to abide by and certain ways we had to dress. And we were kind of, you know, ostracized if we didn't obey the rules. And, you know, it was just so confusing for us. And my wife, for instance, my wife, you know, until just, you know, just a few years ago, just always wore dresses. And everywhere she went, she had to wear skirts and things like that. And then, man, for years, I didn't even wear shorts until just recently. And so we're kind of still coming out of this, you know, we were starting coming out of this IFB legalistic mindset of the way you should dress. And we just had a wrong thinking. And, you know, as we're putting this thing together, we're thinking so many other people out there, just like us, they're coming out of this legalistic mindset. They're coming out of this church culture where you have to tick off all the boxes and you have to look a certain way and you have to dress a certain way in order for God to approve of you. And we want to put some material out there. We want to put some content out there that addresses what does the Bible have to say about how you should dress in church? Because it's a big issue. Our culture has made it a big issue. And it's something that's needed to be addressed. And I'm glad we're addressing it right now. Yeah, it's a topic, man, Brett. We have, we can see the analytics of the different episodes and the things that have been put out. And to this day, the number one episode that we've ever released is with Amy Miller on modesty of dress. And so it's, it's a topic that people want to talk about, they want to hear about. And we're going to discuss it today in a different sense of what we discussed with Amy. Amy sort of gave her testimony and talked through that. And you can go back and listen to that episode if you want. But man, what a, what an awesome opportunity for us to be able to discuss this because so often we have said things. We have done things that were unbiblical. We have done things that didn't line up with scripture. And we were just saying things because people had said it before. We're going to talk through that in a minute. But I want to share just a personal story with me. I've shared this before when I've been preaching. And so it's nothing new if you've listened to me before. But we grew up in a moderately IFB, people today call it IFB light. Didn't have a big strong standard on dress. Men and women could, we could go swimming together. We went to the movie theater. Like there wasn't a lot of legalism that was going on. And our pastor had left. There was some things that went on. We got a new pastor in. And I was a, I want to say a senior in high school, listening three doors down, you know, just the best days of our lives, right? And so we, I was at football practice. It was in the summer. Went to football practice, left from football practice. We were decorating for vacation Bible school. I don't know if y'all decorated for vacation Bible school like this, but we had these massive cardboard, like 10 foot by five foot panels. And we would paint them. We would put a projector on them and trace different things. And we did these massive scenes down the wall with them as a kid. We had a lot of wall area. We would decorate the stage with them. And so as a teenager, you know, there's a lot of like prep work that needed to be done. We didn't have the money to buy these stage designs that people buy these days. And so as a teenager, I would volunteer and I was helping. And so one day I left from football practice. It was hot, sweaty. And I had to go to work just right down the road from the church. And so I thought, you know, I had some friends that were there painting and getting things ready. I'm going to stop in on my way to work, help give some, you know, an hour, two hours of painting and then head to work and, you know, just keep on going. And so left football practice, had my football shorts on, threw a T-shirt on. I knew I was going to paint, so it didn't matter what clothes I had on. And I went to walk into the church and there were two entrances. And as I got out of my truck and was walking in, the pastor came out from the front door. And, you know, I was like, hey, pastor, excited about being there. And he grabbed me by the shoulder. I'll never forget this as far as I can remember. He grabbed me by the shoulder. He looked me in the eyes and he said, how dare you think you're going to walk into God's house wearing that clothing? And I just sort of stepped back for a moment. It was like, pastor, I won't say his name. I said, pastor, I said, I'm just coming from football practice, about to head to work. I said, we're coming to paint. I said, do you want me in a suit right now? Like, I'm coming to paint and get dirty. He was like, how dare you disrespect God by walking in his house dressed like that? I was like, all right, man. Well, whatever. I got work to do. Like, I got things to be done. Walked on past him, went on in, did what I had to do for a couple hours, then went to work. But that whole day, even like after that, I'm thinking, man, was I wrong? Like, should I have been dressed nicer? Like, I was going for a work day. Like, I was going just to help. You know, as an 18-year-old boy, 17-year-old boy, this thought of, was I wrong? Was I living in sin in that moment? Was I doing something that God looked down upon and said, you're wrong. You should have been dressed like this because the pastor just told me I was wrong. And so that was one of the first and really the only experience in dress-wise that someone ever said something to me in a hard manner. And we want to address some of those things. But, Brett, that's sort of where I was at. And like I said, our church wasn't like that. But he came in and sort of made the church like that. I can just one. Your story reminded me of something not that bad that happened to me. But I remember I was at a camp, and I had already started to preach by this time. And I remember one of the leaders, one of the pastors at the camp telling me that I needed, as a pastor, as a preacher, I needed to dress a step above everybody else. He said, number one, it doesn't matter if everybody wears a T-shirt. You should always wear a collar. If they wear a polo, you wear a button-up. If they wear a button-up, you put on a shirt and a tie. If they put on a shirt and a tie, you put on a suit. And you always had to be a step above the people that you were ministering to. And reading over some of the scripture we have today, reading over some of the points we're going to bring out today, that logic is so flawed. And it's a travesty what happened to you there. But it's a symptom of a bigger problem. That's not just in IFB churches. No, it's not. There's even so many Southern Baptist churches that are very legalistic in this area. And I'm just glad we're addressing this today. Yeah. That step above reminds me of Jesus in his dress and how he presented himself here on the earth. Exactly. Yeah. So I just don't know why we don't get back to the as biblically historic as we can and just walk around naked all the time. You know, I've got a three-year-old boy who turns three in a couple weeks. And he's like, Dad, why can't I be naked all the time? Like, I just want to run around naked. And, you know, he's just he's trying to be biblical. He's trying to be like his great, great whatever Adam and Eve who ran around naked all the time. So, I mean, he's he's trying to he's at least he's trying to follow the Bible. So I love it. Exactly. So I think how we should kick this off is I'm going to ask you a question. And then you bring us into our kind of comments, notes that we have for today, some things. And the question is, James, should we wear our Sunday best or should we have the attitude come as you are? Because this is the big debate, is it not? Well, what do you think about that? Yeah, absolutely. And some of these things we're getting from Christianity dot com. There was an article put out, so we thought some of the things were really good. But one of the things the question that that gets asked us often, my brother is going to be at church this coming Sunday at my church. He's coming in. He's bringing the camper from Charlotte. He texted me yesterday, Brett, and said this. He said, hey, jeans and a polo. Is that all right to come to church in? And this is my response. It's more than OK. I said, I have multiple men in overalls every Sunday at church. Right. I said, I said, why does it matter? I didn't say this to him. I said, but in my mind, I'm thinking, why does it matter? Like, just come to church. Like, I don't care what you're wearing. Just come to church. And so you're wearing that to church, sort of the question that gets asked often. Children and teenagers across the world have heard the question asked them on countless times. It's one of the most common stereotypes. Well, I can't come to church because I don't have anything nice to wear. I don't have anything fancy to wear to church. My when my mom and dad got married, my mom got pregnant with my sister, my oldest sister. My dad was working at a place called Hercelanese, Kosa, Fiber. It's been like 25 different names. And one of the guys, they actually their their house, their their trailer they lived in butted to the church. It was a fence. And the church was on the other side of the property and massive church time. And they were invited to church. And this is what my dad said to my mom. My dad said to the guy that invited him. My wife's eight months pregnant. She doesn't have anything nice to wear to church. This is his response. Just put on some clothes and come to church. So he came home and he said, hey, honey, got invited to this church. They're right here. Literally, we can walk to it like we're not burning gas. Do you want to go? Her response was, I don't have anything to wear to church. And he said he told us that we can just come as we are, like wear whatever you got. Like, it's OK. And so they next Sunday, they put on their clothes. They went to church because they didn't. You know, they just they felt like they could do that. And all of a sudden we get this point where we have this phrase, wear your Sunday best, wear your Sunday best. I'm going to put on my Sunday best. This phrase is used in the culture today to athletes and basketball players in the public school. They'll say, OK, today, men, you're going to wear your Sunday best because it's game day. What does that mean? You put on a shirt and tie. And I know of lots of almost every high school that I've been a part of in in ministry, their boys, when it's time for game day, they'll wear a shirt and tie to the school that day and they'll dress up every they'll be dressed up for the whole day of school because it's the mindset of where we're serious today. We're not just going to be playing around. But the Bible does say a lot about what we should wear. And so where did this idea come from, Brett? Where does the idea that we should wear our Sunday best come from? Well, there's a few different areas that something like this comes from. And I think the first area we need to talk about is tradition. Now, I want to say that this reminds me a lot of a story that Nathan told on the RFP podcast about how he invited this family to church. And then when they showed up, he was wearing a three piece suit and they just like felt so out of place and never, you know, they never come back because of that. And the reason why I remember that story that Nathan told was because I've experienced that so much when I used to, you know, I used to invite people to church and then come to church and I'd come out and I'd see them and I'd be in a suit and tie and I'd get that look. And, you know, so many times. So I felt that what Nathan experienced, I've definitely felt that so many times people feeling out of place because of the way I dressed in church. But I think tradition is probably one of the first places that this idea comes from, because probably the most common reason why church goers dress a certain way is because of tradition, because their grandparents did it, because their parents did it, because that's the way they used to do it in the 1950s. And that's the way that they were taught. And in this case, it's common for no one to really know why they wear certain clothes, you know, like suit and tie for men, dresses and skirts for women. They do it just because they've always done it. It's ingrained in their mind. It's how they were raised, you know, from their memories going back as kids. They just always saw people dress up. You know, we've got pictures in our church of, you know, people that came to church in the, you know, the 30s and the 40s and the 50s. And they had the suit, the tie, the hat. The problem with this approach, you know, of tradition, it do it, doing it just because we've always done it this way. Is it shallow and it's superficial? And then in the cases when you have somebody that breaks that tradition, oh, they're seen as a rebel. They're automatically looked down on because they're not dressed like everywhere else, even if their heart's in the right place. You know, I've seen bikers that are closer to God than men that are wearing suits and ties. You know, and anyone that breaks, they could break this tradition, you know, maybe they're new and they've never been taught the tradition. Or maybe they don't own the right clothes. You know, sometimes you go into places and they don't have suits and they don't have ties. And they don't even own slacks. And the only thing they have, the best thing they have to wear, you know, is a pair of blue jeans. And in many churches, the tradition of wearing certain types of clothes to worship service is kind of an unspoken expectation. Like, for instance, your pastor told you that. But in a lot of cases, just kind of this unspoken rule, you don't wear anything else but this to church. And if you do, you get the eyeballs and you get the side eye and people are going to look at you. And so it's this unspoken expectation. If somebody, you know, breaks that tradition, you know, somebody is going to call them out or the pastor might say something passive aggressively from the pulpit, which I've seen tons of time that the pastor wouldn't call somebody out, point somebody out. But they would say something passive aggressively from the pulpit. And everybody knows who they're talking about. I remember my church growing up. I used to hear all the time. Oh, I was turned away at that church because, you know, I wasn't wearing a dress. I was turned away, you know, at your church because I was wearing pants. They told me not to come in. And for so many years, while I never personally saw that, for so many years, I defended my church like, no, they don't do that. They don't do that. But over all the years and all the different people that I've heard say that, you know, I give credit to it. I wouldn't put it past them. Yeah, I've told you this story before. And then we'll go on to the next one. But there was a change. This one kid, I remember there was a kid in church. And my buddy had invited him on the church bus and been working on this teenager and working on this teenager and trying to get him to come to church. And finally, this teenager decided to come to church. He goes into church. He sits in the pew. And he's got a hat on. And, you know, it's, you know, the unpardonable sin to wear a ball cap in church. And there was a man in this church that went to this kid, snatched the hat off of his head, threw the hat in his chest and said, boy, we don't wear hats in the church. And, you know, that's just ask me if that kid ever came to church again. The kid never did. He never darkened the door of of a church again. And then you have these traditions where the pastor has to has to wear a tie. And if he's not wearing a tie, he's not doing his job. And so this idea, you know, you know, wear your Sunday best. Why are you wearing that to church? A lot of it comes from tradition. Yeah. And I'll go a step further and say, you know, the church that you're talking about and the church that I was at, they may have never preached, you know, wear a certain type of dress. And they may have never even called out one of those women or men that was dressed like that. But women have this really, really weird sense of intuition that when someone's looking at them a little weird or someone's talking about them, they can sense it. And it was oftentimes where those women that said, yeah, it was it was it was preached to get or talked about. They just knew that they saw and they felt the women of the church were judging them because of what they were wearing. And that's the sense that we've got to break down those things. We've got Jesus didn't look at the woman that came to him with an issue of blood who had been bleeding for seven years or however long it was and spent all of her money and went to all the doctors and came to him and was going to reach the edge of his garment. He didn't stop to around say, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no. You need to be dressed right before you can come and touch me. No, he's he turned in with love in his eyes. Like that's when Jesus addressed people was with he met them where they were at. He didn't say, you know, go get fixed up. And never we hear that. Nowhere ever we hear this, that that once we get saved, we've got to begin to dress a certain way. Or, you know, we've we've heard that from people that have preached is once they get saved, they'll start cutting their hair. Once they get saved, then they'll start dressing right. I don't see that. I don't see that in scripture. And we'll talk through a bunch of scripture here in a little bit. But the next thing we look at is culture. Another reason for a certain dress code for church services is because of culture. For example, the cultural roles of the church might be a three piece suit. It might be business casual with slacks and an Oxford shirt with the robe and certain colors and patterns might be a biker garb for a dress with a bonnet or any other specific. Style cultural standards for dress in church services are found all across the world. They often coincide with normal standards of dress and appearance of specific culture, which makes complete sense. You know, you think about it, Brett. If a woman in a certain culture always wears a dress when they're out in public, then it makes sense for them to continue that same trend while they come to church because it's out in public. It's the normal thing for them to do. However, the confusion and even frustration for someone, especially someone younger, especially someone who barely is making enough to provide for their family, they're barely making enough for them to get by, comes to a church with a much different set of cultural expectations. Then when they are at church, then during the rest of their life. Now, all of a sudden they've got to go out and they've got to buy a whole new set of war road just to come to church. They've got to sacrifice in other areas where they may not have to find an area of sacrifice that the Bible tells us to sacrifice in for our clothes. And then all of a sudden the church, if they're not careful, this cultural reason can easily turn into pride as one of the attendees tries to outdress someone, outstyle someone, and even out-accessorize other people because they're trying to draw attention to self. Look at how spiritual I am. Look at how I have become so much different than the world because I'm dressing this way and the world is dressing another way. And the world is the way they're dressing Monday through Saturday. But yet when they come to Sunday, they dress a completely different thing. It's almost like Jesus when he said you're hypocrites because you're like whitewashed tombs. You just get dressed up on the day you're in public. But every other day you're like dead man's bones on the inside. It's like that's what Jesus is telling the church today. Every other day of the week you dress one way, but then when it comes Sunday you just transform into this whole different person. Because you want this sense of spirituality to come over you because you're dressed in a certain way. And so culture has this massive, massive influence on the way we dress. You know, you say that about spending money when you don't have the money. It reminds me that when I was at Hiles Anderson, the big thing, the big popular thing was floor shime dress shoes. Black polished to a mirror shine. Military. Right. And that was because Jack Hiles wore floor shime. So if you didn't have floor shimes, then you were, you know, you weren't cool. You had to have the floor shimes. And I remember I spent my last hundred dollars on a pair of floor shimes. My buddy was so mad at me because we were driving home and we didn't have money to eat on. But I had my floor shimes. And those were some of the most uncomfortable junkie shoes. Didn't even last me a year. Taught me a valuable lesson. But, you know, when growing up, we were called Bapticostals at our church. Oh, that's the church with the skirts. And there was a stigma about our church. It turned people away. And you're right about, especially at our church, I mean, it was the thing. It was a standard. It was a standard. Once in a blue moon, my pastor would preach on it. But he would never, like, preach regularly on it, especially if we had a lot of visitors in the church. I remember this one time we had, you know, we had grown a little bit. We had some families in the church, some visitors. And a preacher boy got up and said something about women wearing pants. And the pastor said amen. And then after that service, like three or four families left the church. You know, it just wasn't a very popular thing. But it's still, they still believe to it. And part of the reason for that is our third idea where this comes from is scripture. You know, another reason why some people think that Christians should dress up for church service is because of their misunderstanding or misunderstanding of scripture. You know, it's been a common approach for many years to look at, you know, the ornate dress code of the priests in the Old Testament, especially when they enter the tabernacle. I mean, we're looking back in Exodus 28 for this. And then cook up some kind of doctrine for their church that requires everyone to wear extra nice, unique clothing. And if not everyone, the upfront leaders, the leaders of the church, that's kind of where that step above thing came from that I was taught growing up. And because of this, you know, churches, some churches spend a lot of money buying their pastors' designers' suits, expensive shoes. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've been in kind of a larger church. And for his birthday, the church would get the pastor a suit and get him some shoes and all this kind of stuff, or maybe even unique robes in some other churches. But the problem with this reason, however, is that making a modern application of an Old Testament law is out of context. It's something called eisegesis. And what that is is when we apply our own meaning to a text, okay? We're no longer in Old Testament tabernacle or temple worship. Because of what Jesus did for us, we're all priests before God. And there was no precedent set by Jesus or any of the apostles in the New Testament to dress any certain kind of way. We don't see that. In fact, it seems that Jesus normally dressed down to the point where he stood out in a crowd because of what he was wearing, not because it was some ornate thing like the Pharisees, but because, you know, Jesus and his apostles, they were nomads. They would go from, you know, place to place. You know, I know that, I don't think I told you this, maybe I have, but both colleges I went to, Howes, Anderson, and Tri-State, both colleges, Tony Hudson criticized me for what I was wearing. In chapel, both times, same tan shirt. The first time I did it, because I didn't know he would say anything about it, I'm wearing a tan beige shirt. He walks by and says, son, if you put a little bleach on that, it can turn white. Well, that was at Howes, Anderson. When I went to Tri-State, I wore the same shirt to chapel to see if he would make the same joke. And while he didn't crack the same joke, he still eyeballed my tan shirt and shook his head. Just, you know, just, and what that comes from is that priestly garb, out of context, extra-biblical nonsense. You know, they're mixing their fabrics, you know, so you can't, they're just picking shoes, what verses they want to justify this kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And that's where the fearfulness of always making sure we're staying as close to Scripture as we can is so protective to us, because if not, we get to this point where we're able to say whatever we want and however we want and take whatever Scripture we have and twist it and turn it into whatever we want. You did make one statement, and you mixed up your words. I just want to clarify what you were saying was that it seemed that Jesus normally dressed down to the point that he never stood out in the crowd. You said that he dressed so that he stood out in the crowd. But he never stood out. Yeah, yeah. He was, Jesus was, they said that he looked like a commoner. You couldn't just say, oh, yep, that's the Messiah right there. No, he walked with the crowds, and no one noticed him until he began teaching and preaching and doing miracles. Exactly. And it was his actions that were causing the difference, not necessarily what he was wearing. The last thing, and Brad, I'm going to do the first portion of this and then flip it over to you, and then I'll get some things on it. But the last one here is respect. So we've looked at tradition, culture, Scripture, but then respect. A lot of people will say, well, I'm going to dress a certain way for church service because it's respectful. It's the right thing to do. And depending on who you ask, it might be respect for the church building in similar ways where someone might say, well, it's respectful of a library when you go into a library to be quiet and to be respectful. And others will say, well, it's the same thing. I'm respectful toward God. However, while this is reasoning of respect might be noble and come from a heart of wanting to obey, the church building is not just a building since the actual church are the people that are gathering. And so you've got to begin to ask yourself, the people that are gathering within is the church itself. You meet in a small group of the church in someone's house and you go over for dinner. Are you going to wear the same attire that you wore on Sunday, your three-piece suit with your dress shine shoes to that person's house? Or are you going to sort of dress down a little bit? It's still the church gathering where two or three are gathered in my name. Again, that's talking about the context of church discipline. But in the same context here of the church is gathering. And so when the church gathers, you should, if you're going to take this stance of respect, then you should dress in that same way anytime you're around believers are the same thing. And so, of course, someone may say, for example, they respect the building and what it stands for, which probably takes us back to the scripture of tradition. So we've got to look at this and say maybe as we go and we look at the respect of God through the tradition of what the priest wore and we're representations of the priest now because what Christ has done for us, I'm going to give an exterior, an external side of what's in my heart. God told prophet Samuel, the Lord sees not man, not as man sees man, but the Lord looks on the heart. And so it's not necessarily what we have on the outside, but it's how our actions are on the inside. Many times someone dresses a certain way to church and to the services because it's what others think, which can lead to a very bad reason or even a good reason. We'll explain it like this. Some passages, God told Samuel to look at the heart. He also explained that man looks on the outward appearance. It's no surprise that why this whole issue of dress leads to tension between pride and humility, standing out versus blending in the tradition versus rebellion that we just looked at. Now, the point that there is just dress. I'm sorry. And the point that here is not just dress of what people want to expect you to dress, but to begin to develop an environment in our churches where everyone respects each other to the point that no one dresses to offend or distract others. Brad, I'm going to read one more thought here and then turn it over to you. We get a picture of this mentality from Paul's letter in Corinthians. He told the Corinthians at Corinth to have a separate issue, referring to a separate issue. And he took great care in our rights or freedoms not to call someone to be a stumbling block to the weak or to the weaker brother. And so, Brad, I'm going to switch over to you because what does this mean, us to be a stumbling block to a brother that's weaker than us? You know, forcing someone else to adhere to your personal conviction is it's it's legalism. It's a violation of their sole competence. It's a violation of their sole liberty. You know, you are not to lord over somebody else. You're not the lord over somebody else. You know, you're not their mediator between them and Jesus. You're not to, you know, Jesus is the lord of your life. Let Jesus be the lord of their life, too. They may have, you know, stronger standards than you. Well, that's not that's not for you to pass judgment on their opinions. And but you're also not supposed to wound them with your liberty at the same time. So there's a balance when it comes to this thing of personal conviction. Listen, I was consumed so much with what everybody else was wearing. You know, my tie, I had to have the tie just right. I had to have the special knot. I can't tell you how many times I spent retying the same tie over and over and over where it would hit in the right spot. And then if I didn't have the right kind of shirt on, my collar would flip up. And I was just so consumed with what I was wearing that that it was just taken over. And I was coming to church not concerned about worshiping God. But I was coming to church concerned with what other people saw me wearing. And listen, when it comes to this subject of, you know, being a stumbling block to the weak, if we're not careful with this, we will sin not just against our brothers or sister, but will sin against Christ as well. The idea of respect is also why Paul tells his understudy Timothy to instruct the women in his church to dress not with braided hair or and gold or pearls or costly attire. And instead wear respectable apparel and dress with modesty and self-control and put the emphasis on good works instead of good clothing. You know, respecting others might mean that in some settings, men wear jeans and a T-shirt. And in other settings, they may wear dress pants and a sport coat. Or it might mean that women wear dress and with a hair up or they might wear normal pants with a blouse and their hair down. You know, respecting others also means that we begin to care less about style and color and fabric and what we wear. And instead care more about not being a distraction to others, not showing off our wealth and not making others uncomfortable by dressing immodestly or sloppily. Yeah. And, you know, Brett, thinking through that, a couple of things came to my mind, a couple of things I shared with you before the show. But then one just came to my mind just a minute ago. I was listening to a podcast on John MacArthur and like him or not, has been in ministry for over 50 years at the same church. He's done, he's preached to the entire New Testament. You may not agree with him theologically or where he stands, but his faithfulness and enduring in ministry is something that I look forward to and want in my ministry as well. But one of the things that was mentioned was, you know, he's, he's an old school. He wears suit and tie every Sunday. But they said that when he was doing youth meetings and he was preaching in camps, he didn't wear those shirt and ties to the camps. He would wear a ball cap and he'd wear a polo shirt. He'd look, you know, look like he was going on the golf course, still nice dressed, but it just dressed down to the appropriate setting of where he was at. Had a pastor, a friend of mine who would preach in Hawaii every year. When he would go to Hawaii, he would wear Bermuda shorts and a Hawaiian silk t-shirt because everyone in that culture wears that. And he said, if, if I were to wear a suit and tie, I would stand out. And it would be to the point of detriment because people would be like, who is this crazy guy? It's 87, 90 degrees with a hundred percent humidity. And he's got a suit and tie on. Like, why would he wear that? And then the, the most personal one for me, Brett, I went to mission to India when my son was born 10 years ago. And in India, whenever they enter any type of worship house, a Buddhist temple, a Hindu temple, again, they believe in reincarnation. So they would take their shoes off because if they stepped on a bug and they would be committing murder to maybe an ancestor that got reincarnated, whatever that is. But it was their culture of anytime they were in a place that was of holy reverence to take their shoes off, even though they weren't worshiping the bugs and, and reincarnation, it was still ingrained in their culture. So I get there and it was time for us to go to one of the services and, uh, justice, man. Well, the, the man that was in the, the guy that planted these churches, he took us into a church. When I say a church, it was about as big as my office right now. And there was no windows, no doors. It was just an open air building. And, uh, we went to walk in and, and all the shoes of everyone were outside the, the, the walkway. And I said, justice, why do they have their shoes off? And he said, well, he says culture. He says what they do here. I said, do I have to take my shoes off? He said, no, no, no, you don't have to. He said, but when you get up to speak, if your shoes are on, they won't listen to you. I said, what? He said, yeah. He said the culture here is that's how they show a sign of respect. That's how they show their reverence to the one they're worshiping. And of course they're worshiping the ones who God knows where in scriptures and said they have to do that, but it's their way of worship. And he said, so you, you welcome to do whatever you want. He said, but just know if you want them to listen to what you have to say, you probably should take your shoes off because it's going to relate to them. You're going to show that you care about their culture enough. And I say all that to say this. It's not that we come in to change the culture of the people around them. We come in to share the gospel and allow the gospel to change their heart, allow the gospel to change their mindset of what they view. And is it wrong for me to take my shoes off? No. Is it wrong for me to wear a floor length, if I'm a woman, to wear a floor length dress? No. No. But it's your own personal standard of conviction and holiness as you begin to go through your life. Practically speaking, God does care what we wear to church, not because it affects him, because it affects his other children. And he's saying here, listen, if what you're wearing is going to cause your brother or sister to be distracted, then don't wear it. If what you're wearing is going to cause your brother or sister to think differently, be the more mature Christian and wear what is appropriate. I have no problem with wearing Crocs and shorts and a polo to church on a Wednesday night. And most Wednesday nights I will. But if I've got a brother that comes up to me and says, pastor, I just, I can't, I can't think of you as pastor in shorts. I would probably rethink what I was doing until I can bring them along to say, listen, we're, we're just normal people serving a God that loves us and doesn't care. I'm going to adapt to those things because I want to not be a stumbling block. And that's what Paul was saying here. Don't do things that's going to cause yourself to be a stumbling block. Practically speaking, you know, if we're showing off too much of our, of our body or we're wearing overly tight clothes that catches attention. You know, this is even, we say that, but even in men's culture, you know, skinny jeans and, and different type of clothing, you know, Brett, I'm a, I'm a little bigger boy. I don't, I don't wear skinny jeans on purpose. Okay. I'm not going out and buying a pair of skinny jeans. And so if we're wearing those things, we're trying to simply wear things. So people will talk about us. Oh, you've got on those air Jordans. Oh, look at, look at the money you spent on those. And all of a sudden people are talking about our clothing and they're taking the attention away from Jesus. And that's the reason we come to church is to worship him, not to bring the people back to where we're at, but to bring the people to where Jesus is at. One scripture, as we go into this bread, I'll, I'll share because I think it's so fitting is, is James chapter two versus two through five. James says this, it's a very familiar passage of scripture. We're going to begin looking at some scripture and talking through this. The last part of the episode here says, if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothes comes into your assembly and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. And you pay attention to the one who wears fine clothes and you say here, sit in the good place. While you say to the poor man, you stand over there or you come sit at my feet. You have not made the distinction among yourselves and because I'm sorry. Have you not made the distinction among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers has not God chosen those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom, which has promised of those who love him. James was dealing with the same thing that we deal with in today's society. 2000 years later, he was saying, listen, you're giving partiality to the ones that come in and are dressed right because they look nice and you think they have something to benefit you. The church is not here to have a benefit toward one another. The church is here to glorify God, to grow together, to love Jesus supremely and to show love towards other people. And so when we begin to think through this, it's are we doing these things to let other people think better of ourselves or are we doing them because we are simply wanting to glorify God? Brett, what's your thoughts? Well, let me say one thing about your illustration where you talked about the man you wear in shorts, the man's hawk, knew about respecting you as pastor. And so you would rethink, you know, it's our liberty in Christ as long as we're not dressing immorally. It's our liberty in Christ to, you know, where, you know, what we want to, what makes us comfortable, what reflects culture. We'll get into that as we move forward. But when your liberty wounds a brother or sister, it becomes sin. And that's in Romans 14. And that goes back to that does go back to this discussion on personal convictions versus a weaker and stronger brother. But when you brought us into James chapter two, verse two through five. And, you know, we see two types of people here. We see, you know, the rich get the preferred seating. They're in the fine, nice garments. Then we have the poor. They've got the bad seating. They're in the nosebleed sections because they look poor and they don't, you know, have the fine garments. Listen, the Bible allows for people to dress down in worship. And I mean, you look in this verse and, you know, in James and you notice that they go to worship wearing shabby clothes. And that's totally fine. In fact, James says they should be accepted. They shouldn't be rejected because of what they wear. In fact, the people who are wrong in this passage, I believe, is more than just the church leadership that gave the, you know, the rich gentleman dressed in the fine clothes and the three-piece suit and the floor slime shoes gave him the preferred seat. But who's also in the wrong is the rich gentleman who allowed this to happen. You know, we should never look down on somebody who comes to church and what we don't think and what we don't think is traditional church attire. You know what, James? A stripper visiting a church is probably going to dress like a stripper. A drug dealer visiting a church is probably going to dress like a drug dealer. But those are the people you want in the church. They're not an inconvenience. They're not an eyesore. They are the mission. They are the people we want to reach. And once Jesus is in their heart, the Holy Spirit will convict them and they'll change. Their life will change from the inside out. But here's what we do. Here's the idea that we have. We have the idea that we can change people from the outside in. It's like if we force our personal convictions on other people, we force people to wear a suit and a tie to church. And that's what we used to do. You know, when somebody gets saved, you know, instead of discipling them, we used to take them to the Goodwill and buy them a shirt and tie that they can wear to church. Because we would think that is the most important thing. It's like if we force them to wear a suit and tie to church, it's going to magically change their heart. And listen, your dress code is not the Holy Spirit. Right. Your dress code is not going to change anybody. The Holy Spirit changes from the inside out. And as the inside changes and then the outside will begin to reflect that inside change. Now, another scripture that we're going to look over in the New Testament that has to do with dress is Matthew 6, 25. And it says, therefore, I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. It is not life more than food and the body more than clothing. You know, people worry too much about their clothes like it. It can become James. It can become their whole identity. You know, like I said earlier, I used to instead of focusing on what I was preaching, when I'd be preaching, I'd be focused on worried if my tie was straight or if my, you know, if my collar was flipped up and or if I was wearing the same clothes as other pastors. Was I wearing the popular shoes and all the other pastors were wearing? That was what my mindset was. We have to get out of this mentality that just because you've got a pressed, clean, white dress shirt, bless God, amen, you've got the floor shined shoes, polished to a fine gloss, that means you respect God more. Let's look at the Pharisees, okay? The Pharisees were some of the best dressed people in the first century. But guess what? They had the dirtiest hearts. Jesus said they were whited sepulchers on the outside, but on the inside they were dead men's bones. And on the other hand, you've got Jesus and his disciples over here. They're nomads who didn't have a home. They were homeless. They lived in the wilderness or on the street. They were at the mercy of other people's generosity. And probably the only regular washings they had is when they had to take a ceremonial bath in a mikvah before going up to the temple mount. But here Jesus said, don't worry about what you're going to put on. Now, the context of this verse is, you know, don't worry, I'll give you clothes to wear. But he also said, look, just don't think about it. Don't let it enter your mind. He said, your life is more than clothes. Don't make clothing your life. If when I walk into a church and the first thing I'm worried about is what is everybody else wearing or how do I look in what I'm wearing, then I've made clothing my life. And I miss the point of this verse. Yeah, absolutely. And we often can get caught up in those situations so much in our day and age, which transitions into our next passage of scripture. And I'll give some practicality to this as well. First Corinthians 11, 4 and 5. It contrasts men and women here. It says every man who prays or prophesies, basically, if you're speaking in public and you have your head covered, you dishonor your head. You're dishonoring who you are. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head. So there's this distinguishing here of, well, man, you shouldn't have your head covered. And women, when you get up, you shouldn't have your head covered. A friend of mine was telling me a story at his church where he had a group of people that came in and they were wanting to be a part of the church. And they joined and the women were very orthodox and they would have their head coverings on to the point where they were so legalistic about it. That they would not go anywhere without their head coverings on because of this verse. Now, the husbands were abusing their wives. They were being dishonored. I mean, just horrible husbands to their wives. But bless God, they're going to wear their head coverings. Because that's what they were told. That's what they were taught. And then they take this verse and they say, well, listen, she's not been dishonored because she's got her head covered. And I'm not being dishonored because my head's uncovered. And all of a sudden we begin to pick and choose. We begin to take things out of context. And this is where it begins to say, listen, you are putting so much emphasis on what's covering your head than you are what's in your heart. It doesn't matter what's over your head. It doesn't matter what you have on the outside. It matters again to your heart. And this begins to corrode away at these man-made ideologies that Scripture is talking about here. So let me say about this Scripture. So I want to say what I get from 1 Corinthians 11 is there should be a distinction amongst the genders. And I've got to be real careful about when I say this because I don't want to sound legalistic. Every culture and society has what women wear and they have what the men wear. In society, in this society, the men had head coverings in the church. It was discouraged. But the women were expected to wear the head coverings. This was a cultural thing. In our culture, James, women wear pants. Women's pants are made different than men's pants. I mean, they're cut different. Some of them, the zippers are different. There are some shirts where the buttons are on the opposite sides of the shirts. You know, so I am not here saying that women should have to wear dresses and skirts. But, you know, wear clothes that a woman should wear. Like, for instance, James, you're not going to come to church next Sunday and preach in a sundress, right? You don't think your people? Didn't plan on it, Brett. Have not planned on that one yet. Okay. But take, for instance, I say that. Look over in Scotland, okay? In their society, it's okay for men to wear kilts. Okay? So there's nothing wrong with that because that's how men dress. So the next scripture we have here is 1 Timothy 2, 9 and 10. It says, Now, I do want to take a moment here and talk about modesty. This doesn't mean that, you know, you can't wear shorts, but you can't wear shorts that are barely shorts at all. Now, I will admit that in one sense, lust is the problem of the person lusting. I am not going to blame a man's lust on a woman and say it's the woman's fault that the man is lusting. You know, we've had too much of that in the church where we make the man's sin the woman's fault. But at the same time, in another sense, if you dress immodestly and you're showing too much skin, you're taking attention off the Lord and putting it on you. You know, that's why when I get to preach, I don't wear Bermuda shorts in the pulpit. You know, I don't want women in the church lusting after my white legs, you know. That's right. That's right. Now, this verse doesn't say that you can't braid your hair or wear nice clothes. That's not the point of it. You have to read this verse in context of the first century. These Gentile women, they would spend hours and hours and hours of their day weaving their hair into these intricate patterns. Some of them would weave their hair into like the shape of a bird's nest or the shape of a vase. And they would weave gold and pearls into their hairdo. And they spent so much of their day doing this, their life actually became that. They had pride in their hair because they took so much time. They wanted people to see it. Now, you go and that's what this verse is talking about. You go look at the Proverbs 31 woman and you can see that she dressed very well. She cared about her appearance, but at the same time, her life wasn't consumed with that. And I think that's what this verse is speaking to. Yeah, absolutely. And it continues on. Peter says it like this. Do not let your adorning be external. The braiding of hair, the putting on of gold jewelry. Men wore gold jewelry in this time as well. So he's not just talking about the women here. Men had longer hair at this time. So he's talking about the same thing. Or the clothing you wear. But let your adorning be the hidden person of your heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. He begins to say, listen here. You guys, you're putting so much emphasis on what's on the outside. You don't even care about what's on the inside. God doesn't care about the outside. He cares about how your heart is. Are you being redemptive? Are you showing mercy? Are you showing love? Are you able to be corrected? Or is your spirit so evil that you're just covering it up and you're just trying to go out and you're just trying to take a card that's being beat up by the storm and you're just trying to put a fresh coat of paint on it so it looks nice? Or are you dealing with the problems of the inside? And that's where Paul is coming from here. I'm sorry, not Paul. Peter is coming from when he says, do not worry so much about the external, but worry about the internal. Brett, I never heard that preached like that. First Peter was never really used in our culture and our growing up because that goes against what they're trying to preach and teach. Exactly. We have to remember, you don't worship God with your clothes. You worship God with your heart. People take all this time and effort into dressing to a tee, yet their hearts are filthy. They're living in rebellion against God. They think that their clothing is their righteousness and they're not concerned with the heart attitude because that's what God is concerned with. The Bible over and over and over again says that the Lord sees not as man sees. Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart. Our next passage here is 1 Corinthians 9, verse 20 and 22. And it says, To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to win the Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law, though not being myself under the law, that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law, not being outside the law of God, but under the law of Christ. That I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. That is one of my favorite passages of Scripture. Absolutely. Our clothing, James, should be missional. Okay? We shouldn't try and strive to dress like church people. We should actually strive to dress like those we're trying to reach with the exception of being immodest. I mean, this means, look, if you're out in the country with a bunch of country boys who like to hunt, and you're out there with a bunch of farmers who like to farm, well, maybe that's how you should think about coming to church. I mean, the people in your area that wear boots and flannel shirts, maybe you should wear boots and flannel shirts to church. If it's jeans and a T-shirt, wear jeans and a T-shirt. Now, me personally, I don't wear ties unless it's a special occasion. I'll wear a tie on the Lord's Supper. That's about it. Most of the time I don't wear ties when I preach. I just, you know, especially, I do wear slacks. I do wear a button-up. And most Sundays I do put on a sport coat. There's one very simple reason for that. It's because I'm comfortable preaching in those clothes. I'm not comfortable wearing a tie. I'm just not going to do it. But if I wanted to show up next week on a Sunday morning to preach in jeans and a polo, I would have no issue with that. And I might do it soon just to prove a point. Now, if you have a personal conviction, you know, that you should wear, and I want to say this, you could have your own personal conviction that you honor God by wearing your best to church. And bless God, if that is your personal conviction, you do it to the glory of God. Okay? I'm not going to lord over your conscience. Don't violate your conscience because of what I'm saying on this podcast. But what I am, I'm thoroughly, personally, a proponent of come as you are. If that is your personal conviction to wear your Sunday best to church, that's fine. But don't push that off on other people. Don't lord over somebody else's conscience. Don't enforce your personal convictions on somebody else. That strays into the area of legalism. For the most part, I promote a come as you are. You know, be all things, and by all means, you may save some. Yeah. Amen. I love that. And one of the things I'll close by saying as we wrap up this episode is we're preaching through right now our core values in our church, and one of the core values that we're on is going and serving. And one of the things I said a couple of weeks ago was this. People should be able to tell that you're a Christian without you telling them. I'm going to go a step further. People should be able to know you're a Christian without you wearing a certain attire to demonstrate that you're a Christian, and I'll illustrate it by this. If being a Christian means I dress up and I wear my Sunday best, and my Sunday best for a man is a suit and tie, does that mean every lawyer is a safe, born-again believer? Does that mean every judge? Does that mean every Senate, every House of Representatives? That's their attire for their work. If that's the definition of being a Christian and being someone that's on the right track because of their dress, that means every single one of those people are born-again believers and love Jesus because that's the standard that we've set. Or is it more about our actions and about our heart than it is about our external appearance? And we've got to ask ourselves, am I doing what I'm doing because it's the right thing to do, and it's because I legitimately have a God-given conviction about this, or am I doing it because someone told me I should do it, and by doing this, I'm going to give the appearance that I'm a Christian? And that's the difference that we have to ask ourselves. Exactly. You know, separation from the world, it means separation from the sin of the world. You can't cut yourself off completely. We're called to be ambassadors in this world. And what does an ambassador do that goes to another country? They learn the customs. They learn the culture as to not offend the country that they're in, not to change who they are. They're still citizens of, say, the United States of America, but say the ambassador to China, they're going to learn the culture. They're not going to want to offend the people that they're trying to reach or the people that they're sent to. And in the same sense, we need to, you know, learn the culture of the people that we're in. You know, we want to change the culture, but at the same time, we want to be all things to them so that we can give them the gospel. This is all about, you know, spreading the gospel, being a witness for Christ. We can do that without, you know, we can do that through our attire and what we wear and not ostracize people and turn people off from that. So I agree with you. Until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. I found my new name, found that good grace, found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance, found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since, found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. 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