123. Freedom In The Church - Worship with Bob Kauflin

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Seyfried and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. It is so glad to have you this week. And we are in our In the Church series. And before we get started with that, we have been continuing to just look forward to what God has for us in the podcast. I'm thankful for the content that you guys have, the feedback that you guys have given us on our recent content. And so thankful for your listening ears. We understand that we couldn't do what we do without you listening. And so we're thankful that you are one of our faithful listeners and that you tune in every week as we release episodes. And we're just thankful to have some mics in front of us and people to listen to us. And we're mindful of your time. We've been doing some longer format podcasts lately, closer to about an hour. We feel like the content we're putting out is worthy of that. And we've done back and forth. Me and John went for a while there. We'd go less and we'd go 30 minutes or we'd do part one, part two. But we feel like right now we've got so much content. We're just going to put it out in longer form podcast and do about an hour or so. So we hope you've enjoyed that. Please give us feedback on our social medias or leave a comment or rating or review. All those things help us out and to get our podcast out. If you are one of those ones like me and like Brett have been who have struggled in legalism and struggled in these areas, share these podcasts. Share it with someone that you know so they can be encouraged. And we know that there is the mindset that we feel like we're on an island when we come out of legalism, when we come out of these areas of strongholds in our life. And so by you sharing this podcast with someone, they can be helped in ways that you would never even understand. And Brett, I don't know about you, but but when I realized there was a community of believers that were going through the same thing I was going through, it was like breath of fresh air where I could go and I could talk to someone and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. And they've had a listening ear. And so that's what we want to be. We want to be an ear. We want to be a help. And we hope we've helped in many ways, even in your life. Brett, what's your how are things going in your area, man? Man, things are going good here. I'm excited to just be in the ministry and live in life. And I want to just build upon what you said. Listen, we hear everything that you say. We want to interact with our listeners. We want you to not only like, subscribe, share our podcast on your social media, but comment. Tell us what you think. Give us feedback. We've made recent recent changes to the podcast due to feedback that we've gotten from our listeners. We've added subjects to, you know, who are, you know, episodes that we're going to do in the future because of feedback from our listeners. And listen, we listen to you. We don't ignore your comments and your thoughts, your instant messages, your Facebook posts. We want to interact with you. And so just, you know, we hear you. We're listening. We're here. And I'm excited about an interview that we've got today. Yeah. Yeah, Brett. This is going to be a fantastic interview. Before we introduce that interview and give a little bit of feedback from that, a little bit of content from that, we've got some things coming up. We're going to keep mentioning this. We've got our meetup coming up in Georgia, at Catoosa, at JC's church in November. It'll be here before you know it. We're in almost March now. We're one day away from March. And so March is right here. We're already into the third month. And we are rolling toward that. We can't wait to be there. We can't wait to meet and be around our family, be around our brothers and sisters in Christ, part of the RFP family. And so we hope you'll be there. We hope you'll make plans for that. Brett. And then Indianapolis. We've got Indianapolis coming up. We're going to the National Southern Baptist Convention. And then I'm going to I hope I hope you've got your copy of the house church manual ready. Wait, I'm going to have to. We have to we have to go pay homage. I can't remember the name of it, but there's a burrito shop up there. That's like huge burritos right in your house, Anderson, that that really have some good burritos. But, yeah, we'll take you up there and show you the holy land. I'm going to fast until now, until then, just so I can enjoy a couple of those. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Fast in the honor of Jack House. And then but we are we are seriously we are going to be in Indianapolis. We're going to do an episode from the National Convention of Southern Baptist. And that's going to be an excellent episode. And there's a chance we might hear from the wives. Yes, I was about to mention that, too. Yeah, I didn't know if we talked about it. I know your wife had mentioned it. My wife's real nervous. She said she didn't think she did well at all the last time we did a wives episode. But I'm like, dude, we're going to be together. We're going to be in the same house. We got it. We got to do something. So got to look forward to that. I can't wait. To get together with Emily again and Brett and be able to share that week together. And then in one year from from just two weeks from when we released this one year away, we're going to be back in Israel. Just had my Israel interest meeting in our church and excited about those who signed up and are looking forward to go with us. We want you to go after this episode drops. We'll be having our our link go live on our website for freedom podcast dot com. I want you to go there and check out the information. Check out what we've got going on. And we'd love for you to link up with us and go to Israel with for freedom and experience the Holy Land with us. A trip that will change your life and a trip that will change the way you read the Bible. Amen. Brett, anything else? I think that's I think we've covered all our bases. All right. So we're coming up on an interview here with a guy named Bob Coughlin. He wrote a book called Worship Matters. And we're going to link that in our show notes. But this was one of those interviews I was talking with John and talking with Brett and talking to a couple of friends of mine. And I said, you know, I'm going to do something that I haven't I've never done. I'm just going to send an email. I couldn't find his email. So I said I direct message him on Facebook. We weren't friends. And I sent Bob an email or an instant message, a DM. And I said, hey, Bob, you don't know me. I'm from a fundamentals background. Love to do an interview with you on worship and what worship means. And worship, he wrote a book called Worship Matters. Why does worship matter? And I told Brett, I said, I don't think we're going to get an email back. He's a pretty big pastor, big in the in music. He writes music. He sings music. I said, we're probably not going to get an interview back. So be having a couple of guys on your back burner for we can do interview. And would you know it? Like the next day he messaged me back. We got emails. I started emailing the secretary. We lined him up for an interview. And so if you're familiar with Sovereign Grace Music, Bob Coughlin, this is the interview that we have lined up. And I'm so excited for you to hear it today. Welcome to the show today. We are so excited to have an interview today with Mr. Bob Coughlin. Some of you may or may not be familiar with Mr. Bob, but he is the president of Sovereign Grace Music. Director. Director. I don't go by the name president. Ah, come on. Director. All right. Director. He's written hundreds and hundreds of songs. And it's just a bad and unknown. And he has been all over just the music world for many years. He wrote a book called Worship Matters. And worship does matter in our life. And so, Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming. And just sort of give us an interview tomorrow and give us just sort of a talk about that. Well, tell me specifically what you want me to focus on. Yeah. So what's your life in ministry and your desire for music? So how did your life begin in ministry? And then what is your ultimate desire for ministry? Well, it is. Okay. How did it begin? Yeah, I was in a Christian band years ago. I became a Christian in 1972 through a guy in college. He shared the gospel with me from Crew, Campus Crusade, as a freshman in college. And then when I graduated from college as part of a Christian band called GLAD, we toured the country for eight years. And I've always been involved in music in some way, majored in piano. And then I developed a real passion for the local church through teaching I was receiving and just through reading my Bible. So I wanted to give myself to seeing people evangelized, saved, discipled, and deployed in the ministry of the gospel, fulfilling the purpose God had created them for. So I left the band and became a part of church, which is a family of churches. The denomination is now called Sovereign Grace Churches. That was in 1984, and I became a pastor in 1985. And I've been doing music in the church since the mid-70s, I guess, full-time since 85. And in 97, I took on this current role as director of Sovereign Grace Music, somewhat. I mean, it was kind of an evolutionary process. But I definitely oversee it now. I'm sure of that. And so for the last 27 years, about, I've been working at – well, our mission statement is to produce Christ-exalting songs and training for the church from our local churches. So that involves producing albums, training songwriters, training leaders, training pastors, putting on conferences, do a Worship Matters intensive. I sometimes write a blog. I have a podcast. So the – why do I do all this? I think it's what Paul said in Philippians 1, is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed that now with full courage Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. That's why I do it. You know, I'm a pastor. I don't do music. I love music. But I was just having a conversation with a college intern last night. I have a group of interns over on Thursday night. And they said, you know, what music do you listen to? I said, well, I don't listen to much music. I mean, I love music, but I love Jesus more. Music is great. Jesus is greater. And I see music as a wonderful gift, wonderful tool to help people understand God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ. So that involves a lot of things, which we'll probably get into. But I enjoy using music to that end. But I really care that people come to see how glorious Jesus is and how great the gospel is. I love it. And I was first introduced to you, Bob, eight years ago at Together for the Gospel. Oh, wow. My pastor took me there. I was just fresh into that ministry. And we went six years ago. I'm sorry, six years ago. And we went and you're playing the piano and you're singing and worshiping. I still listen to that album a lot because it's just been so much to me. But just your energy of singing and your energy of leading. For me, again, I was leaving the fundamentalist world at this moment. And so I had only known worship one way. And so I was a little taken back at first. But then it was like, wow, this is great. And to top it all off, I go home and I start researching a little bit. And I find the Sovereign Grace music website, of course. And I mean, most, if not all of the music on there is free. Like, you can get sheet music. Actually, sheet music is free. It's all free. Yeah. You can get sheet music. And I'm just like, dude, this is like a gold mine for me. I can get free music from this place. Like, of course, it's my new favorite place to go find music. And so it's a blessing. It's been a blessing for me. That is great. Yeah. It's funny how the Lord has used this together for the gospel conferences and those albums. We did four. And then Matt Merker came in for the last one and did a fifth. But I never dreamed that that would be a part of Sovereign Grace music. But it does kind of boil things down to the essentials, doesn't it? It does. You don't have a big band. You just have voices and a piano. But what you mentioned, the passion, I think that is the natural effect of knowing, understanding who God is and what he's done for us in Jesus. It's just a natural response. It's funny. Those who are most informed about scripture should be the most passionate. Amen. You know, I just recently started reading your book, Worship Matters. And great book. What took you so long, Brett? Goodness gracious. Been out for 16 years. Yeah, I know. I'm behind the times. I'm just kidding you. Thanks for reading. But it's a great book. Great book. And, you know, for the first decade and a half of my ministry, I was a worship leader. And I'll tell you right now, I'd rather get up and preach in front of a thousand people than get up and lead singing in front of a hundred. Because it's just so nerve-wracking for me. But the advice you give is so practical. It's relatable. And, you know, I have felt that sometimes leading worship, I've got up there before, and I felt that the worship was dry and that it was empty and that it was pointless. And so one of the questions that we want to ask you is, it's just this simple question. Why does worship matter? Wow. Well, God existed as Father, Son, and Spirit before anything existed. And you could describe the relationships between the Father, Son, and Spirit as one of worship, meaning mutual enjoyment, mutual pleasure, mutual satisfaction, mutual adoration, affection. You know, the Father, Son, and Spirit esteem one another as the one God. And when God created a people that he was going to redeem for himself, worship is really inviting us into that. So it's inviting us into the ultimate reality. And the truth is, Brett, everybody worships. And in the garden, Adam and Eve worshiped the true God until they decided, they listened to the serpent, and they decided that they could do this on their own. They had a better idea than God. They weren't going to be submitted to his authority. And so at that point, you know, they were cast out of his presence, and they rejected his rule. And so God himself redeemed us for the purpose of coming back into his presence, being in his presence, and being under his rule. And when we fell, we didn't stop worshiping. As Harold Best says, our worship was just redirected. I think Matt Pompas says this as well. It didn't end. Worship didn't end. It just redirected. So worship is a life and death category. You know, at the end of the Bible, Revelation 21, I think, 22, it says his servants shall worship him. And that's the destiny of all that God has redeemed through Christ. All those God has redeemed through Christ, that we will worship him. If we don't worship him, we're taking damnation. We are rejecting the way the universe works, which is God at the top. God the supreme. God the sovereign. God the reason for everything. And so worship matters. And, you know, I used that title for my book. I'm pretty sure I got it from a book years ago written called Money Matters. And I thought, that's a great title. And, you know, it's a double meaning. You know, worship matters. Things about worship. But then worship matters because it's not only what we do when we sing. It's the way we live our lives. Which I drew out more in my other book, True Worshippers. But I make reference to that in Worship Matters as well. That worship, unfortunately, has become this catch-all phrase that mostly means singing. And it's biblically, it's a much broader meaning. Much more full meaning that covers what we do, what we say, what we think. Our motives. Everything about our lives is an act of worship towards something. So it really matters. That's great. And right now we're actually doing a series called In the Church. And we're addressing issues that have been dealt with in the church. Abuse, worship, services, structure, things like that. And so this one's falling into the worship side or, you know, singing in church and what that looks like, what that encompasses. And you sort of alluded to it there for a minute. But oftentimes we were raised in our background, me and Brett's background, that worship was only done a certain way. Worship was only to be done with hymns and hymns only, a specific group of instruments. And if you added any other instruments or you did anything other than hymns, then you were just liberal. You were left. There's no way it can honor God. You're an abomination. You're basically just one-lipping Satan. Like, if you add the drums or you add an electric guitar, you've welcomed in demons into your church. Demon. And you have basically just fallen by the wayside. So, Azel, when we think of worship and we think of styles and stylistic ways of worship, what is the proper way of that? What's the proper way of worship? What's the proper way, again, not just singing, but a whole lifestyle of it? Yeah. What's the connection? Well, there is a real connection between the song, that should be, between the songs we sing and the way we live our lives. I mean, certainly in the Old Testament, anytime there was a revival of corporate worship, you know, the law was discovered and people gathered and the law was read. And it affected the life of the people. So, there's supposed to be a correspondence. If you have good, solid, you know, gatherings based on God's word, what God has revealed to us, then that most likely means that you're going to seek to live lives that way. Seek to live your life that way. However, God has left us a lot of freedom. He's given us specific things that are priority. Things like, you know, our meetings are to exalt him. The gathering is to exalt him, not us. That they're to be governed by the word of God and fueled by the word of God. So, you know, they should be governed by the word of God. That's, we wouldn't have any, we wouldn't know what to do if God's word didn't tell us. And then they're meant to be fueled by the word of God. The gospel is meant to be central, God's supreme act of deliverance. You know, in the Old Testament, it was the deliverance from Egypt through the Red Sea and then the Babylonia exile. And now it's deliverance from sin and death and hell and the grave through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. And that's what we celebrate when we gather together. So things like that are central and meant to be priority. But when you asked that question, I thought of Jesus' words in Matthew 15, where he says in verse 7, You hypocrites, well, did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. So that's a, you know, that's one sign that it's not just about the externals. You can do the right things. And Israel did this. They offered sacrifices that God didn't accept because both their hearts and their lives weren't submitted to God. But then he goes on to say this, verse 9, In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. And it's a tendency, I think, for all of us to assign scriptural weight to things that are more preferential or inferred, perhaps. To assign biblical authority to our traditions. And that's a dangerous thing to do. It doesn't mean that there aren't ways of doing things that are better than others. So, you know, I think having a, you know, screaming guitars, electric guitars at the front of your gathering is not a good and helpful way to get your congregation to sing. However, does that mean you can't use an electric guitar in a responsible, Christ-exalting, congregationally serving way? Well, no, that doesn't mean that. And so what we tend to do is create categories, create rules that help us simplify our relationship with God. And God has given us those rules in his word. And when we start to add to them, we create all kinds of problems. So, you know, we hear about the worship wars, which, you know, it's really a misnomer. You're not, we're not arguing about who to worship. We're arguing about how to sing. We're arguing about how to make music. And that in itself shows that we don't understand the gift that worship and song is. That we don't come with anything to offer. We come as needy, you know, sinners saved by grace to receive all that God has given us. And in that moment when we're singing, you know, the main point is to get people singing from their hearts with, you know, reflecting the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. And so there are just a number of ways to do that. And to insist that it has to be, you know, the way we've always done it. Or, you know, to pull something from scripture that's really not there is to teach as doctrines the commandments of men. And Jesus, God's against that. He's going to make it feel odd in people's hearts. And they'll just, they'll either be people who are very discouraged or very proud. You know, because we've got it right. We've got it right. You know, the only way we've gotten our worship right is to know that it's given through Jesus. That's when it's right. You know, he's the one who perfects all our offerings. He's the one who makes our sacrifices of worship acceptable. Peter says, 1 Peter 2.5. So to reduce it to, you know, you've got to do a certain number of hymns, certain instrumentation. There are all kinds of examples in scripture of ways that we can sing to God. Amen. When you look at the Psalms, you've got Psalm 117, two verses. And then you've got Psalm 119, 176 verses. And you just think, okay, that's a lot of difference. And everything in between. And then different kinds of instrumentation. And so there's complex. There's simple songs. There's planned songs, spontaneous songs. There's individual songs, group songs. I mean, it's just all kinds of songs. And so there is no one style, instrumentation, genre that will fully or adequately capture two things. One, all the things that God is. And two, all the appropriate ways that we should respond to him. So I found it helpful, as I've gotten older, to really focus just on the sound of the congregation and what we can do to serve that. Amen. Amen. Yeah, we definitely were raised with that preference-driven theology, preference-driven music. My pastor, you know, singing hymns that had to be 150, 200 years old, or we couldn't see them sing them, only use the piano. My pastor used to say, you can't, you know, anything that was contemporary was Christian rock. And my pastor used to say, you know, you can't have Christian rock anymore than you have Christian fornication. And just that kind of stuff, just pushing preferences. And for me today, right now, it's about the words. It's about the message. What does it say about God? How does it help our relationship with God? And so this next subject that I want to go into... Can I comment on that before you move ahead, Fred? Please do. Yeah, I think we want to avoid going too far in our response to that. I think music does matter. We're affectional creatures. We are moved by music. Music in every culture moves us. There are cultural associations that we can make with music. There are historical associations we can make with music. There are musical principles that, you know, in each culture that can affect people. So I think we need to have wisdom in the musical choices we make. So it's to guard against the people who says, yeah, you can use any kind of music in the church. Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, unless you, like Paul said, yeah, anything's potential, but not all things are helpful. And I think that's a better way to approach it. Just so I wouldn't want a listener to misunderstand that, okay, yeah, just the words matter. You can use whatever music you want. No, I think there are some kinds of music, some instrumentations of music, some arrangements of music that really do support congregational singing. And then there are other kinds that fight against it. And that's a wisdom issue. I was going to say in Colossians 3.16, where it says, you'll let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. I just think it's interesting that we're teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom. It takes wisdom to discern, okay, what kind of music is really going to support the singing of this congregation? And that's a local church issue. You know, if you're coming out of a fundamentalist background, just don't bring a drum kit and electric guitar like one Sunday and go, okay, here we are. You know, there's something very beautiful about a church singing hymns, but you're cutting yourself off. Sorry? I said absolutely. I agree with you. Yeah. I love hymns. You're cutting yourself off from spirit-inspired songs that have come to us in the last 10, 20, 30 years that are really means of grace intended to build up and strengthen the church. So it's just a matter of – and I think it's interesting. If you go back to like the 1600s, 1700s, much of the church only sang the Psalter. It was guys like Isaac Watts, particularly, who introduced to the church the singing of hymns, hymns of human composure. That was radical in their day. But if he had not been radical, we wouldn't be singing hymns today. So we have to put things in historical perspective and realize that some of the changes in the music of the church are really helping the church grow and helping people know Christ better and know the word better. And if we insist, no, it has to be the way it was 200 years ago. Well, then we're ignoring how we even got those hymns 200 years ago. Absolutely. Yeah, and I want to add one more thing to that because I think you pulled out a great point. About 10 years ago, I was an associate pastor in Idaho, and there was a larger church there and some other churches on Easter Sunday that were using not even Christian songs, but worldly highway to hell as opening up for Easter service. And I'm thinking, you know, even then, it's just 10 years ago, I'm thinking, okay, that doesn't have any place in church. Like, it doesn't talk about Jesus. It's not talking about glorifying God in any way, shape, or form. Yeah, it talks about hell, but like, this is not right. I think that's the pen. We had Jim Neuheiser on a couple weeks ago, and we talked about the pendulum swing of abuse. And oftentimes, that's the pendulum swing in worship as well is, well, I was told to do this, and so I'm against that, so let's go all the way to the other side, and let's pull in worldly stuff that has nothing to do with Jesus. And so it's trying to find that balance in between there and everything we do. Yeah, and I'd say that balance is found by aiming to please the Lord, biblically speaking. Freedom is not doing whatever we want to do. Freedom is being able to serve the Lord, to please the Lord in a way that builds up his body, builds up his church, and serves as a light for those who don't know the Lord. But that's very different from pursuing that as the main goal. You know, you do Highway to Hell as your opening number for a service. You know, you're saying, we want to connect with the unbelievers. Well, that's not why the church gathers. The church gathers to bear witness to what God has done for us in Christ and to receive all that he's given us. And that's just a very different aim. I tell you, I have been into, in some church worship services in many churches, even some worship services in churches that I've pastored where, you know, it's just so dry. It's just like, there's nothing there. It feels like people feel like the Baptist police are in the back of the church, and they're going to come arrest them if they raise their hand. And one of my pet peeves leading singing was people not singing. You know, why would you come to church and not sing? You know, you're there, you know, as a priest, and one of your jobs is the sacrifice of praise. You know, that's what, so, you know, there's church services, worship services that are dry sometimes in our churches today. How can we avoid the dryness of worship? Well, there's a lot of reasons that, you know, a service might be dry. So I'm going to try and address them, you know, different ones. It might be that, okay, let's assume that the songs are great, and, yeah, the songs are great, and maybe the scriptures being read are great. It could be just the example of the person who's leading them. There is good leadership, and there's bad leadership. Part of good leadership is being affected yourself by what you're singing, by what you're asking people to sing. I see that in a lot of churches. There's no particular church that has a corner on the market for this. We just go through the motions. So when you have someone up front going through the motions of what you're doing, that's going to have an effect. Now, to counteract that, talk about the pendulum swing. You know, some people try to be the cheerleader. They get up to the front, and, you know, let's do this, and they're not seeking to motivate with truth so much as their excitement and their passion. And that's not going to work because you're not feeding people. You're jumping ahead of them, and you're saying, be as excited as I am. And that's not what we're meant to motivate people with. We are meant to motivate people with the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. I love 2 Corinthians 3.18, which is not about a meeting per se, but it does have relevance to that. It says, you know, we all with unveiled face beholding the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. This comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. We are trying to help people see the glory of the Lord. So that could be another reason that it's dry. You're not giving people the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as God's shown it to us in his word. Maybe you're using good songs, good scriptures, but you're not helping people understand them. So a lot of churches, they'll have a song, then a prayer, and a scripture, and no one's telling people why you're doing things a certain way. So people just, you know, kind of, eh, I'm not really into it. So you're not making theological connections for people. That's another reason why things could seem dry. Another reason might be that people are unconverted. You know, people in our churches, they come, their eyes have been opened to their sin and the provision that God's made for us in the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus and the fact that he's risen from the dead. So nothing affects them. Yeah, so those are some of the reasons. It's hard to imagine. You know, Peter says that we are, though we don't see Jesus, we love him and rejoice with a joy that is inexpressible and full of glory. And our churches should resemble that. They should reflect that. You have the psalmist in Psalm 108 saying, So there's a reason he's so excited. He's going to wake the musicians. He's going to wake, cause the sun to rise up. He's going to tell everybody about this. Why? Because your steadfast love is great above the heavens. And your faithfulness reaches to the clouds. You know, living on this side of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, we really know what that means. His steadfast love. Oh, I was a sinner going to hell. I was condemned. I was blind. I was clueless. I was a rebel. I was a rebel. I was under God's wrath. Now I'm forgiven. I'm justified. I'm declared righteous in God's eyes. I'm adopted in Christ. I have the hope of eternal joy at God's right hand. And as I'm thinking on those thoughts, how can I not be affected by those? Yeah. So as a leader, I want to point people to those things that are meant to stir us to that joy that is inexpressible and full of glory. Amen. Man, that's so powerful. One of the things you said, I have recently, five, six months ago, took the lead pastor of a church about 20 minutes from the house. And so it's been an exciting journey. We've been learning together. And it's my first time being a lead pastor. And so it's been great. But I was listening to a message just this past week that one of our church members sent me. And he made this statement. And he said, I want to always remind our people why we do what we do. Yes. Behind why we're doing it. We're not just baptizing because we baptize. No, this is a symbol of regeneration. We don't just take communion because we take communion. We take communion because it's a symbol of the death, burial, resurrection, the body of Christ being broken for our sins. You know, it's constantly reminding ourselves and our people what is the reason of what we're doing. And when I heard that, and you said it as well there too, it just reminded me, I do it subconsciously. And oftentimes we don't do it or people have it done in church. And so they just come and they go through the routine because, well, grandma said we've got to go to church. And we go to church and we sing a song. We stand up. We sit down. We read a verse. We stand up. We sit down. The pastor. But we don't understand the purpose behind it. And so therefore we fall into the ritualistic acts of just going to church because it's what we're supposed to do. Yeah. So going through actions without hard engagement is abhorrent to God. Yeah. It's not just a myth. It's God doesn't accept that. And we think we can get away with it. And there is a place, I should say, there is a place for doing things externally in order to stir our affections. So, you know, sometimes I might lift my hands to remind myself that I'm dependent on the Lord. It doesn't have to be just a crazy charismatic thing. It's just that's what people do. That's what a two-year-old does when they want to be held. They hold up their hands. So, John Calvin, of all people, remarked on that, how physical actions can both express what's inside us and affect what's inside us. So there's a place for seeking to stir your heart up, you know, through going to a Sunday meeting. I need to be there. But you're doing it in faith, not out of rote and not because you just feel like you're putting in your time. Yeah. Last thing we'll look at, and if we're a second time, we'll do this. You mentioned near the very beginning of the interview that even in the Children of Israel, there was a personal worship and a corporate worship that brought revival and revitalization to the church. What's the challenge that you see so often in the personal worship that we have and also the corporate worship that we have? And how is this a challenge often that brings in our life where we don't have that revival that we need in our life personally and then it doesn't flow over into corporately as well? So what are some challenges to that that you would see? You know, that's a great question. The challenges aren't they have many manifestations, but the roots always the same. You know, nothing's changed much since Adam and Eve thought that they didn't need God to live their lives. And so we we follow in that path. We follow down that track, even as Christians. And for us, it's we don't we don't recognize, you know, that as Christians, we have been brought into Christ. I've been reading a lot about a union with Christ. We have a conference coming up. Worship God, one with Christ. How our union with Christ affects everything. So, yeah, if you can come, it'd be great. It's in Louisville, July 24th to 27th. But so I've been reading up on our union with Christ and been very affected by it, that we tend to separate the benefits of Christ apart from him. You know, we're from him. You know, so we're justified. But, you know, you're justified because you are in Christ. We're sanctified or we're going to be saying, you know, you're sanctified because you're in Christ. That's what Paul says at the end of First Corinthians. He became for us wisdom from God. That is our righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Jesus is all those things. So what happens? The struggle is I keep pushing Jesus to the periphery. I keep pushing him to the side. I think it's about me. I think it's about my efforts. I think it's about my failures, my successes, my motives, my achievements, my accomplishments, my perspectives. And rather than spending our days, spending our devotions, spending our time thinking, how can I know Christ better? And that's where the means come in. You know, we read his word. We pray. We talk about the things of the Lord. We read Christian books. We stir our souls rather than spending the majority of our time scrolling through Facebook, Instagram, watching videos, games, video, you know, Netflix and whatever. Just hanging out, watching sports, whatever. You know, none of those are bad by themselves. But where do we where do we go for our meaning in life? Where do we go for our joy in life? Where do we go for our satisfaction? And when we don't go to the Lord for those things, well, you show up at a Sunday meeting and it's not going to be that interesting. You know, it's like this isn't giving me what I want. You don't have the latest show that I've been watching. You know, that's much more interesting than what's going on here. So I think we underestimate who God is, what he's done to save us, the fact that we are in Christ, that his spirit dwells within us, that we have a life where God is promised. You know, one of my favorite verses, Psalm 40, verse 5, you have multiplied, O Lord, my God, your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us. None can compare with you. I will proclaim and tell of them, yet they are more than can be told. You know, God is preparing wondrous deeds and thoughts for us. He's always thinking about how can I make him or her more like my son? How can I bless them? How can I show them my care for them? How can I lead them in the ways I want them to go? God's always doing this. And we think it's all up to us. We think, you know, we only come to God when we're in trouble or when we want to feel spiritual, want to impress God. And it's a life. It's a life for me to live as Christ and to die as game. And what Paul's saying there is, while I'm alive, I want to live in Christ. I want to think about him, follow him, cherish him, treasure him. And when I die, it's going to be even better because I'm going to be with him. So because we don't cultivate those affections, you know, we come to our gatherings not expecting to be moved, not expecting to be awed, amazed, you know, in wonder. And it is a truly wondrous thing that we can know the God who created and sustains the universe, that we can know the son of God who lived on this earth a perfect life, died in our place to receive the wrath of God, rose from the dead, sent into his father's right hand, is reigning and interceding for us right now. That we have his spirit living within us, the spirit of the living God lives within us to lead us, to guide us, to illumine us, to strengthen us, sustain us, to enable us to know the love of God in our hearts, to put gifts in us that can be used in various ways to strengthen the body of Christ, to bring glory to God. And it's just like, so what? What is most satisfying? And giving ourselves to those things in the ways that God has enabled us to give ourselves to them. Man, that's fantastic. I have so enjoyed this today. This has been so much. Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me. It's been great for me. I know Brett has enjoyed it. We may have not said a lot because I'm just sort of taking it all in because it's been so great. For me, I mean, this is, you know, I've read your stuff. I've listened to you. I've seen you on the stage. For me, it's just, it's great. But again, getting us back into focus with, you know, when we understand the vastness of who God is and that he wants a relationship with us. Yes. Yeah. It changes the way we worship. It changes what we do. Yeah. Yeah. And I would encourage those who are listening to not expect a song to do what Jesus is meant to do. We have great songs, but Jesus is greater. That's right. You get to know him and appreciate his love and his greatness and his beauty, his majesty. Then the songs begin to make sense and you'll sing them with more enthusiasm and more heart and more enjoyment and because your focus will be in the right place. Yeah. Amen. Brett, any final thoughts or questions for Bob this morning, this evening? I just want to echo what James said. I've thoroughly enjoyed today. I've learned so much from you, even just listening to you speak on this subject of worship. I can't wait for our listeners to hear you. And I just want to heartfelt thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Absolutely. Thank you guys for what you're doing. I appreciate, you know, anyone who seeks to bring people out of the bondage of religion into the freedom we have in Christ. Amen. Because it is glorious. It's glorious. That's good. Well, it's fitting today to sign off this way and we'll continue doing it. But until next time, to God. Not the pastor. Be the glory. Amen. Amen. I found my new name. I found that good grace. I found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning. Has no ending. I found that second chance. I found my best friend. I found my forgiveness. I found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our podcast on whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time for the For Freedom Podcast. Thank you. 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