88. Freedom In Parenting Part 3 w/ Sean Perron - How to Help Hurting Children

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Safer. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. We are back with us this month discussing parenting and how we can be good parents, how we can be biblical parents, and how we can parent in the right, correct way. And so, John, we have enjoyed the last couple of weeks talking together, and I hope you've been doing well. And we are very excited and privileged to have Sean Perron with us again. He was a former guest where we talked about dating, and we went through a couple of his books. And today we're going to have him on discussing what it is the best course of action when we come in contact with a hurting child or a child that's been broken or brokenhearted or even just have a tragedy in their life and how we can best help them. And so, Sean's going to come on. He's got several stories and some case studies that he's went through, some different situations where he's going to give us some insight on some practical areas where he's been able to use some practical biblical sources and some scripture to be able to help out in that area. So, Sean, welcome to the show. Welcome to us today. So glad to have you on today. Oh, yeah. I'm very glad to be here. This topic is incredibly important. And it's incredibly important because Jesus thinks it's important. So Jesus says, let the little children come to him. And children are human beings made in God's image who are unfortunately born sinful. And born not only sinful, but born into a world that is full of suffering. And a lot of people can be scared, even nervous to talk to kids about their problems. But Jesus doesn't think we should be. And the problems that kids face are actually fundamentally the same problems that adults face. They face sadness. They face anger. They face anxiety. They just face it according to their age and their perception. And the good news is the Bible has answers for all of those things. So I think the topic is incredibly important. I'm glad we're discussing it. Yeah. And, you know, talk about the subject of parenting. A lot of times what people think of a lot of the hurt that kids go through comes from the parents. You know, I think of even your shepherd there, your pastor there. I mean, his testimony of abuse came at the hands of his parents. But, you know, sometimes parents can struggle because sometimes that hurt, even in the teenage years, can come outside of your control or your ability to protect your children. And, you know, I think a lot of parents can desire to have, you know, what to do in this type of situation or feel at a loss. Or, you know, this may be a good topic for parents to hear of, you know, just being on guard, checking yourself, making sure that you're, you know, being aware of your child and not, you know, leaning towards maybe sinful behaviors with your kids. But we are grateful that Sean's going to talk about this. He had a case that caused him to dig deep into this subject and what the Scriptures teach. So, Sean, why don't you just sort of open up, tell us a little bit about sort of where you came face to face with some of this. Yeah, so this is many years back. I was actually not on staff at First Baptist Jacksonville. That's where I'm currently on staff. And I was volunteering to serve in our counseling ministry here. I was certified by ACBC and love counseling. And this wonderful family in our church came and they asked for some help. And I'll share some details that you won't be able to identify who this family is. But it was a little boy. The boy was about eight years old. And he was having night terrors, panic attacks, very overwhelmed. Overwhelmed, lots of questions. And those all stemmed from when the previous year he was in a car wreck. He was in a car wreck. And his older sister died. And the car wreck wasn't just any car wreck. The car wreck took place because he was actually being kidnapped. He was being kidnapped by another member of the family. And the family member was fleeing from the police, actually. And wrecked into a telephone pole, rolled the vehicle several times. And the boy survived. But his sister did not. And he was angry at his parents. Parents are now no longer living together. Angry at this family member who was trying to take him away. Angry that his sister died. And they wanted help and wanted to know what to do. And that immediately thrust me into a situation where I'm like, okay, this is very intense. And we started out talking about a lot of things. And one of the most important things you can do when you're initially having these conversations, whether you're a parent or whether you're a counselor, is you've got to ask a lot of questions. You have to be slow to speak, quick to hear. The person who states their case first seems right until another one comes along and examines it. In biblical counseling, we call this gathering data, which is just kind of a formal way of saying you need to ask every question you can think from every angle so that you're rightly understanding the situation. So this, you know, you can say, okay, when did the panic attacks start? Why do you think you're having them? What do you think about God? What do you think about the Bible? Who are you most angry at? What do you enjoy doing in life? What gives you hope? So you can ask a variety of questions, and they should be. You can ask fun questions with kids, you know, like, what's your favorite color? What's your favorite food? I mean, you're talking to a kid, right? So they have those things. They love certain things. They don't like certain things. Do they like to read? Do they like to draw? Do they like to sing? What's a normal day look like? When are they the saddest? What are their thoughts leading up to the sadness? One question that I asked that was really important is, hey, you're coming to talk to me. I'm a church member at the time. I wasn't even, they didn't know me formerly. And so why do you think you're here? Do you want to talk to me? Do you, what do you fear the most? What do you, what are you upset about the most? So all of those conversations, there's so many more, there's different ways to ask those questions. You can say, you can like leave a blank and you can say, I'm, I'm going to say this phrase and you fill in the blank or you write on the board. God is to me blank. My mom wants me to be blank. My dad wants me to be blank. I would be happy if blank. And then once they tell you that, then that gives you a stepping stone to work to be able to bring the scriptures to bear on their life in a profound way. So that's how I would start the case. And, and, and you have to start with gathering the data lest you speak where you don't know, don't know how to care for them well. That's great. And so in this situation, when you began talking through what, what, what scripture did you immediately come to mind or where that may have been just the first meeting, the second, third meeting you began discussing through what, what was some helps that you began to share with this child? As they began to come to ask questions and work through this situation here. Yeah. So one of the first things we did was we looked at Psalm 121 and Psalm 121 talks about how when, when we're in trouble, we lift our eyes to the hills and our help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth. And so what I did was, uh, I have this, uh, I do this with all my kid counseling cases is I call it the heart man, uh, or the heart girl, depending on the gender of the child I'm talking to. And I draw a stick figure with a giant heart. I mean, a massive oversized heart on it. And, uh, I talk about how in, in Mark seven, Jesus says out of the abundance of our heart, the mouth speaks. And so I draw a little, uh, arrow coming out of the mouth and it comes from the heart actually. And then I draw an arrow coming from the hand and that comes from the heart. And we talk about what, whatever's going on in our heart is going to come out of our mouth. It's going to come out in our actions. It's going to come out in our mind. It's going to come out in our feet. And, um, when our hearts are filled, um, with love, we will demonstrate love. And when our hearts are filled with anger, we will demonstrate anger. And when our hearts are filled with peace, we will demonstrate peace. And we talked about that heart. And I said, okay, so what your heart, what's going on in your heart right now? Like what's taking place inside? Like, what do you feel? Like, what are you thinking? And that included anxiety and brokenness, sadness, which you would expect, obviously. Okay. So when you're sad, where are your eyes going? Where are you looking? And so I draw the eyes. And this child, this little guy, he loved to draw. So this was very exciting for him. He was definitely into it. Other kids who don't like drawing, they might not be interested in drawing this out. But when you're saddest, it's when your eyes, and I draw the little eyeballs, your eyes are focused on you. They're focused on what's happening inside. And you cry more. You get sad more. You feel all of this loss. But when your eyes are lifted up to the hills, and then above him, I drew these little mountains. So Psalm 121, I drew these hills. And so when you look up, then you still feel sad, but you have hope. You know that something is going to come over those hills. It's going to bring you peace. And the person that is coming over those hills is Jesus. And Psalm 121 in particular is helpful because it talks about how the Lord will not let your foot slip. He who slumbers. God doesn't sleep. You slumber, but God doesn't. And he keeps you in peace. And that was incredibly helpful for this child because he's struggling with sleeping. He's struggling with panic. And so at night, he's able to go lay down in bed. And instead of having all his thoughts turn inward and all his thoughts turn on himself and think, oh, my goodness, what's going to happen to me? And tomorrow when I wake up, am I going to get in a car? And am I going to die again? Is someone going to kidnap me tomorrow night? Is someone going to kidnap me tonight? And the obvious answer is no, because there was safety that we always counseled safety. And those precautions were all put in place. But he's able to sit there in his bed and think, I'm going to go to sleep, but God never goes to sleep. I'm going to fall asleep, but God's watching me. And God has put people in my life that care for me. And another psalm that's helpful is Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd. And that's a memorable psalm that everyone will eventually memorize, probably if they're a Christian. But bringing that to bear of while you're asleep, there's a shepherd who's looking out for you. And he'll make you lie down in green pastures. He'll lead you beside still waters. And he's prepared a table before you in the presence of your enemies. And your cup runs over. And surely goodness and mercy will follow you all the days of your life. And you'll dwell in the house of the Lord forever. So Psalm 121 was very important. Psalm 23 is another place you can go. Another psalm that we discussed was Psalm 46. We talked about how even though the earth gives way and the mountains move into the heart of the sea and as waters roar and foam, that's a sudden, tragic, horrible situation. It's apocalyptic even. But you can communicate that to a child and say, even when that happens, there's a sure rock that you can stand on. And that rock is Jesus. And so eventually, after moving through those psalms, I shared the gospel with this little guy. There's a few different ways I can share the gospel with kids that I enjoy doing. And they wound up trusting in Jesus. Their panic attacks wound up subsiding and eventually going away. And their fears were to be able to turn to the Lord instead of away from the Lord. And it wound up being a wonderful, wonderful story. But it's slow work. But it's possible and really wonderful how God's Word's a lamp unto our feet, even in the midst of the darkest nights. Yeah. No, I'm glad you said that at the end. It is slow work. Working with – and I think that some would – a word that some could use to categorize as the kid, the little boys went through trauma. And any time you're working with somebody with trauma, it is slow work. Yeah. And I thought – I just – our Tuesday night, we do a kid's church on Tuesday nights, and we just – we're going through this psalm by City of Light. Yeah, not I, but Christ through me. Love that. Yeah. And we were teaching them the second verse, and we used Psalm 23 and talked about, like, all right, whenever you're scared, what is a truth that you can go to that's comforting? And talked about Jesus being the shepherd, as it says in the second verse of that psalm. But yeah, I thought that was great, and that is – it's not just a good truth for kids. It's a good truth for all of us. Amen. But, you know, Sean, whenever you're talking to – I found this in ministry with parents, too, and with just a lot of people. They may be good listeners when they have somebody or maybe a family member, or let's just say like a child that is going through something. They come to you, and they're listening. They're hearing it, but it's so overwhelming to them because they don't know where to sort of take all of this information. They may have listened to it, but it's like – and I've even seen this even with some counselors, even myself when starting off. It's like you hear heavy stuff, and it's like how do you sort through all of that to really then go to a Psalm 121 or a Psalm 23 or Psalm 46? It's like how do you get from dealing with all this stuff? It just seems like it's so overwhelming. And I think that like your understanding of what you taught here was like breaking it into categories, being able to sort of sift through that is helpful. So what would be some help for somebody that's on the listening side? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So great question. You're not the first person to ask the question, and there's a reason for that because it's a good question. So Jesus is talking to his disciples before his death, and I believe this is John 15 or 16, and he says, there are many things I have to tell you, but you cannot bear them all right now. And that's actually really instructive, obviously. I mean it's the Lord of heaven and earth saying that. And what he's saying is there's times when I know everything you need to hear, and I know everything that I could tell you, but that's not wise for me to do so because it will overwhelm you. And counselors can feel that way. Counselors can actually err in doing too much too soon. And so I would say a few things. First, I counsel parents. I mean with a wonderful family right now in a similar situation. And my advice is let's do one thing at a time. So let's pick one truth, one promise, one goal, and let's focus on that. And as soon as we obtain that, then we will have seen progress, and we'll be able to then move on to other elements. But let's pick one, and let's try to pick the thing that's going to have the biggest bang for the buck. And I think this is a biblical principle. So I mentioned John 16. Paul, the apostle, says we are changed into the likeness of Christ from one degree of glory to another, just one degree. And so what I'm looking for in my counselees is I love the light switch moments where the light comes on. It's a massive change. There's revival that breaks out in their life. I love that. And there's stories like that. And that happens. Obviously, that happens in the Bible. But also, there's a lot of times usually where it's one degree of glory to another. And so how I describe it for an analogy would be like this. When I meet with a child and their family, we have a foundation. We're building. We had a plot of land, and we're building a house. And my goal in that one session with that family is to put down one brick and put cement around it, just one brick. And then during the week, they're going to put down another brick. And then they come back, and I'm going to put down a brick. And the next week, they might get two bricks. And eventually, time goes by, and we realize, you know what? We've got a structure here. We've got a house we're building. But that's slow work, and it's faithful work, but it's one brick at a time. So I would start at, if the question is, where should you start? A few key areas to start. The heart. You can talk about the heart regardless of the scenario, regardless of the tragedy. The heart is important. And you can grieve. The Bible says rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. You can grieve with that hurting heart. You can understand where they're coming from. You can see where their motives are and where they need to grow. So the heart is one area that's always relevant to talk about. The gospel is always relevant to talk about. So Jesus experienced great suffering in the garden. Jesus experienced great suffering on the cross. Jesus experienced the scorn and wrath and shame and sin of the world. So the gospel is crucial. And then another area that I always focus on is the biblical method of change. So putting off and putting on. So what is one thought you can put off? And what is one thought you can put on? A biblical truth. What is one habit that you can put off that's sinful and holy? And what is one thought that is righteous that you can put on? And you can't only do – you have to get there for all of them. So you need the heart. You need the gospel. You need to put off, put on. You have to attack all of them at some point and get to all of them. But how you get there and the slowness of it varies from case to case. Yeah, and I think that comfort is something that I think that a lot of people think that they need to go to the counselor. They need to go – parents may say, we need to go to you because of – and I know their heart's desire is for their child to be fixed and better and well all right away. But remembering that what you said before, it's a slow process and not underestimating the role of comfort in a lot of that because sometimes there's not something to say. It's just holding them. It's being there with them. When did Job's counselors stop being good counselors? Yeah. Someone said there's a reason why the book of Job is really long. It's a long book, and there's a reason for that. It's because a lot of times when there's an immense tragedy, you need to wait before you say something. You really do, and there's wisdom in that. You don't want to be unhelpful, but you've got to provide comfort. I think that wisdom is such a key word. It's such a key word. Because there's a vast difference from knowing what to say to knowing when to say it. A word well-timed. Yes, and I see that so much in believers. They're growing, and they're getting knowledge. They're getting something. They're maybe listening to a podcast or listening to a sermon. They're like, oh, I got this answer for this. But wisdom. Oh, man. Wisdom is just so key. Yeah, that's right. And wisdom comes down to love. So how would you want to be treated? So if you just had a tragedy, how would you want to be loved? Would you just want someone to come in and be like, hey, stop crying? Well, no, of course not. That's actually sinful. That's harsh. You wouldn't want to be treated that way. But at the same time, you wouldn't want someone to only say, oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. It's really hard. At some point, you're going to want someone to say, hey, can you give me some hope? Can you tell me that things are going to be different? And do unto others as you would have them do to you. That can be tricky. It requires wisdom. And if you're seeking to love, you will do well. If that's what you're shooting for, how would I feel loved in this situation? And maybe that won't get you right all the time, but at least get you started going somewhere. You need that love and knowledge going hand in hand. But start with, how would I want to be comforted? How would I want to be treated? And then how can I serve them by doing that? That's so good. So I want to, just for a moment, I've used this method that you gave several times. But let's say you've got a parent that comes in. They're somewhat new Christians. They're not spiritually mature. Maybe they're raised in church or like they're just not as familiar with Scripture. And you say, okay, I want you to, you know, you need to be studying Scripture. You need to be reading your Bible. And they say, well, I'm not familiar with Scripture enough to, you know, really even be effective in helping my child out enough. You gave these four things to do when it comes to Bible reading. And I want you to talk about this for a moment because as my wife, she's a drama teacher, loves drama, loves English, did plays her whole life. I got into it a little bit in college. But we have began to do a little bit of this even when we read through Little Pilgrim's Progress and reading through some things where my kids were even acting out some of these things and role-playing a little bit of Scripture. And so how can this be an effective tool for a parent who comes in and says, I've got a kid that's hurting, and they just need to interact with Scripture more? Yeah. How can we use this? So I'll tell you four things I'd recommend. Maybe it's a different four things than you've heard me speak on before. So if I give a different four, then maybe you can tell me which ones I covered. So you're right. This is a thing. Parents can feel overwhelmed. It's actually a great opportunity. So whenever I counsel kids, I never counsel kids alone. I always counsel with someone else, and I always counsel in conjunction with the family. And it's actually a great opportunity because the parents realize their kids are hurting, and they realize, you know what? I need to be in the Bible myself, but I haven't been doing that. And how can I do that? And so what I would say would be read to, rehearse, retell, and then read to. So those are the four things I typically recommend. And here's what I mean by that. So take a simple passage. So let's take the case study of the little boy. One of the assignments that I asked the family to do was to look at the story of Joseph. So if you think about Joseph, it's a narrative story. It's got lots of twists and turns. It's exciting. It's not boring. And also, it's filled with tragedy. So there's tons of tragedy. There's tons of suffering. And I have a few different kids' Bibles I'd recommend. And I said, okay, pick this kid's Bible and buy it. And then there's three sections on Joseph. So each night, pick a different one. And what I want you to do is the first time, I want you to read it to them. So you just read it to them. Tell it in a dramatic way. That's great. But then during the day or maybe the next night, I want you to rehearse it. So summarize it. Don't just read it. But say, hey, buddy, remember this? And when this happened, when Joseph was thrown in the pit and here's what happened, rehearse it. And then have them summarize it too. So not just you summarize it, but have them try to summarize it. And then retell the story. So then not just summarize it, but Bible closed, have them retell it. And some of the most fascinating moments where they tell you what they actually heard, they can come out during that time where they retell you the story. And sometimes they'll get it right. Sometimes they won't. Sometimes it'll be a mixed bag. But they're engaging it. And then if the kid's old enough, have them read the story to you. So you read it first. You rehearse it. Summarize it. Have them retell it or you retell it. And then have them, if the kid's old enough, to read it back to you. And that's simple. It doesn't take long with these kids' Bibles or even with a small passage of Scripture. You're talking at 15 minutes max or five minutes typically of this kind of thing. And if you do that every day, every night, or even five times a night or five times a week, if you do that, I'm telling you, kids are sharp. They will get it. And you will grow as a parent in a way that you're meditating on the law of the Lord day and night. You're just doing it with your family. So I don't know if those are the exact four things that you heard me say, but those are four I'd recommend. I hope that's helpful. Man, that is awesome. Those are the four that I use even in my own parenting right now. One of the things that lately that my wife, she's just been overwhelmed in the sense of how much our kids watch and observe what we do. And just in parenting. And she decided that as she's reading through the Bible this year, she did something she's never done before. She's journaling the entire Bible. So she went out and bought a sketchbook. That's great. And she's got a page, a full page spread of Genesis. And so she's drawing creation, Exodus, Job. She's doing it chronologically. And so my daughter went, and she's seven, eight years old now. And she went in her room and got, just the other day on her own, went and got a notebook that she had. And took mom's sketchbook and began copying what she had written down and what she had done in her own. And so now she's reading and writing stuff down just like mom was. And my wife told me the other day, she said, she is picking up on things that I wish I would have picked up on at eight years old because she's seeing me do it. And she's seeing me live through this. And it goes back to this whole thing of retelling, rehearsing, rereading. And so we have been trying to intentionally do that in our parenting. But when a parent does come and they're not spiritually mature in the area of knowing Scripture, this can be a daunting task. Well, where do I start? What do I do? How am I going to do I just start in Genesis and start talking about how things bad happen? And then we get to Leviticus, and I don't even know what's going on. So these are great areas, like you said, in the life of Joseph going through. I think you've mentioned in some other areas, picking good stories, Jesus in the garden or their sorrow, Jesus going through trials with Lazarus, being able to go through different areas and act out those things, rehearse them and use them in a way to where we as parents can really ultimately help our children when they go through these different situations. That's great. I found that – so if you pick up a Bible – excuse me. So sorry. If you pick up a Bible, like the Beginner's Gospel Bible by Jared Kennedy, that Bible, it's for toddlers. So the age range is like four to eight is probably what I would say. Or Kevin DeYoung's The Biggest Story Bible that just came out. Great book. It's for eight and up pretty much. You pick a story like that, and they've already done a lot of the work of highlighting key Bible passages that give you the overarching view of the whole story of Scripture. And you pick one of those, and you read it, and then you can go, okay, there's a reason they picked this. This is a key highlighting story. Maybe I can go personally and read that story in the actual text of Scripture. And you can go, and you can read like, okay, here's the text. And then you may not go back to your child and read in full Genesis 35 through 50. But you can see like, oh, there's a verse that says when Joseph encounters his brothers in forgiveness, and it says what God meant for evil – or what Satan meant for evil, God meant for good. Well, that's a verse I want them to memorize. Like, that's a powerful verse. And like in the case study, that was one of the highlights. We're able to say, okay, there's bitterness towards the family for this incident happening. Well, once we talk through tragedy, once we talk through comfort and suffering, we're going to have to get to forgiveness. And Joseph has a key verse in there that we can memorize and meditate on. And that comes from the original text that the Bible story, the kid's Bible story, may not have picked up on exactly. But the parent can go and then on their own, as a guided way of study, they can read that for themselves, come back, and then bring that to the child. And it can be instructive to the parents as they think through, okay, here are – here someone else has already done the hard work for me of identifying some key Bible verses. Now I can just go and read them in the text and be helped by it themselves. That's great, John. Any other things before we give a couple of wrap-up statements? We'll ask Sean one more question about homework, just what parents can do for homework. John, anything before that? No. I was – well, if that was your last one, I was going to do the resources. Do you want to save that for the very end or do you want me to go ahead and ask it? Yeah, so let's do that at the very end. So, Sean, what are some homework areas would you give kids, the parents, and in their parenting life? What are some homework areas that you would give in a situation like this? Let's say a kid's coming with anxiety or night terrors. You mentioned those things. What would you do to help in those areas for the week coming ahead? Yeah, so I love this question. I actually love the homework and the resource questions. I'm pretty passionate about both of them. So I would say a few things. When I'm thinking about talking to a child, so as a pastor, as a counselor, you're never just talking to the child. So you can't just think child only. You have to think parents as well. So here are three categories that I give for homework assignments that I think every person should think about as they're talking to children. So first is the kid himself. The kid himself, obviously, the kid needs to be doing something. Then the parents need to be doing something. And what I mean by parent is I mean something to help them grow. So technically, it's a secret that whenever I have a kid counseling case come, I really don't have just one counseling case. I actually have two or three, and it's the parents. So I'm actually counseling them through the process. So kid, parent, and then parenting. Parenting. And what I mean by that is a homework assignment that helps them become a better parent. So the reason why I have those distinctions is because there's a biblical principle that is very strong that the issues that the child is dealing with are often not disconnected from the issues the parents are dealing with. So a lot of times, not every time, but a lot of times, if a kid is angry, it's because someone's angry in the home. I'm not saying that they're not morally responsible. The child is morally responsible. But they're learning that behavior from somewhere, and they're sitting in the exhibit. So it's oftentimes when I'm counseling the kid on anger, one of the parents needs also help counseling on anger too. Or anxiety. Oftentimes, if the child's anxious, well, that's because maybe the mom or the dad or the grandmother is anxious. So I'm identifying issues with the parent, with the kid, and then parenting, helping them grow. So let me give you some examples. So it could be, let's take the case study we've been dealing with, with the little guy. One of the assignments that I gave him was, okay, so I would like for you to memorize Psalm 23, verses 1 and 2. So something obtainable, something easy. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. So their job is to memorize that. The parents are going to have to help with that. It typically depends on the age. And then I would like for you to come back and draw for me, by the time the next time we meet, draw a shepherd. So that's pretty simple. You can draw a shepherd. I had one sweet girl. She loved to dance. She loved dance and ballet and music. And so I said, hey, I want you to listen to this song by Shai Lin. And I want you to come up with your own dance for it and show it to your family. And then you can sing it for me when you come back the next time. She loved that. That was a huge hit. But that takes data gathering to know that, hey, she likes to do that kind of thing. If I assigned that to the boy, he would look at me like I have 10 heads and he wouldn't care at all. And rightly so. And he'd be like, what are you doing? You're strange. But it meant a lot to this family. So find something they like, whether it's coloring, drawing. I've had people that say, like, I've had kids who are very sharp readers. And they're like, I read. And so I'm like, okay, here's a homework assignment. Little Pilgrim's Progress. Little Pilgrim's Progress is a great book. So I'm bleeding over in the resources. What I want you to do is you read all the time. You're a voracious reader. Why don't you read through it? I want you to tell me every instance of sadness in the Pilgrim's Progress. So they come back and they're like, well, he was sad when he was in the Slew of Despond. He was sad when this event happened, when he was struck by Apollyon. And that way, they're on their own mining the truths of the Bible and mining the truths of God's care. And they're taking initiative. So that's the kid. But yeah, it has to be obtainable. It can't be overwhelming. For the parent. So I love to assign either devotionals or passages of Scripture that target the specific area that they're dealing with. So, for instance, I had one family I was talking with and anxiety was a big deal. The little girl was dealing with panic attacks. And the mom was anxious too. And so I said, look, here is, you could recommend a helpful book by Paul Tauches. He has a 31-day devotional on anxiety. And here's what I want you to do as the parent. I want you to pick that book up. It's a page a day. You can do a page a day. Read a page a day. But here's what I want you to do. I want you to highlight in there one sentence that you're going to share with your daughter on the way to school. So just one sentence that you're going to highlight. So they would highlight it. They'd have one sentence. They'd either write it on a note card or they'd just have the book with them. They'd get in the car and they would say, you know what I was reading last night, Sally? I was reading about how the Bible says be anxious for nothing, but with everything, with prayer and supplication. We need to pray about some stuff today. Let's pray. And so super simple, super attainable, very easy. Or if it's anger, I would assign Ed Welch's really helpful book, a small book about a big problem. 50 short one-page devotionals on anger. Incredibly convicting. Very wonderful. And you can highlight one thing from that and share with them. And then parenting. This one is where the rubber meets the road. It's super important. So I'm wanting to know, like, how much time are they spending with their kid? How much time? Like, what does discipline look like? What does it not look like? Where do they perceive they need to grow in parenting? Where does their kid think they need to grow in parenting? And then I would assign, whether it's a podcast on parenting or I love Ted Tripp's Shepherding the Child's Heart. His sequel book, Instructing the Child's Heart, is also just as good as Shepherding the Child's Heart. And so I'll assign something like that and say, hey, read this chapter between now and the next time we meet. And I want you to tell me your honest thoughts about it and how it relates to your parenting. And that always, if they do the homework, if they do the homework, it can really produce fruitful conversations. That's really, really great. Love it. Well, one of the things that we do at the end is always with our guests and with the subject we've been covering is ask for maybe one, two, or three resources that we can point somebody towards. Now, I've already wrote down, and we're going to include these in the show notes, but I've already wrote down The Greatest Story by Kevin DeYoung, The Beginner's Gospel Bible, Jerry Kennedy, Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp, and Instructing a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp. So we're going to put those in the show notes. But, Sean, do you have anyone that you're like, this is a must? Yes, I do. I've got a few. I'll try to be self-contained here. I absolutely love and cannot recommend more highly CCEF's books. It's a series called Good News for Little Hearts. And it's a story about these forest creatures, these forest animals. And I can't remember how many they have now. I think they have like nine in the series now. But I'll give you a couple of titles. So Jax's Tale Twitches is by David Powlison. Buster's Ears Trip Him Up is another one by Ed Welch. Zoe's Hiding Place is another one by David and Nan Powlison. And let me tell you why I like those books. They're very engaging. They're not boring. They're beautifully written. They target one particular theme. And they show how a particular Bible passage just shines a light on that particular area. And they instruct the parents as you read the story to the children. So I've had so many parents tell me, you know what? I needed that book maybe even more than my kid did. And it teaches them to parent as they read it. So it doesn't require them reading another book. So I recommended Shepherding a Child's Heart and Instructing a Child's Heart. That requires an extra step on the parent. This book, you read it with your child, and you're getting instructed as you read it. And then in the back, it comes with these perforated edges for Bible passages that they can memorize. I have read the whole series. I love all of them in the series. But probably Jax's Tale Twitches and Zoe's Hiding Place are probably the top ones. Is Jax's Tale the one about anger? Yes. Yes, we got that one with our son. It was great. It was great. And then it has the part where the parents sin in the book, and they get angry, and they have to ask for forgiveness. So it's really good. Gus Loses His Grip is one on basically longing, lust, and coveting things you shouldn't want. And that one's a good one as well. So that would be the one series I'd recommend. I probably love them all. Awesome. Awesome. Absolutely great. Love it. Thank you so much, Sean. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your ministry. And Sean is not just does counseling here with some of these situations. He's also co-wrote three books that James highlighted in the last interview that we had with Sean, Letters to a Romantic on Dating, Engagement, and the First Five Years of Marriage by PNR Publishing. And so we recommend those two. They're all fantastic. But we thank you for your ministry and all that you're continuing to do there at First Baptist. Well, that's very kind. I love you guys. I'm thankful to be a part of it. Thanks for having this conversation. I think it is honoring to the Lord. And I pray it helps many kids grow in their great love of God, knowing that God loves them so much that he died for them. So I'm thankful for you guys sharing that good news. Absolutely. James? Well, thank you so much, Sean, for coming. And until next time, to God be the glory. I found my new name. I found that good grace. I found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning that has no ending. I found that second chance. I found my best friend. I found my forgiveness. I found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed the content of the podcast, please do us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing the podcast on whatever podcast platform you listen to. I will see you next time.

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