4. History of the IFB Part 1 - J. Frank Norris Part 1/Response to Abuse at Hopewell Baptist Church

This is the For Freedom podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now here's your host, John Holyfield. Welcome to the For Freedom podcast. I am your host, John Holyfield, where we expose legalism and abuse in the IFB movement and attempt to help those grow in grace through the scriptures. I'm excited to be with you today and excited about the episode. We are going to dive into some history in the IFB movement. And this is something that I don't believe is really well known, even among those within the IFB. I think a couple of key points that most people have a knowledge of, but the history of the movement, most people don't really go as far back as John R. Rice, the Sword of the Lord, or Jack Hiles, and they're not real sure of the history there. They may know a name or two here and there. But as far as understanding how it got started, who were the key players, and how those men were, this is something that I've spent the last few months researching very thoroughly. And I'm excited to get into this content. Before we do, though, before we do, I wanted to give a response to something. Now, part of the podcast is about exposing abuse. And in recent events, in the past week, there was actually an instance within the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement of abuse that actually blew up with media attention, especially over social media. I wanted to give a shout out to Eric Swarzynski and the Preacher Boys podcast. He is doing a fantastic job as his main focus in the area of abuse and really presented some good information on this case. And it is still ongoing. This is the Hopewell Baptist Church in Napa, California. The Hopewell Baptist Church is pastored by a guy named Mike Ray. Mike Ray, my connection with Mike Ray, I've never met the guy. I've never even heard the guy preach before. When I was in Bible college, my major was youth ministry. So one of the classes I took for youth ministries to train to be a youth pastor, we had a textbook. In that textbook was one of the textbooks for that class was Mike Ray wrote a book from his experiences being a youth pastor called Called or Crazy. And I remember reading that book for that class. I also remember while I was at college, they did this thing called the Hall of Faith or the Hall of... I don't know what they called it. But basically, beside the auditorium, there was this long lobby and they put portraits, painted portraits of past, you know, quote, air quotes, men of God within the movement through the little lobby area. And they did this thing, this conference, and they would honor a youth pastor of the year, put his portrait in there. And Mike Ray's was in there. So that's what I know of him and knew that he had started this or had been pastoring this church out in Napa, California. Well, this instance hit social media. Apparently, there was a youth pastor or paid staff member at Mike Ray's church who was involved in some type of sexual abuse. Now, the interesting thing is, is that he's been getting a lot of heat at his church. So he decides last week to hold a meeting with the church. And he does make it open. He makes it open to church members and maybe those that were former members of the church, which I don't understand why. I mean, if you want to be above board, why not make it open, completely open? I mean, you got nothing to hide. Be transparent. I don't really get that. But I want to give some, the responses can be found. Go to Preacher Boys, doc, Facebook page, social media pages. Eric's done a lot of work really just putting the information out there. And I wanted to respond with some of my problems that I have with this IFB response from Mike Ray's church and then what's going on there. So first of all, he gave this separate meeting. It lasted about 13 minutes. You can go watch the video. The video recording is a little hard to hear. Eric also put out a transcript of it. So you can go read that as well. So problem number one, he begins by bragging about himself and trying to make himself look good. This is utterly ridiculous. He starts off the meeting. This meeting is supposed to address sexual abuse allegations going on within the church with a staff member. And he starts off by saying, by saying that, you know, how many of you in here were led to the Lord by me? Stand up. How many of you were coming to Christ while I was here at this church? Stand up. And then makes this little pathetic joke of, what's wrong with the rest of you people? I mean, all of that is manipulation of criticism that's been put towards him on how he's handled this thing. And now he starts off by sort of saying, well, look at the good that I've done. As if he has anything to do with the salvation of a soul. That's all the work of God. So this person who was on staff member, on staff there at the church, his name is Eric. I don't have his last name written down. Apparently, he was the son-in-law of Mike Ray. He was a paid staff member. And according to Ray and their statement, he had an affair with the woman. Problem number two, before we get into the victim here. Problem number two, he has an affair and he's not immediately dismissed. I mean, this is one of the huge problems we have in the independent fundamental of this movement. And not just this. Not just contained in the IFB movement. This is among many in the broader church movement in the world today. And that is the low standard for an elder. The low standard for preachers. The Bible has a high standard and it's mentioned as above reproach or blameless. This guy has an affair and you don't fire him immediately? Issues there. Number three, he claims that the girl involved was an adult. Many of those who were there at the church during the time have spoken out on social media claiming that this is not true. She was 16 at the time, many have said. And this took place nine years ago. So there's some pushback on Mike Ray's stance there that maybe he's lying to try to make the situation better. In fact, there is a police investigation going on into this case. Now, if she's not a minor, there's no investigation needed. If this was an affair between two adults, there's no law broken. But, maybe he's not telling the whole truth. He then goes on to say that after he finds out about this, he sits down and tells the guy to tell him the whole story. Then he sits down with the girl, tells her to tell him the whole story. And then he does this. He sits down with her parents. This makes absolutely no sense. Okay? If she's an adult, why are you sitting down with her parents to ask her parents what to do? He basically says that he asks the parents, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? You want me to bring him before the church? And if I bring him before the church, then I've got to bring your daughter before the church? And I'm sitting there thinking, why are you bringing people before the church? This is another aspect of this church movement. The IFB movement. They are bankrupt when it comes to understanding church discipline. Go to Matthew 18. This is where the church discipline area comes in. Again, I probably need to do an episode on church discipline. The church discipline mode of conduct, code of conduct in Matthew 18 does not say bring the person in front of the church. You do not parade them in front of the church. It says bring the matter before the church. Read the text, people. Okay, so. And he asks her, why are you asking the parents? And he tells them, he says, if I bring him before the church, then they're going to be wanting to know who the girl is. And so, really what this was, is he had an agenda already set. He wanted to keep it quiet. And he was manipulating the parents to try to go along with his idea. Alright, next. He says, he says this to them. If he confesses, then everyone's going to wonder who this girl is. I feel like he could be restored here. Okay, I'm not against biblical restoration. I am all for biblical restoration. The entire purpose of church discipline is for biblical restoration. You cannot begin to restore someone until they repent. And they cannot repent as long as they continue to stay. There's no consequences to their sin as long as they're staying. And we're talking about just the context on if this is unfair. Much less if this is sexual abuse. Which I tend to believe that it was sexual abuse based on the testimony of many of the other witnesses that were there at the church that time. Not witnesses of the abuse, but witnesses of the occasion. Oh, this is ridiculous. Then he says that he scaled back this staff member's duties. But he kept him on staff. But didn't announce it to the church. So there's no transparency to the church. He doesn't inform the church on what's going on. He keeps it quiet. He covers it up. That's exactly what a covered up is. And then he has some confusing comments. He talks about another situation that's been... They've been experiencing some setback or some attack on. People have been demanding answers for another instance of abuse of a minor that he claims was not at the church was during some... But his comments on that seemed very confusing. I didn't quite understand what was going on in that situation. He then tells that he has, since in the past recent events, he has dismissed this staff member. And they have started a committee to hear if there's anything like this. This committee is going to be responsible for hearing stories and taking into these accounts. Again, ridiculous. You don't need a committee. If somebody feels that the church culture is one to where if abuse takes place, they can... And they have somebody that will defend them, protect them, be there for them. They can go to them. Then what's the next method? You don't need a committee to hear the story and decide what to do next. You call the police. And it just makes me think they're bankrupt on their idea of how to handle victims. He closes the meeting out by using Psalm 84. And this was one of the areas that really aggravated me as a preacher. He uses Psalm 84 and talks about how they're going through a valley. And he says this. He says, I'm going through a valley. Our church is... My family is going through a valley. Our church is going through a valley. And he never once mentions that any victim, that any woman or girl that was apparently involved in this is going through a valley as well. And that is extremely sad. At the end of the video, Amber Alves, who was there, I think part of the... Was part of the... It was in the church during the time. Tries to stand up and ask some questions and get some answers. And it appears from the video and from the sound that... The audio that she was quieting down. And then what happens next? So that's the end of that meeting. What happens next is you have this new guy, this character out in the northwest... Out in the west pastoring... He pastors a church out there named Mike Johnson. This guy's a real piece of work. They have him in there. And he basically goes in there and preaches some message on a church going through a storm. You can see some of these clips on IFB Preacher Clips on Twitter. And it's classic IFB circling the wagon, protecting the abusers and the cover-up and not the victims. And so that is... I just want to say that that is absolutely despicable. It's disgusting. It is not God-honoring. It is not Christ-honoring. Okay? And this is an area... This is a prime example where we need those. They want to show... These different guys out there who say, Abuse is not that bad, but when it does happen, we're against it too. Alright, well stand up and say you're against it. This is the opportunity. This is... This is... Here's your stance. Let's see... Put your money where your mouth is. Let's see if you can back it up, what you said, whenever you say you're against abuse too. Okay? Because there is a police investigation going on into this thing. So apparently there's enough for the authorities to see that there may have been some wrongdoing here. So let's see. This has got national attention. It's in the IFB movement. Let's see how they react. So far, I have privately heard of some that are distancing themselves from this guy. And I appreciate that. I applaud that. But publicly, I'm seeing circling the wagons here. I'm seeing standing up for that. But that's... I didn't want to take a whole lot of time. That's a response towards the Hopewell Baptist situation. And so now let's get into the history of the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement. The Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement, the IFB movement, can really be understood as... It's really about a hundred-year-old movement. But understanding this history, you need to go back a little bit farther to understand the layout of Christianity in America entering into the 1900s. Okay? So you had the era of revivalism going on in the country. You had guys like Charles Finney, which I'm not a fan of Finney. I think Finney is misused. There are some IFB preachers in the past that hold up Finney as some kind of great guy. Finney was off on the gospel. I don't think... In my personal opinion, I don't think Charles Finney was a converted man. He was very manipulative. And one of the first people to really introduce and begin utilizing the altar call method of trying to get more numbers and get people... Regardless, though, he is understood during this time of what's called in history... In American history is what's known as the Second Great Awakening. Out of this comes another big-time revivalist by the name of D.L. Moody. And so D.L. Moody was a good Christian man. Not Reformed, but a good Christian man. Good preacher. Loved God. Served God. And was used of God. And really had a far-reaching influence. But many wanted to continue to carry that on. D.L. Moody dies in 1899, right at the turn of the century. Really, the next person to really take on that mantle in revivalism is a former baseball player turned Presbyterian preacher... Which some Presbyterians don't like the claiming because his theology was terrible compared to what Presbyterians are known for. And so Billy Sunday starts the sawdust revivals. He's really preaching mainly on the problems with alcoholism. Leads to teetotal movement. This is during the time that a big political movement is going on in the country to move towards prohibition as well. And get rid of alcohol. And that was a big thing there. But also on the rise, coming out of Germany, coming out of Europe, was the ideas of modernism. And it seemed that to many in America that the modernist views were infiltrating not just Baptists but other denominations. And many in the different denominations fought this. So you had J. Gresham Machen in the Presbyterians. You had B.B. Warfield of the Presbyterians that were writing some fantastic theological works to try to fight modernism and the Presbyterians. Modernism was making its way through the Baptist denomination as well. And it was through this that they began to work together. Actually, many of the denominations, the conservatives in many of these denominations, work together to try to fight modernism across the board. And there was this guy named Curtis Lee Laws. He was the editor of the Baptist periodical The Watchman Examiner. He was the first guy to term the word fundamentalist. And so they got together and they were financed by two brothers to put together and produce a series of 12 short books filled with essays defending Christian orthodoxy. The books collectively titled The Fundamentals, A Testimony to the Truth, would be sent free of charge to every minister, missionary, or other Christian worker for whom the committee could find an address. There's just some names of the 64 or so people that were contributed to the work. You had a guy named L.W. Marshall, a Methodist evangelist. Princeton Theology was represented by B.B. Warfield and Low Anklanism by Dyson Haig and H.G.G. Mull. C.I. Schofield was only one of several who represented the Premillennial Bible Conference movement. Oberlin, geologist George Frederick Wright, contributed to the work. Other significant names included Arno C. Gablin, James M. Gray, A.T. Pearson, Philip Morrow, G. Campbell Morgan, E.Y. Mullins, Sir Robert Anderson, George W. Lasher, J.C. Ryle, Charles Trumbull, and W.H. Griffith Thomas. George Marsden, who has done fantastic work, probably the best work on the history of fundamentalism in the 1920s, summarizes the content of this document that they produced. I'm going to read this. The remaining articles are more difficult to classify. Each of the first five volumes, which were otherwise heavy on higher criticism and doctrine, concluded with personal testimony. Five other volumes, volumes 7 through 11, ended with polemics against modern isms, Russellism, Mormonism, Eddieism, modern spiritualism, and Romanism, indicating, as is evident in most conservative publications of the era, that the alarm calls be breakdown of the evangelical consensus extended beyond the menace of Protestant liberalism. Beginning with volume 7, there was a decided shift toward more popular topics. Volume 12, devoted to evangelism and missions, was intended as the capstone of the enterprise. So during this time, you had sort of this coalition of guys that were working towards fundamentalism. And some of you are thinking, okay, so that's where the IFB movement started. Listen, stay with me, okay? This is where fundamentalism was going. Now, fundamentalism quickly deteriorates. It quickly deteriorates. That type of fundamentalism, I personally probably could have gotten behind, most likely, because they were standing for the key doctrines and the sufficiency of Scripture, the inerrancy of Scripture, and those types of things. But it wasn't long before a couple of personalities that had bombastic ministries were able to take the title fundamentalism and expand on it to their personal preferences. And enter J. Frank Norris. Alright? J. Frank Norris. Many in the IFB look at J. Frank Norris as the father of the independent fundamental baddest movement. And I personally would not disagree. Now, it's not a direct connection, but I do consider him the father of the movement. Now, really, the guy who gave the IFB movement its name, IFB movement, and pushed it forward and was able to help it grow was John R. Rice. But John R. Rice comes after, I mean, there's a direct link between those two, and I'm going to show that. But J. Frank Norris is the father of this movement. When I started studying J. Frank Norris, I was interested because there's several works done on Norris. And, you know, when you go to study history, you try to remove the preconceived notions. But I did have an idea of what I was going to try to prove. It was my intention to try to prove that this guy that the IFB always claims as their father, their forefather, this great guy that they try to be like, that once the truth is revealed about how he was, then they'd say, well, he wasn't really an IFB guy at all. He was actually more along a modern evangelical. That was what I expected to be. That was sort of my hypothesis. Okay, my actual research revealed a quite different type of conclusion. And that is that J. Frank Norris most, quite possibly, could be the worst of the worst. I mean, he was the starting of it and quite possibly could have been the worst one of them all. I have said this as I did my research. I began to think this. The best way to describe J. Frank Norris, if I was to describe J. Frank Norris, I would do it this way. Imagine Donald Trump as a Baptist preacher. Or, if you're familiar with these two guys, Jack Hiles and Peter Ruttman rolled into one. Imagine taking Peter Ruttman and Jack Hiles and put them into one and you get J. Frank Norris. But the IFB do look at him as their father. In fact, Jack Treber says this about J. Frank Norris. One man discovered his journey. I introduce him to you tonight. His name was Frank. We know him as J. Frank Norris. Pastor. America's pastor at that time. He pastored a great church in Fort Worth, Texas. It became the largest church in America. Over 5,000 people would come every Sunday. Come back on Sunday night to hear what they called the Texas Tornado preach. A church in Detroit was without a pastor. And they called him. They said, we want you to pastor. He said, well, I'm already pastoring the church. They said, you can do both. Both those churches were America's two largest churches. You did not know if he was going to be in Fort Worth or if he was going to be in Detroit. What a mighty, mighty man of God. Both church grew to 3,000, 4,000, 5,000. And he ministered to both at the same time for 13 years. Norris is what we would call a fighting fundamentalist. He fought the liquor crowd. He fought gambling. He fought the communists. He fought the courts. He fought the liberal theologians of the day. And he would fight them. One day on a Sunday morning, he announced in his church, I am going to tonight expose a man in this church that is living in sin and immorality. His wife doesn't know it, but tonight I'll call his name. They said that afternoon, 13 men came to his office and said, please, don't put my wife through this. I want to confess, I've been living in sin. He was fearless. Jesus, J. Frank Norris Church had the great radio ministry and towers, the large, large choir, the big, huge adult Sunday school classes and the small children's classes and the great seminary and then the college institute. And he produced men and women for the gospel ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's interesting. Treber says he was a mighty man of God. So that's what we're going to look at and see, was this guy a mighty man of God? So let's look at J. Frank Norris and the time that we have left. We may not get through all of it and may have to do a part two on Norris, but let's jump into J. Frank Norris. J. Frank Norris. Okay, here we go. Early life. J. Frank Norris was a young boy and his dad moved the family from Alabama and they went to Texas. Now during this time, Texas was still sort of in the cowboy days. So think about in your minds, picture the old west cowboy type of days and J. Frank Norris' dad took him down there. His dad was an alcoholic and his dad was abusive. His dad beat his mom and beat J. Frank Norris and his brothers. And so J. Frank Norris, as a child, wanted to get rid of his dad's alcohol. There was one instance where his dad's just bad character got him involved with a gang of cowboys and they came to his homestead and were going to kill him. And Norris was a young boy, was working out in the field, saw them pushing his dad around and took off running. And before they shot his dad, he got in front of the gun and pushed one of the guys. They then shot him three times as a boy. Now he survived, but it really took him about two years at that time. He was on his deathbed a couple of times and he was basically bedridden for two years recovering from those gunshot wounds. Norris would, as he grew, would eventually end up going to ministry school to become a preacher. He went to Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. And he actually graduated from the seminary and graduated early, graduated a year early. And after that, he moved to Texas and began to work at a church in Texas and quickly ended up working with a newspaper periodical, which were popular at that time, that was called the Baptist Standard or the Standard. And he took it over. In 1921, he changed the paper's name to the Searchlight. It became many things to J. Frank Norris. It was a place to publish his sermons and those of some others who agreed with him on one topic or another. It was a tool to promote himself and his enterprises. And it became a weapon against his enemies, real or perceived. He grew fantastically. His right-hand man, his assistant pastor there in Fort Worth, was a guy named Louis Ensminger. And he wrote sort of a biography on J. Frank Norris. It was really a puff piece on Norris. And he talks about the moment where J. Frank Norris' ministry sort of changes. Norris is at a revival meeting, and apparently he gets overcome with some kind of emotion. He says this was the moment that he got saved after he was actually in the ministry. And it was at that point, of course, many people, they saw what they called a revival, that many coming to be saved. And it was at that point that his ministry changed. He became a different type of a preacher. He became very more confrontational and in-your-face. In fact, let me play a clip right now. This is some audio clip of J. Frank Norris preaching. Well, let me call attention to a very, very important matter. You ought to help me. I'm so prostituted that I cannot preach when I see people in my own circle. I feel that I have faith. Now, some of the best friends I got here and some of them I love. You have a habit of talking to people else. Now, I'm going to stop it this morning. Now, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to call your name right off. He said, well, I can hear me. Well, you got it and move. Something I'm right about, church. It's into life. It's poor etiquette. And when I talk to church when I grow up, I pay for it when I got home. And you're going to pay for it before you get home. I know people don't mean to disturb me. But it's a sad meaning to see yourself. And if you think I don't see, I don't see everything there's on any matter. Now, I'm sorry I have to call a patient. That's why I call a patient several days. I'm just assured to call your name. And you sit and call. Do you never doubt it? You better put a turn around and go with him then. Now, see, you ain't got no more talking. We'll talk to you right on the shore tonight. Worry about you. You just confess your sins and prove it. But to me, it's a very serious responsibility to speak to a great crowd and to come to increasing the same because of the hour that we are now facing. I'm going to call attention to Worry first and I think to a D&D. And then throughout the entire plenitude, to find the different sacrifices, the burnt sacrifice, representing Christ giving all living self, then the sin of it is taking away our sins. Ladies and gentlemen, the mistake was made, after all instructions I give, to have the rubber so that I'm not getting wet, I got hanging wet a while ago through the path of somebody else. I'm not getting wet. I mean, it gives me a cold sicker, then I'll get wet and then I have to preach in wet clothes. And so if I call, why, you will forgive me for it, because you can't keep from it. I administer this public abuse to all those who were responsible for not having those references. If you say, not for my sake, but for the sake of the gospel, I should have been cared for better if I have to do it. Don't you think so? So I'm telling you why, that I may, I hope this course will occur, but it may be so, it will affect me for two or three days. And we come down then to that great hour, the day of all men in Jewish history to be obtained, from two boats to the distance of the cabin average, and the priest with his hands on the head of work. So yeah, I think that it's a little bit difficult to make out what he's saying. So at that time though, some of you may be thinking, well, I couldn't listen to that. Well, at different times for different people. I mean, I would say, judging by the crowds that he had, people enjoyed that type of preaching. And he grew, and he took the First Baptist Church of Fort Worth, Texas, and it exploded. J. Frank Norris was said by his friends to absorb, he absorbs information like a sponge absorbs water. He has been very fortunate in making contacts with the world, outstanding thinkers, heads of government, prime ministers, three different popes, editors, industrialists. He can walk into any circle, anywhere, and be at home. Ensminger said this about him. And, so he grew. Now that wasn't without, conflict, if you will, or controversy. That's the word I was looking for, controversy. In 1912, or somewhere around there, he got into some trouble at his church, or it was 1918, 1919, and the church building burnt down. He was preaching against some of the people in the, in the town of Fort Worth. And, so his, his testimony was that they were trying to kill him, and, burn down the building. They thought he was in the building, so they burnt down the church. And, actually, when it was investigated, many believed that it was actually Norris that set the fire himself, for the attention. And, actually, he was arrested, on that basis, and went to trial. Of course, he was found, not guilty. He had a major influence. Basically, when it come to Fort Worth, you either loved Norris, or was part of his large church. The church was boasted as being one of the largest churches, in the, in the, in the country, in America, or in the world. Or, you hated his guts. Many, though, many of those that were, in leadership, in the town of Fort Worth, in the city, hated Norris. So, then, this is where the IFB, loves to tell the Norris story, because he separates, air quotes there, from the Southern Baptist Convention. And, so that's where they say, we, they, they trace their history, to, well, the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement, started when J. Frank Norris, broke off from the Southern Baptist Convention, and became independent. Let's tell that story, okay? J. Frank Norris, loved, the Southern Baptist Convention. He loved the convention. He's a very much, a huge supporter, of the convention. Now, he did have an issue, with the modernism, that he saw, creeping into the convention, and into its institutions. Baylor was a very strong, Southern Baptist College, at the time, and it had a president, that was, very much influenced, by evolution, teaching, and modernism, and was allowing, many of that to go on, which Baylor, being right there in Texas, is in Norris's back door, so he, he, he wasted no time, in his paper, the searchlight, and in his pulpit, to just call him by name, rip it, and rip him, and then rip the Southern Baptist Convention, for it, which started to, cause conflict, between his relationship, and the leadership, but, they recognized, the size, of his ministry, the largeness of his church, the, how the people, like Norris, so they, they let it go, and let it slide, but, so that was, that was some of the conflict, with Norris, but, the Southern Baptist Convention, did something in 1919, they started, what they called, they launched a 75 million dollar campaign, 75 million campaign, it was an effort, to raise 75 million dollars, for Baptist causes, and missions work, over a five year period, 1919, and 1924, and, it, it really, this is differing opinions, it didn't work too well, on them, one of the issues, was, it was, the World War I, did not, people were not, the economy was not, bouncing back, as good, and, so things were not, doing so hot, for that, so therefore, the money, and the funds, were not coming in, so, they started putting pressure, on more of, the larger churches, and one of those churches, and, in fact, it should be noted, that Norris, was very much in favor, of the 75 million campaign, and endorsed it, but see, Norris was in the middle, of also trying to rebuild, their new auditorium, that just burnt down, and, continue to send funds, and so then, they started saying, we need you to start, giving more, and, there, became the conflict again, and so, there was back and forth, Norris started saying, public things, about the leadership, and saying how they, botched the 75 million campaign, and, calling them by name, and, and then, it was just, too much, there was conflict, between the, ripping the leadership, and the SBC, over, the modernism, ripping them, over the handling, of the 75 million campaign, trying to strong arm them, to get done, what he wanted done, in the convention, convention, and actually, what happened was, is eventually, the Tennessee Baptists, they came down there, to try to talk some sense into him, and he wasn't going to listen to him, and they denied his church, and him, seats at the state convention, well, he recognized, what was going on, and realized, he needed to do some damage control, so he tried to fix, some issues, and, they allowed him back, and, the next month, he went to another, meeting, and then, he kept, printing, the leader's names, in his searchlight, and so then, they just kicked him out, altogether, so he was actually, kicked out, the, J. Frank Norris, was actually kicked out, of the SBC, he didn't want to leave the SBC, he was kicked out, and so, that is, how, he became, quote unquote, an independent, but he still, didn't remain independent, from the, for the rest of, Norris's life, he is trying, his best, to start, new fellowships, find other organizations, to link up with, but, at the same time, continues to ruin, those relationships, because he couldn't, help himself, it was his way, or the highway, and he wanted to do, what he wanted to do, he was looking for attention, I don't know, it's really hard, to understand this guy, probably, one of the most, infamous things, that Norris is known for, is his murder trial, his murder trial, and so, his reputation, has spread, all over the country, people know Norris, he has developed, friendships, with, fundamentalist leaders, in the Baptist movement, in the north, W.B. Riley, was a prominent guy, in the north, a good one, T.T. Shields, was a guy, from Canada, that worked, with the northern Baptist, they all preached, in each other's pulpits, okay, but Norris was in the south, he was in Texas, and he was, he was causing some issues, he was again, focusing his attention, on the mayor, and the mayor, was a guy, named Meacham, Meacham also, was responsible, for a department store, he had a department store, there in Fort Worth, and was a businessman, was also the mayor, Norris didn't like him, in fact, Norris, five years before, had counseled, Meacham, and his wife, with a situation, where I think that he would, he, Meacham was having an affair, or something like that, Norris helped him, with their marriage, or something like that, or kept it quiet for him, or something, no, it was a divorce, Meacham got divorced, and Norris helped keep the things quiet, and that kind of stuff, but, but Meacham didn't like Norris, Norris didn't like Meacham, and, Norris was, preached a message, in his church, on Sunday morning, and, basically, ripped Meacham's face apart, and told him, and told everybody, about his affair, that he had had, five years earlier, so Meacham goes down, to his department store, and brings, talks to his manager, he's just, piping, hot mad, he is, he is fuming, and, his, one of his friends, that Meacham had, was a guy named, Dexter Chips, or D.E. Chips, now D.E. Chips, was a lumber yard businessman, that they weren't, to the same, they went to the same club, they were members, of the same club, there in Fort Worth, together, and so, he listened, quite often, Meacham, just, vent, about his, disdain, for J. Frank Norris, well, Meacham goes, to his department store, and asks the manager, of his department store, if he has any employees, that are members, of J. Frank Norris, his church, and he said, yeah, and they looked, at the records, and they said, they had six, they had six, employees, that were members, of J. Frank Norris, his church, so, they brought them, all in, one by one, and said, that if you, do not leave, find somewhere else, to go to church, then, you're fired, and two of them, I think two of them, agreed, and said, they'd find somewhere else, to go, four of them, said no, and they fired him, so, that next Sunday, J. Frank Norris, his entire Sunday morning message, he brought, those that were fired, from Meacham's department store, up on the platform, and spent the entire time, interviewing them, and basically talking about, how they were fired, because they, went to his church, and it was all, Meacham's fault, and that the mayor, of Fort Worth, was a sorry dog, all right, so that was that Sunday, this causes, many people, in Fort Worth, and of course, J. Frank Norris, his large congregation, to start, influencing people, to stop going, to Meacham's department store, which causes, much more, grief, for Meacham, than it had before, and, so, Meacham's friend, D.E. Chips, is, had enough, and they said, that he was, this guy was influenced, with alcohol, he probably, had been drinking, some say he did, some say no, but he was hot, he was angry, and he told Meacham, he was going to get Norris back, so that day, he's rummaging around, and according to court testimony, well, eyewitness testimony, he was there, one area, he called Norris, and asked if he was going to be at the church, and said he was coming by, he goes to the church, he goes up the stairs to the church, a guy, he meets an attendant, there at the church, the attendant takes him up to the offices, he goes into the offices, and, sits down with Norris, basically tells him, he needs to shut up, if I meet him, keep his mouth shut, he, throws a couple of curse words, at Norris, Norris says, he doesn't know why he's so upset, and he said, he'll do no such thing, you're not going to tell me what to say, and you just need to leave, and Chips stands up, and he says, you need to get out of here, and he says, I'm warning you, you need to hush, you need to shut up about, about Meacham, or I'll shut you up, something along those lines, Chips begins to walk out of the room, and, and, Norris says something to him, Chips turns around, after he leaves the room, and starts to walk back in the room, and Norris shoots him twice in the chest, now Norris's testimony is that he saw, Meacham, going for, a gun, and so he just shot him, he shot him three times, twice, two hit him in the chest, and, it came to find out, Chips had no gun on him, so, Norris killed him, right there in the church office, the next six months, he went, to a trial, he went, he went through, the murder trial, which garnered, many that do research, and history in this, in fact, where's the book, I got the book right here, David Stokes wrote a book, the entire book, is about the murder trial, fantastic book actually, called The Shooting Salvationist, The Shooting Salvationist, about the murder trial, so if you're interested in that at all, I recommend it, many of those that have researched this, say, that this is the equivalent, of the OJ Simpson trial, of their day, it garnered that much media attention, the pastor who killed, the businessman, in his church office, and, the interesting thing is, is that this, you know, boosted Norris's, of course he was found guilty, or found, I'm sorry, found not guilty, he was found innocent, self-defense, and, he went back to pastoring, and, so, he, his reputation grows, but there are some, in the north, that sort of, back off of him, a little bit, not completely, because he ends up, in the north, okay, so about three, or four years, after the murder trial, things died down, of course, Norris travels, around the country, and preaches, there's a church, in Detroit, Michigan, Temple Baptist Church, they call Norris, to come preach, he preaches there, a couple times, and they tell him, they want him, to become a pastor, he tells him, he tells them, I'm not leaving, my church in Fort Worth, and so finally, they want him so bad, they said, keep your church in Fort Worth, pastor this church as well, so J. Frank Norris, begins to pastor, two churches at the same time, one in Detroit, and one in Fort Worth, you say, how can a guy, pastor those churches, well he basically, just preached the churches, he did not pastor them, Lewis Ensminger, was responsible, for basically running, the church in Fort Worth, Texas, when this was going on, and he brought in, a guy named, Vic, G.B. Vic, George Bouchamp Vic, who ran the church in Detroit, and so those were his, his assistant pastors, who basically were the pastors, of those churches, while J. Frank Norris, traveled the country, ran the searchlight, his newspaper, ran all over the country, went back and forth, on weekends, to Temple, and Fort Worth, and did those, those churches, so, let's see, we're, let me cover, one more aspect of Norris, and we'll probably, do a part two, oh yeah, we're going to do a part two, one more aspect of Norris's ministry, or Norris's life, before, I close out today, and that is, racism, racism, Norris, J. Frank Norris, was without a doubt, a, an avid racist, Norris's approach, to things, the way he spoke out, against things, the way he was bombastic, the way he, he wrote in his paper, garnered him, a lot of attention, and some of that, attention, and support, were the, of course, the way that David Stokes, put it in his book, the white hooded hoodlums, of the invisible empire, the Ku Klux Klan, but this wasn't even, unique to Norris, much of fundamentalism, was influenced by, many of these guys, were very racist, and let me say this, about the independent fundamental, fundamental Baptist movement, the IFB movement, is a southern movement, now it's spread out, across the country, now, today, but when it's, it is, its roots, is strictly, from the south, you cannot trace, the roots, of the IFB movement, to the northern badness, separation, that of WB Riley, of, what, I just lost the other guy, Vaughn, was his, was his name Vaughn, but you, you can't, you can't trace those there, now, was Norris, did he spend some time, in the north, he did, but he eventually, separated from those guys, the, the separation, of the northern, Baptist convention, turned into the, General Association, of Regular Baptists, GARBC, and, as far as I'm concerned, I've, I've asked some people, I've done some, some, questioning, to some others, the IFB, and the GARBC, really have no relation, there's no fellowship, between the two movements, between the two associations, so, the IFB movement, is a southern movement, the, the book, Doctrine and Race, by, Mary Beth Matthews, Sweden, says, while not early, not all early fundamentalists, were from the American south, a fair few were, including, WB Riley, J.C. Massey, J. Frank Norris, Curtis Lee Laws, and J.R. Stratton, these men, used their, familial backgrounds, to make the case, that they, and not the African Americans, themselves, could speak, to questions, facing the race, that's an interesting book, that I would recommend, to read, you may not agree, with everything, that she, all of the things, but you need to read it, if you're interested in this, and you're interested in race, and, in the fundamentalists, I recommend reading it, because, you need to know, while, it doesn't, even though, even though, these guys, wouldn't have viewed themselves, as racist, actually, some of them, viewed themselves, as, helping the black race, and, as they would put it, in doing so, the way, that they went about it, was very racist, now, go back to, J. Frank Norris, there is no evidence, that J. Frank Norris, was even an official member, of the KKK, although, his chairman of Deakins, was the grand wizard, of the Texas, branch, but, it is clear, that he endorsed, and promoted the Klan, in his ministry, from his pulpit, on the radio, and, in his newspaper, readers, of the searchlight, regularly, saw advertisement, for Klan activities, and publications, in its pages, such as one, featuring a hooded man, in the top left, pointing over, to a glowing cross, in the top right corner, I'll say this, one of the reasons, why J. Frank Norris, actually never, formally, joined the KKK, he is on record, as saying, that he liked, everything they stood for, except for their stance, on the Jews, J. Frank Norris, believed that the Jews, were God's people, and that was where, he separated, or parted ways, with the KKK, the local clan, in Fort Worth, number 101, built a large hall, for their meetings, on North Main Street, there in Fort Worth, and at some point, their original building, in 1924, was bombed, or came down, the clan hall, was destroyed in 1924, just days before, their, a minstrel show, was to take place there, now check this out, and minstrel shows, let me say this, people, in the 20s, minstrel shows, were not Christian, let me just put it that way, okay, J. Frank Norris, offered the auditorium, of First Baptist Church, to the KKK, so their show, could go on, he ran, he didn't even, he didn't even make money, off of it, he just gave it to them, here you guys, can use the auditorium, so you can have your, minstrel show, for the KKK, now let me ask you, a question, and we'll wrap up today, and we'll wrap up part one, we'll do part two, and I'm going to ask, this question again, when we finish Norris, does this sound, like a mighty man, of God, hmm, I don't know, I do know, but I don't know, what you're thinking, but, J. Frank Norris, many of the, the leaders in the IFB, have hailed him, as the father, of the IFB movement, and, those, even some friends, within the IFB movement, that I still have, take issue, with doing things like, this podcast, or the Preacher Voice podcast, or the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast, or, such things like, IFB preacher clips, and, they don't like, the fact, they have, frustrations, with speaking out, against these things, because of, the good that's done, hey, I'm going to the history, we can, hey, and we can examine, the numbers game, I mean, why is J. Frank Norris, looked at as a mighty man of God, he's looked at as a mighty man of God, because he had a large church, two large churches, he had massive churches, where people said, many got saved, we can examine that, we can look at that, let me ask you this question, does a large ministry, in itself, equal, that that's a movement of God, that that's a work of God, that that is something good, I challenge you, to go to the Bible, and see if that's the case, because it's not, but we'll dig more, into J. Frank Norris, and I will let you, I'll go ahead, and give you, the preview, to the end, it gets worse, okay, it gets worse, some of you are disgusted, with the racism, of J. Frank Norris, and you say, how could it get worse than that, it gets worse, because not only was this guy, and you see what I'm saying, he's sort of the combination, of Jack Hiles, and Peter Ruckman, maybe you've seen, the Jack Hiles part, because he had the large, massive ministry, and all of these things, but, what you're going to see, in J. Frank Norris, is the Peter Ruckman-esque, Donald Trump-esque, that if you, do anything, to disagree with him, he comes after you, and does not let up, until he thinks, that he has completely, destroyed you, of course, in essence, it really does nothing, but make, the person, that's doing so, look, like a complete, jerk, but, that's the type of person, Norris was, but we'll take, we'll do that, we'll jump into, history of the IFB, J. Frank Norris, part two, coming next week, I hope you enjoyed, this episode, as we dove, into the history, of this, and looked at J. Frank Norris, thanks for listening today, if you appreciated the podcast, please give it a rating, or a review, and share it on social media, you can find, For Freedom Ministries, on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and until next time, to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thank you. Thank you.

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