198. Bryce Englin and the Unaccredited Bible Mills

Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. We're glad you're here with us. We've had our Thanksgiving. We've had our turkey. We've had our leftovers. Hopefully all the leftovers are gone. You've eaten them all. If you have not eaten all the leftovers now, throw them out because they are no longer any good. Unless you froze them. If you froze them, you're good. Well, I guess if you froze them. Yeah. So, you know, pretty much I had a pretty successful Thanksgiving. I pretty much got everything that I wanted. There was a little bit of family drama, but it wouldn't be Thanksgiving without drama. Absolutely. James, that was your holiday. Man, it was great. We had bread. I had something that I've never had before. It blew my mind. Two things that I've never had before, and it blew my mind. First one, we're sitting there Saturday before Thanksgiving, and my wife comes out. We're outside watching the game, hanging out with the brother-in-law, and we're just chilling. And she says, I need you to try this. She never brings me food to try, just randomly. So I'm like, did it fall on the ground? Did the dog lick it? What's going on? Why are you bringing this to me? I just need you to try it. And I said, okay. So I took a bite of it. Oh, it was like it melted in my mouth. It was some meat, some smoked meat. And she said, did you like it? I said, I loved it. I don't care what kind of meat it is. It was great. She goes, it was a deer brisket. My brother-in-law smoked a deer brisket. Oh my goodness. It was fantastic. That was great. And then I made my pumpkin or my pecan cobbler. My kids loved it. My son ate like three extra plates the next three days of the leftovers that we had. And then when I finally was done, he was like in tears in the corner of the house mourning with sackcloth and ashes because he was out of the pecan cobbler. And I was making tacos the day we left. We were out of it. And he goes, dad, are you making more pecan cobbler? I'm like, no, I'm making hamburger meat. What are you talking about? He was, he was in love with it. So it was great. Deviled eggs all the way up to my eyeballs. It was great. Great weekend. Great Thanksgiving. My Dolphins won this past week. It was great. That's always a good thing. We're on a little win streak there. And yeah, so we had a great time with family. Of course, there's drama always. And so we got to experience that as well. Yeah. Florida State didn't do too good this year. So, you know, JC's a little upset about that. Yeah. Huh? I saw the post about your good luck charm. Wasn't such a good luck charm. It wasn't such a good luck charm after all. Yeah. And so, but we'll listen, Thanksgiving, we're glad it came. We're glad it went. Now it's Christmas time. Let's go. Christmas time is here. So let's see what we've got going on. We've got Israel coming up in January. So doors just about closed. We could probably get another week or two. If you really want to go, let us hit us up. Man, I just can't wait. I'm almost got all my ducks in a row ready to go to Israel. And I'm looking forward to it going with you. What else we got going on? Brett, we have our convention coming up in June. First week of June down in Orlando. That's going to be a wonderful time down there. And we can't wait to get the house. We'll be renting it here soon. I am pumped about Israel, man. I was looking it up just a minute ago before we got on here. 59 days away from this time of the releasing of the recording. And we'll be leaving on a jet plane to go to Israel. I'm having lunch. I had lunch yesterday. We're recording this on Tuesday. So I had lunch yesterday when this came out on Wednesday with a guy named Rick Ivey, who we went to. He was at an RFP meetup a couple of last year down in Katusa. And he's going to Israel with us. And so we're meeting tomorrow where we met to have lunch. And so it was a great time. We're meeting to have lunch at the time of the recording. We just met to have lunch when it came out. I did not know Rick was going until we got on the Zoom call. I know. While we were on the Zoom call, I'm texting him. I'm like, dude, you're going to Israel with us. This is awesome. And so, yeah, it was a cool time. It was pretty cool. I'm going to have seen Rick there. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. Looking forward to us being down there together. So, like I said, we've got three, four, five more spots left. Not many. And so sign up if you want to go. It's going to be a great time. Being able to talk with everybody before we go. Starting to plan on what we're going to be teaching and where we're teaching at. And the devotions are going to be there. It's going to be a wonderful time. You're not going to want to miss it as we get down there. But July, we're going down to Nicaragua, Brett. We've been asked to come down and do a pastor's conference, a pastor's sermon, teaching time down there. And it's going to be a wonderful time down there the last week of July. And it's going to be great. Absolutely. And listen, one other thing. Christmas time is coming up. So, listen, if you want some stocking stuffers, you go to 1689.com forward slash four freedom cigars and get some stocking stuffers. We've got some things on there. We've sold out of a few things, but we've still got some things on there that you can give your loved one for Christmas time. It'd be the perfect gift. Yeah, we had a 50% off sale during Black Friday. If you didn't take advantage of that, I'm sorry. It's our biggest sale of the year. You got boxes of cigars for $100. You could have got our experience package with the cigars and the coffee and the soap for like $30, $40. It was the cheapest that it will ever be. We never do more than that off. And so that happens maybe once or twice a year. And so we'll be running maybe one more sale before the end of the year on there. And so, but like Brett said, we're already starting to sell out because of that big percentage off. And so if you're looking for some gifts from that, a way to benefit us, please go by and check that out. Also, the book that we've put out for Brokenness to Freedom, a great resource. Maybe you've got a family member that's stuck in the IFB and you need to give them a resource that's going to help them get out of that. Buy the book from Brokenness to Freedom on Amazon. $10 will be at your door in just a couple of days. And you can do that. I do still have just a couple of free books left. If you want to reach out to me, we can send those to you as well. And Brett, anything else before we jump into today's episode? I think that covers everything. We've got a big one for you today. Bryce England is with us. And buckle up. Get your seatbelts on. It's a long one. It's a fun ride. You're not going to want to miss it. And so let's jump into today's episode. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified. Released. Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. I ain't saved by dress codes, not by what I eat. I'm covered in the righteousness washed from head to feet. No tally of tradition, no man-made code. Blood bought my freedom, now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise. But my praise still ascends past the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing, that's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path. He sat with sinners, I'm sitting with saints. Sipping grace from the bottle, no room for fakes. I light one for liberty, toast to the king. Every ash a sermon, death has lost its sting. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified. Released. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Cigars and victory justified. Released. Let grace begin. For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now I'm puffing peace. Now here are your hosts, James Seyfried and Brett Martin. We're excited to have with us today Bryce England. He's here from Ohio. He reached out to me several months ago and we've had some conversations. He did an interview for me at Liberty. He's getting his PhD there and we talked for a while and just talked about ministry and what that looks like. And so excited to have Bryce on. He's a long time listener and he's a long time part of the RFP fam. Listens to a lot of all their stuff and just excited about him and his ministry that he's been doing. He's in the military and he'll share some of that. But Bryce, welcome to the show. Why don't you share your early experience in the IFB, how that shaped your understanding of faith and then, you know, sort of walk into your military background. Why did you choose the military and how was that a turning point of your life and even your faith journey as you went through that? So how long y'all got? We got, we got, we got 80 minutes for my, my testimony and everything. There we go, babe. Yeah. No, no. So I, unfortunately I can't bring the, the Spurgeon like you, you and Brett do James, which is my, I think that's become kind of the symbol between me and me and James. And if, if I'm texting Brett, I'll be like, Hey, you got, you guys bringing the Spurgeon? Um, so I am from Northern Illinois originally. And, uh, I, I grew up in a very blue collar family. So my father, uh, worked for Brinks. Then he got into truck driving in the nineties. Um, and, uh, I saw the, so when I say saw the rust belt, you see the destruction of the rust belt. I saw it growing up in the eighties and nineties in Northern Illinois, very farmland. You know, jobs being taken away and stuff. So my father had built a house. We had neighbors, um, in, in Roscoe, Illinois is the town where I, where I was born and grew up in. And essentially what, what, what happens? Um, we got neighbors. Well, where did the neighbors go? They go to the IFB church or the neighbors do. My mom had been raised as a Christian. My father had been raised in an Episcopalian tradition and neighbors invite us. What do we do? My dad goes to that. We start going to the heritage Baptist church in Roscoe, Illinois. Boy, again, I will give, give names and places of the churches. I don't hold any grudges against these people. They're, they're all wonderful people. As I've known, I'll share the IFB does have great people in it. There are, there are people who unfortunately, I think get manipulated by the system. Um, so, um, I, I will, I, we start going, remember 1984. So buddy of mine who I go to church with dad was a car salesman. Um, you know, and we, we got involved heavily in the IFB church by my father, you know, and we, and we start going. And when I say heavily at one point, it would be Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. Um, my mom didn't, my mom pulled me out. The church heritage started a, you know, all the way through first through sixth grade. I would be educated in the IFB Christian school first off between our church. And then, um, down at North love where Paul Kingsbury was the pastor. I think everybody knows the name, Paul Kingsbury through the fact that he's hard, um, that he would eventually be kicked out of the kicked out of the church for harboring folks. His connection to Dave Hiles, him and Dave Hiles. Um, and a lot of folks don't realize this. He runs, uh, uh, whatever the, the ministry that Josh Duggar went to. Um, so the second time, you know, Josh Duggar goes to Bill Goddard. So if you watch, uh, if you watch the, uh, shiny happy people, or if you watch Eric's, uh, thing, um, uh, praying from the pulpit, Paul, Josh Duggar goes to Bill Goddard. But there's a second time he goes to under falls under King Kingsbury's thing. And there's actually, uh, one of my favorite bloggers, uh, Bruce Garencher, who is a former IFB pastor who runs a blog called the life and time of Bruce Garencher. Now, Bruce, I'm going to warn everybody. He's an atheist. Um, and I'm kind of side tangenting here. I'll come back in a second. And he emphasizes a lot of these things. Um, Bruce is one of those who will, uh, go after Bob Gray. He'll also go after Dave Hiles, but I love Bruce. I think he's a great guy, very down to earth, but he pastored IFB churches for 25 years. He decided to go humanistic, um, agnostic again. Um, he's healed. And I think his blog is healing, but I love, I love Bruce. He's a great guy. I communicate with him. I love talking to him. We'll talk over text. Just amazing, amazing down to earth guy. 1984 comes along. We know 84, right? Uh, yeah. Um, making a little subtle. Well, baby, love it. Yeah. I'm sorry. George or will love it. Yeah. Well, so what happens in November, 1984, bunch of guys come over. I get saved. I'm six years old. How do you think a six year old, do you think a six year old fully understands the Romans road? You know, you know, and, and we're in, we're in the highest things. What is it? It's about, it's about numbers. And I only did it because a buddy of mine went forward and got saved. And you want, I don't want to get baptized the same night he did. So did it, got baptized. But I will tell you all through my life. I did not feel that I would, I didn't feel like, you know, imagine that idea of the Baptist church creating that unobtainable goals. And imagine again, you know, you throw in my dad with mental, my dad, he would find out later in life he had mental health issues. We're sitting here and the goal was never achievable. And this is one of the things that I think I have a problem with to this day from a personal standpoint is people not clarifying goals, people not being open and honest. And, well, what do you want? Well, I don't know what I want. I don't know what right looks like. Well, you've got to clarify what right looks like to me. And this is one of the biggest problems I think we have in leadership. Again, I'll talk about that later. Fast forward to 1995. I'm a junior in high school. So March of 95. I was at an overnight and there was this overwhelming sense in it. It's like there was this weight inside me in my heart here. He got, I got like Bryce, you ain't getting away from me. So in front of a bunch of people, broke down. I said, okay, God, you got it. Did it in front of a bunch of teenagers. And my sister's in the room. I don't think she remembers this. I don't think people are going to remember it. I remember it. Broke down and that's when I got accepted. You know, when I formally accepted Christ tomorrow, March of 95. I know where I was at. I don't remember the exact date, but I remember it. The next day we're going to up to Iron Mountain, Michigan. It was another IFB church or IFB-like church. The pastor was another. I don't even remember the pastor's name. But, and it's interesting because I've been listening to DC Talk. Free at Laugh was my jam. I would roll around with that. David Meese was another one of my favorite ones. White Hart was another band of mine. I love, always loved Christian rock music, which everybody else seemed to not like in my church. But it would take me a few more months. I was a senior. Beginning in 96, I decided to go forward. And that's when I got baptized for the second time. But that would be my baptism in the church. And that is my salvation and baptism story. Well, fast forward. I joined the military. So I, in December of 95, I go on the delayed enlistment program. And I, in June of 96, I graduated high school. 12 days later, I'm on my way to Lackland Air Force Base. Yeah. Now, as soon as I go off to Lackland Air Force Base, that begins a 20-year journey. 14 years includes overseas travel. That's where it's going to start to get kind of fun. So, I remember I had gotten to my first base at Whiteman. And I had some people in the church who were very happy that I was going in the military. They thought it would do good for me. It would help me grow up. There was others. Yeah, we don't think Bryce is going to go into the church. And I didn't really have a lot of options. I thought about, oh, maybe I want to go to Bob Jones University and be a chef. Well, that sounds crazy. And I remember the guy who's my brother-in-law now, again, I'm backing up a little bit. I kind of bounce. He would, I saw him one day. And he had joined the Army. And he was back at school in his Blues visit or Army Greens visiting in the fall of 95. And I said, yeah, really, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I'm a senior at the time. I really don't know what I want to do, where I want to go. And he was, oh. So he goes and tells the recruiter. Recruiter comes to my house. I started looking at the Army. My dad's like, hey, Bryce, why don't you look at the Air Force? Call the Air Force recruiter up. And that's what got me on the road to the Air Force. Six months later. Yeah, go ahead. No, yeah. I just wanted to clarify just a couple things you said. So David Howes, his ministry was called Fallen in Grace. Yeah. Yeah. And then there was one thing you said that I think resonates, and we say it often, is this moving of the goalpost, where we're going to have a standard set up that we're expecting you to live in and be a part of. And then once you attain that, we're going to move the goalpost to somewhere else. Now you've done this, but now to be this next level of Christian, you're going to have to do this, this, and this. And I think that a lot of our listeners can resonate with that, because oftentimes that is how the IFB runs all of their ministries, is this manipulation to move the goalpost. Yeah. And I was going to even tell you guys this. I see it in people who are not well-grounded in leadership, not comfortable in leadership. So you see this correlating to a lot of places. I think the moving of goalpost is a symbol of leadership culture today. Covey has emphasized it. And Brett, I know James is familiar with it. I don't know if you're familiar with Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I don't know. It's a great leadership book. Now, most IFBers will tell you, oh, you can't listen to that, because Covey, the guys who run Franklin Covey, they're Mormons. They're Mormons. We can only accept Mormons if they're running for political office, because that's when we want them in. Again, kind of joking and being this. But we've changed it to be based off of status from a perspective of being busy. Hey, the busier you are. And I think that's one of the ideas that correlates to the moving of goalposts. As Bruce emphasizes it, he has this blog. You know, he views it as the four Ws. Win them, wet them, work them, waste them. Of the IFB. So you win them to Christ. And Brian, even, and I chuckle because Brian Edwards. Listen, I love Brian. I love JC. But if there's two guys who I probably would appreciate from the RFP, and I think that's more because they're academics and philosophers like me, it's Brian and Nathan. And Brian was talking about on an episode, a couple of guys running around with the drugs open, and they got breezy pops. And in the heat of the day where they'll allow the kids to come in, they say this prayer. Again, I'm laughing because this is the grounds that we walk to. So you wash them. Hey, get baptized. And then what do you do for the adult? Bring them into the church. Work, work, work, work. Bring the goalposts. And then when you are so burned out, you leave the church. What do you do? It leads to abuse. It leads to the personal abuse, the punching. You didn't do enough. Or much, even like mental health. You're not praying hard enough. And this is a trend that I am noticing. This is a trend I'm really noticing on Preacher Boys. I've noticed this on even on a lot of the podcasts I've been listening to is people, oh, you're not praying hard enough. You're not doing enough. So, James, I think you're emphasizing that very well, and it's very well said about moving the goalposts. So let me ask you, what kind of lessons did the military give you that helped you see the issues in the IFB? Like what were some of the things that you noticed once you got in the military that correlated? I love how you guys work well together in this podcast because this actually helps me segue back to where I was going. So, Brad, I don't know what you guys do, if there's good talk going on and stuff. You guys know how to keep it moving. And that's a great question. So, you know, I get in the military, get to my first base. One of the things I've learned about IFBs in some countries, and you see it overseas, you got some countries or some places where there's always a Christian church. And you'll have an IFB church outside the gate of a military installation. We had one at Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri. I go. It was what I knew. So I started, you know, they said, well, when you get to your first base, you got to find a church. Got to find a church. So I started looking for a church. I got to this church at the base, and it was like, oh, hey, decided to, like, so I started attending this IFB church. I can't even remember the name of it. But I think, I'm like, yeah, I want to become a member of the church. So I do it. And then I had a buddy of mine. And he goes to the church one night. I don't, you know, we go out on Sunday night. But a really good buddy of mine named Chad, awesome guy. I love Chad. I haven't talked to him in years. But just, he was raised in a Christian home, a little more looser. I would say if I was talking to a guy who did it, he would probably be comparatively, think of the guys like Skillet. And when I say Skillet, I'm talking the style, the profile, the rocker edge, the vibe and stuff. So he goes with me to church. He comes out. He's like, Bryce, this ain't where you need to be. He's like, these guys are just, all these guys are doing is just brainwashing you. And now, mind you, Chad had been to Saudi. And he had just gotten back. And my buddy Dale, who was my roommate next door. So they both had rooms next to each other. And our rooms and bathrooms would connect. So what did I do? I was like, I need to go to church. So I started going to the non-denominational base chapel. I was like, I'm done. So I started going every Sunday. That's when I started to see the problems come up. But that's where I started to see the IFP for what it is. I decided to go back and visit the church. And I said, hey, brother, brother so-and-so. I said, you know, I go on a Wednesday night. And they're all in their suits and ties. I'm going in jeans. I'm like, I'm a jeans guy. Hey, yeah, I decided to start going to the base chapel. I said, you know, to me, what's wrong? I mean, I look at it like this. What's the problem? We all get to heaven the same way, right? Right. You know, how you believe is how you believe. Oh, no, that don't work, Bryce. You know, I was told that that doesn't work. And this is by somebody who doesn't obviously have an accredited education. Or, you know, their view is sitting under the IFP church. And he's like, there's a problem with this thing called feel easy, feel easy or easy feeling religion, as they call it. Again, this is what you see when people talk about, you know, church acting like a rock man and stuff. This is that feel easy, free religion. So I was like, I'm done with this. So keep fast forwarding. I remember I was stationed in Iceland. They had a Baptist church outside the front gate. One of the guys who attended there, he was an authoritarian in my unit. You could tell he was very authoritarian in how he handled things. He didn't know anything about leadership. He, you know, the Air Force had been moving towards mentorship. And this is a guy who had been serving since the late 70s. So maybe somebody who comes in after Vietnam on his way out. And he treats me and I'm a buddy of mine. He's like, yeah, well, I don't agree with the word mentorship. I don't agree with this. I don't, you know, discipleship. It's like discipleship means you sit down and you talk to people and you treat people with respect. You guide them. He didn't do that. So I was like, I'm done. Or I was like, yeah, another square peg. I remember when I got stationed in Cairo. So when I talk about 14 years of overseas travel, I did 12 years straight. So I get my orders to Turkey, go from Turkey to Iceland. First tour in Japan, Masao Air Base. Left Japan, went to the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, Egypt. Spent three years there. That's where I found myself getting into the liturgical movement. So Lutheran, Methodism. So it is kind of a combination of things. You do, when you go to the liturgical service, you go to the communion. Communion is going to be with the wine and the bread. I remember I started attending. I was like, I really like this. And I remember Reverend Paul Gordon Chandler, a great, great guy. I loved. He's, as a matter of fact, the guy who had done my confirmation. Now, mind you, I've been saved 10 years at this point. So I don't have any questions about my salvation, baptism, or my ability. My goal now is building my knowledge, that discipleship of Christianity. The IFB is not giving it to me. And I've always been, and I've got to tell you guys, I'm an academic. I function well, better in the educational environment. We all have our gifts and skills. James, I know you're an amazing counselor. Brett, you're a pastor, and you're kind of building yourself through your Masters of Divinity program. But, and what I will even share with you is we sometimes do not even find, you know, pastors, until you've completed, you may not find your full path to where you're going until after you complete your MDiv. You just know that that's the path you want to go down. But, again, that's not a knot. We just, it takes us time until we get into, you know, we've gotten the education, we've gotten in the classroom, we've gotten around others who are feeding. And helping us with the feed and carry. And what I was going to say is, being a pastor is, it's about as hard as being in the military, I would say, sometimes. I will tell you this. Matter of fact, I would say being a PK, a pastor's kid, a preacher's kid, is similar, especially in, think about this. If you're a PK in the mission field, it's almost kind of like being a military brat. And I had to think about it because you're going through the same level of hardships. And I'll get into that here in a couple of minutes. But my, because I want to step back. But I'm sitting here and I started, and I actually did confirmation. And that opened my eyes to the history of the church. But one of the things I loved about Paul Gordon Chandler, I remember at the end of one of our first messages, the pastoring was so much better. He says, things happen, trials happen. You don't know why they're going to happen. But it started connecting me. It gave me something that I felt I needed. But I remember at the end, he's playing, he plays the Sting song, If I Ever Lose My Faith. At one of the things I was like, Sting could be, I was like, wow, Sting. You know, most folks don't realize Bono's a Christian. Bono has faith. I think Sting has faith. Bob Dylan, most folks don't even realize Bob Dylan was a Christian. You know, he was saved in the Vineyard Movement. He moved away from the Born Again, the Born Again Craziness Movement, because I don't think that was what he wanted. But you come out of the Jesus Movement of the 60s and 70s, you know, Bill Kidd talks about the 70s was rocking. That was the outgrowth of the Jesus Movement, which was very interesting from a historical standpoint. And again, I'm not saying it negatively. I'm not looking down on it. But it's amazing where you look at how things go from the 60s and 70s. If I have to turn, it's garage band style Christianity, or it's more of a DIY, do-it-yourself punk aesthetic kind of commercialization. Money starts being thrown in. Gloss starts being thrown out. And what do you get? Prosperity gospel. All the other stuff that comes from it culturally, historically. But, and I think that's where many of us, where we've seen it go astray. But when I see it like this, I'm like, wow, I kind of like this stripped-down, unplugged version or unplugged approach to Christianity, if I'm going to use a musical metaphor. So in 05, I completed confirmation, which was a, for me, it confirmed. It was discipleship. Six weeks, I start learning, and it was right after Pope John Paul II had passed away. So that was really an opportunity to talk about the Catholic Church, to talk about the schism. I mean, we don't talk about church history a lot today. We don't talk about, you know, IFBs. Everybody hears the word confirmation. It's confirming. We're confirming history. So, again, it's, has it been hijacked by some elements? Yes. And I was thinking about this before I was coming down today. It's been hijacked by some element. It's been taken out of context. I won't deny that. There are some people who, yeah, go ahead, James. I would also say, I think that a lot of ideas in, even IFB, have been hijacked from other denominations, and we've just rebranded it into our own thing. And that is, you know, now that we've stepped out of the IFB, and I have, you know, I'll go to a convention, or I'll go somewhere, and I'll, I remember the first time we were at, like, a breakout session, and we were going around, and we were talking about where we all come from. And I'm like, do I mention, like, the IFB or not? And I didn't know, like, you know, because we were told when we were growing up, the IFB was the largest denomination out there. We were the only ones doing it right. And I get there, and it's like, we're like little fish in a big pond. And I would mention, yeah, I grew up in an independent Baptist church, and they're like, oh, you're one of those guys. Yeah, I can relate. But, like, the board of directors that I'm on for the North Carolina Convention, we've got seven or eight that are all former IFB guys that are now Southern Baptist, and we get together, we hang out, we talk. Like, we can relate to where we came from, and then we begin to see where these ideologies have been taken from what some other group is doing, and they've just modified the name or the whatever it is to, you know, glorify it into their context. They're just, they're stealing an idea. What's wrong with that? I mean, but they claim it as their own, not that we took this from, you know, this movement or that movement or whatever. So, I was going to say, let me finish up, because I'm getting close to the end of the personal testimony background, and then I will actually talk about that as well, too. And just so you guys know, the lessons or perspectives, that's kind of wrapped, I think, into the – I think some of that should be getting captured in what I'm sharing with you now. Because the military brings you into contact with all different folks. When I lived on the ground in Cairo, I got to meet Muslims. You know, it helped open my eyes that all Muslims are not bad people. They're just – they realistically have different branches. Islam is very much like Christianity in that there's different branches, offshoots, and everything. Judaism is the same way. The Abrahamic religions, as we'll call them, are all the same way. There are multiple different conservative elements. There are factions of Christianity that are no different than radical fundamentalist Islam. And, matter of fact, I'll even highlight this. If you look at what would become Qutb, Qutb is how – him and Ayman al-Zarwahi, who would form – so Ayman al-Zarwahi forms EIJ, Egyptian Islamic Jihad. He was influenced by Sayyid Qutb. Both those men had come to the U.S. early on. They didn't like it. They come back. They formulate what will become the radical form of Islam or radical ideas of Jihad. But Jihad, much like any of the forms, is taken out of context. It's very interesting because you will have charismatic leaders. I have not uncovered it with Judaism to the level that I probably should. But when you get – I've seen – I've met Coptic Christians. Coptic Christians in Egypt, landmarkists would call them – they're heathens. They're very Eastern Orthodox, but they're still Christians. The view of Christianity is completely different. I left Cairo, went back to Japan, got stationed in Wyoming, decided to go to Sub-Saharan Africa, went to work at the U.S. Embassy in Djibouti. That's another perspective that opens my door. Now, mind you, at this time, I married my wife, who was raised Methodist. We decided to – I decided to convert from being Lutheran liturgical. And I had gone through the Lutheran, Missouri Synod as well, too. A little too conservative for me. But I met some really great chaplains who helped me. But I've been a practicing Methodist for the last 15 years. I've been practicing Methodist in terms of the UMC. I've seen the UMC-GMC split, the United Methodist Church, Global Methodist Church split. But I can – it's very interesting. Again, some of these things are so philosophically driven. It's not possible that – you have to have an hour just to unpack it because of how complex it is. And I'm going to, again, talk about the Bible mills today. But the military really shaped who I was. It gave me values, put me around people. But when we even start talking about social issues within the church, abortion in a place like Africa for Christians is – you know, we put abortion up here, abortion, gay marriage here. In Africa, they're more worried about female genital mutilation. So, I mean, you know, so this is another thing. And this is kind of that lack of education in a Bible mill. Do they ever talk about worldwide global issues? Do they talk about female genital mutilation? You know, and this is one of the things you do see with some of the IFB missionaries who go out and they're like, well, what I was taught and what I was fed in an unaccredited Bible mill. And I'm going to tell you, Hiles Anderson College is an unaccredited Bible mill. Anybody who is opening up a school that doesn't want to go get accreditation, they're opening it up in their basement, it is an unaccredited Bible mill. I'm sorry. Jack Hiles, Tony Hudson, and I'm being – I'm kind of pushing pretty blunt on this one. Tom Malone, Bob Gray, all these guys who run around doing – claiming to be doctors who have never done a capstone or a dissertation in their life are not doctors. They run around – oh, I'm sorry. But Larry Brown, you are not a doctor. John Hamblin, Christ was – Jesus was not a bartender. You are not a doctor. You are nothing more than a charlatan heathen who runs around as an evangelist who thinks you're going to get – you're nothing more than a prosperity, poverty pimp. I'll call you what you are. So as we think through that – Sorry, I get a little heated with it. I think it's good. I think it's good to address some of the things because I can relate to – in Bible college, they're not teaching both sides often. And that's part of the issue that you can have from it. And as we think through, you mentioned the unaccredited Bible meals. Let's sort of talk through that. Yeah. As you are at Liberty and preparing to do some things with what you're doing, why is formal accredited education important for pastors today? And me and you have had this conversation when it comes to the project that you did. And what are the dangers that can exist inside of an unaccredited Bible meal? What does that look like? And how do we sort of encourage guys that are going to ministry to think a little more critically on where they're getting their education and why that's important? All right. So, Brett, I'm going to have to ask you for – Brett, I want to ask you if you can help me out here because you probably will be able to speak to some of this a little bit better than I can as well, too. But this is more collaborative in terms of being somebody from an MDiv as well, too, because I think you'll see it in your curriculum as an MDiv. So, first of all, let me share with you guys. I've got my undergrad in business admin and logistics, and I have an MBA. My first foray into Liberty was actually in an executive certificate in public policy through the Helms School of Government. I decided that I wanted to – so, my pursuing of a PhD at that point was, hey, I want to go organization management with the cognitive and executive coaching because I love studying the relationships, the behaviors, the strands that bring things together. But public policy was great, and I love the biblical integration. What I started – what I have looked at – because I had thought I wanted to be a chaplain earlier on in life, and I realized I don't have the temperament to do it. And I also – it would come after I left the military and retired in 16, where I would formally enter academia, come – leave Alabama, come to Ohio, and where I've been since 2019. I spent four and a half years teaching. But when I start looking at a Master's of Divinity program, one of the things that sticks out to me is how much emphasis we – you know, an MDiv puts on pastoral care education. Right? I think I've looked at New Orleans. There's a significant – it's either pastoral care, but there's also a ton of different other things, like apologetics. So it's almost kind of like you're going through a 90-hour intensive program, 75- or 90-hour intensive program, but you are given a – you know, 20 – in some – it differs. But I've seen you can get eight – seven or eight different classes along with real-world field experience. Like, you'll be in the field working under another chaplain in the area of trauma or, you know, in the area of trauma certification or apologetics, Bible, reading, you know, textual criticism. But I think – but pastoral care is the one that really sticks out to me, especially the mental health aspect of it with the rise in it. I am not – and this is where I feel like a Bible mill, an unaccredited Bible mill goes wrong. Imagine putting someone like Jack Hiles or Bob Gray or J. Frank Norris in a trauma room. They're going to be more concerned about winning bodies for Christ than actually providing pastoral care. Am I right on that, Brett? No, you're right. Absolutely. A hundred percent. One of the biggest things that was my problem was I was told it didn't make a difference. Like, accreditation didn't matter. Like, no one's going to care. No one's going to look at it. They sell you that. And then you get out in the real world, and it's a complete lie. And then even when I went through the program, it didn't prepare me for the real world. Like, I came out actually on the other side worse from going to, you know, Hiles Anderson and a Hiles Anderson-like college than I did going in because what they taught me actually hurt me. And I was unprepared going into the ministry. And like you're saying about pastoral care, I had no idea how to do that. You know, you get up, they get up there, they teach the Hiles Church manual for, you know, a semester and some other things. They teach you how to get up there and bark about your personal preferences. They don't teach you how to exudite the scriptures. You don't properly know how to counsel church members. You don't know any original languages because the King James is better than the Greek and things like that. So you're totally, totally unprepared. All you have is a piece of paper. And I'm glad the Lord led me down the academic path that I'm going now. But, yeah, it's a real problem. And, you know, I was thinking about going to Pensacola. At least that would have been accredited. But I had to go to Hiles Anderson. That's the Mecca. Hiles Anderson College. That's the ISU Mecca. Yeah. And, James, and let me also caveat here. There's no one entry point that's the correct way. Everybody's journey is going to be a little different. James, for instance, I look at your journey going to, you went to a TRAC accredited school, which does have some standards. Now, when I was there, they're not TRAC accredited. And they're just now TRAC accredited. And, you know, that's the lowest form of accreditation. That's the regional form. And a lot of times that doesn't even transfer from state to state at times. And so my degree, sitting right here behind me, it's an accredited piece of paper. They promised it would grandfather in. It did not grandfather in. Oh, man. So there was a lot of that misconceptions that came from it. But, you know, the grandfathering in would be, hey, come back and take these three classes under the new program, pay this amount of money, and pay the graduation fee and come walk. And then you would have an accredited degree that's TRAC accredited that's still, you know, certain places aren't going to accept that degree because it's regional. So it needs to be that next step. At least they're looking at accreditation. But it's still, it's regional, and it's based on the region that you're in. And so there are some regions that now don't accept the region of the Hot Springs area. And so you're still having that difficulty when you come through that. Oh, I follow what you're saying. And all I was going to add on to that, though, was the fact that when we talked about the interview for my industrial psychology class that I'm working on right now, my point being that when you went out and got the side counseling thing, though, I think that adds on to the added the value of it. So if somebody goes and gets a bachelor's, but, you know, they get a bachelor's, but they don't go the MDiv route, but they've decided to go get specialized counseling or specialized pastoral care, and they're going to an accredited thing, perfectly fine. So, for instance, and I'll give you a reason why I think, you know, Phil Kidd, to me, he's a doctor. And here's what clues me in on Phil Kidd. And, again, Phil Kidd, he's a very amplified person. He knows how to turn it on and turn it down. So I believe if Phil Kidd was to go into a trauma room, he would know how to turn it off, turn it down because of his psychology background, and provide pastoral care. But when he's in church and he's who he is, yeah, he hoops and hollers from the pulpit. That's not to say, but when I listen to him, and a lot of this just comes from me listening, I'm like, this is a guy who knows his audience. He knows how to turn it on and turn it off. But I firmly believe that as a pastor, he is who he is. He dresses who he is, and that's perfect. You know, he's like, let me be who I want to be. If I want to be a King James Version only, that's perfect. But the key I want to highlight there is Phil Kidd knows how to turn it on and turn it off, and he doesn't do things from a number. I've actually heard him sit there with his son, Paul, and he has railed against the IFB church and called a compromiser because he's like, I'm going to go out and do my own thing. I love, and I love that about Phil Kidd. Matter of fact, if I had a chance, I would love to know what Phil, both Phil and his wife, who's also a doctor, I think she's got a doctorate in sociology. I would love to know what their research was in. For me, it would be great to hear what he's done. But I firmly believe if you listen to him, this is a guy who's done the work, done the dissertation work, and he doesn't have an honorary doctorate. He's got an actual PhD or doctorate. One of the other things I real quick wanted to emphasize also about New Orleans and Liberty is program accreditation. So you've got Association of Theological School, ATS Accreditation. New Orleans is an ATS accredited school. So this is another thing. You've got regional accreditation, then you've got legitimate program accreditation. So what does ATS mean? This is an accrediting agency that program accredits not only Christian, Judaism. They send religious professors out to assess the program to see the rigorous requirements. So, Brett, I want to tell you, when I saw that for New Orleans, that is an extra standard for your school as well, too. Liberty's had ATS accreditation since 2020. It is one of the things that I would love to see Luther Rice and Mark Milioni over at Mission actually strive to get. Because I think those schools, in my opinion, I think Luther Rice, especially as they are starting to merge. And as you guys have seen from the academic standpoint, it's not that I can, you know, standing up a college program is not as simple as plopping a bunch of things down. There is a significant amount behind the scenes that goes in. And when I use the term pedagogy, education pedagogy, determining learning environments, the business, Luther Rice and Dr. Merritt, what they're having to go through to set up that business program. And imagine this, you know, you're talking 120, 124, 128 credit hours. It is, and if you don't have lower level courses that you have to have, that for undergrad, it is a huge amount in decline. And the standards of evaluation for, so this is, there are instances where school, why you pay for it. But regional accreditation is great, but also program accreditation adds a secondary standard to it. And that's one of the things I want to highlight to you, Brett, and I've been thinking about is you have, you know, that's one of the things that makes your program so well and solid of a program. In my opinion. I have, I'll tell you what, I've really, really enjoyed my time at New Orleans so far. And, you know, I've learned so much. I really, you know, I think the program I'm on, you were close. It's like 87 credit hours from a master's. And I am taking the pastoral care, actually. That is the one that I'm taking. And, but I want to circle back to something that, man, I can tell you are, you're very passionate about it. And that was the, the, the unaccredited, the unaccredited Bible meals in the IFB. I want to know how you think those affect the health and reputation of the IFB on the inside and the outside looking in. Okay. No, great question. Great question. I'm going to tell you right now. Look at all the serial abusers we've had come out. Eric, I think Eric stumbled onto something. The Dallas Fort Worth telegram, the 412 cases. Look at all the patterns of abuse. Most, most folks do. I'm going to even go down a road. Some folks don't look at all the systematic racism. You know, we can call it systematic institutional racism, especially in the South. You know, J. Frank Norris and Jack Howes were avowed racist. Most people don't want to talk about that. But, you know, when I think it was the GFBC and I actually, Eric had suggested this book, One in Hope and Faith, talking about Baptist fundamentalism from 1870s to 1950. I actually finished that book recently. Hiles, the reason Hiles ends up taking the Southern, and it's amazing how the, how the Hilesism and, you know, Norris. Norris was a very vengeful, hateful man. But when they split, so when they split off in what would be the G, I think it's the GARBC, which is where they, that's where you would get Baptist Bible College, where Mark Milioni is at today. The history behind where he went is amazing. But the Hiles wing that breaks off from that, which is influenced by the South, action, man of God. So, you know, if you look at the difference between Northern Baptist or Northern Independent Baptist and Southern Independent Baptist, Southern Independent Baptist are based off of man of God. They're based off of this, you know, they're based off of the number, soul winning, preaching, hard preaching, hellfire and brimstone, where the North tends to be a little more academic. That Southern strand, which is what has caught on, and what I believe is, especially Hiles Anderson, putting forward a lot of our, putting forward a lot of these unaccredited Bible mills or influencing them, are why we have significant sexual abuse. Why has Dave Hiles, I mean, let's, let's be, let's call it what it is. Dave Hiles, there, they, I don't know why he still, he never got indicted for, for murdering his kid. You know, oh, there's not enough evidence there. No, I don't think, you know, you can call me a conspiracy theorist. It's not about evidence. It's about the fact that your daddy probably paid somebody off because you have so much money or your daddy made, made some promise to somebody. I need to keep you out of jail. I mean, look at, look at the, you know, Eric puts it in, in Let Us Pray, where they got the video of Jack Skopp. It had to be for, for Hiles 70, 70th birthday. They walk in with a wheelbarrow cash for your 70th birthday. These students have raised $70,000. How much money do you think was getting washed through Hiles Anderson College and, and, and was probably going into pockets of politics? Pockets of certain people to keep Dave Hiles out of jail. It is, is it theoretical? Yes. I'll, I'll say it's theoretical. I don't have proof. Um, and I, and I want to be very careful because I don't want to be sued for, you know, these guys. it's an amazing level of hypocrisy. A second one, hypocrisy from the pulpit. Anytime I see a policy, and this is where I think public policy really has helped me to understand it. And most folks would say, Jerry, you know, Jerry Powell, I don't agree with him, but he's turned, you know, now that his son is no longer the chancellor, and they actually have Dondi Koston there, who's a retired Air Force major, chief of chaplains for the Air Force at one time, very good president. I think it was good that they went out and got retired General Koston as their, as the chancellor, and the provost, his other son, who has been more focused in on ministry. Liberty in 50 years has turned into something amazing. Matter of fact, I would say liberty, in terms of where I think it's going, I would probably say it is very much like Grand Canyon. I think it's Grand Canyon, or which is out west, the Bible College out west, or the, Liberty has become very multi-denominational, but with more of a conservative Christian. Go ahead. Let me say one quick thing that you make me think of. No other university was bashed at house answering harder than Liberty University. Yeah, it was bashed beyond recognition. It was like that. I mean, I promise you every other week in chapel, they were preaching against Liberty University. I think that's hilarious. And I'm doing my golf clap. I love it. Because and it doesn't bother me. If the trolls come, it really doesn't bother me if the trolls come out. Because that's all they do is they sit behind a keyboard and talk. Okay, cool. Great. You guys want to sit behind a keyboard and talk. We're exposing the truth out here. We're three guys conversating across a digital space about it. But I love it. I golf clap on that one. You know, because, okay. Hey, that means they're doing something right. Yeah. Well, and I'll give you guys this. So when I looked at my, look at the professors I'm learning under at Liberty. So for instance, my first class, when I go to public policy, my teacher is an adjunct, but he teaches during the day at Texas A&M University. The current speaker of the house, Mike Johnson, was a law teacher at Liberty. So he's in serving in Congress, but he's an adjunct professor. Dave Brott, who served in Virginia's economists, more of an academic one, but he's one of the chairs, I believe, at Liberty. The chair of the Helms School of Government, one of the things, Dr. Becky Munson, she was educated at James Madison in the Helms School of Government. So there are some very good professors there with good education standards. They're not pulling in people who just got Liberty degrees. There's not somebody who goes to Heil to Anderson who gets an honorary doctorate and was educated in using the Heil's manual. But this is what, again, I'm kind of talking to it. Abuse, these guys, this cult of personality has led to abuse. The lack of accreditation and oversight has led to abuse. This is why, again, I will sit here and I will sit here and I will look. And again, I hate, you know, it's the character of the individual. So for instance, I don't know if you guys are familiar with this, but if you look at, I know everybody says Rager's a shock truck. I'm not going to lie, he is. But he's also entering into very dangerous territory with what he's doing on the internet. Now, because we're highlighting him, he'll take those as points and potentially want to use them. Great. But what do I, and here's where I'm going with the hypocrisy. I'm even talking to the hypocrisy of this. One, the guy was actually, he's divorced, which I believe he's divorced. He's also, and arrested for spousal abuse. Doesn't that run contrary to First Timothy if we're going to talk to pastoral qualifications? Second, he's harping around now running videos on Christian nationalism. I thought Jefferson told us that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were big, emphasizing the wall of separation between church and state. When I, and it's really becoming hard for me to, you know, the hypocrisy. Anytime you see an elected official of a certain, you know, they're coming to take our guns, they're coming to take our guns, or, or pastor, you know, in the late 80s and 90s, I loved it. The culture where you got to vote for this party, but the second somebody gets, oh, well, you're coming to take our 501c3 status, or, well, so, so the, you know, the pastor will, it's hypocritical because they'll, they'll preach about certain, you know, they'll preach about one thing, then they'll bash the government about another, but then when the cops or the federal government want to come in and arrest them for somebody, they'll be the first to tell you that, uh, you can't, this is private property, you can't get it. So it's kind of my right, as a buddy of mine would say. Now, again, I'm not even pushing, I don't, I've never listened to either of you guys preach, so understand I'm not saying that. I'm talking about the importance of understanding that there is a clear line. Me and my pastor have talked about this at my church here in Ohio, and he tells me that he tries to, oh, he, he avoids it for the point that he wants to ensure that our 501c3 status within the Methodist community is not damaged because we do, because we actually do have a recovery ministry here. We have food banks. I mean, the, the idea, I love, I love the social justice aspect, and when I use that word, social justice, meaning you're helping those underprivileged in the community, not social justice of fighting for equality, but social justice of helping folks out, helping folks to get on their feet, helping folks who might be oppressed, especially if they've done work for, for them. Um, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I want to push back one thing and then me and Brett have enough time for maybe one more question each. Um, just running up on time sake. Um, you know, I've done some research on the history and I don't, I don't preach politics from the pulpit. I tell people, I said, if it's in the Bible, I will preach it. And there are times where the Bible talks about politics and we'll, we'll hit it when it talks about government and organizations. Uh, but I've done a lot of reading on the, the history and, you know, Madison and those guys, uh, the, the church and state separation was more for the state, not impeding on the church, not necessarily the church impeding on the state. Um, you know, I, one guy listened to Michael Knowles all the time. He says that culture is always downstream of religion. Uh, and so as religion devolves and we don't stand firm, the culture also devolves and gets worse and worse. And so the religious standard has to be high so that the culture can somewhat stay high as well, because it's always going to be downstream. Um, and so, uh, I have no problem with, uh, politics, uh, being religious because, uh, that is, I mean, if you read any of the family documents, uh, they are constantly referring to God, uh, and using their religion in the way they're writing things. So I think the separation of church and state was specifically for the state, not mandating church, uh, the way the, the English government was. Yeah. Got it real, real quick. Can I, can I just, no, I think your, I think your pushback was great, man. I think the pushback was amazing. And I, I really appreciate that. Um, I don't disagree with you either. Um, I think you bring up a very good point. I was going to say, I think we can do it. I like the idea of Alfonso Rochelle, who was a former atheist, read the Bible, came to Christ, wrote a book called weapons of American socialist states destruction, ASF. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's written back in 2012. Um, Rochelle though, emphasizes in some of his earlier videos that we were a Judeo Christian influence. So I think we can even emphasize, we can talk religion, but we could also talk about the moral, you know, the idea of morals as well too. And, and the real, and again, I'm kind of trying to keep, probably cause I keep my feet both in, I want to be open to talking to folks from both sides, Christian and secular. Now I know some folks would say, Hey, that's lukewarm, but I think you, you got to, you know, sometimes Christian testimony can be a better selling point as JC alluded to during his time in Utah. And he's talked to you. So again, kind of, you know, that that's my approach. Again, your, your approach, man, spot on. I'm not going to even take away from it. I think you emphasize it and I don't disagree with it. I just don't like the hypocrisy that I see with pastors who use dubious character claims. And yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. For sake of time, Brett, why don't you give us your last thought or question for Bryce and then we'll, uh, trap this thing up. I really think it's interesting how you came out of like this ISB background to this liturgical thing, uh, this liturgical style, which, you know, it was a big leap. I know it had to be, uh, I know that I had, when I was in the IFB, I had trouble with that. And now I'm starting to see, uh, that, you know, starting to open my, open my mind. I'm at the point now where, uh, just because it's different, doesn't mean that I can't stop, take a look, see, see, see, see for, see for what it is, try to open my mind to it. You know, I got no problem with that at all. I think that was really cool. Um, my question to you would be, what advice do you have for pastors who want to grow, who want to educate themselves, who want to serve well? I want you to speak to these pastors who are looking to, um, to just, you know, to, to, to, to go down that road. So a couple of things I recommend, one, you've got multiple different routes you can take. If you went to champion, you've gone to Luther Rice and you have an undergrad, then I recommend either go for your MDiv like you are, Brett, or go get counsel, go get a counseling certification. Um, stay as far away from internal past oral training programs. Um, real story. Someone very close to me was at a summer camp this past summer in Ohio and IFB summer camp that invited by a friend and the preaching was on hellfire and brimstone to the point that it was scaring this person. That person texts the parents in the evening. I'm overwhelmed. I'm scared. Now imagine somebody who is struggling with anxiety. Parents had to get up out of bed at 11 o'clock or midnight and go pick, pick her up. Um, person goes and sees there's every IFB from even areas where I, from areas I heard they're like, yeah, Rockford, Illinois. I was like, Oh great. Yeah. I'm surprised here. Good Baptist church wasn't there when the person was sharing with me and observing all the church bands coming in. My problem is the pastor of the church who invited that person has an undergrad, but was trained using an internal pastoral program. And we are throwing people into, you know, people are becoming pastors with little to no education. They, or there were degrees completely outside and they think they can become internally. This is the Bible mill aspect. It's somebody who thinks just because I, you know, I have complete, you know, somebody who thinks just because I completed an education at a Hiles Anderson, I can start a Bible thing internally. Look at the website. If the website for supposed Christian colleges doc work on the back of it, or Hiles Anderson. Now they, they mask themselves as a .edu when, and then they'll talk about you, you look at their website for accreditation, but anything with a .org. Hightail it and run a Bible college with a .org website. Stay away. So that's what, one of the things I would say is I tell pastor, there are tons, tons and tons of amazing, great universities out there with online. You can go to Liberty. You can go to Luther. I'll tell you, Luther Rice, New Orleans, where you're going for the Southern Baptist is great. If somebody wants, you know, there's, you've got mission, which is great for the Christian Biola Bible, Bible college or Biola University out in Los Angeles, Bible Institute of Los Angeles, Judson, Maranatha is regionally accredited up in Wisconsin. Bob Jones and Pensacola. Yes, they carry tracks accreditation, but they are accredited today. Fuller Seminary is very well. Grand Canyon is another Christian university. So I've just given a really great group of good universities work with solid MDIF programs that pastors can go to. Or again, they can go get the, I think it's the ICBC. Am I correct, James? Yeah. IBCD. IBCD. ACBC, Biblical Counseling Certification. Yeah. And I've looked at those biblical, when I say looked at them, I've looked at them online. They're very rigorous. They're going to put you through a standard. The other thing is, you have to have pastoral field training as part of your education. This means that if you're going to go into pastoral care, it means you need to be under the care of a pastor sitting there in a trauma room. If somebody tells me, oh, well, I never spent time in a thing. Well, how can I expect you to handle grieving family members if you have never spent time in a trauma thing? How do I know? I've never done statistical analysis or a stat track on this, but military members who have served in Afghanistan and Iraq. And oh, by the way, I'll tell you guys right now, I was in Kuwait the day 9-11 happened. And then 10 years later, I go to Afghanistan eight days after my daughter's born. I know guys who have served six, seven, eight times suffering from PTSD who have gone to Iraq. And if they want to go to a Christian counselor, what I'm worried about is somebody with an IFB pastor who claims to be a counselor who tells them, oh, pray hard enough. Well, how do you feel if, and again, I'm hypothesizing here. How are you guys going to feel if you've given that guy pastoral care as an IFB minister or claimed to be a pastoral care expert or under Paul Kingsbury's recovering, whatever the thing was, again, I'm bad with names sometimes. And that service member goes out and commits suicide. So this is the part that irritates me to this end, because you're playing with lies here. You're playing with people's lives. All because you want to scape up and scope out your numbers. For those guys looking to leave the IFB faith, it is true. You're going to have to start over again. It's the hateful truths. Yeah. And, you know, I think that, uh, as I was, um, you were talking about something as far as just the way the training is and, uh, how quickly someone can go into ministry that I had a conversation just a couple of years ago with some guys that were part of the Presbyterian, uh, church. And, uh, you know, they may have some theological differences than us on a couple of areas for the most part. Uh, they're very well balanced and solid. Uh, but one of the things about the Presbyterians is you have to go through many years of training, education, apprenticeship, almost of serving under someone, uh, before you can even be a pastor. It's not just, Oh, four year Bible college, boom, go start a church. Uh, which is why the IFB blew up so quickly as far as numbers is because they were just sending guys like crazy without training. And then you've got the abuse scandal and everything that comes to that where Presbyterian, I mean, they're 10 or 12 years in training before they even plan a church or pastor a church. So it, it takes a little bit longer for the size to be there, but man, once they get out there, they're solid, they're grounded, they're, they're, they're teaching biblical truth and their churches are healthy. Uh, which is the difference that you can see there of the two churches and the donations. And real, real quick, one thing I want to highlight the Methodists require that as well too. Yeah. I haven't done as much research on that. No, no, completely understand. I just want to let you know that's from talking to my local folks, Brad. I promise I'm, I'm shutting up now. Go ahead, Brad. You're fine. I didn't want to mention, cause you talked about, you know, infield training. I do want to highlight that new Orleans, the program that I'm in, you know, it, it, it does require that requires to go out there. Um, I've had to spend several hours. A lot of my credit hours are finding most of my schooling is online. I live about, you know, three hours away from the seminary, but I still have to, for these clients. I have to go find these, these pastors that, you know, they're doctors, they're trained and then go study under them and learn under them. And then I've talked to several people who went on past the master to the, to the doctorate, either got a PhD or a doctor of ministry. And they say that while the master is mostly the classroom work, the, the, the doctorate is even more infield experience. It's, it's, it's hands on. And that's where you're going to learn at. And that made me want to go to get the doctorate even more because a lot of them said they enjoyed getting the doctorate more than they enjoyed getting the masters. And so I think that infield experience, it's, it's needed. Um, it's where you learn at, you're going to learn in the field, you get the knowledge in the classroom, but out there, you know, in the field, uh, in the ministry, sitting in there talking to real people, that's where you're really going to learn. And, uh, new Orleans definitely is, is doing that. So I just wanted to give a plug for them. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And, and, and I'll plug new Orleans all day long, much like, um, I know again, here in a really, it depends on where you go. Um, I know the Methodist church, we're kind of all over the place. Um, there are some very left-leaning progressives. I live, I will admit is a very progressive seminary out in, um, out in Denver area. Um, I don't agree with them, but, and I had been accepted there, but very expensive. Um, and I was also stationed 90 minutes North and I just didn't have the ability to do that. Um, Asbury in Kentucky, which I think you guys are familiar with the Asbury revival. Um, Asbury is a, Asbury is another interdenominational one. Um, conservative, but, um, they do have agreements with the Methodist church. There are some very good main, when I say mainline, I do think Liberty's become mainline. Um, I, I know folks who go from different Christian religions. Um, and I could, again, we could have philosophical debates. Um, I've seen when I was studying public policy, so I'll use the ESV. That's my preferred vision for my biblical, uh, integration. I've seen people use the King James version. And it's interesting when you're a student in a PhD program or, or studying the, for your doctorate. And let me emphasize this, the difference between a PhD and a doctorate is specifically the type of research folks do. So if somebody says I've got a doctorate, or I think it's a THM or a doctorate in up theology, what they've done is they've done research in a real world problem. So they found a real world problem and they've researched it. So there's still a doctor in the classroom. It's just the research that they've done a PhD, which is a doctorate of philosophy. You're focusing in on new and emerging research. So you're, you're looking at a new field. You're doing, doing specifics in another area. So for me, I am pursuing a PhD. My research area is looking to trail into probably, um, leadership because I think it's an under, it's a very, it's an area, lots of great, you know, lots of folks will run around calling themselves leaders, but they act more like managers. And I don't think anybody fully comprehends the difference of it. I'm looking at incorporating Covey and Carnegie into my research. So I tell folks, read Stephen Covey's seven habits, highly effective people. And Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. They are, are they secular books? Yes, they are, but they do come with Covey is very influenced. He has a lot of religious influences in that are inferred in his view of the seven habits. And even in his followup book, the eighth habit, um, he is a Mormon. He was raised in the LDS church, but there is Christian, again, it's Christian influence, but enough to be secular that it can apply to everybody, but it's a good book. And I would encourage anybody to read it. It, it's a good starting place for somebody who might be looking to get out. The problem is though, most folks will read the book once, put it down. And that's where it's both Carney and Covey have earned, uh, the pop psychology where the, the, you know, Oh, it's just looks good. My view is, I think it's not been really explored. So that's why I'm, I'm looking at where I want to go, but more of applying it to emerging theory. Um, the other thing too, is you have to make sure your head might tell you something, but you can't make the move until your heart's in it. Um, from a, you know, that, and that's for a pastor to go pursue education. And Brad was going to say, man, if you pursue the PhD or the doctorate route, I think you're doing a great thing, especially the academic route. And, and I'll tell you what, once you get into that level, guys like us, um, we, we, we tend to be a lot different thinking. Our, our worldview is going to be a little different, but we tend to still be pretty humble. Uh, again, you know, when you go down that route, man, we start talking, I'll, I'll give you everything you need to know in terms of where to, where to go with that. Nothing negative. Um, like James, if you decide you want to pursue the higher level, I know you may be like, Hey, I just want to keep doing certifications, which is fine. Um, again, that's higher education, master's level, doctor level, man, that's for the birds. Yeah. But some guys love it and they're for it, but I just, I have zero desire. So, yeah. What I was going to say though, is the horizontal level where you're at though, you're expanding on it. You're expanding the depth depth. That's helping people at a, at a lower level with the decision-making, which isn't as theoretical. And that's what I think it, and that's the ability. That's also leadership in general, different little bit of a different kind of leadership, but I still think it's very leadership driven because you're leading people much like a pastor as the CEO leads people. It is just, there's ways to do it. You can go vertically to be higher and look for new ways. You can be horizontal and you're kind of, I want to stay in my church. I want to be where I'm at, but you cannot leave the church. Anybody can't leave the church and you can't look to do anything until your head and heart agree. That's right. Well, thanks Bryce for coming on today. I know it's been a long conversation. I think it's been great. Yeah. You have enjoyed today and I hope you've enjoyed this episode. If this has encouraged you, like and share it, share it with other people on social media. Until next time, to God be the glory. Great things he has done. I found my new name. I found that good grace. I found that healing. And the tears fell down my face When I found my beginning That has no ending Found that second chance Found my best friend Found my forgiveness Found my happiness I've been singing ever since I found my freedom in you Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content Do us a favor by liking, subscribing Or sharing our podcast On whichever podcast platform you use. Be sure to join us next time For the For Freedom Podcast.

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