116. Let us Prey Review Part 1

Welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James Seyfried and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom Podcast. We are so excited to be back into this new year, 2024. Brett, it's so hard to believe that 2023 has come and gone. And we are into a new year, a new church year. There's just something about a new year. I don't know if it's the same way for you. I sort of get excited just thinking about new things, a new start. Not like it's anything different. It's literally just one day to another. But that calendar flip, all the new things that come along with it. This is my first full year at this church at Pleasant Grove where I'm at. And I'm excited about it. What's your thought? New year? How are things going in your area? Well, it's weird because it's like the past year goes by so fast. You know, it's like you blink and you miss it. But then I think about when we went to Israel back in January. And it seems like 10 years ago that we went to Israel. Because maybe because I'm just, I can't wait to go back. But man, you know, a brand new year, brand new slate. There's excitement, especially in our church. We've got new. I told the people this Sunday, we're not going in a new direction, but we're going in a fresh direction. Yeah. And I'm excited about some of the things that we're going to implement in our church this coming year. When it comes to missions, we're going to go into missions on three different levels. We're going to go into community missions, statewide missions, overseas missions. And a lot, you know, I was telling my people about this and they're coming up to me after the Sunday morning service. Like, man, count me in, count me in. You know, put me down. And, man, that's exciting. You know, a new year is a new time to hit the ground running with a fresh direction. And, man, that's what I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to do. Let's get her done. Man, I love it. I think that's great. You know, at our church, we're rolling out a mission statement this past week and rolling out core values for the church, the four core values of the church. And, man, I was just super excited about it. Planning-wise, I'm a planner. I'm a guy that likes to sit down and I'll maybe take a day or day and a half just planning things out and brainstorming and getting ideas together. And so, man, it's been great for us. And you mentioned Israel. We are going to Israel next year. Now, we can officially say next year because it's 2025. And so, March of 2025, our trip got pushed because of the crisis that's going on in Israel right now. And I've got a couple of church members here that are saying they're wanting to go. And I'm going to be presenting it to our church. And I know that we've got some ones from the original trip that's still going to be going. And you've got some people going. Let's ask this, and we won't take a lot of time talking about this, but what's one thing that you're looking most forward to about when we go to Israel, Brett? Oh, man. I had such a connection with the Sea of Galilee. I don't know what it was. I know it was at the beginning of our trip. And I know I got to see a whole bunch of other stuff. We got to see the Garden of Gethsemane and the Temple Mount and the Garden Tomb and all that was great. But, man, there was just something special about the Sea of Galilee, all the stuff that happened in Jesus's early ministry in Capernaum and, you know, feeding of the 5,000 and walking on the water. And all that stuff, man, it just hit me. And my favorite thing that I did on our trip was that second day waking up before sunrise and watching the sun come up over the Sea of Galilee, one of the most precious times in my entire life. And I cannot wait to experience that again. And I will tell anybody that's considering maybe possibly going to Israel one day, you'll never regret going. It'll be something that you'll hold on to for the rest of your life. And I am just chomping at the bit to get back. Yeah, for me, I was talking to some church members this past week about it and was mentioning the Pool of Shalom and that road, those stairs that they had uncovered. And I told them, I said, I'm hoping that the next time we go, when we go and march, that that entire path will be, because they're excavating that path, that path will be cleared. And we'll be able to stand there at the Pool of Shalom and then walk that path that Jesus walked to the temple after he healed the blind man there at Shalom. I said, for me, that was just, you know, it was concrete proof. This is exactly where Jesus was at. Like, there's no doubt, there's no, archaeology wise, like there is zero doubt in anyone's mind that Jesus was there and in that exact spot. And we were in that exact spot. You know, Christopher Hutchins was an atheist and he was an atheistic apologist. And he would he would crusade against the Judeo-Christian God and and try to get turn people to atheism. And one of the things that he cited as evidence that the Bible's false is there was no Pool of Shalom. And then, you know, I'm pretty sure this is correct and somebody can correct me if it's not. But I'm pretty sure that he died of cancer. And then like a year later, the Pool of Shalom was discovered. Well, you know, and that's just that's an amazing story to me because archaeology always backs up the Bible. Right. I love it. I love it. Well, Brett, we're going to be going into a series after these. We're going to go to Pete, to Pete, a two part series this week and next week on a review of of an episode, a couple episodes that came out. We haven't done one of these in a really long time with me and John. Me and you have never done one. And so we're I'm excited about doing that with you. And then we'll be jumping into a series that we are so excited about. We've got interviews from people that, Brett, I have dreamed about interviewing. And, man, it's going to be great. We're going to share some of that next week's episode going into the new series. But today we're going to be reviewing to this week, this Thursday and next Thursday, the Let Us Pray docuseries that came out with the Preacher Boys podcast, Eric Skorosinski, and giving some thought on that. A couple of people reached out to me and asked if we were going to be doing a review. And I told them how we were. And the reason we're doing it a little later, we did have time in December to do it and release it. But I felt that I needed to process everything and watch it a couple of times, get my thoughts together to give a very balanced view of what it was. Again, there was a lot of information there. There was a lot of stuff that was given hurt that was given manipulation that was done in the church. And so we wanted to come from a point of view that was not necessarily as raw emotion, more of logic emotion here and talk through some stuff. And we'll do this week and we'll do a part two next week to finish up our thoughts. So, Brett, as we get started into that, what was your initial thought? And we're basically going to break this down. I think how many you discussed was the good, the bad and the ugly of Let Us Pray. Well, you know, first off, it's just a very emotionally moving and sometimes emotionally draining thing to watch. The things that... These women experienced are horrific. And, you know, you can see and I can think back in my time in the IFB and see things that I experienced that, you know, this kind of stuff was kind of hushed and kind of put under the rug. And so we, like you said, we just we needed time to watch it. I've watched it a couple of times. I want to make sure I get my thoughts straight. And the format that we're all that we are going to kind of go go through is the good, the bad and the ugly. Now, when we say good, what we mean by that is the good is the stuff that we kind of agree with. The bad are the things that we disagree with. And because we have to agree on 100 percent of everything. And then the ugly, which is just, you know, the really, really bad stuff that, you know, we have felt to discuss. And that's going to kind of be the format of how we're going to walk through this. And, you know, my suggestion would be just kind of start with the bad. Kind of start with the stuff that we kind of disagree with. Go into the good stuff that we, yeah, I agree with that. And then hit on the ugly at the end. Save that for as long as possible. Okay, let's do it. We'll start by thanking the women that came on the episode, that came on this docuseries. I liked how the RFP guys did that. And as best I could, I wrote down all their names. I may butcher their names. I may mispronounce them or and I hope I don't forget any. But Rachel Peach was on there. Fantastic story. I've heard her story many times. Ruthie Heiler was on there. Kathy Durbin. Her story is fantastic. I've listened to a lot of her interviews and a lot of her stuff. Jamie Hiles thought that her little bit of input was fantastic. And I'll say this later, but I wish they would have done more with Jamie Hiles. I think that was a great area. Amanda Holzhouser. Man, what a powerful story there in the girls' home. And that, I don't know Amanda. She may never listen to this. But I think Amanda's story has helped so many people that I know personally that were in girls' homes that were abused, that were in that. That there is hope. There is a way out. And I really appreciated her coming on and talking through that. April Avilia was able to share her story. Nanette Miles. Brianna Moore. And Amanda Clydence. Clydence. Clydence was on there as well. That's all the names that I had written down. And ladies, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing. I know that that takes a ton of courage, a ton of you're vulnerable. You're in a situation where people are going to attack you. You're going to hear the attacks. And you're putting yourself out there because you don't care about what people are going to say anymore. You just want the truth to be given. And so I really appreciate that. And we stand behind you. I've got your names written down. I pray for you guys now on an often basis. And I want to thank you for what you've done and allowed your story to be heard because it is powerful and it is great. And if there's anything we can ever do for you, please reach out to us because we want to help in any way possible. So, Brett, what are some of the bad things, the things that we disagreed with of the episode, these four episodes that were put out on the Discovery Channel, I believe? Well, let me say right as we're going into that, let me say a word to the women that you just listed. I want to say that I commend your courage and I commend your bravery. And, you know, you fight a battle every day. It's a battle that we'll never know. But we empathize with you and we support you. It's amazing to me the pastors and the Twitter clips that are coming out that are speaking against these women and trying to justify the actions of some people. And it just it turns my stomach. It makes me sick. And I just want these women to know that that we are. I as well am praying for them on their side. And I want to lift them up. I want their story to be heard. Their story. They need to be heard. They have a voice. And, you know, I'm glad that they're that they're speaking out. We don't want to silence them. We want them to speak out as loud as they possibly can. When it comes to the bad or the kind of stuff we kind of disagree with, I'm going to read a statement, James, that Eric made. And I want you to tell me your thoughts on it. He said every IFB church is a powder keg ready to explode every single one. What do you think about that? Initially, what I'll say is when you broad brush in that manner, it makes a lot of the other points that you say null and void. When you begin to. That's one of the things that I have tried. Me and John have tried. I know me and you have tried. Is to not broad brush anything. When you broad brush things with a big stroke of saying this church, this church, this church has hurt me or hurt other people. All of this church is bad. What happens is you may have individuals that are in a church that is really good and they're going to say, well, there's nothing for me to watch here because they're already saying that I'm like them. And so by broad brushing like that, you begin to discredit what you're saying in the rest of your show. And so by saying every, and I know the premise of what he's saying, he's saying that the hierarchical or the aristocratic, the hard nose leader style church is a powder keg waiting to explode. I understand that, but he didn't say that. He said every IFB church is a powder keg. Every, I mean, you could say like this, every independent church in the world is just, there's always something wrong with it and it's just going to explode. And the problem with that is it's a lie. It's not true. And because there are some great churches, there are some great Southern Baptists, IFB, non-denominational, Presbyterian. There are some great ones out there that have nothing to do with any type of coverup and they abhor that and they push back against it and he's lumping them in with that. I would, I wouldn't be scared to say anything, you know, everything is all in. If you want to qualify it by saying most or a lot of things like that. But to just definitively say every IFB church is just right for abuse and has pastors who abuse and pastors who don't report. And listen, we're not denying that any of that stuff doesn't take place. Absolutely. We see in the documentary that this stuff is real. It takes place. It needs to be addressed. We need to bring the light. So many things that were swept under the rug for so many years. But just the broad brush I think is unnecessary. I think you can qualify it better. Because like you said, there are a lot of independent fundamental Baptist churches out there that don't do this. But, you know, I also think about what Nathan said on the RFP. You know, the church has earned its black eyes. And, you know, we need to, you know, acknowledge, you know, and just like, you know, Eric, Eric, just like JC said also that Eric sees all the bad. And so, you know, I understand that. But I do think that the broad brush is something that we can do without. And so in that, I'm not necessarily agreeing with that. Another thing that we and me and you talked about is the statement where it says the whole IFB movement starts with one man, Jack Hiles. Now, you know more about this than I do. So I'm fixing to throw that back over to you. But I just want to say that, you know, in my vein of, you know, IFB churches, Jack Hiles was a prominent figure. But I know a lot of independent Baptist churches that, you know, were fundamental that never even heard of Jack Hiles or didn't have anything to do with Jack Hiles. So, you know, whereas, you know, in the vein of the show, all the churches that they're dealing with come from that. When it comes to the IFB as a whole, it may be an incorrect statement to say it all starts with one man, Jack Hiles. Maybe you can maybe you can shed a little bit more light on that for us. Yeah. So if you go back and you listen to our first episodes when John was flying solo, this is the episodes that I'm referring to here. The history of the IFB and John and me did some great things there. In my opinion, probably the best historical documented episodes on the history of the independent fundamental Baptist movement that has been ever released with the amount of detail and the work that was put into that. So if you're confused with that, go back, pause it here. Go back and listen, because I'm going to summarize it a little bit. So Jack Hiles was not the founder of the independent fundamental Baptist movement. The problem with that is Jack Hiles didn't come onto the scene until the 40s, 50s and 60s. And that's when he began to take over and and start to work through the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, which correctly was stated. It was a Southern Baptist Church to begin with and then became an independent Baptist church later on. They pulled out of the convention. So back in the 1920s, a guy by the name of J. Frank Norris was a part of the Southern Baptist Convention. He loved the convention. He wanted to be a part of the convention. But he was so divisive that he was kicked out of the convention twice. He joined the convention the second time after he was kicked out. And they kicked him out a second time because of his divisiveness, because he was just so just he wanted things done the way he wanted it done. And he was a big, large megachurch. He would be considered a megachurch in today's day and age. And so he had a lot of pull and a lot of sway. And so he started what was the Bible Baptist Fellowship, which became the independent fundamental Baptist movement. So when you look at the movement of a whole of the independent Baptist movement, J. Frank Norris is the father of the movement. And so all of a sudden, you've now got another layer of someone who maybe has some knowledge of this area who now sees what's been done and says, well, hold on. That's not true. Jack Howells is not the founder of the independent fundamental Baptist movement. It's someone else because I've read a book and I know these things and I've I've seen the history. And so all of a sudden, you've got another area of what is can be perceived of. Well, this also isn't true. Is anything else in this documentary true? Is anything else right? And so all of a sudden it begins to just there's little things that just again, I know where it's coming from because this is how I wrote it down. I understand that they're trying to frame the narrative of the circle abuse out of and around the Howells movement. But you have to set the stage right, not with false claims or it looks like there is improper motive. It seems like there's not the right motive. Jack Howells was the flagship church. Jack Howells was the person that made the independent fundamental Baptist movement what it is today. I would say he was one of the three people that made it what it is today. The size and the vastness that people wanted to replicate. Okay, there's not many churches. There's not many churches. There's not many towns that you can go to and you can say this is a Howells product church. Because there are so many communities that someone left Howells Anderson and went back to a small community and planted a church or took over a church and made it like a mini Jack Howells First Baptist Hammond. So in that situation, yes, he is the prominent leader, but he's not the founder. He's not the one that founded the movement. He's the one that promulgated the movement to the size that it is now. And so that information there, when you begin to process those two things, you begin to see just some fallacies in the research. And maybe it was they just wanted to show the connection between Howells and the movement of these men and the cover-up and the abuse. And I see that. I agree with that. Yes, there was the cover-up. There was the abuse. But call it for what it is. Don't say that he's the founder. Say he's the prominent leader. He's the one that made it all work, and he was the famous person that everyone wanted to be like. One of the reasons why we bring this stuff up is not to take away from the testimony of the women, but it's to add to it. Yeah. We don't want these inaccuracies to take away from the testimony and the things that these women went through and their experiences. And we're just afraid that if you do have inaccuracies like this, then it could take away from that, and we don't want it to. Once again, we're on the – we're not going to say victims. We're going to call them survivors. We're on the survivor's side, and we don't want anything to take away from what they experienced and went through and what they're going through. And these are just a few things that we're bringing up. Now, I had a question for you, James. One of the things that were mentioned, it was said, and it probably wasn't – I don't think it was intended as a blanket 100% truth statement. It might have just been an offhand comment. But I have a statement written down here about boarding schools that it was said every IFB member sends kids off to boarding school. And, of course, I don't think that was intended as a 100% accurate statement, although it could have been. I don't have a lot of experience with the boarding schools. I didn't even know that they existed until I went to Bible college, so I didn't know anybody that went to boarding school. But you said you had some experience with the boarding school. Can you shed any light on the boarding school with IFB? I don't have experience with the boarding school. I have experience with people who have went to girls' homes and boys' homes. Okay. Yeah, boarding school I'm not as familiar with. And I'm sure there was abuse done there. It's a difficult place. It's the ones that I'm most familiar with, like the military boarding schools, where a child who's opposite defiant will go to a military school, where it's very regimented, just building structure around them. That's the only thing I know about them. Well, he said boarding schools, but I think what he meant was the girls' homes and the boys' homes. I think that's what he meant. And I didn't know those existed until Bible college. Did you have anything else under this category of bad? That's the only thing bad that I came across as I watched through it. Again, a lot of this was storytelling. A lot of this was – once you get past that first episode, it's just the girls telling their story. And that's what I thought was just powerful, listening to their story. There were some things that they said that they wanted to paint in a bad picture. But I want to say – push back just a little bit and say that these are some good things. Because the old statement, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's true. You can have bad experiences, but there are some good principles still behind some of those things. And so I'm going to mention a couple, and I'll sort of bounce it back over to you. And then we'll just sort of go back and forth. A couple of things that I pointed out that I thought were really, really good that were said was one of the ladies said that she was born in church. That she was, you know, from the couple of days after she was born, she was in church. And every time the doors opened, she was in church. And Monday through Saturday, she was there, and she was working, and she went to school there. You know, I had that opportunity. I was born in church. I was born on a Thursday, and that Sunday I was in church. And I can't think of a time that I was not in church. I have an awesome heritage that God has blessed me with. A friend of mine named David Tao, he would never listen to this so I can mention his name. He didn't come to Jesus until about 10 years ago. Lived a hard life. And I got to know him about six years ago when I got to the church that I was at. His daughter just had her baby. And I got to be at the hospital, got to pray with him. And as I was praying with him there at the hospital, I said this statement in my prayer. I said, Lord, allow this child to be in church your whole life. Not everyone has that opportunity. And he started crying as I was praying this because he knew that he lived a hard life for 40 years until he finally received Jesus and got in church. And he told me at his dad's funeral, I wish I could have the testimony that I was in church every time. That I was in church when the doors were open. But unfortunately, I lived half of my life outside of the church and outside of God's people. And he said, I struggle in my spiritual walk because of it. Because of the decisions that I made. Because I wasn't raised in church. And I understand the value of people being in church. I made this statement this past Sunday. God created the church to reach the world. And so it's not a bad thing that we've been in church our whole life. It's a bad thing when church abuses you. But it's not a bad thing to be in church. I agree. That, you know, I wish I had the opportunity to say that. I have been in church since I was a teenager. We went sporadically as kids. And so that alone by itself, I think, is a good thing. Especially if you're going to a good, solid church. That is absolutely a good thing. But there are, you know, there to the credit to some other. There might be some churches that do have a wrong way of, you know, looking at, you know, the way the home structure is. And maybe possibly a situation with an overbearing pastor. Things like that. So when it comes to stuff, when it comes to things like that, that in and of itself, by itself, is a good thing. And it's a blessing that somebody would be able to say that. But still at the same time admitting that there are some churches that are not exactly doing right. They do exist. Yeah. And so that was another thing. Did you have something else? Yeah. I wrote down several on this. Me too. Memorizing verses. One of the ladies said that, you know, they were just memorizing verses. Again, I love when my kids memorize verses. I love when I memorize verses. The Bible says we should hide God's word in our heart so that our heart doesn't fail. Our heart is an idol factor. Our heart's going to produce things. And so if we can put good things in our heart, it's going to allow us to produce good things. And if scripture is what we're putting in our heart, it's a pretty good thing. And so I don't think memorizing scripture is a bad thing. Uh, one lady said that, um, when she was in the IFB church, they taught her hard work and good work ethics. Again, if I can teach my kid hard work and good work ethics, I'm going pretty good with the society in the day and age it is. And so I don't see that as a negative. I don't see that as something that is wrong. Um, one lady said that life revolved around church. Um, as a pastor, my kids' lives revolve around church anyways. Um, but again, I don't think it's a bad thing that our lives revolve around the church and the things of God's work. Um, and then I'll mention this one and then I'll kick it to you. Let you say a couple of things. Um, one lady had made this statement. The Bible is taken literally. That's a bad thing. Um, I want the Bible to be taken literally because it is a good thing to be taken the Bible literally. Now taking it and twisting it to fit my narrative is a different thing. But if scripture says to guard my mouth, to guard my heart, yeah, I want to take that literally. And so it's not a, not a good thing. And so Brett, what are a couple of your good things? Okay. Now it's, it's really neat the way me and you both look at this different. Um, I agree with everything that you just listed. Um, I think those are really good things by themselves. When, when I, what I wrote down under good is I, I wrote down things that weren't necessarily good in and of themselves, but things that I agreed with, um, in the show. So these things that I'm going to list, they're not good things by themselves. That's why I'm glad I mean, you did it this way. Um, these aren't good things, but they are things that I agreed with in the show. And so one of the things that they mentioned, uh, was patriarchy and, uh, like, uh, an IFB church can be a man's world. And they said it was a perfect storm for SA, um, you know, uh, sexual abuse. And, um, I agree with that statement that, you know, like the man has the whole voice. Um, um, the man is right, no matter what, even when they're wrong, they're right. And, uh, um, you blame women for the actions of men. Like one of the things that they said was like, men are just these uncontrollable beasts. So you got to cover up, you know, whenever, you know, what, you know, women have to cover up and they're responsible, uh, for the man lusting. It's, it's not on the man. The reason why the man lusted is because the woman didn't cover up. And there are churches like that. There are independent, independent fundamental Baptist churches like that. I know a lot of them are like that. And, and I agree with the show that there are churches like that. And that's some of the bad practices that can lead to some of the situations in the show. And I've grown up and I've seen things like this and I've experienced this in my own marriage. And part of my testimony is me and my wife, we were brought up, you know, with this idea that the man is right, no matter what. And so I would be wrong. And my wife would try to, you know, we're fresh out of, of house Anderson college. And my wife would try to correct me on something. And I would give her the look because that's what I was taught to do. And then one day I, it wasn't, I'll never forget. I was in a blockbuster and, you know, my wife, I said something wrong and my wife went to correct me and called herself. And right then it's like the spirit of God convicted me. It's like, Brett, what are you doing? What are you doing to your wife? This is wrong. This attitude is wrong. And man, on the way home, I broke down crying and I repented to her. And I was like, this is wrong. This isn't the way you should be treated. And so then we started getting in the word of God and, um, and saying that, you know, this, this is not the way that we should act. And so I think that, you know, uh, I do agree that that system of patriarchy in a church can lead, definitely lead to this type of abuse, especially when you put the responsibility all on the woman and the man has no responsibility. Yeah, I agree. Um, the, uh, Bruce Goddard hierarchy umbrella, it's not right. And, uh, I definitely think that there, it can be a, um, powder keg. We'll use that term to set up for abuse. Um, but it not always is. And so, uh, but I do think there has to be some authority structure. Um, God created authority structure in Genesis chapter two and three. Man sinned and he put man in charge of the garden. He put man in charge of his family and in part of his house as a contradiction of what, how it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be, they were going to cohabitate together and they were going to both have this unity. There wasn't going to be this, this, this power structure, but because of the fall, because of sin, this is what happens. And God said that the wife is going to be subject to her husband. And it's not going to be this, oh, I'm just going to bow down at your feet. But he said that this is going to happen because of the fall. And so there is this authority structure that is there as well. So I agree with that, Brett. Yeah. I mean, I, a hundred percent, uh, you know, the husband is the leader of the home. That doesn't mean he's the dictator. That doesn't mean that the woman should worship the husband because any worship you give anybody other than God is wrong. Right. Um, and, and in the Bible, when a woman is told to submit, she is not, you know, the church isn't supposed to force her to submit. The husband is not supposed to, you know, force her to submit. She is to submit of our own free will. Um, it's, it's her act of, you know, submission, uh, to, you know, to the Lord. She has it, she does it voluntarily. And, but yes, I do agree. Uh, you know, I am, I am a, uh, a complimentarian a hundred percent, but at the same time, you know, a husband just because he's a leader doesn't mean he's, he's a dictator. Right. Um, another thing, and I've got several of these, and when you're ready to cut to the next episode, let me know. Uh, but the next thing that I wrote, have written down is children do not have voices. And man, did James, did I feel that in my soul? Uh, because when you're a kid growing up, I have the, I know, especially in my church, man, you had absolutely no voice whatsoever. And, you know, you, you, you had to be careful what you said. Everything you say can, will be used against you. Sometimes it feels like, um, and then, you know, you go into college and you're still treated as a child and you still feel like you have no voice. And I felt that way. You know, some of these women, they were chomping at the bit to get to house Anderson, to get away from, you know, their situation, you know, and then you get to house Anderson and yes, you get away from your situation. But at house Anderson, you, you know, you're treated as a child as well and you have no voice there either. And you're not treated as an adult. And so I definitely, um, that's something that I agreed with, uh, that, you know, I've experienced in the, in the IFB. And then another thing that, you know, we, they talked about was they talked about, they called it the pedophile shuffle. Okay. And a lot of people called it leapfrog. We called it, you know, the assistant pastor shuffle where, and we, I experienced this and I can sympathize with this because I experienced this even in the church that I grew up in. And I don't know if you saw this, uh, you know, growing up IFB, but I definitely did where the assistant pastor would come into the church. He would have some kind of affair or do something nefarious. And then, you know, the pastor would call his buddy in the next state over. And then that assistant pastor would go over there and work for that pastor. That happened all the time. And that happened in the church that, that I grew up in. And, you know, there are certain, and nobody would ever talk about it. It would be hushed and nobody would ever say anything. Things would be swept under the rug. And, you know, just think if how, how much could be, you know, prevented of this type of behavior and this type of abuse, if people would just speak up. And another thing that they talked about was pastors being mandated reporters. And as pastors, that's what we are. We are mandated reporters. We have to report when it comes to this type of things. I can't tell you how many times as a pastor I've had to, people would beg me not to call the police and I wouldn't have no choice. I would pick up the phone and I would call the police because I have to report these things. Because if I don't report these things, I am just as guilty as the perpetrator. And I get put into them and I'm not going to risk, you know, my life and my freedom to keep silent on something that should be reported. And I think that these pastors like John Jenkins and Bruce Goddard, who did not report these issues and these problems, I think they should be held accountable for not reporting. Because we've seen in the documentary where, you know, if the pastor would have said something, if they would have called the police, if they would have told the church, then so many things would not have happened. And, you know, as pastors, we are mandated reporters. And I'm going to ask you what, you know, what you think about that. But I am just, I'm appalled that these pastors can hear these things and then just sweep it under the rug. And I personally, I'm sick to death of it because I experienced that growing up as well. So we never experienced that in our church. Again, we were an IFB church and there was no abuse that was ever done. Um, the, that I know of, I'll say like that. Um, yes, we must report that we are a mandatory reporter. We have to do these things. That's what we are called to do. What aggravates and frustrates me is where, um, some of these ladies, I'm thinking of it, especially like in John Jenkins church, who, because the person wasn't turned in the first time, another girl was abused. And if only the pastor would have turned him in the first time, the second time would have never happened because he wouldn't have been there to happen. Or he moves on to another state and it happens in another state. And now all of a sudden, if the pastor would have just done his job, don't, he was supposed to do that wouldn't have happened. And then this is the part that gets me the most. How can you as a pastor stand up in front of your church and preach the goodness of God when you don't even report the bad, when you don't report because you don't want your church to have a blind, a bad eye in the community? It doesn't matter at that point. Your obligation is to those people. You're to shepherd those people. You're to care for those people, not to hurt them by not turning them in. And so, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it, it frustrates me to no end, um, because they didn't do those things. Uh, let me share my last two that I have, and then I'll let you share your last couple ones that you have, Brett, uh, two that I thought was great. Um, I love the court proceedings and been able to see how that all transpired, uh, because that gives so much help to some ladies that, um, are struggling to maybe come forward, maybe to come forward on, uh, abuse that happened and maybe to think, well, if I come forward, nothing's ever going to happen. That was proof that this court proceeding can happen, will happen. And your voice will be heard to see that judge, look at those ladies and say, I've got your back. I've I'm standing with you. Just give me your voice. Tell me what you have to say and I'll make the ruling. And I thought that was powerful, man. Love that. Love that ending of that. Um, the purity culture, um, it was painted in a bad light. I think purity culture is great. Um, if it's taught, right, purity culture to be taught to abuse girls is taught wrong. But I think purity to stay a virgin until you get married, I think is a beautiful picture, beautiful picture. And so by saying that's a bad thing, uh, in reality, I believe it's a good thing. And then, um, the last thing I'll say is I loved the community that has come out from this, the blind eye movement, you said it earlier, these ladies have a community, have a voice to go to, have a group of people that can relate to them, that can help each other. And I think that was a fantastic movement that has come out. Brett, what's your last couple of things that you've got? And then we'll close the episode down for the day. Um, uh, let me just say two things off of what you said, and then we'll save the rest of what I have for the next episode. Um, I want to say that I thought that her sitting, I think it was Rachel sitting with her lawyer, having that conversation. I think that was such a good thing to show because what Rachel needed in that moment is she needed her lawyer to comfort her. She needed to not feel alone. She needed to feel heard. And her lawyer delivered that in that moment, comforted her and, and told her what she needed to know, gave her the confidence and bravery to step forward. And I'm so thankful that that was shown on the documentary so that other women, uh, who are potentially going to have to go through the same thing that she went through can see that. Yes. When you step out and you speak up, there are going to be people fighting for you. There are going to be people in your corner. There are going to be people that care about you. You're not getting, you've been alone so far, but when you speak up, you're not going to have to be alone anymore. And I'm so thankful that that moment was captured on camera because I think that that would, that would just give other women the, you know, the, uh, uh, the comfort in knowing that if they did step out and speak up, that there would be people in their corner. And, and I loved that interaction with her lawyer. I think it was a good thing. And I just want to, I want to go on top of what you said about purity culture, because, you know, we say purity culture is toxic, purity culture is toxic. And that's a, you know, so many people use that. And I, I a hundred percent agree with you that, you know, maybe the culture is, is toxic when it comes to it being abused, but purity in and of itself is not, and never will be a bad thing. It's something that the, uh, you know, the, you know, the Bible, you know, tells us to do. And I think that that's another blanket statement that, you know, purity culture is, you know, toxic. It is when it's abused. So I, you know, I'm going to agree with you that, you know, when it comes to, to purity, it is something that the Bible teaches. It's something that we need to teach, but we need to teach it the, the right way. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Teach it the right way. Uh, it's very vital. Well, thanks for joining us today. Uh, we're so excited that you have tuned in, hopefully this whole part. And, uh, if you can ever, we can ever do anything for you, reach out to us and, uh, we'll pick this back up next week with part two. And until next time to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Found my new name. Found that good grace. Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning. Has no ending. Found that second chance. Found my best friend. Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness. I've been singing ever since. I found my freedom in you. Thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast. 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