10: The Link between the Pulpit & Domestic Abuse - An Interview with Joy Forrest

This is the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now, here's your host, John Hollifield. Welcome, everybody, today to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host, John Hollifield, and I am super excited today. I'm going to be covering a subject in the podcast for the next couple of episodes on abuse. And so we're going to kick that off today with an interview with somebody that I have grown to admire and appreciate and just really look up to as, you know, with her writings and her teachings. And that's Miss Joy Forrest of Call to Peace Ministries. Hello, Joy. How are you today? I'm doing well, John. Thanks for asking me to come. I'm excited. All right, Joy, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing today in your ministry. Well, I am the executive director and founder of Call to Peace Ministries, and that is a ministry that offers hope and healing to survivors and victims of domestic abuse. And we have a twofold mission to provide practical support to them and also come alongside people helpers to equip them to know how to better help. Because I know when I was going through it and everywhere I reached out for help, nobody really knew how to help me. I didn't know what I was going through. I didn't even define it as abuse. I just knew something was terribly wrong and I did not know how to basically break free because nobody knew. They were all treating it like a marriage problem. And domestic abuse does not equal a marital problem. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And so the ministry has been, I think I read in your book, since 2015? Yeah, that was when we originally started. We did not become a nonprofit until about the end of 2016. And so, and really we're just trying to define what our purpose was the first two years. So, you know, about 2018, we really took off and we have been growing at a rate that has astounded me because I just, I really wasn't expecting to get that kind of response, but it just shows the amount of trouble we have within our churches, the amount of what, you know, how severe the issue is within the evangelical churches and the great need to be able to respond more, let's see, accurately. The way we respond is a lot of times can do more harm than good. And so that's what happened with me. Even when I reached back to help others, I felt like I was doing more harm than good because I didn't have the training. It's just one of those issues. It's a Jose, Jose of four, six issue. People perish for lack of knowledge. Yeah. And that leads me to the next thing that I want to, I want you to talk about before we get into the dealing with some of these subjects that I think will help a lot of people. One thing that I think will help some people is hearing a little bit about your story. You've alluded to it already of you yourself have experienced domestic abuse. So would you mind telling a little bit about your story? Yeah. So I met a guy when I was 14 years old and we dated throughout high school and college. I knew that his dad was abusive to his mom, but he hated it so much that I thought I certainly didn't have anything to worry about. He was claimed to be a Christian. I was a Christian. And so when we got married, I just, but I do remember not having peace about getting married. And I remember just asking God to follow my plan for my life, you know? And anyway, within a month of the honeymoon, it was, things changed dramatically. I knew he had kind of been prone to depression and things like that before we got married. But after the marriage, I remember my brother came to visit us and he had left an apple core and his socks in the living room and had, you know, had failed to put, you know, the apple core in the trash. At 3 a.m., the lights came on in my bedroom and my husband was, yanked the covers off of me and got in my face and said, you get in there and you clean up your brother's mess right now. And he looked so scary. I was scared to death and I was afraid if I don't do this, he's going to hurt me. So I went and I did what he said. And, excuse me, that was the first lesson. I tell people there were lessons in domestic abuse. So you learn, I'm not going to do that again because it's going to be, it's going to cause problems with him. So eventually what happens is you're not doing a million things that you did before and it warps the way you think. You basically find yourself living in fear of man and doing everything to please the person rather than living to please God because you can't do both. Yeah. And so that was, but this was sort of an escalating process. It just continually to ended up, you know, getting worse. You had, you had children as well. That was that, that incident right there was before, uh, before children. Yeah, absolutely. So yes, it does escalate. And one thing we know, I mean, cause now I've worked with domestic violence survivors for so long is that domestic abuse is progressive over time. We can expect that it will get worse, um, without any intervention. So I did not know that. And so, you know, 15 years into the marriage, it had gotten deadly. Um, you know, and you've read my, you've read my story, but, um, you know, the whole time I didn't believe in divorce. I was reaching out for help from my church. My pastor finally looked at me one day and he goes, he gave me the. A card that had the number for a divorce attorney or like a family law attorney. And he goes, I don't know what else to tell you. You know, we've tried everything. And I thought this man does not know Jesus. I mean, how could a Christian tell me to even consider a divorce? I did not believe in it. So, um, you know, finally, after trying every option I called focus on the family, you guys need to do a show on domestic abuse. So they sent me some cassette tapes back in the day and I listened to those. And then my husband and I, he agreed to go out to, we, we flew out to Omaha, Nebraska, and we went through this program that really got domestic abuse for the first time in my life. Somebody understood because every time before we'd gone for marital counseling, every session would get flip-flop back on me. You know, why are you so angry? And then he would say, well, you know, house isn't always clean when I come home. And they would, you know, we would go with that kind of thing. That kind of, uh, was the narrative of the, that was the direction that the counseling sessions would take. And so I always was trying to do, but I could never do everything that he wanted. I remember he just would get angry about things I had no control over. Like, you know, my daughter taking his brush one day and he couldn't find it and tore the house apart. So, you know, just, um, the, the marital counseling had fallen short over and over and over again. And when we got out to Omaha, I saw a copy of a power and control wheel, which is a, uh, basically a document that was created by a domestic violence, uh, program up in Minneapolis, Minnesota. No, it was Duluth, excuse me, Duluth, Minnesota. And it was based on observation of about 300 survivors of domestic abuse. And when I looked at that, I thought, oh my goodness, it looked like somebody had been in my house, like a fly on the wall and knew everything that I was going through. There was something from every single category on that wheel. And so it was an eye opener to me. It was an eye opener to him, but there was nobody that could hold him accountable. And eventually, even after that time, there was a strangulation attempt. And I thought, if I don't get out of here, I'm not going to be alive to parent my children. So I ended up having to flee. And, um, you know, I, I stayed married to him for five years. Uh, and then he divorced me so that he could remarry. But, um, there, there just were no easy answers. During that time, God really brought me through a healing, like an emotional healing process through his word, it was amazing. Um, just his provision that he put the right kind of Bible studies in my life at the right time. So I was able to forgive my, my ex. And, um, I was also able to just cling to his goodness, you know, learn who he really was again. Cause I think I'd, I'd lost it in all of that. You know, my, I think that we become very much legalist when we live with domestic abuse, you know, and so when I read scripture, I was looking for rules and regulations instead of his heart. And one day I was reading, um, first Corinthians seven and it says, you know, if the unbelieving spouse wants to leave, let them go. In such cases, the believing spouse is not under bondage. Well, every time I'd read it, I'm like, well, he says he's a believer and he doesn't really want to leave. He, he, he would have stayed with me, but I, I might've been dead. I said, um, but Lord, you know, he says he's a believer. It doesn't want to leave. And so I'm looking for the law, but that day I'm reading it. And it says in such cases, the believing spouse is not under bondage because God has called us to peace. And I don't know if you've ever had a passage of scripture that jumped out at you, but that's what happened to me that day. I realized I hadn't had peace in 23 years. I dated him for eight years and I'd been married for 15 and I had not had any peace. I, you know, except for the moments where I could sneak away, but it was almost impossible to live in peace because we didn't know when the next explosion was going to occur. We were living like walking on eggshells all the time. And so the only peace, you know, semblance of peace we had was when he was gone, he was an emergency room physician and worked about an hour away. So, um, when he worked, um, you know, and stayed overnight there, that was when we had a little bit of peace, but I did not have lasting peace. Yeah. Yeah. So this, this brings me to the next, the next question I want to ask you to do. I've heard you speak before and you talked about how, when you were in, in it, you never really viewed yourself as somebody that was a victim of domestic abuse because he never really used his fist into your face. But there were, uh, just off the top of my head, what I've read in your book, there was a knife to your throat incident. There was, uh, banging your head against the steering wheel. There was other issues, other things that you had just mentioned. Can you, and this is, this, this is really for the audience because I really want the people to listening to, to, because this was eyeopening for me. Can you define domestic abuse? Domestic abuse is a pattern of, um, controlling tactics usually that, that are used to keep somebody, um, in line basically to keep them under control. So it's all about power and control. When I saw that power and control wheel that I mentioned to you, it talks about various tactics that abusive people use to basically oppress, uh, their victims. So, um, we were looking at things like intimidation, um, you know, put downs, emotional, we call it, some people call it emotional abuse to other people, but basically constant criticism. You can't do anything right. Everything is your fault. They minimize and deny what they've done and they blame you for it. Um, there are just a host of things, including financial, uh, abuse, which would be, um, you know, in a lot of cases, it might be that, that they, you have to account for every penny. I've seen that with several of the women we work with. And in other cases, it might be that they take your money. So there's different types of financial abuse. Um, again, intimidation. I remember he used to maybe put his fist through the wall to let me know you're next if you don't get in line. So we're just looking at, um, basically somebody who is trying to lord it over somebody else, oppressing them and usually causing them to live in fear. But it's a pattern. It's not just a one-time incidents incident. Yeah. And this is, this, it's, it's so interesting that you see, you, to hear you describe it is, you know, I said, there's so many parallels to that and, and abuse in other forms of people that just, you know, and a lot of it, I think, you know, is this mentality of authority. You know, people can use that, you know, I've heard Chris Moles talk about the power dynamics, you know, and it, that happens in, uh, it's just, my mind is just racing right now with what you, the way you described that of, you know, making connections to all kinds of different things of, of how people use that and get away with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's way more common than I think we realize. And one of the reasons that we don't recognize it a lot of times is because if you, even if you looked at the power and control wheel and I keep referring to that, cause that's what opened my eyes, but, um, there are checklists that you can take. We, we have one on our website at called to peace.org. But, um, you know, just warning signs of an abusive relationship, but I, now I lost my train. No, but that's, that's okay. So I'll link, I'll, I'll find the power of control wheel and, and try to link that graphic to, uh, the show notes. But let me say this. I think that with what you just said, if you're listening to this and you say, well, I'm not, I'm not a wife. I'm not even a woman and I'm not, you know, in a domestic, maybe you should go look at that power control wheel and see if there is some type of relationship like that going on in your life. Yeah. And that's what opened my eyes to make me realize, to recognize it was abusive. Um, because abusive people tend to be very, um, they're like Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. They can be wonderful. And so we had so much good in between, in my mind, an abusive relationship would have meant that he had to come home and pound me in the face every single night. You know, that's just the way I defined it. And I would say that probably the vast majority of women that I work with don't consider themselves abuse because there's, there are good times in between and the good times keep us kind of, well, like if I could just get him, you know, that guy back, that, that person, um, if he would just stay that way and we think, oh, he's going to change because maybe he'll do something that makes us think, well, we might need to leave. And then they might get nice for a little while again. We call that manipulative kindness. They used to call it a honeymoon phase in the old domestic violence models, but they realize that's not really a honeymoon phase. It's just manipulation, trying to win, um, her back after, uh, you know, so that this, it just starts all over again. The, um, abuse will continue. And again, we know it will escalate over time, but the, you know, I think one of the first steps to healing is to admit what the problem is in the first place. Yeah. Like this is, this is abusive and abuse simply means to misuse, right? It's not, uh, people hate to use that word, but it, it means that you're, um, you're, you're misusing somebody you're actually, or using them, you're exploiting them. You're, uh, doing something that God did not intend. Yeah. Yeah. I remember thinking about that and I was thinking, well, if somebody was challenging me on this, how would I define abuse? And I thought it's the mistreatment of something that should not be mistreated. Yes. Oh, it's okay. So the segue into the next thing I was thinking about this, um, and you already referred to the story about the hairbrush. And one of the things that really impacted me and made me stop and sort of consider, uh, and I told you this story about calling my wife and saying, Hey, did you, did, do you feel this way around me? And she said, no, but I've seen this, uh, and other, you know, familial relationships. Uh, and that is the hairbrush incident and the, you know, feeling like you're walking on eggshells around somebody. And I know there's a difference between, um, there's a difference between trying to do things or arrange things because out of love for your spouse. And because you know that they would appreciate that to trying to make things, things a certain way so they don't lose it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a huge difference. I mean, I did, I would go out of my way to try to make things nice. And then he would barely acknowledge. I remember one of the ladies that we work with in the ministry, sorry. Um, she said that her husband always criticized no matter what she did, you know, she was being criticized. So one night she thought, well, I'll just cook two dinners. If he doesn't like this one, he'll certainly like the other one. He came in and he looked at both of them and just walked upstairs. Um, but you know, so there was nothing that she could do to please him. And that's the way it is. I noticed that I was reading in, um, Luke, um, this morning and, and Jesus said, um, they were telling him, he said, well, John the Baptist came and his disciples were fasting and you didn't like that basically. And then now the son of man comes and we're eating and drinking and you basically calling us a bunch of guttons. It's like nothing that we can do is right for when, when somebody's toxic, there is nothing that you can do. That's right. In their eyes, maybe for a little while, if you will stroke their ego, that's about all. That's about all that helps, uh, with them for a little while. And that's a very temporary fix. Okay. So to play devil's advocate here, to move to the next, next subject, someone may listen to this and say, well, maybe you guys are just, uh, playing to some kind of the liberal ideology of the day and going a little bit far with this. I mean, we're the church and you know, the Bible teaches that wives are supposed to submit to their husbands, Ephesians five. So at this point, I want you, before we go into like the main topic that I want to get to, um, define what is known as complementarianism. Well, in my mind, there is such a, um, I guess you would call it a continuum of complementarity. So you have people on one end, in my mind, who are just patriarchal, they can call themselves complementarian, but to be complementarian is to say that we are equal in value, equal and position before God, co-heirs of grace, um, you know, equal image bearers of God, but we have different functions. So that's what I would see as complimentary, you know, the, uh, basic definition of complementarian, complementarian. Um, but what I find is that, um, people add a lot to that. And when they look at these different roles and when it talks about, um, submission and Ephesians chapter five, we look at what I've found in several of the churches that I've been in is that they teach submission as though it means obedience. But when you look at the Greek word hypotaso, it doesn't mean, uh, obedience at all. It means a voluntary yielding for the sake of order, um, is what one scholar wrote. And I thought, well, you know, and then I love what my friend Chris Moles says when, um, submission ceases to be voluntary, it is no longer submission. It becomes subjugation. And I don't believe that's what scripture intends at all. If we're talking co-heirs of grace, then, you know, no longer is there equal function, excuse me, equal value when, when somebody is being subjugated. Yeah. Yeah. And so where would the two functions? So there's, there's equal value of course. I think that's, uh, Galatians. There's neither June or Greek male nor female. Uh, we are all in the body of Christ. We are equal. Men are not better than women. Women are not better than men. We are equal, but there, the Bible does speak of different functions. Uh, and what, what areas are those, those different functions in? Surely they're not every aspect of society, right? Right. Right. And, um, so again, there are different interpretations of that. So I see how this plays out differently for different people in different churches. I would say that even among the complementarian ranks, there are people who, um, look functionally like they're egalitarian, which means that they don't see a difference in roles because that's just the way it plays out in their lives. We don't have somebody lording it over or telling somebody what to do. Um, but I think that the, it does say in scripture and you can't get around that, that, you know, that the man, that the man is the head of the wife, like Christ is the head of the church. But if you think about the way that Christ served the church, loved the church, gave up his life for the church, then, um, I don't see how you can come up with this dictatorial, um, model that we see in so many marriages. Um, so, you know, again, there's such a continuum in my mind. Um, when I look at Jesus, it is so interesting to me. I've been in two, two churches that actually brought women up on church discipline for leaving an abusive spouse. I have never seen a church bring a man up on church discipline for failing to love his wife. Like Christ loved the church. It's in the same passage. So why? Yeah. Wow. And let me just say this, this is, you're someone who's seen quite a few cases. Yeah. Uh, so I guess what, uh, what, what I'm saying before we move to move from complementarianism, I always taught this whenever I'm doing premarital counseling and explaining marriage roles. I say, you know, it says you're the head of the home, but that just means that God's going to hold you responsible. It doesn't mean that you were, you know, the ruler, you know, you don't sit there and give the orders. And, uh, in the church, uh, I think the role of elder is mentioned, but that doesn't mean that women can't teach. Right. Right. It's sort of where I've seen those distinctions biblically. Well, and you're going to, you're just, you'll find different churches interpret that in different ways. And this is where I think I consider this a non-essential of the faith. There are egalitarians who really honor scripture who, who say, okay, that, that passage, um, the word head means source. And so that doesn't mean a hierarchical relationship at all. So when, and I see other churches and when even, in fact, my theology book and seminary before Dr. Aiken wrote his was, um, said that they believe that a woman could function in any position in the church, except for the head, head pastor. And so, you know, you're going to find people, scholars coming down on all different, um, parts of that continuum. And so again, to me, if, if people who are sincere scholars can differ by actually sincerely studying the word of God, then I don't think this is something that we can, um, be very dogmatic on, but, but churches are. And so you, so what you're saying is there's good teachers, good scholars who's contributed much to the body of Christ that disagree. Amen. Amen. Yes. And so, yeah, so my churches, their, uh, their motto is, um, liberty in, let's see, excuse me, uh, unity in the essentials, liberty in the non-essentials. There are just some things that we will never have a hundred percent clear picture on. There are things like, you know, we talked about it before we turned the recording on here, that there are things that Paul said, we don't have all the letters, so we don't know what he was addressing. Oh yeah, first Corinthians can really mess people up. So all we can do is speculate that, that, that he was probably answering something about this. Yeah. So it's very, um, I think it's very, we need to be very careful about taking dogmatic stances on things that are not a hundred percent clear in scripture. Now, when it comes to salvation, um, you know, just the, the orthodox things that have been passed down through the ages that we know to be standards in scripture, um, salvation by grace through faith and the Trinity, even those things we can take a hard, um, you know, a more solid stand. I wouldn't say a hard stand. I just don't believe that, um, we will ever win anybody by taking a harsh stance on anything. You know, it says his kindness leads us to repentance. And so, um, I, I have been, I've been a Christian for almost 50 years now, and I have seen how the harsh stances that we can take, um, will turn people away. And I see so many children of domestic abuse, leaving the church altogether because somebody took such a harsh stance. You can't do this. You can't, and they're looking at scripture with an eye towards rules instead of relationship. And so to me, when we do that, we're setting ourselves up. I think it's, it's a precarious place to be. I don't think that, uh, I know that, you know, it says in, um, James, not many of you should, is it James? It says not many of you should seek to be teachers because we're going to be judged by a harsher standard. And I believe part of that is because we are, especially if we're taking a position of authority and we're telling people things that are actually causing them to stumble. And I can see that happening with these, um, non-essential things of the faith where I, I mean, I, in the last church I was in, I had a man pounding the pulpit and said, you need to submit. I don't care if he's good. I don't care if he's bad. You need to submit. And that there were women that just left church after that. They weren't going to come back in there because they were being abused and they thought he meant I have to stay and be abused. And so, and, and for a long time for me, the teaching on submission caused me to have like, I literally became nauseated. And I said, Lord, you're just going to have to teach me because I don't want to hate anything from your word. Please show me what this means. Yeah. And so he was able to do that. It, it, it was a faith in him, you know, then your Sarah's daughters, when you, you know, basically don't give into fear, it says in first Peter. So, um, I was living out of constant fear. So submission should not be an act of fear because you see that's, that would be cowering in obedience. And it's not the same thing as submission, whereas a voluntary yielding where I'm putting my faith in God and I am yielding. Maybe I'm yielding to my husband, his desires because I'm showing him what God's love looks like, but I'm yielding to God first, not a man. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's awesome. And I think that we would be helped. I said this in the last podcast or last interview I did. And that is one of the reasons why I'm having some of the, you know, I know people are going to say, well, John, we know you, you know, you don't want to line up with what they just said, but you didn't stop them. And one of the reasons why I'm doing and having certain people on is because is people that's in that fundamental mindset is to understand we can learn from people that we may disagree with on secondary issues. Yes. And I think the thing is we've got to leave them as secondary issues. And I want you to know, like I have, I think, you know, my experiences now I've probably worked with 2000 survivors of domestic abuse. And I have just seen scripture used as a weapon so much that I have, and I'm getting older too. It was like when I was in my twenties, I knew everything thirties, I knew mostly everything. And now I'm in my sixties and I'm like, Oh, I don't, you know, I could be wrong. I could be wrong about a lot of things. And so I really try to keep that, you know, my mind open where yes, especially on those things that, again, a bunch of scholars from different backgrounds, but they are, I think, very sincere and educated scholars. Like even within my own seminary, I love that. They taught us when you go to scripture, you don't go to it to prove your point. You go to see what was the original intent of the author in the original text. Right. So, um, but, but you got, but I had professors, multiple professors within the same seminary, conservative seminary who were, who had different, um, interpretations of a lot of passages just because they're not a hundred percent clear in scripture. We have, it is a hundred percent clear wherever it's most important. Like we know there's certain things that we know that you cannot debate in scripture. But again, some of these things I think are debatable. And so anyway, um, again, like the older I get, the more I think maybe I'm wrong because I've heard arguments on all sides. And as long, as long as it's like, um, it doesn't get in between my relationship with Jesus, I'm willing to listen, you know, and, um, it doesn't do anything to demote him in my life. I, he needs to be the biggest thing, you know, not even my theology. It's gotta be him and my relationship with him. That's most important. Yeah. That's really good advice. So the, so the, the, the point of the, and I think I'm going to title the, the, the episode is, uh, the link between the pulpit and domestic abuse. So this is where we're going to get to now. And, uh, of course this podcast sort of is an examination of abuse and legalism that takes place within the independent fundamental Baptist movement. And so I sent you some, uh, some clips. You listened to one of, of the audio clips of an independent fundamental Baptist preacher, um, talking about the male female relationships. And, uh, I'll play those now. Too many people worried about, uh, uh, uh, somebody the other day asked me, they, uh, this, this reporter, he said, um, I heard that you, um, you wouldn't, that it'd be a cold day in hell before you get your theology from a woman. He said, don't you kind of think that's demeaning to the genders? I said, ask Adam what he thought about getting his theology from a woman. I said, it damned the whole world. I said, the reason your soul, sorry soul's going to hell is because a woman told Adam what God thinks about things. He says, you're pretty strong about what you believe. I said, not half as strong as what God knows you ought to believe. I wouldn't get my theology from a woman. Adam, mine of mama teaches the kids. Adam, mine of a strong lady and a wise woman and a gracious, godly woman, uh, follows the, takes the lesson from the pastor. Hey, all you listen to me right now. I still believe it'd be a cold day in hell before I get my theology from a woman. I'm a preacher. I wasn't mama called papa sent. No woman ever got me involved in ministry. I didn't follow a woman in the ministry. A woman didn't write this book. Not one woman wrote the scriptures right here. A man wrote the Bible, got it from God. A man hung on the cross. His name is Jesus Christ. And God called a man to lead the church here. Hey, I'm glad I'm a man. So many of you got nervous. So the preacher on the news, praise the Lord. The word of God is being quoted. More than some of you are doing about getting the word of God out. I don't care about being politically correct. I don't care who had hair lips. I don't care if it bothers everybody from the white house or old man sitting in the outhouse. I want to know what's going on in the church house. And I'm the messenger of the church. And what I say is more important than what the news reporter thinks I ought to say. God didn't call him to tell me what to do. And God didn't call anybody else either. You know, if that's arrogant, so be it. The problem is it's the truth in the scriptures here. The Bible says that God created Eve to be Adam's help me. And so tonight, every lady ought to say, it's my desire to help my husband be the man of God that he ought to be. And then I as a lady could be a woman of God. Look at how I can be the best Christian. It's amazing to me at how many problems arise in church because of a female that goes sideways. The husband may be rock solid, but the wife begins to not is it's not on board. She used to be, but now she isn't. She gets a little sour. And then from going sour, she gets a little sassy and salty, but she never would do. And it's all because she's not submissive to the word of God. And then what happens is the husband at home, he's just trying to do right. But she keeps doing this. And before long, he gets tired. Instead of him saying, woman, listen, this is what's right. And this is what we're going to do. What we're going to do, you need to just suck it up and deal with it. He gets tired of fighting. So he says, you know what? Let's just go. You know what happens? He's now become the follower and she's become the leader. Anytime a man follows his wife, he gets in trouble. Can we say Adam and Eve? Can we say Abraham and Sarah? Desire for fleshly women. Look in verse number 12. Now it's, back up, back up. Her feet abide not in her house. I've never seen, I've never seen the ladies that just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. I know we all have busy schedules, but I do believe that a lady, now this lady in this passage of Scripture, we'll see in just a minute. We believe that she is married. She's not in her house. What does it seem like she's doing? Well, we'll see in just a minute. Well, I'll give it to you. It seems like at the end of this passage of Scripture, this is what she does. This is her lifestyle. She seduces men. She's not in her house where she ought to be. She's out seducing men. And it says in verse number 12, now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner like a predator. She lies in wait. You see, I think it's important for our young men to stay away from loud women. It's important for our young men to find the help meat that God intended for them to have. If she is the right kind of lady, listen, if she is the right kind of lady, she'll help you grow spiritually and not bring you down. If she's the right kind of lady, the right kind of lady, you will not marry someone that has a lot of excess baggage, and then you've got to worry about stuff when you go to work. Amen. Amen. So, listening to that kind of stuff, I guess let me go to the first question, and this is the first question we're going to work through. How does this type of preaching, and you've heard probably your own share of, dare I say, abusive preaching on text between the relationships between men and women. How does this type of preaching influence men when it comes to domestic abuse? So, one thing that we know about domestic abuse is that it's sort of fueled by a sense of entitlement, pride and entitlement. And the first clip that I listened to, well, actually, I was only able to hear one, but he was basically, he was preaching that entitlement. You know, and to me, it just flies in the face of what Jesus says, you know, whoever wants to be greatest of all should be the servant of all. And, you know, you shouldn't be like the Gentiles who lord it over. But it sounded very much like lording over to me. And so, but I would say that that sort of teaching, preaching really does fuel an abusive heart. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. And many of the women that I've worked with have had scripture quoted to them. Well, I've had, yeah, I've had my ex-husband quoted scripture to me. I am the head of this house and you will do what I say. So, you know, they use scripture as a weapon and that is not what God intends. Not that kind of a weapon, you know. Yeah, it's to fight the enemy. It's not to oppress people and to keep them in bondage. So, you know, to me, it is, it's also failing to recognize the equal position that we have before God. It's failing to recognize so many things that you, you know, we, I think we talked a little bit about it beforehand, but we're co-heirs of grace, you know, where it talks about that in first Peter. And it says that, you know, we are created equally and, you know, male and female, he created them. When it says God created man in the beginning, God, you know, he created man, that that included woman, you know, male and female, he created them. So, and as you mentioned in Galatians, it talks about in Christ, there is no male nor female, that we have an equal position before the Lord. And so nobody has the right to lord it over one of God's children. Okay, so I'm going to go off script a little bit because my mind is coming up with some questions here. In your experience working with victims or working with domestic abuse situations, let me say it that way. How many would you, have you worked with domestic abuse situations among preachers, among ministry workers? How often would you, or not often, but how common would you say that is? We did a survey called to peace ministries did a survey for our 2018 conference, our fall conference in 2018 asking about 200 survivors of abuse responded. And we asked them, did your husband serve in ministry in any capacity? Almost 30% said they did. Oh, wow. And out of the 30%, 22% had some seminary training. So yes, we see it almost every week at called to peace ministries. So, so that means two thirds, hopefully, well, not necessarily that either. I think that a lot of times you'll find that it says that one in three women, you know, there was a statistic that came out through the American Medical Association back in the 80s. I took part of that survey, you know, and it was about physical domestic abuse only, said one in three women will experience in it within her lifetime. But I don't believe that, you know, I think a lot of times that's men who divorce, remarry, divorce, remarry. So you've got a lot of men doing the perpetrating, re-abusing other women. So you see what I'm saying? I don't think, I'm not saying, I think Chris Moll said, okay, so even if one in four men are abusive, that means 75% of us are good guys. So that's what I'm trying to say here is that I think that most of the people in ministry are good guys, but we do see it. And it's way more common than I think people would want to acknowledge. I get, again, probably once a week calls from people who have been married to somebody in ministry, been people that I truly respected and honored. And then it turned out later found out that they were abusive. So nowadays it doesn't, it doesn't surprise me as much as it used to. And I, and then as soon as like when they come forward with their confession, like, oh, look, this has been abusive and this is what's happened. And all of a sudden my mind starts connecting dots, like, oh, I could have seen, there were some very subtle things that, you know, I, I didn't really recognize at the time as abusive, but then when they came forward and then I heard their whole story and then saw, you know, it had been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I realized, well, yeah, I did have some early warning signs. I just didn't, um, just, you know, you don't want to believe that for one thing, especially when it's somebody you respect, but it definitely happens. And I think that people who are abusive are drawn to positions of power. And so I think the ministry is one of them. I read something the other day that, uh, was giving like the top four professions. And I want to say that police officer and, and ministry were in the top four. Really? Wow. You know, whenever I hear statistics about abuse, I tend to think because number one, I know that they're not able to survey everybody. Number two, the fact that the nature of abuse, uh, people that people or women that's been abused tend to hide it, bury it, bury it, bury it and, and, and not speak out about it. But when I hear statistics on a, on abuse with those two things taken into account, I just sort of imagine, go ahead and automatically equate in my mind, they're, they're always higher, excuse me, whatever numbers they're saying. It's always higher than that. Oh yeah, absolutely. And those statistics were usually including physical abuse only. So if they're using all those other intimidation and, um, more emotional tactics like that, then you can pretty much guarantee they didn't make the survey at all. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this brings to the, this leads to the next question. So sort of the same vein, how then does that type of preaching, if, if, if, if it influences men that way, and then, so you got maybe somebody who's inclined to abuse, here's that uses it as justification and uses the Bible as a weapon against their spouse. Talk about, uh, how does that type of preaching or view of those types of passages influence the women in domestic abuse? Well, it makes them feel trapped. It makes them feel God is against them. Um, one thing that when I finally came out of domestic abuse myself, I realized that somewhere along the line, I thought God cared more about my marriage than my life. I thought he was unfair. I wouldn't have, I would have never, ever voiced that. But in my heart, I'm going, it's not fair. You want me to submit to this abusive man? You want, you know, I can't make it work. I want to make it work. I don't believe in divorce, you know? And I just started thinking God was unfair. And I see that with so many of the women that we work with. I think that domestic violence does two things to victims. It destroys their relationship with God. It, it destroys their view of God. And they see him as harsh and demanding instead of just like their abuser. They see their, see God like they see their abuser. Harsh and demanding. And then the second thing it does is that it destroys their, their view of themselves. They don't believe that they're worthy of God's love. They can't even receive his grace. And so those are the two things that we do at Cult of Peace Ministries in our support groups. We work on those two major categories. We've got to restore the relationship to God to help them know that he's, he's the lover of their souls, that he is gracious and merciful. Most of them come out, if they've come out of a background like that, they come out feeling so condemned. They feel like they're, they're second class citizens because they've gone through a divorce maybe. I know I felt that way. And, you know, even going to seminary, I had to write an essay on why I thought God could use me as a divorce person in order to get into the seminary. And I said, well, I think because of my divorce, I know God more than I have ever known him. I mean, in a deeper way than I have ever known him. It was because of what I went through that built my relationship with him that I want to do this ministry. So that was how I answered and they let me in. I'm sorry. My mind is just racing with that question. I mean, it's not everybody got some kind of thing. I mean, I don't know. I think that the divorce has become the scarlet letter of the, this, this age of, of the church culture. Oh, amen. I used to think I should walk around with a scarlet D on my chest. Because even in my classes, they would say such terrible, I mean, they would say such judgmental things about people who were divorced. There was a whole discussion about people who divorced people being in ministry one day in class. And it didn't go well. I was just sitting there feeling like a little piece, like a peon that I could never do ministry after that class. You know, the Lord was starting to show me, you know what? I use broken vessels. That's what I do. That's my specialty. Yeah. I mean, look at the New Testament apostles. I mean, their rap sheet is probably a little bit worse than divorce. Yeah. And, well, yeah, but what they would say is, oh, if you divorce before you knew Jesus, it's okay. But if you divorce after you knew Jesus, then you can't minister. That's what they would say. I mean, in fact, I had a church. That was their policy. So if somebody was divorced prior to being, you know, saved, they could be on staff at the church. But if they got a divorce after being saved, you see, that doesn't take into account that it takes two people to make a marriage. You know, that's it. That's what I hated divorce. Wouldn't didn't want to do it. And I kept thinking, if I just do this, do one more thing, then I can save the marriage. But it takes two people. Both parties have to be willing. I mean, God himself was not able to get his own, his bride, Israel, to stop cheating on him, right? So he gave her a writ of divorce. And so that shows you it can be a one-sided. One person can destroy a marriage. Yeah. When I told you before that I had done a five-part series here at our church on Divorce and Remarriage, when I finished it, a guy in our church asked me, he wanted to ask me a question because in the, he was at a previous church and his testimony was he was, you know, really rough. His wife had gotten in the church and, you know, the church had prayed for his salvation. You know, he was, you know, drunk, all this, you know, just the classic story of the rough husband. And, you know, they prayed and they prayed for him to get saved and he got saved. And then he turned his, I mean, it was a radical change. And then he started finding places in the church to serve. And then it was sort of, the dynamic was weird. It switched and his wife abandoned him. She left him. And she walked away. Divorce happened. And the pastor told him to step down from, you know, he ran a bus that picked up children from church. And he said he couldn't do it anymore. And I said, he said, where do you, what do you think about that? And I said, well, I would have asked you, do you feel like you need to take a break because you may need to heal? I said, but there was nothing that took place that would have caused you that you couldn't pick people up and bring them to church. Yeah, I know. It's just, it's crazy. We have so many women who are invited to step out of ministry when they're going through abuse. And yet, so many times, the abusers are not removed from ministry. That's what's always been mind-boggling to me. There really tends to be a double standard in the church a lot. So I wrote this question down earlier when you were talking about your story. And you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, because this just sort of popped in my mind. Because I haven't, maybe I missed it. But as I was going through your book, I never really saw this talked about. But what was it, why did you have such a strong feeling? I mean, what was the influence in you that you, divorce was just the worst thing in the world for you that kept, you know, sort of kept you in the situation that you were in? You said repeatedly that, you know, you went to that pastor and he gave you a card to a divorce attorney. And you thought, what in the world? But why did you have such strong feelings about that subject? You know, it took me a while to figure that out, actually. When we went out to that program in Omaha, the guy says, you know, I don't know, they had a bunch of different experts talking about different things. And he was saying that a lot of times, you know, we're dysfunctional. That was the big word back then, because of things that we've told us, other people have told us or we've told ourselves. And so I thought, well, I can't figure out what my thing is. Probably a month later, when things were getting so deadly that I thought that he was surely going to kill me. And I realized, I'm like, why am I so dead set against leaving? Why won't I get out? I know part of it was my Christian training, you know, because I listen to focus on the family every day. And focus on the family really, you know, they focus on marriage. And so I had listened to those things and I had just really been a devotee in that way. But the other thing was, my parents had divorced when I was a teenager and it devastated me. And my dad just refused to go to counseling. And I thought, wow, I will never divorce because people who divorce just don't try hard enough. That was the life commandment that I told myself that had kept me, you know, staying way longer than I probably should have. To the point that it was really detrimental to me and to my children. So I think that was it for me. I just didn't, you know, I thought if I could just do one more thing, if I could just do this, you know, and I absolutely exhausted every avenue of help that I could, you know, try to find and nothing helped. So I finally was just left with the same conclusion that my pastor, you know, that the pastor who had given me the card came to there. I don't know what to do. So, so, so, so it was more of a, of a personal tie that, that really kept you there more so than a biblical teaching or, or a biblical teaching that was. I think it was, I think it was a combination of both. One reinforced the other. Because again, seriously, I was very much, I do think maybe that's where the, you know, we talk about the divorce and marriage or marriage being the idol of the 20th, 21st century. I think that as I would listen to focus on the family and they would, they would tell stories of people who were at the brink of divorce and how they went to this workshop and it to save their marriage. And, you know, and that children do better if they are with their original parents. So I heard all of that and thought I've got, you know, I've got to save this marriage for the sake of my children. When looking back, what it did to my children was devastating. You know, my kids to this day still have fallout from what happened, you know, just growing up and, and just all the things that they saw, they heard. Trauma actually looks very much like the symptoms of ADHD. Both of my girls were diagnosed with ADHD. And now looking back, I realized that was trauma. I mean, I had PTSD terribly for about a year, year and a half to, I don't know. And I was healed basically through meditating on scripture. And I didn't even realize how my healing came until later on. And I started doing counseling and somebody said, well, I'm quoting scripture and it's not working. And I didn't realize what I was doing was really meditating on scripture, which will actually access those traumatized parts of the brain that logic cannot reach. Yeah, that's, that's really good. And, and, you know, that's, that's also, I try to teach that to our people is just basic sanctification process. You know, you can't just sit here and, and, you know, have a verse. You need to really meditate and let that sink down and sink down and grab root in your life. Yeah, yes, yeah. Okay, so if, let's say that somebody's listening to this and sort of works in the ministry or is a pastor or something like that. And they're sort of having an experience like I did a couple of months ago, listening to you teaching and thinking, whoa, you know, I, I was so uninformed about this subject. What would you, what kind of advice would you give to church, churches, church ministry workers, or maybe even advocates concerning this? About domestic abuse? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I would say, listen, um, usually if somebody comes up and shares any part of a story with you that might sound harsh. If somebody shares with you that somebody, my husband's angry, that they, you get the feeling that they are walking on eggshells, be willing to listen. Um, I think it's so important to listen. And I also think it's really important to believe I've seen, um, scores and scores and scores of women come forward, tell their pastor the story. And the pastor mishandled it by number one, maybe they did believe her at first, but then they would go and immediately confront the husband, which put her in danger. So don't do that. Um, but then the husband would give the counter story and then they would say, well, I had a pastor say, well, we, it's just too hard to know who's telling the truth. So basically they, they either back out and don't want to get involved or secondly, they don't believe her because she doesn't seem as put together as him. She's very stressed and strained and very emotional and he's calm, cool and collected. So I would say, believe her. Um, they, I've had people say, well, how do you know that she's not making it up? Why would somebody make this up? What does she have to gain from that? Number one, number two is they've done studies on false claims of domestic abuse and it comes in somewhere between three and 5%. And so, um, but yet I think that, especially when I started doing this work in the late nineties and early two thousands, about a hundred percent of the women who came forward and started speaking and talking about the abuse. Um, we're not believed. I have a blog post called why nobody believes the victim. So you can go check that out, but, um, believe her and then do not direct her. Don't tell her what to do. And I'm saying her because majority of these cases will be, um, females. Um, don't tell her what to do. Don't try to direct her. Don't tell her she needs to stay. Don't tell her she needs to go. Just give her options. Connect her with a domestic violence advocate. If you can call to peace has domestic violence advocates that we're training. And they're in different locations across the United States and Canada. Um, just reach out to us if you need help. It's really important because domestic violence is such a tricky issue. I would recommend that you bring in somebody who's got experience because in this kind of situation, somebody could end up dead. Even if there's never been physical violence, and that's something that we really want to try to, um, bring home to pastors to help them understand that just because there hasn't been physical violence yet. And it could be that she's not telling you about it too. They, what they'll do is tell you a little bit. I always tell people what you see is the tip of the iceberg and then 90% is under the water. They're waiting to see if they can trust you with their story. And what is Chris Moll's quote about everybody, nobody's telling you the truth in this situation? Can you, can you tell him, tell that? Yes. Well, the reason is we're scared to tell the truth. We, I mean, I told you, I lied on that survey that asked if I'd been abused because I thought somebody was going to come and try to do something about it. You know, that they would try to intervene. And I didn't, I didn't want to get him in trouble. So I lied for him. It was not just for me, you know, not to protect me, but I was lying to protect him. You know, he made a lot of money and had a position in the community. So I didn't want to just tell anybody about it. Um, it wasn't just because of that either. You know, I didn't even tell my family cause I wanted them to like him. Cause they, I wanted them to see the good guy that was, that would show up every now and then. And instead of the, the monster that we got to see almost every day. So, um, we do lie. We lie a lot. I mean, I think there's a passage in my book that says something like when you live with domestic violence, you live with lies, you tell lies, you believe lies. Um, it's, and of course abusers are notorious for lying. I had a woman in the support group one night. She said, lying is my husband's first language. English is his second. And I'm like, that's really good. Um, I could just go on and on and tell you about that. But again, I'm going to go off script here because I've got a couple of things coming to my mind, I guess, because I live in a very, and the last thing that I, I refuse to do, you get into the political trost. Uh, cause that's not my, I don't, I don't want to do that, but I live in a very right wing, uh, atmosphere. And so I hear a lot of these. So here's, here's a couple of three common, uh, problems, misconceptions, responses. I think that I hear whenever, whenever you talk about these things, number one is, um, you know, people, right wing conservative type of people in the South shudder because of political reasons, because of things that were in the news of believe women. All right. Again, that's a con. That's something that we have to break ourselves up. The other one is, and I hear this all the time, just in common, whenever you hear a story in the news, people say, well, why don't they just leave? Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just talk about that one for a minute. Um, I love it. I want to say is Paulison, David Paulison, who's a biblical counselor that says no great theological concept ever included the, uh, started with why don't you just, just, there is no just. So when it comes to domestic violence, there is no easy way. If they stay, it will be extremely hard in their lives can be in more and more danger daily on a daily basis. And they, their children, it will affect their health. It will affect so many things. Kids who grew up with domestic violence have awful symptoms. Like they're more likely to become involved with the penal system, more likely to become sexually promiscuous, more likely to drop out of school, more likely to use drugs, all these things. I mean, and have a lifespan that's about 20 years shorter because they, uh, the physical impacts of stress on the body. So they're, they're more likely to suffer from depression and become suicidal, things like that. So anyway. Wow. Okay. Okay. And the other, so that's, if they stay, if they leave. Oh yeah. And if they leave, then, um, they might be stalked. The, a lot of times the abusers will start using the children as pawns. And, um, uh, I have a woman who is staying with an abusive man. It was his third marriage and he got full custody of his children with the first two marriages because he's very well educated, very well spoken. And he has a lot of money. She doesn't have a lot of money to fight him. So she's staying. And it's, it's horrible. Um, so either way, you know, she knows if I leave, I'm not, I'm not as well spoken. I'm not, I don't have the money. I don't have the resources. I'm going to stay. And I also know, we know that the courts believe in 50, 50 custody. Unless somebody is an ex murderer, they could have already been convicted of domestic violence, but the courts are going to give the children 50, 50 access to each parent. Pretty much. That's the way they do it in most places. And so knowing that they don't, they want to protect their children. So they will stay, um, especially when they have children. Yeah. And I've also heard you tell stories about, uh, a lot of times with some of these abusers are so manipulative, been that way for so long that many of these women, they don't know what they, they don't know how to open up a bank account. And that's not saying, you know, uh, knock against them. They've just, you know, they've controlled that area of their life. They wouldn't know what to do. Right. They don't have any access to their finances. So they don't know that they could, could be financially independent because about 90% of domestic abuse includes financial abuse. So yes, um, there's, there's a multitude of reasons why they don't just leave. Right. But you know, there are, um, anyway, they're sorry. I don't know where I was going with that either. Yeah, I know. I get some of these things. I'm like, Oh, this would be good for people to hear. So I'm, you know, I'm coming up with these questions, but I think, uh, I think that, that, that, well, this is one thing that I think we probably should have established. Uh, you might've said it, but we really didn't hit it. And that is when we're talking about, um, domestic abuse and the marriage relationship, uh, people hear us throw around, you know, getting her to safety or, you know, maybe think that we're talking too much about divorce. But the common problem and Chris moles, I thought was the first I heard talk about this and I thought it was fantastic was domestic abuse is not a marriage issue. So that's right. Can you speak to that real quick? Absolutely. Um, finally, I started saying, you know, if you have somebody who's using drugs to say, you've got a heroin addict and you bring him in for counseling and you say, uh, you bring the wife in with him and say, what is it you're doing? That's causing him to be a heroin addict. That's kind of what it looks like when you do, when you counsel domestic abuse, because it's a completely other than a marriage problem is when you have an exchange going on, when you actually have some, um, equality to some degree, equality in value. When one person is not lording it over, when somebody has become oppressed, then they are no longer a partner. So a marriage is supposed to be a partnership. So you can work on the issues that have to do with the partnership. But, um, again, you don't have a partnership. You've got somebody else who's in charge, who is, is pretty much just keeping somebody under their thumb. And, uh, that is not a marriage problem. That is, you've got to work on those issues first, the control. Um, and it's, and people think it's an anger problem. He's also got a blog post that says, um, it's not an anger problem. And they use anger to get what they want. And so you also have to work with, usually with the wife too, to help her know how he, even to stand up and have an opinion again. Because most of the time we're not allowed to have an opinion. I was not allowed to have an opinion. I find that the women who are coming out of these situations, they don't know what they like or what they want. Um, they have to rediscover who God made them to be. You know, my, uh, ex did not like short hair, so I would never have short hair. So I cut my hair all off. You know, finally about a year later, I'm like, wait a minute. It was him that didn't like short hair. I decided I don't like short hair much on me either, but it needed to be my decision. Right. Right. And I find these ladies, they really do have difficulty making decisions because they have been, um, so controlled for so long. When somebody else is controlling you, then how are you? I mean, you know, other than, I don't know, there's just no way that you're going to be able to treat it like a marital problem and get anywhere with it. So, and so maybe a pastor is saying, okay, if this guy is this bad at home, wouldn't we see this in some type of everyday life? Right. And the answer to that is absolutely not. They are good. They are master manipulators. And, um, yeah, it's, I have seen people that just seemed wonderful. I mean, I even, I did an interview with Danny Akin, who's the president of the seminary. He's here. He said, joy. He said, I've known people. He said that they just seemed like they were the most godly, the most wonderful people. And he said, and then to go come to find out later on that at home, it was a living hell. And so I think that that's, um, something that I, that is pretty common with these situations. It's not an unusual thing. Um, because, you know, it's easy to act, you know, in front of other people, but to, to, to keep up that act for 24 hours a day, it's the people that are at home who live with them, who get to see the real person. And the family learns to act as well. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and to cover for them for many reasons. So I want to go back to where you were talking about, um, you know, what, whether or not to believe because of in the political environment, because it's the me too movement. I will say that, um, maybe I shouldn't. No, go ahead. I want you to. Well, I was thinking that, um, yes, I think that, that every now and then, especially, um, um, in, in the news and especially during political years, there may be somebody who is making up a story, but you can usually tell there are people who are expert witnesses who can tell the elements of a true story and whether somebody is telling the truth. So, um, basically if you don't know who, whether or not you should believe you can bring in an advocate or have somebody who has expertise in domestic abuse, because for those of us who understand it, when, or especially sexual abuse, um, that's the one I think that you're going to might find more false claims, um, in, in cases like that, but, um, uh, an expert in domestic violence and in, you know, uh, sexual abuse can look at us or hear a story and tell you whether or not it's genuine. And so that's, uh, one thing that I think that we need to keep in mind is that first of all, um, false reports are very, very rare. And I would just say, believe rather than not believe. And then if, if they're not telling the truth, if you've got an expert involved, it will become very apparent very quickly. Yeah. So, well, I think too, you know, okay. So in both sexual and domestic abuse, false reports are rare. Um, and I think there's even FBI statistics on sexual abuse claims that are false or they're just rare. But I think the problem is, especially in a conservative mindset is that we have, um, trained our mind that that's the first thing we go to when we hear it. That's the first reaction. Oh, well, that's right. Especially if it's somebody that we're inclined to like. Mm-hmm. Yes. I remember, I know this is off the domestic abuse topic, but I remember when the Bill Cosby situation happened and for, I mean, that thing went on for so long before they actually did something legally to him. But I remember just hearing so many people every time another one came out. Oh, can you believe these women? Can you believe that? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know. And that's the whole thing is because we think they're such great guys because they're great actors. But it's really a slap in the face to our theology, especially if we believe in the depravity of man. And because, I mean, if, if, if theology, if our theology should instruct us at anything, it should be that when we hear this, we should probably think probably because man is inherently sinful. We have that, we have that nature. Right. And I love it. Jesus talks about wolves in sheep's clothing, and that means they look like sheep, right? They look like us. They talk like us, but they're not. Angels of light. Right. Exactly. There you go. Joy, thank you so much for, for taking the time. Really, this means a lot to me. And I think that everything that you've, you've said this morning is going to really, I really believe that somebody is going to be helped by it. And I'd like for you to close with maybe some advice, encouragement to somebody, maybe somebody that is listening to this, a lady may be listening to this and she's, she's living it. And what could you say to them? I think that the first thing I would say is that God loves you more than he loves your marriage. He loves you so much and that he hates, hates, hates abuse. Okay. He does, he, this is not God's design for your life. And he is calling you from bondage to peace. I believe that with all my heart. How that looks is different for every person. Um, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to get a divorce, but if you even want to try to save a marriage, it takes some real expert help. So, um, I think that there's a, uh, video on our, um, the call to peace, um, ministries website. Will you be posting that link? Maybe. Yes, ma'am. When I did with Chris Mould that call talks about, um, you know, can an abusive person change and what would that change look like? And it's going to involve, uh, experts who know how to deal with it because the reason you need experts in this is not because, um, you know, well, it is because marital counseling doesn't work. So people who've been trained in marital counseling are not going to be able to help with this. But the second thing is that, because what we just mentioned, abusers are so manipulative, you know, and I think that you have to have been fooled by them a few times yourself to be really good at catching it in the, in the future. So, um, I've been doing this a long time and in the beginning I got fooled by false repentance. So having somebody walk alongside you who can walk you through the process to see, um, you know, if it's possible that, um, you know, God can change, uh, somebody and, and that the marriage could possibly be saved. It is rare. It's more rare for it not to be saved. Um, that there are things that you can learn about ways to respond that can keep you safer in the home. So we have an online support group with Call to Peace Ministries, um, through Facebook right now. So if you're interested in that, and we also have some that we're doing through Zoom across the nation, um, you can reach out to us at Call to Peace, uh, why, excuse me, info at called to peace.org. And that's just T-O, um, Call to Peace. And, um, we would, uh, we can try to connect you with a support group because you need support and you need somebody who really knows what you're going through. If you heard my story before, um, I couldn't find anybody who understood. And so you will find people who understand what you're going through and who won't judge you or try to tell you what to do. We'll just be there to support you. And to point you to the one who loves you most and, um, and, and really is calling you to peace. Wonderful. Wonderful. And, uh, and I want to encourage everybody, uh, go, uh, get her book called to peace. Uh, you can find it, uh, at their website called to peace.org. Right. And, and, uh, and on Amazon, I've had, I have one chapter left to finish it. Um, but I highly, highly recommend it. Visit the website. If you are interested in, um, advocacy training, uh, joy also has many resources for you on, uh, on their website. And, you know, I think, I feel like we should do this because we've, we've mentioned him so much and let's give a shout out to Chris Moles and, uh, and his stuff, uh, called to peace, uh, his website is called to peace.org. Correct. No, no, no, that's true. Uh, his is peace works. Peace works. Sorry. Well, his website is chrismoles.org and then he has a peace. Yeah. And, and peace works university has a whole lot of really great information for pastors and, uh, church leaders. In fact, we have a conference coming up on August the 27th. We have rescheduled it twice. It's actually a workshop for pastors and church leaders on developing a church policy for domestic abuse and, uh, and building a team. And that's August the 27th. It will be, um, we have very limited access to people who live. Here in the Raleigh area, but will be also, um, shared via zoom. So it will be online and you can ask your questions. And if you don't have a policy for your church, you're, you're more likely to do more harm than good. So we, I keep trying to close up, but I keep coming up with more questions to ask you. I was going to add, okay. So this just popped in my mind, uh, for maybe pastors or, or ministry workers, uh, that may say, well, that's, that's great, but I've never really seen an actual case. Why do I need to get to, uh, how, how common is this in our country that you need to be prepared? Oh, it is so common. And the reason you haven't seen a case is maybe they don't trust you to tell you. When I started telling my story, people started coming out of the woodwork. Um, and I've had other, we've had other churches who started talking about it and there were people coming to them left and right. I remember, you know, thinking of the statistic, I remember sitting, um, after coming out of the abuse and knowing the statistic that at least, at least one in four in our churches have been experienced domestic abuse. I was sitting in the back of the church and I looked at the road beside me and we were pretty much spot on one in four, um, of the women that were sitting back there had been through domestic abuse. So it is common. It is happening. There's no doubt about it. If they're not telling you, it's because they don't feel safe in approaching you to tell you that's, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Great. All right. Thank you guys so much for listening to the episode. And if you enjoyed the podcast, please, uh, uh, help me out, share it and, uh, give it a rating or review. You can follow the podcast on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And, uh, until next time guys to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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