Bonus Episode: Interview w/ Bryan Townsend

This is the For Freedom Podcast. This podcast exists to bring to light the legalism and abuse in the independent fundamental Baptist movement and to encourage believers to grow in grace through the scriptures. Now, here's your host, John Hollifield. Hey everybody and welcome to the For Freedom Podcast. I am your host, John Hollifield, and I'm excited today. This is a special bonus episode. It is an interview that I have done with Brian Townsend. Now, when I did my interview on the Preacher Voice Podcast with Eric Swarczynski several months back, Brian was one of the first people that sort of reached out and connected with me and we related with a couple of things and then became friends on social media. And I've enjoyed his social media presence. He's just an encouraging, joyful guy to talk to. And so whenever I was starting this podcast, I was really wanting to get with him and have his perspective on this podcast. So I was very excited about interviewing him. He is the pastor of Canvas Church in Athens, Georgia. And so he grew up in ministry. He had a ministry family. And so we had a good time. It was a great interview. Had some fun. So I hope you enjoy it. Here is the interview with Brian Townsend. All right, Brian. I'm with Brian Townsend. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast here today. And you are a pastor at Canvas Church in Athens, Georgia, right close to Atlanta. And go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit and tell us a little bit about you. Well, hey, John, I appreciate you having me on. Thank you for the chance to spend some time with you here today. And I'll just tell you a little bit about myself. I don't have a lot to brag on. So this will be a short introduction. My name is Brian Townsend. I am a pastor, like you said, close to Atlanta, our east of Atlanta in the college town named Athens. Go Dawgs. And I've lived here for about eight years now. I've been pastoring this church since 2013. Moved here in 2012, started pastoring it in 2013. Went through a rebrand with the church. It was New Haven Baptist Church up until 2017. And we really kind of replanted that church for a multitude of reasons I won't go into and renamed it Canvas. And I have a four-year-old little girl named Eliana Rachel. And she is... I'm a single parent. And have a four-year-old little girl that I love so dearly. And she's my world. And I love the Lord. I love church history. I'm in graduate school for theology, church studies right now. And 35 years young. So that's about all there is on the intro. So... Yeah. Well, anybody that follows you on social media, it's... And that's what I absolutely enjoy. You're my favorite thing to go to. It really brings a smile to your face. Your posts are so encouraging. And the best part about Brian is Eliana. I've just got to say it. Hey, dude. I'm with you, man. I'm with you. She... She's real catty. You know, I've been a single parent since she was one. And so if we're going through the Chick-fil-A drive-through and she sees me talk to another woman that's, you know, obviously, she's very territorial and catty over me. She'll say, Daddy, that girl was not pretty. You can only have one girlfriend. Only me. No other girls are pretty. No, Daddy. And she'll... If I do go out with a woman once or twice, she'll run her off as quick as she can. Oh, my God. She's a guard dog, man. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Brian actually has some history with the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement, growing up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist churches, and now has sort of come out of that. So what I want to do before... We have a subject I want to talk about. Before we get into that, Brian, why don't you take a little bit of time and tell your story as it goes with the Independent Fundamental Baptist churches and how you got to where you are today? Well, so I do want to start here and say that I am not here to bash every single person that's not an Independent Baptist. You know, there are many good people that go to Independent Fundamental Baptist churches, just like there are good people in every part of the world. And I do believe that there are a lot of good people. And so I'm not here to just shoot bullets at people. I'm here to just talk about bad theology primarily, you know, within some. Is that all right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in Charleston, West Virginia. And if you have ever been to West Virginia, you know that when you're there, you are definitely nowhere else. And you have to have been there to understand that. Yes. The people here, it is like its own deal. And I grew up and went to two different Bible colleges. And both were, you know, pretty traditional Independent Baptist colleges. One was very strict. One was actually more mellow and really where I kind of grew into some things. And I came out at 22 out of school and kind of bounced around the business world for a couple years and worked for a Catholic Italian attorney for three or four years being a legal book keeper. I've always been a mathematician and I love math. And so I worked for him and saw a site. My first real experience after Bible school was in the business world. And I learned that not everybody adheres to Independent Baptist Theology and learned that. And so I learned a lot from them. I learned a lot from that law office and finally went into ministry when I was 23 or four. And worked in an independent Baptist church for a while. Good people. And I just grew to the point where I don't want to say that. I don't want to make it sound elitist like I'm better than that because I'm not. But I grew to a place where I just was kind of, I felt like there was more to the picture than the window of life I had been exposed to through. And that's not to talk bad about my family. That's not to talk bad about this. But I just read the Bible and thought there was maybe a little bit more to faith than what I had seen. And so I started exploring and reading. And I remember in 2011, I had just taken my first church. And 26 knew everything and was going to show everybody in the world how to do it, you know. And I listened to my first Carrie Jobes song. And this is how old it was of her singing Revelation song. She had a corded microphone in the song. And it had the mic cover, you know, back in the 70s, the bright red or bright orange or bright yellow mic covers. She was singing into one of those. And so I don't even know how old that video was. But I began thinking and watching them and I guess passion then and saw just anointed singing and saw God moving in a crowd of people that looked radically different than what I did. Right. And became very intrigued by it. And then just through the years, through a long journey, have led me to where I am today, where I'm probably Baptist in my faith. I'm just not angry about it. You know, I'm not. And I don't mean angry about it like, I just, I don't. I don't know what I'm trying to say here. It's just, it's just, it's, and I'm not saying that my, that my church has grown up angry. I'm not saying that. But you, you look at, for example, here's what I'm saying. If somebody's listening to your podcast, they're probably listening to IFB preacher clips. Right. And I'm not, I didn't grow up like that so much is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. So that's me. That's where I'm at today. Okay. Okay. So the, there is a wing of the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Okay. Okay. Most people like you, you just sort of alluded to most people, I think when they think independent fundamental Baptist or most people that's even had experiences in the independent fundamental Baptist church think the Hiles type. Yeah, absolutely. Or those that sprung off of those, you got North Valley and Jack Treber in those, and you got, you know, different, you know, where there's Crown and Clarence Sexton that type, but they're very, very conservative. Yeah. Very, you know, reserved. But, uh, I grew up, uh, and, and you were exposed to a, it is independent. And, you know, I've heard several preachers within that claim independent fundamental Baptist, but, uh, the Southern wing of the camp meeting style of the IFB. And, uh, so explain a little bit about what that movement looks like. You, you did say it was a little bit more mellow. So, so explain. Depending on where you are, it's a little more mellow. Um, so I grew up, um, listening to preachers like Harry Nix, um, who's an evangelist. He's, I think he's retired now, but that was the guy that we, um, he came to preach in our little mountain church in West Virginia. And we just fell in love with him and always thought him to be a good man. But, uh, so the camp meeting crowd, which, you know, you have is, is typical here in the South. You have the famous Greer Baptist camp meeting in the upstate South Carolina area, um, where they're, they have perfectly air conditioned buildings all around, but choose to go sit out under a tabernacle when it's 117 degrees and sweat all their body weight off. Um, and it's fine, you know, man, like if y'all want to have the tent, go ahead. I like air conditioning. Say amen, John. Yeah. But so, so tents are for when you go camping, not for sitting out four hours. That's right. That's right. Um, but, uh, you have your camp meeting crowd and, um, typically it's a different brand than Hiles or Treber. Um, I'll say this, they have a lot of passion. They have a lot of passion. And, uh, that's one of the greatest lessons I learned from, from that is, is passion. Now I think passion at times can be misdirected, um, but that's not in a camp meeting or a Baptist. I think people across all walks of life can have their passion misdirected. Um, it's my, my experience though. And so you have, you know, it's very, um, it's its own deal. Certainly it's, um, conservative. It's, um, very good at, uh, I don't know if I want to say good at this. Um, they, they, they, um, traditionally know how, and I've done this like, cause it's where I came from, um, can have very exciting worship services. Um, very exciting. Now, um, discipleship is not always emphasized. Um, camp meeting is really, you know, they, they called it the shot in the arm, if you will, the adrenaline, the revival. Um, so it's, it's really, um, built around that. And, uh, so that's the, that's, that's really the world I come from, not the house crowd or not the tree were crowd or, but very much the Southern camp meeting wing is what I grew up in. Um, yeah, so I guess maybe some specific differences would be, uh, the dress standards are not really hit on, uh, well, I mean, you, you don't, there's, there's not like a whole big, uh, I never saw a big push for women not to wear pants. No, it's, it's, it's like growing up, we would go to movies, um, PG 13, PG 13 movies, but we, these, which, which are nothing wrong with that. I don't, I typically don't watch rated R movies. Um, anyhow, just because PG 13 is about as far as I'll go. I'm PG 35 now. So PG 13 is as far as I'll go. Um, is where I'm at. So, uh, we went to movies growing up. Music. Yeah. Music and church would be a little bit different, you know? Yeah. Like, like church service would, we would Southern gospel stuff to death, even if it had bad theology. You know, when I was in Bible school, we would sing a song. I've been walking down Damascus road where I carry every burden there. And it was a great beat and it got people fired up, but it said nothing beside, I've been walking down Damascus road. So theology and Southern gospel isn't always, but theology in every venue. I mean, he, you know, in the garden, he walks with me and talks to me. That's not exactly a theological treaties on anything, but there's contemporary music that's shallow. Oh yeah. But I was the biggest Southern gospel fan I think you could ever meet. I mean, those that know me knew I was a Southern gospel junkie. And then when I started reading like theology and systematic theology and growing and this kind of stuff, preaching expositionally at our church, then I'd listen to the new album that would, Brian Freena, she was sorry, I probably shouldn't mention. You're name dropping, son. I would listen to the new album or new album of the new group. I'm like excited about this. And I'm like, that's a terrible song. That's a terrible song. That's a terrible, oh, I can't listen to this. And I can't overstate this, that when we sang in Southern camp meeting churches, we would sing like this. Well, I want to know more. You know, real, real strong. Yeah, the twang, you know, he walks with me and he talks with me. That's how we sang. So the diction and the high church sound that you might get at a lot of places. No, we murdered the King's English weekly. We very much were there. And so you listen to Southern gospel. My mama always wore pants. I remember, you know, we would go swimming with our friends and, you know, you have the mixed bathing thing that you'd go to youth conference and get railed on. And the next week we'd come home and be like, well, that was last week. You know, this is this week. And so we, I mean, we weren't weird. I don't think we were weird by any stretch, but like women didn't wear pants. I mean, men, now it's a church. Now it's a church. You did have the, we do our best. We, men wear ties, cufflinks, you know, women wear dresses with big hair, high heels, you know, it's very much. And, you know, they saw that as giving God your best. Whereas now I see, you know, Jesus, the Bible said the common people received him gladly. He looked like common people. You know, Isaiah 53, there's no beauty that we should desire him. He just looked like normal people. But they saw that as giving God our best. And so church services were Southern Gospel, King James. Yeah, that's where I would go to. Okay. So what's the, what were some of the similarities that you saw in King James only-ism is there? Yes. Um, um, yes. King James only-ism. Um, um, holiness mattered, even though like, even though we didn't, we went to movies. Like I remember I was raised in this and even at a young age, the Lord got ahold of me when I was a young teenager, 12, 13 years old. And I grew up wanting to be a preacher. And, um, we, we were preached holiness too. And so when I went away to Bible college at the first one, um, not in South Carolina, but the first one, um, there were rules, rules, rules. They had better rules than even Jesus had. You know, I mean, it was, it was a lot of rules, but even there, um, I didn't see anything wrong with going to movies and I didn't see anything wrong, but I did say I'm willfully at this school and they've asked, you know, I knew going in that they had rules. And if I'm here, I'm going to abide by him. And so even though I didn't agree with, you couldn't go off campus in a pair of blue jeans, you could, you know, stuff like that. I abided by it because it was my conviction that, um, I'm coming to the school and they have rules. And even though I didn't agree with them. So, um, holiness did matter and being a good person and, um, trying to treat people the right way. Um, and now again, that had its flaws like anything, but that's probably, you know, similarities. I would guess King James, um, would you say that it was, uh, personality driven? Yes. I would a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And pastoral authority in the churches? Most, most, um, yeah, most. I would certainly say that. Now, again, you can't say a hundred percent of the time, but a large percentage of the churches in the Southeast, you know, in the camp meeting wing are very much, um, personality driven. I mean, you, you have that over and over again and not all the big personalities were bad, but there were some big personalities that were rotten eggs, certainly. Mm-hmm. And so that leads me to sort of, I think a crossover, not a major crossover, because certainly it's more emphasized in the camp meeting wing than it is. It may be a house church, but you hear this terminology used and that is, uh, the, the old past thing. So this, let me, before we transition to the old past, sorry, I'm looking at my notes and I feel like I'm. Where are you at? Are you on note number five or down further? Yeah. Let's go to number five. What are some of the flaws or problems that you see in that section of the IFB? In that section, meaning the camp meeting crowd? Camp meeting crowd. Or if it, you know, well, let's do this. You have exposure to really both. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Did you ever go to pastor school? No, I went to youth conference when I was a young child. So you've been up there. You've been up there. Yeah. Okay. So let's do that. Let's, let's give sort of both, maybe try to, to give some, you know, be specific. Like, yeah, I get what you're saying, dude. This is a flaw here, but this is a flaw in the overall thing. Um, I'll say in my notes, John, I just prepared for flaws within the broad term of independent Baptist. So, so I'll shoot down this list. Okay. Uh, the first one I would say is, and again, you can't make this statement about everybody, but I think that we have a very, at times, um, within independent Baptist churches is we have very shallow preaching. Absolutely. I think we, I think we have, you know, we hear this cool story or we come up with this idea and then we go to the Bible and find a proof text for the cool idea that we had and build a sermon around that rather than letting our scripture time reading drive the heart of preaching. You know, um, I think that if I, I've heard some really good preaching and I've heard some really bad preaching and the shallow preaching, you know, of just some of the ridiculous, I mean, go on IFB preacher clips for 30 seconds and you'll see a bunch of it. Yeah. And I think preacher clips does get a conglomerate of all the wins. Yeah, they do. You've seen preachers from the campaign side. You've seen preachers from houses. You've seen preachers from the Rutmanite crowd. Yeah. It, it, it really is. It, that encompasses all of it. Yeah. It's, it's shallow. Um, I think, and I think that kind of bleeds into my next flaw is that preaching at times is very opinionated rather than scriptural. I think that it's not gospel interoriented. I think at times you see, um, you see people from the pulpit call out people within the church publicly. And I, like I never, if I have a problem with someone that I'm pastoring, I never use the pulpit to call them out. It's always privately, you know, and you've seen people, preachers get up and use it to vindicate themselves and use it to that stuff. But the second thing, uh, flaw that I've seen firsthand is that just typically there are very low standards for someone to become a pastor. Let me explain what I mean by that. Early America, you know, we're talking in the days of the 13 colonies and very early, um, before the expansion westward happened, there were super high standards to be a member of the clergy. I mean, you had to be educated at one of the schools that, or they wouldn't license you. Well, then westward, the expansion came and people were moving westward at an alarming rate and there were no churches. So some of your denominations sent pastors that were air quotes, untrained westward and were not equipped. And so some of the churches, you know, obviously we're not as theologically sound as back in the East. Um, but so for example, I took my first church in 2010, the fall of 2010. I've been pastoring exactly 10 years this month. No, no, no, this fall, excuse me. And these were good people. They did not ask me for one reference. They did not ask me for a statement of faith. They did not do a background check. They basically let me become their pastor on my word of who I was and the fact that I can preach a decent sermon behind the pulpit. And, you know, that has happened all too often. And, um, sometimes that works out, but more often than not, that goes terribly wrong. Um, you have, you have, and I'm not going to name names here, but you have people that get saved in, in September and preachers are preaching. These same guys 60 days later are preaching revivals after they get saved. Um, you, you have, you have no, you know, Paul, we first read about getting saved in Acts 10 and we don't even read about him until Acts 13 and even, or yeah, Acts 9, 10. And then, so there was a period that Paul sat and he was learned and he was trained, but the relations, he mentions that he spent three years in Arabia. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you have these guys now that, so, so John, here's a, here's a thing. I'm a huge fan of the, of the ancient Christian church, you know, up until 500 AD, 80, 500, excuse me, when the really Western empire falls and crumbles. And I'm a huge fan of that era. I love studying that. And, um, here's something I thought was noteworthy as I've been studying. Um, so, you know, we have an Acts, I think it's seven, eight, eight, the Ethiopian unit gets saved and Paul, and, uh, Philip baptizes them. I think I'm telling that right in water right there, but the early church, and we're talking the church that was in persecution. Um, they had a process, as you know, uh, called catechism where someone would have, before they would let someone get baptized, they would make them go through a thorough examination of were they truly a Christian. You have to remember, these are the Christians that are getting eaten alive by, by, by sharks, by animals. They're getting beat to death. They're being trampled upon and the early church placed the high emphasis on before you back get baptized to be identified with Christ's death. We're going to make sure that your faith is real and they would require them. Sometimes the process of catechism would last two to three years before they'd even baptize somebody. And, you know, they wouldn't have let somebody even get baptized sometime. And they'd only baptize on Easter Sunday morning, often early. Well, so the early church would make people wait two to three years to get baptized. And so many churches today let people get saved. And then two months later, they're preaching revivals. You know, the, the early church, you have years to get baptized. And now we're not requiring any theological training. Although I don't believe you have to go to school to be a preacher. But there needs to be a period of learning, of waiting, of growing. And you have guys now that are getting saved and preaching and pastoring churches less than a year later. And, you know, first Timothy, not a novice, less being lifted up. He followed him to the snare and condemnation of the devil. And, and so we have very low processes, I think for clergy. I think that you can just, if you're the good old boy, you can. So you have any comments there? Did you go to, did you have an ordination? I did. Council? Okay. I did. How my ordination council was. All right. So this was in 09, 2009. Okay. Okay. They were trying to ordain, I think, 11 or 12 guys that were graduating to college. Yeah. Had all of us in there. And then they had like all of their deacons. And so we were, I was built up by some people that I knew that said ordination councils, they grill you. So I'm expecting this, right? This is what happens. We go in there before we go in there. The, the, the, the pastor who was over the whole thing meets with all the guys and says, here's what we're going to do. You're going to go in there and sit down. I'm going to call you one by one. You're going to go up there and you're going to say that you affirm the doctrines of this church. Yeah. And basically tell your testimony and then talk about what you are planning on doing when you leave the college. He said, and the whole thing needs to be about two minutes a piece. Yeah. And he said, then we'll open it up for them to ask you any questions. Yeah. And he's told them not to ask you any questions. I found that out later. Cause check this out. Like I, I'm like the first or second guy. I get up there. I do that. Of course, I'm nervous as can be. I do that. And it's done in like a minute and a half. So the people are like, I'm sitting there like crickets, no questions. And then one of the guys who was actually my manager at the job that I worked at through college, who was a deaconess church, raised his hand and said, so what are you planning on doing when you leave here? And I'm like, well, I have this interview and this interview set up. This is it. Okay. Any more questions for John? No. All right. Great job, John. And that was the way it went. And then the next thing I know we, you know, two days later, we're supposed to meet over there where we have our ordination certificate signed. And then we have the service. That was my ordination. You talk about not prepared. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Just stuff like that. You know, the, I always laugh, you know, West Virginia, where I grew up was big on Robert's Rules of Order. And when there was an interrogator, when there was a part of the ordination was the interrogation is what they'd call it. And so they would have one of the preachers on the council named the interrogator. And I remember as a kid, I'm sitting in church and I think of like bad spy movies where they've got somebody in a room with like a dimly lit with one light bulb swinging from the ceiling and there's an interrogator. That's what I always thought of about. Anyhow, let's move on, Reverend. Another part I think of, and this is fundamentalism. This is where I get very critical because what I'm about to talk about is I think that revisionist history is done on the old paths. Like for example, picking and choosing parts of history that fit the narrative, the trail of blood, which if you Google twice, it falls apart and proves to be just a load of malarkey. Some of the groups they've created ancestry to were heretics, as Matthew Lyon did on the history and hope. He laid that out wonderfully. But so who's a preacher of the first great awakening that you hear every old past preacher talk about and idolize early on? Can you name him who I'm thinking of? Well, him and Whitfield. Whitfield. George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards. Yeah. George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, you know, that crowd. But so I grew up with a Becca book. I grew up with Bob Jones University or Bob Jones Press. And every textbook made him out what a revivalist preacher he was. They claim he was old paths, except that he wasn't, you know. George Whitfield today, ask me if your typical camp meeting preacher would have in a preacher who was a Anglican, who was a Calvinist, who criticized the American Revolution for wanting independence while they would not release slaves. You know, I can't remember if that was, I think that was Whitfield, it may have been Edward, or Wesley, excuse me. But, you know, Jonathan Edwards was a slave owner. You know, Thomas Jefferson, as he penned the Declaration of Independence, all men are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights, owns hundreds of slaves. You know, like, in this era with which we claim, and I'm not saying that independent Baptist people are promoting slavery. I'm just saying that that era that we claim to be old paths, I need to back up and really clarify that. I am not saying that fundamentalists endorse slavery. But I'm saying that I'm just criticizing really early American history there when I say that. Yeah. I'll say a lot of times, and when I talk, and a little bit of me is stirred right now, John, when I talk about slavery, because I'm very compassionate towards people that have been oppressed and persecuted. And I'm studying history, American history, and I want to double back. I'm not saying that any branch of Christianity endorses slavery. I really just, I got off track there and talked about how my heart hurts for people that have been oppressed through the system that was created in early America in the name of Christianity is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was done in the name of Christ, and it was very oppressive. Well, it's something that does not need to be made excuses for at all. It just needs to be called what it is. And you're probably similar to me. I still hear excuses made for that so they can drop up those. Listen, if it was wrong, just call it out and say it was wicked. Yes, it was awful. And I'm not saying that Whitfield contributed to that. I'm saying that I believe he was abolitionist. I know Wesley, you know, was very critical of the American Revolution. How dare you? You know, and I didn't mean, we're talking about fundamentalism today, not slavery. But, you know, and it hurts my heart, though, that people were enslaved in the name of a Christian, not in the name of a Christian religion, but it happened while the church was. Yeah, and many preachers tried to use the Bible to end that institution in the South. Yeah. And we, so again, history, we pick and choose what parts fit our narrative. And we'll claim Whitfield as some preacher when a Calvinist and an Anglican, we wouldn't have him preaching our pulpits today. Independent, fundamental, missionary, landmark, autonomous, indigenous, flag-waving, patriotic. Let's throw all the adjectives in there, soul-winning, separated, flag-waving, devil-hating, sin-stomping, devil, you know, all that. You know, you wouldn't have this man in to preach for you if he were living today. No. Yet we'll claim him as an old past preacher. And while we ignore the parts of history that talk about how we, in the name of Christianity, you know, you have the Indians of South America show, you know, the white men showing up say, you can surrender now. I believe this was the modern-day Portugal. You have the white men showing up from Spain saying, the Pope has given us your land. You can surrender today or we'll fight you for it in the name of Christ and accept baptism. You know, like, that's a story that's very sad that in the name of Christianity, Native Americans were exploited and, you know, black people were enslaved. And I'm not against highlighting Whitfield for what he was, a great man, a great preacher. But I think also we need to be very honest about the fact that slavery was a terrible thing. And many early believers, Jonathan Edwards included, Thomas Jefferson were slave owners. And that was a wicked corrupt practice. Does that make any sense? No, I think you're dead on with we have to be honest about historical figures because, again, fundamentalists are not the only ones that do that. You know, the reform crowd, which I would say I'm in, they can be that way sometimes too. Not being honest about who these are. I'm with you. Whenever I found out that all of these guys, whether it's Spurgeon, Edwards, Whitfield, these guys were five-point, William Carey? William Carey was a five-point Calvinist? Absolutely. John Bunyan was. Matthew Henry was. I mean, I'm like, I felt like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So there's that. And, you know, Spurgeon, you know, the preacher that I won't say the school that I went to, because I learned a lot of good things there, but they hailed Spurgeon as the prince of preachers and would take a tour to see Metropolitan Tabernacle every year. And they would prop him up. And then I didn't even find out he was a Calvinist until I had been out of Bible college years later. And, like, you know, we just pick and choose what parts of history fit our narrative. And the uncomfortable parts, we just sweep under the rug or ignore like they don't exist. And that's just not fair, in my opinion. What do you think about that? Well, I think it can lead to, I don't know, just my opinion. But I think that, obviously, I don't think that many of the leaders that would prop Spurgeon up do not know. Yeah. And we go back to a lack of theological education on the front end. But go ahead. Yeah. And so for that reason, they are purposely withholding and not talking about that. Is it a way of trying to still control the young people that you are influencing and the next generation of leaders? Yeah. Who knows? I think that's a part of it. Yeah. Can't, can't. I mean, that's a speculation on my part. We cannot see their heart and we can't judge their motive. We don't know that, but we know from an overwhelming body of evidence that sometimes, you know, one out of so many preachers are controlling and manipulative and narcissistic and sociopath. That does happen from time to time. So anyhow. And I talked to a guy that went to another IFP college out in California and basically he would read after just about anybody and everybody to gain insights here and there, but would actually tell his students not to do it. Do as I say, not as I do. Yeah. Because they couldn't handle it. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to do the Holy Spirit's job there, aren't we? Um, yeah. I will convict you of sin, righteousness, and judgment, not him. Um, I think, I think probably, so we pick and choose parts of history and then, um, I'm very sensitive about what I'm about to talk about, obviously, but people pick and choose what parts of the Bible fit their narrative. Um, for example, I, uh, I alluded to earlier that I'm a single father. Um, I went through a divorce three years ago that I didn't want, um, didn't want it to happen. Nevertheless, you can imagine, um, of the qualifications listed in 1 Timothy 3 of the, of a pastor, elder bishop. What's the one that we disqualify someone over quickly in, you know, in the Baptist church? Well, the King James translation, I believe, is husband of one wife. Yeah. Yeah. And really, it is not the best translation of a man, a man of one woman, you know, um, I'm not here to talk about theologically. Can I be divorced and still pastor? But let me give you an example. So there, I think there's 14 there being a good father, good reputation, hospitable, apt to teach. And I don't think, I mean, sure. When the Bible gives a list, typically the things that are early on in the list are primary importance, but that's not to downplay the next 13 as it. I don't think it's in descending order of this is most important, second most important, third most important. I think that they're a comprehensive list and that all of them are qualifications equally. So I had a guy that I know take a church, got voted in as a pastor, and I saw it on Facebook. Now, me and this guy are not alike. We're, we're friends, you know, in the concept that we both love Christ and we love the gospel and we love people. But when we come to approaching our theology, we're radically different. He's very strict and probably more in the house camp of strict when I say, I don't mean the Southern camp meeting crowd. But I called him to, so here this guy takes a church. I call to congratulate him. This was recently. I called him to say, man, it's awesome that you got voted in. I'm happy for you. I'll be praying for you. And I hope you do great things. Had to talk to this guy in years. Within five minutes, do you know what the conversation turns into? Why I should not be pastoring because I'm divorced. So here's this guy. I haven't talked to him in years. I'm calling to say congratulations. And this old fighting fundamentalist loaded up his gun and starts unloading on me. And I'm like, it'll be a few more years before I call you back. And so the thing about that that just so angers me is we take husband of one wife, which is really a man of one woman, one woman man. I think there's strong hands at polygamy in the first century. Anyhow, we're not talking about that. But so I know of so many Baptist preachers that are still active today that fall woefully short of 13 of the 14 things on that list. Yes. And, you know, their kids won't even speak to them. You know, they're financially, they're in a mess. They're spending more money than they're bringing in and they're using the ministry to feed their out of control lifestyle financially. We won't disqualify them for that because they're still married to the first woman they got married to where their wife died. You look at self-control. How many? I mean, watch IMB Preacher Pits for 10 minutes and tell me how many of those guys have self-control. How many of those guys have temperance? I mean, when we talk about apt to teach, that doesn't mean to teach it however. That means rightly dividing, looking at scripture, who's it written to, grammatically, historically, I mean, grammar, context, history. What is this? Somebody that's committed to the word of God and teaching it. And some people will get up and just use the scripture to push an agenda that they want. But they're still married to that first wife. So these guys can absolutely abuse the other 13, but these guys will look at me and tell me, because of a divorce I didn't want, you can't preach anymore. You know, it's like that rubs me the wrong way. Well, 1 Timothy 3 in the ESV. Okay. So how many would be guilty of violating these? All right. So sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable. You said able to teach. Verse 3, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle. Can I go back? Yeah. When we're talking about drunkard, I think the implication there could also be made that it's not necessarily the drink itself. Well, yeah, I mean, it's a problem. But, you know, some Calvinists believe drinking is okay. I'm still the strike that I don't do. You're a teetotaler. Yeah, I'm a teetotaler. But, you know, I think you could also make the argument, you know, when you compare, I mean, obviously, literally, it's drinking. But I think also you could make the spirit of the application there to be any addiction of any kind. I see whenever the New Testament speaks of being drunken or talks about that stuff, it's the idea is carried with it of being under the influence of something other than the spirit. Or something other than the spirit of God's work. Yeah, and so we don't talk about the addiction to the fork in the buffet. We don't talk about the addiction to, I see your face. We don't talk about the addiction to control. We don't talk about the addiction to unhealthy habits berating people. We don't talk about the habits of unhealthy sexual habits and pornography. If you're, if you're, I'm convinced that, that not everybody, I mean, man, this is a dark world. And, you know, and so, like, all of these things put together, I think drunkenness speaks to, you know, all things are practical, or all things are, but not all things are permissible, but all things are beneficial. And I think it speaks to Christ being Lord of my life all the time. So I interrupted you drunkenness. Go ahead. Well, I think the next one in verse three in the middle, it says not quarrelsome. Yeah. And can I be honest with you? I don't know if it's probably my personality, but even my training, I have to be on guard for that one. Yeah. I enjoy stirring the pot sometimes. And sometimes, sometimes I get upset and want to post on Facebook, and I know that it's poking the bear. I mean, I mean, let's be honest. Sometimes we all like to stir in the pot, and I have to be careful about that because I can't be quarrelsome. Yeah. And there is a line between, you know, you have to, the truth is going to make people upset. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But I, you know, I think this has been on my mind since, since last week when I interviewed Matthew Lahn. It just, so much of it just keeps coming to the forefront that, especially when you told the story about the guy that just railed in you. And that is that in fundamentalism, the main thing is authority and not love. I cannot say when he said that last week, my brain melted out of my skull. Yeah. I mean, like, like. Because let's say, let's say you disagree. The guy did disagree with you. What if I disagree with you? Yeah. But what you need is not me to rail against you. Yeah. Why can't we just love? Yeah, exactly. Hereby all men will know you're my disciples when you have authority. Anyhow, move on, Reverend. Yeah, what's the next one? Are you, is that it? Okay, I'm going to talk with this real quick. Nah, I'm not going to talk about that. I'm not going to talk. I'm probably going to get enough emails this week. Or whenever this comes out. Biblical basis for old paths preached within the sect. There is none. Yes. Zero. Okay, so this is, this, you hear the, and it's, again, if you go through IFB preacher clips, I mean, at least once a day, I'd say you hear an old paths clip, right? Oh, multiple. Okay, so this is something that I heard in chapel all the time, college chapel, heard in revival meetings, all this stuff. I actually drove past, I know, you're a boy, I'll just, I'll name, I'll call names, I don't care. Tony Hudson's church the other day. Hey, man! My wife had a chiropractor appointment and I was right over there, so I was like, all right, I'm going to run by there. And his son. Middle Tennessee Baptist Church. Yeah, his son says, Middle Tennessee's home for the old time religion. Yeah. Okay, so this is something that has railed to where people start to believe that if it's not old paths, it's not right. So then this gives them a platform to rip against anything modern. Yeah. Okay, so is, you just said there's no biblical basis for this old path. Yes, I did a search to try to find if there's anything that mentions it. Of course, to understand their ideology, you have to be in the King James. There's two verses that even come close to it. Jeremiah 6.16 says, Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. Okay? Yeah. Before I hit the next verse, Brian, why does this, why is it, why can we not use this verse to then say, Bless God, we need to stick to the old paths in this church? Well, we could reference what I said a little bit ago about picking parts of the Bible to fit our narrative, which, rightly dividing anything on this side, on the other side of the cross was written to the Jew, not to the church. Right. We have, that's, I mean, it's a, I don't know if you're dispensationalist. But isn't that a crazy contradiction? Because the same guys that will sit there and hit this truth like crazy, some of them are crazy hyper dispensationalists. Yeah. Yeah. We hadn't talked about where you were on your theology there, so I didn't want to go there. But, but yeah, but yeah. Okay. Let me say something there, though. And this is something that I meant to preface Matthew's interview with, and I may start doing that. Part of the reasons why I'm, I'm not going to agree with everything that you said or that Matthew said. No. But one of the reasons why I'm doing this, because number one, you have a perspective that I think that needs, I want to put out there. Number two, a subsect reason would be to show people we can learn from those we do disagree with. Yeah. Well, that's beauty, man. I mean, you know, in order, like for a graphic to show up well on media, you want contrast. You know, you're not going to use a black background and purple letters, dark purple. I mean, if you do like a black background, you're going to use a bright something that jumps off. And you need contrast for things to make the best possible version of what it can be. And, you know, even we could talk about, you know, we could talk about, you know, help me in the Old Testament. It doesn't mean like a man has a help me. The Hebrew, ah, I'm rusty, but it literally means to oppose against. The help me, it's not that the man, that the woman helps the man. It's literally, they're going to be in opposition of one another and support like an A-frame house would be, where they lean against each other and they work in a way that the opposition that one brings, brings out the best in each other. And so help me does not be idea of the subservient woman. It's the principle of to lean against, like two boards leaning together in an A-type position. That's the idea there. And you need contrast from people that are not like you. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. That is great. So, so the Jeremiah passage was, yeah, the Jews. Sure. Yeah. I mean, let me tell you. Go ahead. That's all we need to say. That's all we need to say. Okay. The other passage is really quick to just dismantle too, because it's from Proverbs 23.10. Remove not the old landmark and enter not in the fields of the fatherless. This one is absolutely hilarious when you actually break this down. Hold on. I have it written. Here's a commentary from Wolvard and Zuck, the Old Testament Bible knowledge commentary. This is what they say. Stealing land from a neighbor by moving his boundary stone is bad enough, but to take it from the children of widows is worse yet. Because the next verse, I took it away. You got to hear the next verse, because... Be careful with that context you're talking in right now. The Proverbs? I'm being funny. Like, you're talking about verses in context. Be careful doing that. Yeah. You'll mess up our theology if you do. Well, the next verse, verse 11. Okay. So, do not move in the ancient landmark or enter the fields of the fatherless, for their redeemer is strong. He will plead their cause against you. This is not about removing the stake of where you stand in your position. This is about taking your neighbor's stuff away from his fatherless children. Yeah. Yeah. So, several years ago, we made the turn away from doing strictly Southern gospel and hymns to contemporary music and hymns. We really kind of eliminated Southern gospel altogether, and it's just hymns or... I won't say we eliminated it. We just reduced it. You know, we were doing 95% Southern gospel music when I got here with 5% hymns. And really, now it's a split, you know, where we do contemporary music and hymns. We'll do back and forth. And when we first started, there was an older man in our church that loved Southern gospel music. And again, you have every right to like what you like. I'm going to like... I mean, I'll listen to hip-hop and folk with a dubstep beat and banjos at the same time. I love that sound. And wow, wow, if you listen to that, you'd probably be... If you listen to my playlist, what I listen to in the mornings, like, people would be like, what? What? It's not bad music. It's just different than... I'm a redneck who lives in an urban society down here. So, my taste of it all. But... So, this guy loves Southern gospel music. And when we first... I mean, like, we sang... The first time we sang a contemporary song was a revelation song. And I mean, like, you're talking about a scriptural song that speaks of Revelation 4 and 5 around the throne of God. What's happening? This is more scriptural than anything we sing Southern gospel. And he comes up to me. Maybe you could see it on his face. He's angry. And he said, preacher, I'm mad about us singing this new music. And I said... And I called his name. And I said... This is an older man. I said, friend, we need to be able for everybody to get fed. And some of these younger kids like music that's a little more modern. And we want to sing a little bit of music for them, a little bit of music for you, a little bit of music for everybody. You know, the Christian message of love and sacrifice for one another. And he looked at me defiantly shaking his fist saying, well, they can learn my music. And you just look at that, how selfish and oriented that is around the old paths. But it's not really about God's music or what God likes or what God responds to or what honors Christ or what honors the Holy Spirit. It's about they can learn my music. And so I think that's the old paths in a... A lot of it has to do, as far as the music goes, and I have intentions on doing a breakdown of the legalism in the music on an episode. But a lot of it has to do with the presentation of the music and not the lyrical content. Yeah, you're right. I mean, how many times... Honestly, I don't think I could count one time where I actually heard a song refuted because of its message. It's the beat. Yeah. And so therefore, what you have is you have the preacher, whoever it is, when they get on that subject, it's about nailing down their preferences on everybody else. Yeah, exactly. Forcing what I want versus what is. I think so. And I'm good with that point about the old paths preach within the sect. It's very much subjective in what I think needs to happen versus what Scripture teaches. You agree? Yeah. And this next section, you know, this would be the final section. And then I'm going to... We're going to have some fun right here. Do you think there is a link between the clinging to the old paths and American nationalism? Like... A thousand percent. Yeah. Yeah. Because this is my country. This is the way I want it to stay. Therefore, let me converge that with my religion. Mm-hmm. Sure. I've got two points I'm going to make. One, for those that may not know. So like you think you go to church, you sing songs, you listen to preaching, you go home. And depending on who you are, you might do an invitation that lasts longer than the preaching does. But I'm kidding when I say that. Listen, if we're in a church and people are coming forward for prayer, I'll stay there all night. You know, like I typically don't do the altar call in the sense of I do a very simple invitation. But if people are there praying, I'm going to be there as long as it takes, you know. And that's my idea now. I'm kidding when I talk about long altar calls. I'm kidding when I say that. But we went to a camp meeting every single year where you knew on the first night somebody was going to pick up the American flag and run with it. Oh, my God. You knew. You knew it was going to happen. And when somebody got the American flag to run with it, buddy, it's going to break loose. You're going to have people up just shouting and screaming. I'm 12 years old. We're in church for four hours. And I'm just bored out of my mind, 10, 11, 12 years old, whatever I was. And this is funny. Somebody got that American flag. And I thought, next time they get that American flag, I'm going to get out in the aisle and do something, see if anybody even notices. Well, so they got that American flag, started running with it. I got out in the aisle and did the Ric Flair, the strut. Woo! With my four fingers out down the aisle. I'm like 11, 12 years old. And everybody's like, look, even the young people are getting in on it. And I'm doing the four horsemen strut down the aisle like Ric Flair. And I remember every time somebody would start saying amen, I would just do more ludicrous things to see if anyone would notice. Oh, my goodness. So that's what happened growing up. But let me ask you a question. Okay, so there is a connection between old paths and American nationalism. Okay, our forefathers, why did they set up separation of church and state? My answer would be because of the infringement of the crown from where they came from, from England. So, you know, you had the divine right of kings. Right. The king was the head. And it's still that way today in England, even though the church is a joke. But the king is the head of the church. Yeah. Okay, so you have the church state. You have the church state. The Constantine era until that time. And really, I think you and I still grew up in the Constantine era. I think that shifted very quickly as far as America being post-Christian. But our forefathers set up separation of church and state to make it almost impossible for the government to impose on matters of religion. I think that's very clear. Today, how many pastors, IFB pastors, are asking Trump to be a modern-day Constantine? Hmm. Don't get me started on Trump. I'll get Trump. Yeah, we're not going to go there. We're not going to go there. But how upside down is it that 250 years ago, we were banning the government to legislate religion? And now we're acting as if, and I'm not saying that I'm for or against, because that's a lightning rod. But I'm saying we are asking Trump. When I say we, folks, Independent Baptists, think Trump is Cyrus the Great made over. Which, I mean, you could go into both sides of that, and I'm not here to do that. But our forefathers didn't want the government involved in any matters of religion. And now we're practically begging them to. I think that our ties from old past ideology and American nationalism are incredibly linked in ways that we don't even realize. Yeah, I think one song, and I hate to say this because there is some great lyrics in this song that is sung quite a bit. But to me, it sort of proves the point. It's called I Have Been Blessed. And there are some great lyrics in that song, but the song builds. If you've ever been in a Camp Meeting-style church where they sing that song. There are 17 verses in that song. But it gets on, and so people are screaming. But I can't tell you how many times where that song is being sung. And then when they get to the last part, which is interesting, too, that the buildup and the climax of the song is to the patriotic verse, where it goes, We live in a country, the greatest on earth. Boy, the house comes down when it comes. Oh, yeah, every time. But they've already sung about the lamb being slain and that kind of thing. Which I know there's a lot of shouting going on with that. But, I mean, it just seems like – well, let me ask you. I think that America has become an idol. Like anything, I think absolutely. You know, even to the point of, you know, you see preachers now almost defending the colonial days as this perfect little bubble and all this history that's coming out about Thomas Jefferson owning slaves. And, you know, potentially, you know, you hear people talk about did he rape slaves, did he not. I don't think factually. I don't know that factually. But you hear about all this stuff about colonial era that it's just uncomfortable because it shifts our worldview as not completely true. And America becoming the idol that this is America. Well, it's America to the white man. But it's a different thing to different people, you know. Like a lot of people are oppressed in our country. And I'm not a socialist. I'm not, you know, by any stretch of that. But I think that America is an idol to a lot of people. And really, I think that we have to be Christians first before anything else. Yeah, let me say this. I don't know. You can make your statement. I am, I'm not, like, I don't hate my country. I'm not unpatriotic. But you said this, and I say this to our church so many times. We're Christians first. And nations come and go like the wind throughout the church history. Yeah. Yeah, but the Romans that persecuted the church so much, today you can walk through the ruins of their city for like 12 euros. And the church sits strong, yeah. Yeah. Have you ever heard the story between Jerome and Augustine in the fall of the Roman Empire? It's a great story. I'll look it up. The barbarians were attacking Rome, and it looked like, okay, this is going to be it. Jerome sends out letters. He goes and hides in a cave. Okay. Okay. Sending out letters, freaking out that the great Roman Empire, his nation, his country. Yeah. Is about to fall. And in the letters, it includes sort of like, what are we going to do now? This has got to be the end. Yeah. Literally the same time, Augustine meets that letter with his book, The City of God. Oh, wow. Which basically was an answer to Jerome's reaction to the fall of the Roman Empire. Basically that we are not, there's so much more in the book, The City of God. Oh, that's, yeah. Yeah. But it's, I didn't know that story. We are citizens of another country. Yeah. We're citizens of a heaven. Yeah. We're citizens of heaven. I mean, absolutely. Did I cut you off the micro, your sound cut out there? I wanted to make sure you made your point before I said that. Yeah, I was finished. Okay. Yeah. I think that I don't hate my country. I love America. I'm thankful we live here. I want to make that very clear. But I also want to make the point that we need to be socially compassionate towards people that are suffering. And, you know, we, if there are white people that are suffering, I mean, I went through a divorce. I'm Caucasian and like, I needed help. I needed people to love me. I still need people to love me. I'm parenting a four-year-old little girl by myself. They do not come with manuals. I need people to love and care for me. I'm trying to date in this 20 world and crazy world in 2020. You want to have a podcast on hilarious, awkward dates? I can have that podcast, too. I need help and prayer that God would bring this woman into my life. Being single is fun, but it's chaos, man. You know, we need people to be compassionate to us, to black people, to, you know, one of the things I was convicted of a couple weeks ago was someone asked me, are you taking time to reach to your, you know, brown and black brothers and just listen to them and just try to understand them? Are you, and I was so convicted because during quarantine, I very much, my little girl has asthma. I don't take her many places. I try to keep her home as much as I can. Don't really take her anywhere that we go in very much. But I was so convicted at that, that even, you know, minorities that I preach that we love, what are we doing to actually show them the love of God? What are we doing to actually, and I don't mean just minorities, white people. What are we doing to show people the love of God? And I love America, and I'm thankful for our freedom of religion. I'm thankful that we have the opportunity to express our freedom. You know, the Calvinist can worship his way. I can worship my way. You know, the Independents can worship their way. The Southern Baptists can worship their way. The Reform, you know, I'm thankful that we have religious liberty. I'm really grateful for that. But I also think that we don't need to bury our head in the sand to anyone that's suffered or been oppressed or someone that is struggling because at the end of the day, we're believers. And really, there are believers and unbelievers. And if we are not salt and light to those unbelievers, who will be? Yeah. And that's my point. That's my big point. Yeah, this will probably be the most political that I get on the podcast because that's, I really want to stay away from it. But I'm reminded. Yeah, I don't like to either. I'm reminded of something I read in a book. And let's just say that your political persuasion is right-wing conservative. Yeah. But you're a Christian. So if you're listening to this and you're a believer and that's your political persuasion, let me just say this to you. You probably believe that most of the liberals out there are unsaved. If that's the case, then that's your mission field. Yeah. Rock on, dude. And if that's your mission field, does getting vehemently upset over tearing down a statue or some kind of left-wing policy or the fact that they're voting in some kind of candidate, is that really worth passing over your mission field and letting that person go to hell? I preached on it. I'm sorry. I interrupted you, John. You're good. You're good. Go ahead. I was done. I interrupted you. I'm sorry for that. I just, I wanted to add on what you said. I preached on Jonah 4 last weekend where Jonah was more angry about his plant dying with the shade rather than God sparing the people of Nineveh. Yeah. And I was preaching about, you know, what are we more concerned about today? The people on our streets, the people in our homes, the people in our communities, or are we more upset about the fact that they're pulling, that the statues are being pulled down? When I say they, I don't mean any race. I just mean people that are unhappy right now. Are we more concerned with the whites, the African-Americans, the Hispanics? Are we more concerned with their souls? Are we like Jonah? We're just upset that the plant that's given us shade is being torn down like a statue. I preached on that last week. That's a great, great application. Yeah. I've always looked at Jonah as the prejudice or racist prophet. Yeah. Yeah. The application of him sort of holding up that, that gourd and that tree as, you know, more important is, is very applicable to Americans today. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you being on the podcast and it's been a lot of fun. Honestly, it has been fun. Would you, would you just, if you, if you were to talk to somebody that may be in a transition where you were a few years ago, you know, I know the circumstances were different, but transition out of maybe a fundamentalist culture, what would you say to him? I want to tell you that you've been told most of your life that people like me and John are bad people, you know, liberals, theological liberals come out of Germany in 1800s. No, not going to, um, um, I want to tell you that if you decide to break or if you are breaking or if you have broken away from fundamentalism, there are a lot of good people in this world that will love you. And, uh, it seems so impossible to break away from something that you've always known, um, something that you're very comfortable with. I mean, let's be honest, we're all very comfortable in something and to break away from comfort is hard to break away from comfort is not easy, but I just want to challenge you and let you know that, you know, just like John quoted a minute ago when, when Rome fell, you know, there was still a purpose of God, you know, Augustine wrote the city of God there, but, um, you're going to be okay. And if it's God's will for you to move on, God will supply all your needs according to his riches and glory by Christ Jesus. And the application there is financial with Paul in prison. I get that, but I'm talking about primarily that God will bring people into your life. God has brought so many wonderful people in my life, different kinds of people to, to help me, um, to bless me, to, to help me just through divorce, through, uh, I have three little girls in heaven that I lost to miscarriage. And all of that was after I came out of fundamentalism and, um, so many other things that, that I've walked through, um, that God has brought wonderful people who love Jesus. And they might not, they might not all have the same haircut I've had. They might not all wear a tie on Sunday. They might not wear, they might not even go to church. I mean, I don't know, but there are wonderful people that God will bring into your path to teach you who he really is. And, uh, there is life after you leave. You may face shunning. You may have people that are very critical of you, but, um, I just want to tell you somebody's walked that road. There's life after it. And there's a good life after it. I'm, I'm happier now at 35, single parent. I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I'm happier with myself. Um, I like the person I am when I get up in the mornings. I love my little girl. I love my church. I love my life. I've never been happier or more content with my life than I am today. And that's after divorce, after miscarriage, after fundamentalism, after, after a lot of other things I didn't go into today, but, um, you're going to be okay. And, uh, that's good. That's good. I like that because there is suffering. Yeah. You do suffering, but the Christian life is not an absence of suffering. No. It's the presence of joy. Yeah. And suffering. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I think that you exhibit that. Yeah. Well, thank you, bud. Um, uh, I appreciate that very much. And, um, just try to love the Lord no matter what, you know, Job said, Job said, his wife said, curse God and die. He said, you speak like a foolish woman. Don't we receive both good and evil at the hands of the Lord and the suffering, you know, we literally, you take the good with the bad is what that teaches. And you just have to keep your smile up and follow Jesus no matter what. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, for coming on the podcast and, and discussing those topics with me today. I really do think that, uh, uh, some people will be helped by it. I'm following Matthew line. That's not exactly an easy, an easy person to follow up. He's smarter than me and you and 10 other people put together, but I hope it's a blessing to somebody. Yeah. Well, thanks everybody for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, give it a share on social media. You can follow the podcast on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And until next time to God, not the pastor be the glory. Bye. Bye. Thank you.

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