80. Jim Quigley Interview - Freedom Farm

I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. Those that criticize this kind of preaching, they don't like authority! If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got... Hey, if you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. And it'd be surprised. Son, don't go to sleep while I'm talking. Hey, hey, hey, don't you lay your head back. I'm important. I'm somebody. I love you. You know I love you. Have I convinced you I love you? You better nod your head yes, are you? Come on, put it right there. Stay awake and you listen to me. I still believe if you have cold day and healthy, I get my balance with a woman. I'm a preacher. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP network that seeks to bring freedom in Christ from the spiritual abuse of legalism. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. But I think bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome, everybody. We are excited to have Jim Quigley with us today. James and I are interviewing James. As you're listening to this, James is not in his studio. James is driving around. So if you hear his audio, he's pulling the Brian Edwards, the little RFP fam network there, recording in the car as he's going. Well, you know, John, as we have busy schedules, sometimes we forget that our families are also in that schedule. So I took my son to his appointment this morning, and I'm taking him to school right now. So we are doing life and ministry all at the same time, and it's a great thing. It's a great thing to be able to do that. Well, you're doing better than I did, because I don't know when this is going to air or when the Sean Peron interview is going to air, but I didn't make it for that one. But James made sure that he made it on for this one. I didn't think you were. I thought I was going to be flying solo today. But we're excited. We're going to be talking a little bit about addictions today as we are trying to bring a biblical counseling perspective and bring the Bible, the sufficiency of Scripture, to helps with life problems and that type of thing. And so we've got Jim Quigley. He's the director of Freedom Farm Ministries out of Boone, North Carolina. Jim, welcome to the podcast. Hey, it's great to be here, guys. But maybe the audience should know that James is not holding his phone if they're watching it. He's got an assistant right now. That's right. Well, Jim, tell us a little bit about what you do there and what Freedom Farm is. Sure. So my title is I'm the executive director of Freedom Farm Ministries, which is a one-year residential facility for men and women that are struggling with the sin of substance abuse. We've been around since 2006. And the one year is spent in four different phases. And I won't get into all the details about all the phases. But basically, the idea is that people are progressively moving through, you know, beginning stages, lots of supervision. And that supervision lightens up. And then they start getting more engagement with the community, more engaged with, you know, quote, unquote, you're a normal life of, you know, get a job, pay your bills and things like that. But we slowly integrate people through those four stages, and they get biblical teaching all along the way in order to help reorder their lives. That's awesome. That's awesome. And Jim also co-hosts a podcast, too, called The Addiction Connection with Mark Shaw. And I've got to hear a lot of – I listen to that faithfully. And so I've heard a lot of, like, what Jim's work is there. And there's another guy, CJ. CJ McMurray, yeah. Yeah, CJ McMurray and his ministry, too. So these guys are doing frontline work with those that are just, you know, struggling with sin and struggling with problems that a lot – you know, quite honestly, a lot of people don't want to put the – just cast aside. Yeah. And so it's phenomenal what they're doing. But Jim has an interesting story, Jim, of how he became the executive director of – Yeah. When I was introducing myself, I was – I said I have the title of executive director. And I have to say that humbly because I didn't sign up to be the executive director. And I don't know if I do such a good job of what an executive director would be. I have a wonderful board that is – have come alongside of me, and they're really trying to help me out. But I came to Freedom Farm as a resident of the program. And, you know, my back story with my own personal struggle with addiction, you know, I started using drugs and alcohol at an early age, 12, 13. And it took a progressive course until I was 24. I grew up Christian private school. I went to a conservative church. I was a member of a PCA church growing up. And so I had a lot of good influence around me, Christian influence around me. But I, you know, I took my own path, which I know today was I had a real issue with pride of life. That was my love for the world. I had a real strong pride of life issue. And that really influenced and drove addiction for me. And anyway, I went to – at 24, I had a lot of things happen that drove me into recovery, secular recovery, which 12 Steps, South Florida, which is – I mentioned South Florida because anybody that knows anything about the world of addiction recovery knows that South Florida is like per square mile, the largest concentration of rehabs and halfway houses and things like that. So anyway, secular rehab, conservative church. And I ended up going to Bible college. I wanted to serve the Lord. Six years of sobriety, a Bible college degree. I relapsed. I relapsed because I never dealt with my pride of life sin. And when I was 35, through lots of circumstances, the one final circumstance being I was living at my pastor's home with his wife and three small children. He was the pastor of the PCA church that I had grown up in. And I overdosed in his house. And that led to me being kicked out. And I lost my job. And I ended up at Freedom Farm two weeks later. And here at Freedom Farm is where I was able to finally repent of my deep heart issues and really my worship of myself, which is a lot of what Pride of Life issues in. And you're worshiping yourself. And the tool to do that was drugs. That sounds probably complicated. But that's really what was going on with me. And I've been here ever since. I worked underneath the old founder, director. And after about four years, I took over the ministry. And I've been here ever since. Now, Jim, would you say that you were like, at what time did you become a believer? I guess what I'm sort of curious about, like, would you say that you were a believer in any point of those times of addiction? Yeah. Yeah. So this is a tough conversation to have with people. But I do believe. I don't have that story where at this day I gave my life over to the Lord. Right. In my understanding about how God works, he regenerates a heart. Right. And you have a real sensitivity to God and his law and your need for forgiveness and all of those things. You have knowledge of God. Right. In a way that a natural person doesn't. And I believe I had that from an early age. And I also believe that a persistent sin or a besetting sin in a believer's life can quench the Holy Spirit. And in my context of quenching the Holy Spirit, I explain it this way. That gong of spiritual conviction that you have in your life, I think God just kind of makes it really quiet. And you don't you don't really feel the conviction anymore. And it actually gets even scarier because you had it at one time and you continue in sin. And every so often you'll think about how self sinful you're being. But you're not really that convicted to where you want to turn from it. And that that becomes a whole new wrestling in your mind. And this comes out of is a second Corinthians seven where it talks about godly sorrow and worldly sorrow. So if you know the passage, it says that it says that godly sorrow leads to repentance, which leads to life and a life without regret. That's actually a better translation. Whereas worldly sorrow leads to death. That's what it says. But that that that letter is being written to believers. So I don't think it's proper appropriate to think that that he's talking about initial conversion and salvation there. He's talking about a state of spiritual life. Whereas if you get caught up in a worldly sorrow, which I was, I was very sorry for not being as good as I wanted to be in front of everybody. Right. I was really sorry that I had had accomplishments in life and I had turned out as a loser. Right. In my own mind. I was really sorry that people that I wanted to to think highly of me didn't. Right. I was really sorry about those things. But God had nothing to do with any of that. Right. That's worldly sorrow. And I and I really did experience a kind of spiritual death. Does that make sense? Like where you where you just would rather die. And, you know, unfortunately, well, part of my story is I actually had at least one very serious suicide attempt that I survived. I was in a coma for four days. But that, you know, that's how bad that can get your sin and quenching the spirit can get to where you'd rather die than live. Was that after the the sobriety? Yes. It was during that five year relapse. It was shortly before relapsing at the or overdosing at the pastor's house. I had I had been home and this is kind of a screwed up story, but I had let my brother. I have a younger brother that also has struggled with addiction. I had let him borrow my car for months and I was at a rehab. I was in rehab while he was using my car and I got out of rehab prematurely and I was already off to the races. And I called my brother up and he knew I was high and I and I demanded my car. I said, you're you're bringing me my car tomorrow. I'm getting my car back tomorrow. So my brother didn't want to give me my car because he figured I'd probably go out and do something really bad. So what he did was he parked it in front in a in a in the handicapped parking spot in front of a bar. And my brother was drinking. So he sat there and drank called called the taxi, but then called the tow truck company and said, hey, somebody's parked this car in a note in a handicapped spot. So anyway, the next day I was looking for my car and my brother was like, I don't know, man. I parked it in front of your house. I don't know why it's not there. I live in an apartment complex. And and I ended up looking all over the place from my car and then I ended up calling the cops and they said, your car is not stolen. We towed it last night from this establishment. And when I found that out, like I was I was desperately trying to go get drugs and I had no ride. I had no way to go get it. And I went upstairs and and I ended up taking about three months supply of a bunch of mental medication that that I had been given. And and it put me into a coma for a few days. My my internal organs temporarily kind of were going in and out and stuff. It was it was not good. It was not a good time. Well, I got a question. This isn't even part of our interview that but you brought it up. And I want to ask my my wife. She's a Christian school teacher and someone that she works with. Her son just tried committing suicide this week. And so I've had some conversations a little bit with the family and just trying to help out his dad's a pastor in the area. What what help did you get after that? After you committed suicide, of course, you were on suicide watch for a little bit or tried to commit suicide on suicide watch a little bit. What what was some things that helped you after that? Yeah, I'm coming from the I can actually tell you exactly what happened for me. And it didn't happen right off right right after that. I mean, obviously, after that, I had the overdose at the pastor's house. And I'll tell you two events that pastor visited me in the hospital. Right. I love this guy. His name is Omar Ortiz. He's he's actually now over on the he's he's in San Diego now with his family. But but Omar came to me in the hospital room. I'd been in there for about three or four days. And after my overdose at his house and he he had to excuse his wife because I got into a fight with her. Like this is how prideful I was. OK, she came in to yell at me because they found my paraphernalia. They found syringes and spoons like in a room of their house and they have small children. Right. And she says, how dare you? My kid. What what would have happened if my kids had gotten a hold of this? And my answer to her was, you know, I'm really sorry that you thought this was all going to work out some way. But you knew exactly what you were bringing into your house when you made the decision. So I basically said it was her fault. Well, that's how prideful I was. And and and he had to excuse her out of the room. I mean, I was really damaged. I had to really make amends with her about a year later because I actually had forgotten how hurtful I had been. But but he stayed in the room and patiently looked at me and he said, Jim, look. Look, I've been battling all night in my brain and I'm really struggling because I believe, you know, the gospel. He's like, I just can't get past that. This guy knows the gospel. Like I've seen some fruit that would just indicate that you are a believer. So I can't go for some reason. I'm not going down that. So I'm just trying to figure out what in the world. How can I help you? And he says, you know, in James, it says that some of us are sick and we need to come to the elders and pray and confess our sins to each other and and pray for each other so that we may be healed. And he said, and, you know, I wonder, he goes, you know, I don't I don't I'm not trying to present myself as a Catholic priest and we have to do confession. But he said, I wonder, Jim, how long it's been since you've actually confessed. And and just really repented and and and had a brother sit next to you and just remind you of what Christ has done for your sin to remind you that you're forgiven. And and he said, so I wondered if maybe you wanted to do that. And again, this to show you how arrogant I was. I'm lying in a hospital room. OK, and in a bed. I just got an ICU. And this was my answer to him. I said, I said, you know, Omar, that sounds really nice. And if I ever want to do something like that, you're the first guy I'm going to call. So anyway, fast forward like a month later and I'm here at Freedom Farm. And the senior pastor, who's a dear friend of mine, he was here talking to the Freedom Farm guys on a Wednesday night. And he said, look, I got I got a message on my heart right now. And he says and he goes, this is what I want to say. He says, really, there's two groups of people in this room. He says, there are there are men in this room that have never had a relationship with God through Christ. And he says, and I want to I want to assure you, you're going to hear you're in a good place to hear how you can have that. You can have a relationship with with God through Christ. He said, but that's not necessarily who I want to talk to tonight. He says, my heart is really burdened for some guys in this room that have relationships with God through Christ. And he says, he goes, those are the people I want to talk to because you're coming to a place like Freedom Farm. And you're feeling that God is way over here and you're way over here and you're at Freedom Farm. And you've got to do a lot of work to get back to him. He said, those are the guys I want to talk to. And when he said that, that got that got my attention because I was like, yeah, that's me. You know, I want to I want to get back to God. That's why I'm here. And the task of getting back to God is daunting. So little side note, if you live a period of of of of legalist self-righteousness, you know, which is what I did. You know, I don't know when it turned into that, but I had six years of sobriety. I went to Bible college. I got a degree, all those things when that when that becomes a pile of self-righteousness that you're standing on top of. Right. And you fall from it. That pile is still active if you don't understand it well. Right. And this is what I mean. You fell. And then that piles on top of you. And in your thinking, you're like, in order to get back to where I once was, it's going to take at least that much work to get back there. Right. And so that's what I was stuck in. I was stuck in that. Like, how am I ever I mean, that took six years to get. How am I ever going to get back there? That's what was going on in my own head. And that's what he was addressing that night. And that's why I got my attention. And he just used a little simple illustration. He said, this is what I want you to understand. He says, you guys that have a relationship, it's like this. He goes, your relationship is secure because it's in Christ. He goes, but this is what happens. He goes, some of us turn from God and turn to our sin. But God hasn't gone anywhere. You still have a relationship with him. But what you've done is you've broken fellowship with him. But he's given this wonderful thing to restore fellowship. It's called repentance. And repentance means to turn. So you don't need to go and work all this stuff to get back to him. You just need to turn back to him in repentance and restore fellowship. And he said, I want to lead anybody that wants to in prayer tonight to do that. And that night I did. And I said, like, the first honest prayer I'd probably said in years. And I wasn't, like, filled with the Holy Spirit that night or anything like that. Like, I started speaking in tongues or anything. But I will tell you that I was telling you guys, I think before, or maybe I was during this, that I had been through a period of where I believe my besetting sin had quenched the spirit in my life. And when I meant that, what I meant by that is, like, his conviction, that conviction, it almost was so quiet, you know, that it really didn't, it wasn't impactful. But, like, I remember just soon after that prayer, like, conviction came back in my life like a gong, man. I mean, I was afraid to not heed conviction, if that makes any sense. It was like, it was like he, it was amazing. I almost started to get weepy just talking about it. But something, something happened where, and trust me, I had an experience with God in a special way. But within a few days, I was already, I was already not listening to some of the conviction. But it was a start of a path of upwards trajectory in my life that I never looked back from. And things just started to, you know, that's where I kind of got a passion for this type of work. I mean, because I saw myself as, you know, a Bible college guy, you know, I graduated from Bible college. And this is a very simple biblical concept that I'm sure people told me, right? I'm sure people had explained this before. But why is it that, like, it just seems so new to me? You know, why did I seem to miss it, you know? So if I can miss it, then anybody can miss it. And they need brothers around them to really just explain the ABCs of the gospel to them. And so I just kind of felt called to do, you know? No, I think that's, I think that's been fantastic. And I think it's very honest. Like, more honest than I think sometimes believers are willing to get. Yeah, I was just thinking about that hymn, Come Thou Fount, and that line at the end, I think of the third verse, prone to wander, Lord, I feel it, prone to leave the God I love. What a statement that was written down over 100 years ago. Yeah. Prone to leave the God I love. Yeah. If we can figure out that statement, right? Because I think we can see it, and like someone manifests itself in a life-destroying addiction. But in our own hearts, you know, how has your walk with God grown so cold? It's really a lot of the same things that you're breaking down with what was going on in your life. You know, you're going through emotions. You've grown cold to the Spirit, you know, and His working in your heart, just like you were saying that it happened with you. Yeah. Yeah, you know, you guys love biblical counseling, and, you know, one of the fundamental things about, you know, when you have a new case of biblical counseling is that you've got to figure out, is this going to be an evangelistic appeal, or am I going to be walking alongside someone in sanctification? What am I doing here? Those are the two things. And that's, you know, that's really the problem a lot of times when it comes to addressing, you know, these outward besetting sins of people. They want to attack just the sin, like addiction especially, right? You know, now the world of addiction, they just want to give you medication for it. Like, it's like, hey, we'll give you this medication, and that'll, you know, that may reduce people's use and things like that, but you're never going to get down to the heart of the matter, because the heart of the matter is that the person is either unregenerate, or they're really struggling on in sanctification here. And we need to get down to those things, you know? Yeah, and I think, so I'm glad you brought that up, because whether it's counselors, fellow counselors listening to this, whether it's family members of someone going through this, what you have to realize is that God is the only one who can do that type of work. He's the one that has to reach down to the heart and do the work in that person. As much as we care for those people, we cannot change them. Right. Yeah. Well, Jim, as we continue this talk, as we continue to go forward, how did you go from, you said 13 or 15 years ago, ODing, you know, at your rock bottom, how did you go from there to now you're the executive director of the ministry that you went to? Like, that's a crazy journey to think, you know, you started at one point, and now you're, again, I know you said you felt like, you know, led to and to continue to invest in other people that are struggling with the same things, but going from Bible college, OD, into now you're the man in charge. Let me add on to James's question. Sure. And we're not asking this, I don't think we're, we're not asking this to sort of like, look how great Jim is. Right? Yeah. But we're asking this because I think some people that have, especially people that have family members that are addicts, it's, it's, when you're in the middle, it's hard to see that there is a other side where God has worked and there's life on the other side. And I think hearing this part of your story, Jim, could be very encouraging to someone like that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. The, the journey, not only that moment, I just explained to you guys where someone finally spoke into what was going on with me in my heart, you know, previously to that, like many other people that struggle with addiction, I had been to a bunch of programs, right? And I had been given a whole bunch of information that unfortunately I don't agree with to this day. Um, and the thing is, is that I think a lot of those people are very well-meaning, right? Um, a lot of people were really, really did care. Um, you know, just like you were just saying, John, there are people that, that care, but they, they do think they can change you. Right. And, and that, that's a, that's a, that's a theological thing that, you know, the average person, you know, just doesn't understand that it takes God to transform people. The majority of people believe that we can change people, you know? So, um, so I think that I was caught up in that world and, and I, and, you know, half of that world was, uh, was spent in Christian programs. Right. So they were, they were Christian programs. Now people in the biblical counseling world, uh, maybe they know this, maybe they don't, but that, but I would say probably 90%, 95%. I mean, that's just an arbitrary number, but it's very, very high of places that are Christian rehab programs are really just integration programs. That's, that's, that's what they are. They, they, they, and they're, they're probably more skewed to the secular world than Christian. Um, because, um, this is a longer conversation, but you know, this is a, I think a problem that exists because the church as a whole has deferred to that world for so long that people just understand that. Yeah. That's what, that's what you do for addicts. You send them over there where they're going to be told all this stuff about, you know, first it was, they had genetic dispositions, then they had chemical imbalances. Now they have, uh, um, they have, uh, uh, uh, brain issues, you know, their, their neural pathways in their brain are messed up. You know, those are the causes of addiction. And so the church has done that for so long that, um, uh, that, that, that, that, that, that whole world has gotten quite a foothold in being able to say what they say and carry the power that they carry for addressing the addicted. And, you know, the church has to take responsibility for that as a whole. I don't know. I don't know who would be doing that, you know, but church, the people in the church need to understand that that's what's happened. And so I just saw that there's a giant problem as far as you just need to have good Bible believing Christians speaking into this problem. Right. And you need to, some, some, some people would benefit from a place like Freedom Farm where they come and they're, and they're cut off from all the, the everyday things that would, that would cause them so easily to stumble. You know, that influence, I don't like using the word cause, but influence them so easily to stumble, but, um, uh, and have people just speak the truths of the gospel into their lives for a period of time and, and let the, let the, let the Lord do, do what he does to that, uh, with that. I just saw that, that there's such a need for that. Um, that, uh, that when I was here, I literally knew people at other programs that knew me that actually were trying to get me to come over and work for them. And I was like, Hey, the Lord's got me right here. And it's, you know, why would I leave? You know, I'm right here. And, uh, the story of how I eventually became the director really was, you know, I started here as a resident. I started to take on responsibility here. And unfortunately, um, in a lot of rehab programs, um, uh, the people that, that serve are usually peer support. And, uh, there's a lot of turnover because there's a lot of people that go back to the pigsty, you know? So as people would turn over, I would just get new responsibility here. And, uh, eventually, um, you guys ever, you ever heard someone talk about founder syndrome, people that struggle with founder syndrome. So people, James, James knows what I'm talking about. Like people that start a ministry and, you know, ministries are run by your response. You, you, you, you, you answer to a board of directors, right? Like, well, founders, a lot of times they are the board of directors, right? In their own mind. Cause they started it. And there was Steve jobs. And so those guys that started the companies, they don't. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that, that kind of happened to the guy that started this place. You know, he had, he had, you know, he had a vision and no one was going to stop his vision. And the board was like, Hey, we need to do this. He was like, I'm not doing that. Uh, I'm doing what I want to do. And there was like a power move where he said, well, if, uh, if, uh, you guys are going to basically, you know, I'm, I'm ad-libbing a lot of this, you know, basically it was like, if you guys aren't going to let me do what I'm going to do, you figure it out. And I think he thought that if he kind of moved back, they would call him back and say, Hey, Hey, Hey. But what they ended up doing was they, they, they let him move back and then they, they empowered me to run the program. And, uh, and then they just never, no one ever called him back. And, uh, you know, uh, he, he unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago. Uh, he was an older gentleman and he was in his seventies when he passed away. Um, but, um, you know, I have, I have very fond memories of the guy. Um, uh, you know, uh, in the biblical counseling world, you guys are anybody that, that knows biblical counseling knows Jay Adams and he's got this reputation of being this mover and shaker and, you know, really said hard things that I never met the man. I've seen like two videos of them. Uh, I don't, I, I just hear this, this caricature of him a lot. But, um, but, you know, one of the things I hear people say, some of my professors, you know, uh, it took a guy like that to kind of start a movement like this, you know? And I, I, I described the guy that started Freedom Farm. It took a guy like him to start it only, you know, you can see God's wisdom in starting with him. But when it was time to transition to a new, like, uh, you know, that's where we lost him and I took over. But, um, but, uh, where, where I got involved in the biblical counseling world and, and whatnot, you got to understand when I was at Bible college, uh, they, they, they actually have a degree in psychology there, but it's integrated. Right. Um, and I had, I was an RA there and one of my RA buddies had, had, uh, uh, given me as an RA, a quick scripture reference guide. Um, and, uh, he said, have you ever heard of new thetic counseling, Jim? And I was like, no. And he goes, well, we just use the Bible to counsel people. And that's all I understood. Right. Um, and, uh, you know, I had seen psychiatrists and psychologists, you know, before, and this, this started in my brain way back then where I actually went to the director of the counseling department there and asked him about new thetic counseling. I said, do we teach new thetic counseling here at, at our school? And he said, no, we take the best of both worlds. That's how he explained it to me. And we teach them together. And I was like, oh, and that's, that's about the extent of it. But, but now fast forward, I'm, you know, in, I'm here at freedom farm and I'm running the place. And, uh, you guys, I'm sure aware of the gospel coalition, you know, publication. And one of the guys on our board has his twin brother was the executive director of the gospel coalition. So his twin brother came to town and we had coffee. And that led to an article being written about the opioid epidemic in America. It's like 2015 or, or maybe 16 or something. But anyway, they wrote an article and they included me in it. They interviewed me and I was in this article and the girl that wrote the articles, uh, Sarah Zylstra, she, uh, she said, you know, privately to me, she said, you know, Jim, what do you hope? What do you hope to get out of, you know, this publication? And I said, well, one, I, I hope people see that there are, there are people that are, that are like biblically based trying to help addicts. You know, um, I hope that we get some exposure there, but I also hope I meet other people doing this because I didn't know anybody else. So what ended up happening was that led me to some friends in Minnesota that run a program called redemption house. And they, uh, they were birthed out of John Piper's church over there in Minnesota. And actually Ed Welsh is an advisor to, uh, the redemption house. And so I went and stayed with those guys and met them, became friends. And it was, it was a pretty amazing moment for me. It was like, it's like, Hey, there's three of us, you know, the, the, the director over there and his, and his, uh, and his program manager who are just fantastic guys. And I was like, and then a few months later, uh, Justin, the program manager over there, he calls me and says, Hey, are you going to the addiction connection? Uh, summit. And I said, well, what's that? And he said, it's, it's where you need to go, man. It's our people. So I went to the addiction connection summit, which was the second one they ever had. And, uh, that's where I met Mark Shaw. And that's, that got me like exposed to, you know, uh, over a hundred people that are doing this type of work. And I was like, I met my people. And ever since then, um, actually Mark, Mark Shaw is the one that, that got me into a, uh, a program for a master's of biblical counseling. Um, which is, uh, uh, I was listening to NPR, um, one day and it was about addiction and programs in the United States. And NPR was basically making the case of how, how addiction programs are the wild, wild West. And there needs to be more regulation. And one of their things they said was, is that, you know, you can go to a lot of addiction programs in this country and you will go see a council. That's not even, that's not even licensed to bill insurance companies. That, that, that was the case that they made. So I got this fear that I needed to get credentialed to be able to say that, you know, Freedom Farm has, you know, has legit people counseling. So I looked up, uh, seminaries here and Gordon Conwell offered an integrated program. Um, and I talked to somebody at Gordon Conwell and, uh, um, and then, uh, I found out RTS had a biblical counseling program. Um, but you wouldn't be licensed at the biblical camp. So I called up Mark and I said, Hey man, what, what do you think? I said, uh, I got these two options, but one of them I get licensed and the other one I get, I don't. He said, well, look, Jim, I can understand your fear of wanting to, you know, make sure you have credentials to get, be, you know, bill insurance companies and things like that. He said, but I, I would, I would challenge you to, to, to, to, to think, uh, you know, maybe that world is falling apart. And he says, and I would rather just trust God for your provision. And he says, and he goes, the other thing is, I know, I know you enough to know that you'll go through a master's degree at that program. And you'll, you'll have to sit through hours and hours and hours of classes that you'll just vehemently disagree with. And I said, okay, well, I won't go there. So that's how I ended up in, uh, pursuing a biblical counseling degree. And I believe you're one of your professors is Jim Neuheiser, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jim's a friend, uh, of this. Yeah. Of our podcast. We got to interview him. Oh yeah. I, James has been going through, uh, all of his classes for, through IBCD. Oh, nice. I think the world of Jim Neuheiser, I just think that he's, he's one of, you know, the, the, they say the first generation has passed, you know, most of them have passed on, you know, Bill Goode and, uh, Jay Adams. And, uh, you know, uh, we lost David Pallison, uh, a few years ago. Yeah. And I think, um, of that second generation, Jim Neuheiser is right up there as one of the top guys. I love that man. Yeah. He actually is going to be here in six days. Um, we have a meeting. Um, he's, he's advising our church here on how to start a biblical counseling ministry. So, um, he's coming to our church, uh, at the end of the month of October for our homecoming. So awesome. Yeah. Yeah. We're excited about it. You know, you, you, you mentioned some of those things. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, James. How do I get on this ship? How do I get on this ship to get Jim to come to my church? Come on now. You guys got him going a different way. Come on now. What's going on here? Um, you, you talked about this. This is totally off script. Um, but, uh, I just wanted to throw this out there because I see this all the time going back and forth to work. There's a huge billboard and it's a huge billboard because at this part of this is sort of a selfish request because I just love when you get fired up on the addiction connection podcast. Um, but, uh, there's a huge billboard that says, um, need help with addiction. Try some boxing. Oh, and, uh, and now to push my buttons, John, call this number right now. And this is being advertised to people and you have people driving down the road and their heart is hurting because they have a loved one that's, you know, that's, that's facing addiction. Maybe this can help. Jim, what is, what is suboxone? Okay. Suboxone is a form of buprenorphine. Okay. Buprenorphine is the drug. Um, it's our modern day version of methadone, but it's improved. If you don't know what methadone is, methadone is an opiate. It's a synthetic opiate. Okay. That they gave to people. Um, uh, I think it really became popular. I think you can fact check me is when, when, uh, when people coming back from the Vietnam war and whatnot, um, and you know, there's a lot of heroin and, um, uh, addiction and methadone is a, is a replacement. And, um, so basically it's a synthetic made opiate. You go to a clinic, if you're a heroin addict and you're given methadone, um, which will, will, will stop you from, uh, feeling the withdrawal effects from heroin. Heroin has a really bad withdrawal effects. Like if you are a heroin addict and you stop taking heroin, you, you feel like you get the flu really bad for about a good solid week where you can't eat. You're throwing up. You, you have no energy, your bones hurt, you're sweating, everything it's miserable. Um, but you know, once that's over and then it's over, you know, so heroin, uh, so methadone was a way to, to get people through that, you know, and the idea was you give people methadone and then you taper them down medically. And then once they, once they get to a very, very low dose, then that sickness and everything is, is, is much more manageable. So you get that idea. The problem with methadone is, is that the, the more you take, the more you euphoric you can get. So methadone, like you can take more meth, like if you are, if you, if you are used to an amount of methadone, right? If I'm taking 50 milligrams of methadone and, and then, and, and it doesn't, it doesn't make me feel euphoric or high. If I take 60, I'll, I'll start feeling high again. And if I take, if I get used to that, you know, I build up a tolerance. So, uh, buprenorphine has what's called a ceiling effect. Okay. Um, what that means is, is that once you become tolerant of buprenorphine, like once your body gets used to it, you, you can take as much as you want and you'll never get high again. Okay. But if you stop taking it, you will feel the, uh, withdrawal effects from opiates, right? That that's because it, because buprenorphine is a synthetic opiate. That's what it is. Okay. Um, so, uh, buprenorphine seemed more reasonable to give to people because people that were taking methadone can continue to up their dose and get high. Whereas you cannot do that with buprenorphine. Um, so let's all just be fair. And it is, that is a more effective drug, right? Because once someone I've taken suboxone dozens of times, right. And like when I first started taking, I had no idea why people like this stuff because it didn't do anything to me. All it did was it. I just didn't get sick. I didn't feel high or anything like that, but it wasn't until years later where I had nothing for a couple of weeks. I'd been sober for a couple of weeks where I took suboxone where it got me completely high, you know, um, because I, my tolerance level had, had been reduced. So, um, uh, uh, uh, suboxone, um, is a form of buprenorphine that also includes another drug in it called naloxone. Now naloxone blocks your receptors in your brain from being able to ingest other opiates. So that's another benefit of buprenorphine. If you take suboxone and then try to take illicit opiates, they will not work on you. So you stop people from being able to get high on other drugs. And the person that takes the box on knows that, like they know that I will just be throwing money down the drain because I can buy these drugs off the street and it will not work on me. So that's the idea behind suboxone. There's other forms of buprenorphine. There's one called subutex and there's a new one called sublucade, which is a new form of buprenorphine, which is a one month time released shot. So you get a shot once a month and, um, you get the buprenorphine, uh, in your system. And the, I, I'm pretty sure it has naloxone in it for, in your good for a month. Um, which, you know, in all intents and purposes, if anybody's going to be taking those medications, that one probably sounds like the best one to take because you're not having to go to a clinic on a daily basis to get your drugs. You just take a shot administered by a doctor once a month and that's it, right? Um, you're kind of, you're kind of blocked from being able to use drugs. But the problem is, is that you're not addressing the reason why people are wanting to use drugs anyway, you know? So it, you know, what it is, it's a giant bandaid that people are looking at as a solution. It's not a solution. It's a bandaid, right? Um, there's an infection underneath. You want to talk medical terms, right? If I just put a bandaid over an infection, eventually the infection is going to come out. Um, I'm not going to say it over the air cause I don't want to, I don't want to, but there are ways around the, uh, there's a ways around what it does to your receptors. And if you, if you're a drug addict, like I was, then you know how to get around those things. There are ways to, to, to wipe your receptors clean. And I'm not going to say any more beyond that. But anyway, um, uh, this is the, here, here is the insidiousness of it though. Okay. Everybody here knows Purdue pharma and they've lost this giant lawsuit, multiple and multiple companies. And all this money, billions and billions of dollars has gone to be distributed in the United States, um, from these pharmaceutical companies that made, that made Oxycontin and, uh, and, uh, where, where, you know, just solely responsible. They were responsible for, uh, all these people, uh, having access to these, these drugs that are extremely addictive. So they lost all these lawsuits. Um, but, but, but part of the lawsuits are, so you guys are both from North Carolina. North Carolina is receiving $850 million from the opioid settlements. Okay. And, and there's a hundred counties in North Carolina. Each county has managers that have to apply for some of the $850 million that will be distributed over the next 10 or, I think it's 10 years. They're there, whatever they asked for will be distributed. But guess what? 80, I think it's like 85% of the money request has to go towards Matt therapy, which is medication assisted therapy, which means that, which means that you have to open up buprenorphine clinics and give people this medication. Right. But look, this is, this is how bad it gets that, that medication. I told you that is a once a month, once a month shot sublocate. Guess who makes it? Don't tell me Purdue. Purdue Pharma. Oh my goodness. Hey, let's take responsibility for our problem over here by figuring out a plan that we can make more money off of you. Yeah. Wow. And unfortunately, you know, again, you know, I want to be, I want to try to be compassionate to people that see this problem. I mean, I watched a little thing a friend of mine posted this morning, a nurse practitioner in her town. Um, and she was doing this PSA. She goes, look, I'm going to tell you something. 14 people died last night in our hospital from fentanyl, 14 people. And eight of them were under 15 years old. Okay. This lady was freaking out on social media. And that's, that's a reality. I mean, the, the, the amount of people dying right now is, is astronomical. Right. Oh yeah. I know a deputy, deputy, uh, sheriff here who, you know, was trying to use Narcan on a fentanyl OD and used, they told me, uh, that, that, that the deputies carried two cans of Narcan, one for the person, one for themselves in case they contract and start going into it. And, uh, he got reprimanded because he used both cans of his Narcan on the person because it was highly dangerous to himself. Yeah. So, so when you have people dying, like your deputy friend, right. And when you have, when you're seeing that, and if someone tells you, well, I can give you a drug that'll make it hard for them to get high, you know, you're like, okay, give it to them, you know, because it'll make it hard for them to get high. But, you know, they're not really fully explaining that it is a drug itself. It is actually an opiate. You know, you're not hearing all of that. And if they were to stop taking that drug, they would go through the same, if not worse effects that they would go through. If they stopped taking their, their, their street drug. Right. They don't, they don't really go into that discussion with you. All they hear, all you hear is like, look, your loved one. That's that shooting up heroin. If we give them this drug, then they, that'll make it very hard for them to shoot up heroin and, and they won't get sick. They'll be able to function. Right. So, so there's a lot of people that are excited about that opportunity for people. But what they also don't tell you is that our death rate continues to increase. So even with the accessibility of these drugs, the death rate is going up every year. So is it really benefiting anybody? It doesn't seem like it. I mean, not at all. So, but on the other hand, one of the biggest anomalies to the average person is a drug addict. Like it's so irrational. How do you help these people? Right. Because we've been told that if they go to these meetings and they do these steps and things like that, that is the, that is the best chance that they can get. Whereas most people don't realize that, that, that there's really not a high success rate at all in that, you know, and it, and there never has been right. There never has been. So how that got promoted as like this, that's the, that's the way to get help, you know? And so they're just, it's a giant mess. It's a giant mess. And as people get further and further from confidence that, that God has given us what we need, everything we need for life and godliness, that the scriptures are sufficient. As people get further and further away from that, these problems will get bigger and bigger. That's just, that's just the facts of the matter. And that's what the Bible says, you know? Absolutely. That's awesome. I know we're, we're pushing. Well, it's interesting that you say that. Yeah. It's interesting to say that because we've got one of those clinics here in I was there County, a methadone clinic, and we met with the, the doctor that's in charge of it four years ago, right when I got here five years ago, I met with him and talked with him and I was new to the whole methadone and all that. And I asked him, I said, Hey man, I said, what's the, what's the end goal here? So are we achieving, you know, sobriety? Are we achieving, you know, well, what is it? And he said, Oh, this is their life. Yep. He said, this is, they'll be on this rest of their life. I said, hold on. So you mean there's no way that you're going to tamper this down, get them all. He said, no. He said, why would I do that? He said, this is their life now. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you said that because actually that the methadone programs started off to taper people off and they've now they've bet that is no longer protocol. I've been around, I've been around, I've been in plenty of meetings with people. And I've asked that question every time I say, you know, how long does a patient take methadone or Suboxone? And the answer is always the same as long as they need it. It's always as long as they need it, which yeah, is basically the rest of their life. And if you ask anybody that's ever been on those medications, well, I mean, I'm saying I'm making a lot of general statements, but you know, I run into a lot of people that have prescribed those medications and they all, they'll all tell you the same thing. This is slavery. This is, this is basically slavery, medicated slavery, you know? And they, they don't want to have anything to do with it. Have you guys, you guys seen that, that, that, uh, mini series called dope sick. That's that's out. I'm in the middle of it. Okay. So I don't want to spoil it for you. I don't think I will spoil it for you, but they do a really good job, you know, capturing what happened. Okay. How this stuff happened. But the, the, one of the main characters, Michael Keaton is this, this little town doctor, innocent guy. That's just trying to help people. Right. That gets hooked on it himself. Yeah. I got to that part. Okay. Now what you will see is the solution that they give for Michael Keaton. He goes to multiple rehabs, right? I'm not spoiling the show for you by telling you this. He goes to multiple rehabs and relapses as soon as he gets out because he can't stand the cravings. Right. So he, he, he finds methadone, right? And then he finds suboxone and it's a miracle drug for him. And he has to drive two hours away to get his suboxone because there aren't enough clinics to, to, to support people. So he becomes the town suboxone savior buys a van and he's loading the van up with everybody to go to the suboxone clinic two hours away. And like, and like, basically they make this argument that here, look, this guy's now off, off the pills. He's on this drug, but you won't give him his medical license back because he takes this drug every day. And that's discrimination. So, so the, the show ends up becoming an apology for suboxone. That's what it is. Interesting enough. Like I just told you, who's the, who's got, who's got the latest and greatest form of, of buprenorphine is the, is the people that the show is all about. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's crazy, man. My goodness. Wow. Man, we could go on for the next hour because this stuff gets me, gets me going. Um, but, uh, uh, Jim, maybe we could end with this, maybe some encouraging words to anyone listening who either has, uh, struggling or maybe I'd say probably more likely scenario, someone who has a loved one who is an addict. Yeah. Uh, you know, anybody listening to this, there are, there are people out there on the front lines like myself. You mentioned, uh, the addiction connection podcast that I do with Mark Shaw, the addiction connection organization is just that it's a networking organization for people like me that are doing this type of work. And God is still in the business of transforming hearts. He still is doing it. And he is transforming the addicted into new creations. And he's helping people along the way become new people. Um, so there is hope out there. You can't lose hope. God, God is still faithful. His, his, his word is still active in like a two edged sword getting down into the heart of the issue. So you just, uh, I don't want people to lose hope. If, if there's anybody out there that needs help for a loved one, you know, uh, please reach out freedom, farm ministries.org. That's our website. Um, uh, you can, you can get in touch with us, go to the addiction connection. Um, uh, and there's a list of, of resources out there, uh, of people that can help. So, uh, there, there, there is help out there for your loved ones. Um, but people, like we said earlier in the show, we got to understand God is the one that changes hearts. You know, God can change hearts and he still does. So, yeah. And even on the, uh, addiction connection website, we'll link the addiction connection website, the, the podcast freedom farm website. We'll, we'll link all that to the show notes, but they even have a list of, um, if residential program is, is what do you think is needed? They, they have a list of, of, of, you know, great residential programs from across the country that you can look into the information and, and Jim, uh, freedom farm that it's, you, you mentioned it at the beginning. It's a one year residential program. Um, maybe say one bit about why the one year and do you, do you, you do for men and women? We do. Yeah. Okay. The women's program is much smaller, um, than the men's program. I only have two women there right now, whereas, uh, the men's program, I have 24 right now in our men's program. So, um, but, uh, but the one year, uh, I always like to tell people there's nothing magic about a year. Okay. There's nothing magic about a year, but, um, you know, the more experience someone can get in life, uh, uh, addressing, uh, their besetting sins in a, in a controlled environment, the better, you know, um, for a sin that's created this much havoc in your life, you know, um, some people need to be kind of locked down and have just constant attention, attention, attention because the, the, the only real, uh, way they're going to, to, uh, um, learn, right. How to, how to walk differently is to have the chances to do so. Right. I can't, I can't artificially create that. Uh, what I can do is keep people here for a period of time, um, and giving them the most, the opportunities to do that. You know, life continues to happen for people here and then they're around people that can, as, as they, as they get challenges of life, which is a lot of times where their escape into addiction came from. They didn't know how to deal with life. They didn't know how to incorporate, um, God or his ways into it. So, so they escaped because of failure into, uh, addiction. So you're getting more and more opportunities as life happens here to do that. Um, you know, we, we, we don't kick people out after 12 months. Um, uh, we just want people to commit for a year when they come, you know, just to get out of their mind that they're going anywhere. And, you know, I went to, like I said, at the beginning of the show, I went to a ton of programs, 30 days, 90 days. And all they are is they're, they're a bubble for a little while. You're like in this little bubble and you feel great and you leave after 90 days and then, then reality sets in and it's like, Whoa, you know? Um, so we try to try to try to pop that bubble there. I mean, there's, there's always a sense of a bubble when you're living in a, in a program or something like that, but you try to, uh, you try to ease more easily transition people back into everyday life as much as possible. Right. I can't remember if it was you or CJ that talked about, they can almost sort of predict like clockwork at about the, the two and a half, maybe three month mark. They have someone come in and says, I think I'm good. I think I'm ready to go. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, and then he, whether it was you or CJ began to explain why, you know, you're there, it's not just a 30 days to change a habit. Right. You know, it's 30 days to change a habit, another 60 days to create new habits. And then another couple of months to just get acclimated to life like this, like your new life now. Right. Right. And I, I agree with it a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, the more, the more, the better, you know, the more time, the better, you know, I mean, it's hard enough getting people to commit to a year, you know, but once they get here and they, it's like, Hey, that was a year went by already. That was, that was quick. You know? So, yeah. James, you got anything, any, any last bits or anything? Oh, it's been great talking with you, Jim. And I've really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed hearing your insight. And I think, I hope our listeners get a lot out of this, especially if they've got someone that's struggling with this. I know that in my family, I've got people in my family that are struggling with addictions. John, he shared at the beginning of the show, he's got family. I mean, I think we're in a society right now where everyone's got, knows someone who's struggling with this, this sort of addiction, whether it be drugs, alcohol, sex addictions, whatever it may be. And these are all forms that the Bible addresses of how there's a heart issue that we can, we can go to. And I'm glad I didn't realize you were as close as you were to me. We need to get together and, uh, we can partner and do some stuff, our church with you guys and, uh, help out wherever we can. And so I look forward to meeting with you guys hopefully soon. And, uh, yeah, I'm going to get to meet Jim in person in a, in a couple of weeks at the, uh, in Memphis. Yeah. Great. Are you both going to be there? Memphis? I was going to, but I'm, I'm hoping tonight, uh, tonight they're presenting to the church for me to go to Israel for the, uh, in January with our RFP guys. And so if that, if that gets approved, then I've, I've lost all my time to do anything else. So I won't be able to go. All right. James went last year when it was in North Carolina and I was planning on going and then I had three people in our church go in the hospital different, like in the same week. So I had to cancel that, stay home and, uh, and watched it online. And so this year we've swapped, he's, he's not going to be there, but I'm going to be there with, I'm actually walking. I'm going to be in the ceremony. Oh, okay. Awesome. Yeah. So pretty excited about it. Pretty excited. Jim, thank you so much for your time. And thank you for doing this. I think that I know that we focused on addictions, but I think there was so much said that it's just like helpful for anybody in any, any area of life. You know what? That's the part of the issue that I try to help clarify to people, you know, addiction is not a special problem. You know, it's a, it's a matter of the heart. It's a sin problem. And God's solution for it is the same for all our sin problems, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And, uh, guys, that's it. And until next time to God, not the pastor, be the glory. Thanks for listening to the for freedom podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFP network.org to find more podcasts like this one resources and meetups to encourage you on your journey. Thank you.

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