72. We're Back. Is the Bible enough?

I do not mean to be mean. I do mean to be mad. Those that criticize this kind of preaching, they don't like authority! If you ain't got the King James, you ain't got... Hey, if you don't have a King James, you don't have a Bible. And it'd be surprised. Son, don't go to sleep while I'm talking. Hey, hey, hey, don't you lay your head back. I'm important. I'm somebody. I love you. You know I love you. Have I convinced you I love you? You better nod your head yes, are you? Come on, put it right there. Stay awake and you listen to me. I still believe if you have cold day and healthy, I get my balance with a woman. I'm a preacher. When you got dressed today, you dressed deity. This is the For Freedom Podcast. A podcast that is part of the RFP network that seeks to bring freedom in Christ from the spiritual abuse of legalism. Now here are your hosts, John Holyfield and James Saifert. And so fundamentalism is designed to unpack the idea of authority from Scripture. The problem with that is that that's not the defining principle in Scripture. It is a part of Scripture. But the defining principle in Scripture is love. And now I'm not saying that all men who sit under that teaching will become abusive. But what I'm saying is the ones who are abusive will be drawn to that sort of teaching. I don't want to give people just a list of things they can start doing differently until they have a heart out of which they're going to be doing those things differently. But I think bitterness is different from hurt. I would say that hurt or even abuse does not have to result in bitterness. Welcome, welcome, welcome, everybody. Back to the For Freedom Podcast. And it is good to be back sitting here. I'm John Holyfield sitting with my co-host from another state, another chair, Big James Saifert. What's going on, James? John, welcome back. It is good to be recording with you again. We have had an eventful summer. It's been crazy for both of us, ministry and family and various other things that we've had going on. But God's still good. He's still on the throne. And he's given us grace where we don't deserve it. And he's given us patience to deal with people in ways that we never thought we could have possible in our life. And so, yes, it is good to be back behind the microphone. It is good to be back with you today. We're going to be discussing here later a question that was sent to us. And I hope we can help some people out. It won't be a long episode, but just want to be valuable of your time and let you know sort of what's been going on. John, how has your summer been, if you can remember that far back? Can you tell me some big event things that have happened in your life this summer? No, not really. Good. Good. That's great. We're unusual. So good. Yeah. We went to Pensacola and spent a weekend there and had a good time. You went to Christian College? You went to the Pensacola PCC, the flagship down there? Well, you know. No, we – sorry, I'm yawning. I'm tired. It's been – You went down to see Ruttman, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Ruttman's dead, James. His legacy. Oh, yeah. We were – it had just been busy. Busy, busy, busy. So that's – I mean, that's – I know that could be – can you hear all that? Yeah. Is it really loud? No, it's fine. Just keep going. Okay. Just – my kids are in the other room playing the Wii. So sorry, everybody, if you hear my kids. But, yeah, it's just been a busy summer. And just church life is just, you know, just keeping us going. And God is doing some really cool things. I'm so excited about it. But, yeah. Hey, speaking of the Wii, John, did you recently come in contact with the Nintendo 64? No. You didn't get it? Well, I bought it and I got scammed on eBay. Oh, my. And so then I had to wait for eBay to refund my money. But, no. I was just disappointed, John. I was excited to hear about you playing Gold 9 and all that good stuff. Oh, I have been. I found a way to do it on the computer and I got me like a little – it's like an N64 controller that plugs into your laptop. Nice. Yeah. So – It's awesome. Yeah. Sorry. You know what? You know what? I fell in a rabbit hole of this thing. I know that people love to hear about this. I fell in a rabbit hole. There are actually game developers out there that have taken the template of Gold 9 and taken former James Bond movies and made complete games. No way. Yes. No. It's so cool. So they've got one on The Spy Who Loved Me. They got one on The Tomorrow Never Dies, the movie that came out after Gold 9. And they got one on the Sean Connery movie Goldfinger. And there's currently – they're working on one for the Timothy Dalton Living Daylights. Oh, my goodness. And it's just like playing Gold 9 just with different missions. That is awesome. I know. You've got to hook me up with this. This is going to be great. We're going to – oh, man. Well, this is what me and John's life is. I've had as well a busy summer. We have been straight in ministry. We were in California. We had back-to-back camps. We had vacation Bible school. It's been very busy for us. But school has started back for my family. And so my schedule has opened back up a little bit. And we are excited about what God's got in store for our lives and our family. Just continue to pray for us. Hey, you did come and see me. I did. I was with John for a day. For a day. And you taught me a really cool card game. Yeah. We went to – You called me an idiot. Yeah. We went to Dollywood for my son's birthday. And then I said, Allie, it was actually on my son's birthday. And I gave him a choice. I said, Brody, I said, do you want to stay in Dollywood for another day? Or do you want to go see Uncle John on your birthday? And his choice was he wanted to go see Uncle John on his birthday. And so we drove an extra couple hours, went to a Buc-ee's. Some of you guys saw that on the RFP fan page. And then spent the night with John and his family and my family. And then we had a great time there. So, yeah, it was good. It was a good time. And glad to be home and glad to get back into routine. I'm a routine guy. I do not let my routine messed up. So, John, we've got some great things coming up for this next season of the podcast. It has been a great break. Just a couple of weeks ago, we were able to fill in for the RFP, the main guys podcast. Us and the Young Baptist partnered together and did a phenomenal episode. Probably the best episode that's ever been recorded in the history of podcast episodes. Yeah, don't you love how after we do that, they do an interview with John Cooper? Man, that was just, I think they did that just on purpose because they knew we were going to. Yeah, that was a punch to the gut, youth and culture. Yeah, it was. Hey, but go over there and listen to that. And just so you can know, we have lined up the youth and culture. We've lined up Growing Grace. And we've lined up Beers and Bibles for a wonderful crossover event. Three different episodes that we're going to be doing. We're going to continue that crossover series that we did and have those guys and girls on. And that's going to all lead up to, John, what big events coming up in November? Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, the time where we get to eat and celebrate our gluttony. And that is what we are looking forward to. For the sake of the gospel conference with the RFP family and the RFP network is going to be there. And so this is going to be the first ever conference with the Recovering Fundamentalist podcast. And so we're looking forward to it. It's going to be a Thursday evening, Friday, and then Saturday morning. And so the lineup is going to be our Recovering Fundamentalist podcast host, Nathan Cravat. And then Jared Wilson, author Jared Wilson. And I think he's a professor at Midwestern Seminary in Kansas City, are going to be preaching the first night. We're going to have worship music with Hope Worship. And then also J.J. Weeks Band is going to be there. And so then you're going to have J.C. Groves and Mark Milioni preach. And then we're going to have on Friday evening, Brian Edwards and Craig Edwards preaching. And we're going to have some breakout sessions with the RFP network involved. And I think Saturday morning, if those can stay for Saturday morning, they're going to have sort of a live, I think, event with Stephen Boyce, Dr. Stephen Boyce and Jonathan Beasley. And I don't know. I've sort of they did that episode on RFP. And I've downloaded Stephen Boyce's podcast, Facts. And I've been listening to that stuff. One of my things that I just absolutely love to just, you know, side hobbies is canonicity of scripture. And so I really enjoy listening to his stuff on that. But, yeah, so it's $50. We want you to register. You go to RFP.org and you can find the registration from that page. It's $50. $50 for the registration. You come and worship with us. Have a good time. And I know you're going to be edified and lifted up there. Yeah. And when we say conference, a lot of times we get this mysticism that we're going to come and it's going to be like a meetup feel. We're going to be there. We're going to hang out. We're all going to be together. What we want to do is we want to bring our recording equipment and we're going to try to record some of you guys, some of your stories. We really enjoyed doing that in Missouri. And so we hope we can get a couple of good interviews lined up while we're there during some lunch or dinner sessions. And so it's going to be a great time. Hopefully you'll come join us for that. And I'm looking forward to spending a couple of days with John, spending a couple of days with the network and enjoying that time there. Well, we have changed some of the roles here on the podcast coming up. John, with his business of pastoring and family and John's bivocational, so he's not full time at the church. And so his time with counseling has gotten away from him. So what we're going to be doing is we're flipping roles. And I am going to begin doing all of the behind the scenes legwork, lining up interviews, going through the show notes, editing and producing the episodes. And John is going to be my co-host. No, I'm still going to be the co-host. John's the brainchild of all this. But we are going to reverse this a little bit. So in doing that, like I said earlier, we've lined up the crossover episodes. We are lining up for next week for our next recording. We're going to be recording with Jonathan Smith out of Faith Lafayette Biblical Counseling Coalition up there. And we're doing an interview with him called Are You Hooked? And Hooked on Social Media and How to Become Unhooked from Social Media. And so it's going to be a great episode. We hope you'll tune into that. And he's doing some great stuff with NASA and other things. We're going to be talking through some topics of worry, anxiety, fear, just some basic counseling stuff. And we've got some other interviews that we're looking at with possibly – well, I'm not going to mention their names because we haven't confirmed them. But we do have some of those guys that we're working on trying to get them lined up. But today, John, we were presented a question. And we do love your response. We love your feedback. And so we're going to jump right into it today. Well, one of the last episodes we did before we took our break was on biblical counseling. Like what is biblical counseling and sort of breaking some of those things down. And so we had somebody did send something, pushback. I got permission from them to sort of talk about this. And I do understand that they're not here to sort of – I mean this is going to be us responding to this pushback. But at the same time, they're not going to be here to add feedback to it. So we want to be as kind and courteous as we can and not sort of just run away with it. But basically saying that the area that – they agreed a little bit with biblical counseling. They agreed with the sufficiency of Scripture. But they sort of take a more integrated approach. And he said the area that they would push back on what we said is in the way that we express the sufficiency of Scripture. I absolutely believe and stand for the sufficiency of Scripture. However, while the Bible is absolutely sufficient for everything it addresses, there are many things that God did not place in Scripture and leaves man to study and come up with answers. For example, sufficiency of Scripture doesn't mean that you can read the Bible to become a cardiac surgeon or a computer engineer. And I would view the human brain in the same way. There are many areas where the Bible simply doesn't give the answer to many psychological problems or phenomena. For those, a good study of psychology is necessary to provide many aspects of counseling that are not in Scripture. Now, having said that, I absolutely appreciate anybody who studies and seeks to counsel people who need it. So, John, I'm a pastor, and I often counsel people likely in the same way that you would from Scripture. However, understanding the human mind, its influences, health, and sociological factors, and more integrated, hence the term, with revelation of Scripture, I believe can provide a more well-rounded counseling approach. Love to hear your thoughts. All right, so number one, I can tend to be a little bit excited, polemical, maybe, in this area. So if I come across too strong, forgive me. I just do because I'm very passionate about this subject. And there are certain aspects of what he said that I think maybe he misunderstood us a little bit because we do believe in the belief of common grace, right? That God has given common grace to everybody to observe truth in his creation. We don't believe that doctors or surgeons that study medicine and study the body have to be believers. We don't believe that every scientist can make a true observation about creation but must be a believer. Therefore, when it comes to psychology, can unbelievers make true observations about the human condition? And the answer we would say would be yes. The problem with it is that you have to understand that they're interpreting that information after they observe it through a worldview grid that is devoid of God and devoid of the effects of the fall on humanity. Therefore, the aspects that they're coming away with and the solutions that they're coming away with are very much marred and flawed and, in some cases, unbiblical. James, do you have anything to add before I move on? Yeah, well, as we talk through this, really, I want to break this question down into two separate questions. The first, can Scripture help us become a surgeon? And I think you addressed that well. Scripture cannot help you become, in the sense of, it cannot teach you to be a space explorationist. It cannot teach you to be a brain surgeon. But what it does, it gives us the foundation for what, like you said, your worldview. It gives us the foundation for what we can build our life on. And so that's what we're saying when it comes to the sufficiency of Scripture in this sense is, yes, there is that common grace, John. And yes, there is this thought of we can observe nature. And, I mean, Romans simply says that a leader can observe nature and observe the glory that God created through things. And so there is the common grace aspect that builds on the foundation of this. So, yes, to answer your question, the Bible can, you cannot study the Bible and become a cardiologist surgeon. The Bible's not going to teach you how to open up someone's body, suture it back together, and become a cardiologist in that sense. But what it can do is it can help you when you actually do become that cardiologist. You're going to be able to help those patients so much greater with just your spiritual application in their lives. I don't know how many people that I've talked to, even in our church, that have had cancer situations or brain surgery. And they said, you know, my doctor had this awesome opportunity where they said, hey, I'm a believer. I believe in Jesus, and I believe in prayer. And so I'm going to spend this time, if it's okay with you, to pray with you and pray over you. And they were able to take this gift that God gave them to become a surgeon and use it for God's honor and glory. And I think that's where we get this view of Scripture and how it can be sufficient in all areas. Okay, so what we believe is that the Bible is sufficient, and I know this can be triggering to some IFB people, those who come out of the IFB. But we believe the Bible is sufficient for all matters of life and practice, faith and practice. That is not a bad stance to be. That is a biblical stance to be because we see that the Bible is sufficient for life. And I think one matter of this subject, this conversation, comes down with how you view the makeup of a man. Is man a trichotomy or is man a dichotomy? So what do you mean by that? Well, is man made up of body, soul, and spirit, or is man made up of body, soul, spirit? Didn't you just say the same thing? No, I didn't. So there are many who believe that man is made up of body, soul, and spirit, that you need medical doctors to take care of the body. You need spiritual matters and people who are Christians and have care and discipleship to take care of the spirit, and that you need psychologists to take care of the soul. All right? I would disagree with that emphatically. Say that man is a dichotomy, and that means that man is a body and man is soul or spirit. Okay? Meaning soul or spirit. I believe when you go to Scripture, Old Testament and new, and you do a deep dive into this, you find out that when the words soul and spirit are used to describe man and his makeup, they are used interchangeably. Therefore, man is a dichotomy. So we are given those with medical practice and medical knowledge to help with the body, but we're given God's word and the Holy Spirit to help with the soul or the spirit. Now, I don't have a problem in the world with psychology, James. I don't have a problem in the world with psychology. I think psychology should stay in their lane. I think psychology should be scientists who study the brain. However, they don't stay in their lane. They actually will take their observations and study the brain, and then they start to go out there and make interpretations of those and then try to say, you know, do this and this. And that's where I have an issue with. That's where we butt heads because I believe that we have the solutions for man. What is man and what is man's greatest need? And I believe we have that. Now, when it comes to – I think there's also a misunderstanding. The culture as a whole has been so wholly accepting of this practice without any question or pushback. And I think the understanding, the common understanding of what we actually know about the human brain is so small, so small. It is – you think about the vastness of the ocean, right, the vastness of the ocean. You think about how much we have explored and studied the – like and found out about the ocean. And whenever you realize how much ocean there is and how much we've actually been able to explore, it's like less than 10%. Yeah. It's minute. Very, very much so. And I think the same has been done with the brain. I think because of different things in our culture today, people think that we've got the brain figured out. It's not even close. Well, how many times John has – and we just recently had this in our county. We had a young lady who was a teenager going into high school. She was going to her ninth grade year. It was the summer before last. She had a four-year accident. She was on the back of it. It flipped over. She landed on her head, and it was touch and go for a long time. And this was – I can remember one of the reports that the doctor said, we've seen this happen before. We know that she's going to survive. We just don't know how much her actual brain is going to come back to wholeness. Okay. They've observed it. They've seen it. They've studied it. But they cannot tell you how much this is going to come back because we don't understand how the brain operates and how the brain repairs itself. We know when we cut a piece of skin on our body how it's going to repair itself. We can observe it because it's physical. But the brain is something that we cannot observe in that sense, and I think that's what you're getting at. Well, the reason is is because in order to study the brain, you have to take pieces, samples of it. You have to cut into it. But what we know is that whenever you do that, you're causing brain damage to the person. Yeah. So the only type of brain study that – and that's considered very inhumane, right? Yeah. So the only study that's been able to have been done on that is postmortem. But that even right there is a big hindrance to that because we're able – like there's no life going on in the brain of what's going on. Yeah. A big – a huge misconception that is out there to give an example of what I'm talking about here. I could talk about the DSM. I could talk about this. But think about this, James. What is a theory? A theory is something that someone has wrote out they think is going to happen, but yet it's not proven to be exact. Exactly. Exactly. A theory is something, an idea or concept that somebody comes up with that has not been proven. Now, there are two possible results for a theory, right? A theory could be proven true or a theory could be proven untrue. But until either of those happens, it's still a theory. All right? Here's what happens so many times in our culture. A theory is placed out there, and because there's money to be made on a theory – I know you guys are going to be like, oh, he's gone into conspiracy theorists. He's gone fundamentalist. Listen to me because I'm telling you the truth here. Because there's money to be made on a theory, it is presented to the culture as scientific fact. Case in point, have you ever heard, James, of someone saying that there are many people who have chemical imbalances? Oh, yeah. Lots of times. Okay. This is the theory. It was originated in the 50s. The theory is that the reason that a lot of people suffer from depression or even later on in the 70s, anxiety was thrown in there and schizophrenia was thrown in there was because there are imbalances in chemicals of the brain, whether it be norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin. With depression, it was a serotonin deficiency. Okay? That was the theory. Through the use of pharmaceutical medicines and pharmaceutical drugs and big pharmacy companies, now that theory has become cultural fact. People believe that the chemical imbalance idea is fact. Some people just have a chemical imbalance. Why did somebody go shoot up a theater? Why did somebody go shoot up a school? Well, they have a chemical imbalance. There's something wrong in their mind. Okay? I'm going to recommend a book for you, for our listeners. Go read The Chemical Imbalance Delusion by Dr. Daniel Berger. This guy does not quote a Christian once in this book. He only quotes secular psychologists. This theory has been proven false. It never existed. We do not have a chemical. There is not a single person that has a chemical imbalance. And the idea is that in order for you to have a chemical imbalance, there must be a balance of what those chemicals should be. They've never been able to figure out and test that standard. In fact, their best scientific studies to this day have concluded that probably every single person has a different balance of chemicals than the next person. Yeah. But they have no idea what that balance is. So how can you know if somebody has an imbalance of something if you cannot test or gauge the balance of something? Now, here's the other idea. Let's say if somebody did have an imbalance, how would you determine and confirm that they would have an imbalance? Scientifically, you'd take a sample. Right? Yeah. But there's no test to do that because to do that, you'd have to drill into the brain and take a biopsy of the brain and try to test those chemicals. That is illegal. It's called a lobotomy, and you cannot practice that anymore. So there's no way, number one, to determine whether there is what the balance is, and there's no way to confirm that you have an imbalance. So what happens is people go to doctors, and they say, I'm struggling with depression. Well, maybe you have a chemical imbalance. Write you a prescription because they have a prescription pad. In fact, you want to talk about secular psychology. Many therapists and secular psychologists are angry at medical doctors because they're so quick to prescribe medicine to people for chemical imbalances. Yeah. And they don't even have training in psychology. But they have a script pad so they can do it. Okay? I know I get a little bit heated about this stuff because here's what happens. They get up and people start taking medicine that actually is messing with the chemical makeup of their brain. And there's a long discussion we can have going into what that does. But let me go to this aspect. What about the DSM? Right? The DSM is supposed to be the psychology Bible that we find such great information about diagnosis. Right? They're in the DSM-5, I think, right now, and they're working on the DSM-6. Okay? I just got through reading a book by Vander Kolk on The Body Keeps the Score on Trauma. He's not a believer. He's not a believer. He's not a Christian. But one of his biggest complaints about the DSM is they had some times where they were trying to present evidence and studies of a diagnosis of trauma, and the DSM rejected it. Hmm. Because it was a political motivation of changing it. Yeah. And there was too much money to be made on the DSM. And then he records how much money is made each time they put out a DSM. And it's a huge – I mean, multi, multi-millions of dollars that they bring in from publishing a DSM. And so here's – think about this. In the DSM-1, homosexuality was considered a disorder. Hmm. Now it's completely changed, and it's no longer seen as a disorder but should be accepted. I wonder why that is. It's not science. It's culture. Well, and it goes back, John. What is their foundation? What is their worldview? What is their worldview? Where are they basing all of their information from? And if you're basing it from culture, if you're basing it from where there's money to be made, all of a sudden, now we turn into, well, this isn't culturally accepted anymore, so we've got to change the standard. God's Word doesn't change the standard. God's Word never changes. It's the same yesterday, today, and forever. Exactly right. The DSM is always changing. Yeah. One of the things I love and I'm reading right now was given to me by a friend of mine, William Berger, a Puritan reformer. And some of the things that he's saying as he's going through his life, this was in the 1500s, are applicable today because it's Scripture. I'm reading the same Scripture, and I'm getting the same application. I'm getting the same theology from it because Scripture doesn't change. Now, I would dare say, John, if I went and I read a 1500, which there wouldn't have been a psychology back in the 1500s, but if there would have been a psychology manual in the 1500s, would it be the exact same today as it was 500, 600 years ago? No. No, because here's the thing. Not only has the DSM changed, but the DSM's changing is more influenced many times by culture than it is science. Yeah. So I asked the question, what could possibly, because of culture, wind up on the DSM in the future as a disorder? That's something Christians need to think about. Yeah. And, you know, this aspect of it changing, the Bible does not change, like you said. Scripture doesn't change. Okay? And think about it this way, James. Many of what's considered psychological problems and phenomena are observations made by unbelievers with an unbiblical worldview who have no grid to interpret the fall of man, the fall's effects on creation, sin. And so they're trying to interpret the problems and phenomena they see without that kind of grid. Now, a critic may say, well, are you saying that everybody's problem is sin? Yes and no. No, I'm not saying that everybody that sits in the counseling room that their problem is that they just need to repent of their sin. Now, some do. But in a sense, yes, I am saying that everybody's problem is the sin. Because when you look at the effect of the fall on all of creation, Romans 8 says that all of creation groaned. Yeah. It is only through a biblical worldview that we understand, here it is, man and man's greatest need. Yeah. I mean, I could go on for a long time on this, but I think that I appreciate the listeners' sort of concern. And I think that maybe I can come across a little bit too harsh on the subject, but I mean, what it is is I do believe that there are observations that we can learn. All right? There are observations that we can glean from about the human condition. But I think we've got to be very discerning, and we've got to be very skeptical about where it goes from there. Yeah. And I think really what it gets down to, and we've said this several times, we say this often here, when we begin dealing with the issues of someone's life, anorexia, anxiety, depression, we've got to get to the heart of the problem. And that's what scripture does. Scripture gets to the heart of the problem that's dealing with someone's life, where psychology just wants to fix it and give them a pill and move on. Well, in a nutshell, I'm saying in a nutshell. I would say that one of my complaints is similar to what you just said, but I don't want to lump all of them in. Yeah. There are many out there that genuinely are trying to help people, but I think that they've been misled. But what our goal is, as counselors, biblical counselors, we want to get to the heart of the problem. We want to use scripture and say, okay, how did Jesus deal with this situation? How did Jesus get to the heart of this problem and solve it from that side of the view? And so that's sort of where we're at. So I told you we wouldn't be long. We just wanted to give a basic talk and go through this, and then we'll begin some of these interviews and some of the other things coming up. And so we're excited about what we've got for the future of the For Freedom podcast and what God is doing here. If you have other comments, if you have other questions, if we've said something in the past that you want to question or push back on, we welcome that. We want you to ask those things. And so... Just may take us a while to get to the response. Best is John. Message myself, and we'll get to it on all of our socials. And you can email us as well. You can go to our website, For Freedom Ministries, forfreedompodcast.com. And we will... Our emails are there. You can reach out to us in that way as well. And we would love to discuss some of these issues. And we're hoping we're going to get to a lot of them as we go through here in this next season of the podcast. And John, anything else from you? Nope. Nope. Okay. To God be the glory. That's right. To God, not the... To God, not the pastor. Be the glory. Thanks for listening to the For Freedom Podcast. To find more content like this, please visit RFPNetwork.org. To find more podcasts like this one, resources, and meetups to encourage you on your journey. 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